Re: Rude and insulting
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:52 PM, David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's too bad, and sounds like an extreme response. May I suggest simply killfiling the source of your irritation as an intermediate option? I'd agree, or just consider asking yourself this question before hitting Send: Am I trying to change somebody other than myself? If the answer is yes, discard it or re-write until you're satisfied that you are just discussing the issue, not trying to change the other person. I am very, very slow to respond to requests to remove people from the list. It is appalling how lethargic I become. I'm just contrary. And slow to do for others what, in theory, they should be able to do for themselves. (At least, that's where I am this month.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
any theories why this person has such a mean streak. either he was bullied as a child, or he was the bully!~) it's not like he isn't aware and just lacking in social skills. he probably never leaves his house and spends all his time picking arguments on line. he won't reveal any info mation about himself, so he is certainly using an alias. no one seems to know how he found out about this list, but he seems to thrive on all the attention he receives for being so abusive. how sad... I have a very strong suspicion that he (John) has read and enjoyed at least one David Brin novel, and that he found the list using google or another search engine, and that he will be more than willing to confirm this dispelling your theory that he is unwilling to reveal information about himself. John, am I correct? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: If someone _physically_ attacks one of my kids or my wife (all hypothetical atm), they may find themselves suddenly with one or several surplus body openings in whatever caliber I can lay my hands on at the time . . . So, your kid (or wife) is playing with a 4-year-old, and he kicks his (her) leg - you would butch him? :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
rude and insulting
in a community, there is behaviour that is simply unacceptable. Ad hominem, falsehoods and abuse (particularly unprovoked) are among those. It is hard to accept trolling. It is best to start by explaining where the offender is outside the range of acceptable behaviour or agreed code of standards, once someone consistently refuses to adhere to those, telling them outright they're out of order is the next reasonable step, along with replying to their posts that stay within the spirit of discussion and calling out ones that don't. Moderation follows - personally I think banning is extreme, and in a community like this simply choosing to pass over emails from certain individuals is usually enough. Charlie. so far efforts at intervention do not seem to be working and may even be exacerbating the problem. if we ignore him our resident troll will probably just escalate his abuse even more, and at that point it could lead to ostracism. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Rude and insulting
being called a loser on an internet list... not really have any emotional reaction... Dan M. i do, but then i consider the source... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
in a community, there is behaviour that is simply unacceptable. Ad hominem, falsehoods and abuse (particularly unprovoked) are among those. While I'm not fond of any of these behaviors and believe they should be discouraged, I can't see that anyone engaging in these behavior by e-mail chat can really hurt anyone. Its simple enough not to read or respond to messages from anyone you don't like, and personally, I find mysel beginning to ignore messages not only from those who are trolls but from those who frequently and constantly vent their anger at the trolls. If your'e concerned about community, consider the effect of everyone else on the list of having our inboxes constantly flooded with these arguments. I have seriously considered, in the last week, removing myself from the list because I'm tired of hearing all sides of this debate. If you don't like what someone's talking about, start another thread about a better topic and stop engaging them. I have even found that my junk mail filter can distinguish between different people on the discussion group. Hmmm I usually find that whenever someone else has the ability to make me mad over and over, it has more to do with me than it does with the other person. Olin - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: rude and insulting in a community, there is behaviour that is simply unacceptable. Ad hominem, falsehoods and abuse (particularly unprovoked) are among those. It is hard to accept trolling. It is best to start by explaining where the offender is outside the range of acceptable behaviour or agreed code of standards, once someone consistently refuses to adhere to those, telling them outright they're out of order is the next reasonable step, along with replying to their posts that stay within the spirit of discussion and calling out ones that don't. Moderation follows - personally I think banning is extreme, and in a community like this simply choosing to pass over emails from certain individuals is usually enough. Charlie. so far efforts at intervention do not seem to be working and may even be exacerbating the problem. if we ignore him our resident troll will probably just escalate his abuse even more, and at that point it could lead to ostracism. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Rude and insulting
any theories why this person has such a mean streak. I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. Nick as i said, you're a better man than i am. i can accept honest criticism, especially when i am wrong, but the abuse and insults stick in my craw. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Rude and insulting
I find mysel beginning to ignore messages not only from trolls but from those who constantly vent their anger at the trolls. If your'e concerned about community, consider the effect of everyone else on the list of having our inboxes flooded with these arguments. good point; you have convinced me to remove myself from the list. nick, please do the honors... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rude and insulting
Jon Louis Mann wrote: I find mysel beginning to ignore messages not only from trolls but from those who constantly vent their anger at the trolls. If your'e concerned about community, consider the effect of everyone else on the list of having our inboxes flooded with these arguments. good point; you have convinced me to remove myself from the list. nick, please do the honors... jon Jon-- That's too bad, and sounds like an extreme response. May I suggest simply killfiling the source of your irritation as an intermediate option? ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rude and insulting
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:52 PM, David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's too bad, and sounds like an extreme response. May I suggest simply killfiling the source of your irritation as an intermediate option? I'd agree, or just consider asking yourself this question before hitting Send: Am I trying to change somebody other than myself? If the answer is yes, discard it or re-write until you're satisfied that you are just discussing the issue, not trying to change the other person. I am very, very slow to respond to requests to remove people from the list. It is appalling how lethargic I become. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
