Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Hi Lee, These days they usually use PEX. PEX is a form of cross linked polyethylene pipe which can be laid down in long loops and being somewhat flexible can be bent without requiring joints. It is quite resilient. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Lee A. Stone To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Lets just say someone was to build a home on a slab they call a floating slab. is there a pipe that wqill last thru the changees or shifting ??Lee On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 01:31:21PM -0500, Dan Rossi wrote: Lee, Yes, many of those homes did get radiant floors. However, it was a poor attempt. They used the wrong materials, and most of those homes developed leaks because of the cement eating up the Copper pipes. To fix the leaks you had to jack hammer up the floor, fix the leak, then pour a patch. These floors were poured slabs with the pipes embedded in the slab. My dad made a lot of money off of fixing those leaks. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Blaine, You don't hear water moving through the pipes in a hot water system. I already have hot water heat, but it is via big cast iron radiators. I would prefer heating through the floor rather than big clunky, ugly, radiators. It is a more comfortable heat, and they say you can actually keep the house a few degrees cooler because you quote feel warmer. I can believe this as when my thermostat says 70 degrees, a thermometer on the floor reads 62. I am looking at the radiant, hhydronnic heat as a replacement heat source, so the house slippers don't really come into play here. *GRIN* I've never liked forced air heat. I find it noisy, dusty, and uneven. I've had hot water heat in every place I've lived except for two, and I've always preferred hot water. Hot water under the floor is just the next step. Last summer I met a woman who had a house built totally off the grid. She lives in Colorado, which is known for sun, but not necessarily warm winters. She has solar heated hot water for both potable and radiant heat. She also has solar for electricity. The house was specifically designed for these features, so it was a lot easier than trying to retrofit an old house. Anyway, I really don't feel like digging out my heat transfer textbook from my college days, so I will just let the discussion of watts and melting snow die quietly. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
You don't have cement board under your tile? I'm assuming this is ceramic tile, is that right? From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:26 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. under tile. Well, starting from the bottom, I have the plywood subfloor, the heating mats, Kerdi membrane, and tile. I think the mats I got, if you put it under wood, you need to put a layer of thinset over the mats first, then glue the wood down, or use a floating floor. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dave Andrus Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:58 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Hi Michael, Your radient flooring that warms the floor. Did you put it under tile or under wood? Dave A. Working together, sharing the light of salvation seen through the cross of Jesus Rev. Dave Andrus, Director Lutheran Blind Mission 888 215 2455 HTTP://WWW.BLINDMIS HTTP://WWW.BLINDMISSION.ORG SION.ORG -Original Message- From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:51 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Nope, this Mike lives in Central Nebraska. trust me, it has been cold here, and snowy. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:24 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Nope, do not need it with the kerdi membrane. if I did not use the Kerdi, the floor would be plywood, 1/4 durock, heat mats, and then tile. the Kerdi allows the plywood subfloor to expand and contract, and not crack the tile. It is hard to describe what it looks like, if you ever make it to a Home Depot, they sell it there. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hodges Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:44 AM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. You don't have cement board under your tile? I'm assuming this is ceramic tile, is that right? From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:26 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. under tile. Well, starting from the bottom, I have the plywood subfloor, the heating mats, Kerdi membrane, and tile. I think the mats I got, if you put it under wood, you need to put a layer of thinset over the mats first, then glue the wood down, or use a floating floor. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dave Andrus Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:58 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Hi Michael, Your radient flooring that warms the floor. Did you put it under tile or under wood? Dave A. Working together, sharing the light of salvation seen through the cross of Jesus Rev. Dave Andrus, Director Lutheran Blind Mission 888 215 2455 HTTP://WWW.BLINDMIS HTTP://WWW.BLINDMIS HTTP://WWW.BLINDMISSION.ORG SION.ORG SION.ORG -Original Message- From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:51 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Nope, this Mike lives in Central Nebraska. trust me, it has been cold here, and snowy. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:24 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Dan, was it hot water heat in the floors in the original Levit town homes on Long Island most are what are called a Cape cod styled home. . we have the same here in tis neighborhood but non have heat in the floors. Lee On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 08:01:42AM -0500, Dan Rossi wrote: Blaine, You don't hear water moving through the pipes in a hot water system. I already have hot water heat, but it is via big cast iron radiators. I would prefer heating through the floor rather than big clunky, ugly, radiators. It is a more comfortable heat, and they say you can actually keep the house a few degrees cooler because you quote feel warmer. I can believe this as when my thermostat says 70 degrees, a thermometer on the floor reads 62. I am looking at the radiant, hhydronnic heat as a replacement heat source, so the house slippers don't really come into play here. *GRIN* I've never liked forced air heat. I find it noisy, dusty, and uneven. I've had hot water heat in every place I've lived except for two, and I've always preferred hot water. Hot water under the floor is just the next step. Last summer I met a woman who had a house built totally off the grid. She lives in Colorado, which is known for sun, but not necessarily warm winters. She has solar heated hot water for both potable and radiant heat. She also has solar for electricity. The house was specifically designed for these features, so it was a lot easier than trying to retrofit an old house. Anyway, I really don't feel like digging out my heat transfer textbook from my college days, so I will just let the discussion of watts and melting snow die quietly. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service.
