Re: Getting out of the hobby

[william degnan]

On Oct 15, 2016 1:06 AM, "drlegendre ."  wrote:
>
> >
> > There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
> >> definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that
> >>
> > this
>
> > list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As
> >>
> > noted,
>
> > the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron'
> >>
> > gear,
>
> > many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
> >>
> >
> Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
> > question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are
> >
> minicomputers
>
> > welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
>
>
> If my previous observations on the genesis of the list don't match
reality,
> I'm perfectly willing to be corrected - in fact, I like what I've been
> hearing about the origins of the list. That said, the vast majority of
list
> traffic seems to focus on minicomputers "and up" (or, and back as it
were),
> and I assumed that it's always been this way.
>
> As another member recently noted, much of what tumbles past me on this
list
> is totally outside of my 'classic computer' world. Though, again, I'd have
> no trouble whatsoever geeking out - and fully - over some mini hardware,
if
> that's the sort of thing I could possibly have room for in my home or my
> life.
>
> This said, it's clear to see that most of the list traffic is well outside
> of the 8-bit / 16-bit micro era. And if the list is to survive over the
> long-term, then more of the micro kids like myself need to be brought
> deeper into the fold. Don't you think?
>

I am a member of a handful of lists related to vintage computing.  This
list has one of the broadest on- topic scopes and yes it is not centered on
8bit home computing.  There are not a lot of posts about Apples and
Commodores and such because a lot of the hardware problems that typically
come up about these systems have long ago been beaten to death. I think you
read more about minis and other types a lot on cctech because some of us
are attempting to work on "something else" other than just 8bit machines to
push into new areas and there is a lot of enthusiasm for it.  And there are
not as many sources of info, and these projects tend to be never ending :-)
.

FYI minis and workstations   overlap a longer tumespan than 8bit home
machines, there are a ton of hobbyists who collect and or support these
machines.   I was much more 8 bit focused before but at some point I
shifted to explore more vintage eras.  Both forward and backward in time.

I joined in the earlier 200x's .

I think my first post was in reply to someone who wanted to boot a GRID
laptop from an external drive and I happened to know the keystroke combo.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Rick Bensene

> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time)
> floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the
> main CPU 

I wonder if the machines in the auction had this?

Noel

Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

[David Brownlee]

On 15 October 2016 at 03:29, Tony Aiuto  wrote:

> I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines.  The 32/77 was an original
> SEL design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time
> OS. TTL based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made
> slight hardware changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the
> PowerNode PN7000 and PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we
> took a few 77's and changed one board in the chassis to turn them into
> PowerNodes.
>

Random Gould side reference.

We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the
late 90's (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a
whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I
cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they
would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour,
numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII)

I remember looking at the filesystem and thinking "Mmm, on disk formats
with 32 bit timestamps but with padding ready to be taken to 64 bit when
needed, nice future proofing".

When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left
forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found to
have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all
over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine. Quite robust that
ECL :)

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Sam O'nella]

Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep 
us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-)
 Original message From: "Mark J. Blair" 
》the deal to be completed in a little over a week

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Fred Cisin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Corey Cohen wrote:
A few more things to note.  Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big 
deal.  Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked.  And make sure you 
have the personality module included.


Does the disk system include a boot disk?   Minus a few hundred, if not!

What documentation comes with it?
Some manuals, such as Digital Research CP/M manuals add only a little.
But any original ProcTology (not the official nickname) manuals are to be 
prized.  I've heard that a lot of that is now available online.



NO idea about price(s).

My first Apple2 was a home lashup where somebody put an Apple motherboard 
into a Sol case, with an RCA membrane keyboard connected by a cable 
hanging out the front.  He sold it to me for $150 when he finally got a 
"REAL" Apple2 in a REAL Apple case.   WHY did I give that away?


