RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryon Daly side note: $1 million was stolen from that area just a few weeks after I left the job! They never caught anyone for it, even though access to the area was restricted to at most about a dozen people, and the place was littered with cameras. I have my suspicions about who did it, though.) Wasn't that right before you bought that house and the Hummer? ;) Umm. That was money I saved from my, umm, paper route. Uh, yeah - that's the ticket! Big tippers on that paper route. Lovely. Did we do the work ourselves, or is this how some unspecified 3rd country is participating in the Coalition? You seem to be assuming that hard interrogation means torture. Do you think that there are no acceptable strong means of interrogation that don't involve torture? Don't be absurd. Of course I know that. Sorry, I wasn't trying to lecture you - it was a genuine question, though possibly poorly phrased. What I read to be distaste/sarcasm in your original remark made me wonder if you were implying the hard interrogation was torture, or if you felt that any/all means (or a least legal US means) of hard interrogation were unacceptable Sorry, I wasn't trying to lecture you - it was a genuine question, though possibly poorly phrased. What I read to be distaste/sarcasm in your original remark made me wonder if you were implying the hard interrogation was torture, or if you felt that any/all means (or a least legal US means) of hard interrogation were unacceptable. But nevermind. _ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
Bryon Daly wrote: Seems ridiculous to me. The US gladly paid out $30 million to the tipster for the Hussein boys, and freely stated so. Why would this be different? I don't buy that national pride argument that the US needed to capture him rather than get him handed over. In fact, I think that if he had been betrayed and turned over by his own closest people, it would have been a powerful message to the remaining fighters that the cause is lost. That, and some happy Iraqis with a giant $25 million check makes good PR as well, and could encourage future sellouts among the terrorists. I haven't read that link yet but there have been a number of reports that the informant would not be paid the award money. http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/saddam_capture_bodyguard_03 1215-1.html Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
I haven't read that link yet but there have been a number of reports that the informant would not be paid the award money. Apparently it's because the individual did not surrender the information willingly, and had to be subjected to a hard interrogation, according to the TV news report last nite... Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryon Daly Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 03:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated? From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] An interesting take on recent news events surrounding Saddam, and does pose some potentially intruiging questions. Possibly meaningless, but the suggestion about negotiations IRT the reward money going sour.. I dunno. http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=743 Seems ridiculous to me. The US gladly paid out $30 million to the tipster for the Hussein boys, and freely stated so. Why would this be different? I don't understand what your point is - this article only briefly mentions the reward money.. did you actually read the article? If so, this is the best criticism you can come up with, something it doesn't even talk about? Further.. hell yeah, I'd negotiate the reward money if I was a low-level flunky in Dr Evil's empire. You bet your ass I wouldn't accept a check, and cash? Forget it! You think I'd live more than about 2 minutes after driving a car out of the US Embassy loaded with $25M in $100 bills (do you understand exactly how BULKY even $1M in $100 bills is? http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/million/million.html ) In fact, I think that if he had been betrayed and turned over by his own closest people, it would have been a powerful message to the remaining fighters that the cause is lost. That, and some happy Iraqis with a giant $25 million check makes good PR as well, and could encourage future sellouts among the terrorists. Yeah, they'll just head down to the local Money Tree or other Pay-Day Loan company and cash that puppy... Seriously tho, its looking more and more like Saddam had squat-all to do with day-to-day coordination, and now that Lebenese super-terrorist whotsisface is in southern Iraq (by many reports)... Also, if he was captive, why would they leave him with AK-47's, a pistol, and the cash? They didn't. The AK-47s were above ground, and the Pentagon has quickly yet quietly backed away from the story that Saddam had a pistol. For that matter, where was the communications equipment and records required to run an operation the size and sophistication that the Iraqi resistence is engaging in? what, was he yelling orders up that ventilation pipe? -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Damon Agretto Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 07:25 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated? I haven't read that link yet but there have been a number of reports that the informant would not be paid the award money. Apparently it's because the individual did not surrender the information willingly, and had to be subjected to a hard interrogation, according to the TV news report last nite... Lovely. Did we do the work ourselves, or is this how some unspecified 3rd country is participating in the Coalition? -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Bryon Daly: Seems ridiculous to me. The US gladly paid out $30 million to the tipster for the Hussein boys, and freely stated so. Why would this be different? I don't understand what your point is - this article only briefly mentions the reward money.. did you actually read the article? If