Re: Afterlife

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Obviously these are simplistic things to help people of that time understand
things that cannot be understood whilst in this world.
The emphasis in Bahai is to exert our efforts to people to develop these
qualities - the spiritual arms and legs of the next world.



On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  I don't watch 700 Club so I wouldn't know. I just assumed that everyone
> who was a Christian, Muslim, Sufi, Baha'i, etc. believed that heaven
> symbolized a metaphysical dimension or plane of existence where good souls
> go after death and hell for evil souls.
>
>  --
> *From:* Adib Masumian 
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Wed, November 3, 2010 4:18:04 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Afterlife
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> >No one believes in a literal fluffy cloud heaven or literal underworld.
>
> I don't know if I would go so far as to say nobody. I just have to change
> the channel to the 700 club or take a stroll around the hotspots at my
> university, which ironically is liberal, to find all kinds of people who
> really do believe in a literalist depiction of heaven and hell. And those
> are of course just representative of a much larger demographic who probably
> go to Bible camps or other venues where they could potentially be
> indoctrinated with literalist interpretations of scripture.
>
> >I would say dimensions, planes of existence, etc. are ways to describe
> what people believe in
>
> No argument there, since I don't think believing in a literal
> interpretation of heaven or hell and considering them to be dimensions or
> planes of existence are mutually exclusive beliefs. I don't think you'll
> find a Christian or Muslim who doesn't believe that heaven and hell are
> planes of existence in one way or another.
>
> >What exactly defines the difference between literalism and symbolisism.
>
> I think it lies in the original text and what is then done with that text.
> If there's a statement in a religious scripture that depicts heaven as a
> fluffy paradise with streams of milk and honey, taking that description at
> face value and believing it, to the letter, to be the reality of that place,
> constitutes a literalist interpretation. If, however, allegorical
> hermeneutics (the kind the Baha'i Faith uses) is applied to that original
> text so that its definition is meant to be viewed through a symbolic lens,
> that constitutes symbolism.
>
> Best,
> Adib
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
>>
>>
>> The Bahá'í Faith <http://wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith> regards the
>> conventional description of heaven (and hell) as a specific place as
>> symbolic. The Bahá'í writings 
>> <http://wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_literature>describe heaven as a "spiritual 
>> condition" where closeness to God is defined
>> as heaven; conversely hell <http://wiki/Hell> is seen as a state of
>> remoteness from God. Bahá'u'lláh <http://wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h>,
>> the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, has stated that the nature of the life of
>> the soul in the afterlife is beyond comprehension in the physical plane, but
>> has stated that the soul will retain its consciousness and individuality and
>> remember its physical life; the soul will be able to recognize other souls
>> and communicate with 
>> them.[9]<http://us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=504.5&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8>
>>
>> For Bahá'ís, entry into the next life has the potential to bring great
>> joy.[9]<http://us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=504.5&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8>Bahá'u'lláh
>>  likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world
>> beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that
>> of the child while still in the womb <http://wiki/Womb> of its mother."[
>> 10]<http://us.mg2.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=504.5&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-gwb-9>The
>>  analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly
>> existence: just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's
>> initial physical development, the physical world provides for the
>> development of the 

Re: Afterlife

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't watch 700 Club so I wouldn't know. I just assumed that everyone who was 
a Christian, Muslim, Sufi, Baha'i, etc. believed that heaven symbolized a 
metaphysical dimension or plane of existence where good souls go after death 
and 
hell for evil souls. 






From: Adib Masumian 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 4:18:04 PM
Subject: Re: Afterlife


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>No one believes in a literal fluffy cloud heaven or literal underworld. 

I don't know if I would go so far as to say nobody. I just have to change the 
channel to the 700 club or take a stroll around the hotspots at my university, 
which ironically is liberal, to find all kinds of people who really do believe 
in a literalist depiction of heaven and hell. And those are of course just 
representative of a much larger demographic who probably go to Bible camps or 
other venues where they could potentially be indoctrinated with literalist 
interpretations of scripture.

>I would say dimensions, planes of existence, etc. are ways to describe what 
>people believe in
No argument there, since I don't think believing in a literal interpretation of 
heaven or hell and considering them to be dimensions or planes of existence are 
mutually exclusive beliefs. I don't think you'll find a Christian or Muslim who 
doesn't believe that heaven and hell are planes of existence in one way or 
another. 


>What exactly defines the difference between literalism and symbolisism.

