Re: CF running out of steam
what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? For instance a company who bought the company who baught Macromedia because they where intersted in former Macromedia products like Flash, but not really in other stuff like CF. Funny... look what product is dying fastest for that acquisition. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there about how valuable marketing really is. Macromedia and Adobe marketed the hell out of Flash, and yet here we are. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355098 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Still don't understand why they dumped flash, I don't see a lot of flash websites, but a huge number of them have flash components, esp flash video. Regards Russ Michaels www.michaels.me.uk www.cfmldeveloper.com - Free CFML hosting for developers www.cfsearch.com - CF search engine On Mar 19, 2013 6:29 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? For instance a company who bought the company who baught Macromedia because they where intersted in former Macromedia products like Flash, but not really in other stuff like CF. Funny... look what product is dying fastest for that acquisition. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there about how valuable marketing really is. Macromedia and Adobe marketed the hell out of Flash, and yet here we are. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355099 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it the first time I had a look at it. I came from a video editing background and it was very similar with the use of the timeline. And it was extremely labor intensive, as is video production (especially at first when it was just an animation generator). So much so that I knew no one was going to pay enough money for the labor it required just to produce something flashy :o) for their site. I WANTED to use it, but just couldn't justify the cost of the software, the charges to a client, nor the time it took me to create something that wouldn't even run on all interfaces equally. I just had the realization, long before Adobe about it, that it was going to fail in the end. They should have put their time and effort into CF... -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:29 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? For instance a company who bought the company who baught Macromedia because they where intersted in former Macromedia products like Flash, but not really in other stuff like CF. Funny... look what product is dying fastest for that acquisition. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there about how valuable marketing really is. Macromedia and Adobe marketed the hell out of Flash, and yet here we are. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355100 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it the first time I had a look at it. I came from a video editing background and it was very similar with the use of the timeline. And it was extremely labor intensive, as is video production (especially at first when it was just an animation generator). So much so that I knew no one was going to pay enough money for the labor it required just to produce something flashy :o) for their site. I WANTED to use it, but just couldn't justify the cost of the software, the charges to a client, nor the time it took me to create something that wouldn't even run on all interfaces equally. I just had the realization, long before Adobe about it, that it was going to fail in the end. They should have put their time and effort into CF... You do realize, though, that Flash WAS a successful product for many, many years, and lots of people did, in fact, pay enough money for the labor to create things that couldn't be created in HTML? Right? I mean, it was around for fifteen years. I know lots of people who worked full-time doing Flash and Flex work. Lots of people could and did justify the purchase of Flash development tools. You also realize the reasons Flash didn't make it have nothing to do with any of the items you stated, right? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355101 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it the first time I had a look at it. Wow, seriously? I think Dave said it best. On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it the first time I had a look at it. I came from a video editing background and it was very similar with the use of the timeline. And it was extremely labor intensive, as is video production (especially at first when it was just an animation generator). So much so that I knew no one was going to pay enough money for the labor it required just to produce something flashy :o) for their site. I WANTED to use it, but just couldn't justify the cost of the software, the charges to a client, nor the time it took me to create something that wouldn't even run on all interfaces equally. I just had the realization, long before Adobe about it, that it was going to fail in the end. They should have put their time and effort into CF... You do realize, though, that Flash WAS a successful product for many, many years, and lots of people did, in fact, pay enough money for the labor to create things that couldn't be created in HTML? Right? I mean, it was around for fifteen years. I know lots of people who worked full-time doing Flash and Flex work. Lots of people could and did justify the purchase of Flash development tools. You also realize the reasons Flash didn't make it have nothing to do with any of the items you stated, right? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355103 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it the first time I had a look at it. Wow, seriously? I think Dave said it best. Yeah, much as I personally can't stand Flash (*), it was definitely a very successful product. The client app had more market penetration than probably any other internet-based product (97% of browsers had it installed, or something?), and that it was around for 15-odd years in the IT industry is really a long time for an application. (*) I have nothing against Flash as a technology: it has some merit... just 99% of what people have done with it is a pointless waste of time, and simultaneously being bloody annoying cluttering up my browser. Thank god for Flashblock (because, like, God did that). -- Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355104 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Adam Cameron adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote: (*) I have nothing against Flash as a technology: it has some merit... just 99% of what people have done with it is a pointless waste of time, and simultaneously being bloody annoying cluttering up my browser. Thank god for Flashblock (because, like, God did that). My problem with this is the assumption that Flash enabled bad crap. People build plenty of bad things in plain ole HTML. Flash could go away 100% this second and tomorrow you will see Skip Intros in HTML sites. (In fact, I'm already seeing that.) For a long time Flash enabled things that HTML had no hope of doing. That isn't entirely the case now (although there are still things Flash handles a heck of lot better) though. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355105 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Yeah, much as I personally can't stand Flash (*), it was definitely a very successful product. The client app had more market penetration than probably any other internet-based product (97% of browsers had it installed, or something?), and that it was around for 15-odd years in the IT industry is really a long time for an application. I'm not much for investing, but I'm inclined to ask Rick which products are obvious losers just so I can invest in them. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355106 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Why is everyone talking about Flash in the past tense? Looks like it's still available for sale from Adobe to me: http://www.adobe.com/products/flash.html Also: - Flash is used by Google hangouts - Flash is used by YouTube - Flash is used by Hulu Hardly seems dead... -- Josh On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Yeah, much as I personally can't stand Flash (*), it was definitely a very successful product. The client app had more market penetration than probably any other internet-based product (97% of browsers had it installed, or something?), and that it was around for 15-odd years in the IT industry is really a long time for an application. I'm not much for investing, but I'm inclined to ask Rick which products are obvious losers just so I can invest in them. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355107 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote: I could have saved them a TON of trouble by letting them know that Flash wasn't going to make it. Given a long enough timeline, this is true for every technology ever created - and for humans too for that matter. Sorta like declaring I told you so! I knew he was gonna die all along! about someone after they lived a long fruitful life. -Cameron ... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355108 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
