Re: AlphaServers

2018-03-12 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk 
On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I have an ES47 I got for a price I could stomach, but it's sans rail kit, 
> drinks power like it's going out of style, and can anchor a 40-ft yacht.
>
> Anyone out there do Alphas anymore?

I have a 2 drawer / 4 processor ES47 system with the interprocessor
cables, but no rack hardware. The hardware was somewhat cheap enough,
the shipping was not. I really should have passed on it. I have
probably only powered it up less than a dozen times in the 5 years
I've had it. Too much hassle to set it up somewhere to use it.

The dual processor AS1200 system seems small and light in comparison,
while of course it is neither. I booted that up a month or so ago when
I needed access to a Tru64 system to mount a disc that I was unable to
mount anywhere else.

Re: AlphaServers

2018-03-12 Thread Richard Loken via cctalk 

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote:


Anyone out there do Alphas anymore?


Well my AS4100 is running OpenVMS even as we speak.  I have an Alphastation
500 here doing nothing.  I arranged for somebody to get two free DS20Es
last year so, yes, I still do alphas.

Intel?  Don't need no stinkin' intel around here.

--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV: "...underneath those tuques we wear,
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada   : our heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: AlphaServers

2018-03-12 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk 
I have a Compaq XP1000/667 that’s my primary VMS system.  I picked up a couple 
XP1000’s a little over a decade ago when they were affordable, as a replacement 
for my AlphaStation 433au.  I need a new power supply for the /500.  I think 
the days of hobbyist-friendly prices are largely gone.

Realistically the XP1000 and it’s two external JBOD pull a lot more power than 
I like, and I’ve been working to migrate much of my VMS activity to a SIMH/VAX 
cluster that the XP1000 is now part of.  Once that’s done, I’m considering 
seeing about reviving one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s as a “lower power” VMS 
workstation.  The one AlphaStation 200 used to run OpenBSD, nearly 20 years 
ago.  Other than that I’ve used them for VMS.

Oh, and I do keep one Physical VAX running, it’s a VAXstation 4000/60.  I have 
other VAXen and Alpha’s, but they aren’t doing anything.

Zane



> On Mar 12, 2018, at 9:25 PM, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Place your wagers...
> 
> 
> How many more years do you think it'll take before decent, practical-sized 
> Alphas, like the DS15, and to some degree, the DS10, will be obtainable at 
> hobbyist-friendly prices?
> 
> 
> I have an ES47 I got for a price I could stomach, but it's sans rail kit, 
> drinks power like it's going out of style, and can anchor a 40-ft yacht.
> 
> 
> Anyone out there do Alphas anymore?

AlphaServers

2018-03-12 Thread Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk 
Place your wagers...


How many more years do you think it'll take before decent, practical-sized 
Alphas, like the DS15, and to some degree, the DS10, will be obtainable at 
hobbyist-friendly prices?


I have an ES47 I got for a price I could stomach, but it's sans rail kit, 
drinks power like it's going out of style, and can anchor a 40-ft yacht.


Anyone out there do Alphas anymore?

Re: GRI 771 Keyboard Info

2018-03-12 Thread systems_glitch via cctalk 
Martin Eberhard got me the schematic for the GR 721, which is very similar
-- I traced the pinout on the DB25 and it's correct for the 771. In case
anyone else needs it:

http://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/030-Keyboards/George%20Risk/GR%20721%20Keyboard%20Schematic.JPG

The 771 needs +5 and -12 for its keyboard controller and the mix of 7400
series logic on it. There are apparently versions that take unregulated
power, and even some with a built-in AC power supply. It's got internal
jumpers for selecting strobe (+/- pulse, +/- level). The lower 7 bits of
the ASCII data is gated onto the bus by the strobe, but the high bit
(parity) is always being fed out.

Anyway, I have it hooked up to a bench supply for power, and jumpered to
the Polymorphic VTI's keyboard port. It reads fine, there's still something
going on with the CPU board though.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 1:13 PM, dwight via cctalk 
wrote:

> What kind of parts does it have? If it is all ttl, you only need to
> connect 5 volts and ground. There will be a strobe, 7 or 8 bits of data and
> possible wires for repeat ( usually these go directly to the keyboards
> repeat switch, without logic.
>
> Older keyboards required a negative rail. This was usually for a ROM or
> EPROM.
>
> With ttl parts, finding power and ground is easy. A little checking with a
> scope and ascii table will quickly find the rest.
>
> Many keyboards had stable data for both positive and negative edges of the
> strobe so that may not be an issue.
>
> Dwight
>
>
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 9:27:33 AM
> To: systems_glitch via cctalk
> Subject: Re: GRI 771 Keyboard Info
>
> On 03/12/2018 07:44 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > I'm looking for info on a George Risk 771 parallel ASCII keyboard. I've
> got
> > one but no documentation or existing cabling. I'd like to interface it to
> > my Poly-88.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan
> >
>
>
> Wasn't there something about that keyboard in the Apple I documentation?
>  I can't recall exactly, but it sounds familiar.
>
>
> --Chuck
>

