[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Hello Jaroslaw

   I hope things are going well with you.

   When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge."
   Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine and pass
   them separately through the bridge hole?

   This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?

   Best wishes

   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
    a écrit :

   Martin,
   > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   >
   > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   >
   I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it's
   a matter of taste.
   > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   >
   Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.
   Best
   Jaroslaw
   > Martin
   >
   > On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   >> Mimmo,
   >>
   >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
   brighter than plain gut
   >>
   >>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound
   IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer
   than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity
   make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and
   wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >>
   >>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   >>> At present the second option is the winner!
   >> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   >> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   >> Best
   >> Ciao
   >>
   >> Jaroslaw
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>> ciao to all
   >>> Mimmo
   >>>
   >>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
   >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   >>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >>>
   >>> Thanks, Mimmo.
   >>>
   >>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
   >>> strings thinner than .80mm.
   >>>
   >>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
   the
   >>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of
   the
   >>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   >>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me is
   >>> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   >>> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   >>> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   >>> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   >>> elastic would work well.
   >>>
   >>> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
   >>> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
   >>>
   >>> Best to all,
   >>>
   >>> Martin
   >>>
   >>> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
    Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
   
    actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth

   Dear Martyn
 I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a string
   as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while maintaining
   its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by improving
   its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as possible
   for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which it
   moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar processes
   of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also effect
   the way a string resonates.
   Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I also
   apologise.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
    a écrit :

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Anthony Hind ; JarosÅaw Lipski
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
 > I have both KFs and your CDs and 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Martyn

 I tend to see reducing inharmonicity of a string as lowering its
   impedance to bending while maintaining its weight.
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
    a écrit :

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Anthony Hind ; JarosÅaw Lipski
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
 > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have
 shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
 KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
 CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
 and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
 work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
 spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
 >
 >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
 >> At present the second option is the winner!
 > Now, the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ..
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Anthony Hind ; JarosÅaw Lipski
   ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
 question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
 problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
 could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
 something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
 in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
 easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
   to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?
 Best wishes
 Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   [2]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :
 Just to explain:
 When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
 only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
 For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
 will
 not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
 to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
 than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
 Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
 they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
 bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
 probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
 bridge.
 Martin
 On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
 > Mimmo,
 >
 >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
 have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
 was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
 like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
 > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
 brighter than plain gut
 >
 >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
 > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have
 shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
 KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
 CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
 and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
 work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
 spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
 >
 >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
 >> At present the second option is the winner!
 > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
 aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would
 be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little
 bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Martin,

> When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking only 
> about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.

I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th course 
they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion only shows how 
relative our sound perception is.
> 
> For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will not 
> work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff to work.  
> On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger than 1.50mm 
> (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
> 

I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it’s a 
matter of taste. 

> Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where they 
> go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the bridge.  If 
> you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will probably get problems 
> with the strings buzzing against the top of the bridge.
> 

Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.

Best

Jaroslaw


> Martin
> 
> On 03/02/2017 11:39, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Mimmo,
>> 
>>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have 
>>> the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. 
>>> Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and 
>>> then polished. In practice our Venices.
>> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
>> than plain gut
>> 
>>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
>> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have 
>> shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs 
>> work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have 
>> stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very 
>> well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on 
>> instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also 
>> tuning is not ideal.
>> 
>>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
>>> At present the second option is the winner!
>> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
>> finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I 
>> am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer 
>> string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer 
>> longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll 
>> ask.
>> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would 
>> have to take into consideration your business strategy.
>> Best
>> Ciao
>> 
>> Jaroslaw
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> ciao to all
>>> Mimmo
>>> 
>>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
>>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
>>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Mimmo.
>>> 
>>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
>>> strings thinner than .80mm.
>>> 
>>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
>>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
>>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
>>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
>>> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
>>> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
>>> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
>>> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
>>> elastic would work well.
>>> 
>>> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
>>> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
>>> 
>>> Best to all,
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
 Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
 
 actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also 
 a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
 betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
 I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
 however.
 In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
 I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at 
 all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that 
 are curious.
 