(*) I have nothing against Flash as a technology: it has some merit... just 99% of what people have done with it is a pointless waste of time, and simultaneously being bloody annoying cluttering up my browser. Thank god for Flashblock (because, like, God did that). My problem with this is the assumption that Flash enabled bad crap. People build plenty of bad things in plain ole HTML. Flash could go away 100% My problem with what *you* say, Ray, is your assumptions about my motivations for saying what I did, and then continuing from there to make assumptions about what conclusions I draw from this. Which is a bit - uncharacteristically - rubbish of you. Especially as the conclusions you drew for me were pretty facile. You're stating the bleeding obvious to suggest that anyone is capable of producing crap via any mechanism, and Flash is no exception here. That said, I think Flash was/is far more an enabler of crap than raw HTML is. This is perhaps borne-out as not simply being a vagary of my thoughts on the matter, but the almost ubiquity of people thinking what's produced in Flash is *shit*, and the variety of options available to get rid of it from out screens. Another consideration here is that even with all Flash blocked, I can readily use almost all websites, so this pretty much demonstrates what people are doing with Flash is not actually... well... useful. It's fluff around the edges. People do crap with HTML and JS as well, and I guess this will be on the rise with the increased capabilities of both technologies (and browsers running them). However I've never heard of there being a market for a mark-up blocker like there is for Flash. It's the fault of the people producing the content rather than Flash itself, sure. I suspect this is because Flash came up in the designer community, and.. err... people doing design don't usually have much of a clue about UX (obviously there are exceptions, but they are *exceptions*), and accordingly we just get the designer's creativity declaring its presence unnecessarily on the screen, and at odds with what the user actually wants to achieve on the web page / site. Or just animated bloody adverts distracting from the actual purpose and intended experience of the page the ad is on. I think this describes about 95% of Flash that I have seen. Fortunately a lot of people seem to be understanding UX a bit better these days, so I think once Flash goes the way of the dodo, the experience it gave us will probably largely disappear too. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. Flex had potential to fix the problems Flash designers had brought to the technology, but it never took off for what I see as being a few reasons: 1) Macromedia screwed it almost entirely with the pricing of v1.0. By the time v2.0 came out, most of the damage to its perception was done; 2) One of the versions wasn't terribly backwards compat. I think it was v2.0? Not so much from a library / language / syntax POV, but from the POV of how things were supposed to be done; 3) it was too much of a developer conceit... it perhaps went too far away from the original Flash being firmly in the designer space, to Flex being too much in the developer space. Accordingly most of the Flex solutions I saw looked very default, because the developer was always more interested in the code than the design; 4) The standard UI implementation was too different from Windows (and I presume Mac), so whilst one could make a shiny-looking Flex form, most of the Windows short-cuts and behaviours didn't work (a good example of this is the old Flex UI for the CF bug tracker). This just makes them annoying to use. 5) I think the addition of needing to support Flex caused the Flash Player's rot to set in, with bloat and bugs all over the place. This could be coincidental timing though, and this is just my gut feel. I think Flex had a chance to make Flash useful, but it just didn't pan out. I think it also filled a client-side niche back in the days before very powerful and well-thought-out JS frameworks, however they're here now, so makes Flex a helluva lot less relevant than it could have been (but never really was). There. That's perhaps better than letting you articulate my position the basis thereof, yes? Cheers. -- Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355109 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Adam Cameron adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote: My problem with what *you* say, Ray, is your assumptions about my motivations for saying what I did, and then continuing from there to make assumptions about what conclusions I draw from this. Which is a bit - uncharacteristically - rubbish of you. Especially as the conclusions you drew for me were pretty facile. Eh? Well, in your further description below I think you just further affirmed what I thought of your position, which I still disagree with! ;) That said, I think Flash was/is far more an enabler of crap than raw HTML is. This is perhaps borne-out as not simply being a vagary of my thoughts It is only more an enabler because it can do more. For example, if browsers did not support animated gifs, we wouldn't have them. But because they have, they are 'enabled' them. Flash can do more, therefore has the power to annoy more. HTML5 is the exact same. on the matter, but the almost ubiquity of people thinking what's produced in Flash is *shit*, and the variety of options available to get rid of it from out screens. Another consideration here is that even with all Flash blocked, I can readily use almost all websites, so this pretty much demonstrates what people are doing with Flash is not actually... well... useful. It's fluff around the edges. Dude, if you don't think we won't see a giant crap load of fluff with just pure HTML than you are - respectfully - crazy. Folks are just going to change their delivery mechanism. People do crap with HTML and JS as well, and I guess this will be on the rise with the increased capabilities of both technologies (and browsers running them). However I've never heard of there being a market for a mark-up blocker like there is for Flash. Because you can't! Heck, at least with Flash you could block it if you didn't like it. You can't block an animated HTML banner ad. Folks are going to be *begging* for a return of the Flash banner ad probably. ;) It's the fault of the people producing the content rather than Flash itself, sure. I suspect this is because Flash came up in the designer community, and.. err... people doing design don't usually have much of a clue about UX (obviously there are exceptions, but they are *exceptions*), and accordingly we just get the designer's creativity declaring its presence unnecessarily on the screen, and at odds with what the user actually wants to achieve on the web page / site. And all that's going to change is the delivery mechanism. You've got a new way to be forced fed crap now. Awesome. ;) Fortunately a lot of people seem to be understanding UX a bit better these days, so I think once Flash goes the way of the dodo, the experience it gave us will probably largely disappear too. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. I will say that UX, in general, is more thought of now then it was then. I wouldn't put the blame on Flash for that. I just think as a whole, we (the web community) are more considerate of UX now than we were back in 1990. Just like the rise of mobile has made us more considerate of mobile UX, performance, etc. There. That's perhaps better than letting you articulate my position the basis thereof, yes? Still wrong. :p ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355112 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
