Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory Robert wrote: It is not something substantiated. The quote comes from an unnamed source who purportedly heard it in a WH staffing meeting and subsequently blogged. http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml IMO, it should be noted, but not passed along as fact. The guy who wrote the article is a long time reporter and congressional staffer. Regarding his sources he said: Iâve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution âa goddamned piece of paper.â So three unnamed sources, all of whom would have been Republicans. But only reported through one source (AFAICT), hence the disclaimer. It would bear a lot more credence if the same story were being told via at least one other independent source. xponent Carefully Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...) On 12/21/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That it drives out small businesses that create qualitative and hard-to-quantify benefits? Sure, it drives out small businesses. Small businesses are rather inefficient at selling, and have to pass the cost on to the customer. There is a certain romanticism about small businesses. They still exist, of course, but they sell to higher income people who don't mind paying a significnt premium. You're writing as though efficiency at selling is the ultimate good. What if it isn't? As a matter of fact, I'm darn sure it isn't. And I suspect that the economy as a whole is less efficient when sectors become dominated by a few large players. Game theory, as well as many simulations, strongly support that idea. But, the efficiency improvement from Wal-Mart is documented. It is really efficiency. All that we *know* Wal-Mart is good at is getting big and keeping prices low. Not being a worshipper of low prices, I'm not willing to let that be the only bottom line. And cutting unnecessary costs. Wal-Mart has driven up _productivity_. Why shouldn't working class people shop where their money goes the furthest? What is wrong with offering something someone wants. People want low prices; Wal-Mart offers low prices, therefore Wal-Mart is good. Is that what you're saying? Cutting costs 10% is the same as getting an 11% raise. Wal-Mart's innovations have What about all the other things people want -- jobs that pay well, health insurance, less dependence on traveling long distances by car to shop and so forth? People want those, too, and Wal-Mart isn't delivering. They're taking away. Small businesses offer less in the way of health insurance than big businesses. The hardest hit with health insurance now are those who work for small businesses. In fact, Wal-Mart has now suggested federal involvement mandating health insurance for all retailers. They said that they can compete in that environment, but cannot offer $1000/month health packages to their workers if it wasn't required. I tell you what. If I went around to smaller retail shops and told sales clerks that I was doing an informal survey, how many do you think would be making $10.00/hour? How many would have health insurance. From talking to people I know who work those types of jobs, I've been told that Wal-Mart jobs look good compared to the average sales job in this area. I've tried to find statistics on this, and I've found from 2002, the following for convenience stores: http://tinyurl.com/d9wdq We see that the mean salary for full time clerks was $7.33/hour. IIRC, this is less than Wal-Mart's average...and not just of full time employees. Part time employees tend to make less than full time employees. Now, you can argue that lower income people don't know what's good for thembut a lot of them seem to have as much or more sense than the folks I see in designer clothes. Yes, I could, were I an elitist jerk. So don't go putting those words in my mouth. Should have been one can argueI didn't mean to imply that you do believe thatwas using you can as the less formal version of one can I've seen the false consciousness arguement come up over and over again, so I wanted to head it off before someone brought it up. From what you've said, you agree that consumers are capable of acting in their own best interest. So, if they want to drive 5-10 miles to save money, then we should assume that's a good tradeoff in their eyesand that they've made a better choice for themselves than anyone else could make for them. So, Wal-Mart is frequently the best choice for low income shoppers because they make a rational choice to shop there instead of at a higher priced small store. The only national example of small stores that I found (convenience stores), pay their full time clerks less than the average Wal-Mart salary. M The overwhelming evidence is that Wal-Mart stores improve the economics of the people who shop there vs. buying items at higher price stores. So this is the message to the people left behind by Wal-Mart efficiency -- Sorry you're out of work, your house is in foreclosure and you have no medical care... but be of good cheer, Wal-Mart is rolling back prices! I'm sure you'll be comforted knowing that if you had any money, it would go further at Wal-Mart. So far, efficiency has worked better than inefficiency. Productivity is the only possible foundation for rising average wage. How different is this from people losing jobs, such as secretaries, when computers make things so much more efficient? This is one area in which I agree with Brin stronglyfactories and efficiencies created the middle class. Low prices
Weird: Double-Mouthed Fish Pulled From Neb. Lake
