Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-16 Thread John Wobus

If CloudFlare is similar to Akamai's solution, recursive servers never
see the CNAME record.  Instead, when the auth server receives the  
query

for the A record of the apex, it performs its own query for the CNAME,
and returns the result of this.


In other words, if your theory is correct, this CNAME
is window dressing for the customer (yes, they gave me a
CNAME, I'm happy!) while actually they serve A records
that they've specified to give the same answer as whatever
address the A record of such-and-such name has.  What they
present in their customer interface or store in their
zone-file-equivalent is arbitrary.

Makes DNSSEC interesting.

It's always helpful to be able to tell your customer yes, we gave
you a CNAME, just like you asked for.  We do it even if our competitors
say no!

John Wobus

P.S. Hm, I wonder if a TLD will give me a three part CNAME:
if they've given me example.com. CNAME foo, will they also give
me www.example.com. CNAME foo?

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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-10 Thread Mark Andrews

In message CAA3U4eO=EbKB2ECSS4F1=ff22rpk2xcbp7qdua3autxxap8...@mail.gmail.com
, =?UTF-8?B?6aOO5rKz?= writes:
 2011/12/10 Lightner, Jeff jlight...@water.com:
  Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?
 
 
 Some nameservers can setup that, though it's breaking the RFC.
 
 quote:
 Never one to let a RFC stand in the way of a solution to a real
 problem, we're happy to announce that CloudFlare allows you to set
 your zone apex to a CNAME. This allows CloudFlare users to host on
 EC2, Rackspace's Cloud, Google App Engine, or other cloud hosts and
 use their naked domain (e.g., yourdomain.com) without forcing a hack
 solution to a subdomain (e.g., www.yourdomain.com).
 
 http://blog.cloudflare.com/zone-apex-naked-domain-root-domain-cname-supp

While you can change what a authoritative server allows the real
problem is what recursive servers do when they have a CNAME record
in the cache you you actually want resolvers to see the other records
that live beside the CNAME.

RFC 1034:
The domain system provides such a feature using the canonical name
(CNAME) RR.  A CNAME RR identifies its owner name as an alias, and
specifies the corresponding canonical name in the RDATA section of the
RR.  If a CNAME RR is present at a node, no other data should be
present; this ensures that the data for a canonical name and its aliases
cannot be different.  This rule also insures that a cached CNAME can be
used without checking with an authoritative server for other RR types.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-10 Thread Barry Margolin
In article mailman.507.1323556030.68562.bind-us...@lists.isc.org,
 Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote:

 In message 
 CAA3U4eO=EbKB2ECSS4F1=ff22rpk2xcbp7qdua3autxxap8...@mail.gmail.com
 , =?UTF-8?B?6aOO5rKz?= writes:
  2011/12/10 Lightner, Jeff jlight...@water.com:
   Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?
  
  
  Some nameservers can setup that, though it's breaking the RFC.
  
  quote:
  Never one to let a RFC stand in the way of a solution to a real
  problem, we're happy to announce that CloudFlare allows you to set
  your zone apex to a CNAME. This allows CloudFlare users to host on
  EC2, Rackspace's Cloud, Google App Engine, or other cloud hosts and
  use their naked domain (e.g., yourdomain.com) without forcing a hack
  solution to a subdomain (e.g., www.yourdomain.com).
  
  http://blog.cloudflare.com/zone-apex-naked-domain-root-domain-cname-supp
 
 While you can change what a authoritative server allows the real
 problem is what recursive servers do when they have a CNAME record
 in the cache you you actually want resolvers to see the other records
 that live beside the CNAME.

If CloudFlare is similar to Akamai's solution, recursive servers never 
see the CNAME record.  Instead, when the auth server receives the query 
for the A record of the apex, it performs its own query for the CNAME, 
and returns the result of this.

-- 
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-10 Thread Ken Peng
2011/12/11 Barry Margolin bar...@alum.mit.edu:


 If CloudFlare is similar to Akamai's solution, recursive servers never
 see the CNAME record.  Instead, when the auth server receives the query
 for the A record of the apex, it performs its own query for the CNAME,
 and returns the result of this.


That hears interesting.
But if the remote auth server for the CNAME has multi-views, and
return different IPs based on the different clients, then this
solution maybe not work as expected.

Regards.
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-10 Thread Mark Andrews

In message barmar-072f49.19202810122...@news.eternal-september.org, Barry Mar
golin writes:
 In article mailman.507.1323556030.68562.bind-us...@lists.isc.org,
  Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote:
 
  In message 
  CAA3U4eO=EbKB2ECSS4F1=ff22rpk2xcbp7qdua3autxxap8...@mail.gmail.com
  , =?UTF-8?B?6aOO5rKz?= writes:
   2011/12/10 Lightner, Jeff jlight...@water.com:
Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?
   
