subject:"ruhi in ireland"

Dear james

you write: internet lists have, at times, raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution. IMO, to make such a comment is never acceptable. The internet, however, seems to breed it and that, I feel, turns the stomach of many.

I have no time for anybody who tries to indiscriminate any individual. With institutions, I have a more tolerant approach. I can understand the despair sometimes behind the remark.
Did you ever look upon the certainty and the trust you have in the institutions of the faith as a bounty that has been vouchsafed to you by God? I do look upon it myself like that. Even though I have had some struggles to do, I know that I could never have survived the tests if God had not lead me. I think only because I turned to God in prayer for guidance every time I felt very challenged by an institution in my faith, I was considered worthy to receive such a bounty. Yet God could easily have let me struggle on my own, and coudl have told me time and again how despicable I was to have but one single syllable of doubt in my heart.

Some people cannot see immediately what to you and me is obvious. A raised eyebrow does not help much here, nor does it helpthe serious seeker after truth (whether he has been a Bahai for donkeys years does not matter) . It may only turn them more desparing and cynical.

Usually there is pain behind sneering remarks on the institutions. And sometimes a doubtful approach is interpreted by Bahais as close to covenant breaking. Someone in my community said, after hearing that some people I knew on the internet had great difficulty with that ruhi is now so much promoted and questioned the wisdom of that, she said: that is covenant breaking, because ruhi is approved by the UHJ and the ITC and it is a decision of the House to have ruhi done all over the world (I had to correct her on that).

And the above is an attitude I think will lead to fundamentalism and shows that unity in diversity is not very well understood and that all the writings this person reads relating to how we should be with one another and how loving and kind we should be to one another are not understood. Because loving and kind is fine, to this person, wonderful even, but only to those who understand what she understands and see things the way she sees them. This attitude will never help the process of the realisation here in this world of matter of a spiritual truth: that mankind is essentially one.

Some people simply do not know how to be not critical and sneering when they are in pain. That does not always mean that they have an aversion to the institutions or are completely disrespectful to it. It just means that they are in pain. On further probing it becomes quite quickly clear whether that person is attached to their opinion or whether that person is willing to let go and investigate whether they have maybe a big prejudice.

much love,

janine van rooij
dublin, irelandJames Mock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have heard Dr. Arbab make remarks to this effect, however I think it wasPaul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi asthey had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for.Paul is very aware of the tendency for the American community to become gemicky.he seeks a sustained process. Let's start out by focusing on one set of materials; after we have mastered that, then we move on. I know there is more to his thinking than simply Ruhi."This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the ComprehensiveDeepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member DanJordan."Yeah, I think the difference is that people didn't feel that theComprehensive Deepening Program was being imposed on them the same way Ruhi!
is. It
was simply made available and the friends could take it or leave it.I have never felt that Ruhi has been "imposed" upon meonly that a process has been encouraged."Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not aboutspecific MATERIALS. It is about developing human resources in a systematicmanner."I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process.Ah! Susan. Look at my wordsI said "Ruhi is ABOUT process," not that it IS the process.But I would agree with you that we should not suggest things that tarnishthe reputation of faithful servants of the Cause. There is no reason tothink anyone is promoting Ruhi for any other reason than they believe itwould serve the best interests of the Faith.Susan, this is one point that concerns !
me:
internet lists have, at times, raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution. IMO, to make such a comment is never acceptable. The internet, however, seems to breed it and that, I feel, turns the

RE: Ruhi in Ireland

I am very sensitive when people start throwing doubts on other peoples motives publicly. To me it is slander. And I will continue to say so. And I have nothing against this person Steve. But anybody who makes a slanderous remark will hear something in protest from me. Even if that person is my dearest friend.

much love,

janineKhazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort ofdiscussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted suchdiscussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide amost dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one fromThailand from one in the US... I do not know what is about Ruhi but it doesrapidly generate these tensions when discussed and discussed [not whenimplemented perhaps]. One can study texts the Revealed Word as I am doing asJohn Smith is doing [just as one can do so in a home in Ireland]. Let us befriendly. Mark can you come to our help? Humblest dust in the path of allkhazehOnly the Word of God can unite not Ruhi as Ruhi...[or I am mistaken]*** "Consider the flowers of a garden. Though differing in kind, color,form and shape, yet, inasm!
uch as
they are refreshed by the waters of onespring, revived by the breath of one wind, invigorated by the rays of onesun, this diversity increaseth their charm and addeth unto their beauty.How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves andblossoms, the fruit, the branches and the trees of that garden were all ofthe same shape and color! Diversity of hues, form and shape enricheth andadorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof. In like manner,when divers shades of thought, temperament and character, are broughttogether under the power and influence of one central agency, the beauty andglory of human perfection will be revealed and made manifest. NAUGHT BUTTHE CELESTIAL POTENCY OF THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH RULETH AND TRANSCENDETH THEREALITIES OF ALL THINGS, IS CAPABLE OF HARMONIZING THE DIVERGENT THOUGHTS,SENTIMENTS, IDEAS AND CONVICTIONS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN." (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'!
u'llah,
Page: 42)***[emphasisadded]sure. lets all get down to a sceptical approach and throwaway all trust and faith. do you know Paul Lamplepersonally or anybody on the ruhi institute incolombia?Maybe then the world will change you have to be careful. Because this post in myopinion is slanderous. janine van rooijdublin, ireland--- Steve Cooney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle "en!
gine" on
the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach. Cheers, Steve Cooney.__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]!
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RE: ruhi in ireland

I will only comment that what most Bahais call firesides are not firesides in my view at all. And I have noticed that I become less clear in teaching the more I use my own understanding of the faith, and that my words have more impact if i use in a natural way quotes from the writings when I tell people aboutthe bahai faith. Through these quotes they become curious and are more open tostudying the writings, at which point I give them a book or go through some quotes with them (well, this has happened twice ;o) since I did book 2).