I'll save the obvious wisecracks like it was probably a female fish, etc :-) (just kidding ladies!!) Seriously though, this is the stuff that myths are made of. Too bad this guy is so much of a Redneck that he's going to eat it. Personally, I would be afraid to eat it. Link to ABCnews.com story with a picture at the bottom. Gary Double-Mouthed Fish Pulled From Neb. Lake Fisherman Pulls Double-Mouthed Rainbow Trout From Holmes Lake in Nebraska The Associated Press LINCOLN, Neb. - This fish didn't have a chance. A rainbow trout pulled out of Holmes Lake last weekend had double the chance to get hooked: It had two mouths. Clarence Olberding, 57, wasn't just telling a fisherman's fib when he called over another angler to look at the two-mouthed trout. It weighed in at about a pound. I reached down and grabbed it to take the hook out, and that's when I noticed that the hook was in the upper mouth and there was another jaw protruding out below, said Olberding. He said in his 40 years of fishing, he's never seen anything like it. Don Gabelhouse, head of the fisheries division of the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission, said a two-mouthed fish was new to him, too. It's probably a genetic deformity, he said. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. The second mouth didn't appear to be functional, Olberding said. He has plans for the fish, which don't included mounting. I'm going to smoke it up and eat it, he said. Story and a picture. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1430351 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
On 22 Dec 2005, at 3:07 am, Russell Chapman wrote: William T Goodall wrote: Microsoft attained its dominant position in the personal computer software business through 1) Luck 2) Illegal business practices 3) The mistakes of its competitors and since a) Luck eventually runs out b) Microsoft is now closely scrutinised to ensure it doesn't break the law anymore c) The competition has wised up Microsoft's position can only decline from now. Microsoft may yet have another life if it manages to dominate the living room in the way it has done the office. Sales between Thanksgiving and Christmas of Media Centre edition PCs in the US have been staggering. They may have shown a staggering increase, but since the sales of Media Centre have been negligible for the last few years that doesn't amount to much. Perhaps this is the year it finally takes off. It's not that MS get that much more for the Media Centre version of Windows (they do, of course) but the stake being claimed in the living room. Once Xbox360 takes that next step into people's home lives, it may be that they have got far enough. Sony's devices are better, Apple's 10foot interface is better, but it's the Microsoft stuff people will have, so it is Microsoft that the content providers will have to deal with. The content providers are clearly signalling that they don't want to be locked into one DRM environment. And especially not Microsoft's. Rather than breaking the law, they will just ensure that DRM laws etc benefit them in the first place... The most widely used DRM system on Windows PCs now is Apple's Fairplay. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A bad thing done for a good cause is still a bad thing. It's why so few people slap their political opponents. That, and because slapping looks so silly. - Randy Cohen. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
At 09:39 PM Wednesday 12/21/2005, The Fool wrote: From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool -- From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] And no, I don't want us to be communist or something else, I just don't want my economy destroyed by rapacity. Since most products sold at walmart are made in china, shopping there is proping up and supporting red communism. Hmm, that's interesting. We know that Wal-Mart buys ~7.5 billion in goods directly from China and another 7.5 billion or so from suppliers buying from China. With almost 300 billion in sales, and a 3.6% profit margin, are you arguing that the original cost of the goods sold by Wal-Mart is only 5% of the final price...and ~90% is the cost of running Wal-Mart stores? Do you exclude food from your calculations? (Most food isn't grown in Red China) Do you also exclude srevices wal-mart has like their automotive service dept? And, fwiw (I haven't read every post in this thread in detail, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned) things like brand-name medicine which is produced here in the US that they sell at a substantially lower price than anyone else, even Walgreens? --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 05:30:07 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But only reported through one source (AFAICT), hence the disclaimer. It would bear a lot more credence if the same story were being told via at least one other independent source. xponent Carefully Maru rob Don't have time to go through these this morning but it looks as if the story is being told elsewhere: http://tinyurl.com/axo8j -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Query: spoken numbers in 1200 AD