I'll rejoin the fray tomorrow. I had softball practice tonight and didn't have time to continue our enlightening discussion... Oh, and Dave, I'll get to those tech winner and losers tomorrow. :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:raymondcam...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 9:33 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Adam Cameron adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote: My problem with what *you* say, Ray, is your assumptions about my motivations for saying what I did, and then continuing from there to make assumptions about what conclusions I draw from this. Which is a bit - uncharacteristically - rubbish of you. Especially as the conclusions you drew for me were pretty facile. Eh? Well, in your further description below I think you just further affirmed what I thought of your position, which I still disagree with! ;) That said, I think Flash was/is far more an enabler of crap than raw HTML is. This is perhaps borne-out as not simply being a vagary of my thoughts It is only more an enabler because it can do more. For example, if browsers did not support animated gifs, we wouldn't have them. But because they have, they are 'enabled' them. Flash can do more, therefore has the power to annoy more. HTML5 is the exact same. on the matter, but the almost ubiquity of people thinking what's produced in Flash is *shit*, and the variety of options available to get rid of it from out screens. Another consideration here is that even with all Flash blocked, I can readily use almost all websites, so this pretty much demonstrates what people are doing with Flash is not actually... well... useful. It's fluff around the edges. Dude, if you don't think we won't see a giant crap load of fluff with just pure HTML than you are - respectfully - crazy. Folks are just going to change their delivery mechanism. People do crap with HTML and JS as well, and I guess this will be on the rise with the increased capabilities of both technologies (and browsers running them). However I've never heard of there being a market for a mark-up blocker like there is for Flash. Because you can't! Heck, at least with Flash you could block it if you didn't like it. You can't block an animated HTML banner ad. Folks are going to be *begging* for a return of the Flash banner ad probably. ;) It's the fault of the people producing the content rather than Flash itself, sure. I suspect this is because Flash came up in the designer community, and.. err... people doing design don't usually have much of a clue about UX (obviously there are exceptions, but they are *exceptions*), and accordingly we just get the designer's creativity declaring its presence unnecessarily on the screen, and at odds with what the user actually wants to achieve on the web page / site. And all that's going to change is the delivery mechanism. You've got a new way to be forced fed crap now. Awesome. ;) Fortunately a lot of people seem to be understanding UX a bit better these days, so I think once Flash goes the way of the dodo, the experience it gave us will probably largely disappear too. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. I will say that UX, in general, is more thought of now then it was then. I wouldn't put the blame on Flash for that. I just think as a whole, we (the web community) are more considerate of UX now than we were back in 1990. Just like the rise of mobile has made us more considerate of mobile UX, performance, etc. There. That's perhaps better than letting you articulate my position the basis thereof, yes? Still wrong. :p ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355113 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
I've been using CF for a long time and will be using it until I retire, because I build things people use and they don't particularly care what the technology is behind those things they use. HOWEVER, that is no excuse for Adobe being SO VERY SLACK at promoting their product, providing tutorials for new users to use to get to know CF, providing conferences, etc. Yes, CF *may* still be profitable for Adobe, but it won't take too many more years before that will change as people like myself decide to migrate to Blue Dragon and cut off yet one more customer from Adobe. Too many of those decisions and even hosts will decide CF is not worth providing. I like CF and hope to retire before I have to learn anything else. (I'd rather play softball with my extra time than learn PHP) But, as long as Adobe keeps CF on the market, they should support it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. The only businesses I know that have a product on the market, yet don't market in every way and to the fullest extent possible, are those who don't understand marketing in today's media, or those who are just milking the cow without feeding it to get whatever money they can for the milk with no more investment in maintaining a healthy thriving cow. They're just willing to get what they can on their way out of the business and let the cow survive on its own as long as it can. I'm not sure, after a decade of watching Adobe, if they're just lazy, ignorant, or going out of business with CF. Any of the above scenarios fits their long-time approach to marketing CF. And I've never heard one rational defense of Adobe and its handling of CF that excuses Adobe lack of attention to CF, from documentation to marketing. (And understand, that I'm a freelancer, and my business success has never once depended on how well Adobe has marketed their product, so I'm like an outsider looking in at those dependent upon Adobe making a name for CF so those of you who work for others can get hired based on the reputation of CF, which ONLY Adobe can create...) Rick -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:p...@sustainablegis.com] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 12:47 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam On 3/18/2013 10:05 AM, Jenny Gavin-Wear wrote: I take all of your points on board, but it is still frustrating to be trying to sell a product that the manufacturer does not seem particularly interested in selling itself - let alone the business model for the product being wrong in the first place. at face value, kind of an absurd statement. what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? i *know* the cf team is trying cf is still profitable to adobe. but when its not they'll likely drop it i don't find that very worrying. adobe has already dropped what i thought was a pretty good product (flex). but they dropped it in a responsible fashion (into apache's lap, where its ticking along quite nicely--the commit stream people coming out of the woodwork to donate stuff to it makes me feel all warm fuzzy). people have been bemoaning cf's demise for a decade yet its still here. if its around for another decade w/adobe fine, if not, that's fine too. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355068 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
Oh, and Paul, if what I've witnessed of Adobe's efforts at building a rep for Adobe since they bought it from Macromedia is trying, then they will ultimate be a losing team. If the softball players that I coach put so little effort into they're work at becoming more successful on the field, they'd be kicked off the team for lack of commitment to success. Just as I'd already have fired the Adobe marketing team. No excuses... Rick -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:p...@sustainablegis.com] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 12:47 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam On 3/18/2013 10:05 AM, Jenny Gavin-Wear wrote: I take all of your points on board, but it is still frustrating to be trying to sell a product that the manufacturer does not seem particularly interested in selling itself - let alone the business model for the product being wrong in the first place. at face value, kind of an absurd statement. what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? i *know* the cf team is trying cf is still profitable to adobe. but when its not they'll likely drop it i don't find that very worrying. adobe has already dropped what i thought was a pretty good product (flex). but they dropped it in a responsible fashion (into apache's lap, where its ticking along quite nicely--the commit stream people coming out of the woodwork to donate stuff to it makes me feel all warm fuzzy). people have been bemoaning cf's demise for a decade yet its still here. if its around for another decade w/adobe fine, if not, that's fine too. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355069 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
FWIW, there have been several competitors to CFML that have come out over the years, but they never really became popular, I bet you have not even heard of most of them, they certainly never get mentioned anywhere and most of them have already died, so it shows that CFML isn't doing too bad when you compare it to those. A couple that come to mind are iHTML Lasso ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355071 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? For instance a company who bought the company who baught Macromedia because they where intersted in former Macromedia products like Flash, but not really in other stuff like CF. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355076 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: A couple that come to mind are iHTML Oh man that was an interesting one. It replaced ColdFusion (Cold Fusion at the time) as the default bundled app server that came with OReilly's Website Pro. I seem to remember things got nasty with the iHTML creator(s) back in the day on one of the lists. Looks like there is still a website up for it: http://www.ihtml.com/ 2.0 was released in 1996. Today you can sign up on their website to be notified when version 2.1 comes out. Nice. I wonder if it's really still around or just AZW (another zombie website). -Cameron ... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355077 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