RE: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Paul Birkel via cctalk 
-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Berger 
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 1:41 PM
To: Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
Subject: Re: XT/370 microcode

The IBM Systems Journal article does not go into great detail but says 
that a complex of three separate processors are used, a modified 68000 
that executes "a large subset of 370 instructions", a standard 68000 to 
emulate the remainder odf the instructions and a modified 8087 to 
execute the floating point.  I am not at liberty to post the document.

Paul.
-

This one?  Seems to be freely available.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224102395_System370_capability_in_a_desktop_computer

-
paul

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Liam Proven via cctalk 
On 12 March 2018 at 18:41, Paul Berger via cctalk  wrote:
> I am not at liberty to post the document.

This?

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5387781/?reload=true

Also:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224102395_System370_capability_in_a_desktop_computer

If so, it might be this:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2007/dc1c4e24b021765707191eeef5930b29a69c.pdf


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
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Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Paul Berger via cctalk 
The IBM Systems Journal article does not go into great detail but says 
that a complex of three separate processors are used, a modified 68000 
that executes "a large subset of 370 instructions", a standard 68000 to 
emulate the remainder odf the instructions and a modified 8087 to 
execute the floating point.  I am not at liberty to post the document.


Paul.


On 2018-03-12 2:11 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:



On Mar 12, 2018, at 9:57 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
wrote:

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On 2018-03-12 15:49, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:

As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
can't easily paper over that.

I wouldn't bet on that ...


I'm fairly sure of it, based on microarchitectural details in the US
patents on the 68000 design.

I think there was also an article in the IBM Systems Journal when the XT/370
was announced that basically described how this was done and how everything
worked.

TTFN - Guy

Re: GRI 771 Keyboard Info

2018-03-12 Thread dwight via cctalk 
What kind of parts does it have? If it is all ttl, you only need to connect 5 
volts and ground. There will be a strobe, 7 or 8 bits of data and possible 
wires for repeat ( usually these go directly to the keyboards repeat switch, 
without logic.

Older keyboards required a negative rail. This was usually for a ROM or EPROM.

With ttl parts, finding power and ground is easy. A little checking with a 
scope and ascii table will quickly find the rest.

Many keyboards had stable data for both positive and negative edges of the 
strobe so that may not be an issue.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 9:27:33 AM
To: systems_glitch via cctalk
Subject: Re: GRI 771 Keyboard Info

On 03/12/2018 07:44 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> All,
>
> I'm looking for info on a George Risk 771 parallel ASCII keyboard. I've got
> one but no documentation or existing cabling. I'd like to interface it to
> my Poly-88.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>


Wasn't there something about that keyboard in the Apple I documentation?
 I can't recall exactly, but it sounds familiar.


--Chuck

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk 


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 9:57 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-03-12 15:49, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>>> As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
>>> architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
>>> eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
>>> can't easily paper over that.
>> 
>> I wouldn't bet on that ...
>> 
> 
> I'm fairly sure of it, based on microarchitectural details in the US
> patents on the 68000 design.

I think there was also an article in the IBM Systems Journal when the XT/370
was announced that basically described how this was done and how everything
worked.

TTFN - Guy

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Eric Smith via cctalk 
On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2018-03-12 15:49, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> > As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
> > architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
> > eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
> > can't easily paper over that.
>
> I wouldn't bet on that ...
>

I'm fairly sure of it, based on microarchitectural details in the US
patents on the 68000 design.

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread emanuel stiebler via cctalk 
On 2018-03-12 15:49, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
> architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
> eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
> can't easily paper over that.

Forgot the smiley:

;-) ;-) ;-)

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread emanuel stiebler via cctalk 
On 2018-03-12 15:49, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
> architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
> eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
> can't easily paper over that.

I wouldn't bet on that ...

Re: GRI 771 Keyboard Info

2018-03-12 Thread Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
On 03/12/2018 07:44 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> All,
> 
> I'm looking for info on a George Risk 771 parallel ASCII keyboard. I've got
> one but no documentation or existing cabling. I'd like to interface it to
> my Poly-88.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
> 


Wasn't there something about that keyboard in the Apple I documentation?
 I can't recall exactly, but it sounds familiar.


