Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
Dale, it seems to me that the simplest and most cost effective way to stiffen up your floor would be to sister dimension 2 by 8 lumber on to the existing rough cut 2 by 8 joists. After jacking and leveling each joist you could glue and bolt the dimension 2 by 8 beams to the rough cut joist keeping the bottom edges parallel, thus keeping the sub floor baring on the original joist. You could relocate heating, plumbing and wiring to a chase along the edges of the usable space to preserve head room in the center of the basement. An alternative would be to replace the existing joists with an engineered joist system with an open web, however engineered joist usually are from 10 to 18 inches deep, which would compromise your existing head room. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4477 (20091002) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4478 (20091003) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
Hi, I have considered these solutions, I am really trying to avoid cutting into all that electrical. I thought though that if I created my own sort of web joists in situ I might achieve the same thing. A series of joined triangles on the surface of the present joist, maybe on opposite faces of the joist then when jacked up into good or at least acceptable alignment then run a bolt through at the bottom so that when the jack is removed the joined bridge work of triangles are held using the original wood joist as the lower cord and I suppose the upper cord as well. The tops could be bolted through pre-drilled angle attached to the top of the side of the joist but one would have to drill angle iron at the bottom of the side I would think to keep them from sliding longitudinally. - Original Message - From: Paul Franklin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Dale, it seems to me that the simplest and most cost effective way to stiffen up your floor would be to sister dimension 2 by 8 lumber on to the existing rough cut 2 by 8 joists. After jacking and leveling each joist you could glue and bolt the dimension 2 by 8 beams to the rough cut joist keeping the bottom edges parallel, thus keeping the sub floor baring on the original joist. You could relocate heating, plumbing and wiring to a chase along the edges of the usable space to preserve head room in the center of the basement. An alternative would be to replace the existing joists with an engineered joist system with an open web, however engineered joist usually are from 10 to 18 inches deep, which would compromise your existing head room. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4477 (20091002) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4478 (20091003) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
Hi Dale, I understand what you are trying to do and I'm sure that you could probably make it work somehow. How are you going to get a full length peace of angle iron above the existing wiring and plumbing without disconnecting cables and water lines? If you can work this out, maybe you could have the upper connections on the triangles pre welded to the top angle iron and still be able to work it into place. This would minimize the number of wholes to be drilled at the top of the joist, however their would be a lot of angle iron left to drill along the bottom cord. Drilling angle iron with a hand held drill in a 22 Inch joist bay is not my idea of fun. How far below the sub floor do the electrical cables pass through the joists? Could you possibly bolt a full length of say 2 Inch, heavy gage channel iron to the top and bottom of both sides of each joist and connect them with bolts or threaded rod through pre drilled wholes. Paul Franklin - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, I have considered these solutions, I am really trying to avoid cutting into all that electrical. I thought though that if I created my own sort of web joists in situ I might achieve the same thing. A series of joined triangles on the surface of the present joist, maybe on opposite faces of the joist then when jacked up into good or at least acceptable alignment then run a bolt through at the bottom so that when the jack is removed the joined bridge work of triangles are held using the original wood joist as the lower cord and I suppose the upper cord as well. The tops could be bolted through pre-drilled angle attached to the top of the side of the joist but one would have to drill angle iron at the bottom of the side I would think to keep them from sliding longitudinally. - Original Message - From: Paul Franklin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Dale, it seems to me that the simplest and most cost effective way to stiffen up your floor would be to sister dimension 2 by 8 lumber on to the existing rough cut 2 by 8 joists. After jacking and leveling each joist you could glue and bolt the dimension 2 by 8 beams to the rough cut joist keeping the bottom edges parallel, thus keeping the sub floor baring on the original joist. You could relocate heating, plumbing and wiring to a chase along the edges of the usable space to preserve head room in the center of the basement. An alternative would be to replace the existing joists with an engineered joist system with an open web, however engineered joist usually are from 10 to 18 inches deep, which would compromise your existing head room. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Information
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
Thanks Paul, That gives me another idea. pre-drilled angle attached top and bottom and threaded rod through wedges so I can get diagonal tension might just work. Having only 8 inches might limit just how much tension I can get, I might be able to drop a couple of inches below the joist though for a little longer diagonal run. I will have to find out just how much tension I can put on threaded rod of particular dimension. I should be able to get angle up over wiring and under the floor with a bit of patience and swearing. - Original Message - From: Paul Franklin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi Dale, I understand what you are trying to do and I'm sure that you could probably make it work somehow. How are you going to get a full length peace of angle iron above the existing wiring and plumbing without disconnecting cables and water lines? If you can work this out, maybe you could have the upper connections on the triangles pre welded to the top angle iron and still be able to work it into place. This would minimize the number of wholes to be drilled at the top of the joist, however their would be a lot of angle iron left to drill along the bottom cord. Drilling angle iron with a hand held drill in a 22 Inch joist bay is not my idea of fun. How far below the sub floor do the electrical cables pass through the joists? Could you possibly bolt a full length of say 2 Inch, heavy gage channel iron to the top and bottom of both sides of each joist and connect them with bolts or threaded rod through pre drilled wholes. Paul Franklin - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, I have considered these solutions, I am really trying to avoid cutting into all that electrical. I thought though that if I created my own sort of web joists in situ I might achieve the same thing. A series of joined triangles on the surface of the present joist, maybe on opposite faces of the joist then when jacked up into good or at least acceptable alignment then run a bolt through at the bottom so that when the jack is removed the joined bridge work of triangles are held using the original wood joist as the lower cord and I suppose the upper cord as well. The tops could be bolted through pre-drilled angle attached to the top of the side of the joist but one would have to drill angle iron at the bottom of the side I would think to keep them from sliding longitudinally. - Original Message - From: Paul Franklin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Dale, it seems to me that the simplest and most cost effective way to stiffen up your floor would be to sister dimension 2 by 8 lumber on to the existing rough cut 2 by 8 joists. After jacking and leveling each joist you could glue and bolt the dimension 2 by 8 beams to the rough cut joist keeping the bottom edges parallel, thus keeping the sub floor baring on the original joist. You could relocate heating, plumbing and wiring to a chase along the edges of the usable space to preserve head room in the center of the basement. An alternative would be to replace the existing joists with an engineered joist system with an open web, however engineered joist usually are from 10 to 18 inches deep, which would compromise your existing head room. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
from personal experience it is a trail and error move to try to readjust flooring. in the Northwest corner of our house for instance the corrections in the basment made a difference in the way doors closed and opened above that as well as the way furnature sets. so it is a trial and error. another point is to find and or borrow a screw jack and quarter inch at a time make a adjustment but do not nail or bolt anything until you sense that all is okay above that. I had such a heavy house ,/ screw jack and let someone borrow it but what I got back was a cheap piece of garbage. this house jack had been previously used n timbers Dale like you described in your oldhouse. Lee On Sat, Oct 03, 2009 at 09:41:08AM -0400, Dale Leavens wrote: Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- Common sense is the most evenly distributed quantity in the world. Everyone thinks he has enough. -- Descartes, 1637 .
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
I don't know if banding would be stout enough for an old heavy house. Since steel is stronger and thinner, I'd be tempted to use some kind of I beam with screw jacks. That would take the bounce out of the floors. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
I have a 20 foot span I don't want posts in. I want to sister the joists but with spaces through which wiring and the like can pass. I also want to try to minimize lost headroom. - Original Message - From: Bob Kennedy To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? I don't know if banding would be stout enough for an old heavy house. Since steel is stronger and thinner, I'd be tempted to use some kind of I beam with screw jacks. That would take the bounce out of the floors. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
Hi Dale Bob is right I have an I Beam through the middle of my garages directly under the main part of the house, when that I Beam is there your floor will not have any bouncy parts at all. If you want to run lights or power cables through state this at the time of ordering it and the supplier can have those holes cut in for you. Check with your local codes as to the size of the I Beam needed and get it put in by professionals with the gear to manoeuvre and install it safely. Why I say that is if this Beam falls on you while you are trying to install it it is good by Dale. Ray From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Sunday, 4 October 2009 6:11 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? I have a 20 foot span I don't want posts in. I want to sister the joists but with spaces through which wiring and the like can pass. I also want to try to minimize lost headroom. - Original Message - From: Bob Kennedy To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? I don't know if banding would be stout enough for an old heavy house. Since steel is stronger and thinner, I'd be tempted to use some kind of I beam with screw jacks. That would take the bounce out of the floors. - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists? Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] stiffening inadequate floor joists?
what we did in a house in Wayne PA was to jack a joist a little bit and then sister to it.We started where the joists sit on the edge of the foundation. We didn't use the same size. I think these were 2x8 and we added 2x6 and made the bottoms flush. Yes, that has the floor above sitting on the extra of the 2x8, but bolted together it's still 4x and is so for 90% of the beam. We started at every other and that was enough. On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Dale Leavens wrote: Hi, It is too wet outside to do any work and I am contemplating a problem I have had since moving into this old building. The original house has floor joists rough sawn but only 2 by 8 on 24 inch centers. We have a springy and uneven floor. Some of it is also because at some point one of the heating systems required framing in a big cold air return and they clearly didn't shore up the floor when cutting that joist, someone long since removed all of the cross bracing. I don't see sistering or adding joists in the usual way because of plumbing, wiring and duct work and I don't want to add more posts and beams. It recently struck me though that I could build in place an open web joist, jack things temporarily up then fix the lower cord. This lead me to think perhaps a better way might be to jack tings up just a little above the desired point then apply a web of strap steel to either face of the existing joists on the diagonal. A series of 'V's so that the diagonal essentially forms triangles. This would allow me to continue to respect wiring. More stiffening might be achieved by running a length of angle iron along the top inside corner against the floor and the joist and run a bolt through it and the straps and similarly at the bottom of the joist, I wonder how much would be enough and how much too much. At some point it might be better to fabricate individual steel webbed joists and fit them between the originals but then they may serve the purpose of lifting the originals which would continue to be pulling down after nearly a century. Just kicking around ideas. I would like to preserve as much open space there as I can. I don't have reasonable access to engineering or architectural services. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
