Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
On 29/10/2008, at 9:10 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: i hope so. i had such a lovely time down under. one family even pulled me over on my bicycle and invited me to tea. they kept me for a week and offered me a job when i was finished touring. there were places where i was mistaken for part maori, or part aborigine, but when they heard my yank accent they would say, 'you're alright, mate'... Where did you tour on your bicycle? Charlie Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Senator Ted Stevens found guilty
WTG wrote: Another example of why term limits are a good idea for all elected offices. Corruption Maru The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein Ah, so your anti-religions messages are _not_ an expression of devout atheism, but because you think God should be elected like anyOne else, and should have a term limit to His omnipower? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Conservapedia humor
10,000 km away from the USA, I find anything in this election quite funny. One of my favorite sources of humor is Conservapedia. They tried for months to play the Obama is a kenyan line, then changed to Obama is a muslim, Obama is a terrorist and Obama is a socialist. But now I guess they are desperate: they are playing Obama is nazi (!!!) Too bad elections come this weekend, I would like to see how they would play Obama is gay or Obama is a pedophile or Obama eats little children. Reference: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.viewpageId=79227 Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Conservapedia humor
On 29/10/2008, at 10:08 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Obama is a pedophile He loves feet? Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Redistribute the wealth
On 29 Oct 2008, at 05:04, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 28 Oct 2008 at 23:30, David Hobby wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: ... For dummies, okay. It's a new system, introduced in 2006 and there are still minor tweaks going on, but it's attracted a lot of attention. The core of it is this: It's a system of obligatory private health insurance. The insurance companies (and over a dozen compete) can't refuse to offer you the basic package, for a flat price. Additional cover is offered at the insurance company's digression, at any price they chose to set. You can chose to have an excess to reduce the premium, but are not forced to have one. Andrew-- Thanks for the explanation, but I can't quite figure out the last sentence. Do you mean to say ...choose to have an exam to reduce the premium,? No, excess, as in you pay the first x of the costs before the insurance kicks in. Called a deductible in the USA. One language Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Redistribute the wealth
At 12:04 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 28 Oct 2008 at 23:30, David Hobby wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: ... For dummies, okay. It's a new system, introduced in 2006 and there are still minor tweaks going on, but it's attracted a lot of attention. The core of it is this: It's a system of obligatory private health insurance. The insurance companies (and over a dozen compete) can't refuse to offer you the basic package, for a flat price. Additional cover is offered at the insurance company's digression, at any price they chose to set. You can chose to have an excess to reduce the premium, but are not forced to have one. Andrew-- Thanks for the explanation, but I can't quite figure out the last sentence. Do you mean to say ...choose to have an exam to reduce the premium,? No, excess, as in you pay the first x of the costs before the insurance kicks in. That sounds like what in the US is called the deductible . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Conservapedia humor
At 06:23 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Charlie Bell wrote: On 29/10/2008, at 10:08 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Obama is a pedophile He loves feet? Baked, boiled, or fried? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Senator Ted Stevens found guilty
On 29 Oct 2008, at 10:40, Alberto Monteiro wrote: WTG wrote: Another example of why term limits are a good idea for all elected offices. Corruption Maru The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert Einstein Ah, so your anti-religions messages are _not_ an expression of devout atheism, but because you think God should be elected like anyOne else, and should have a term limit to His omnipower? I think the nepotism and cronyism depicted in many religions sets a poor example. Yahweh sends his *son* to save mankind? Noah gets the job of building the ark without competitive tendering? Why don't the angels have a union Maru? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ “Babies are born every day without an iPod. We will get there.” - Adam Sohn, the head of public relations for Microsoft's Zune division. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My contribution to the bail-out
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let them eat almond bread? M... almond bread... [makes Homer Simpson sound] -- Mauro Diotallevi The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? Let them eat cake? TINSTAAFL. Some people lose when an unfair system is made more fair. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On Oct 29, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? Let them eat cake? TINSTAAFL. Some people lose when an unfair system is made more fair. Nick Let the patients have a say in how the system is designed? Or -- OMGZ! -- maybe let them design it? At the very least, put actual practicing MD's in charge of the medical decisions to cover or not cover treatment, and hold them accountable for permanent health consequences if they dodge covering a treatment that turns out to have been medically necessary? That, at least, would be better than anonymous, unaccountable spreadsheet jockeys making those same decisions with the only criteria being the insurer's bottom line .. A city built on rock 'n roll would be structurally unsound. -- Julie Maier ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the very least, put actual practicing MD's in charge of the medical decisions to cover or not cover treatment, and hold them accountable for permanent health consequences if they dodge covering a treatment that turns out to have been medically necessary? And watch in horror as they order every expensive diagnostic procedure and treatment in the book for a simple cold, in order to cover their asses. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On Oct 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, John Williams wrote: Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the very least, put actual practicing MD's in charge of the medical decisions to cover or not cover treatment, and hold them accountable for permanent health consequences if they dodge covering a treatment that turns out to have been medically necessary? And watch in horror as they order every expensive diagnostic procedure and treatment in the book for a simple cold, in order to cover their asses. Over the heads of your primary care provider, in other words? It's one thing to say no to a treatment or diagnostic procedure the doctor actually in front of you has ordered. It's another thing entirely to order tests or treatments the doctor *didn't* order him/ herself. And it would be a vast improvement over anonymous bean counters arbitrarily denying care because it might actually cost money. It might even make it worth working as a doctor in this country again. (An MD friend and former teacher of mine recently told me she wouldn't recommend anyone she knows go into medicine these days, because it's almost not worth seeing patients between the legal pitfalls, malpractice insurance, and patients' HMO's saying no to just about everything she orders or prescribes.) They love him at a barbecue, not so much with the nuclear launch codes. -- Toby Ziegler ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] And it would be a vast improvement over anonymous bean counters arbitrarily denying care because it might actually cost money. A vast increase in costs, definitely. In quality? Probably not. A large amount of health spending in the US is for expensive diagnostics that have a low likelihood of finding anything useful. But they get ordered anyway because those responsible are afraid of not doing so. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Senator Ted Stevens found guilty
On 29 Oct 2008 at 12:51, William T Goodall wrote: Why don't the angels have a union Maru? They do, that's where the Adversary comes in. AndrewC Mmm, Sarcasm Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:11 AM, John Williams wrote: And it would be a vast improvement over anonymous bean counters arbitrarily denying care because it might actually cost money. A vast increase in costs, definitely. In quality? Probably not. A large amount of health spending in the US is for expensive diagnostics that have a low likelihood of finding anything useful. But they get ordered anyway because those responsible are afraid of not doing so. Given the litigious nature of our society these days, I doubt much can be done about defensive diagnostics without cutting into legitimate medical care and treatment more than is already being done. But I would still trust practicing (or at least experienced) MD's to make those judgment calls more than I would accountants with no medical knowledge or training and little or no accountability for their decisions, which is what we have now. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The complexity of affirmative action
I've seen questions related to affirmative action being debated on the list, but hadn't participated, due to the overwhelming RL activity I've been involved with. Further, my position is rather complex: indeed I see the discussion as touching on only part of the complexity. Even though my position is complex, I can give a quick summary: I do not believe in quotas, but I do believe in asking questions about the reasons for the differences after doing statistical analysis. I think there is no doubt that a quota type system (which had been used in the past) has had some very negative results. One of which has been the idea that hard work and ability are not involved in success. I've given the example, earlier, of Neli (the older of my two Zambian daughters) being told that she wasn't black enough because she worked too hard. She need to chill to be authentic. She's told me how angry she gets about African-Americans who show up late and very inappropriately dressed for job interviews expecting to get them because a quota needs to be filled or not get it because the man was against them. But, at the same time, I know that Colin Powell stated that he never would have gotten far without affirmative action. The natural prejudice against blacks leading whites was so strong that it took rules to overcome it. I know an extremely capable black man who never reached the level of responsibility that he was entitled to (a white man took it) and was the only manager not to sign the time cards of his subordinates because upper management didn't want to shame his subordinates. Most Republicans/Conservatives see affirmative action only in terms of quotas. Further, they argue that discrimination must be proven on a case by case basis. This seems quite unreasonable to me. For example, take a coin. If one flips the coin 100 times, and it comes up heads 90 times, one knows something isn't kosher. However, if it one cannot, on a case by case basis, determine if it is an honest coin. Each time the odds are even that it will come up heads or tails.so coming up heads is not any evidence of a loaded coin. I've seen this applied in real life, where I worked. The company decided to lay off all people over 50 (actually uncreate their jobs and then create nearly identical ones because layoffs have special rules). One guy was desperately needed for a project, so he was the exception. About 15-20 people were let go, all were over 50. What are the odds on this being a coincidence? Next to zero. It was clearly age discrimination. But, under the Reagan rules, it wasn't provable because it couldn't be proven in each single case, it could only be proven statistically. Well, if you go by those rules, you'd stop all advancement in physics