Re: Why 95
That is very interesting. Thank you. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Why 95 In a message dated 1/9/2004 6:45:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is "Lel-Lah" the origin of the name "Leyla"in the stories of Leyla andMajnun?No, Layla means midnight. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Why 95
There are several reasons why number 95 is significant in the Bahai writings. However the most significant one in my IMHO is the following: The Abjad numerical value of the word Lel-Lah, meaning for God, is equivalent to 95. Therefore Bahais repeat the blessed phrase Allahu-Abha 95 times a day as a reminder that what we do should be for God and not for selfish reasons such as personal gain or recognition or fear of punishment. It is the motive behind our actions that counts not the action itself We remind ourselves each day that God is Glorious and we observe His laws for the Love of God, which is the same as the love of the Manifestation of God, as we are told in the Kitab-i-Aqdas Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty. Regards. Jilla _ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why 95
In a message dated 1/9/2004 6:45:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is "Lel-Lah" the origin of the name "Leyla"in the stories of Leyla and Majnun? No, Layla means midnight. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why do we hark back to a bygone era continually in order to discuss ideas...
In a message dated 12/15/2003 1:48:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "O listeners, know that the purpose of telling the story of this person and others like him is to give encouragement to the sympathisers in order to arise in the service of His cause. It also serves to punish the neglectful by reminding that this Cause was not futile, and groups of commoners did not volunteer to be massacred in vain." --Haji Mirza Jani Kashani - Nuqtat-ul-Kaaf pp 196 Kashani probably didn't write the Nuqtatu'l-Kaf. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
Dear Marlene, The main reason I stopped posting a few months back is because I ended up regretting half my posts because they were not well thought out, so I felt it more appropriate to observe silence. I am getting that feeling acutely again. My post was misplaced because it followed so closely upon the discussion as to whether or not people afflicted with their disease deserved their disease. I could not agree with you more that the idea that HIV positive patients deserve their disease is disgusting. (My other life is that of a physician who has many close and warm friendships with people suffering from these illnesses.) I also do not believe that there is any support in the Writings for such a view (thankfully!)- the judgemental view that you and I both deplore. The point I tried to make is that the Writings do occasionally express naturalistic events in a metaphorical way as coming from God. I think the idea here is that God is the causer of causes and that everything that happens is part of His Will. My post was a feeble attempt to merge these metaphorical expressions with naturalistic explanations on some level. Thank you, Marlene, for the integrity and intelligence of your posts. I will keep reading them with interest! Kendal -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
Hi all, I feel I want to put my two cents in here - although I may regret it:) I am not much of a scholar so I can't provide chapter and verse but, if I recall correctly - There is a Baha'i scripture that offers a perspective that might be helpful. It says to the effect That which appears to be wrath may in fact be the tenderest of mercy and that which appears to be mercy may in fact be the fiercest of wrath. From my understanding - for what it is worth - When people receive nasty consequences for their incorrect choices, they have an opportunity to learn. In the case of 'sin' they have an opportunity to repent. (In may book that doesn't mean guilt it means stop doing that.) If they receive no consequences in this world, they don't have the same opportunity to change the choice, they may not review the choice and they may receive far more serious spiritual damage as a result of continuing to make spiritually damaging choices. As for the suffering of the innocent - this is usually the consequence of social choices made by other individuals or societies at large. The purpose is likely to be to soften the 'harder' hearts and hopefully to move them toward compassion. AIDS is a good example - so many people were so busy blaming the victims of this disease that no resources were made available to deal with the problem. This changed only when 'innocent' people started becoming infected. It is still a very thorny issue for judgmental people who are torn between wanting to blame the 'guilty' and wanting to save the 'innocent'. We as a society apparently need a review of a Christian lesson Judge not that ye may not be judged. I hope this helps. Sheila --- Kendal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Marlene, The main reason I stopped posting a few months back is because I ended up regretting half my posts because they were not well thought out, so I felt it more appropriate to observe silence. I am getting that feeling acutely again. My post was misplaced because it followed so closely upon the discussion as to whether or not people afflicted with their disease deserved their disease. I could not agree with you more that the idea that HIV positive patients deserve their disease is disgusting. (My other life is that of a physician who has many close and warm friendships with people suffering from these illnesses.) I also do not believe that there is any support in the Writings for such a view (thankfully!)- the judgemental view that you and I both deplore. The point I tried to make is that the Writings do occasionally express naturalistic events in a metaphorical way as coming from God. I think the idea here is that God is the causer of causes and that everything that happens is part of His Will. My post was a feeble attempt to merge these metaphorical expressions with naturalistic explanations on some level. Thank you, Marlene, for the integrity and intelligence of your posts. I will keep reading them with interest! Kendal -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public) __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