How were numbers, such as 45, spoken in Italy, Germany, and Spain in 1200 AD? I am curious, because of my fury that in the Middle Ages, Christian Europe adopted an Indian/Arabic base 10 numerical system rather than the better base 12 system. Base 12 fits the number of Christian Apostles. It fits the number of eggs in dozen. In base 12, you can count on one hand. http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/base-12.html Were spoken numbers already in base 10? Was this a reason to adopt base 10 instead? In the 20th century, the French expressed numbers both with base 10 and with base 20: thus, 80 is quatre-vingts and 90 is quatre-vingts-dix. In the European Middle ages, did people -- in particular, merchants who kept accounts -- already have a sense of what is meant by 45 in base 10 but not for the equivalent 39 in base 12? (The advantage of Roman numerals is that they permitted easy addition and subtraction; Indian/Arabic numerals permitted relatively easy multiplication and division at the cost of harder addition and subtraction.) According to Bodmer, in the 20th century, Italian has quaranta for forty and cinque for five. I do not know the combination, but if it is like English, it is quaranta-cinque. That is base 10, as you would expect from the symbols. How was the number expressed in 1200 AD? -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
On 12/22/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, the efficiency improvement from Wal-Mart is documented. It is really efficiency. That's only one measurement. Surely you don't think that prices and profits are all there is to evaluating Wal-Mart? Are you unwilling to consider other measures of the efficiency and value of a company? All that we *know* Wal-Mart is good at is getting big and keeping prices low. Not being a worshipper of low prices, I'm not willing to let that be the only bottom line. And cutting unnecessary costs. Wal-Mart has driven up _productivity_. Again, by one measure. Who is measuring the productivity of the families and communities that are impacted by Wal-Mart? Shall we just ignore the way they treat employees? If so, then slavery is even more efficient, so what's stopping us? Cutting costs 10% is the same as getting an 11% raise. Wal-Mart's innovations have I can't believe you're serious. To the person who has no income, it's 11 percent of zero. To the person with no health insurance, it has no value. Small businesses offer less in the way of health insurance than big businesses. Wal-Mart is using all sorts of tactics to offer fewer benefits than most small businesses. Yes, I could, were I an elitist jerk. So don't go putting those words in my mouth. Should have been one can argueI didn't mean to imply that you do believe thatwas using you can as the less formal version of one can Why bring it up at all? It's a straw man. If everyone lived as though they truly loved each other, we wouldn't need much in the way of structure. But, people haven't been, are not, and will not be perfect in the future. Any system has to work when folks think more of themselves and their own families than other folks. It's not that we shouldn't care, it's that we should build a system that works with people as they are, not dependant on a general improvement in the morals of everyone. I don't even know what this means, really. We should rely only on market forces to achieve social and economic justice? If the market dictates that some people lose their jobs, then that must be okay? That's idolatry, not economics or morality. I see inefficiency as money down the toilet. Efficiency is the foundation of the world we live in. Zambia has a much much less efficient economy, mostly separated from world trade, and people are near starvation there. When the average farmer produces 5% more food than his/her family needs, then there is little room for error, as well as little chance for more than a few to rise above hand to mouth poverty. It's seriously twisted logic to argue that businesses that result in lower incomes, fewer benefits and fewer jobs is good for society just because it results in lower prices. Again I'll say, what stops us from the efficiency of slavery? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 12/21/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That it drives out small businesses that create qualitative and hard-to-quantify benefits? Sure, it drives out small businesses. Small businesses are rather inefficient at selling, and have to pass the cost on to the customer. There is a certain romanticism about small businesses. They still exist, of course, but they sell to higher income people who don't mind paying a significnt premium. You're writing as though efficiency at selling is the ultimate good. What if it isn't? As a matter of fact, I'm darn sure it isn't. And I suspect that the economy as a whole is less efficient when sectors become dominated by a few large players. Game theory, as well as many simulations, strongly support that idea. But, the efficiency improvement from Wal-Mart is documented. It is really efficiency. All that we *know* Wal-Mart is good at is getting big and keeping prices low. Not being a worshipper of low prices, I'm not willing to let that be the only bottom line. And cutting unnecessary costs. Wal-Mart has driven up _productivity_. 