after 1915 or so, because QM is statistical. From But, statistical analysis allows one to ask the question and then expect a reasonable answer. For example, if the position applied for is a professor of computer science, the fact that, while 10% of the nation is black vs. only a few percent Asian, there are many more Asians than blacks who have the basic prerequisites for the job. So, there is a difference between statistical analysis and quotas. With statistical analysis, there is room to have basic critera for acceptance. But, it is reasonable to ask why, if group A and group B both have many applicants that meet the job criteria, and only one token choice from group B is made, why aren't more from group B chosen. Finally, going back to the hardest question: African-Americans; it is clear to me that plain vanilla anti-black discrimination is not the main problem facing African Americans. Neli has found that discrimination is there (she's been pulled over in a DWB incident), but she finds that the internalization of the racist stereotypes by African-Americans a much higher hurdle than simple discrimination. The fact that we appear to be on the verge of electing the first African-American president, and that he has not inherited the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow supports this contention. Given this, I think the nation as a whole should look to the military for the means of implementing affirmative action effectively. From my understanding, goals for diversity have existed for years in the military, and have been achieved without sacrificing quality. The military expects all to meet the standards it sets, and works with young officers to help them meet the requirements to rise in the ranks. This is the model I think we should use: no quotas, no lowered standards, but measure diversity and work with underrepresented groups to help them be successful candidates for higher positions. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I would still trust practicing (or at least experienced) MD's to make those judgment calls more than I would accountants with no medical knowledge or training and little or no accountability for their decisions, which is what we have now. I wouldn't. It is mostly a matter of statistics and following best practices. Unfortunately, many doctors are either remarkably ignorant of statistics or frequently overrule their knowledge to go with their gut. Or order a bunch of unnecessary tests to cover their ass. The bean counters, as you call them, provide important and necessary oversight to such wasteful procedures. Doctors obviously should have a great deal in input in deciding how to diagnose and treat a patient, but when it comes down to a question of money, oversight and implementation of statistically proven best practices is necessary in order to allocate health care spending most efficiently. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive just wait around a while for the next person to show up! If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web interface! -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
Where did you tour on your bicycle? Charlie Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru New Zed in '87 89. I hitched all over Aus and had all kinds of adventures. I am thinking about building a bike and doing the South Island and Stewart Island. Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Redistribute the wealth
what it comes down to is choosing the lesser evil... jon As some have pointed out, the lesser of two evils is still evil. . . . ronn! :) I don't think either candidate is evil, they are both obligated to different sets of special interests and the less evil of those are the dems... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
How do we prevent such a system from degenerating to the lowest quality of service it possibly can get away with? . . . ronn! :) we should not assume that will happen because some nations with national health can't afford the kind of RD available in the richest country in the world. No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? . . . ronn! :) true enough, that's another reason why health care delivery systems MUST be reformed, and eliminating the middleman frees up a lot of cash for the end user. all we can do it find something better than what we have, now. i am sure those funds will be compromised, but what else can you do? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Complex humor (was Re: My contribution to the bail-out)
At 09:18 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: At 06:13 PM Tuesday 10/28/2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 11:12 AM Tuesday 10/28/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote: On Oct 27, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Let's adopt complex numbers in finance! Maybe in the next crisis we will be discussing things like the banks (or whatever) were negotiating 100 quadrillion i-dollars! There's got to be a reference to the Mandelbrot set in there somewhere .. :) Let them eat almond bread? M... almond bread... [makes Homer Simpson sound] Mauro Diotallevi The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. Catching up on some TV this afternoon, I saw repeatedly a couple of ads for Clorox® products for cleaning the bathroom, one of which features a girl in the bathtub imagining herself as a mermaid and the other a boy imagining himself a pirate, both of which end with a tag line that says Because a bathroom can be more than a bathroom, Clorox® helps keep it clean, even the imaginary parts. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The complexity of affirmative action
At 12:57 PM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Dan M wrote: The military expects all to meet the standards it sets, and works with young officers to help them meet the requirements to rise in the ranks. This is the model I think we should use: no quotas, no lowered standards, but measure diversity and work with underrepresented groups to help them be successful candidates for higher positions. I agree with much of what Dan wrote, and I felt this way even before I was a young ossifer in the Air Farce . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