Later, I was given a Sol-20, without disk drive.  After it had been 
hanging around for years, I loaned it to a colleague, for him to try to 
get his going.  But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other 
things, retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much 
old computer stuff.  The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but 
the college had already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Mark J. Blair]

As promised, I have an update: The seller and I have finished haggling, with 
the deal to be completed in a little over a week, for an undisclosed sum to be 
paid in small, unmarked bills. Thanks for the help, folks!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:33, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> 
> I treat syphilis, in case anyone on this list requires that.

Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go through the 
roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2016 05:49 PM, Steven M Jones wrote:
> On 10/15/16 12:49, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 
>> I can read about using arsphenamine to treat syphilis, for example
>> (historically important), without contracting the disease and
>> treating it myself just for "the experience".
> 
> Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of
> us still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the
> debilitating mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

My point blew right past you, apparently--yet I stated it as clearly as
I could.  So please permit me to try again:

When was the last time an audience reacted the way they first did in
1913 upon witnessing the performance of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"?

Probably never again, as nearly as I can determine.  Now, the work
barely raises anything more than the standard mandatory standing
O--regardless of the performance quality.

My use of Ehrlich's treatment for a venereal disease as an example was
entirely on-point.  Once a treatment for the disease had been
discovered, it would never be viewed the same way--the world and its
perception had been permanently altered.  On the other hand, reading
Ehrlich's writings gives us a clue to the way  he felt about what he was
doing and the significance of his results at the time.

Collecting hardware in hopes of repeating the original experience is an
exercise in futility.  When was the last time you ooh-ed and ah-ed over
a color television broadcast?  Yet, for me, I recall seeing that NBC
peacock display at a friend's home on his RCA set was nothing short of
spectacular.  While it's no longer spectacular, I can still read
accounts of the people behind the technology to get an idea of how
significant it was.

We are all, hopefully, human and the nature of our minds and existence
has shown that we can't go home again.

--Chuck

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2016 08:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> " I can read about using arsphenamine to treat syphilis, for example
> (historically important), without contracting the disease and
> treating it myself just for "the experience"."
> 
> Thanks for that, Chuck.. while it makes the point, it's still one of
> the screwiest analogies ever.

Okay, I regret that analogy, however apt or inapt.

I should have used smallpox.  :)

--Chuck

Re: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66?

[killingsworth . todd]

Or Atlanta perhaps?
Todd Killingsworth 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Paxton Hoag  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison  wrote:
>> 
>> I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a
>> 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something.
>> Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not
>> hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power
>> on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge
>> pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare
>> keyboard and mouse too.
>> 
>> Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers.
>> 
>> I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not
>> interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a
>> machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty
>> of DOS machines here and did not bother.
>> 
>> I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit
>> on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for
>> grabs too.
>> 
>> I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a
>> spot on my desk and fire them up.
>> 
>> --Devin
> 
> I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer located?
> 
> Paxton
> 
> -- 
> Paxton Hoag
> Astoria, OR
> USA

Re: Unibus controller for MFM disks

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:33 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built
> some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his.
> 

No, I haven’t had any time to work on stuff.  I still have the prototype
MEM11A only half built.

> 
> On 10/14/16 8:25 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
>> I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412
>> interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in
>> need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an
>> option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators.
>> 
>> -chuck
>> 
> 

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Ian S. King]

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other things,
> retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much old
> computer stuff.  The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but the
> college had already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office.
>
> Please tell me that said institution has since been burned to the ground.
 "That junk", indeed.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:42, Corey Cohen  wrote:
> 
> The disk drive can really affect value.  If it's a Northstar system, then 
> maybe add 400 bucks the most.  If it's a Helios.  A working drive can be 
> priceless if the drive is still the original Persci one.

I believe that it has a Morrow Disk Jockey controller, and one or two external 
Morrow drives marked "Thinker Toys" on the back (not sure whether one or two 
are part of the offer yet).