I think it lies in the original text and what is then done with that text. If 
there's a statement in a religious scripture that depicts heaven as a fluffy 
paradise with streams of milk and honey, taking that description at face value 
and believing it, to the letter, to be the reality of that place, constitutes a 
literalist interpretation. If, however, allegorical hermeneutics (the kind the 
Baha'i Faith uses) is applied to that original text so that its definition is 
meant to be viewed through a symbolic lens, that constitutes symbolism.

Best,
Adib



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
>
>The Bahá'í Faith regards the conventional description of heaven (and hell) as 
>a 
>specific place as symbolic. The Bahá'í writings describe heaven as a 
>"spiritual 
>condition" where closeness to God is defined as heaven; conversely hell is 
>seen 
>as a state of remoteness from God. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í 
>Faith, 
>has stated that the nature of the life of the soul in the afterlife is beyond 
>comprehension in the physical plane, but has stated that the soul will retain 
>its consciousness and individuality and remember its physical life; the soul 
>will be able to recognize other souls and communicate with them.[9]
>For Bahá'ís, entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy.[9] 
>Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world 
>beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of 
>the child while still in the womb of its mother."[10] The analogy to the womb 
>in 
>many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence: just as the womb 
>constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, 
>the 
>physical world provides for the development of the individual soul. 
>Accordingly, 
>Bahá'ís view life as a preparatory stage, where one can develop and perfect 
>those qualities which will be needed in the next life.[9] The key to spiritual 
>progress is to follow the path outlined by the current Manifestations of God, 
>which Bahá'ís believe is currently Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'lláh wrote, "Know thou, 
>of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, 
>assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved."[11]
>The Bahá'í teachings state that there exists a hierarchy of souls in the 
>afterlife, where the merits of each soul determines their place in the 
>hierarchy, and that souls lower in the hierarchy cannot completely understand 
>the station of those above. Each soul can continue to progress in the 
>afterlife, 
>but the soul's development is not entirely dependent on its own conscious 
>efforts, the nature of which we are not aware, but also augmented by the grace 
>of God, the prayers of others, and good deeds performed by others on Earth in 
>the name of that person.[9]
> 
>The Bahá'í Faith regards the conventional description of Hell (and heaven) as 
>a 
>speci

Re: Afterlife

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, it's worth noting that symbolic interpretation is standard in Judaism.





From: Stephen Gray 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 4:26:21 PM
Subject: Re: Afterlife


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, I consider these place as metaphysical as opposed to some who believe in 
a 
literal re-bodying. 






From: Adib Masumian 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 4:18:04 PM
Subject: Re: Afterlife


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>No one believes in a literal fluffy cloud heaven or literal underworld. 

I don't know if I would go so far as to say nobody. I just have to change the 
channel to the 700 club or take a stroll around the hotspots at my university, 
which ironically is liberal, to find all kinds of people who really do believe 
in a literalist depiction of heaven and hell. And those are of course just 
representative of a much larger demographic who probably go to Bible camps or 
other venues where they could potentially be indoctrinated with literalist 
interpretations of scripture.

>I would say dimensions, planes of existence, etc. are ways to describe what 
>people believe in
No argument there, since I don't think believing in a literal interpretation of 
heaven or hell and considering them to be dimensions or planes of existence are 
mutually exclusive beliefs. I don't think you'll find a Christian or Muslim who 
doesn't believe that heaven and hell are planes of existence in one way or 
another. 


>What exactly defines the difference between literalism and symbolisism.

I think it lies in the original text and what is then done with that text. If 
there's a statement in a religious scripture that depicts heaven as a fluffy 
paradise with streams of milk and honey, taking that description at face value 
and believing it, to the letter, to be the reality of that place, constitutes a 
literalist interpretation. If, however, allegorical hermeneutics (the kind the 
Baha'i Faith uses) is applied to that original text so that its definition is 
meant to be viewed through a symbolic lens, that constitutes symbolism.