so, this is the best criticism you can come up with, something it doesn't even talk about? Yes, I did read it. At least twice. The article suggests that the US wouldn't want to get Saddam through using a tip-off, for reason of national pride. I mention the money because it is proof that the US *was* willing to use a tip-off to get the sons, and quite publicly discussed it, which I don't think would be significantly different on the national-pride thing. Further.. hell yeah, I'd negotiate the reward money if I was a low-level flunky in Dr Evil's empire. You bet your ass I wouldn't accept a check, and cash? Forget it! You think I'd live more than about 2 minutes after driving a car out of the US Embassy loaded with $25M in $100 bills I rather imagined a free ticket to the US, England, or wherever else they wanted would be included, and that the money would safely be deposited in any bank of the tipster's choice. And while the tipsters might not want to trust us, we had already demonstrated that we were willing to make good on the money promise, with the sons' tipster. (do you understand exactly how BULKY even $1M in $100 bills is? http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/million/million.html ) Yes I do. I worked in the high-security bulk/coin teller area of a bank headquarters. I've wheeled carts around containing $4-5 million in cash and seen piles of $20-50 million. It is actually surprisingly, almost disappointingly, small, when you see it. (An interesting side note: $1 million was stolen from that area just a few weeks after I left the job! They never caught anyone for it, even though access to the area was restricted to at most about a dozen people, and the place was littered with cameras. I have my suspicions about who did it, though.) In fact, I think that if he had been betrayed and turned over by his own closest people, it would have been a powerful message to the remaining fighters that the cause is lost. That, and some happy Iraqis with a giant $25 million check makes good PR as well, and could encourage future sellouts among the terrorists. Yeah, they'll just head down to the local Money Tree or other Pay-Day Loan company and cash that puppy... No, of course not, as I say above. I was just being a bit flippant - the giant check would be for PR purposes. Seriously tho, its looking more and more like Saddam had squat-all to do with day-to-day coordination, and now that Lebenese super-terrorist whotsisface is in southern Iraq (by many reports)... Quite possibly. I'm not asserting otherwise, just that I doubt that he was a captive of his own people, about to be turned in for the money. Also, if he was captive, why would they leave him with AK-47's, a pistol, and the cash? They didn't. The AK-47s were above ground, and the Pentagon has quickly yet quietly backed away from the story that Saddam had a pistol. The article states Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol. I haven't seen anything about this and even read a bried blurb about one of the Iraqi CPA leaders asking Saddam why he didn't use his pistol (I don't remember the exact reply, but it wasn't I didn't have a pistol). Do you have a link to any news articles about him having no pistol? For that matter, where was the communications equipment and records required to run an operation the size and sophistication that the Iraqi resistence is engaging in? what, was he yelling orders up that ventilation pipe? Again, I having no idea what his level of control/involvement was. That wasn't my point. I'll just ask my question about your other email here rather than make a second post... From Jeffrey Miller: From Damon Agretto: Apparently it's because the individual did not surrender the information willingly, and had to be subjected to a hard interrogation, according to the TV news report last nite... Lovely. Did we do the work ourselves, or is this how some unspecified 3rd country is participating in the Coalition? You seem to be assuming that hard interrogation means torture. Do you think that there are no acceptable strong means of interrogation that don't involve torture? -Bryon _ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryon Daly Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 01:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated? Yes, I did read it. At least twice. The article suggests that the US wouldn't want to get Saddam through using a tip-off, for reason of national pride. I mention the money because it is proof that the US *was* willing to use a tip-off to get the sons, and quite publicly discussed it, which I don't think would be significantly different on the national-pride thing. *suggests* but doesn't posit that as a sole reason. Further.. hell yeah, I'd negotiate the reward money if I was a low-level flunky in Dr Evil's empire. You bet your ass I wouldn't accept a check, and cash? Forget it! You think I'd live more than about 2 minutes after driving a car out of the US Embassy loaded with $25M in $100 bills I rather imagined a free ticket to the US, England, or wherever else they wanted would be included, and that the money would safely be deposited in any bank of the tipster's choice. And while the tipsters might not want to trust us, we had already demonstrated that we were willing to make good on the money promise, with the sons' tipster. I would definately want passage out of Iraq if I turned in the boss.. but not in a Stryker or a helicopter ^_^ (do you understand exactly how BULKY even $1M in $100 bills is? http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/million/million.html ) Yes I do. I worked in the high-security bulk/coin teller area of a bank headquarters. I've wheeled carts around containing $4-5 million in cash and seen piles of $20-50 million. It is actually surprisingly, almost disappointingly, small, when you see it. I don't think so at all; most Americans see small briefcases of millions and millions of dollars here is zee suitcase with zee $10 Meel-yon dough-lahrs, meester Bond.. ..so actually seeing even $2M is