Anyway, thanks for the input, everybody! I've made an offer, and I'll post an 
update after the seller and I either reach a deal or decide we're too far apart 
on price. Either way, this is fun!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:02, Sam O'nella  wrote:
> 
> Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep 
> us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-)

I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an 
interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular computers. As 
the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of Processor Technology 
had a contract to remove wharfs from along the Mississippi river, which 
happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, the SOL-20 received stylish 
black walnut side panels, hopefully without too much lingering wharf smell. I 
don't know if the tale is true, but I have chosen to believe it.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Steven M Jones]

On 10/15/16 12:49, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> I can read about using arsphenamine
> to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
> contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".

Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of us
still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the debilitating
mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

--S.

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Fred Cisin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Ian S. King wrote:

Please tell me that said institution has since been burned to the ground.
"That junk", indeed.


WHEN they burn to the ground (there are four campuses and a small complex 
of administration buildings), I will lose my retirement health benefits.

But, my pension is managed by the state, so I would get by.

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Corey Cohen]

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
> On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Corey Cohen wrote:
>> A few more things to note.  Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big deal. 
>>  Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked.  And make sure you have the 
>> personality module included.
> 
> Does the disk system include a boot disk?   Minus a few hundred, if not!
> 
> What documentation comes with it?
> Some manuals, such as Digital Research CP/M manuals add only a little.
> But any original ProcTology (not the official nickname) manuals are to be 
> prized.  I've heard that a lot of that is now available online.
> 
> 
> NO idea about price(s).
> 
> My first Apple2 was a home lashup where somebody put an Apple motherboard 
> into a Sol case, with an RCA membrane keyboard connected by a cable hanging 
> out the front.  He sold it to me for $150 when he finally got a "REAL" Apple2 
> in a REAL Apple case.   WHY did I give that away?
> 
> Later, I was given a Sol-20, without disk drive.  After it had been hanging 
> around for years, I loaned it to a colleague, for him to try to get his 
> going.  But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other things, 
> retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much old computer 
> stuff.  The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but the college had 
> already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office.
> 
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Boot disk is easy if it's a Northstar.  There are enough of us who can help out 
with that.  Micropolis are also easy.  I can also help if it's a Helios. 

Cheers,
Corey 

Re: Unibus controller for MFM disks

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 3:33 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> I can only think of one, the AED WINC-08 RL02 system, but that used 8" drives
> Good luck finding one, and the matching interface card. I don't think Qualogy
> Emulex or Dilog ever made MFM for Unibus. MFM controllers were mainly a QBus
> market. I suppose some day I should make a list of all of the Unibus/Qbus disk
> and tape controller vendors I can think of.
>
> There is a project going on right now in support of the Y-Combinator
> Alto restoration to create a Diablo model 30 drive emulator.
> Given how many RK11's there are in the world, that might be an option
> once it's working. There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which
> seems to have stalled again.
>
> I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built
> some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his.

A plug-compatible Massbus disk/tape emulator would be a Good Thing;
there are things like pdp-10s that rely exclusively on Massbus and
rare finicky power-hungry beasts like RP06. I kinda heard that LCM
were working on something like that but don't know how far they got.
Setasi had a disk emulator system based on a PC with a Massbus-on-FPGA
card but they're rare and pretty unmaintainable too; I have one but
not got it working yet.

IBM channel-attached DASD would be another good one. It exists - the
FlexCub. I know LCM use those too - but the price is commercial and
way way up there. A hobbyist license for that would be helpful! I have
a System/3 pretty much ready to boot - but it never will unless I can
find or emulate the 3340 disks which are the only things it can use.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66?

[devin davison]

I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a
486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something.
Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not
hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power
on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge
pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare
keyboard and mouse too.

Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers.

I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not
interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a
machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty
of DOS machines here and did not bother.

I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit
on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for
grabs too.

I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a
spot on my desk and fire them up.

--Devin

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > I can read about using arsphenamine
> > to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
> > contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".
> 
> Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of us
> still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the debilitating
> mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

I treat syphilis, in case anyone on this list requires that.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley 

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[Ali]

 
> Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go
> through the roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.

I don't know about the price of syphilis but the price of treating syphilis
has gone through the roof. But I digress... :)

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[drlegendre .]