   
   Some nameservers can setup that, though it's breaking the RFC.
   
   quote:
   Never one to let a RFC stand in the way of a solution to a real
   problem, we're happy to announce that CloudFlare allows you to set
   your zone apex to a CNAME. This allows CloudFlare users to host on
   EC2, Rackspace's Cloud, Google App Engine, or other cloud hosts and
   use their naked domain (e.g., yourdomain.com) without forcing a hack
   solution to a subdomain (e.g., www.yourdomain.com).
   
   http://blog.cloudflare.com/zone-apex-naked-domain-root-domain-cname-supp
  
  While you can change what a authoritative server allows the real
  problem is what recursive servers do when they have a CNAME record
  in the cache you you actually want resolvers to see the other records
  that live beside the CNAME.
 
 If CloudFlare is similar to Akamai's solution, recursive servers never 
 see the CNAME record.  Instead, when the auth server receives the query 
 for the A record of the apex, it performs its own query for the CNAME, 
 and returns the result of this.
 
The service provider could just push out signed address records
changes using UPDATE which would work with all vendors.  It's not
like they don't know the addresses or which sites are being serviced.

The real problem is that WC3 hasn't taken up SRV records or asked
for something more specific.  CNAME was *never* the right solution
for this.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-10 Thread Barry Margolin
In article mailman.510.1323563868.68562.bind-us...@lists.isc.org,
 Ken Peng short...@gmail.com wrote:

 2011/12/11 Barry Margolin bar...@alum.mit.edu:
 
 
  If CloudFlare is similar to Akamai's solution, recursive servers never
  see the CNAME record.  Instead, when the auth server receives the query
  for the A record of the apex, it performs its own query for the CNAME,
  and returns the result of this.
 
 
 That hears interesting.
 But if the remote auth server for the CNAME has multi-views, and
 return different IPs based on the different clients, then this
 solution maybe not work as expected.

True.  Akamai generally only uses it for domains that point to their 
hosting/caching infrastructure.  The apex points to a server that sends 
an HTTP redirect to the www hostname, which is a real CNAME to Akamai's 
domain, so then their GLSB logic is invoked.

-- 
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
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CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Lightner, Jeff
Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?

The request I got is to create a CNAME to point shop4water.com to 
shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com.

We own shop4water.com – hostedbywebstore.com is something external that we 
don’t own.

I’ve reviewed past posts and searched the internet.  I see things saying “you 
can’t have CNAME only” or “you can” or “you should use DNAME instead” and then 
others saying that “you can’t use CNAME or DNAME with any other record and the 
SOA itself is a record”.

So my basic question is:   Is it possible to do this?  If so what should the 
zone file for shop4water.com look like?   Is there another way to make queries 
for shop4water.com go to shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com?











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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Phil Mayers

On 09/12/11 16:25, Lightner, Jeff wrote:

Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?


This comes up a lot, it seems.

No. CNAME conflicts with any other record - including the SOA and NS 
records required at the apex.


You will have to put an A record at the apex.
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RE: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Lightner, Jeff
I don't know what you mean by that.  Apex of what exactly - my zone file?

I can make a zone file that simply has a CNAME in it with no SOA, serial number 
etc...?

As noted I do not own the target zone so I can't update any records there.

Can you tell me exactly what the zone file should look like with the CNAME 
record at the apex?







-Original Message-
From: bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org 
[mailto:bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org] On Behalf Of Phil 
Mayers
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 11:41 AM
To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Subject: Re: CNAME only zone?

On 09/12/11 16:25, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
 Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?

This comes up a lot, it seems.

No. CNAME conflicts with any other record - including the SOA and NS
records required at the apex.

You will have to put an A record at the apex.
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Phil Mayers

On 09/12/11 16:55, Lightner, Jeff wrote:

I don't know what you mean by that.  Apex of what exactly - my zone file?


The zone is a tree. The records at the apex of the zone are those with 
the same name as the zone - normally the SOA, NS, MX, and other records.


Since all zones must have a SOA and NS at the apex, and CNAME is 
incompatible with any other record at the same name (except RRSIG/NSEC), 
you cannot have a CNAME at the apex.




I can make a zone file that simply has a CNAME in it with no SOA, serial number 
etc...?