You nailed the reason for the demise of those products on the head... you have not even heard of most of them... Speaks to poor marketing. -Original Message- From: Russ Michaels [mailto:r...@michaels.me.uk] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:19 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam FWIW, there have been several competitors to CFML that have come out over the years, but they never really became popular, I bet you have not even heard of most of them, they certainly never get mentioned anywhere and most of them have already died, so it shows that CFML isn't doing too bad when you compare it to those. A couple that come to mind are iHTML Lasso ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355078 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
Funny... look what product is dying fastest for that acquisition. -Original Message- From: Claude Schnéegans schneeg...@internetique.com [mailto:=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claude_Schn=E9egans schneegans@interneti=71?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ue.com=3E?=] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:30 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? For instance a company who bought the company who baught Macromedia because they where intersted in former Macromedia products like Flash, but not really in other stuff like CF. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355079 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
For some time now I have thought a rebranding would be rather beneficial. A lot of places I work at the very name Coldfusion seems to be the biggest issue. It definitely is not the cost of the software being an issue and they all buy the Enterprise version because of Oracle. It is much more to do with them having a perception that Coldfusion is an old language. As if it never really has seen much changes over the years. But mention ASP.NETto those same people and they never seem to relate it one bit to Classic ASP. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Robert Harrison rob...@austin-williams.com wrote: My personal opinion is that Adobe needs to rebrand it. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355086 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
As someone who has had to make IT purchasing decisions for several large corporations and government agencies over the years, I only hope Abobe never mimics Oracle's marketing strategy. Those folks are sharks, relentless to the point where I banned them from the office at one company. On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Aaron Rouse aaron.ro...@gmail.com wrote: For some time now I have thought a rebranding would be rather beneficial. A lot of places I work at the very name Coldfusion seems to be the biggest issue. It definitely is not the cost of the software being an issue and they all buy the Enterprise version because of Oracle. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355087 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
It's better than dead. Great marketing slogan! Have you sent it to Adobe? Lol -Original Message- From: Russ Michaels [mailto:r...@michaels.me.uk] Sent: 18 March 2013 14:19 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam FWIW, there have been several competitors to CFML that have come out over the years, but they never really became popular, I bet you have not even heard of most of them, they certainly never get mentioned anywhere and most of them have already died, so it shows that CFML isn't doing too bad when you compare it to those. A couple that come to mind are iHTML Lasso ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355089 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
Try IBM, or Olivetti . and most others? -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: 18 March 2013 20:32 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam As someone who has had to make IT purchasing decisions for several large corporations and government agencies over the years, I only hope Abobe never mimics Oracle's marketing strategy. Those folks are sharks, relentless to the point where I banned them from the office at one company. On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Aaron Rouse aaron.ro...@gmail.com wrote: For some time now I have thought a rebranding would be rather beneficial. A lot of places I work at the very name Coldfusion seems to be the biggest issue. It definitely is not the cost of the software being an issue and they all buy the Enterprise version because of Oracle. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355090 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Oh, I've dealt with all of them over the years. Oracle is the worst. Akamai is second. I was dealing with one of their staff as a consultant representing my client, and she actually had the temerity to go behind my back directly to the client, which ultimately cost her the deal, because the client was more ethical than she was and called me promptly to let me know what she was doing. On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Jenny Gavin-Wear jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk wrote: Try IBM, or Olivetti . and most others? -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: 18 March 2013 20:32 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam As someone who has had to make IT purchasing decisions for several large corporations and government agencies over the years, I only hope Abobe never mimics Oracle's marketing strategy. Those folks are sharks, relentless to the point where I banned them from the office at one company. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355091 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
That's what Olivetti did to me. Can't mention the clients name, but very well known, and for a 7 figure sum. I went to meet my contact and as I strolled down the corridor I was shocked to see my Olivetti dealership rep. coming towards me. The Olivetti guy was supposed to be supporting our dealership to win the tender, instead of which they tendered directly as a manufacture. Would have been nice to know as I wasted six month on it. Anyhoo .. way OT ... -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: 18 March 2013 21:12 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam Oh, I've dealt with all of them over the years. Oracle is the worst. Akamai is second. I was dealing with one of their staff as a consultant representing my client, and she actually had the temerity to go behind my back directly to the client, which ultimately cost her the deal, because the client was more ethical than she was and called me promptly to let me know what she was doing. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 9824 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355094 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
So CF is a great for getting into development for newbies, but expect to pay an enterprise level price. And if you are an enterprise, then you'll probably using something else anyway because you won't really need a newbie product. I recognise I'm not at the level on CF that many of you are here, but I have been able to develop quite nice eCommerce and CMS applications. What I don't like so much is that all I need, pretty much, is about 50% of what CF can do, having bought into a get started easily product, yet I'm still stuffed with enterprise level prices. IMO, CF has failed to identify where it actually sits in the market and to offer a range of functionalities and price tag that match. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 15 March 2013 14:27 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can not quite. make sure you're sitting down not drinking anything, then check the price of an arcGIS server license (inside the US, prices outside the US might make your head explode). plus you need at least one desktop seat (about the same cost as enterprise cf) just to manage your arcGIS servers. in large enterprise projects that make use of that kind of server platform, cf's relatively cheap a very nice fit especially where you have to dip into java libs to get stuff done, run off reports, etc. Yeah, my comparison was aimed at general-purpose server-side programming environments, not stuff like arcGIS. And CF is definitely cheap for enterprise software - and that might actually be a problem in the enterprise, as people in the enterprise often equate cost with value. (There's no other explanation I have for the continued success of Oracle.) If you compare CF to ASP.NET, or to common J2EE environments, or to PHP, CF is easier to use, but not so much easier that everyone's going to switch to it from those other things. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355043 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
Hi Ray, I can see that to a developer that Adobe page looks incredibly sexy. The problem being that it is not always (usually not?) the developers who hold the purse strings. Many times in this list over the last few years I have seen threads from developers asking for help in selling CF to customers or their management. Why the hell isn't Adobe doing this for them already?? Jenny -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:raymondcam...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 March 2013 21:58 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam Oh I think the home page is great. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html If you meant the _Adobe_ home page, I think it is great too, but I'm probably biased. ;) I can't see many coders going to adobe.com looking for random development languages. I think the audience is totally different. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355044 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