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
also for those who live out inthe woods a littleyou might have a hot water heat system inside the home in the floors orradiators and as well down the drive way if one was using a outdoor wood furnace. We have one such cousin who builds and sells log homes. He has enough heat running thru his pip0es to keep the long driveway snow / ice free as well as enough hot water to heat the place and enough left over for a hot tub. However that is a set up which costs just for the furnace some $5,000 and who has the ongoing wood supply to feed such a outside furnace. Lee -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service.
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Lee, Yes, many of those homes did get radiant floors. However, it was a poor attempt. They used the wrong materials, and most of those homes developed leaks because of the cement eating up the Copper pipes. To fix the leaks you had to jack hammer up the floor, fix the leak, then pour a patch. These floors were poured slabs with the pipes embedded in the slab. My dad made a lot of money off of fixing those leaks. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
The ground does not need to be heated 4 foot deep to melt the snow on the side walk. this is a snow melt system, not a keep snow off my walk system, so in really cold snows, or fast, deep accumulations, there will be build up on the sidewalk or drive, but the system will get it all melted. The heating wires are put in the concrete about 1.5 inches below the surface. 50 watts is about 170 BTU. 1 watt is 3.412 BTU. 1 sq/ft of concrete that is 1.5 inches deep is about 11.1 pounds. it takes 0.2 BTU to raise 1 pound of concrete 1 degree F. To raise the temp to 32 degrees F from 0 degrees F, it would be 71.04 BTU's Okay, that leaves us with 98.96 BTU's Going with a medium snow, not real wet and heavy, but not real light and fluffy, the snow would weigh about 10 pounds per cubic foot. and if we get an inch of that in 1 hour, that would be 0.83 pounds. it takes 0.5 BTU's to heat ice by 1 degree f. To bring the snow from 0 to 32 degrees f, it would take 13.28 BTU's Now, this is the real BTU hog, it takes 144 BTU's to go from ice at 32 degrees F to water at 32 degrees F, per pound. That would be 119.52 BTU's in our example. The total BTU's so far is 204.38, so that puts us into our second hour, cause we only have 170 BTU's per hour. In the second hour, we wont' need the full 71.4 BTU's cause the concrete is already warmed to 32 degrees F, but it will take some BTU's to maintain that temp, lets say 30% of the original to make it 21.31 BTU's to maintain the concretes 32 degree temp. total 225.69 BTU's. Because heat moves to cold, we will waste BTU's heating the concrete below the wires as well. Lets say we use another 100 BTU's to heating the concrete below the wires during the time it is melting the snow on top. Total 325.69 BTU's go with 340 BTU's to add some extra in for the heck of it. So 2 hours to melt 1 inch of snow, and the use of 100 watts per sq/ft. 15000 watts for a 3 by 50 sidewalk. 15 KW times $0.12 per KW, and you get $1.80 to remove 1 inch of snow. If 1 inch takes 2 hours, and if 8 inches would take 16 hours, then we would be talking about $28.80 to have a snow free sidewalk. Then, if the average snow fall is 60 inches for the year, that would be about 120 hours of use, and $216.00. of course, there are other variables that you would need computer modeling to take into effect, like speed of winds, and the thermal loss of the concrete, and insulation value of snow after it starts to accumulate, rate of snow fall, etc... but if it costs lets say even $400 a year to remove 60 inches of snow for your sidewalk, that is cheap compared to being in eh hospital because of a heart attack from shoveling that much. Possibly cheaper then paying someone to do it as well, not to mention, waiting on them to get it done. Oh, best I could find was raw turkey rolls being0.81 BTU's to heat by 1 degree for 1 pound. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:16 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Well, it takes half a day to thaw a 20 pound turkey in my house at 72 degrees F. My patio weighs about 11 tons and is sitting on frost that penetrates about 4 feet and just now it is 0 degrees F out there with a slight breeze. That would require a load of heat to melt the snow even if the patio was laid on insulation. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:44 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Then go to h http://www.suntouch http://www.suntouch.com .com ttp://www.suntouch. ttp://www.suntouch.com com click on the ProMelt Mats link read the info, and download or open the pdf link SunTouchR ProMeltT Brochure, and see what it says for yourself. it is possible I miss read 50 watts on 240 volt systems, and 36 watts on 120 volt systems. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:27 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I don't believe that for a moment. If it is below freezing it is going to take a lot of heat just to raise the temperature of the surface above freezing. A cement walkway has a lot of mass to bring up to temperature. Then there is the latent heat. it takes something like 40 calories of energy to change the state of water from solid to liquid alone without actually raising the temperature. finally, you need to heat enough area to keep the snow and ice liquid distant enough for it to run away and not just freeze again. In locations where one only gets occasional snow