 well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent 
 out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were 
 uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
 Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that 
 additional 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martin Shepherd]

   Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
   question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
   problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
   could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
   something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
   in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
   easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:

 By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
 diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish loaded
 string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing through
 the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly
 to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material
 (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string psses
 over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
 also thin it at the nut?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

 Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
 [2] a écrit :

   Just to explain:
   When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking
   only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will
   not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff
   to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger
   than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
   Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where
   they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
   bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 11:39, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
   > Mimmo,
   >
   >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
   brighter than plain gut
   >
   >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have
   shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO.
   KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on diapasons.
   CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
   and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
   work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string
   spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >
   >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   >> At present the second option is the winner!
   > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   > Best
   > Ciao
   >
   > Jaroslaw
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >> ciao to all
   >> Mimmo
   >>
   >> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
   >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   >> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >>
   >> Thanks, Mimmo.
   >>
   >> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
   >> strings thinner than .80mm.
   >>
   >> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
   the
   >> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of
   the
   >> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   >> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me
   is
   >> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   >> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   >> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   >> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   >> elastic would work well.
   >>
   >> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
   >> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
   >>
   >> Best to all,
   >>
   >> Martin
  

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
    a écrit :

   Just to explain:
   When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking
   only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will
   not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff
   to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger
   than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
   Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where
   they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
   bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   > Mimmo,
   >
   >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are
   brighter than plain gut
   >
   >> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have
   shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
   KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on diapasons.
   CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
   and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
   work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string
   spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >
   >> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   >> At present the second option is the winner!
   > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   > Best
   > Ciao
   >
   > Jaroslaw
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >> ciao to all
   >> Mimmo
   >>
   >> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
   >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   >> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >>
   >> Thanks, Mimmo.
   >>
   >> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
   >> strings thinner than .80mm.
   >>
   >> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In
   the
   >> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of
   the
   >> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   >> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me
   is
   >> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   >> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   >> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   >> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   >> elastic would work well.
   >>
   >> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
   >> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
   >>
   >> Best to all,
   >>
   >> Martin
   >>
   >> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   >>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
   >>>
   >>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
   tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF
   or CDs etc etc.
   >>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD
   types however.
   >>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d
   minor Lutes.
   >>> I have 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martin Shepherd]

Just to explain:

When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking 
only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.


For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will 
not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff 
to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger 
than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.


Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where 
they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the 
bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will 
probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the 
bridge.


Martin

On 03/02/2017 11:39, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Mimmo,


You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the 
contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine is 
a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then 
polished. In practice our Venices.

Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
than plain gut


I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:

I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have shorter 
sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs work well till 
11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have stronger 
fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very well on 
diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on instruments with 
higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.


Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
At present the second option is the winner!

Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I am 
used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer string. If 
someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer sustain. So 
the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would have 
to take into consideration your business strategy.
Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw





ciao to all
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Thanks, Mimmo.

I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
strings thinner than .80mm.

The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
elastic would work well.

I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.

Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a 
stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction betweenj 
pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types however.
In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all to 
use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are curious.

well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out to 
some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. 
Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional 
option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher 
working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.

said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the performances 
are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more elasticity. You 
probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others parameters at work 
here, for example the inner damping effect is one of them, and it  is not 
related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for example why a special kind 
of nylon, whose density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It 
was a huge surprise to me!

I am 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Thanks Jaroslaw,
good report indeed.
Actually I have not in mind the business side, it is  just  my love for such 
instrument,  passion, i mean.


In short, I would like to do something that is 'emotional'.  Hared toi 
explain, it is something related to me and my feel when I hear a Lute. The 
Bacon writting is almost  clear to me and i feel in this way.