Best,
Adib



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
>
>The Bahá'í Faith regards the conventional description of heaven (and hell) as 
>a 
>specific place as symbolic. The Bahá'í writings describe heaven as a 
>"spiritual 
>condition" where closeness to God is defined as heaven; conversely hell is 
>seen 
>as a state of remoteness from God. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í 
>Faith, 
>has stated that the nature of the life of the soul in the afterlife is beyond 
>comprehension in the physical plane, but has stated that the soul will retain 
>its consciousness and individuality and remember its physical life; the soul 
>will be able to recognize other souls and communicate with them.[9]
>For Bahá'ís, entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy.[9] 
>Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world 
>beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of 
>the child while still in the womb of its mother."[10] The analogy to the womb 
>in 
>many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence: just as the womb 
>constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, 
>the 
>physical world provides for the development of the individual soul. 
>Accordingly, 
>Bahá'ís view life as a preparatory stage, where one can develop and perfect 
>those qualities which will be needed in the next life.[9] The key to spiritual 
>progress is to follow the path outlined by the current Manifestations of God, 
>which Bahá'ís believe is currently Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'lláh wrote, "Know thou, 
>of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, 
>assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved."[11]
>The Bahá'í teachings state that there exists a hierarchy of souls in the 
>afterlife, where the merits of each soul determines their place in the 
>hierarchy, and that souls lower in the hierarchy cannot completely understand 
>the station of those above. Each soul can continue to progress in the 
>afterlife, 
>but the soul's development is not entirely dependent on its own conscious 
>efforts, the nature of which we are not aware, but also augmented by the grace 
>of God, the prayers of others, and good deeds performed by others on Earth in 
>the name of that person.[9]
> 
>The Bahá

Re: Afterlife

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, I consider these place as metaphysical as opposed to some who believe in 
a 
literal re-bodying. 






From: Adib Masumian 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 4:18:04 PM
Subject: Re: Afterlife


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>No one believes in a literal fluffy cloud heaven or literal underworld. 

I don't know if I would go so far as to say nobody. I just have to change the 
channel to the 700 club or take a stroll around the hotspots at my university, 
which ironically is liberal, to find all kinds of people who really do believe 
in a literalist depiction of heaven and hell. And those are of course just 
representative of a much larger demographic who probably go to Bible camps or 
other venues where they could potentially be indoctrinated with literalist 
interpretations of scripture.

>I would say dimensions, planes of existence, etc. are ways to describe what 
>people believe in
No argument there, since I don't think believing in a literal interpretation of 
heaven or hell and considering them to be dimensions or planes of existence are 
mutually exclusive beliefs. I don't think you'll find a Christian or Muslim who 
doesn't believe that heaven and hell are planes of existence in one way or 
another. 


>What exactly defines the difference between literalism and symbolisism.

I think it lies in the original text and what is then done with that text. If 
there's a statement in a religious scripture that depicts heaven as a fluffy 
paradise with streams of milk and honey, taking that description at face value 
and believing it, to the letter, to be the reality of that place, constitutes a 
literalist interpretation. If, however, allegorical hermeneutics (the kind the 
Baha'i Faith uses) is applied to that original text so that its definition is 
meant to be viewed through a symbolic lens, that constitutes symbolism.

Best,
Adib



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
>
>The Bahá'í Faith regards the conventional description of heaven (and hell) as 
>a 
>specific place as symbolic. The Bahá'í writings describe heaven as a 
>"spiritual 
>condition" where closeness to God is defined as heaven; conversely hell is 
>seen 
>as a state of remoteness from God. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í 
>Faith, 
>has stated that the nature of the life of the soul in the afterlife is beyond 
>comprehension in the physical plane, but has stated that the soul will retain 
>its consciousness and individuality and remember its physical life; the soul 
>will be able to recognize other souls and communicate with them.[9]
>For Bahá'ís, entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy.[9] 
>Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world 
>beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of 
>the child while still in the womb of its mother."[10] The analogy to the womb 
>in 
>many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence: just as the womb 
>constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, 
>the 
>physical world provides for the development of the individual soul. 
>Accordingly, 
>Bahá'ís view life as a preparatory stage, where one can develop and perfect 
>those qualities which will be needed in the next life.[9] The key to spiritual 
>progress is to follow the path outlined by the current Manifestations of God, 
>which Bahá'ís believe is currently Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'lláh wrote, "Know thou, 
>of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, 
>assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved."[11]
>The Bahá'í teachings state that there exists a hierarchy of souls in the 
>afterlife, where the merits of each soul determines their place in the 
>hierarchy, and that souls lower in the hierarchy cannot completely understand 
>the station of those above. Each soul can continue to progress in the 
>afterlife, 
>but the soul's development is not entirely dependent on its own conscious 
>efforts, the nature of which we are not aware, but also augmented by the grace 
>of God, the prayers of others, and good deeds performed by others on Earth in 
>the name of that person.[9]
> 
>The Bahá'í Faith regards the conventional description of Hell (and heaven) as 
>a 
>specific place as symbolic.[34] Instead the Bahá'í writings describe Hell as a 
>"spiritual condition" where remoteness from God is defined as Hell; convers

Re: Afterlife

[Adib Masumian]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>No one believes in a literal fluffy cloud heaven or literal underworld.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say nobody. I just have to change
the channel to the 700 club or take a stroll around the hotspots at my
university, which ironically is liberal, to find all kinds of people who
really do believe in a literalist depiction of heaven and hell. And those
are of course just representative of a much larger demographic who probably
go to Bible camps or other venues where they could potentially be
indoctrinated with literalist interpretations of scripture.