'Productivity' is just another word for the 'efficiency' that you worship like a supply sider. Why shouldn't working class people shop where their money goes the furthest? What is wrong with offering something someone wants. People want low prices; Wal-Mart offers low prices, therefore Wal-Mart is good. Is that what you're saying? Cutting costs 10% is the same as getting an 11% raise. Wal-Mart's innovations have .11 * 0 = 0 No it's not. And a five dollar gift certificate is really the same as having a five dollar bill in your wallet or in the bank...Not. What about all the other things people want -- jobs that pay well, health insurance, less dependence on traveling long distances by car to shop and so forth? People want those, too, and Wal-Mart isn't delivering. They're taking away. Small businesses offer less in the way of health insurance than big businesses. The hardest hit with health insurance now are those who work for small businesses. In fact, Wal-Mart has now suggested federal involvement mandating health insurance for all retailers. They said that they can compete in that environment, but cannot offer $1000/month health packages to their workers if it wasn't required. I tell you what. If I went around to smaller retail shops and told sales clerks that I was doing an informal survey, how many do you think would be making $10.00/hour? How many would have health insurance. From talking to people I know who work those types of jobs, I've been told that Wal-Mart jobs look good compared to the average sales job in this area. I've tried to find statistics on this, and I've found from 2002, the following for convenience stores: http://tinyurl.com/d9wdq We see that the mean salary for full time clerks was $7.33/hour. IIRC, this is less than Wal-Mart's average...and not just of full time employees. Part time employees tend to make less than full time employees. Funny about how people at wal-mart are not allowed to work full time (and recieve benifits) and funny how walmart has been found guilty of of changing workers time cards and locking workers in stores all night. All in the name of our goddess efficency. Now, you can argue that lower income people don't know what's good for thembut a lot of them seem to have as much or more sense than the folks I see in designer clothes. Yes, I could, were I an elitist jerk. So don't go putting those words in my mouth. Should have been one can argueI didn't mean to imply that you do believe thatwas using you can as the less formal version of one can I've seen the false consciousness arguement come up over and over again, so I wanted to head it off before someone brought it up. From what you've said, you agree that consumers are capable of acting in their own best interest. So, if they want to drive 5-10 miles to save money, then we should assume that's a good tradeoff in their eyesand that they've made a better choice for themselves than anyone else could make for them. So, Wal-Mart is frequently the best choice for low income shoppers because they make a rational choice to shop there instead of at a higher priced small store. The only national example of small stores that I found (convenience stores), pay their full time clerks less than the average Wal-Mart salary. Or perhaps walmart has driven out of buisiness most other viable stores to shop at andd they have no choice. And lets not forget how wal-mart is systematically driving it's suppliers into bankruptcy, which also drives those supplyers out of business and to cutting good paying american jobs and moving thoser jobs to Red China and India. That 'efficiency' is just wonderful
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
On Dec 22, 2005, at 3:50 AM, Dan Minette wrote: Small businesses offer less in the way of health insurance than big businesses. And Wal-Mart offers even less than most small businesses. Are you sure you're helping your case? Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 12/22/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And cutting unnecessary costs. Wal-Mart has driven up _productivity_. Again, by one measure. Who is measuring the productivity of the families and communities that are impacted by Wal-Mart? Shall we just ignore the way they treat employees? If so, then slavery is even more efficient, so what's stopping us? Well, Wal-Mart has been found guilty of part-time slavery, modifying employees' timecards and forcing them to work unpaid overtime. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
On Dec 22, 2005, at 7:08 AM, Doug Pensinger wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 05:30:07 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But only reported through one source (AFAICT), hence the disclaimer. It would bear a lot more credence if the same story were being told via at least one other independent source. Don't have time to go through these this morning but it looks as if the story is being told elsewhere: http://tinyurl.com/axo8j A casual perusal of the items on that list suggests that most, if not all, take the original piece from the avowedly anti-Bush Capitol Hill Blue as source. I found a fine entry by a blogger who addressed the single-source problem for this quote by writing to her congresscritter: http://www.livejournal.com/users/kyrillandra/63023.html No answer yet from her Senator. This brings to mind the relationship between factuality and truth. I've been thinking about it in the context of Christianity and Biblical interpretation, but it obviously applies well beyond that narrow context. Western cultures equate truth with factuality. Nonetheless, myths, legends and other _stories_ have tremendous truth-value despite their being possibly apocryphal and sometimes provably unfactual. The story about how George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and did not tell a lie is a _founder's_myth_ that is accepted as _true_, even if it is probably not factual. It tells us something about George Washington and what we like to think about ourselves as a nation. The _truths_ of the Washington story -- that our first President was an honest man, that we imagine our national character to be truthful -- do not depend on its being a historical event. The story, attached to a vaunted founder, has doubtless helped generations of parents and teachers underline the value of truthfulness in their children. (At least one person in a class at my church commented on the irony of using a lie to teach about honesty, which probably says something about the commentator's concept of truth and factuality.) The GD piece of paper story -- factual or not -- resonates with what is for many people the _truth_ about George Bush: that his actions show that he thinks that the Constitution places undue and burdensome constraints on his freedom to act, and that he may go as far as to consider it just a GD piece of paper. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Dave Land wrote: The story about how George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and did not tell a lie is a _founder's_myth_ that is accepted as _true_, even if it is probably not factual. It tells us something about George Washington and what we like to think about ourselves as a nation. The _truths_ of the Washington story -- (...) I would interpret it by saying that GW had no respect for the ecosystem and was proud of it - which could explain the current global cathastrophic ecological status caused by USA industries all over the world :-)) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
On Dec 22, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Dave Land wrote: The story about how George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and did not tell a lie is a _founder's_myth_ that is accepted as _true_, even if it is probably not factual. It tells us something about George Washington and what we like to think about ourselves as a nation. The _truths_ of the Washington story -- (...) I would interpret it by saying that GW had no respect for the ecosystem and was proud of it - which could explain the current global cathastrophic ecological status caused by USA industries all over the world :-)) Whereas Oil-polluting, Amazon-destroying Brazil is a model for the rest of the world :-b. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
On 22 Dec 2005, at 7:07 pm, Dave Land wrote: This brings to mind the relationship between factuality and truth. I've been thinking about it in the context of Christianity and Biblical interpretation, but it obviously applies well beyond that narrow context. Western cultures equate truth with factuality. Nonetheless, myths, legends and other _stories_ have tremendous truth-value despite their being possibly apocryphal and sometimes provably unfactual. The story about how George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and did not tell a lie is a _founder's_myth_ that is accepted as _true_, even if it is probably not factual. It tells us something about George Washington and what we like to think about ourselves as a nation. The _truths_ of the Washington story -- that our first President was an honest man, that we imagine our national character to be truthful -- do not depend on its being a historical event. The story, attached to a vaunted founder, has doubtless helped generations of parents and teachers underline the value of truthfulness in their children. (At least one person in a class at my church commented on the irony of using a lie to teach about honesty, which probably says something about the commentator's concept of truth and factuality.) The GD piece of paper story -- factual or not -- resonates with what is for many people the _truth_ about George Bush: that his actions show that he thinks that the Constitution places undue and burdensome constraints on his freedom to act, and that he may go as far as to consider it just a GD piece of paper. The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. - Judge John E. Jones III I think I prefer my truths to be true rather than what someone happens to think is expediently 'true' in the service of their agenda. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ 'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Dave Land wrote: Whereas Oil-polluting, Amazon-destroying Brazil is a model for the rest of the world :-b. Yes! Why keep the useless Amazon if we don't get paid for it? Let's burn it all and make a huge parking lot! But I deny the accusation of oil-polluting! Oil is Good, all other energy sources are Evil. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Query: spoken numbers in 1200 AD
Robert J. Chassell wrote: I am curious, because of my fury that in the Middle Ages, Christian Europe adopted an Indian/Arabic base 10 numerical system rather than the better base 12 system. Base 12 fits the number of Christian Apostles. It fits the number of eggs in dozen. In base 12, you can count on one hand. As a person who has had to work across radixes it is much easier to deal with radixes that are powers of two (binary, base 4, octal, hexadecimal) than any other arbitrary base. There's a reason computers use binary or unary. Base 12 sounds ridiculous, and all the more ridiculous for your religious ranting and racism. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ History bleeds for tomorrow / for us to realize and never more follow blind --Machinae Supremacy, Deus Ex Machinae, Title Track ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Query: spoken numbers in 1200 AD
On Dec 22, 2005, at 11:21 AM, Max Battcher wrote: Robert J. Chassell wrote: I am curious, because of my fury that in the Middle Ages, Christian Europe adopted an Indian/Arabic base 10 numerical system rather than the better base 12 system. Base 12 fits the number of Christian Apostles. It fits the number of eggs in dozen. In base 12, you can count on one hand. As a person who has had to work across radixes it is much easier to deal with radixes that are powers of two (binary, base 4, octal, hexadecimal) than any other arbitrary base. There's a reason computers use binary or unary. Base 12 sounds ridiculous, and all the more ridiculous for your religious ranting and racism. Every base system is ridiculous and arbitrary, religious ranting and racism notwithstanding. Case in point: express the (extremely common) quantity 1/10 exactly in binary... Wikipedia, that knower of all things knowable, correct or not, goes on and on and on and on about number bases at http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Numeral_system and on about a billion pages linked from it in the right-hand column. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Query: spoken numbers in 1200 AD