At 03:26 PM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: How do we prevent such a system from degenerating to the lowest quality of service it possibly can get away with? . . . ronn! :) we should not assume that will happen because some nations with national health can't afford the kind of RD available in the richest country in the world. No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? . . . ronn! :) true enough, that's another reason why health care delivery systems MUST be reformed, and eliminating the middleman frees up a lot of cash for the end user. all we can do it find something better than what we have, now. But like random mutations in biology, change for change's sake is more often detrimental rather than beneficial. And the government has a rather poor track record of having things improve once they take over. So even if we agree that the current system needs fixing, some of us see all the ways it could be made worse and want to know while it is being improved in the areas it needs improvement it is not also made worse in other areas, resulting in the overall result being no better or even worse than the current system? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote: On Oct 29, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? Let them eat cake? TINSTAAFL. Some people lose when an unfair system is made more fair. Nick Let the patients have a say in how the system is designed? Or -- OMGZ! -- maybe let them design it? At the very least, put actual practicing MD's in charge of the medical decisions to cover or not cover treatment, and hold them accountable for permanent health consequences if they dodge covering a treatment that turns out to have been medically necessary? That, at least, would be better than anonymous, unaccountable spreadsheet jockeys making those same decisions with the only criteria being the insurer's bottom line .. My wonderful OB (who has since retired from delivering babies) told me about the way she dealt with insurance company people insisting that she had to discharge the patient because it had been 48 hours since delivery was to explain *why* the patient needed to stay in the hospital another 24 hours, and if that didn't do the trick, her final ploy was to inform the person on the other end of the phone that if *they* wanted the patient discharged, they could damn well come and fill out the discharge forms themselves. *That* tended to close down the argument. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bike Touring was Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
On 30/10/2008, at 7:20 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: Where did you tour on your bicycle? Charlie Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru New Zed in '87 89. I hitched all over Aus and had all kinds of adventures. I am thinking about building a bike and doing the South Island and Stewart Island. Nice. I'm still thinking about doing NZ on my trike. What sort of bike would you build? C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
On 29 Oct 2008 at 16:56, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 03:26 PM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: How do we prevent such a system from degenerating to the lowest quality of service it possibly can get away with? . . . ronn! :) we should not assume that will happen because some nations with national health can't afford the kind of RD available in the richest country in the world. No, we have examples here of things where there is no competition or they have to take everyone regardless of ability to pay the bill, like the ones I listed. (Nothing to do with RD but with simply getting seen and getting adequate care.) If we get one-size-fits-all health care, how do we insure that it does not degrade like many other things already have? . . . ronn! :) true enough, that's another reason why health care delivery systems MUST be reformed, and eliminating the middleman frees up a lot of cash for the end user. all we can do it find something better than what we have, now. But like random mutations in biology, change for change's sake is more often detrimental rather than beneficial. And the government And with something like a single payer system, the track record isn't good. Again.. *points to Holland's system* AndrewC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
At 09:51 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote: A city built on rock 'n roll would be structurally unsound. -- Julie Maier More so than one built on a major earthquake fault or a coastal city built below sea level? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
At 10:44 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote: On Oct 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, John Williams wrote: Bruce Bostwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] At the very least, put actual practicing MD's in charge of the medical decisions to cover or not cover treatment, and hold them accountable for permanent health consequences if they dodge covering a treatment that turns out to have been medically necessary? And watch in horror as they order every expensive diagnostic procedure and treatment in the book for a simple cold, in order to cover their asses. Over the heads of your primary care provider, in other words? It's one thing to say no to a treatment or diagnostic procedure the doctor actually in front of you has ordered. It's another thing entirely to order tests or treatments the doctor *didn't* order him/ herself. And it would be a vast improvement over anonymous bean counters arbitrarily denying care because it might actually cost money. It might even make it worth working as a doctor in this country again. (An MD friend and former teacher of mine recently told me she wouldn't recommend anyone she knows go into medicine these days, because it's almost not worth seeing patients between the legal pitfalls, malpractice insurance, and patients' HMO's saying no to just about everything she orders or prescribes.) In one respect at least the Martians are a happy people; they have no lawyers. Edgar Rice Burroughs, A Princess of Mars ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Senator Ted Stevens found guilty