Susan: So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes ordevotionals, just study circles. ;-}

maybe I have understood it not correctly. But I got the idea from letters by the UHJ that the institute process consists of study circles, childrens classes and devotionals. Maybe I got that wrong.

much love,

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland.Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"What is a fireside? Getting acouple of friends together and talk about the Bahaifaith."Dear Janine,When the Guardian said it was the best teaching method he gave as his reasonthat it allows the seeker to ask all of the questions in their hearts."What did it turn into? official talks aboutpeoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I haveheard very few quotes studied in a fireside."I'm not so sure how necessary it is to study quotes at firesides, butindividual pontificating is not the best idea either. As the Guardiansuggested a fireside should focus on the seeker. In most communities seekerswho were ready to study the Writings in more depth were more than welcome atdeepenings."When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community wasmuch smaller. The UHJ has given us the instituteprocess whihc!
is
offering study circles, childrensclasses and devotionals to the community at large."So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes ordevotionals, just study circles. ;-} But I agree that the closer we get toentry by troops the less serviceable traditional firesides are likely tobecome. That is because firesides are really only effective with people weknow and to have entry by troops we have to bring in those we don't know.And one thing that was learned from the media campaign is that seekers don'twant to come to meetings at the homes of strangers. And the first meetingthey expect to attend is a worship service. Until we began devotionalmeetings we didn't have any of those to offer. But those devotional meetingsmay not do us any good in terms of increasing our numbers unless we holdthem at Baha'i Centers. Right now the emphasis is on 'multiplying' suchmeetings. If that means holding them more frequently a!
nd
regularly, well andgood. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots oflittle meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating.Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues."If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask forfeedback of that friend, and if the friend is nothappy with the method, I will ask what she feels aboutthe quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I willask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahaiwritings, and then work out a system wherewith she canstudy the writings.I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurredjust now to me that maybe some people do not dothis..."It strikes me that you are using the 'fireside method' recommended by theGuardian, namely answering the questions in the seeker's own heart. But Ithink the Ruhi method is very different. ;-}"It is interesting that you and I have such a
differentexperience with the books themselves."Except you apparently did have the same reaction when you read these books.Wasn't it the Study Circles themselves which changed your opinion."Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children,which is very much in alignment with my view, so i hadnot muchproblems there, but that is the only book Ican remember that strongly focussed on theinterpretation of the editors of the writings (in thiscase, on how to treat children)."My recollection is that section 2 of Book One had very little to do withanything from authoritative texts."That is okay, and Icannot see any objection you asking your community forsupport in setting up something for your friends."Well, I did complain about the fact that Ruhi was taking up so much of thecommunity's time that firesides had disappeared. Which was a problem,because I usually have plenty of seekers !
to bring.
After I said that theydid start having firesides once again more regularly."It is there, it has beentested for 20 years."I wish the testing had been a little more scientific with some equivalent todouble-blinds."I amso happy to have the internet, because that means Ican go even international now and work on differentlevels: mystical, intellectual and the mainstreamBahai."Yeah, it has been important to me this way as well. Most of the things Italk about here would elicit nothing but glazed-eyed stares in my

RE: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-19 Thread Steve Cooney (Steve Cooney)

Janine and James et al,

Your in danger of falling off your high horses. I never suggested any actual
impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be
placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any
semblance of impropriety, any possibility of pecuniary advantage, or any
hint of capture by elites etc. Paul Lample, whom I have met I have nothing
but respect for, and I am sure that so far the sale of Ruhi books has
probably not paid anybody's grocery bill even, but if there was, master plan
coming to fruition, say 100 million copies transacted at 10c, well you do
the maths. 

Paul has displayed his generosity by putting his book Creating a New Mind in
digital format (http://www.juxta.com/newmind-en-1.1.pdf). I would like to
see the anonymous Ruhi Foundation curriculum designers do the same . That
still lets them sell the printed/bound version. I would like to understand
better the intellectual property aspects of the Ruhi Foundation's curriculum
production business and the Network of agencies which goes by the moniker
Development Learning Association of which the Ruhi Foundation is a member.
Respond to this post if you can shed any meaningful scholarly light.

Development Learning Press and the whole army of Badi Foundation, William
Mmutle Maseltha Foundation, Universidad Nur, Two Wings Foundation,
Development Learning Association, FUNDAEC, Foundation for Advancement of
Science, The Ruhi Foundation (The Social and economic development arm of the
Ruhi Institute) are associated or linked with Palabra Publications and
Development Learning Press shares the same Palm Beach address as Palabra
Publications. These social and economic institutions and orgnizations, some
of which are private and some agencies of NSA's should perhaps be
disentangled from the worldwide internal human resource development programs
of the Bahai Faith, is all I am suggesting??. 

Now we have the curriculum designers branching into something called The
Ruhi Music Curriculum in Florida.
http://www.fbssc.org/fbsswebsitejune10_010.htm ,and news that Palabra is
getting into CD production. Again the music that goes with these programs
could be downloadable as digital media. 

And just for the record, I have forgiven those who have suggested I have
slandered Paul Lample but I insist that such suggestions cease forthwith.

Two Wings: http://www.twowings.or.at
http://www.twowings.or.at/englisch/e_index.html 
Development Learning Press: http://www.devlp.com 
Fundaec: http://www.fundaec.org/ 
Ruhi Foundation: ??? (try and drum up something meaningful with Google)
Badi Foundation: http://www.badi-foundation.org
Nur University: http://www.nur.edu/



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RE: ruhi in ireland

I never suggested any actual
impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be
placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any
semblance of impropriety,

The problem Steve, is that I don't think anyone saw any semblance of
impropriety until you suggested it. I have sometimes wondered if Ruhi would
have gotten as far as it did had not Dr. Arbab been on the House of Justice,
but the idea that anyone would do this for personal gain would never have
occurred to me. Aren't all the organizations you mention, non-profit?

I would like to understand
better the intellectual property aspects of the Ruhi Foundation's curriculum
production business and the Network of agencies which goes by the moniker
Development Learning Association of which the Ruhi Foundation is a member.
Respond to this post if you can shed any meaningful scholarly light.

First off, what does 'scholarly light' have to do with their coming on here
and to answer a challenge to put their stuff in the public domain in order
to avoid an 'appearance' of impropriety that wasn't there until you opened
your mouth? That's like a certain person on TRB who is constantly asking me
to produce my tax records to prove I'm not on the payroll of the ITC! Such
charges shouldn't be dignified with an answer.