At 01:21 PM Thursday 12/22/2005, Max Battcher wrote: Robert J. Chassell wrote: I am curious, because of my fury that in the Middle Ages, Christian Europe adopted an Indian/Arabic base 10 numerical system rather than the better base 12 system. Base 12 fits the number of Christian Apostles. It fits the number of eggs in dozen. In base 12, you can count on one hand. As a person who has had to work across radixes it is much easier to deal with radixes that are powers of two (binary, base 4, octal, hexadecimal) than any other arbitrary base. There's a reason computers use binary or unary. Base 12 sounds ridiculous, and all the more ridiculous for your religious ranting and racism. I'm sure you all know the answer to this one: What do you get if you multiply six by nine? You need to count Judas . . . --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
More Debris Around Uranus
Dec. 22, 2005 Dwayne Brown/George Deutsch Headquarters, Washington (202) 358-1726/1324 Ray Villard Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore (410) 338-4514 RELEASE: 05-590 NASA'S HUBBLE DISCOVERS NEW RINGS AND MOONS AROUND URANUS NASA's Hubble Space Telescope photographed a new pair of rings around Uranus and two new, small moons orbiting the planet. The largest ring is twice the diameter of the planet's previously known rings. The rings are so far from the planet, they are being called Uranus' second ring system. One of the new moons shares its orbit with one of the rings. Analysis of the Hubble data also reveals the orbits of Uranus' family of inner moons have changed significantly over the past decade. The detection of these new interacting rings and moons will help us better understand how planetary systems are formed and sustained, which is of key importance to NASA's scientific exploration goals, said Dr. Jennifer Wiseman, program scientist for Hubble at NASA Headquarters. Since dust orbiting Uranus is expected to be depleted by spiraling away, the planet's rings must be continually replenished with fresh material. The new discoveries demonstrate that Uranus has a youthful and dynamic system of rings and moons, said Mark Showalter of the SETI Institute, Baltimore. Showalter and Jack Lissauer of NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffet Field, Calif., propose that the outermost ring is replenished by a 12-mile-wide newly discovered moon, named Mab, which they first observed using Hubble in 2003. Meteoroid impacts continually blast dust off the surface of Mab. The dust then spreads out into a ring around Uranus. Mab's ring receives a fresh infusion of dust from each impact. Nature keeps the ring supplied with new dust while older dust spirals away or bangs back into the moon. Showalter and Lissauer have measured numerous changes to the orbits of Uranus' inner moons since 1994. The moon's motions were derived from earlier Hubble and Voyager observations. This appears to be a random or chaotic process, where there is a continual exchange of energy and angular momentum between the moons, Lissauer said. His calculations predict moons would begin to collide as often as every few million years, which is extraordinarily short compared to the 4.5 billion year age of the Uranian system. Showalter and Lissauer believe the discovery of the second ring, which orbits closer to the planet than the outer ring, provides further evidence that collisions affect the evolution of the system. This second ring has no visible body to re-supply it with dust. The ring may be a telltale sign of an unseen belt of bodies a few feet to a few miles in size. Showalter proposes that a previous impact to one of Uranus' moons could have produced the observed debris ring. Hubble uncovered the rings in August 2004 during a series of 80, four-minute exposures of Uranus. The team later recognized the faint new rings in 24 similar images taken a year earlier. Images from September 2005 reveal the rings even more clearly. Showalter also found the rings in archival images taken during Voyager 2's flyby of Uranus in 1986. Uranus's first nine rings were discovered in 1977 during observations of the planet's atmosphere. During the Voyager encounters, two other inner rings and 10 moons were discovered. However, no one noticed the outer rings, because they are extremely faint and much farther from the planet than expected. Showalter was able to find them by a careful analysis of nearly 100 Voyager images. Because the new rings are nearly transparent, they will be easier to see when they tilt edge-on. The new rings will increase in brightness every year as Uranus approaches its equinox, when the sun shines directly over the planet's equator. When it happens in 2007, all of the rings will be tilted edge-on toward Earth and easier to study. These research data will appear in an upcoming issue of the journal Science. The Hubble Space Telescope is a project of international cooperation between NASA and the European Space Agency. The Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore conducts Hubble science operations. The Institute is operated for NASA by the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc., Washington. The Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Mass. is a joint collaboration between the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory and the Harvard College Observatory. For images and information about Hubble and this research on the Web, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/hubble or http://hubblesite.org/news/2005/33 -end- To subscribe to the list, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To remove your address from the list, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from