Said that, it is very interesting your comparation of the CD's with the KF 
ones and with the Venices
I am thinking that these CD's are  to much performant  than the necessity. 
So I am going to prefere the second option: at the end of the day it solve 
also a lot of meccanical problems


Mille grazie
Mimmo

(thanks Anthony)

-Messaggio originale- 
From: Jarosław Lipski

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 11:39 AM
To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Mimmo,

You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have 
the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was 
done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as 
rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.


Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
than plain gut



I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:


I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have 
shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs 
work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have 
stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very 
well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on 
instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also 
tuning is not ideal.




Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
At present the second option is the winner!


Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I 
am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer 
string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer 
longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll 
ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would 
have to take into consideration your business strategy.

Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw





ciao to all
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Thanks, Mimmo.

I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
strings thinner than .80mm.

The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
elastic would work well.

I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.

Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also 
a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
however.
In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor 
Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at 
all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that 
are curious.


well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent 
out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were 
uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that 
additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can 
works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.


said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are 
others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is 
one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This 
explain for example why a special kind of nylon, 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Francesco Tribioli]

> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at
> finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better.
I am
> used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer
string. If
> someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer
> sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you'll ask.

I think that if one played only overwound strings he does not really need
loaded synthetic and can continue with wound strings. In my opinion, the CD
should be a replacement for the loaded gut strings, which are too expensive
to produce in all the calibers needed by lutenists. I would vote for the
second option or anything that goes close to the sound and sustain of loaded
gut basses.

Francesco



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Mimmo,

> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the 
> contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine 
> is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then 
> polished. In practice our Venices.

Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
than plain gut

> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:

I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have shorter 
sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs work well till 
11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have stronger 
fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very well on 
diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on instruments with 
higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.

> 
> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
> At present the second option is the winner!

Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I am 
used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer string. If 
someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer sustain. So 
the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would have 
to take into consideration your business strategy.
Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw




> ciao to all
> Mimmo
> 
> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
> Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> 
> Thanks, Mimmo.
> 
> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
> strings thinner than .80mm.
> 
> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
> elastic would work well.
> 
> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Martin
> 
> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
>> 
>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a 
>> stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
>> betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
>> however.
>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all 
>> to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are 
>> curious.
>> 
>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out 
>> to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. 
>> Despite that I had very good reports.
>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional 
>> option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher 
>> working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.
>> 
>> said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks
>> 
>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
>> performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
>> elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others 
>> parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of 
>> them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for 
>> example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than 
>> fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!
>> 
>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even better, 
>> it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ 
>> grooves.
>> 
>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the 
>> ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The 
>> first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same 
>> way.
>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do 
>> some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works 
>> in the proper way
>> Be patient 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing

[Anthony Hind]

   Personally I love the singing sustain of the ones I have on my lute
   now, but for many lutenists the elasticity is difficult to deal with,
   both in terms of how it calls for a change in playing technique, and
   also how they tend to stick on the nut. However, I also loved my loaded
   Venice gut, so the second option is also alright with me. Trueness of
   string is of course necessary, but possibly difficult to predict. I
   suppose it may be difficult to obtain even or homogenous mixtures of
   polymer and copper, sometimes just necessary to select the best ones?
   But I suppose the traditional testing between stretched hands (or
   similar) won't work for very elastic strings? I may have been very
   lucky as all mine were very true.

   Best wishes

   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 8:50 AM, Rob MacKillop
    a écrit :

