Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
Hi there, I thought I'd pull together a thread that runs through a subset of the comments here: Here is Mark S writing in bugzilla: > Let LibreOffice stay LibreOffice, and let any commercial derivatives > deal with naming issues of their products on their own time. Several other comments are more of the form: "your problem, not mine", or "TDF doesn't need to nurture an ecosystem - why complain to TDF" ? So - of course, that is on one hand fine. Hypothetically TDF could sit at the center of a pure volunteer project, perhaps with enough mentors and enough donations that might work out (though on current trends this might also result in a project a tenth of the size). On the other hand getting there from here, while not loosing all momentum would be wrenchingly problematic. I guess there are some elaboraions of this: On 15/07/2020 14:11, Telesto wrote: > The 'free beer' argument starting to become annoying;-). I'm hearing > lots of self-pitty. > Nobody asks a company to contribute to the LibreOffice code (for free). > Yes, it belongs to a model where you believe in. > If you believe code be open source, while making profit, it's also your > task to come up with a business model generating revenue. Sure, so - it's a harsh market. TDF can choose to make it harsher by competing with the ecosystem that creates much of the LibreOffice code, and mentors much of the developer community. Or it can be passive and do nothing to nurture investment. Or it can create space for those that contribute to its mission and help out. Having a clear approach is helpful though. One of the problems is ambiguity: bait & switch: encourage the investment, but squash the returns by changing the rules =) That is why having a long-term settled consensus is really helpful. > The world is hard and pretty unfair. Indeed, on the other hand - my hope is that we shouldn't use that as an argument to structure things to be deliberately unfair. To a large degree TDF helps to seed the environment for the ecosystem to flourish around the codebase and fulfill its mission with it. Arguably (and I would say this) TDF cannot fill every niche, and serve every market itself - for a host of reasons. On 14/07/2020 16:07, toki wrote: > On 2020/07/14 10:41, Michael Meeks wrote: >> On 12/07/2020 20:32, toki wrote: >>> I'd blame the lack of sales on Collabora having a really bad website >> >> So, if getting sales is only a function of a really good website > > I think it was Brian Tracy who wrote if your website can't sell the > qualified prospect, it needs to be redesigned. I think we're all hopeful that we can create an advert or webpage that makes it impossible not to buy your product ;-) Brian's quote mentions qualified prospects - that's much easier with a sensible lead flow of people who are aware that you exist. >> Beyond that - creating, maintaining and translating a website into >> a handful of languages is an expensive hobby. > > Budget US$100,000 per language per year, for a multilingual website. > This is addition to the cost of designing and maintaining the website. > Before adding languages, look at both the financial ROI, and PR value. > Will the language generate at least US$1,000,000 in additional business > each year ? Well, for our existing ~five languages - if we did that we'd have to transition half of our development staff to marketing at some significant loss to Free software; I assume you'll want a big budget for paid multi-language advertising to bring people to that website, and for sales people too to qualify the leads ? That would consume our entire budget without any contribution back. Either way - given that the same website sells Online but not Desktop, despite advertising both, my suggestion would be that making people aware that they shouldn't be running large un-supported deployments - is a leading factor here. > The last thing any business owner wants to hear from a current > customer is "I went with company x, because I didn't know you > provided that service." I think that's the fundamental problem here; getting the word out effectively that the services around LibreOffice exist, and that buying them is good for the customer, good for the codebase, so good for all our users, and good for the community. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
On 2020/07/14 10:41, Michael Meeks wrote: > On 12/07/2020 20:32, toki wrote: >> On 2020/07/08 12:40, Michael Meeks wrote: >>> I think Thorsten stated more cleanly as: >>> >>> "The market for desktop libreoffice is tough; >>> sales cycles frequently count in multiple years" >> >> I'd blame the lack of sales on Collabora having a really >> bad website > > So, if getting sales is only a function of a really good website I think it was Brian Tracy who wrote if your website can't sell the qualified prospect, it needs to be redesigned. For a previous generation, Joe Girard wrote that the presentation you create, should have the suspect reaching for the pen to sign off on the deal, before they had finished looking at it. Websites provide a first impression, and if that impression is negative, that is the end of the story. You never hear from those suspects. Learning that the website automatically disqualified the firm, is