" I can read about using arsphenamine
to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience"."

Thanks for that, Chuck.. while it makes the point, it's still one of the
screwiest analogies ever.

Love it. Gotta pull that one out at the next appropriate social gathering.

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 9:52 PM, Ali  wrote:

>
> > Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go
> > through the roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.
>
> I don't know about the price of syphilis but the price of treating syphilis
> has gone through the roof. But I digress... :)
>
>
>
>

Re: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66?

[Paxton Hoag]

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison  wrote:

> I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a
> 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something.
> Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not
> hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power
> on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge
> pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare
> keyboard and mouse too.
>
> Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers.
>
> I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not
> interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a
> machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty
> of DOS machines here and did not bother.
>
> I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit
> on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for
> grabs too.
>
> I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a
> spot on my desk and fire them up.
>
> --Devin
>

I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer located?

Paxton

-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA

Re: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66?

[devin davison]

Located in Vero Beach Florida, 32967

Sorry, forgot to mention location

--Devin

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:43 PM,  wrote:

> Or Atlanta perhaps?
> Todd Killingsworth
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Paxton Hoag 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It
> has a
> >> 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something.
> >> Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do
> not
> >> hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to
> power
> >> on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a
> huge
> >> pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare
> >> keyboard and mouse too.
> >>
> >> Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers.
> >>
> >> I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just
> not
> >> interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a
> >> machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have
> plenty
> >> of DOS machines here and did not bother.
> >>
> >> I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can
> sit
> >> on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for
> >> grabs too.
> >>
> >> I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to
> make a
> >> spot on my desk and fire them up.
> >>
> >> --Devin
> >
> > I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer
> located?
> >
> > Paxton
> >
> > --
> > Paxton Hoag
> > Astoria, OR
> > USA
>

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Brad H]

SOL-20s have been all over the map.  Ive seen similar units diverge by as much 
as $500 for nothing obvious I can see.  The average for unknown, complete, 
decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras probably $1300?



Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: "Mark J. Blair"  
Date: 2016-10-15  11:56 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? 

I have an opportunity to make a "reasonable offer" on a fairly complete SOL-20 
system. It would include a floppy drive cabinet and some software, but no 
monitor. It's a "working when retired" system, so I assume that the keyboard 
has died of old age and some capacitors might have dried out; none of that 
bothers me, but it implies that it's probably not a turnkey system. I have to 
make the offer or not by tonight, based on when the owner is leaving on a road 
trip that will pass near me, with or without the system loaded up in his RV.

Now the problem is that I haven't been following SOL-20 prices, so I don't know 
what a reasonable offer might be. The only prices I'm aware of are the various 
buy-it-now prices I see on eBay, some or all of which I suspect are from 
sellers looking for top dollar and then some.

If any of y'all can help me figure out a reasonable price range for a 
complete-ish but not necessarily running SOL-20 system, I would appreciate that.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Corey Cohen]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:04, Brad H  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> SOL-20s have been all over the map.  Ive seen similar units diverge by as 
>> much as $500 for nothing obvious I can see.  The average for unknown, 
>> complete, decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras 
>> probably $1300?
> 
> Thanks for your data point! That's not as expensive as I was worried it might 
> be.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
> 

Keep in mind since it's not currently confirmed working that effects the price. 
 If there is no scratches or rust on the system it will be worth more can be a 
lot more, minimum 1000 to 1500 in non working condition.  Early Sol-20 were 
rust buckets both on the case and the chassis.  I usually can find non working 
rust bucket for about $500.   I can usually get them working on a few hours.   
A really good condition with manuals and confirmed working Sol-20 currently 
sell for more than 2k.   Monitors don't count and can be found cheaply.  Heck I 
used a $100 LCD screen mounted on the wall for the longest time with one so I 
wouldn't scratch the perfect top on one of. One.  

