RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Vince Bonfanti]

Hi Damien,

I read more of Bryan's comments, as you suggested, and I think he's a loon
and doesn't know what he's talking about. The original licensing and 2003
re-licensing of Java by Microsoft was done to allow MS to continue to
distribute their version of Java (which they're no longer allowed to call
"Java") with Windows. Sun actually wanted Microsoft to do this, so that you
can continue to run Java applets in IE "out of the box" without downloading
and installing a JRE. There is no way MS used any of the Java source code to
create .NET, as Bryan states.

Regards,

Vince

> -Original Message-
> From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 4:58 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and 
> Windows' future
> 
> To finish the thread (to CF-OT we go?) please read some more 
> of Bryan's comments at 
> http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/date.html
> before completely dismissing the .NET-Java tie.
> 
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - 
> http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include 
>



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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[dave]

and apples sales were up a whopping 24% so far this year :)

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:50 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future 

On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti  wrote:
> MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
> giving it their stockholders as dividends, 

To try to stimulate growth because they have none.

> not because they're losing money

Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, but a
stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. And depending on
how you look at it, not gaining is losing.

> (they're not--MS continues to be the most profitable company in the history
> of the world). And don't forget that it took the Roman Empire over 400 years
> to fall, depending on where you measure its "peak".

True. They were quite a bit bigger - point is they fell though.

> The link came from the original message in this thread:
> 
> http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000393.html

danke :)



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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Damien McKenna]

To finish the thread (to CF-OT we go?) please read some more of Bryan's
comments at
http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/date.html
before completely dismissing the .NET-Java tie.

-- 
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The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 


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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Kwang Suh]

>You just answered your own question. If you pay more dividends, more
>people buy the stock, more people buying your stock == higher stock
>value == growth

What you are talking about is stock price appreciation, which is not "growth".  
"Growth" is stuff like selling more products and increasing revenue.  Stock 
price appreciation can occur for a number of reasons, of which "growth" is but 
one.

Higher dividends may lead to stock price appreciation due to increased demand 
of that stock, and solely because of that reason.

>
>
>Why? And what is "short term" is 3 years too short?

Yes.  If 3 years is "long term", then what's 25 years?

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

BAH! this is getting(?) way off topic Kwang email me off list if you
want to continue :)

On 5/27/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Jordan Michaels]

Kwang Suh wrote:

>>On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
>>>giving it their stockholders as dividends, 
>>>  
>>>
>>To try to stimulate growth because they have none.
>>
>>
>
>How does giving dividends to shareholders stimulate growth?
>  
>
It's the "I gotta get me some of that!" syndrome.

Who among us hasn't envied the success of MS? Whether we like them or not...

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

On 5/27/05, Kwang Suh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
> >> giving it their stockholders as dividends,
> >
> >To try to stimulate growth because they have none.
> 
> How does giving dividends to shareholders stimulate growth?
> 
> MS shareholders have been clamoring for _years_ to have the share dividend 
> raised.

You just answered your own question. If you pay more dividends, more
people buy the stock, more people buying your stock == higher stock
value == growth

> 
> >
> >> not because they're losing money
> >
> >Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
> >know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, but a
> >stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. And depending on
> >how you look at it, not gaining is losing.
> 
> Looking at the short term stock price as a gauge of company health is invalid.

Why? And what is "short term" is 3 years too short?


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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Kwang Suh]

>On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
>> giving it their stockholders as dividends, 
>
>To try to stimulate growth because they have none.

How does giving dividends to shareholders stimulate growth?

MS shareholders have been clamoring for _years_ to have the share dividend 
raised.

>
>> not because they're losing money
>
>Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
>know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, but a
>stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. And depending on
>how you look at it, not gaining is losing.

Looking at the short term stock price as a gauge of company health is invalid.

There are other alternatives for MS.  They could just as easily turn into an 
income trust, for instance.

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Kwang Suh]

>On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
>> giving it their stockholders as dividends, 
>
>To try to stimulate growth because they have none.

How does giving dividends to shareholders stimulate growth?

MS shareholders have been clamoring for _years_ to have the share dividend 
raised.

>
>> not because they're losing money
>
>Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
>know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, but a
>stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. And depending on
>how you look at it, not gaining is losing.

Looking at the short term stock price as a gauge of company health is invalid.

There are other alternatives for MS.  They could just as easily turn into an 
income trust, for instance.

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > To try to stimulate growth because they have none.
> >
> 
> To stimulate growth of the stock price--is that what you mean? 

It is.