something that an organisation rarely directly hears from the former suspect, and is even more rarely believed by the board. Third party surveys consistently indicate that a bad website loses business. It literally doesn't matter if the firm is B2B or B2C orientated. >Beyond that - creating, maintaining and translating a website into a handful >of languages is an expensive hobby. When you don't know if the pricing is US dollars or Canadian dollars, you've got an issue. (Years ago, Howard Stern paid one of the bubble-headed bleach blondes he specialises in interviewing, a billion Zimbabwean dollars, for her appearance. She was so excited about receiving so much money, she never stopped to convert it to US$. It was just under US$100, which was well below the usual appearance fee.) Budget US$100,000 per language per year, for a multilingual website. This is addition to the cost of designing and maintaining the website. Before adding languages, look at both the financial ROI, and PR value. Will the language generate at least US$1,000,000 in additional business each year? IOW, will adding a page in say, Flemish, generate US$10,000,000 in additional revenue, over the next decade. Revenue that the organisation would not have had, had the Flemish pages not existed? >> Is that the online edition, or the desktop >> edition? Is that Tier 1 or Tier 2 support? > >Worth digging out my mail on the counter-intuitive negatives of answering all >questions on your web-page That gets into the "how much information is too much information" debate. Enough information to qualify the suspect as a prospect, discourage the tire-kicker, and not get struck off, because it appears that the organisation can't solve the suspect's problem. The last thing any business owner wants to hear from a current customer is "I went with company x, because I didn't know you provided that service." jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
Hi Jonathon, On 12/07/2020 20:32, toki wrote: > On 2020/07/08 12:40, Michael Meeks wrote: >> I think Thorsten stated more cleanly as: >> >> "The market for desktop libreoffice is tough; >> sales cycles frequently count in multiple years" > > I'd blame the lack of sales on Collabora having a really > bad website So, if getting sales is only a function of a really good website - I would really suggest that you enter the market, make a fortune -and- contribute that back to LibreOffice =) all are welcome in the ecosystem. Beyond that - creating, maintaining and translating a website into a handful of languages is an expensive hobby. Another (fading) problem is that what most of us love to do is to write FLOSS code that improves our customers' lives and to contribute it to LibreOffice =) You're right - we probably should spend less on that, and more on finding FLOSS-friendly people that like to produce polished marketing copy (CV's to my inbox) - but perhaps you can forgive the imbalance. > Is that the online edition, or the desktop > edition? Is that Tier 1 or Tier 2 support? Worth digging out my mail on the counter-intuitive negatives of answering all questions on your web-page =) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
On 2020/07/08 12:40, Michael Meeks wrote: > One clarification since it caused some private questions: > > On 07/07/2020 21:13, Michael Meeks wrote: >> Collabora - despite C'bra still putting a lot of work into >> LibreOffice Desktop, having an outstanding support capability, doing >> lots of marketing, being the largest code contributor to LibreOffice, >> and having lots of existing happy customers / references for desktop >> LibreOffice, ... etc. etc. >> >> We have not had -one- -single- -new- Collabora *Office* >> customer since 2018 - zero. > > I think Thorsten stated more cleanly as: > > "The market for desktop libreoffice is tough; >sales cycles frequently count in multiple years" I'd blame the lack of sales on Collabora having a really bad website (https://www.collaboraoffice.com), in respect to LibreOffice, Collabora Office, and CODE. Start with the (United States? Canadian? Caribbean?) $18/month/seat for an SMB. Is that the online edition, or the desktop edition? Is that Tier 1 or Tier 2 support? The Tier 3 support page is understandable, until you discover that despite asterisks, there is no definition of either "high" or "medium". It doesn't help that there are two grammatical errors on that page. (Since I'm being picky, there also is a spelling error on one of the other pages.) No pricing in British Pounds, despite being an English company?!?!?! >And of course for us Collabora Online is the tip of the spear for > investment & expected returns, with education being a key sector > currently. We have a growing set of customers there. Wandering through https://www.colaboraoffice.com, I would never have guessed that education was considered to be a key sector. Nor would I know that Collabora GovOffice is claimed to be a key component of their offerings. As far as education goes, Collabora looks like they have created plug-ins that easily enable IT to incorporate Collabora Online into various commonly used environments in the academic and corporate world. Not a mention of those plug-ins, or how they enhance each other, in either their testimonials or white paper. Is TDF/LibreOffice supposed to be doing marketing for and on behalf of Collabora, Multiracio, etc? jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