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Lee, It takes a lot of water for a system like that and you need to mix it with antifreeze to keep it from bursting the pipes. That too adds to the cost. The other thing I don't like about those systems is that you have to babysit them. You don't dare allow them to go out and risk freezing all that water. One bloody great ice cube. We have a load of bush around here and quite a few people have those big wood burning furnaces. Costs a lot of time and money cutting and hauling and stacking and feeding those things then there is the ash. In the fall and spring when they aren't burning hard they make buckets of creosote and that is filthy stuff to dispose of. I am pretty sure they don't dispose of it in an environmentally friendly way either. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Lee A. Stone To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. also for those who live out inthe woods a little you might have a hot water heat system inside the home in the floors or radiators and as well down the drive way if one was using a outdoor wood furnace. We have one such cousin who builds and sells log homes. He has enough heat running thru his pip0es to keep the long driveway snow / ice free as well as enough hot water to heat the place and enough left over for a hot tub. However that is a set up which costs just for the furnace some $5,000 and who has the ongoing wood supply to feed such a outside furnace. Lee -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Very nice set of calculations, but you missed one issue. You only accounted for heating the top 1.5 inches of concrete to 32F. It won't work that way. If the surface of the concrete is 0F, and the ground is 0F, when the heating elements kick on, they will dump just as much heat into the top 1.5 inches of concrete as they will into the 1.5 inches below the elements. Not completely true because the upper half is exposed to the air, and the lower half is attached to a very very large heat sink. So, double the watts needed to heat the 1.5 inches of concrete and you are getting closer. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Suit yourself of course. What I can tell you is that except for very small areas in public places I have never known anyone to use heat to remove snow. A decent snow thrower here uses between 8 and 12 horsepower and costs upward of $1,200 to purchase, fuel to operate and a frozen operator and until very recently we paid less than 3 cents per KWH. I think now we pay 5 cents per KWH for the first 750 and 7 cents above that. Perhaps we are all too stupid or just enjoy freezing our buns off but I am pretty sure it is the economics of it. I do know that trying to meld ice with a propane torch from around a drain in spring above freezing temperatures is simply a waste of time. I don't have any idea what the BTU yield is from my torch but it sure boils water in a hurry. By the way, the frost below the ground does draw off heat. It is how the ground freezes. There is another problem too, just what happens to the water which melts from the snow and ice? It flows until it freezes forming an ice dam. that can me mitigated by installing a drain at the low end of the walk or drive or path provided it is deep enough not to freeze as well. In the spring we do send trucks around steaming out drains of course to carry away melt water. Where one receives trivial amounts of snow melt systems can work and maybe even economically enough however I would have thought that trivial snow accumulations hardly warrant the capital costs. Do keep us informed though about your experience with electric snow and ice melting. I would well appreciate a real life example of where it works. We had a couple of systems at our hospital when it was built a little over thirty years ago. One was installed in a set of 6 or 8 steps at the rear door coming up from the parking lot. It worked for about 10 years , this stair well is recessed into the basement wall and covered, mostly it kept snow and ice from what ever drifted in there. It burned out. There was another small pad under a canopy at the front entrance where cars pull up to disembark, I don't remember how many years it operated but not many and I don't know why either. They solved the problem at the ambulance entrance buy covering it with a drive through garage with automated doors at each end. Now I assume the architects knew something about these systems so probably they work somewhere, somewhere in the south no doubt but they don't work here. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:01 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. The ground does not need to be heated 4 foot deep to melt the snow on the side walk. this is a snow melt system, not a keep snow off my walk system, so in really cold snows, or fast, deep accumulations, there will be build up on the sidewalk or drive, but the system will get it all melted. The heating wires are put in the concrete about 1.5 inches below the surface. 50 watts is about 170 BTU. 1 watt is 3.412 BTU. 1 sq/ft of concrete that is 1.5 inches deep is about 11.1 pounds. it takes 0.2 BTU to raise 1 pound of concrete 1 degree F. To raise the temp to 32 degrees F from 0 degrees F, it would be 71.04 BTU's Okay, that leaves us with 98.96 BTU's Going with a medium snow, not real wet and heavy, but not real light and fluffy, the snow would weigh about 10 pounds per cubic foot. and if we get an inch of that in 1 hour, that would be 0.83 pounds. it takes 0.5 BTU's to heat ice by 1 degree f. To bring the snow from 0 to 32 degrees f, it would take 13.28 BTU's Now, this is the real BTU hog, it takes 144 BTU's to go from ice at 32 degrees F to water at 32 degrees F, per pound. That would be 119.52 BTU's in our example. The total BTU's so far is 204.38, so that puts us into our second hour, cause we only have 170 BTU's per hour. In the second hour, we wont' need the full 71.4 BTU's cause the concrete is already warmed to 32 degrees F, but it will take some BTU's to maintain that temp, lets say 30% of the original to make it 21.31 BTU's to maintain the concretes 32 degree temp. total 225.69 BTU's. Because heat moves to cold, we will waste BTU's heating the concrete below the wires as well. Lets say we use another 100 BTU's to heating the concrete below the wires during the time it is melting the snow on top. Total 325.69 BTU's go with 340 BTU's to add some extra in for the heck of it. So 2 hours to melt 1 inch of snow, and the use of 100 watts per sq/ft. 15000 watts for a 3 by 50 sidewalk. 15 KW times $0.12 per KW, and you get $1.80 to remove 1 inch of snow. If 1 inch takes 2 hours, and if 8 inches would take 16 hours, then we would be talking about $28.80 to have a snow free sidewalk. Then, if the average snow fall is 60 inches for the year, that would be about 120 hours of use, and $216.00. of course
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Lets just say someone was to build a home on a slab they call a floating slab. is there a pipe that wqill last thru the changees or shifting ??Lee On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 01:31:21PM -0500, Dan Rossi wrote: Lee, Yes, many of those homes did get radiant floors. However, it was a poor attempt. They used the wrong materials, and most of those homes developed leaks because of the cement eating up the Copper pipes. To fix the leaks you had to jack hammer up the floor, fix the leak, then pour a patch. These floors were poured slabs with the pipes embedded in the slab. My dad made a lot of money off of fixing those leaks. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service.
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Dale . a lot of that wood ash would be good to put in and around your gardens in the fall . Lee On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 06:08:17PM -0500, Dale Leavens wrote: Lee, It takes a lot of water for a system like that and you need to mix it with antifreeze to keep it from bursting the pipes. That too adds to the cost. The other thing I don't like about those systems is that you have to babysit them. You don't dare allow them to go out and risk freezing all that water. One bloody great ice cube. We have a load of bush around here and quite a few people have those big wood burning furnaces. Costs a lot of time and money cutting and hauling and stacking and feeding those things then there is the ash. In the fall and spring when they aren't burning hard they make buckets of creosote and that is filthy stuff to dispose of. I am pretty sure they don't dispose of it in an environmentally friendly way either. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Lee A. Stone To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. also for those who live out inthe woods a little you might have a hot water heat system inside the home in the floors or radiators and as well down the drive way if one was using a outdoor wood furnace. We have one such cousin who builds and sells log homes. He has enough heat running thru his pip0es to keep the long driveway snow / ice free as well as enough hot water to heat the place and enough left over for a hot tub. However that is a set up which costs just for the furnace some $5,000 and who has the ongoing wood supply to feed such a outside furnace. Lee -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- You will be audited by the Internal Revenue Service.