No. You can't. Such zone files are syntactically invalid, and will not 
be loaded by bind. This is easy to try e.g.


test.zone.	300	SOA	ns.test.zone. hostmaster.test.zone. 100 2700 1800 
3600 3600

test.zone.  300 NS  ns.test.zone.
test.zone.  300 CNAME   www.other.zone.
ns.test.zone.   300 A   192.0.2.1


# named-checkzone test.zone $FILE
dns_master_load: z:3: test.zone: CNAME and other data
dns_master_load: z:3: test.zone: CNAME and other data
zone test.zone/IN: loading from master file z failed: CNAME and other data
zone test.zone/IN: not loaded due to errors.



As noted I do not own the target zone so I can't update any records there.

Can you tell me exactly what the zone file should look like with the CNAME record at the 
apex?


As noted above, such a zone is invalid.

You *can* do this:

test.zone.	300	SOA	ns.test.zone. hostmaster.test.zone. 100 2700 1800 
3600 3600

test.zone.  300 NS  ns.test.zone.
test.zone.  300 A   192.0.2.2 ; the IP of www.other.zone
ns.test.zone.   300 A   192.0.2.1

i.e. put an A record at the zone apex, with the IP of the other 
server. It does mean you need a script / process in place to update the 
A record if the name

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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Jan-Piet Mens
 I don't know what you mean by that.  Apex of what exactly - my zone
 file?  Can you tell me exactly what the zone file should look like
 with the CNAME record at the apex?

Determine the address(es) for the target domain name
shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com (I'm using 127.0.0.1 as an example),
and add each to an A record in the zone, which should look a bit like
this:

$TTL 3600
@   IN  SOA shop4water.com. root.shop4water.com.  (
1  ; serial 
3H  ; refresh 
1H  ; retry 
1W  ; expiry 
1H ); negTTL 
IN  NS  ns7.worldnic.com.
IN  NS  ns8.worldnic.com.
IN  A   127.0.0.1   ; replace w/ IP of target

As Phill said, a CNAME instead of the A record is illegal at the apex
(i.e. the top) of the zone; CNAME must not exist with other data e.g. NS
or SOA records, which are mandatory for a zone.

Hope that helps.

-JP
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Phil Mayers

On 09/12/11 17:08, Phil Mayers wrote:


i.e. put an A record at the zone apex, with the IP of the other
server. It does mean you need a script / process in place to update the
A record if the name


...blast.

if the IP of the other server changes
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread /dev/rob0
On Friday 09 December 2011 10:25:36 Lightner, Jeff wrote:
 Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?

As already answered, no.

 The request I got is to create a CNAME to point shop4water.com to
 shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com.

You can ask your registrar if they can/will do this in the parent 
com. zone. I have seen ugliness of this type from either Network 
Solutions or register.com before, not sure which.

 We own shop4water.com – hostedbywebstore.com is something external
 that we don’t own.

Do note that hostedbywebtstore is not the same as hostedbywebstore; 
we're sticklers for precise spelling.

Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem in a 
better way.
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RE: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Lightner, Jeff
Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem in a better way.

Care to enlighten me as to what those workarounds would be?

Also - why is it a registrar can do a CNAME only but we mere mortals can't?  In 
fact documentation from Amazon (it is apparently their web store I've since 
learned) suggests doing it at registrar so I'll probably go that route but I'm 
wondering why it should work there but not on one of my delegated name servers.





-Original Message-
From: bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org 
[mailto:bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org] On Behalf Of 
/dev/rob0
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Subject: Re: CNAME only zone?

On Friday 09 December 2011 10:25:36 Lightner, Jeff wrote:
 Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?

As already answered, no.

 The request I got is to create a CNAME to point shop4water.com to
 shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com.

You can ask your registrar if they can/will do this in the parent
com. zone. I have seen ugliness of this type from either Network
Solutions or register.com before, not sure which.

 We own shop4water.com - hostedbywebstore.com is something external
 that we don't own.

Do note that hostedbywebtstore is not the same as hostedbywebstore;
we're sticklers for precise spelling.

Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem in a
better way.
--
Offlist mail to this address is discarded unless
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread /dev/rob0
Please do not top-post. Thank you.

On Friday 09 December 2011 11:52:58 Lightner, Jeff wrote:
 Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem
 in a better way.
 
 Care to enlighten me as to what those workarounds would be?

Not knowing the exact situation puts me at a distinct handicap in 
trying to do so, but I can suggest some possibilities beyond what was 
suggested by Jan-Piet and Phil.

- A cron job to look up the desired name and nsupdate(8) the A
  record for shop4water.com. when that address changes
- HTTP redirects, or just a redirect for shop4water.com to point to
  your desired CNAME target; www.shop4water.com *can* be a CNAME.
- Find different hosting.

 Also - why is it a registrar can do a CNAME only but we mere
 mortals can't?

Only approved registrars are allowed to update records in official 
top-level domains. You can make as many CNAME records as you like, 
playing by the rule that a CNAME cannot coexist with a record of the 
same name and any other RRtype.