The disk drive can really affect value.  If it's a Northstar system, then maybe 
add 400 bucks the most.  If it's a Helios.  A working drive can be priceless if 
the drive is still the original Persci one.  Non-working Helios can be like a 
trip to vegas.  They have a glass voice coil which tend to damage if not 
shipped correctly and plastic eject gears that split.  I would pay about 1k to 
1500 for a non-working Helios including the two cards depending on the 
condition of the case.  I generally assume a non working drive as a core drive 
for parts and if the glass isn't broken and the gears aren't split it's a 
candidate for a complete overhaul including bearings and that takes time and 
skill.  I've been working on one on and off for about a year now, putting a few 
hours in every few weeks or so.  

I couldn't even venture to guess the price of a working Helios.  There are less 
of them around than fingers on my hand and toes on my feet.   

A few more things to note.  Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big deal.  
Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked.  And make sure you have the 
personality module included.  

Good luck,
Cheers,
Corey 

Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Mark J. Blair]

I have an opportunity to make a "reasonable offer" on a fairly complete SOL-20 
system. It would include a floppy drive cabinet and some software, but no 
monitor. It's a "working when retired" system, so I assume that the keyboard 
has died of old age and some capacitors might have dried out; none of that 
bothers me, but it implies that it's probably not a turnkey system. I have to 
make the offer or not by tonight, based on when the owner is leaving on a road 
trip that will pass near me, with or without the system loaded up in his RV.

Now the problem is that I haven't been following SOL-20 prices, so I don't know 
what a reasonable offer might be. The only prices I'm aware of are the various 
buy-it-now prices I see on eBay, some or all of which I suspect are from 
sellers looking for top dollar and then some.

If any of y'all can help me figure out a reasonable price range for a 
complete-ish but not necessarily running SOL-20 system, I would appreciate that.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: NWA auctions (GP-4, SEL 32)

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:33 AM, William Maddox wrote:

> This looks like a GP-4, though I am suspicious that parts of it have been 
> modernized.   The GP-4 had a drum memory.
> 
> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Genal-Precision-Systems-2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464723/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464723
> 
> Someone should grab the SEL machines:
> 
> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Simulator-avionics-cabinet/32464645/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464645
> 
> There are a few 3C cards in the pallets of parts, and a few can be seen in 
> the 7th photo here:
> 
> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464736/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464736
> 
> Computer Control Company machines (e.g. DDP-124) were widely used in 
> simulators in the mid/late 1960s, when many simulators for aircraft of that 
> vintage were built.
> The computer itself is nowhere in sight, however.  Probably, all that remains 
> are specialized simulator interfaces, with the PC in the last photo doing the 
> computing.  :(
> 
> --Bill
> 
> 

Did anyone on the list grab the GP-4? I just returned from the NWA center and 
while claiming my Documation reader I had a chance to look around the room (and 
there are LOTS of computer rooms there). That GP is an absolute beast, 3 rows 
of interconnected cabinets full of circuit cards and power supplies. The name 
plate says it was originally sold to Continental Airlines. The drum has been 
replaced with a solid state emulator and it looks like the core may have also 
been upgraded. What I also noticed were piles of books, binders, and file 
cabinets full of system documentation including original schematics and system 
diagrams. I sure hope those weren't sold as separate lots.

There also appeared to be more DEC related equipment than I recall on the 
auction site, or perhaps sold under ambiguous lot names. Any PDP buyer(s) 
should have a good look around that computer room for associated documents, 
PCBs, binders, etc. for the sold systems before the paperwork gets tossed.  -C 

Re: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation

[Al Kossow]

I may have scanned other versions, no time to look right now.

and.. people are STILL trying to find a good copy of the Sun Microsystems
68000 boot prom, as far as I know.

On 10/14/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote:

> the one above is the previous version to the manual I have.  According
> to the first page, the single volume Sun-1 System Reference Manual from
> July 1982 was replaced by two volumes the User Guide, which I have, and
> the Programmer's Reference Manual which I do not have.  The older
> manual is probably more useful but this one is expanded (according to
> revision page) to include 1/2" and 1/4" tape drives and Fujitsu disk
> drives.  I see that the CDC Lark operation is in here, the Sun-1 that
> I dealt with had a CDC Lark cartridge unit and I still have some of the
> old Lark cartridges and no possible way to read them.
> 

Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

[Tony Aiuto]

Yes. The 8 & 9 machines were ECL, the rest were TTL.  IIRC, those were the
32/87, 9780, PN9600.