RE: More Debris Around Uranus
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: NASA'S HUBBLE DISCOVERS NEW RINGS AND MOONS AROUND URANUS Does it make me a bad person that my first thought was that this was going to be a gag post? :-) Jim Debris around my conscience Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More Debris Around Uranus
In a message dated 12/22/2005 6:43:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does it make me a bad person that my first thought was that this was going to be a gag post? :-) Groove Tube lives! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Query: spoken numbers in 1200 AD
Max Battcher wrote: As a person who has had to work across radixes it is much easier to deal with radixes that are powers of two (binary, base 4, octal, hexadecimal) than any other arbitrary base. There's a reason computers use binary or unary. They make significantly more sense than base 10, for most things. Base 12 sounds ridiculous, Not if you routinely have to divide numbers into thirds or sixths, something that's not too uncommon in the real world. Thirds and sixths are pretty common in nature. 12 is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, a much better list of factors than the puny 2 and 5 you get with base 10. and all the more ridiculous for your religious ranting and racism. To quote Bailiff Bull Shannon, Oookay... I didn't see either of those things in Robert's post. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More Debris Around Uranus
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) Judging from the title of the post, I thought we'd get an American Standard sig... ;-) __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wal-Mart efficiency (was Re: My annual Xmas tirade...)
On 22 Dec 2005, at 6:01 pm, Dave Land wrote: On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On 12/22/05, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And cutting unnecessary costs. Wal-Mart has driven up _productivity_. Again, by one measure. Who is measuring the productivity of the families and communities that are impacted by Wal-Mart? Shall we just ignore the way they treat employees? If so, then slavery is even more efficient, so what's stopping us? Well, Wal-Mart has been found guilty of part-time slavery, modifying employees' timecards and forcing them to work unpaid overtime. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1435073 Wal-Mart Stores Inc. WMT.N must pay $172 million in damages and compensation to about 116,000 current and former employees for denying meal breaks, a California jury ruled on Thursday. Concluding a class-action court challenge against the world's biggest retailer, the Alameda County, California jury held that Wal-Mart had broken a state law on breaks for meals. ... Wal-Mart faces similar lawsuits in over 30 states, said Grant, whose firm is pressing two of the court challenges, one in Maryland and the other in Massachusetts, on behalf of 80,000 class-action plaintiffs. Wal-Mart was not immediately available for comment. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Our products just aren't engineered for security. - Brian Valentine, senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development team. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:08 AM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 05:30:07 -0600, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But only reported through one source (AFAICT), hence the disclaimer. It would bear a lot more credence if the same story were being told via at least one other independent source. xponent Carefully Maru rob Don't have time to go through these this morning but it looks as if the story is being told elsewhere: http://tinyurl.com/axo8j All quotes of the CHB article unfortunately. That is a problem with blogs. The way they quote each other constantly, while often handy as helps to find news, is a bit incestuous. xponent Needs More Time Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Flashback
Deborah Harrell wrote: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's a song, They'll Know We are Christians by Our Love. whiplash Whew, just got jolted back to Vacation Bible School -- is that a Lutheran song, or generic Protestant? :) Well, I learned it as an Episcopalian, and my Catholic friend across the street knew it, as well. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Robert wrote: All quotes of the CHB article unfortunately. That is a problem with blogs. The way they quote each other constantly, while often handy as helps to find news, is a bit incestuous. So when Woodward and Bernstien broke the Watergate stuff and all the other newspapers printed their story, was that incestuous? Was their story not credible because they only had a few anonymous sources? The big papers are far more careful now than they were back then, but it has as much to do with being corpratized than anything else. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