>I would say dimensions, planes of existence, etc. are ways to describe what
people believe in

No argument there, since I don't think believing in a literal interpretation
of heaven or hell and considering them to be dimensions or planes of
existence are mutually exclusive beliefs. I don't think you'll find a
Christian or Muslim who doesn't believe that heaven and hell are planes of
existence in one way or another.

>What exactly defines the difference between literalism and symbolisism.

I think it lies in the original text and what is then done with that text.
If there's a statement in a religious scripture that depicts heaven as a
fluffy paradise with streams of milk and honey, taking that description at
face value and believing it, to the letter, to be the reality of that place,
constitutes a literalist interpretation. If, however, allegorical
hermeneutics (the kind the Baha'i Faith uses) is applied to that original
text so that its definition is meant to be viewed through a symbolic lens,
that constitutes symbolism.

Best,
Adib

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
>
>
> The Bahá'í Faith  regards the
> conventional description of heaven (and hell) as a specific place as
> symbolic. The Bahá'í writings 
> describe heaven as a "spiritual 
> condition" where closeness to God is defined
> as heaven; conversely hell  is seen as a state of
> remoteness from God. Bahá'u'lláh ,
> the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, has stated that the nature of the life of
> the soul in the afterlife is beyond comprehension in the physical plane, but
> has stated that the soul will retain its consciousness and individuality and
> remember its physical life; the soul will be able to recognize other souls
> and communicate with them.[9] <#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8>
>
> For Bahá'ís, entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy.
> [9] <#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8> Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the
> process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this
> world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the
> womb  of its 
> mother."[10]<#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-gwb-9>The analogy to the womb in 
> many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly
> existence: just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's
> initial physical development, the physical world provides for the
> development of the individual soul . Accordingly,
> Bahá'ís view life as a preparatory stage, where one can develop and perfect
> those qualities which will be needed in the next 
> life.[9]<#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8>The key to spiritual progress is 
> to follow the path outlined by the current Manifestations
> of God , which Bahá'ís believe is
> currently Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'u'lláh wrote, "Know thou, of a truth, that if
> the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return
> and be gathered to the glory of the 
> Beloved."[11]<#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-gwb2-10>
>
> The Bahá'í teachings state that there exists a hierarchy of souls in the
> afterlife , where the merits of each soul
> determines their place in the hierarchy, and that souls lower in the
> hierarchy cannot completely understand the station of those above. Each soul
> can continue to progress in the afterlife, but the soul's development is not
> entirely dependent on its own conscious efforts, the nature of which we are
> not aware, but also augmented by the grace of God, the 
> prayersof others, and good deeds performed by others on 
> Earth in the name of that
> person.[9] <#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-8>
>
>
>
> The Bahá'í Faith  regards the
> conventional description of Hell (and heaven) as a specific place as
> symbolic.[34] <#12c138e3029c9563_cite_note-lafd-33> Instead the Bahá'í
> writings  describe Hell as a
> "spiritual condition" where remoteness from God is defined as Hell;
> conversely heaven 

Re: Afterlife

[Mark A. Foster]

Patti,

At 06:16 PM 5/24/2004, you wrote:
>>In placing the work in the fiction category, one probably has a bit of skepticism 
>>regarding people speaking from the next world (and I usually do--although speaking 
>>as a scientist I have had inexplicable things happenn  me-- so sometimes I have to 
>>be willing to suspend my disbelief).<<

I am also extremely skeptical regarding spiritism (spiritualist) mediumship, 
channeling, etc. The premillennialist Christian doctrine of the rapture, or 
translation, of the church was first developed by Margaret McDonald, a teenage 
Scottish spiritist medium.