David mentioned disks on the PN (Unix) series. Those were formatted with
multiple of 512 byte sectors. The RTM/MPX machines used 768 byte sectors,
which was super optimal for the disks they happened to ship with their
earliest machines, but then a right PITA for everyone who used the machines
for decades beyond that. It was not just the strange size, but I think the
minimal disk allocation unit was something like 16K, and you only got 8 or
16 chances to add new segments to that. You better know how big your file
would grow before you started writing.

It's all slowly leaking back into my brain. The early machines, were number
32/xx and ran RTM, their Real Time Monitor. The xx was, IIRC, 27, 75, 77,
87. Very much process control oriented. A terminal *could* be hooked up to
an editor task that could edit code and submit jobs, but then it could not
detach and let you interact with another program. The company I worked for
hacked up a task swapping capability on top of it so we could actually get
work done.  That was 1976 or so.

Around 1982?, they added an MMU and introduced MPX, the Mapped Programming
Executive. That was much more usable, but still with the problematic disk
layout. I think the numbering changed then to x7nn, where X was the overall
technology and nn was a size within that. I know there was an 8750, 8780,
9780, 6780, 2750, and 7750. Those were the MPX machines. The UTX (Unix)
machines replaced the 7 with a 0, giving David his PN9080 and PN6050.

For unrelated reasons, I have to clean my basement today. Who knows what I
will dig up.




On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:07 PM, ANDY HOLT  wrote:

>
>
> - Original Message -
> > From: "David Brownlee" 
> >
>
> > We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the
> > late 90's
> Ah, yes, "The Magic Roundabout" - was three 6040s and one 9080. I still
> possess the Gould nameplate from the 9000.
> They were the last machines we had that we though of as mainframes (even
> if many would call them minis - but I think the racks were wider than 19"
> so they clearly weren't minis!)
>
> There's some interest in the story of how this system came together:
> we did have a Honeywell dual 66/60 which was supplemented by the 9000 as
> a time-sharing system when we had had it 5 years.
> After two more years we calculated that we could buy and maintain the
> trio of 6000s for less than the maintenance cost for the three years
> that the Honeywell was due to remain and gain a noiceable increase in
> computing power (and a noticeable decrease in power consumption) by
> doing so … and actually managed to convince the bean counters of this.
>
> > (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a
> > whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I
> > cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they
> > would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour,
> > numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII)
>
> I also forget what those colour terminals were. The first Sun came along
> when it turned out that it was cheaper to buy it and an Ada* compiler than
> the Ada for the Honeywell.
> * Computer Science /insisted/ they needed an Ada compiler.
> They never used it - but the Sun was useful :-)
>
> > When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left
> > forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found
> to
> > have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all
> > over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine.
>
> Don't remember that - but certainly believable
>
> > Quite robust that ECL :)
> Um, I don't think the 6000s were ECL - think they were a reimplementation
> of
> the 9000 using cheaper technology - probably whatever was the current
> "state of the art" TTL (don't think CMOS had taken-over for speed yet)
>
> Thanks, Abs, for reminding me of those times.
>
> Andy
>

Re: LA36, LA120 prints

[Al Kossow]

scanned.. no time to post-process right now
If someone REALLY needs this, LMK

For the couple of people that have been to my new
office, there is a 3ft high 4ft long pile of paper
in front of the scanner right now that I haven't had
time to even look at.


On 10/14/16 10:21 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
> but they don't
> seem to have much on the LA36. 

Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

[ANDY HOLT]

- Original Message -
> From: "David Brownlee" 
>

> We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the
> late 90's 
Ah, yes, "The Magic Roundabout" - was three 6040s and one 9080. I still
possess the Gould nameplate from the 9000.
They were the last machines we had that we though of as mainframes (even
if many would call them minis - but I think the racks were wider than 19"
so they clearly weren't minis!)