Am 08.07.20 um 16:44 schrieb Kev M: > I also think someone earlier referenced that this could be > interpreted as being against the TDF bylaws, so those might need to > be changed anyway. This is a big part of the problem because this is exactly an option that cannot be done - at least not in a way that will not end in a situation in which ~all assets of the TDF get lost. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Uwe Altmann -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
What I would like to have is something like an >>I love your work button<< when you add somewhere on forum, ask, bz, release notes, (everywhere) a name of a community member you can click on the name come to his webpage where you can click a like button or maybe an donate button. It's not like a community member will think I want to have money, it's more like someone (I didn't know) like my work, so I contribute more to LibO. Am Mi., 8. Juli 2020 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Kev M : > What if as part of the $5 (or $2, something accessible) annual co-op > membership with Libreoffice you got access to the support forums? Those who > wanted to spend the time to help support the project to provide free tech > support to others would feel good knowing that the people they were helping > were giving back to Libreoffice by being a co-op member, and those who were > receiving one-off technical support would have to pay for the membership to > get access to the support forum. > > Yes there would still be reddit and other channels, but knowing that using > the forum to provide support might push those altruistic people to only use > the forums to give support, and this could snowball into a larger > membership. > > Just a thought I had rereading what I wrote. There's digital real estate > here that can be monetized in a privacy respecting, non-community killing > way that will also benefit eco-system partners IMO. > > On 08/07/2020 10:44 Kev M wrote: > > > Hopes this works as I've never used a mailing list before.. > > 1) I'm making the assumption, not having this information, that Collabora > Office is cheaper than Microsoft Office and other Office Suite software. > How much cheaper is it? If it's just as functional as competitors but it is > less expensive, and has other advantages, there is a profit-making market > for it: > > 1) a) This is that it is open source, and can be reviewed and audited for > security gaps. In Canada, Europe, Russia, and other countries there is a > significant concern that geopolitics in entering into the realm of > technology. Governments are becoming more concerned about the USA and China > installing monitoring software for political and industrial espionage > reasons. > > Why does Collabora not position itself as a secure/open-source/auditable > solution to security issues. Isn't this the reason the German federal > government chose Nextcloud, and the reason the Italian military chose > Libreoffice? > > 1) b) To that point, Michael you raised points about the UK and French > governments not paying for Libreoffice. This is surprising to me and > shameful IMO. These would be large, relatively sustainable contracts to > pursue, and I would suggest that working more with the FSFE's Public Money > Public Code initiative, and presenting it to them from the perspective of; > you're using things, we're having trouble sustaining it, we're hoping you > will purchase, will be a potentially successful strategy. That or do they > get that Collabora is the premiere developer and TDF isn't developing this > for free? If they've already institutionalized the software it might be > worth tugging at the rug under them a bit and telling them the project may > not be able to continue as a going entity because the contractor they used > is not providing any contributions to the development of the software. But > this leads to my later point about trustmarks. > > 1) c) Does Collabora and/or the TDF not have a dedicated government > relations advocacy employee in Europe/North America/Other market countries? > There are many discussions that occur at the government relations level > that lead to contracts and exposure of opportunities to companies. > > 2) That the TDF is not adequately promoting it's enterprise vendors is a > failure of the TDF's marketing committee and the contractors that they > hired. I have followed LO and AOO for years now and I've noticed that the > TDF marketing committee is unwilling to promote LibreOffice in modern ways. > There seems to be a lack of focus on communities outside the FOSS > environment, which doesn't make sense because it's like setting up a booth > to advertise bibles at a religious convention. Why does Libreoffice focus > on attending FOSS conferences instead of International Government > conferences? The NGOs that use LibreOffice for free would be obliged to let > Libreoffice attend the WEF, Davos, and other places. Is there the potential > that the leadership of the Marketing at TDF is not thinking out of the box, > or too small? > > 3) SaaS model - recognizing that all the costs you just listed to set up > small clients is cost prohibitive and that you would need to get 10,000+ > clients for it to be viable -- I would only suggest that because it's hard > and maybe expensive doesn't preclude the idea that this may be one of the > best options to generate sustainable income. > > 3) a) Personally I was excited at the opportunity to pay for LibreOffice > support