+1 -Original Message- From: Jenny Gavin-Wear [mailto:jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:06 AM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: CF running out of steam So CF is a great for getting into development for newbies, but expect to pay an enterprise level price. And if you are an enterprise, then you'll probably using something else anyway because you won't really need a newbie product. I recognise I'm not at the level on CF that many of you are here, but I have been able to develop quite nice eCommerce and CMS applications. What I don't like so much is that all I need, pretty much, is about 50% of what CF can do, having bought into a get started easily product, yet I'm still stuffed with enterprise level prices. IMO, CF has failed to identify where it actually sits in the market and to offer a range of functionalities and price tag that match. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: 15 March 2013 14:27 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can not quite. make sure you're sitting down not drinking anything, then check the price of an arcGIS server license (inside the US, prices outside the US might make your head explode). plus you need at least one desktop seat (about the same cost as enterprise cf) just to manage your arcGIS servers. in large enterprise projects that make use of that kind of server platform, cf's relatively cheap a very nice fit especially where you have to dip into java libs to get stuff done, run off reports, etc. Yeah, my comparison was aimed at general-purpose server-side programming environments, not stuff like arcGIS. And CF is definitely cheap for enterprise software - and that might actually be a problem in the enterprise, as people in the enterprise often equate cost with value. (There's no other explanation I have for the continued success of Oracle.) If you compare CF to ASP.NET, or to common J2EE environments, or to PHP, CF is easier to use, but not so much easier that everyone's going to switch to it from those other things. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355045 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
+1 Adobe Marketing is the failure... I see almost nothing on that front. I receive email newsletters constantly from Microsoft Evangelists who tout the conferences, tutorials, and benefits of Microsoft's offering. I rarely (never these days) receive ANYTHING from Adobe that discusses any of the above from an Adobe perspective. Adobe has content and human resources to be far more of push organization that it is. They seem to miss the fundamental perspective that I preach to my clients all the time. Push your benefits and products to current and prospective clients. Don't sit back and wait for them to come to you. There are *ALWAYS* others waiting to fill that void that's created and take the business which could be yours if they simply are significantly aware of what you offer and its benefits. Adobe fails at the most fundamental marketing strategy: Developing Top-of-mind awareness. And let's face it... 1) When Microsoft talks, people listen. 2) When Adobe talks, people listen. 3) When developers talk, people don't listen. And the fact is... Microsoft talks... Microsoft developers don't have to. Adobe doesn't talk... Adobe developers have to do the talking. See point three above. Rick -Original Message- From: Jenny Gavin-Wear [mailto:jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:12 AM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: CF running out of steam Hi Ray, I can see that to a developer that Adobe page looks incredibly sexy. The problem being that it is not always (usually not?) the developers who hold the purse strings. Many times in this list over the last few years I have seen threads from developers asking for help in selling CF to customers or their management. Why the hell isn't Adobe doing this for them already?? Jenny -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:raymondcam...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 March 2013 21:58 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam Oh I think the home page is great. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html If you meant the _Adobe_ home page, I think it is great too, but I'm probably biased. ;) I can't see many coders going to adobe.com looking for random development languages. I think the audience is totally different. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355046 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
As fun as a discussion like this is, I would caution people to avoid basing your career off of one product or system. No matter who you work for, you are a small business with one employee. Make decisions about your capabilities with that in mind. Be objective about decisions that are out of your control. You should have at least one plan B. Never stop learning new things inside and outside of programming. I remember the discussion when CF changed from very low cost to an enterprise price (V3-V4?). I gave it up and went with ASP since it was free. The same discussions about price were happening back then. I don't know the answer, but CF has had a lot of resilience. (I ended up back in CF once I started using corporate servers.) The main thing anyone can do is be active in the CF community, but be realistic. Nothing lasts forever. What would realistically happen to CF developers if Adobe canned ColdFusion? Most enterprises that use it would keep it running for a while and employ people to rewrite applications eventually. I don't know how long Adobe will keep ColdFusion, but I assume for some time in the future. Don't let something out of your control define your future (or at least hedge your bets.) The development landscape changes every few years. You have time to deal with it if you stay informed on trends. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Google+: https://plus.google.com/117357905892731200369 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355047 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
+1 ;) -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: 17 March 2013 14:48 To: cf-talk Subject: RE: CF running out of steam +1 Adobe Marketing is the failure... I see almost nothing on that front. I receive email newsletters constantly from Microsoft Evangelists who tout the conferences, tutorials, and benefits of Microsoft's offering. I rarely (never these days) receive ANYTHING from Adobe that discusses any of the above from an Adobe perspective. Adobe has content and human resources to be far more of push organization that it is. They seem to miss the fundamental perspective that I preach to my clients all the time. Push your benefits and products to current and prospective clients. Don't sit back and wait for them to come to you. There are *ALWAYS* others waiting to fill that void that's created and take the business which could be yours if they simply are significantly aware of what you offer and its benefits. Adobe fails at the most fundamental marketing strategy: Developing Top-of-mind awareness. And let's face it... 1) When Microsoft talks, people listen. 2) When Adobe talks, people listen. 3) When developers talk, people don't listen. And the fact is... Microsoft talks... Microsoft developers don't have to. Adobe doesn't talk... Adobe developers have to do the talking. See point three above. Rick -Original Message- From: Jenny Gavin-Wear [mailto:jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:12 AM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: CF running out of steam Hi Ray, I can see that to a developer that Adobe page looks incredibly sexy. The problem being that it is not always (usually not?) the developers who hold the purse strings. Many times in this list over the last few years I have seen threads from developers asking for help in selling CF to customers or their management. Why the hell isn't Adobe doing this for them already?? Jenny -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:raymondcam...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 March 2013 21:58 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam Oh I think the home page is great. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html If you meant the _Adobe_ home page, I think it is great too, but I'm probably biased. ;) I can't see many coders going to adobe.com looking for random development languages. I think the audience is totally different. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355057 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