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Nope, this Mike lives in Central Nebraska. trust me, it has been cold here, and snowy. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:24 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
OK Mike, Then it sounds like the electric mats aren't as bad as I thought. Are you just using them as a comfort heat source and not a primary heat source? Are they thermostatically controlled or do you turn them on and off when you want the heat? I've been looking at hydronic for a primary heat source on the first floor of my house. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel:(412) 268-9081
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Hi Michael, Your radient flooring that warms the floor. Did you put it under tile or under wood? Dave A. Working together, sharing the light of salvation seen through the cross of Jesus Rev. Dave Andrus, Director Lutheran Blind Mission 888 215 2455 HTTP://WWW.BLINDMISSION.ORG -Original Message- From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:51 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Nope, this Mike lives in Central Nebraska. trust me, it has been cold here, and snowy. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:24 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
The heat is thermatically controlled. So, my wife sets the temp, and we go with it. The first instillation at our old house was a primary heat source. We have 45 sq/ft of heating mat installed, and it heated a 135 sq/ft room fine. this was a bathroom in a basement, and the mats were installed in open floor area, not under cabinets toilet, shower, washer/dryer. There was a duct to this room, but i closed it to force more heat up stairs. in the summer, we left it on, cause even the floors then get cool. It did not make the room uncomfortably warm. I noticed the heat was all around, yeah the floor was warmer, but after we installed it, and ran it for a while, there did not seem to be any warm or cool spots in the room like you get with forced air. The bathroom i am doing now, there is a heat vent again, but I will have to wait and see how it does here before I decide to close it off. This installation will be over a crawlspace on the main floor. The crawl space is insulated, so it doesn't get cold, a little cool, but not cold. 35 sq/ft in a 120 sq ft room. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:57 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. OK Mike, Then it sounds like the electric mats aren't as bad as I thought. Are you just using them as a comfort heat source and not a primary heat source? Are they thermostatically controlled or do you turn them on and off when you want the heat? I've been looking at hydronic for a primary heat source on the first floor of my house. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
under tile. Well, starting from the bottom, I have the plywood subfloor, the heating mats, Kerdi membrane, and tile. I think the mats I got, if you put it under wood, you need to put a layer of thinset over the mats first, then glue the wood down, or use a floating floor. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Andrus Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:58 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Hi Michael, Your radient flooring that warms the floor. Did you put it under tile or under wood? Dave A. Working together, sharing the light of salvation seen through the cross of Jesus Rev. Dave Andrus, Director Lutheran Blind Mission 888 215 2455 HTTP://WWW.BLINDMIS HTTP://WWW.BLINDMISSION.ORG SION.ORG -Original Message- From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael baldwin Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:51 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Nope, this Mike lives in Central Nebraska. trust me, it has been cold here, and snowy. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:24 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
I don't believe that for a moment. If it is below freezing it is going to take a lot of heat just to raise the temperature of the surface above freezing. A cement walkway has a lot of mass to bring up to temperature. Then there is the latent heat. it takes something like 40 calories of energy to change the state of water from solid to liquid alone without actually raising the temperature. finally, you need to heat enough area to keep the snow and ice liquid distant enough for it to run away and not just freeze again. In locations where one only gets occasional snow and ice and the ambient temperature does not drop much below freezing then electric may be effective. Other locations like small areas, steps which are sheltered for example may be cost effective. Even the hot water systems aren't widely used except under a loading area like for example an ambulance entrance and that usually under a roof and behind a wall. The ambient atmosphere will draw huge amounts of heat off a surface very effectively. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:17 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
under floor electric heat isn't bad considering the general cost of electric heat. Usually it is in a small room, a bathroom which might be a hundred or so square feet 25% or more of which is covered with shower stalls, tubs, vanities and so on. The ambient temperature of the dwelling will probably be around 70 degrees F so you aren't topping it up much. Heating an entire home that way though would be a lot more expensive. funny really, my first home nearly 40 years ago was all electric with R12 in the walls and R20 in the ceilings and promoted as being the way of the future. Within a couple of years though that turned out to be a myth. Electric heat is cheap to install though. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Dan Rossi To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. OK Mike, Then it sounds like the electric mats aren't as bad as I thought. Are you just using them as a comfort heat source and not a primary heat source? Are they thermostatically controlled or do you turn them on and off when you want the heat? I've been looking at hydronic for a primary heat source on the first floor of my house. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Then go to h http://www.suntouch.com ttp://www.suntouch.com click on the ProMelt Mats link read the info, and download or open the pdf link SunTouchR ProMeltT Brochure, and see what it says for yourself. it is possible I miss read 50 watts on 240 volt systems, and 36 watts on 120 volt systems. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:27 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I don't believe that for a moment. If it is below freezing it is going to take a lot of heat just to raise the temperature of the surface above freezing. A cement walkway has a lot of mass to bring up to temperature. Then there is the latent heat. it takes something like 40 calories of energy to change the state of water from solid to liquid alone without actually raising the temperature. finally, you need to heat enough area to keep the snow and ice liquid distant enough for it to run away and not just freeze again. In locations where one only gets occasional snow and ice and the ambient temperature does not drop much below freezing then electric may be effective. Other locations like small areas, steps which are sheltered for example may be cost effective. Even the hot water systems aren't widely used except under a loading area like for example an ambulance entrance and that usually under a roof and behind a wall. The ambient atmosphere will draw huge amounts of heat off a surface very effectively. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:17 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
