Re: L3: Meet Canada The Global Arms Dealer
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:35:00 -0400, Han Tacoma wrote: I'm appalled; should make the list's hawks less anti-canadian, I guess. Meet Canada The Global Arms Dealer by Stephen James-Kerr; May 25, 2003 This guy sounds like he thinks he's blown the lid off something. Canada's participation in the war on terror has never been a secret. Canada's relationship with the US has never been a secret The fact that Canada has defence and aerospace industries has never been a secret. Are you surprised that the Canadian government provides support for exporters (at a cost which the article doesn't mention)? He fails to mention how job creation through export development offsets welfare costs. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Miniature Earth
On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:04:38 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 08:38:41PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How exactly, does the concept of sustainability preclude technology? Or are you reserving the term, and concept, for use only by tree-hugging luddites living in communes? Here are some questions I asked Han, but he did not answer. Maybe you could answer them for yourself: 1) How much electrical energy (in kW-hours) do you use in an average month or year? 2) If you have natural gas, how much gas (or gas energy) do you use in an average year? 3) And if you drive a car, how far do you drive in an average year? After you post the answers, I will work through an rough calculation of the issues involved if 6B people each used that amount of energy, and we can talk about whether it would be possible to get everyone in the world up to that level in a sustainable way and how long it might take and how expensive it would be. Remember, so far almost all technology is dependent on energy. For 2002, Electricity 3935 KWh Natural Gas 1002 M^3 X 10.34 KWh/M^3 = 10360 KWh Gasoline 3100L X 8.61 KWh/L = 26691 KWh Total 40986 KWh Here is some actual numbers by country if you would rather use them. http://onsager.bd.psu.edu/~jircitano/Energy.html So what did you have in mind? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Next Big Thing: Re: Peter Arnett has negative effect onratings
On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:52:19 -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: As for the rest of your proposed coalition, the Malaysian regime is founded upon the principle of oppressing their ethnic-Chinese majority in favor of their ethnic-Malay minority. The Chinese and Malaysians simply hate each other, and indeed have an ongoing territorial dispute in the Spratly's. In the near and mid-terms, the odds of a Beijjing-Kuala Lumpur axis approach zero. These are actually 2 good examples of Chinese expansionism. The Chinese business savvy has allowed them to successfully infiltrate Malaysia economically. In 20 years they could own the country. The dispute in the Spratly islands pulls in several directions IIRC, while the Chinese have continued to implant themselves there. The ethnic Malay's are the **majority** in Malaysia. And while you call the Malaysian Chinese oppressed, some might call the Bhumi's advantaged. Just as ethnic Chinese are advantaged in Singapore. Call it affirmative action if you want. It is not unusual for a country to give advantages to its aboriginals. And in the end, this won't really matter to the Chinese, nor to the Malaysians as long as they both get a piece of the action. As for Singapore, they are one of the more prominent supporters of the US coalition on Iraq, so no fears there. People change. France was once big supporters of American action in Europe. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: christian vultures circling iraq ready to strike
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:32:11 -0600, The Fool wrote: http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/okeefe032603.html Two leading evangelical Christian missionary organizations said Tuesday that they have teams of workers poised to enter Iraq to address the physical and spiritual needs of a large Muslim population After seeing so many interviews with American soldiers and the number of times that god is invoked as their protector, a prolonged American occupation will likely do a much better job at christianizing the population than any missionary group. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Saddam is not only polarizing the Arab nations...