--Chuck

RE: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Dave Wade via cctalk 
Some of the code is now on bitsavers..

 

Dave

 

From: Eric Smith  
Sent: 12 March 2018 14:41
To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Cc: Lars Brinkhoff 
Subject: Re: XT/370 microcode

 

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 05:13 Dave Wade via cctalk  > wrote:

. Wikipedia says there were/are
2x68000 CPU's..

 

One Motorola chip was the custom one, the other was normal (as indicated by 
mask code). There was also an Intel math co, presumably derived from 8087.

 

I used to have an AT/370, which had the same chipset, but I was never able to 
obtain the software.

 

I very strongly suspect the modified 68000 and 8087 have more than just 
microcode differences, and that full reverse-engineering of the die would be 
necessary to accomplish anything useful with the microcode. Neither chip was 
designed to be a general-purpose microcode engine; both were very heavily 
tailored for their exact visible architecture, and 370 architecture is enough 
different that it couldn't be implemented by microcode only changes with no 
data path changes; the microcode ROMs and PLAs just aren't big enough to work 
around the data path issues.

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Eric Smith via cctalk 
As the most obvious example of the impedance mismatch between 370
architecture and 68000 microarchitecture, the 68000 is hardwired to have
eight each data and address registers, not sixteen GPRs, and microcode
can't easily paper over that.

Similarly, the 8087 microarchitecture has hardwired support for binary
floating point normalization, and microcode can't efficiently force that to
do radix 16 normalization.

Both problems could be surmounted (inefficiently) with enough microcode,
but the chips were designed with no significant extra microcode ROM and PLA
capacity.

GRI 771 Keyboard Info

2018-03-12 Thread systems_glitch via cctalk 
All,

I'm looking for info on a George Risk 771 parallel ASCII keyboard. I've got
one but no documentation or existing cabling. I'd like to interface it to
my Poly-88.

Thanks,
Jonathan

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Eric Smith via cctalk 
On Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 05:13 Dave Wade via cctalk 
wrote:

> . Wikipedia says there were/are
> 2x68000 CPU's..
>

One Motorola chip was the custom one, the other was normal (as indicated by
mask code). There was also an Intel math co, presumably derived from 8087.

I used to have an AT/370, which had the same chipset, but I was never able
to obtain the software.

I very strongly suspect the modified 68000 and 8087 have more than just
microcode differences, and that full reverse-engineering of the die would
be necessary to accomplish anything useful with the microcode. Neither chip
was designed to be a general-purpose microcode engine; both were very
heavily tailored for their exact visible architecture, and 370 architecture
is enough different that it couldn't be implemented by microcode only
changes with no data path changes; the microcode ROMs and PLAs just aren't
big enough to work around the data path issues.

Re: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk 
Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Does someone have good connections with people inside IBM?  I'd like to
> ask about 68000 microcode for the XT/370 product.

Martin Ziskind says he has floppy disks with VM/PC, but no way to read
them.

Texas Instruments Silent 703/707 print head anyone?

2018-03-12 Thread Martin Hepperle via cctalk 
Hi,

last weekend I cleaned and restored a TI Silent 703 printing terminal.
A rather common type with its whopping 300 baud transfer rate - nevertheless
a piece of history.

It was easy to fix a broken trace on the keyboard PCB (corrosion) and to
roughen the idler roller for better grip on the paper.

Now there is one issue left:
The print head is missing one dot (infinite resistance: burnt out) and one
dot prints weak (resistor seems to have twice the resistance of the others,
which are all around 95 Ohms). 

As these terminals were produced in large numbers and the printhead/ribbon
cable combo was a user serviceable part someone might have some spare
parts...
So: if you have a new or used part
#2310472-0001   printhead, thermal
I would be interested. 
It is a 10 wire ribbon cable with the print head. It was used in the 703 and
707 and probably also in other devices of the TI 700 Silent family.

Martin

RE: XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Dave Wade via cctalk 
I don't suppose any one left in IBM has any knowledge of this. Perhaps no
one ever did and it was all done by Motorola. Wikipedia says there were/are
2x68000 CPU's..
.. I would ask on IBM Main...

http://www.cpushack.com/2013/03/22/cpu-of-the-day-ibm-micro-370/

seems to have some names..

Dave



> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Lars Brinkhoff
> via cctalk
> Sent: 12 March 2018 07:02
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: XT/370 microcode
> 
> Does someone have good connections with people inside IBM?  I'd like to
ask
> about 68000 microcode for the XT/370 product.

XT/370 microcode

2018-03-12 Thread Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk 
Does someone have good connections with people inside IBM?  I'd like to
ask about 68000 microcode for the XT/370 product.