However, I think it is important to understand that Wellesley Tudor Pole did set out 
to write fiction work. His book lacks some of the drama of Oahspe, the Urantia Book, 
and other channeled works of his period, but the likely intent, to give supernatural 
mandate to one's own belief system, is substantially the same.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger" 
-- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Afterlife

[Patti Goebel]

> Jonah's site places _Private Dowding_ under the fiction category. However,
I am not sure that Tudor Pole regarded it as such. He had a strong interest
in spiritism (spiritualism).
>

Hi Mark,

You are correct,  I was using Jonah's classification.  When I first read it
(it's been a while) I think I was reading it as if the events were ones
Tudor Pole actually experienced, which is what he claims in the story: "The
messages I received in this manner from 'Thomas Dowding," recluse,
schoolmaster, soldier, are set down exactly as they reached me."

In placing the work in the fiction category, one probably has a bit of
skepticism regarding people speaking from the next world (and I usually
do--although speaking as a scientist I have had inexplicable things happen
to me-- so sometimes I have to be willing to suspend my disbelief).  In this
case, it's a bit difficult for me to distinguish if and how much of the
story was actually experienced by Mr. Pole and how much was simply based on
his insights (and possibly on discussions with Abdu'l-Baha and the Baha'is).
I guess I would have to know whether or not his statement about "exactly as
they reached me" is simply a literary device or the truth before I would
definitely call if fiction.

Patti


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Re: Afterlife

[Mark A. Foster]

Hi, Patti,

At 01:37 AM 5/24/2004, you wrote:
>>There is an interesting fictional story about the afterlife written by Captain Tudor 
>>Pole.<< 

Jonah's site places _Private Dowding_ under the fiction category. However, I am not 
sure that Tudor Pole regarded it as such. He had a strong interest in spiritism 
(spiritualism).

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger" 
-- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Afterlife

[Patti Goebel]

> "It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and
unbelief may become changed - that is to say, they may become the object of
pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is
giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved."
> -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.232
>

There is an interesting fictional story about the afterlife written by
Captain Tudor Pole.  It's a bit hard to determine where Baha'i ideas begin
and end in the book, but I believe there is more than just on pages 45-46 of
the book as mentioned in the link below.  Captain Pole, while not a Baha'i,
was a friend of the Baha'is.  He actually may have saved 'Abdu'l-Baha's life
during WW I, when he got word to the British War Cabinet of Djemel Pasha's
plan to crucify "Abdu'l-Baha on Mt. Carmel in the event of a Turkish defeat.
The war cabinet sent back a request to General Allenby to protect the Holy
Family, and it was done (the whole story is in "The Servant, the General,
and Armageddon published by George Ronald).   Tudor Pole also carried
letters to Egypt for 'Abdu'l-Baha and mailed them.  It makes one wonder how
much he may have discussed the afterlife with 'Abdu'l-Baha.

Patti

http://bahai-library.com/fiction/private.dowding.html


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Re: Afterlife

[Mark A. Foster]

Dean,

At 10:12 PM 5/23/2004, you wrote:
>>Do any of the Baha'i Writings suggest that the afterlife might be limited to 
>>believers?<< 

Certain stations in the afterlife, like eternal life and the Supreme Concourse (malaa 
al-a`laa), appear to be for believers, but the Baha'i primary sources clearly do not 
advocate a Jehovah's Witness-like annihilationism for non-Baha'is.

In addition, I would suggest that Baha'i soteriology, unlike the various 
neo-evangelical and fundamentalist Christian soteriologies, need to admit the 
possibility of transformation by the grace of God in the next world:

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may 
become changed - that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the 
bounty of God, not through His justice - for bounty is giving without desert, and 
justice is giving what is deserved."
-- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.232

For fundamentalist and (most) neo-evangelical Christians, continued salvation in the 
next world is an impossibility.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger" 
-- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Afterlife

[Smaneck]

In a message dated 5/23/2004 11:25:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

There are passages which could conceivably be interpreted that way, but I don't. Check out what   Gleanings has to say.
  
 Do you mean you don't interpret them that way?


No, I don't interpret those passages that way. 

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Re: Afterlife

[Dean Betts]

 

  Do any of the Baha'i Writings suggest that the afterlife might 
be limited tobelievers?
  There are passages which could conceivably be interpreted that way, 
  but I don't. Check out what   Gleanings has 
  to say.
   
    Do you mean you don't interpret them that 
  way?
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Re: Afterlife

[Smaneck]

In a message dated 5/23/2004 11:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Do any of the Baha'i Writings suggest that the afterlife might be limited to
believers?


Dear Dean, 

There are passages which could conceivably be interpreted that way, but I don't. Check out what Gleanings has to say.

warmest, Susan 
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