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:10:03 -0500, Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: I actually think that Chrétien has gone with his principles on this issue. He wants to have an actual 'international community' and believes the UN is the closest thing to getting one. You are probably right. As inconsistent as his comments have been, he has always stated support for the UN. I don't disagree with this, but it is a risk when you are looking at pissing off your closest trading partner. - Canadian soldiers have already died under American bombs in Afghanistan. Perhaps there is a little fear of troops working under US air cover in Iraq when they will just be providing a token presence anyway I don't think so. If this was a reason, we'd hear a lot more about it. Just speculating here. I haven't heard Chretien strongly object to the US's position. In fact this week, he defended their right to proceed with this war. I have heard that the Canadian Navy is much more capable of integrating with US forces than the army. This might explain the naval presence in the Gulf while avoiding contributing ground forces. I can't read his mind but just staying out of their way might be a consideration. And speaking of public opinion. I am starting to wonder where this anti-war majority is in Canada. Most people I talk to and those I hear on talk radio consider it a necessary task and support the coalition forces. Of course, this depends on what channel you listen to. Let's just say that if you were in Québec, you'd have the opposite experience. Maybe you're in Alberta? Southern Ontario. Jean-Louis Alberta, the other secessionist province Probably predictable after the Kyoto debates, but it seems that that came out of nowhere. Then again, I don't always manage to stay on top of current politics. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Saddam is not only polarizing the Arab nations...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:34:36 -0500, Han Tacoma wrote: I know there's a difference of opinion..., and yet..., There seems to be a significant, or at least vocal, subset of Americans that find enemies wherever they look. I think the with us or against us philosophy is mostly responsible for it as well as being largely responsible for Bush's failure to rally support for an invasion of Iraq. It also indicates to me that US media picks up only the things that come out of the side of the Canadian PM's face rather than actual involvement the Canadian forces has in the war on terror. That guy should get back on E-bay and buy himself a clue. Americans are so benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. -- J. Bartlet Brebner I find it difficult to determine the reasons for the fence sitting posture of the current Canadian government with regard to the Iraq war (does this war have a name yet?). It must be one or a combination of the following: - trying to follow public opinion in an election year - trying to remain a global citizen. It is just not Canada's style to support a preemptive war without UN support - Canadian soldiers have already died under American bombs in Afghanistan. Perhaps there is a little fear of troops working under US air cover in Iraq when they will just be providing a token presence anyway - I can't think of any more right now. And speaking of public opinion. I am starting to wonder where this anti-war majority is in Canada. Most people I talk to and those I hear on talk radio consider it a necessary task and support the coalition forces. Whats next? Freedom bacon? Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: You know what would be cool?
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:58:44 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: You know what would really be cool? It would be cool if there were some sort of substance that totally dissolved plant material, but left animal flesh totally untouched. 'Cause if there were something like that, we could all have enemas with the stuff, and everyone suffering from stick-up-the-butt-itis would end up being a lot more comfortable afterwards. It is called the dope slap. Of course, it is difficult to apply if ones head is also up there. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: We Can make Fuel Cells Happen
On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:08:55 -0500 (EST), John D. Giorgis wrote: An interesting article on how to make fuel cells a reality: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/hydrogen.html I'm sure that Dan M. will have comments... and before he does, here is a counterpoint: http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article1205.html Very interesting articles. However, as in many of these types of articles, I feel too much emphasis is put on the development of fuel cells. While they have the potential to be much more efficient than internal combustion or gas turbine engines, they are not necessary to begin a shift to a hydrogen infrastructure. Traditional engines can be converted for use with hydrogen or even duel fuel gas/hydrogen. Don't get me wrong. fuel cell development should merit a large investment during the shift, however, immediate attention to the storage problem, and development of the infrastructure should be a priority and that won't happen without a market. And the market won't be there for a while, in my opinion anyway, if we wait for affordable fuel cells. Start the shift now and when fuel cells are in place, the infrastructure will be there to support it. Speaking of Apollo scale projects, here is another one I came across recently. Calculating Hydrogen Production Costs http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=502subcookie=1 Author urges massive, urgent shift to wind-power generated hydrogen. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: RE: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:05:53 -0500 (EST), John D. Giorgis wrote: ---Original Message--- From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's also the matter of French preservation of language and culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use a foreign word in business. When computers first became widely available, phrases such as le software and le hardware came into use, but the French authorities stomped out that sort of thing *** Interesting to note that if these policies were carried out anywhere else in the world, we probably would have one word to describe them: racism. While the word software was recently invented, and the French have had their own word for hardware for quite some time, I think racism is a bit extreme. I am assuming France has only the one official language. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars Question: Booting from USB HD
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:12:36 +, William T Goodall wrote: So far, I haven't seen any computers that had USB as a boot option. (I recently rolled out five brand new Pentium-4 IBM NetVista PC's, and even those didn't have that option.) Macs have been able to use a USB drive (HD or CD) as startup disk for years. My Toshiba notebook has this ability also. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another breed of international criminals: Patients (not L3)
On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 14:54:52 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: We in Canada are having our own tug-o-war regarding this issue and my interest in what happens in the USA is because having a 1000 lbs. gorilla as neighbour will have an influnce in our policies. Anti-American MP's with big mouths do tend to complicate things tho. Judging by the words Damned Americans, I hate those bastards Ms. Parrish has a rather low view of us, and her televised apology sounded particularly insincere. Just think of her as our Pat Buchanan. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/FantasyMovieSoundtrack?]