That is about 3 bucks a night or 90 bucks a month. - Original Message - From: Dan Rossi To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
with the water method of heating a floor if you're in the basement do you hear the water constintly running through the pipes? It's called house shoes or slippers as we call them in Canada, keep your feet warm and you don't have a monthly bill, unless your slippers somehow get wrecked all the time. As for this heating a driveway to keep the snow off I think if you keep on top of the snow and shovel once it's done it won't be so bad but for the ritch people that pay that if they didn't have that they would have someone clean their driveway and wipe their butt for them too. hahaha Blaine - Original Message - From: Dan Rossi To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:02 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew.cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Well I found the specs for my system, and it is 12 watts per sq/ft no matter if your using 120 or 240 volts. So for a whole house, it could get kind of spendy if your house is not very well insulated. But my system is not designed for a whole house, that system would have different rating. Electric forced air heat might be cheap to install, but not electric wires or mats for heat. Hydronic is probably the way to go for a whole house. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:35 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. under floor electric heat isn't bad considering the general cost of electric heat. Usually it is in a small room, a bathroom which might be a hundred or so square feet 25% or more of which is covered with shower stalls, tubs, vanities and so on. The ambient temperature of the dwelling will probably be around 70 degrees F so you aren't topping it up much. Heating an entire home that way though would be a lot more expensive. funny really, my first home nearly 40 years ago was all electric with R12 in the walls and R20 in the ceilings and promoted as being the way of the future. Within a couple of years though that turned out to be a myth. Electric heat is cheap to install though. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Dan Rossi To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:57 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. OK Mike, Then it sounds like the electric mats aren't as bad as I thought. Are you just using them as a comfort heat source and not a primary heat source? Are they thermostatically controlled or do you turn them on and off when you want the heat? I've been looking at hydronic for a primary heat source on the first floor of my house. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Well, it takes half a day to thaw a 20 pound turkey in my house at 72 degrees F. My patio weighs about 11 tons and is sitting on frost that penetrates about 4 feet and just now it is 0 degrees F out there with a slight breeze. That would require a load of heat to melt the snow even if the patio was laid on insulation. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:44 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Then go to h http://www.suntouch.com ttp://www.suntouch.com click on the ProMelt Mats link read the info, and download or open the pdf link SunTouchR ProMeltT Brochure, and see what it says for yourself. it is possible I miss read 50 watts on 240 volt systems, and 36 watts on 120 volt systems. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:27 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I don't believe that for a moment. If it is below freezing it is going to take a lot of heat just to raise the temperature of the surface above freezing. A cement walkway has a lot of mass to bring up to temperature. Then there is the latent heat. it takes something like 40 calories of energy to change the state of water from solid to liquid alone without actually raising the temperature. finally, you need to heat enough area to keep the snow and ice liquid distant enough for it to run away and not just freeze again. In locations where one only gets occasional snow and ice and the ambient temperature does not drop much below freezing then electric may be effective. Other locations like small areas, steps which are sheltered for example may be cost effective. Even the hot water systems aren't widely used except under a loading area like for example an ambulance entrance and that usually under a roof and behind a wall. The ambient atmosphere will draw huge amounts of heat off a surface very effectively. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:17 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Assuming it runs all night, and every night. It only works when it is snowing out. the point being, it is not in the thousands of dollar range per month, unless you have a very large system, or very high electric rates. _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:38 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. That is about 3 bucks a night or 90 bucks a month. - Original Message - From: Dan Rossi To: blindhandyman@ mailto:blindhandyman%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. Mike, Don't you live in Florida? Or do Ihave the wrong Mike? You are correct though. 50 watts per square foot isn't too bad. Say you do a three foot wide, by 10 foot long section, that would be about 1.5KW for the 240 volt matts. So, 1.5KWH around here would cost about 30 cents an hour to run. That's nowhere near as bad as Iwould have expected. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
If you have a 2 car garage with a 25 foot long driveway that's about 30 kilowatts. I call that a lot. And that's a conservatively sized driveway. In this neighborhood they are about 75 feet long. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin mbaldwin...@gmail.com To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:17 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemasterPAGE_user_op=view_pagePAGE_id=33MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit The Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From Various List Members At The Following address: http://www.jaws-users.com/JAWS/handyman/ Visit the archives page at the following address http://www.mail-archive.com/blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com/ If you would like to join the JAWS Users List, then visit the following address for more information: http://www.jaws-users.com/ For a complete list of email commands pertaining to the Blind Handy Man list just send a blank message to: blindhandyman-h...@yahoogroups.comyahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2708 - Release Date: 02/24/10 19:34:00
Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating.