At 11:46 AM Wednesday 10/29/2008, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 29 Oct 2008 at 12:51, William T Goodall wrote: Why don't the angels have a union Maru? They do, that's where the Adversary comes in. AndrewC Mmm, Sarcasm Maru It's much better than the response I was contemplating . . . :) . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
John Williams wrote: If the participants are chosen randomly. Not so if the additional participant is a high risk of an expensive health problem. Health insurance is an extraordinarily complicated problem. One that would become much simpler with a single payer. Assuming your actuaries are competent, anyway. :-) Frequently a bad assumption with government programs. As it is, it would seem from recent events, with private industry. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
Andrew Crystall wrote: And with something like a single payer system, the track record isn't good. Again.. *points to Holland's system* Which parts of the single payer system exhibit this bad track record you refer to? Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is bad. -- Nietzsche ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] One that would become much simpler with a single payer. A big health care system is much like a big economy, there is no way that it can be administered and centrally controlled efficiently. In that sense, a single payer system is not simple by any means. As it is, it would seem from recent events, with private industry. When the government interferes, definitely. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Single payer health care
But like random mutations in biology, change for change's sake is more often detrimental rather than beneficial. And the government And with something like a single payer system, the track record isn't good. Again.. *points to Holland's system* AndrewC of course, holland, and other western countries, are way ahead of america, andrew. i am not talking about change, simply for change's sake. what would be detrimental rather than beneficial is mc cain's proposal for universal health care... obama's plan is at least a step in the right direction, but still not as good as the nader. or kucinich model, or what you have in the netherlands. like they say, it's not much, if it's not dutch!~). jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
John Williams wrote: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] As it is, it would seem from recent events, with private industry. When the government interferes, definitely. Hmmm...Let's look at the record. In 1933 passim regulations were enacted to prevent the problems that started the Great Depression. These regulations prevented any serious problem from recurring for 50 years. Then in late 1970s the deregulation rage began, and the regulations that had kept banking safe for those 50 years were removed. It took a few years, but the first major banking problem, the SL crisis, happened as a result. Not to be outdone, the Republicans decided to repeat the experiment with the repeal of the stock market regulations like Glass-Steagall. With a few years lag to let the good stuff happen, we then had the worst financial collapse since the Great Depression. It looks to me like a lack of government interference can cause serious damage to financial markets. But don't take my word for it. Consult Ayn Rand's chief disciple, Alan Greenspan, who recently admitted that his libertarian theories did not work out nearly as well in the real world as they had in his theories. A few centuries back, the state of the art in medicine thought that the way to cure people was to bleed them. Then a few people noticed that this didn't seem to actually, well, not to put too fine a point on it, cure many people. The response by the medical experts was that obviously those people had not been bled enough! There is something similar in the view that the problem in financial markets is that we didn't remove *enough* of the regulations. The only saving grace is that the people who promote this view tend to be equally mistaken in their political strategies. I note that the far right of the Republican party is now promoting the idea that McCain is losing because he is not conservative enough, and that if the Republicans would just be more ideologically rigid they would triumph again! I encourage this thinking in Republicans since nothing would more ensure their complete marginalization in the political life of this country. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 I think it's about time we voted for senators with breasts. After all, we've been voting for boobs long enough. -- Claire Sargent ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
Kevin B. O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] In 1933 passim regulations were enacted to prevent the problems that started the Great Depression. And what was a stock market correction turned into a 10 year disaster as a result of misguided government policy. but the first major banking problem, the SL crisis, happened as a result. As a result of misguided government regulations. With a few years lag to let the good stuff happen, we then had the worst financial collapse since the Great Depression. Government screwed that one up too. looks to me like a lack of government interference can cause serious damage to financial markets. Too bad we don't actually have a period with lack of government interference so that you could see how misplaced your faith is in your political gods. Rand's chief disciple, Alan Greenspan, who recently admitted that his libertarian theories did not work out nearly as well in the real world as they had in his theories. Greenspan was part of the problem, a government regulator who made the usual mistakes. and that if the Republicans would just be more ideologically rigid they would triumph again! I encourage this thinking in Republicans You do? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:26 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: A big health care system is much like a big economy, there is no way that it can be administered and centrally controlled efficiently. Did somebody propose a centrally administered and controlled health care system? Nick (who smells straw) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