Registrars are also bound by the reality of DNS. If you want a CNAME, 
they do not delegate the zone to you. They remove any NS records which 
had been in place for your zone, and your nameservers are no longer in 
use for that name. In fact by not being delegated, it ceases to be a 
zone.

 In fact documentation from Amazon (it is
 apparently their web store I've since learned) suggests doing it
 at registrar so I'll probably go that route but I'm wondering why
 it should work there but not on one of my delegated name servers.

Phil answered this, but to restate/repeat, a delegated zone *must* 
have SOA and NS records at the zone apex. Meaning: if shop4water.com 
is delegated, the parent com zone at a a minimum has NS records for 
shop4water.com, and your zone *must* contain SOA and NS records for 
shop4water.com.

Those SOA and NS violate the rule that a CNAME cannot coexist with a 
record of the same name and any other RRtype.
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RE: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Dixon, Justin
 Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem in a
better
 way.
 
 Care to enlighten me as to what those workarounds would be?


If all the use cases for the CNAME are for http traffic, just configure
an http server/load balancer/etc. under your control to return a 302 or
301 redirect back to the client browser and you maintain control if
needs change in the future.

1. Point DNS A record for shop4water.com to an IP of a webserver under
your control...
2. Use insert your favorite webserver here (using URL Rewrite rules,
perl, etc.) to send a redirect back to the browser to direct them to the
shop4water.hostedbywebstore.com URL.

Depending on whether you want to preserve the URL or not can vary the
type of redirects that you will be configuring but that is fairly simple
to setup on a variety of well known http servers.



 
 Also - why is it a registrar can do a CNAME only but we mere mortals
 can't?  In fact documentation from Amazon (it is apparently their web
 store I've since learned) suggests doing it at registrar so I'll
probably
 go that route but I'm wondering why it should work there but not on
one of
 my delegated name servers.
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bind-users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org
[mailto:bind-
 users-bounces+jlightner=water@lists.isc.org] On Behalf Of
/dev/rob0
 Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 12:41 PM
 To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
 Subject: Re: CNAME only zone?
 
 On Friday 09 December 2011 10:25:36 Lightner, Jeff wrote:
  Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?
 
 As already answered, no.
 
  The request I got is to create a CNAME to point shop4water.com to
  shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com.
 
 You can ask your registrar if they can/will do this in the parent
 com. zone. I have seen ugliness of this type from either Network
 Solutions or register.com before, not sure which.
 
  We own shop4water.com - hostedbywebstore.com is something external
  that we don't own.
 
 Do note that hostedbywebtstore is not the same as hostedbywebstore;
 we're sticklers for precise spelling.
 
 Also note that other workarounds will solve the same problem in a
 better way.
 --
 Offlist mail to this address is discarded unless
 /dev/rob0 or not-spam is in Subject: header
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 bind-users@lists.isc.org
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 Athena(r), Created for the Cause(tm)
 Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
 
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 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or
confidential
 information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If
you
 are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution,
or
 use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be
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 If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please
reply
 immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error,
and
 delete it. Thank you.
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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Matus UHLAR - fantomas

On Friday 09 December 2011 10:25:36 Lightner, Jeff wrote:

The request I got is to create a CNAME to point shop4water.com to
shop4water.hostedbywebtstore.com.


On 09.12.11 11:41, /dev/rob0 wrote:

You can ask your registrar if they can/will do this in the parent
com. zone. I have seen ugliness of this type from either Network
Solutions or register.com before, not sure which.


Note that there still may be servers that have configured .com as 
delegation-only and thus it won't work there.


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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread Matus UHLAR - fantomas

On 09.12.11 17:52, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
Also - why is it a registrar can do a CNAME only but we mere mortals 
can't?


Because if you want CNAME, you must put it directly to he .com zone 
what mere mortals just can not.

And I wonder if any registrar allows that.

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Re: CNAME only zone?

2011-12-09 Thread 风河
2011/12/10 Lightner, Jeff jlight...@water.com:
 Is it possible to create a zone file that only contains a CNAME?


Some nameservers can setup that, though it's breaking the RFC.

quote:
Never one to let a RFC stand in the way of a solution to a real
problem, we're happy to announce that CloudFlare allows you to set
your zone apex to a CNAME. This allows CloudFlare users to host on
EC2, Rackspace's Cloud, Google App Engine, or other cloud hosts and
use their naked domain (e.g., yourdomain.com) without forcing a hack
solution to a subdomain (e.g., www.yourdomain.com).

http://blog.cloudflare.com/zone-apex-naked-domain-root-domain-cname-supp


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