Dale. Please keep in mind that some of us are talking about heating the interior of a house while I and others are talking about melting snow and ice off of a walkway or driveway. I know it is done because there are homes right here in Bowling Green that have heated driveways. The electric company had to run a 400 amp service to those homes. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Dale Leavens dleav...@puc.net To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I don't believe that for a moment. If it is below freezing it is going to take a lot of heat just to raise the temperature of the surface above freezing. A cement walkway has a lot of mass to bring up to temperature. Then there is the latent heat. it takes something like 40 calories of energy to change the state of water from solid to liquid alone without actually raising the temperature. finally, you need to heat enough area to keep the snow and ice liquid distant enough for it to run away and not just freeze again. In locations where one only gets occasional snow and ice and the ambient temperature does not drop much below freezing then electric may be effective. Other locations like small areas, steps which are sheltered for example may be cost effective. Even the hot water systems aren't widely used except under a loading area like for example an ambulance entrance and that usually under a roof and behind a wall. The ambient atmosphere will draw huge amounts of heat off a surface very effectively. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie - Original Message - From: Michael baldwin To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:17 PM Subject: RE: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I installed the SunTouch brand in our last house, and it was great on the feet. It didn't raise our electric bill by any noticeable difference. I installed 45 square feet on a 120 volt system. After the tiles were warmed up, it never really ran that much. I am now installing it here at our new place, under the tile. it is expensive to install. I think it was over $300 for the 30 inch wide by 14 foot long mat. i tried to find the watts per square foot on there site, but was unable to. I know i saw it there before. So, there is my recommendation for a brand if you want to do this. It does look like they have heating mats for the snow. 120 volt mats draw 36 watts per square foot, and 240 volt ones draw 50 watts per square foot. There is a sensor, so they only operate when it is snowing, so unless you get a lot of snow, or are doing a large drive way, the cost would not be all that bad. Michael _ From: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:blindhandy...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Rossi Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM To: blindhandyman@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BlindHandyMan] Radiant floor heating. I've been doing a lot of research into heated floors. There are two main kinds of radiant floors, electric or hydronic (water). You can bury pipes in the cement floor, or place them in the joist bays beneath a wood floor, then use hot water flowing through the pipes to heat the floor. You can also use electric mesh mats under a layer of cement or cyramic tile to heat the floor. Depending on where you live, this could be pretty expensive. Heating a floor inside a house is a lot less expensive than heating a driveway or sidewalk. Electrically heating a driveway to melt snow would be for the rich only I would expect. heating the floor in the house would be much more cost effective. -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. E-Mail: d...@andrew. mailto:dr25%40andrew.cmu.edu cmu.edu Tel: (412) 268-9081 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send any questions regarding list management to: blindhandyman-ow...@yahoogroups.com To listen to the show archives go to link http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemasterPAGE_user_op=view_pagePAGE_id=33MMN_position=47:29 Or ftp://ftp.acbradio.org/acbradio-archives/handyman/ The Pod Cast address for the Blind Handy Man Show is. http://www.acbradio.org/news/xml/podcast.php?pgm=saturday Visit The Blind Handy Man Files Page To Review Contributions From Various List Members At The Following address: http://www.jaws