There have been some good points made in this discussion. I personally think that Abdu'l-Baha's statements on retribution should be taken at face value. How then do you deal with Marleen's objections? I think the answer is simple. It is mankind that is being punished. The individual(s) are 'chosen' according to the laws of nature. We need to remember also that many times the lifestyle choice is made not by the individual afflicted, but another or others that the individual likely does not even know. Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
It makes no more sense to assume some people deserve their illnesses than it does to assume some criminals deserve to get away with their crimes just because they escape detection and justice. Dr Chase, I agree with you wholeheartedly and please dont interpret what I am about to write as suggesting that people who get disease are incurring the wrath of God in any fundamentalist or ignorant sense. Clearly, though, many illnesses are incurred because of peoples choices. Most of the lifestyle habits- smoking, alcohol, drug use, sexual promiscuity...etc- that are at the core of our public health problems are also against divine law. In a metaphorical sense, one could say that these diseases are punishment for people's actions, if we understand punishment to be what happens to you if you engage in activities that are outside the natural order. In this metaphorical sense, divine reward and punishment is embedded into the natural order of things. If we understand nature to be an expression of the Will of God, then we can also understand, in a metaphorical sense, that things which- by their nature- lead to disease and illness, as being the wrath of God. It seems to me that there are passages in the Writings which do use terms like the decree of God or the wrath of God as being expressions of the natural order (which itself is an expression of the will of God). Kendal -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
Kendal wrote: please dont interpret what I am about to write as suggesting that people who get disease are incurring the wrath of God in any fundamentalist or ignorant sense. Clearly, though, many illnesses are incurred because of peoples choices. Most of the lifestyle habits- smoking, alcohol, drug use, sexual promiscuity...etc- that are at the core of our public health problems are also against divine law. Having done HIV laboratory research, I am aware of the implications of public health problems, and I think it is self-evident to everyone that certain choices can affect our health. I intentionally avoided mentioning these choices because I think it opens up a whole new can of worms. As we are all aware, some people have been infected with HIV through blood transfusions--babies, hemophiliacs, hospitalized patients--while others have been infected through drug use and sexual activity. The latter group has been portrayed as blameworthy and deserving of their illness. Yet there are millions of others engaged in the same high risk behaviors that have not become infected. Having met and treated many HIV infected patients who engaged in high risk behaviors, it is difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend how many of these people deserve this infection when there are many others that engage in the same behaviors and are not infected. Similarly, I can think of many sociopaths and white collar professionals that have harmed and continue to harm many without any negative consequences--did they deserve to go unpunished? Are the ones infected truly more blameworthy? I don't think we can pretend to know the mind of God, who is blameworthy and deserving of punishment, without at the same time, making some kind of moral judgment about others, which we have been forbidden to do. In a metaphorical sense, one could say that these diseases are punishment for people's actions, if we understand punishment to be what happens to you if you engage in activities that are outside the natural order. In this metaphorical sense, divine reward and punishment is embedded into the natural order of things. If we understand nature to be an expression of the Will of God, then we can also understand, in a metaphorical sense, that things which- by their nature- lead to disease and illness, as being the wrath of God. I honestly don't understand how these statements can be interpreted or rationalized as anything other than suggesting that people who get disease are incurring the 'wrath of God' in any fundamentalist or ignorant sense, as you mentioned above. The argument based on natural order or law would be more compelling if literally everyone who violated a divine precept was afflicted with illness and everyone who did not violate a divine precept was not afflicted with illness, but this is not what actually happens in the world. It is obviously much more complicated. Perhaps the most important point to be considered is the consequences of holding such beliefs in the face of reality. Could not such beliefs on some level of consciousness justify our not caring or not acting to the same degree than if there were no judgments involved? I can't tell you the number of times I have seen such judgments affect the level of care patients have received, or even the way Bahais are treated in their local communities by their fellow believers and local institutions. Are mentally ill and homosexual Bahais to be blamed for not curing themselves through prayer? And what about those diseases that do not result from the neat public health categories listed above? What should we assume about how cancer, other infectious diseases besides STDs, birth defects, mental illness fit into the natural order of divine reward and punishment, as you have outlined? It seems to me that there are passages in the Writings which do use terms like the decree of God or the wrath of God as being expressions of the natural order (which itself is an expression of the will of God). Given that such terms appear in the writings, as an act of faith, we accept them. The question is how do we understand or apply them in relation to of our life. This is a question that each of us can only answer for ourselves. My answer is that I accept such pronouncements by God, but I don't presume to understand the reasoning and the judgments behind them. Since I can never achieve omniscience, I can't presume to understand why some people who make particular choices become ill, while others making the same choices don't. I can't presume to understand why good people become ill and seemingly mean people don't. And by not making these presumptions, I try to avoid being judgmental about the complexities of human life that are beyond my limited capacity to comprehend. Sincerely, Marleen -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL
Why?