These social and economic institutions and orgnizations, some
of which are private and some agencies of NSA's should perhaps be
disentangled from the worldwide internal human resource development programs
of the Bahai Faith, is all I am suggesting??.

Why? Again, are any of them other than non-profit organizations?

And just for the record, I have forgiven those who have suggested I have
slandered Paul Lample

Gee, how generous of you. ;-}

but I insist that such suggestions cease forthwith.

I'd like to see Ruhi in the public domain as well since, as I mentioned, it
would make modifying it much simpler. But when you start demanding that
organizations and people let go of their copyrights in order to 'avoid the
appearance of impropriety' you are certainly implying wrongdoing.

I would not have used the word 'slander' to describe your earlier comments,
and I thought some people overreacted a bit. But I have to agree with James
and Janine that it was inappropriate. And this post indicates you still
'don't get it.'

Susan


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Re: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-19 Thread Firouz Anaraki


Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are
most important to be brought up in talking to another
about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the
importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also
gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a
person one wants to tell about the Bahai faith.
It also made me think about what teaching is.
Dear  janine,
I remember when I did book 6, I had a problem with one of the editorial 
comments about one of the quotations. I do not have book 6 right now with 
me, I try to get a copy of the book and tell you what my problem is and see 
what you think about it.

Best regards,
Firouz 

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RE: ruhi in ireland

I thought there is Core in the USA. Is that not considered an alternative?

Dear Janine,

The Fundamental Verities portion of the Core Curriculum existed prior to the
Study Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basic
sequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here because it was the only
one which met the House's criteria already. Therefore the Institutes were
then packed with pro-Ruhi enthusiasts. When the NSA ordered that Fundamental
Verities be offered as an alternative to Ruhi, the Institutes resisted,
backed I think by the Counsellors and ABMs. Then Paul Lample was sent out by
the ITC to persuade the NSA to change its decision.

and one can always ask for confirmation of the view of a counsellor by
writing to the UHJ. They have known to disagree with the view of a
counsellor before, and with the view of an NSA before.

I have heard rumors that the NSA may have done that, but I can't say for
sure.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland

I remember when I did book 6, I had a problem with one of the editorial
comments about one of the quotations.

Dear Firouz,

I've had problems this way as well, though I've never done Book 6. But one
Baha'i insisted I wasn't giving firesides right because I wasn't keeping it
simple like Book 6 said. He wanted me instead to ignore a seeker's question
which he insisted wasn't important, that we knew what seekers needed and
that is what we should give them. The editorial comments of Book 6 took
precedence over the Guardian's guidance!

warmest, Susan


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RE: devotionals (was RE: ruhi in ireland)

Dear Susan,

you are right I have not seen any statistics ;o)

I think a devotional meeting is not passing the prayer book around. I think it is creating a devotional atmosphere. I usually print out some quotes and prayers and try to make it as diverse as possible, with prayers from different religions. There is a website on the internet which has word documents containing quotes from different religions around one theme, like unity for example.

I use music as well, and try to make a special atmosphere in the room by lighting candles. I think a lot of Bahais have no idea how to create a spiritual atmosphere, but luckily there is something like the Tranquility Zone (there is a website as well) and I got a lot of ideas from there Do a search or look on www.bahai.org.uk.

I think some people are more interested in a small group than others. It may be that in your area a devotional in a house does not work, but one cannot know that for certain until at least 4 or 5 people have tried it on a regular basis.

I think if you have devotionals in your house, you feel more taht it is your responsibility to offer it to people you meet. But I do not wish to say that public devotionals should not be held. Only, we held them for years in hotels etc and not many people showed up. The only public devotionals with big success are the tranquility zones in Swindon, UK. And that is because that spiritual dimension through music and the decoration of the room is added.

much love,

janine van rooij
dublin, irelandSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
" maybe I have understood it not correctly. But I got the idea from lettersby the UHJ that the institute process consists of study circles, childrensclasses and devotionals. Maybe I got that wrong."Dear Janine,No, those are the three core activities of the Five Year Plan. The hope isthat the Institute Process will eventually lead to the multiplication of allthree, but it is only directly involved in study circles."I have understood that we should do devotionals as much as possible in ourown home, to reach the most people, because the more bahais and non-bahaishave devotionals, the more people can come to them."That is the way they have been pushing devotionals but I'm not sure that issuch a good idea. As I said, studies indicate that seekers want to attendworship services in a neutral place, not in strangers'
homes."If you have ten bahais in a town and one regular devotional, whereeverybody can come, you reach less people than if you have ten devotionalsin the town at each persons home who invites his or her personal friends andfamily."I would be more inclined to invite my friends and family over to a regularlyestablished worship service than a prayer meeting in my home."Have you seen the Building Momentum video?"Bits and pieces."There were examplesof this and how a non=bahai held a devotional in herown home as well.It does work, actually. It works better than regular devotionals in onecentral place, because we have held them on and off in europe and people youknow personally will feel more comfortable coming to your own home thancoming to a center, because you have a bond withthem."But entry by troops involves getting people to meetings whom we don'tnecessarily have a personal bond with. I'v!
e not
seen any studies whichcompare the statistics on the effectiveness of well-planned worship servicesvs. small home based devotionals, have you? But I'll grant you that inEurope where only 4% of the population goes to church on any given Sunday,this approach might be more effective. I live in a part of the country where*most* people go to church at least two times a week and if we can't createthat intense sense of community we won't get anywhere here. I agree that atsome point you need to multiply these meetings simply to handle the sheernumbers of people we hope to have. But to multiply them before the numbershave begun to increase are there strikes me as doing something like goingback to the good ole days of paper Assemblies and moving around to openlocalities. We had a goals to fulfill by God we were going to have themwhether we ended up with anything viable or not! In my opinion part of theadvantage of clustering is that !
it
enabled us to combine resources in orderto put in place all of the three core activities. The time to multiply, itseems to me, is when our numbers actually begin to grow as a result. Butinstead we seem to imagine that multiplication by itself will bring growth.I think it just drains our resources."I think entry by troops will happen when we have 100 bahais in a town eachholding their devotionals having regularly 3-4 people attending"Except I don't expect my seekers to want to go to prayer meetings with just3-4 people attending. What are we going to do? Just pass around the prayerbook? Most non-Baha'is find that boring! We need well-planned devotionalmeetings much like the ones in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkars. Better in fact,because most non-Baha'is find

RE: ruhi in ireland

So, why not ask your NSA directly? Or the UHJ?