impressive (and yeah, I've seen multiple millions myself, in person at poker tournements.. hell, I was impressed ^_^) side note: $1 million was stolen from that area just a few weeks after I left the job! They never caught anyone for it, even though access to the area was restricted to at most about a dozen people, and the place was littered with cameras. I have my suspicions about who did it, though.) Wasn't that right before you bought that house and the Hummer? ;) Yeah, they'll just head down to the local Money Tree or other Pay-Day Loan company and cash that puppy... No, of course not, as I say above. I was just being a bit flippant - the giant check would be for PR purposes. Heh.. giant check.. the first thing I thougth was they'd bring out a giant fake check like at the end of golf tournaments... They didn't. The AK-47s were above ground, and the Pentagon has quickly yet quietly backed away from the story that Saddam had a pistol. The article states Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol. I haven't seen anything about this and even read a bried blurb about one of the Iraqi CPA leaders asking Saddam why he didn't use his pistol (I don't remember the exact reply, but it wasn't I didn't have a pistol). Do you have a link to any news articles about him having no pistol? I'll dig a little; juan cole or instapundit or buzzflash had it (my liberal sources)..I distinctly remember it was a left-leaning source, though, because it was tucked in with other liberal items.. Lovely. Did we do the work ourselves, or is this how some unspecified 3rd country is participating in the Coalition? You seem to be assuming that hard interrogation means torture. Do you think that there are no acceptable strong means of interrogation that don't involve torture? Don't be absurd. Of course I know that. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
At 01:29 PM 12/16/03, Miller, Jeffrey wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryon Daly Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 03:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated? From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] An interesting take on recent news events surrounding Saddam, and does pose some potentially intruiging questions. Possibly meaningless, but the suggestion about negotiations IRT the reward money going sour.. I dunno. http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=743 Seems ridiculous to me. The US gladly paid out $30 million to the tipster for the Hussein boys, and freely stated so. Why would this be different? I don't understand what your point is - this article only briefly mentions the reward money.. did you actually read the article? If so, this is the best criticism you can come up with, something it doesn't even talk about? Further.. hell yeah, I'd negotiate the reward money if I was a low-level flunky in Dr Evil's empire. You bet your ass I wouldn't accept a check, and cash? Forget it! You think I'd live more than about 2 minutes after driving a car out of the US Embassy loaded with $25M in $100 bills (do you understand exactly how BULKY even $1M in $100 bills is? http://www.cockeyed.com/inside/million/million.html ) I'm surprised no one has commented on the following paragraph from that web site: quote One, the 5 Zero Halliburton Premiere Silver Attaché Case (US$545) held all the money...exactly one million dollars! Debbie, Donald, Brooke and I took turns lugging it around the store. /quote -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
--- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article states Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol. I haven't seen anything about this and even read a bried blurb about one of the Iraqi CPA leaders asking Saddam why he didn't use his pistol (I don't remember the exact reply, but it wasn't I didn't have a pistol). Do you have a link to any news articles about him having no pistol? His reply was, wonderfully enough, to point to a nearby American soldier and ask, Would you fight them? You seem to be assuming that hard interrogation means torture. Do you think that there are no acceptable strong means of interrogation that don't involve torture? -Bryon In fact it appears that we conducted the interrogation and we are legally unable to use torture. A prohibition that we appear to be sticking to, since the very fact that we need to ship people resistant to less coercive forms of interrogation off to various unsavory allies suggests that we are unable/unwilling to use those forms ourselves. The person involved probably wasn't exactly comfortable, but given the time frames involved, I doubt they were tortured - there probably wasn't time enough to do so. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Saddam not captured, but liberated?
From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] An interesting take on recent news events surrounding Saddam, and does pose some potentially intruiging questions. Possibly meaningless, but the suggestion about negotiations IRT the reward money going sour.. I dunno. http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=743 Seems ridiculous to me. The US gladly paid out $30 million to the tipster for the Hussein boys, and freely stated so. Why would this be different? I don't buy that national pride argument that the US needed to capture him rather than get him handed over. In fact, I think that if he had been betrayed and turned over by his own closest people, it would have been a powerful message to the remaining fighters that the cause is lost. That, and some happy Iraqis with a giant $25 million check makes good PR as well, and could encourage future sellouts among the terrorists. Also, if he was captive, why would they leave him with AK-47's, a pistol, and the cash? Why was he blocked in - because a more easily exited hiding spot would be easier to discover. All the other arguments also seem to have simple explanations that don't require Saddam to have been a captive. _ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