On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:44:39 -0800, Doug Pensinger wrote: I've used VBA quite a bit, almost exclusively in Excel manipulating test data. I now program quite a bit in LabView... I'm sure there are a few opinions about that particular language if you are familiar with it. Any volunteers? 8^) I use Labview quite alot now. I do alot of data acquisition work. I have tried to learn other languages over the years but found them difficult to learn when I only needed it for an occasional project. Labview is much easier to learn and so far has done everything I have needed it to do. I haven't heard much praise amongst hardcore programmers though. My first programming experiences was with APL. I believe this is the root of my programming learning disability. :) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:16:15 -0600, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Anyone want to comment here on APL? I would love to but don't I need a special keyboard? :) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The rapid decline of the Sci-Fi Channel....
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:45:39 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote: Matt Grimaldi wrote: That being said, there really was no excuse for showing The Flintstones. I dunno - he had some pretty cool technology - way ahead of its time... :-) The Flintstones was very SF. With time machines, invisibility, zero emission vehicles and a cautionary message, that if we uplift pelicans for use as trash cans, a quiet rebellion of snarky comments behind our backs will be the result. Not the legacy any patron race should leave. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Iraq, Iran to Chair UN Disarmament Conference
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:20:40 -0800 (PST), J.D. Giorgis wrote: and Libya is chairing the Commission on Human Rights. File this as Reason #3462 why the UN system is broken... The irony is overwhelming, a U.S. diplomat said. The conference chair helps organize the work of the conference and assists in setting the agenda. I don't think irony makes it broken. It doesn't sound like the chair of the conference carries any clout and it may serve to bring more attention to their atrocities. Excepting them from established administrative procedures will hardly serve to raise their standards. Perhaps the head of the table is the best place for the worst offenders. Its got to be better than stuffing them in a peanut gallery and pointing fingers at them. Why would Beijing get the Olympics? Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: scouted: Francyphilis
On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:54:48 -0600, Steve Sloan II wrote: Miller, Jeffrey wrote: Nah.. I'm a freak who spells things correctly (colour, theatre, etc) so you don't strike me as terribly, well, odd ;) That's not correct spelling. It's merely *French* spelling, which leads nicely back to the subject of this thread. ;-) My Oxford English Dictionary spells them colour and theatre. Now apologize to the Brits! ;-) ;-) ;-) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Analyze this? (attn Dan, Erik, Gautam)
On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 18:32:17 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Someone on one of my other lists posted this link: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/28/1043534050248.html My BS detector started going off at the sentence I am not a crank. :) Anyone better at ferreting out the BS in the details want to take a crack at pointing out to me just where the fatal flaws are? (I'd be very interested in hearing from Dan, Erik and Gautam on the whole thing. Any other response is quite welcome, as well.) I can't comment on the physics of anti-gravity, but their assertion that the B2 is underpowered is ridiculous. Take-off thrust of the [B2 engine] F118- 100 at sea level is given as '19,000lb (84.5kN) class' by Northrop Grumman and as '17,300lb (77.0kN)' by the USAF. These are startlingly low figures for an aircraft whose take-off weight is said to be 336,5001b (152,635kg) and which was until recently said to weigh 376,0001b (170,550kg). Aircraft usually get heavier over the years, not 20 tones [sic] lighter. Even at the supposed reduced weight, the ratio of thrust to weight is a mere 0.2, an extraordinarily low value for a combat aircraft. A heavy subsonic combat aircraft. If they wanted to make a point here they would have compared it to other aircraft. I don't know typical values for other combat aircraft but while modern commercial airliners have a thrust to weight ratio closer to .3, it doesn't mean they couldn't fly at .2. They just would be less suitable for short fields. As long as the thrust available exceeds drag, the plane should be able to accelerate to takeoff speed given enough runway. And the profile of the stealth looks like it would have less drag than a wide body jet, requiring less thrust. Does anyone know what the takeoff distance of a loaded B2 is? I imagine it is quite long. Is this the reason it is flown from bases in the US? And why do aircraft get heavier over the years? Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: NASA Chief Outlines New Nuclear, Space Plane Efforts
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:19:25 -0500, Kevin Tarr wrote: Now now. Three mile island has the river water three times removed from the reactor. It cools the water that cools the water that cools the reactor. And it's used in the cooling towers. And they keep a lot on site, they don't constantly take water from the river. Also, the fisherman say the best place to fish is near the island. Kevin T. and we aren't talking catch and release I have a friend that tells me the best spot to fish around the Bruce nuclear plant is at the inlet to the heavy water plant. It is more than likely near the cooling water outlet also. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Backneck barcode removable tatoos