You see, I think fundamentalism is the last thing the world needs. It has been overemphasis of one aspect which lead religions into acts unworthy of the religion. I am quite viligant that this should not happen in the Bahai faith. So if I was concerned about fundamentalism, I would write to the NSA and UHJ if I thought a particular method would lead to this.

much love,

janineSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I thought there is Core in the USA. Is that not considered an alternative?Dear Janine,The Fundamental Verities portion of the Core Curriculum existed prior to theStudy Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basicsequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here because it was the onlyone which met the House's criteria already. Therefore the Institutes werethen packed with pro-Ruhi enthusiasts. When the NSA ordered that FundamentalVerities be offered as an alternative to Ruhi, the Institutes resisted,backed I think by the Counsellors and ABMs. Then Paul Lample was sent out bythe ITC to persuade the NSA to change its decision."and one can always ask for confirmation of the view of a counsellor bywriting to the UHJ. They have known to disagree with the view of acounsellor before, and with the!
view of
an NSA before."I have heard rumors that the NSA may have done that, but I can't say forsure.warmest, Susan__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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RE: devotionals (was RE: ruhi in ireland)

 I think some people are more interested in a small group than others. It
may be that in your area a devotional in a house does not work, but one
cannot know that for certain until at least 4 or 5 people have tried it on a
regular basis. 

Dear Janine,

We don't have much choice where I live because we don't have a Baha'i
Centre. But well-planned, larger devotional meetings seem to work better
than dividing our resources between a bunch of smaller ones. And seekers
that contact us through the media campaign usually prefer to go to a meeting
hall than the home of someone they don't know. That isn't even safe in
today's world.

The only public devotionals with big success are the tranquility zones in
Swindon, UK. And that is because that spiritual dimension through music and
the decoration of the room is added.

That is exactly the kind of thing that needs to happen IMV and that usually
can't be replicated in smaller meetings.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland


So, why not ask your NSA directly? Or the UHJ?

Dear Janine,

I nearly did that recently when I wrote the House regarding another matter.
But a Counsellor wisely advised me against dumping all the gripes I had
collected over the last five years on them that way. ;-}

I stuck to the original purpose of my letter instead, one I think is much
more urgent than the question of Ruhi in any case. I like to pick my battles
and Ruhi is one I suspect I will lose. Hell, even my son is against me when
it comes to that. He likes Ruhi.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-18 Thread James Mock


Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the
principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is
associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and
promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there 
are
royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there 
are
also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials.
And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another
strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi
curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any
potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach.

From personal knowledge and experience, Palabra Publications is not owned by 
Paul Lample, nor does he receive any profit from it.  He promotes Ruhi 
because he feels that it is significant material that is having a positive 
effect world wide.  Dr. Arbab was involved with the development of Ruhi and 
has first hand experience with its success.  Both gentlemen support the 
process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other 
materialsthey have just seen the success that this process can have 
and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful.

It betrays confidence in the Universal House of Justice to assume that it is 
not aware of what is happening in the world and to suggest, by inference, 
that individual members, the ITC itself or members of the House of Justice 
are promoting something simply because of connections or royalties.

This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive 
Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan 
Jordan.  Just because someone is associated with an institution, doesn't 
mean that they cannot produce or distribute materials.  In fact, it could be 
argued that the Universal House of Justice appointed Paul Lample to the ITC 
BECAUSE he was an advocate of Ruhi prior to his appointment to the ITC or 
his association with Palabras.

Paul, in particular, is one of the most inciteful people that this soul has 
had the blessing to encouter.  We worked together at the Baha'i National 
Center from 1980-1987.  Even during that time, Paul demonstrated an in-depth 
knowledge of the underlying processes effecting humanity and developed 
several though-provoking programs.  He has a tremendous intellect and, when 
everyone was talking about short-term campaigns such as I am a tiny cell, 
Paul was comtemplated the deeper processes of growth and development.

Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about 
specific MATERIALS.  It is about developing human resources in a systematic 
manner.  People witnessed the initial stages of Entry by troops during the 
60s and 70s, but there was no systemtic method for consolidating the 
victories of the time.  Therefore, names such as paper assemblies, mass 
taught Baha'is, etc. became part of our vocabulary.  Today, we have the 
beginnings of a wonderful process that is aimed at increasing the capacity 
of the community and helping it prepare for that day when Entry by Troops 
becomes a reality.

Little by little, day by day.  The PROCESSes in the world are gradual.  
There was a time, for example, when Baha'is consumed wine.the Master 
SLOWLY weaned the friends from the practice.  Everything unfolds as He 
wills.  Ruhi is a start.  Undoubtedly, better materials will come to exist 
in the future.  Everything changes.  We must be confident that ALL is in His 
hand.

He is the All-seeing, the All-knowing, the All-wise.  Be confident!
James

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RE: ruhi in ireland


Susan, it could be argued that our efforts, in general, have been less
effective in urban areasOne cannot be sure that Ruhi, itself, is less
effective than any other approach in urban areas.

Dear James,

Yes, if effectiveness is measured by an increase in human resources or entry
by troops, then it could be said other methods don't seem any more
effective. However, we certainly can measure whether urban versus rural
Baha'is personally find Ruhi as enriching as much as they might like some
other approach.


Again, the method should not be automatically faulted; there may be other
extinuating circumstances.

The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in
study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have
active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high
growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very
active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the
greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland


Both gentlemen support the
process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other
materials
they have just seen the success that this process can have
and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful.



Dear James,

I have heard Dr. Arbab make remarks to this effect, however I think it was
Paul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi as
they had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for.

This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive
Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan
Jordan.

Yeah, I think the difference is that people didn't feel that the
Comprehensive Deepening Program was being imposed on them the same way Ruhi
is. It was simply made available and the friends could take it or leave it.

Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about
specific MATERIALS.  It is about developing human resources in a systematic
manner.

I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about a
Process. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process.

But I would agree with you that we should not suggest things that tarnish
the reputation of faithful servants of the Cause. There is no reason to
think anyone is promoting Ruhi for any other reason than they believe it
would serve the best interests of the Faith.

warmest, Susan


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RE: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-18 Thread James Mock


The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in
study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have
active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high
growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very
active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the
greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi.
True!
Ruhi, one could argue, is about processdeveloping the process of 
systemtic action as a routine element of the Baha'i community.  The 
materials are just a tool for establishing the process.

How are things?
Thanks, again, for coming to Shereen's reception.
James

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Re: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-18 Thread Popeyesays

In a message dated 1/18/2005 11:28:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process
I agree. Ruhi is a curriculum. I have done four books so far. Book I which is an okay approach to basic spiritually oriented material, is basically sound, but I do not think the material can be presented in the same way to seekers as it is to believers. To believers it is taught as material to be nearly memorized at least, not discussed with questions of "What does this mean?". With seekers, gosh, I think questions should be encouraged and dealt with as honestly and directly as possible, preferably with more than one answer from more than one person, and lots of discussion.

Book 2, I personally found to be lamentable - with text and editorial opinion intermixed so much that newcomers would find it hard to seperate one from the other..

Book 4, I found good, but basic. I kind of co-facilitated because I prepared material from Dawnbreakers or Taherzadeh to elaborate on the glosses.

Book 7 was okay, I think more facilitators should do it more than once with more than one facilitator to allow more flexible approaches.

There is nothing wrong with Ruhi that another set or two of prepared material would not cure. Right now it is the only cow to buy and it might or might not be a milk cow and you might or might not be in the market for a dairy cow in the first place.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: ruhi in ireland

James wrote:

Paul is very aware of the tendency for the American community to become
gemicky.he seeks a sustained process.  Let's start out by focusing on
one set of materials; after we have mastered that, then we move on.

Gimicky?

Work had been done on the Fundamental Verities program long before Ruhi
arrived on the scene. At the time, though, it didn't quite fit the House's
latest criteria for Study Circles. So the next few years were spent
modifying it for that purpose. Then when the revised program was ready to
launch it was torpedoed. What really bugs me James, is that just after this
happened Doug Martin went around the country talking about how Ruhi hadn't
come from the Universal House of Justice but people had voted for it with
their feet. How can he say that when the only chance we might have had to
'vote' was just taken away?

  I know
there is more to his thinking than simply Ruhi.

Yeah, there is. His argument was that the ITC's research indicated there
needed to be 50 believers in each locality who had completed the entire
sequence for there to be sufficient human resources to sustain large scale.
The fear was that having two different sequences might slow down the process
of communities reaching that goal. Maybe that is a legitimate concern. But
if Ruhi is being imposed from above, at least they should admit that is what
they are doing rather than tell us we voted for with our feet.

I have never felt that Ruhi has been imposed upon meonly that a
process has been encouraged.

I'm glad you haven't. But that isn't the case everywhere. Study Circles
(unlike CDP) have been made the center of Baha'i community life and those
who don't participate are naturally going to feel marginalized. At the
Nashville Conference a couple of years ago, for instance, Ruhi was all the
speakers talked about, so if your one of those who really can't stomach it
you are bound to feel alienated. Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that to
be a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up study
circles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. I
know there are areas in the Pacific where Baha'is trying to teach other
kinds of deepenings have been told to stop for fear it might detract from
Ruhi. In other places Ruhi has been made the prerequisite for other kinds of
service to the Cause, such as teaching children's classes or participating
in teaching projects. Right now I'm teaching children's classes so all the
other adults can do Book 3, when they finish I suppose I will no longer be
qualified to teach childrens classes, after all, I haven't done Book 3. ;-}

Susan, this is one point that concerns me:  internet lists have, at times,
raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is
derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution.  IMO, to
make such a comment is never acceptable.

Derogatory is a bit too broad a term and could be applied to anything that
is the least bit critical. But I think we do need to avoid saying things
which on anyone's integrity without the strongest proof. We also need to
avoid undermining the authority of the institutions, which I grant you has
been fairly liberally interpreted on this list.

warmest, Susan



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Re: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-18 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:37:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that tobe a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up studycircles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. 
The Southern Regiona Council has released a pamphlet for homefront pioneers that states this quite clearly, Susan.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: ruhi in ireland

Susan: In fact
 I was just thinking
 about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was;
 that I open the book and
 almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to
 think! But my
 experience of this material is probably shaped, at
 least in part, by the
 anti-intellectualism I've seen in the community at
 large.

I did not have that after it was explained to me why
you had to go back again to the quotes. 

Book 6 seems to abandon that method of not wanting to
think quite a bit. 

 
Susan:
 If I recall correctly the passage you are alluding
 to, I think it is one
 which has been misused a lot. Wasn't Abdu'l-Baha
 talking more about Assembly
 members all getting behind a decision that the
 majority agreed upon rather
 than so much the community at large? In other words
 we are talking about a
 situation where each Assembly member got their say
 before the decision in
 question was made. I think the frustration a lot of
 us feel is over the fact
 that we were never part of the consultative process
 which decided on Ruhi
 material to begin with. In fact, even our NSA seems
 to have largely been
 shut out of the process. It mostly came down from
 the ITC, which as you
 know, is not an elected institution.

I did not read it as such, I have read it quite a few
times over the last year. But I will get it again from
Ocean when I am home (this computer does not have
Ocean) and read it again. 

I have the impression Abdu'l-Baha was talking about
the attitude any Bahai should have, not only LSA
members. 

Susan about firesides:
 He didn't just encourage it, he said it was the
 *best* teaching method. And
 I can't bring myself to introduce most of my friends
 to the Baha'i Faith
 through study circles. You mentioned how close its
 methods are to the
 Jehovah Witnesses. That is going to be the most
 striking thing to a visitor.
 I remember attending a Kingdom Hall meeting as a
 child and watching them use
 that method, thinking to myself that JWs weren't
 allowed to think. I never
 went back.