rude and insulting
It is such cynical and sarcastic statements that makes you appear to run Asshole as a native app. Not trying to be insulting, just an observation on why you catch so much flak. Your remarks were uncalled for, and if you are trying to draw my ire..try harder. any theories why this person has such a mean streak. either he was bullied as a child, or he was the bully!~) it's not like he isn't aware and just lacking in social skills. he probably never leaves his house and spends all his time picking arguments on line. he won't reveal any info mation about himself, so he is certainly using an alias. no one seems to know how he found out about this list, but he seems to thrive on all the attention he receives for being so abusive. how sad... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: any theories why this person has such a mean streak. I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I would invite others to do the same, but I''m not saying they should. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
Original Message: - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:10:37 -0800 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: rude and insulting On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. Actually, we don't know much about who is behind the posts. It is one of the facinating things about communications like this. I'm not so much interested in why I'm insulted (the actual insults mean little to me because I have virtually no personal investment in John Williams; I'm interested in the set of ideas that is promoted and the basis for those viewpoints. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I would invite others to do the same, but I''m not saying they should. Some I do, and some I don't. Some, I don't think that I shouldI mean that I accept that they are as they are, and I do not control them, but there are times I engage in negative reinforcement. For example, I'm going to complain about someone who didn't do their job and left me unknowingly without insurance for a week. If someone attacks one of my kids or my wife I will put in some effort to have them realize that it will not be helpful to their own goals to keep up with such activity. But, being called a looser on an internet list, that I might analyze, but not really have any emotional reaction to. Dan M. mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: any theories why this person has such a mean streak. I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I would invite others to do the same, but I''m not saying they should. Good, because if you *were* saying they should, that would violate the acceptance of people as they *are*. I've found it to be a helpful sort of attitude for myself, personally, except I have very little toleration for some characteristics and someone displaying those characteristics more prominently than the ones I consider to be more positive will likely get a Oh, man, why can't he be less --- in my head. That's something I need to work on more. (I think I figured out this week just why I, and a certain group I belong to, have little tolerance for one of those characteristics I perceive as negative. That may be a step in the right direction for me, at least to be able to step back and understand why I react badly to it.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
At 08:10 PM Saturday 11/15/2008, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: any theories why this person has such a mean streak. I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I would invite others to do the same, but I''m not saying they should. Nick That's my approach, too. Particularly on-line. Which doesn't mean I have to agree with whatever position they espouse. Far from it. But I think in general it is a lot more productive not to mention easier on /my/ mental and emotional state to discuss the ideas rather than the person and try to guess at his/her motivation(s) and the shortcomings of his/her personality and/or history . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
At 08:32 PM Saturday 11/15/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone attacks one of my kids or my wife I will put in some effort to have them realize that it will not be helpful to their own goals to keep up with such activity. If someone _physically_ attacks one of my kids or my wife (all hypothetical atm), they may find themselves suddenly with one or several surplus body openings in whatever caliber I can lay my hands on at the time . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
On 16/11/2008, at 1:10 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: I don't think that's my business. He is what he is. I find greater peace when I manage to accept people as they are, rather than as I think they should be. I would invite others to do the same, but I''m not saying they should. There's two sides to that. Yes, people have different opinions, viewpoints and characters, and it is good to be accepting of a range of views and opinions. One should certainly at least hear many views in order to explore ideaspace before settling on one's own position. But the other side is that in a community, there is behaviour that is simply unacceptable. Ad hominem, falsehoods and abuse (particularly unprovoked) are among those. It is hard to accept trolling. It is best to start by explaining where the offender is outside the range of acceptable behaviour or agreed code of standards. However, once someone consistently refuses to adhere to those, telling them outright they're out of order is the next reasonable step, along with replying to their posts that stay within the spirit of discussion and calling out ones that don't. Moderation follows - personally I think banning is extreme, and in a community like this simply choosing to pass over emails from certain individuals is usually enough. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... and try to guess at his/her motivation(s) and the shortcomings of his/her personality and/or history . . . That's just because you're weak-minded. Nick GSV Can't Resist Irony ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Charlie Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: There's two sides to that. Yes, people have different opinions, viewpoints and characters, and it is good to be accepting of a range of views and opinions. One should certainly at least hear many views in order to explore ideaspace before settling on one's own position. Hmmm. I didn't mean I accept their opinions, I meant accept that they have their opinions and it's not my job to try to change them. Terribly tempting, though. I also have to remind myself frequently that what other people think of me is none of my business. As the wise man used to yell, Can't make nobody do nuthin'! And a hearty Amen to the boundaries you described. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rude and insulting
Dan wrote: But, being called a looser on an internet list, that I might analyze, but not really have any emotional reaction to. Excellent attitude, Dan; attack the argument ignore the puerile aspects of the communication and don't take anything too personally. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