On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:48:42 -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: :-) My daughter Natalia, a Dark Angel fan, wants to know where she can find removable tatoos in the form of barcodes, so that she will look like 452 If you have access to a laser printer, you could try making the bar code in a paint program, or maybe find it on a fan site, and then print it to transfer paper. A google for transfer paper turned up many hits, including this... http://www.decalpaper.com/tattoo.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Segway scooter hot seller online
On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:41:35 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Hmm, what fraction of verbal converations between people utilize webcams now? We do have the cheap bandwidth needed to make that possible. I don't know what the fraction is but that is irrelevant. It is used by people who need it or wish to use it. You can buy a web cam and software for very low cost. If the fraction of actual users (who have highspeed internet) is small, while being so affordable, it indicates that people don't see a huge need for this technology. I personally wont have one because I feel it is an invasion of privacy and frankly, I am a bit camera shy. In the context of your original statement, this does not invalidate the technology, only the market which the technology needs. Simply because people criticized valid ideas, doesn't make ideas that are criticized right. And that statement can be easily flipped on its head. Simply because people criticize invalid ideas, doesn't make ideas that are criticized wrong. Your argument seems to be that most new ideas are invalid. This may be the case, however they do serve the purpose of eliminating possibilities which aids the progression of technological development. Like Thomas Edison said, Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed.. So, I certainly do not consider myself a luddite. But, I've listened to hype for over 30 years now, and have developed an ear for separating real innovation from song and dance innovation. My ear is certainly not perfect, but I've had a better track record than others. I have never considered you a luddite. But I do believe you think of new tech in terms of your business and are a little jaded from past promises. You don't have the time or money to follow a path that may not pay off. I too am self employed and am unable to pursue the work I am really interested in for need of generating a certain number of billable hours every month. I wouldn't invest in something based on a sole press release either. Announcements such as the Spectrolab/NREL one, while their immediate impact is not quantified, do indicate a progression in technology. This is what I find interesting and encouraging. One of the things I look for is meat. When I come up with what I consider an innovation, once the patents are applied for of course, I am more than happy to give detailed arguments that back up my claims. Another is the answer to the question the guys before you were bright, why didn't they think of this? Now, this can be considered a negative question, like the questioning of Galileo's right to counter Aristotle. But, Galileo had a good answer, detailed observations are useful because things don't always work as we expect them to. Aristotle was very bright, but his unwillingness to dirty his hands with experimental work was a negative. I ask myself this question when I come up with an idea. If I cannot think of why bright people didn't come up with this idea beforehand, I look very carefully for what I overlooked. Most of the time, I find my own mistake. When I do have good reasons for me being the first person to come up with an idea, then I go forward, with a much better chance of success. All good criteria. What I don't understand is how you have applied them to a PV cell and a Segway. The former is a modification of an already proven technology. The later, a unique idea, which has only been on the market for a few months, and was made possible by recent developments in embedded real time control. When solar power cells drop in price a factor of 2 per kwH, then I'll start to take notice. When they are, once again, just about to, then I don't. Why would you consider this type of skepticism unwarranted? It appears to me that you consider the technology invalid today, because the futurists failed to produce them 30 years ago. Getting back to the Segway, I consider a transportation technology that runs on the sidewalk at a speed that requires pedestrians to jump out of the way, I believe the speed is controllable. and who's innovation is not that it provides transportation, not that it does it in an energy efficient manner, but that it does it with a certain type of balance and control It appears to me to have more control and maneuverability than any other form of powered transportation. at a high price to be more flash than substance. IMHO, a defense of this technology needs to show not only that small energy efficient transportation is desirable, The subject header of this thread suggests it is desirable to someone. but that 1) The unique features of the Segway provide unique and critical advantages for using such technology. IIRC, the use of gyroscopes for stability is what is unique about the Segway. It allows it to turn, literally, on a dime. No vehicle with more than one axle can do that smoothly. 2) The difficulties inherent in running at