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
What if as part of the $5 (or $2, something accessible) annual co-op membership with Libreoffice you got access to the support forums? Those who wanted to spend the time to help support the project to provide free tech support to others would feel good knowing that the people they were helping were giving back to Libreoffice by being a co-op member, and those who were receiving one-off technical support would have to pay for the membership to get access to the support forum. Yes there would still be reddit and other channels, but knowing that using the forum to provide support might push those altruistic people to only use the forums to give support, and this could snowball into a larger membership. Just a thought I had rereading what I wrote. There's digital real estate here that can be monetized in a privacy respecting, non-community killing way that will also benefit eco-system partners IMO. > On 08/07/2020 10:44 Kev M wrote: > > > Hopes this works as I've never used a mailing list before.. > > 1) I'm making the assumption, not having this information, that Collabora > Office is cheaper than Microsoft Office and other Office Suite software. How > much cheaper is it? If it's just as functional as competitors but it is less > expensive, and has other advantages, there is a profit-making market for it: > > 1) a) This is that it is open source, and can be reviewed and audited for > security gaps. In Canada, Europe, Russia, and other countries there is a > significant concern that geopolitics in entering into the realm of > technology. Governments are becoming more concerned about the USA and China > installing monitoring software for political and industrial espionage reasons. > > Why does Collabora not position itself as a secure/open-source/auditable > solution to security issues. Isn't this the reason the German federal > government chose Nextcloud, and the reason the Italian military chose > Libreoffice? > > 1) b) To that point, Michael you raised points about the UK and French > governments not paying for Libreoffice. This is surprising to me and shameful > IMO. These would be large, relatively sustainable contracts to pursue, and I > would suggest that working more with the FSFE's Public Money Public Code > initiative, and presenting it to them from the perspective of; you're using > things, we're having trouble sustaining it, we're hoping you will purchase, > will be a potentially successful strategy. That or do they get that Collabora > is the premiere developer and TDF isn't developing this for free? If they've > already institutionalized the software it might be worth tugging at the rug > under them a bit and telling them the project may not be able to continue as > a going entity because the contractor they used is not providing any > contributions to the development of the software. But this leads to my later > point about trustmarks. > > 1) c) Does Collabora and/or the TDF not have a dedicated government > relations advocacy employee in Europe/North America/Other market countries? > There are many discussions that occur at the government relations level that > lead to contracts and exposure of opportunities to companies. > > 2) That the TDF is not adequately promoting it's enterprise vendors is a > failure of the TDF's marketing committee and the contractors that they hired. > I have followed LO and AOO for years now and I've noticed that the TDF > marketing committee is unwilling to promote LibreOffice in modern ways. There > seems to be a lack of focus on communities outside the FOSS environment, > which doesn't make sense because it's like setting up a booth to advertise > bibles at a religious convention. Why does Libreoffice focus on attending > FOSS conferences instead of International Government conferences? The NGOs > that use LibreOffice for free would be obliged to let Libreoffice attend the > WEF, Davos, and other places. Is there the potential that the leadership of > the Marketing at TDF is not thinking out of the box, or too small? > > 3) SaaS model - recognizing that all the costs you just listed to set up > small clients is cost prohibitive and that you would need to get 10,000+ > clients for it to be viable -- I would only suggest that because it's hard > and maybe expensive doesn't preclude the idea that this may be one of the > best options to generate sustainable income. > > 3) a) Personally I was excited at the opportunity to pay for LibreOffice > support via Collabora as an individual. I couldn't, because I needed to have > several employees first to justify it. Instead I donate to TDF, but > apparently this money is holed up in a bureaucratic bunker because of issues > of distribution. There's a couple problems here: 1) It suggests the TDF needs > a regulatory review to streamline it's operations. 2) again, the TDF isn't > being proactive enough - are the people