   Second option for me.
   Rob MacKillop
   > On 3 Feb 2017, at 07:29, Mimmo Peruffo <[2]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
   wrote:
   >
   >  Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   >  Unfortunately i cannot do it
   >  I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
   >  This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
   >  like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already
   stressed
   >  by me!
   >
   >  I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
   >  string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
   >  stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better
   to
   >  switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
   >  stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
   >  Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
   >  second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
   >  Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
   >
   >  Strings or not to strings? this is the question
   >
   >  ah ah
   >  (my poor english at work)
   >  Ciao
   >  Mimmo
   >
   >  ps
   >  which are your suggestion guys?
   >
   >
   >
   >  -Messaggio originale-
   >  From: Arto Wikla
   >  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
   >  To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   >
   >  Dear Mimmo,
   >
   >  if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
   >  hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original
   elastic
   >  version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
   >  arclute, great stuff.
   >
   >  And big thanks for your invaluable work!
   >
   >  Arto
   >
   >>  On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   >> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer
   >  ones.
   >> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made
   of
   >  gut.
   >> I will do some samples in advance.
   >> Mimmo
   >
   >
   >
   >  To get on or off this list see list information at
   >  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >  --
   >

   --

References

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Ok martin
to say all: I have already tried  such stiffer 'rubbers' (ah ah): increasing 
the stiffness at the same metal powder quantity the sound became step by 
step darker with less sustain. Using the most elastic 'rubber' the sound 
open a lot but the string became too stretchly.
You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the 
contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine 
is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then 
polished. In practice our Venices.
I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation: some of you 
guys are by chance at the mandolino meeting in London so you can show one to 
me? This make things faster


Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
At present the second option is the winner!
ciao to all
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale- 
From: Martin Shepherd

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Thanks, Mimmo.

I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
strings thinner than .80mm.

The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
elastic would work well.

I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.

Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also 
a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
however.
In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor 
Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at 
all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that 
are curious.


well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent 
out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were 
uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that 
additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can 
works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.


said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are 
others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is 
one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This 
explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less 
than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!


I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even 
better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the 
nut slots/ grooves.


False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the 
ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. 
The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the 
same way.
well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will 
do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually 
works in the proper way

Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.

I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when
notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as an open
string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets.
If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem,
they're too high.

I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the
same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic.  He
did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner
strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martin Shepherd]

Thanks, Mimmo.

I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these 
strings thinner than .80mm.


The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the 
case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the 
same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands 
of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is 
that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string 
stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon 
strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.  
I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially 
elastic would work well.


I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide 
better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.


Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using 
also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl 
trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or 
CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
however.
In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor 
Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense 
at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for 
those that are curious.


well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and 
sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of 
them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that 
additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can 
works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.


said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with 
more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there 
are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping 
effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity 
modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose 
density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a 
huge surprise to me!


I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even 
better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on 
the nut slots/ grooves.


False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  
the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even 
way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done 
exactly in the same way.
well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I 
will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they 
actually works in the proper way

Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.

I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when
notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as an open
string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets.
If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem,
they're too high.

I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the
same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic.  He
did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner
strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can
you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion that the
less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would almost
expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very stiff but
sound bright.

It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with a
string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.   Actually the new
string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.

Best wishes to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:

Dear Mimmo,
In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority 
even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true 
(with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped 
strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well 
set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring 
string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous 
noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but does not 
meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a 
stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
however.

In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all 
to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are 
curious.


well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out 
to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. 
Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional 
option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher 
working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.


said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others 
parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of 
them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for 
example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than 
fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!


I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even better, 
it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ 
grooves.


False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the 
ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The 
first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same 
way.
well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do 
some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works 
in the proper way

Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale- 
From: Martin Shepherd

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.

I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when
notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as an open
string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets.
If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem,
they're too high.

I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the
same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic.  He
did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner
strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can
you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion that the
less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would almost
expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very stiff but
sound bright.

It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with a
string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.   Actually the new
string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.

Best wishes to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:

Dear Mimmo,
In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even 
before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no 
problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and 
secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it 
must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against 
the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous noises. If a string has the 
potential to sound wonderful but does not meet these two criteria, then it 
is of no use whatsoever.
Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a 
full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a 
pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and 
sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise 
fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.

Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
Fingers crossed!
Best
Matthew





On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo  wrote:

   Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   Unfortunately i cannot do it
   I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
   This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
   like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already 
stressed

   by me!