Well... yes he said that. This was before the plan of
the study circles. What is a fireside? Getting a
couple of friends together and talk about the Bahai
faith. What did it turn into? official talks about
peoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I have
heard very few quotes studied in a fireside. 

When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community was
much smaller. The UHJ has given us the institute
process whihc is offering study circles, childrens
classes and devotionals to the community at large. 

Firesides can still happen. I will not go through all
the ruhi books again after I have finished the cycle.
I hope to be able to be a facillitator, and maybe even
involved in setting up study circles which either
adapt the ruhi method to a particular group of people
or offer a different approach, again geared towards a
certain group of people. 
I want to look for example into the Core material. 

 
 Yeah, but we keep talking about 'multiplying' these
 activies which suggest
 to me that even when we are finished we just start
 the whole thing over
 again, which again, takes up all our resources.

The study circles are first and foremost something to
offer to the community. We are talking about
multiplying the study circles, and at this moment in
Ireland the ruhi books are offered, so it looks like
we are multiplying the method of ruhi, but I wonder if
that is what each and everybody means when talking
about multiplying activities. 

If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for
feedback of that friend, and if the friend is not
happy with the method, I will ask what she feels about
the quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I will
ask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahai
writings, and then work out a system wherewith she can
study the writings. 

I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurred
just now to me that maybe some people do not do
this...

Susan: 

 I have to say as a whole I find the facilitators in
 the US more flexible
 than the material itself seems to be.

It is interesting that you and I have such a different
experience with the books themselves. Interesting to
me because I know myself as having a deep aversion of
anything that is fundamentalistic, anythign that is
routine like and does not induce using the mind.  
I worry a bit that maybe I am overlooking something. 
I have done book 1,2,4(which was okay like, not too
exciting, most of it I knew already but some details I
had forgotten, plus I am quite good in story telling,
have a lot of experience with)book 3 and book 6. In
that sequence. 

Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children,
which is very much in alignment with my view, so i had
not muchproblems there, but that is the only book I
can remember that strongly focussed on the
interpretation of the editors of the writings (in this
case, on how to treat children). Book 2, the theory is
quite good but the examples could be changed, shoudl
be changed, to a more urban or western

Re: ruhi in ireland

:o)

I must admit i was in a slightly provocative mood when
I made that statement. 

The thing is, what I often see people call a fireside
I don't think is a fireside at all. It is an official
talk about what one person thinks the bahai faith is
saying about a certain topic. 

But then, I am a person who likes study. I became a
Bahai by reading the writings and then asking
questions, not through going to firesides. 

The personal connection with someone one wants to
introduce the Bahai faith to is the most important
asset we have. But I see that as well as in building
up such a bond with a person that I can overcome my
fear of rejection and invite them to a study circle,
deepening, devotional, and be able to talk freely
about  the bahai teachings and my bahai life with that
person. 

To me, talking like this with a person is a
fireside...

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:21:51 PM Central
 Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have
 stopped, 
 The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S.
 that the institute process 
 should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it
 is, then attitudes need 
 adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue.
 
 
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RE: ruhi in ireland

Hi Susan, 

My take on it is this. 
Book 2 offered me the idea of introducing Baha'u'llahs
words in a natural way in my speech. It gave me the
practice and confidence to talk more freely than ever
before about the Bahai teachings. 

Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are
most important to be brought up in talking to another
about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the
importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also
gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a
person one wants to tell about the Bahai faith. 
It also made me think about what teaching is. 

Book 3 taught me that a bit as well, because what it
says about how to treat children is very much
applicable to adults. To everybody. 

Book 4 was fun to do but did not teach me much. I am
good at story telling and holding on to facts and I
knew a lot of the history already. 

The social aspect of ruhi, in that you do it in a
group is important to me as well. The answers to a
question a person gives, the going off often in pairs
to learn a quote etc, helps to build personal contact.
I got to know people better, because I got to know
another dimension of them, a dimension they would not
show so much, because it is a dimension which comes up
when one is occupied with the writings. The learning
for example, by heart, together, of a quote can be
quite powerful, because both of you repeat the words
over and over again. It forges a bond. 
The human resources I am developing in that is a
better  insight in peopel and better social
interaction.

The two newly declared are adding their personal
capacities to the pool of capacity we have in our
community. That is an increase in human resources. 

In our community where a lto of people have done at
least 2 books, more and more activities to reach out
to non-Bahais are taking place. And this has not
happened in all the 7 years I have been living here,
even though we always had the same sized community. It
seems that quite a few find inspiration through doing
the books and spiral then into activities to reach out
the non-Bahai community. 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin, ireland. 

--- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S.
 that the institute
 process should NOT make firesides and deepenings
 stop. If it is, then
 attitudes need adjustment to comply with the
 guidance on the issue.
 
 Dear Scott,
 
 I don't think it is a matter of 'attitude' it is a
 matter of energy. There
 is only so much of it to go around and right now
 that energy is being
 expended on Ruhi, leaving little time for firesides
 and deepenings. That
 being the case though, I have to question the extent
 to which Ruhi reaches
 its goal of increasing human resources?
 
 warmest, Susan
 
 
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RE: ruhi in ireland, Abdu'l-Baha about unity

Dear Susan, 

One does not exclude the other. I also feel that your
interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha is trying to do is
too narrow. I think it does apply not only to assembly
members, but to all of the community. I will later
post some quotes for the reason why I think this, when
I am back at a machine which has ocean on it.

The focus on unity is very strong in Abdu'l-Bahas
words and writings. Yet I do feel free to bring up
anythign to the Assembly. I think I am quite unique in
this, it seems that not many Bahais feel they can do
this, or if that if they try they are rebuked. 

I think part of the problem is also the way we are
trained to think in the west. We are trained to reject
authority and to work for ourselves, to be competitive
and to see the negative first before the positive. and
to be very attached to our opinions. And to be
argumentative, rather than proceed things in a manner
of consultation. 

I am a very argumentative person. I quickly fall into
a pro-contra discussion. here in Ireland that is not
at all appreciated ;o) 
For a long time now I am asking myself how I can raise
questions and issues I have with decisions taken by
institutions and yet be cooperative and do it in a
consultative way. 

by experimenting, not fearing the rejection of others,
or disapproval, and open for correction, I am
learning. 