> Yes, but if we're all dead by the time Microsoft falls, it won't matter much
> to us, will it?

True that. (It doesn't even really matter much now I guess - I've
gotten along fine without them so I shouldn't complain) .

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Vince Bonfanti]

> -Original Message-
> From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:49 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and 
> Windows' future
> 
> On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion 
> because they've 
> > been giving it their stockholders as dividends,
> 
> To try to stimulate growth because they have none.
>

To stimulate growth of the stock price--is that what you mean? Giving money
to shareholders as dividends doesn't stimulate revenue growth, but certainly
will cause the stock price to rise.

> > not because they're losing money
> 
> Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
> know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, 
> but a stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. 
> And depending on how you look at it, not gaining is losing.
> 
> > (they're not--MS continues to be the most profitable company in the 
> > history of the world). And don't forget that it took the 
> Roman Empire 
> > over 400 years to fall, depending on where you measure its "peak".
> 
> True. They were quite a bit bigger - point is they fell though.
> 

Yes, but if we're all dead by the time Microsoft falls, it won't matter much
to us, will it?

Vince



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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

> p.s. I'll allow your silly comparison between MS and the Romans to pass only
> to counter-act my silly estimate of MS's financial net worth.

Deal ;)

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

On 5/27/05, Vince Bonfanti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
> giving it their stockholders as dividends, 

To try to stimulate growth because they have none.

> not because they're losing money

Thing happen with companies before they start to lose money (as you
know) - they are trying like mad to keep it from happening, but a
stalled stock is often a sign of bad things to come. And depending on
how you look at it, not gaining is losing.

> (they're not--MS continues to be the most profitable company in the history
> of the world). And don't forget that it took the Roman Empire over 400 years
> to fall, depending on where you measure its "peak".

True. They were quite a bit bigger - point is they fell though.

> The link came from the original message in this thread:
> 
> http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000393.html

danke :)

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Jochem van Dieten]

Damien McKenna wrote:
> From: Vince Bonfanti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> 
>> Who is Bryan J. Smith?
> 
> A local knowledgable geek.

In the land of the blind ...

Jochem

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Kwang Suh]

>He may be talking about the object model?

No, he is not.  I suspect he doesn't know what he's talking about.

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Mike Klostermeyer]

"Who's Marc?"
 - No idea

OK, you're right.  Their total assets are only 92,389,000,000, not a
trillion.  In my mind I was adding to that their total impact on the IT
industry, in which case trillion is vastly under-estimated.

My point was this: for the author to insinuate that because some 'Marc' guy
(whom nobody seems to know who the hell he is) left a multi-billion dollar,
market dominating, company is THE sign that the company was 'over' is just
plain stupid, and I feel dumber for having read it.

p.s. I'll allow your silly comparison between MS and the Romans to pass only
to counter-act my silly estimate of MS's financial net worth.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:36 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows'
future


On 5/27/05, Mike Klostermeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft is
> over as a software company..."

Who's Marc?

> Yep, couldn't agree more.  I'm tossing all of my MS servers/desktops and
all
> MS software out in the trash today.  That trillion dollar, market
> dominating, company is finished!

It's not trillion, it's billion, was 60 now 30, and the dollar amount
has been steadily falling.

> give me a break...

Rome fall? give me a break...


Where is that comming from Vince?

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Kwang Suh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> >> "...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to 
> >> Microsoft's recent re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on
> >> Java 1.1..."
> >Why is that foolishness?
> 
> Because it's nonsense.
> Besides the fact that .NET isn't "based" (whatever the hell 
> that means) off any version of Java, I think your 
> "knowledgable (sic) geek" meant that C#2.0 resembles Java 
> 1.5.  There are no equivalents to VB.NET and ASP.NET in the 
> J2EE world.

He may be talking about the object model?

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Matthew Small]

I've never heard that .NET is based on Java.  Where did that information
come from?  

- Matt Small


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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Vince Bonfanti]

> -Original Message-
> From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:07 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and 
> Windows' future
> 

> 
> > These two statements of his strike me as utter foolishness:
> > 
> > "...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to 
> Microsoft's recent 
> > re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on Java 1.1..."
> 
> Why is that foolishness?
> 

Because it's simply not true, regarding either .NET 1.1 or 2.0.

Vince



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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Kwang Suh]

>> "...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to 
>> Microsoft's recent re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on
>> Java 1.1..."
>
>Why is that foolishness?

Because it's nonsense.