There's some interest in the story of how this system came together:
we did have a Honeywell dual 66/60 which was supplemented by the 9000 as
a time-sharing system when we had had it 5 years. 
After two more years we calculated that we could buy and maintain the 
trio of 6000s for less than the maintenance cost for the three years 
that the Honeywell was due to remain and gain a noiceable increase in
computing power (and a noticeable decrease in power consumption) by 
doing so … and actually managed to convince the bean counters of this.

> (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a
> whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I
> cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they
> would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour,
> numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII)

I also forget what those colour terminals were. The first Sun came along
when it turned out that it was cheaper to buy it and an Ada* compiler than
the Ada for the Honeywell.
* Computer Science /insisted/ they needed an Ada compiler.
They never used it - but the Sun was useful :-)

> When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left
> forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found to
> have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all
> over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine.

Don't remember that - but certainly believable

> Quite robust that ECL :)
Um, I don't think the 6000s were ECL - think they were a reimplementation of
the 9000 using cheaper technology - probably whatever was the current 
"state of the art" TTL (don't think CMOS had taken-over for speed yet)

Thanks, Abs, for reminding me of those times.

Andy

RE: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

[Rick Bensene]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Aiuto
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 7:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions)

I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines.  The 32/77 was an original SEL 
design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time OS. TTL 
based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made slight hardware 
changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the PowerNode PN7000 and 
PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we took a few 77's and changed 
one board in the chassis to turn them into PowerNodes.

The instruction set was more RISC-y than CISC-y. The floating point was base 16 
exponent rather than base 2. Because of the way they did normalization, there 
were a lot of bit patterns which were impossible results. I made a lot of use 
of those to represent special values.

I'm glad it was saved.

Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and they are 
still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port.



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> I have been given an lot of SEL software and documentation, along with 
> a simulator Now, I need to get off my butt and put it all on line.
>
> Thank you for saving the system, Bob.
>
> On 10/13/16 8:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
> > On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote:
> >>> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is..
> >>> Wasn't Gould SEL?  maybe an SEL system?
> >>
> >> The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on 
> >> earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture.
> >>
> >> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the 
> >> time) floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in 
> >> tandem with the main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching 
> >> power available
> >>
> >> The machines were mainly intended for real-time control 
> >> applications (as used in the flight sim applications in the 
> >> auction)
> >>
> >> The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32.
> >>
> >> More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm
> >>
> >> Years ago, I had some experience with these machines.  They were 
> >> quite powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and 
> >> ran.
> >> Very robust design.
> >>
> >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands 
> >> of someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rick Bensene
> >> The Old Calculator Museum
> >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL
> system. It won't go to scrap.
> > No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, 
> > but
> after reading about it last night,
> > I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see...
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/14/2016 10:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:


> If my previous observations on the genesis of the list don't match
> reality, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected - in fact, I like what
> I've been hearing about the origins of the list. That said, the vast
> majority of list traffic seems to focus on minicomputers "and up"
> (or, and back as it were), and I assumed that it's always been this
> way.
> 
> As another member recently noted, much of what tumbles past me on
> this list is totally outside of my 'classic computer' world. Though,
> again, I'd have no trouble whatsoever geeking out - and fully - over
> some mini hardware, if that's the sort of thing I could possibly have
> room for in my home or my life.
> 
> This said, it's clear to see that most of the list traffic is well
> outside of the 8-bit / 16-bit micro era. And if the list is to
> survive over the long-term, then more of the micro kids like myself
> need to be brought deeper into the fold. Don't you think?

Well, I'll throw my own worthless opinion into the mix.

Classiccmp to me is mostly a DEC minicomputer list.  In fact, if it were
retitled as such, I don't think that many posts would be excluded.
Having spent my formative years in big iron, the DEC stuff is
minicomputer, although an exception might be made for the very high end,
such as the VAX 9000 machines--but IIRC, those aren't discussed here.