Hi Roger, I take all of your points on board, but it is still frustrating to be trying to sell a product that the manufacturer does not seem particularly interested in selling itself - let alone the business model for the product being wrong in the first place. Jenny -Original Message- From: Roger Austin [mailto:raust...@nc.rr.com] Sent: 17 March 2013 15:37 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam As fun as a discussion like this is, I would caution people to avoid basing your career off of one product or system. No matter who you work for, you are a small business with one employee. Make decisions about your capabilities with that in mind. Be objective about decisions that are out of your control. You should have at least one plan B. Never stop learning new things inside and outside of programming. I remember the discussion when CF changed from very low cost to an enterprise price (V3-V4?). I gave it up and went with ASP since it was free. The same discussions about price were happening back then. I don't know the answer, but CF has had a lot of resilience. (I ended up back in CF once I started using corporate servers.) The main thing anyone can do is be active in the CF community, but be realistic. Nothing lasts forever. What would realistically happen to CF developers if Adobe canned ColdFusion? Most enterprises that use it would keep it running for a while and employ people to rewrite applications eventually. I don't know how long Adobe will keep ColdFusion, but I assume for some time in the future. Don't let something out of your control define your future (or at least hedge your bets.) The development landscape changes every few years. You have time to deal with it if you stay informed on trends. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Google+: https://plus.google.com/117357905892731200369 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355058 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On 3/18/2013 10:05 AM, Jenny Gavin-Wear wrote: I take all of your points on board, but it is still frustrating to be trying to sell a product that the manufacturer does not seem particularly interested in selling itself - let alone the business model for the product being wrong in the first place. at face value, kind of an absurd statement. what company in the business of selling stuff, isn't interested in selling stuff? i *know* the cf team is trying cf is still profitable to adobe. but when its not they'll likely drop it i don't find that very worrying. adobe has already dropped what i thought was a pretty good product (flex). but they dropped it in a responsible fashion (into apache's lap, where its ticking along quite nicely--the commit stream people coming out of the woodwork to donate stuff to it makes me feel all warm fuzzy). people have been bemoaning cf's demise for a decade yet its still here. if its around for another decade w/adobe fine, if not, that's fine too. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355061 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can not quite. make sure you're sitting down not drinking anything, then check the price of an arcGIS server license (inside the US, prices outside the US might make your head explode). plus you need at least one desktop seat (about the same cost as enterprise cf) just to manage your arcGIS servers. in large enterprise projects that make use of that kind of server platform, cf's relatively cheap a very nice fit especially where you have to dip into java libs to get stuff done, run off reports, etc. Yeah, my comparison was aimed at general-purpose server-side programming environments, not stuff like arcGIS. And CF is definitely cheap for enterprise software - and that might actually be a problem in the enterprise, as people in the enterprise often equate cost with value. (There's no other explanation I have for the continued success of Oracle.) If you compare CF to ASP.NET, or to common J2EE environments, or to PHP, CF is easier to use, but not so much easier that everyone's going to switch to it from those other things. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355023 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Probably not 100% scientific, but worth a look: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=ColdFusion%2C+groovy%2C+scala%2C+clojure%2C+node.jsl= Supposedly there's more hirings in CF than node.js, Scala, and Clojure. Groovy only recently took eclipsed CF. Now obviously there's the trend for CF is going down, and the other cool languages are going up. Still, I think a little perspective can be a reality check. You might not be developing CF in 10 or 20 years, but if your skills are good, I think there's still a few more years left to it. Billy Cravens bdcrav...@gmail.com On Mar 15, 2013, at 9:27 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can not quite. make sure you're sitting down not drinking anything, then check the price of an arcGIS server license (inside the US, prices outside the US might make your head explode). plus you need at least one desktop seat (about the same cost as enterprise cf) just to manage your arcGIS servers. in large enterprise projects that make use of that kind of server platform, cf's relatively cheap a very nice fit especially where you have to dip into java libs to get stuff done, run off reports, etc. Yeah, my comparison was aimed at general-purpose server-side programming environments, not stuff like arcGIS. And CF is definitely cheap for enterprise software - and that might actually be a problem in the enterprise, as people in the enterprise often equate cost with value. (There's no other explanation I have for the continued success of Oracle.) If you compare CF to ASP.NET, or to common J2EE environments, or to PHP, CF is easier to use, but not so much easier that everyone's going to switch to it from those other things. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355025 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I don't think there's all that much room for innovation in server-side programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. This is really what's happening here. Nothing to do with ColdFusion specifically. Every product has a natural cycle of evolution progressing into commoditization. This is where CF is now. This cannot be fixed by Adobe or anyone. It just *is*. Adobe will continue charging for it, and continue developing it, for as long as they are making money off it as a product. It's a complete delusion to believe that the former excitement around CF during it's glory years can be recreated. It's a good banana among a boatload of other perfectly good bananas being traded on an imaginary software commodity exchange. -Cameron -- Cameron Childress -- p: 678.637.5072 im: cameroncf facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf | twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc | google+ https://profiles.google.com/u/0/117829379451708140985 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355013 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Maureen wrote: I moved 77 sites from Abode CF If CF is dying, I wouldn't think that an engine using CFML is going to be flourishing in its stead. -- --m@Robertson-- Janitor, The Robertson Team mysecretbase.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355014 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
They can certainly consider pricing options, but what would a student price get them that the Developer Edition doesn't get them? Student pricing is typically only usable for non-production/non-commercial uses (i.e., development), so it seems like the free Developer Edition covers that. Scott On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jenny Gavin-Wear jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk wrote: Adobe missed the boat years ago to give it away either free or at a student price. -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355015 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Well I think the old cf is not a real programming language Stigma that CF used to have is really only going to be voiced by old biased cf haters from the last century. anyone new coming to cf is not likely to be confronted with that. It is far more likely that they go ask on a forum what language should I learn and CF is not even mentioned. It certainly isn't heralded as the easy to learn or only need a basic bunch of tags solution any more, even though it still can do that, because everyone is so OOP obsessed they wont even consider suggesting a non OOP approach, which is a shame. Anyone wanting a simple, easy to learn newbie language these days is likely to be pointed toward ROR. CF has always been a total PITA from a hosting perspective due to the fact it is JAVA which doesn't run as a process like PHP or ASP.NET, which is also what causes all its security and performance issues as well, it really has no place in the shared hosting world, Java and thus CF really do belong in the enterprise world. The only way to run CF as a process I am aware of is to use the Helicon zoo engine with Railo, which runs each website as a separate java process under application pool identity, so completely isolates every site as you would PHP. Once upon a time it