   I should do a choice and in fast time: 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martin Shepherd]

Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.

I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when 
notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as an open 
string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets.  
If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem, 
they're too high.


I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the 
same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic.  He 
did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner 
strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can 
you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion that the 
less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would almost 
expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very stiff but 
sound bright.


It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with a 
string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.   Actually the new 
string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.


Best wishes to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:

Dear Mimmo,
In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even before 
judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no problems of 
intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and secondly it has to 
be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, 
buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any 
other extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but 
does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a full-bodied 
and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a pleasure and the 
instrument to sing to the best of its ability and sufficient power to provide 
convincing projection and resonance.
Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise fundamentals and 
enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.
Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
Fingers crossed!
Best
Matthew





On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo  wrote:

   Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   Unfortunately i cannot do it
   I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
   This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
   like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already stressed
   by me!

   I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
   string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
   stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better to
   switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
   stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
   Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
   second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
   Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.

   Strings or not to strings? this is the question

   ah ah
   (my poor english at work)
   Ciao
   Mimmo

   ps
   which are your suggestion guys?



   -Messaggio originale-
   From: Arto Wikla
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
   To: Mimmo Peruffo ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

   Dear Mimmo,

   if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
   hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic
   version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
   arclute, great stuff.

   And big thanks for your invaluable work!

   Arto


   On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer

   ones.

at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of

   gut.

I will do some samples in advance.
Mimmo



   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Matthew Daillie]

Dear Mimmo,
In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even before 
judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no problems of 
intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and secondly it has to 
be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, 
buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any 
other extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but 
does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a full-bodied 
and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a pleasure and the 
instrument to sing to the best of its ability and sufficient power to provide 
convincing projection and resonance.
Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise fundamentals and 
enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.
Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
Fingers crossed!
Best
Matthew




> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo  wrote:
> 
>   Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
>   Unfortunately i cannot do it
>   I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
>   This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
>   like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already stressed
>   by me!
> 
>   I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
>   string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
>   stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better to
>   switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
>   stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
>   Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
>   second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
>   Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
> 
>   Strings or not to strings? this is the question
> 
>   ah ah
>   (my poor english at work)
>   Ciao
>   Mimmo
> 
>   ps
>   which are your suggestion guys?
> 
> 
> 
>   -Messaggio originale-
>   From: Arto Wikla
>   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
>   To: Mimmo Peruffo ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> 
>   Dear Mimmo,
> 
>   if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
>   hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic
>   version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
>   arclute, great stuff.
> 
>   And big thanks for your invaluable work!
> 
>   Arto
> 
>>   On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
>> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer
>   ones.
>> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of
>   gut.
>> I will do some samples in advance.
>> Mimmo
> 
> 
> 
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Once again Mimmo, many thanks for all your efforts and for taking the
   trouble to listen to us out here!
   I much liked your old loaded gut and I still have some on various lutes
   (including the 6th course of a large theorbo where it smooths the
   transition to the long basses). Close to these earlier loaded strings
   would be my choice but they should certainly not be less dull or less
   sustain than these. If in doubt perhaps a mixing of the two ingredients
   if this is possible? Sorry to add to your choices.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Mimmo Peruffo 
   To: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 7:29
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
 Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
 Unfortunately i cannot do it
 I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
 This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
 like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already
   stressed
 by me!
 I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
 string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
 stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better
   to
 switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
 stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
 Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
 second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
 Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
 Strings or not to strings? this is the question
 ah ah
 (my poor english at work)
 Ciao
 Mimmo
 ps
 which are your suggestion guys?
 -Messaggio originale-
 From: Arto Wikla
 Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
 To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [1]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
 Dear Mimmo,
 if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
 hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic
 version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
 arclute, great stuff.
 And big thanks for your invaluable work!
 Arto
 On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
 > Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer
 ones.
 > at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made
   of
 gut.
 > I will do some samples in advance.
 > Mimmo
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html