The realisation that my opinion and interpretation of
the writings is but an opinion and interpretation and
not the absolute truth I so often feel it is, helps
;o)

The realisation that I may see more than the average
Bahai in my community or the country I am in, helps as
well. And then the advice of Baha'u'llah to offer a
truth in the utmost kindness, and if it is not
accepted to be unconcerned by that, to be detached
from that. 
I feel free to offer my insight, because I am not too
concerned whether it is accepted or not. It may be
that I am seeing more than another, it may be that i
am just fooling myself. If I see more and itis not
accepted, then clearly the community is not ripe for
it. I can bring it up at another time. I am part of
the process, andthe process is not in my hands, but in
Gods hands. I can worry about it, but that does not
help. 

Look what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had to work
with. Plans failign because people did not do what
they needed to do and were told to do. And how patient
and lovign they were. sometimes we have to turn to God
and exert the utmost patience, because the community
at large is not where we are, yet. And forcing it does
not work. 

much love, 

janine van rooij
dublin ireland




--- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Scott,
 
  What Abdu'l-Baha was trying to do was make sure
 that individual Assembly
 members did not undermine the authority of the
 institution as a whole by
 opposing the decision that body made. For them not
 to act in unity under
 these circumstances is rather like parents arguing
 discipline issues in
 front of their children--almost never a good idea if
 discipline is something
 the parents hope to maintain.
 
 I think the problem with over-generalizing that
 quotation from Abdu'l-Baha
 and applying it to the community as a whole rather
 than the individual
 members of the Assembly that made the decision is
 that it prevents the
 Assembly from getting the feedback it requires to
 determine whether or not
 something they implemented is working so they *can*
 change it if need be. If
 the believers 'for the sake of unity' feel they
 can't say what this isn't
 working corrections will never be made.
 
 warmest, Susan
 
 
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RE: Ruhi in Ireland

2005-01-18 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort of
discussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted such
discussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide a
most dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one from
Thailand from one in the US... I do not know what is about Ruhi but it does
rapidly generate these tensions when discussed and discussed [not when
implemented perhaps]. One can study texts the Revealed Word as I am doing as
John Smith is doing [just as one can do so in a home in Ireland]. Let us be
friendly. Mark can you come to our help? Humblest dust in the path of all
khazeh

Only the Word of God can unite not Ruhi as Ruhi...
[or I am mistaken]
*** Consider the flowers of a garden.  Though differing in kind, color,
form and shape, yet, inasmuch as they are refreshed by the waters of one
spring, revived by the breath of one wind, invigorated by the rays of one
sun, this diversity increaseth their charm and addeth unto their beauty.
How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves and
blossoms, the fruit, the branches and the trees of that garden were all of
the same shape and color!  Diversity of hues, form and shape enricheth and
adorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof.  In like manner,
when divers shades of thought, temperament and character, are brought
together under the power and influence of one central agency, the beauty and
glory of human perfection will be revealed and made manifest.  NAUGHT BUT
THE CELESTIAL POTENCY OF THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH RULETH AND TRANSCENDETH THE
REALITIES OF ALL THINGS, IS CAPABLE OF HARMONIZING THE DIVERGENT THOUGHTS,
SENTIMENTS, IDEAS AND CONVICTIONS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN. 
(Shoghi Effendi:  World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 42)***[emphasis
added]


sure. 

lets all get down to a sceptical approach and throw
away all trust and faith. do you know Paul Lample
personally or anybody on the ruhi institute in
colombia?

Maybe then the world will change 

you have to be careful. Because this post in my
opinion is slanderous. 


janine van rooij
dublin, ireland

--- Steve Cooney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been
 shut out of the process.
 It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you
 know, is not an elected
 institution.
 
 Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that
 is that one of the
 principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is
 Palabra Publications which is
 associated with Paul Lample who is one of the
 staunchest supporters and
 promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I
 wonder too if there are
 royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali
 Colombia. And there are
 also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc
 with other materials.
 And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection
 there, who is another
 strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is,
 would put the Ruhi
 curriculum materials in the public domain in a
 digital format and put any
 potential real or imagined conflict of interest
 beyond reproach.
 
 Cheers,
 Steve Cooney.
 
 
 
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RE: ruhi in ireland


What is a fireside? Getting a
couple of friends together and talk about the Bahai
faith.

Dear Janine,

When the Guardian said it was the best teaching method he gave as his reason
that it allows the seeker to ask all of the questions in their hearts.

 What did it turn into? official talks about
peoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I have
heard very few quotes studied in a fireside.

I'm not so sure how necessary it is to study quotes at firesides, but
individual pontificating is not the best idea either. As the Guardian
suggested a fireside should focus on the seeker. In most communities seekers
who were ready to study the Writings in more depth were more than welcome at
deepenings.

When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community was
much smaller. The UHJ has given us the institute
process whihc is offering study circles, childrens
classes and devotionals to the community at large.

So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes or
devotionals, just study circles. ;-} But I agree that the closer we get to
entry by troops the less serviceable traditional firesides are likely to
become. That is because firesides are really only effective with people we
know and to have entry by troops we have to bring in those we don't know.
And one thing that was learned from the media campaign is that seekers don't
want to come to meetings at the homes of strangers.  And the first meeting
they expect to attend is a worship service. Until we began devotional
meetings we didn't have any of those to offer. But those devotional meetings
may not do us any good in terms of increasing our numbers unless we hold
them at Baha'i Centers. Right now the emphasis is on 'multiplying' such
meetings. If that means holding them more frequently and regularly, well and
good. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots of
little meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating.
Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues.
If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for
feedback of that friend, and if the friend is not
happy with the method, I will ask what she feels about
the quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I will
ask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahai
writings, and then work out a system wherewith she can
study the writings.

I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurred
just now to me that maybe some people do not do
this...

It strikes me that you are using the 'fireside method' recommended by the
Guardian, namely answering the questions in the seeker's own heart. But I
think the Ruhi method is very different. ;-}

It is interesting that you and I have such a different
experience with the books themselves.