did used to be cheaper and more cost effective to use CF because it was so much faster to produce the end result, but that is not the case any more. Using CF is actually more expensive in every way due to the lack of off the shelf apps and OSS. Anyone with a bit of savvy can knock out a website in WorldPress in a day, pickup a cheap template, and no development cost as there is a plugin for just about anything you could imagine. To do the same in CF has quite a hefty cost, the best you could do is use MangoBlog or Mura, but they are unlikely to do everything you need out of the box, and there are are very few templates, so you will need a designer and a cf developer. A CFDEV charges considerably more than a PHP dev on average as well. Where CF is still strong I think is for bespoke apps and backend systems where there is no off the shelf OSS that will do what you need. Or for folks that want to leverage the power of Java in a more simple way. But Then Groovy/Grails is also a seriously contender on that front too and they are FREE. It is easy to say CF is wonderful if CF is the only thing you know, sure it allows you to write less code and get more results right out of the box, but with all the frameworks out there days for every other language, they are all capable of doing pretty much the same thing, just not out of the box, but then CF is really just a framework for java if you think about it. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote: They can certainly consider pricing options, but what would a student price get them that the Developer Edition doesn't get them? Student pricing is typically only usable for non-production/non-commercial uses (i.e., development), so it seems like the free Developer Edition covers that. Scott On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Jenny Gavin-Wear jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk wrote: Adobe missed the boat years ago to give it away either free or at a student price. -- - Scott Brady http://www.scottbrady.net/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355017 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
It's a good banana among a boatload of other perfectly good bananas being traded on an imaginary software commodity exchange. Exactly. There is all sorts of amazing things going on out there. Ex: I have been digging into the .NET world and I am nothing short of amazed as to what folks are doing on that front. Visual studio has a package manager much like YUM for Linux... You type in a command at the command prompt within VS and it includes packages like angular.js or Twitter Bootstrap or into your app just like you install apps with YUM on Linux. I was all Whoah, wait, what? Is this a MS product? Kick ass!! I am a huge fan of Railo btw but the webdev landscape is radically different than it was a scant 2-3 years ago. As I am fond of saying Everything you know is wrong every 3 to 5 years. In the same breath I have to say that the back end is quickly becoming little more than a service layer for your database and for things that JS and/or mobile apps can't do or do well. I have heard several times in the last week (from developers of various back end languages) that the back end is just a matter of preference anymore. Everything is moving to AJAX, Mobile apps and client side app MVC frameworks like Backbone.js and Angular.js so just as long as you can expose your back end via Rest and/or SOAP web services it really doesn't matter what you are running server side. And as we all know CF makes it ridiculously easy to do both :) Just some observations and my $0.02 on the matter... And as always, worth every penny. G! On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.comwrote: It's a good banana among a boatload of other perfectly good bananas being traded on an imaginary software commodity exchange. -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355019 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
On 3/14/2013 4:26 AM, Dave Watts wrote: programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can not quite. make sure you're sitting down not drinking anything, then check the price of an arcGIS server license (inside the US, prices outside the US might make your head explode). plus you need at least one desktop seat (about the same cost as enterprise cf) just to manage your arcGIS servers. in large enterprise projects that make use of that kind of server platform, cf's relatively cheap a very nice fit especially where you have to dip into java libs to get stuff done, run off reports, etc. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355021 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
CF running out of steam
-Original Message- From: Adam Cameron [mailto:adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com] That it is running out of steam and becoming less and less relevant as time goes on *** Why? Lack of support and innovation from Adobe? There seems to be no consensus on what should replace it. In what ways? Is it not good enough for today's web pages and data retrieval, or is it a lack of support for mobile devices? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354984 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
That it is running out of steam and becoming less and less relevant as time goes on *** Why? Lack of support and innovation from Adobe? There seems to be no consensus on what should replace it. In what ways? Is it not good enough for today's web pages and data retrieval, or is it a lack of support for mobile devices? I suspect the price tag has something to do with it: most programming languages are free. Plus it's closed source, which some people are hesitant about (but I think *most* people who claim to be into OSS software are actually into *free* software?) Adobe don't market it at all, so it doesn't make any in roads into sectors of the industry which don't care about OSS nor are frightened by the price tag. I also think that CF previously being marketed as a language any muppet can code in has worked against it: we've now got a lot of muppets writing really bad code, and the reputation that the language is *only* good for muppets will frighten off people who might deepen the CFML developer skill pool. This is really unfortunate for CFML, as it's a pretty handy language, and I - personally - rather enjoy working with it. But there are fewer and fewer jobs around (yes, there are *some* jobs around, but there are definitely fewer than there has been at any other point in the last ten years), because companies seem to be porting away from it. I know a lot of companies and studios that used to use CF and have moved away onto other languages, but I don't know of any traffic in the other direction, unfortunately. That's my take on it, anyhow. Opinions will vary. -- Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354985 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
That it is running out of steam and becoming less and less relevant as time goes on My personal opinion is that Adobe needs to rebrand it. Give it a new name that reflects its use of java and it's multi-platform deployment options. Maybe a name like JavaFusion or JMelt ... something new and modern. Rebrand and revitalize the product with a new market push focusing on portability, security, object oriented programming, etc... they need to dole it out to schools for free like there's no tomorrow and they need to improve the integration with other Adobe products like PDF and Photoshop... their shouldn't be any product on the market that could do more with image manipulation and PDF generation. I think CF is great, but it does seem like Adobe marketing, and to some point Adobe development, is asleep at the wheel. I can hear them snoring from here. Robert Harrison Director of Interactive Services ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354986 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
That it is running out of steam and becoming less and less relevant as time goes on *** Why? Lack of support and innovation from Adobe? There seems to be no consensus on what should replace it. In what ways? Is it not good enough for today's web pages and data retrieval, or is it a lack of support for mobile devices? I don't know if it's any of those things. But I also don't know how long it'll take for it to completely run out of steam. And it's important to remember, everything - EVERYTHING - runs out of steam eventually. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if CF outlives ASP.NET in it's recognizable current form. I also wouldn't be entirely surprised if I'm still doing some CF work ten years from now. I don't think there's all that much room for innovation in server-side programming. CF does what you need with server-side programming. But server-side application development tools are basically a commodity at this point. You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can build in one that I can't build in another. At that point, it largely becomes a matter of personal preference. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354987 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