I have found it useful to think about this passage from the Gospel. It isn't as specific as the words of the Guardian, but it's worth remembering: John 91 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Tim Nolan Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
I don't know if this is helpful but I wrote this as a piece on the problem of theodicy some time back. The diseases and afflictions have changed over the centuries. As our understanding of the disease process improves and newer treatments are initiated, we get better results. What appeared to be a God-sent punishment of the Plague centuries ago is seen as an epidemic nowadays. Many of you probably have read a popular children's book The Velveteen Rabbit. In this book much is said about scarlet fever, which claimed many lives in decades past due to infection caused, by Strep. Even though Strep is still around, a simple antibiotic usually takes care of it nowadays. As our understanding of the disease improves, is it possible that there would be no calamity, no pain, nor suffering? No, the mode of these and their degrees change but these negative things exist as a constituent of the processes of the world of creation. It is engrained in the laws governing the biosphere. It is inherent in the order of the universe. The same environmental stimulus (UV rays) that allows plants to produce energy and survive may produce damage to the nuclear material of a cell and cause cancer. The death of a person by an infection is in fact superior growth of a different life form, namely bacteria. Since diseases can be explained most of the times by physical/biological/biochemical phenomena, it would stand to reason that they occur as part of nature. Fariborz Davoodi, MD -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
Regarding illness, consider Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Wisdom in the Tablets of Baha'u'llah where He states, Nature is God's Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. Disease is part of the natural world, and when linked with contingency, you have a crap shoot. It makes no more sense to assume some people deserve their illnesses than it does to assume some criminals deserve to get away with their crimes just because they escape detection and justice. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Why?
It says in the Writings that mortal illnesses come to people to bring them closer to God. One might expect, therefore, that those getting diseases like cancer would be the ones who really need the spiritual benefit the illness could provide. In other words, the least spiritual people. One would not expect saints to be so afflicted. Speaking from experience, it seems quite random to me who gets these illnesses (note that I'm not talking about illnesses caused by such things as malnutrition or old age). I knew a really good Baha'i who was quite prominent in NZ, and he died quite early because of cancer. He hardly seemed like he needed it, as he was doing better than most spiritually. It seems purely random to me who gets these diseases. I don't think what is said in the Writings has to be interpreted to mean that people who get the diseases do for some reason. I don't see anything that would enable me to predict who might become afflicted, as the good and the bad can be afflicted. Is it purely random? One of the Baha'is in my community had several miscarriages (eventually conceiving) and wondered if God might have made it happen that way to teach her something. It seems to me that such things are totally random, and she simply had particularly bad luck. I don't think God directly intervenes in affairs as much as some Baha'is seem to believe. Is there anything in the Writings that can shed some light on this area? David _ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
David, At 11:08 AM 11/4/2003 +, you wrote: It seems to me that such things are totally random, and she simply had particularly bad luck. I don't think God directly intervenes in affairs as much as some Baha'is seem to believe. Is there anything in the Writings that can shed some light on this area? I don't think we can always determine the reasons for events. Sometimes the best we can do is to try to learn from them and to react virtuously. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Why?
On 11/4/03 11:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It says in the Writings that mortal illnesses come to people to bring them closer to God. snip Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that sinfulness is the sole cause of disease and misfortune. Therefore I understand the statements connecting the two to mean that those who violate God's laws are at a higher risk than if they had not. This does not, to my mind, mean that they are more likely to suffer illness than anyone else. There are many causes of disease. If a person has a genetic predisposition to a disease or ailment and does not alter their lifestyle accordingly, they are more likely to die an early death than the sinfull individual without those characteristics. One of the Baha'is in my community had several miscarriages (eventually conceiving) and wondered if God might have made it happen that way to teach her something. I think it is highly unlikely. Personally I often find such arguments to be very concieted. The basis of them is that the particular individual is so important that God is paying particular attention to them. At the same time, none of us are perfect and therefore there is always a spiritual lesson to be learned from any misfortune. Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. -- You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