I've used (even as sysadmin) VAX systems and have even been offered one
free for the taking.  There's no nostalgia there for me, so I haven't
bothered.

Even Cray-Cyber offers only access to a Cyber 800 system, which is too
late for me.  Are there any IBM 7070s still in functioning order?  Got a
7090 to run FMS on?   How about a nice little 1620?

Pretty much all gone, mostly due to age and cost of operation.

But even if I could have a Univac 1107, complete with peripherals
running in my basement, I don't think I would.  I've moved on, but the
hardware hasn't.  Things that were wonderful to behold back then are
only mere curiosities today.  I'm not the same person I used to be back
then, thank heavens.   The Thomas Wolfe thing.

8-bit micro CPUs to me were a breakthrough in that real computer
ownership was within my means.  I recall the withering laugh when
showing my newly-assembled MITS 8800 to a co-worker:  "You paid $1000
for *that*?  It's just a toy!"  In retrospect, I probably would have had
more fun spending the kilobuck on fast women and booze.

In that sense of ownership, I don't really draw much of a distinction
between vintage 8-bit micros and modern PCs.  Yes, a modern PC can do a
lot more than a MITS box, but you'd expect that after 40-odd years.  Can
you get the same thrill that someone got in 1975 from an 8-bit system?
I doubt it.

There are still those who like to experiment with old vacuum tubes
(valves to you folks in the UK) building a one-bottle regenerative
receiver, complete with A and B batteries, but for most of us who have
been there, it's not the same.

I'm always interested in design documents and other paper that tells me
about the thought that went into the creation of a machine, but the
machine  itself, not so much.

So yes, I can see someone get out of the collecting hobby, yet still
retaining an interest in old iron.  I can read about using arsphenamine
to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".

--Chuck

Re: Unibus controller for MFM disks

[Al Kossow]

I can only think of one, the AED WINC-08 RL02 system, but that used 8" drives
Good luck finding one, and the matching interface card. I don't think Qualogy
Emulex or Dilog ever made MFM for Unibus. MFM controllers were mainly a QBus
market. I suppose some day I should make a list of all of the Unibus/Qbus disk
and tape controller vendors I can think of.

There is a project going on right now in support of the Y-Combinator
Alto restoration to create a Diablo model 30 drive emulator.
Given how many RK11's there are in the world, that might be an option
once it's working. There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which
seems to have stalled again.

I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built
some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his.


On 10/14/16 8:25 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
> I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412
> interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in
> need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an
> option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators.
> 
> -chuck
> 

DRAM for the 6085/1186

[Al Kossow]

FYI

www.ebay.com/itm/112167073659

This guy was the second listing he's put up. I suspect he has more.
I tried the two sets he put up the first time, and they work fine on the 6085.
They are hard enough to find at that price, I thought I'd let people know.
He also has the Fujitsu MB8266A nibble-mode 64k used on the video board still 
listed
at a really good price

www.ebay.com/itm/111235545807

Re: LA36, LA120 prints

[Richard Loken]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote:


scanned.. no time to post-process right now
If someone REALLY needs this, LMK


My read of this is that have all the Sun-1 and DECwriter II and III docs
that matter so I will pass on all this paper to somebody else without
thinking furter about scanning them.

As for the Data Printer Corporation docs, I never expected them to be a 
sought after item and I have one candidate so I will send them them there.


I have access to a lot of old Sun and DEC documentation, is there anything 
from those two sources that you are looking for?  (Aside from Sun proms 
which I do not have.)  I have until January 1 to find homes for a lot of 
this stuff before it stops being available to me and starts to be 
destroyed.


--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:04, Brad H  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> SOL-20s have been all over the map.  Ive seen similar units diverge by as 
> much as $500 for nothing obvious I can see.  The average for unknown, 
> complete, decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras 
> probably $1300?

Thanks for your data point! That's not as expensive as I was worried it might 
be.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/