Re: More Efficient Solar Cell
On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:04:26 -0800, Doug Pensinger wrote: In this months issue, Scientific American honored the National Energy Resources Laboratory and Spectrolab for constructing the most efficient land-based solar cell. ...the cells converted 34% of the energy in sunlight to electricity beating the previous record by about 2%. Equally important, Spectrolab used standard production equipment to manufacture the cells and built them on a low cost base of germanium; they are more than 40% more efficient than other mass produced cells. An on line article is at http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q2/nr_020521s.html Maybe the future of solar cells _isn't_ that distant, eh? Very cool! Here's another recent advancement, http://www.originenergy.com.au/news/news_detail.php?pageid=82newsid=233 http://solar.anu.edu.au/Pages/epilift.html?pageid=82newsid=233 A joint venture between the Australian National University and Origin Energy has developed a new type of solar cell with the potential to revolutionise the global solar power industry. Director of the ANU Centre for Sustainable Energy Systems, Professor Andrew Blakers today unveiled the Sliver CellTM, which uses just one tenth of the costly silicon used in conventional solar panels while matching power, performance and efficiency. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Segway scooter hot seller online
On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:25:30 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: So I see in the Segway and (hopefully) its descendants a means to move towards a smaller, more efficient means of transportation. How is it more efficient for commuting than other forms of single person transportation that use very little fuel, such as scooters? It may not be. But I think Doug's point was that it gives an option to people who either can't or won't drive a scooter for commuting. There are environments were the Segway will do well. And personal preference will have a lot to do with it. Although right now, that choice isn't there for many people because of the cost. I would like to suggest to all of you who, it appears, have already been run over by one of these, that whether skateboard, bicycle, blades or segway, the problem does not lie with the mode, but with the asshole who is piloting it. Obviously the scope if this first iteration is limited, but its a start, a new idea, and I hope it's successful. Well, the TV phone was a new idea too. We were all supposed to have TV phones by now; the first prototypes were available over 40 years ago. Most new well hyped technology doesn't live up to their promise. It is possible to criticize individual efforts without being a luddite. But it wasn't a good idea. People just thought it was neat, not useful. Like automatic doors and food pills. Expense and lack of bandwidth made it impractical for all but the wealthy. Cheap bandwidth is here now and webcams are becoming quite cheap and popular for those who wish to use them. CD's, cell phones, ABM's, debit cards, PC's, microwave ovens, telephones, electricity etc. were all new ideas that at one time had their critics. How did you ever become a science fiction fan? :-) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: N Korea threatens to 'destroy world'
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 22:01:29 -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 08:50 PM 12/27/2002 -0600 Dan Minette wrote: We were _extremely_ fortunate that the USSR was a conservative government. It went gently into that good night. I shudder to think of what would happen if the leadership didn't care if the people lived or died after they lost power. If you look at N. Korea or Iraq, one could argue that the leadership does care about the well being of the people of the country at all. Reminds me of the great Sting song I Hope the Russians Love Their Children Too. There's no monopoly on common sense On either side of the political fence You mean that song? :-) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars question: Number of characters in a cell in Excel
LEN(B1) in cell C1 (as in your example) will do it. I just tried it with your example and it returned 22. On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:26:46 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Is there a way to have Excel tell me the number of characters including spaces in a cell? For example, row 1 column B might have: utl-dbg4-emer ntly cls (not including the quotation marks) and row 1 column C would show that this has 22 characters. It seems like this would be a simple thing to do, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to do it. If there's not a built-in function to do this, how could it be done using a visual basic macro that would read all the rows in column B and then put the number of characters in the corresponding row of column C? Thanks in advance for any help. Reggie Bautista ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars question: Number of characters in a cell in Excel
No problem. I have just spent the last 2 hours myself working on a problem that wasn't really there. Better get our tinfoil hats on. :) Dean On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:54:16 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LEN(B1) in cell C1 (as in your example) will do it. I just tried it with your example and it returned 22. THANK YOU! I search under a whole bunch of different terms, but for some reason length never occurred to me... Thank you again, very much. Reggie Bautista Braindead Today Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