but it does seem like Adobe marketing, and to some point Adobe development, is asleep at the wheel. I can hear them snoring from here. They could start by giving CF the place it deserves on ther Web site. How many steps do we have to go through before we find a single page about CF in their site. Imagine someone who doesn't know CF and wants details about it... :-( ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354988 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Maybe they would just Google it. ;) First link is *ColdFusion* - Adobe http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html www.adobe.com/products/*coldfusion*-family.html (pardon the ugly paste) On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:31 PM, wrote: but it does seem like Adobe marketing, and to some point Adobe development, is asleep at the wheel. I can hear them snoring from here. They could start by giving CF the place it deserves on ther Web site. How many steps do we have to go through before we find a single page about CF in their site. Imagine someone who doesn't know CF and wants details about it... :-( ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354990 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354991 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
I think time just stopped. I actually agree with Claude Schneegans. Holy hell. Clearly we've all entered some sort of alternate universe or something. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354993 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Oh I think the home page is great. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html If you meant the _Adobe_ home page, I think it is great too, but I'm probably biased. ;) I can't see many coders going to adobe.com looking for random development languages. I think the audience is totally different. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354994 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
... You can do anything with anything. There's nothing I can build in one that I can't build in another. At that point, it largely becomes a matter of personal preference. I largely agree with your assessment. From many that I've spoken with the biggest challenge facing CF isn't that the language or platform is running out of steam but that newer/younger developers are not picking it up and running with it. Companies seem to be having trouble finding enough CF developers to meet demand. That, I believe, is the greatest threat to the platform. I've pitched clients on projects in CF and have lost out to developers on other platforms because the business fears that it won't be able to find anyone to support the finished product if something happens to me, or that if their business takes off they won't be able to build a large enough team to support the growing application. If anything, it's just not popular with newer developers or they've heard rumors of it being dead and don't want to waste their time. I don't have a solution to that problem, and it's a tough nut to crack, but unless the perception is changed I think that trend will continue. Having said all that, there is no shortage of CF work out there to be done. Adding other tools and technologies to your toolbelt can create new opportunities and provide a safety net as well, but for the time being CF is still my primary source of income and probably will continue to be for many years to come. -Justin ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354995 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
Probably true, but a menu link to the CF home page on the abode.com page under the Web Development and HTML section would be nice. There is even an empty space for it. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Raymond Camden raymondcam...@gmail.comwrote: Oh I think the home page is great. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion-family.html If you meant the _Adobe_ home page, I think it is great too, but I'm probably biased. ;) I can't see many coders going to adobe.com looking for random development languages. I think the audience is totally different. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354996 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
+ 1 *Bryan Stevenson*B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. - makers of FACTS^(TM) phone: 250.480.0642 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com mailto:br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com http://www.electricedgesystems.com and www.fisheryfacts.com http://www.fisheryfacts.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail -CONFIDENTIALITY-- This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. On 13-03-13 02:36 PM, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claude_Schn=E9egans wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:354997 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: CF running out of steam
It is too expensive and its main competition is free. It's not just expensive for business running their own servers, it is expensive for hosting companies too. Adobe missed the boat years ago to give it away either free or at a student price. When I talk to potential customers, none of them have heard of it and it puts up a barrier. I agree that customers worry that if I was ever not around, who could they find to help them, this loses me too many potential customers and even existing customers I have worked with for years have the same underlying concerns. Even the upgrade prices are extortionate and what we actually get in an upgrade often isn't that big a deal to MOST developers. Since version 7 the only feature I have come to need that is in a current product is EXIF extraction. There is almost a complete lack of applications in developed with CF. Look a PHP applications: phpBB, WordPress, osCommerce - here are some more:- http://blog.fedecarg.com/2008/05/22/20-most-influential-open-source-web-appl ications/ Google for Coldfusion applications:- https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=ensclient=psy-abq=copldfusion+applicationsoq =copldfusion+applicationsgs_l=hp.3..0i13l2j0i13i30j0i13i10i30.91106.93524.2 .93995.13.12.0.0.0.2.153.1513.0j12.12.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.5.psy-ab.Xpivj0a2 0Topbx=1bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.bvm=bv.43287494,d.d2kfp=d76e512bfb3860c7b iw=1680bih=893 Don't get me wrong, I love Coldfusion, but I can't see it lasting unless Adobe do something drastic to get the ball rolling - I don't see that happening, and even if they did, it is probably too late. -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:br...@electricedgesystems.com] Sent: 14 March 2013 00:14 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: CF running out of steam + 1 *Bryan Stevenson*B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. - makers of FACTS^(TM) phone: 250.480.0642 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com mailto:br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com http://www.electricedgesystems.com and www.fisheryfacts.com http://www.fisheryfacts.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail -CONFIDENTIALITY-- This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. On 13-03-13 02:36 PM, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claude_Schn=E9egans wrote: Maybe they would just Google it. Google is a good tool but not an excuse for having a poor home page. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355004 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
it is expensive for hosting companies too. Yep. $8,500 for CF 10 Enterprise which is really needed for shared hosting. I love CF with a passion but I have been shopping for a replacement in earnest for the last 6 months. I am learning .NET in preparation of the Impending Zombie Apocalypse. I have been in denial for far too long, Unless Railo or OBD can spark interest like that video on How to Make a blog in 15 min with Rails did, I fear that efforts at this juncture are too little and too late. Interesting observation. I noticed that the long running CF is dead conversation has moved to the acceptance phase of the five stages of grief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model Sigh G! On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Jenny Gavin-Wear jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk wrote: it is expensive for hosting companies too. -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355006 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CF running out of steam
I moved 77 sites from Abode CF to Railo without changing one line of code, and they are all functional and performing better than they did on ACF. YMMV. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: . I have been in denial for far too long, Unless Railo or OBD can spark interest like that video on How to Make a blog in 15 min with Rails did, I fear that efforts at this juncture are too little and too late. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:355007 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