Besides the fact that .NET isn't "based" (whatever the hell that means) off any 
version of Java, I think your "knowledgable (sic) geek" meant that C#2.0 
resembles Java 1.5.  There are no equivalents to VB.NET and ASP.NET in the J2EE 
world.

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Vince Bonfanti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> Who is Bryan J. Smith?

A local knowledgable geek.

> These two statements of his strike me as utter foolishness:
> 
> "...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to 
> Microsoft's recent re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on
> Java 1.1..."

Why is that foolishness?

> "...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign 
> that Microsoft is over as a software company..."

I'm not sure which Marc he's talking about, but they sure do have a
problem living up to their own hype.  If someone he sees as a key
developer leaves then he might see their software development
capabilities tarnished to where the quality deteriorates to the point
they are unable to compete.  He may also have been talking strictly
about the quality of their software as opposed to their monopolistic
abilities to push their latest on the market and have idiot managers and
media lap it up.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[John Dowdell]

Rob wrote:
> On 5/27/05, Mike Klostermeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>"...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft is
>>over as a software company..."
> 
> Who's Marc?

Mark Lucovsky...?
http://mark-lucovsky.blogspot.com/
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1772125,00.asp

jd




-- 
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Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.

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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Vince Bonfanti]

MS's cash reserves have dropped from 60 to 30 billion because they've been
giving it their stockholders as dividends, not because they're losing money
(they're not--MS continues to be the most profitable company in the history
of the world). And don't forget that it took the Roman Empire over 400 years
to fall, depending on where you measure its "peak".

The link came from the original message in this thread:

http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000393.html

Vince 

> -Original Message-
> From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 2:36 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and 
> Windows' future
> 
> On 5/27/05, Mike Klostermeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign 
> that Microsoft 
> > is over as a software company..."
> 
> Who's Marc?
> 
> > Yep, couldn't agree more.  I'm tossing all of my MS 
> servers/desktops 
> > and all MS software out in the trash today.  That trillion dollar, 
> > market dominating, company is finished!
> 
> It's not trillion, it's billion, was 60 now 30, and the 
> dollar amount has been steadily falling.
> 
> > give me a break...
> 
> Rome fall? give me a break...
> 
> 
> Where is that comming from Vince?
>



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Re: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Rob]

On 5/27/05, Mike Klostermeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft is
> over as a software company..."

Who's Marc?

> Yep, couldn't agree more.  I'm tossing all of my MS servers/desktops and all
> MS software out in the trash today.  That trillion dollar, market
> dominating, company is finished!

It's not trillion, it's billion, was 60 now 30, and the dollar amount
has been steadily falling.

> give me a break...

Rome fall? give me a break...


Where is that comming from Vince?

-- 
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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Mike Klostermeyer]

"...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft is
over as a software company..."

Yep, couldn't agree more.  I'm tossing all of my MS servers/desktops and all
MS software out in the trash today.  That trillion dollar, market
dominating, company is finished!

give me a break...

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Vince Bonfanti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:08 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows'
future


Who is Bryan J. Smith? These two statements of his strike me as utter
foolishness:

"...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to Microsoft's recent
re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on Java 1.1..."

"...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft
is over as a software company..."

Vince

> -Original Message-
> From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:27 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: OT: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and
> Windows' future
>
> While the world is starting to catch on to Longhorn not being
> the promised land it was promoted as over the past five years
> (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1820686,00.asp
> <http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1820686,00.asp> ), the
> ties between .NET and Java continue
> (http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000393.html
> <http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000
> 393.html>
> ).
>
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/
> <http://www.thelimucompany.com/>  - 407-804-1014 #include 
>
>
>
>



~|
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RE: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and Windows' future

[Vince Bonfanti]

Who is Bryan J. Smith? These two statements of his strike me as utter
foolishness:

"...because .NET 2.0 is based on Java 1.4 (thanx to Microsoft's recent
re-license), whereas .NET 1.1 is based on Java 1.1..."

"...once Marc left last year, I think that was the sign that Microsoft
is over as a software company..."

Vince

> -Original Message-
> From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:27 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: OT: Regarding Java and .NET's incestuous ties, and 
> Windows' future
> 
> While the world is starting to catch on to Longhorn not being 
> the promised land it was promoted as over the past five years 
> (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1820686,00.asp
>  ), the 
> ties between .NET and Java continue 
> (http://lists.matrixlist.com/pipermail/pc_support/2005-May/000393.html
>  393.html>
> ).
>  
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ 
>   - 407-804-1014 #include 
>  
> 
> 
> 

~|
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