Except you apparently did have the same reaction when you read these books.
Wasn't it the Study Circles themselves which changed your opinion.



Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children,
which is very much in alignment with my view, so i had
not muchproblems there, but that is the only book I
can remember that strongly focussed on the
interpretation of the editors of the writings (in this
case, on how to treat children).

My recollection is that section 2 of Book One had very little to do with
anything from authoritative texts.


That is okay, and I
cannot see any objection you asking your community for
support in setting up something for your friends.

Well, I did complain about the fact that Ruhi was taking up so much of the
community's time that firesides had disappeared. Which was a problem,
because I usually have plenty of seekers to bring. After I said that they
did start having firesides once again more regularly.

It is there, it has been
tested for 20 years.

I wish the testing had been a little more scientific with some equivalent to
double-blinds.


I am
so happy to have the internet, because that means I
can go even international now and work on different
levels: mystical, intellectual and the mainstream
Bahai.

Yeah, it has been important to me this way as well. Most of the things I
talk about here would elicit nothing but glazed-eyed stares in my local
community.

the kind of deepening I would like woudl
include facts from how the culture was Baha'u'llah
grew  up in, a closer look at the hadiths He uses, but
it also would include things like: how do you keep
independence of thought and at the same time have
unity with the other Bahais around you?
How does the process of unity in diversity work? How
does a person view the world, think, etc. who is able
to form bonds with many diverse people and show
kindness and love to them all?
What is love? How can you stay loving to one who has
really hurt you?

And how do we balance truth with wisdom without compromising our integrity?

The more peopel become Bahai, the more we will find
people who share the same interests and with whom we
can go very indepth on certain issues.

Yeah, I guess part of my fears about Ruhi is that it will produce
cookie-cutter

Re: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-17 Thread Mark A. Foster

Janine,

At 10:31 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:
and it is too fundamentalistic in approach.

You hit on one of my pet peeves. The Ruhi method, as I have seen it conducted 
(and as I have heard from most other people), *is*, IMO, fundamentalist, and I 
am concerned it is being promoted by the International Teaching Center and the 
Continental Counsellors. As I have said before, I hope that the ITC is not 
morphing into something like the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: ruhi in ireland

Hi Mark, 

Oh dear. This could easily end in a pro-contra ruhi debate. When I hear objections to things I always want to try to assess how much of these objections are based in truth. The same when I hear glorification of things. 
how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? 

I want to ask you something but I do not want to say this on a public forum. Can I email you privately? 

much love, 

janine

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Janine,At 10:31 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:and it is too fundamentalistic in approach.You hit on one of my pet peeves. The Ruhi method, as I have seen it conducted (and as I have heard from most other people), *is*, IMO, fundamentalist, and I am concerned it is being promoted by the International Teaching Center and the Continental Counsellors. As I have said before, I hope that the ITC is not morphing into something like the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscri!
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Re: ruhi in ireland

2005-01-17 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  The same when I hear glorification of things. 
  how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the 
  ruhi books, who have done more than one? 

Dear Janine, 

If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not 
continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the 
material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the 
process, I would think. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: ruhi in ireland

Hi Susan,

well, I am not sure that most people are turned off by book one here in Ireland for a start. I am sure that a lot of people who are bahais for a while initially have a bias against book one, until the method is explained to them. and why the repetition is. That is so in Europe, that is so in Ireland.

What I am suspecting from being on the internet and being exposed to the english sections of the internet having a huge representation of people from the USA, also Bahai lists etc. is that because the USA is such a vast country with one major official language, which has never been invaded by another country and where if people go to Canada they still are exposed to the same language and the same food and the same cultural background, there is a great possibility that people take what they see in their surroundings as being world wide the case, the truth and forget to subject their conclusions to critical examination.

It is easy to reject something new when it does not conform with your ideas. However, when it starts to have positive results it is difficult to reject it again.

I feel I have the right to say this. The culture in Ireland is vastly different from the culture in the Netherlands or even the culture of New Zealand, where I lived for nine months. I grew up in the Netherlands. I moved to Ireland 7 years ago. I had a big culture shock there and was inclined to criticise and reject all things not in accordance with my culture. But you know what? there is a lot of good in the Irish approach as well. That is what I have discovered.

And I am wondering if this cannot be said of Ruhi. That we are used to do things in a certain way and are thrown and prone to reject it when a new way of doing things is offered to us. Especially if we live in a culture, like i get the feeling the USA has as one mainstream subculture, which rejects academic learning and academic approach.

much love,

janine
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The same when I hear glorification of things.
how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one?

Dear Janine,

If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the process, I would think.

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Re: ruhi in ireland, addition.

I forgot one thing.

I want to ask you all, both in favour and those not in favour of ruhi, how sure you are you are objective, you follow the tablet of the true seeker in this and how ready you are to throw preconceived ideas and notions overboard. It is a question I invite you to ask yourself. My sole aim in life has always been to find out as much as I can about truth. I am in the habit of looking critically at my own opinions regularly, and hold them in the light of the writings as I understand them, in the hope that I may see more truth. And it is also in that motivation that I asked the question at the beginning of this paragraph, because some of you may not have thought of doing this before. We all are prone to take our view for granted and take that which confirms our view as truth, and overlooking that which may point out that it is not totally truth.

my present stance with ruhi is: first at last people get together in greater number to focus together on the texts of the bahai faith. Hurray! at last a little bit of what I have been craving for is happening: sharing ideas and interpretations. And people getting into the habit of reading the writings and thinking for themselves. Because that is what I have seen happening. I was appalled again at the lack of knowledge, basic factual knowledge, by bahais of many years, and those who were reared in the Bahai faith, and the amount of kitab-i-hearsay. At least Ruhi is doing something about that.

second: i have not seen yetevidence that it creates a fundamentalistic approach. I have not yet seen great success in Ireland either (don't know about other western countries). I have not yet seen that it discourages people from arriving at their own interpretation of the writings. So I am willing to give it a couple of years, and see where it will bring the Bahai community, both locally, nationally and internationally.

much love,

janine

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The same when I hear glorification of things.
how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one?

Dear Janine,

RE: ruhi in ireland