Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Nothing about lisp is particularly difficult. Pandoric macros, closures, continuations, reader tables, circular structures, lexical vs dynamic scoping, indefinite lifetimes, quasiquoted expressions, or any of the other simple ideas. They are, of course, only simple once you get it. Like everything else, learning a new language really requires you to immerse yourself in the problem. The kid down the street can play any song you mention on his guitar if you just mention the name of the song and even songs that are not written for the guitar. Why? Because he never, ever puts the guitar down. I, on the other hand, have played guitar for 15 years and still find learning a song difficult. In his view I'm still a n00b. Guitars are not hard to learn but you have to give them the time and attention they need. I can't even claim that those elitist guitarists haven't written documentation for a n00b because I have all the books and CDs I could ever want. Pointing out that lisp is hard to learn and those that get it are elitist isn't going to help. I can say the same thing to the guitar-kid and it still won't help me play better. What WILL help is if I would dedicate the time and attention the task needs. Tim Daniel Gagnon wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Brent Millare brent.mill...@gmail.com mailto:brent.mill...@gmail.com wrote: While I agree his wording wasn't really the best, I think it can also be interpreted differently depending on what kind of n00b he is talking about. Your wording isn't much better or maybe it's the idea underneath that doesn't sit right. You basically said They are newbs who couldn't grasp our language, we are elite but there's no shame in being a newb because what we do is so hard! It's not harder to learn Clojure's concurrency than pointers or tons of others things we teach beginners every day. I'd totally teach clojure as a first language. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Mike Meyer wrote: cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is that actually getting anything done with Common Lisp is a nightmare. Really? Axiom was one of the three largest commercial computer algebra systems (alongside Mathematica and Maple). It contains about 1 million things of code (lines of code is meaningless in lisp). Axiom does windowing, 2D and 3D graphics, and communicates with a firefox browser. In its commercial lifetime it had the NAG fortran numeric library in the back end. This is one of many commercial products that use lisp. You just never hear about it. After all, do you know what languages are behind the commercial software you use? Do you even care to know? Try this: http://cs.gmu.edu/~zduric/cs580/pgtalk-rev2.pdf -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: usage examples in clojure api docs
I like the idea of having example code for all the functions. However, speaking for myself only, I don't think that the doc strings are the place for a comprehensive set of examples. How about building them in some external place? (Maybe as a separate github project to begin with.) In particular, it would be nice if the examples used some literate programming technique that let users open the examples and play with them. That way, they could be linked to from the documentation (I could roll it into autodoc, for instance, subject to Rich and Stuart's constraints) but also directly opened, tried, copied, etc. from your editor and repl. It's easy for me to imagine that, in the not too distant future, we could roll that into Clojure core in a way similar to the tests. Tom On Jun 28, 9:06 pm, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: Several people have suggested that usage examples in the docs would be helpful and this is something I often find myself wishing for. Are patches introducing examples welcomed by the core team? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Protocols
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com wrote: There are no extension points built on protocols in Clojure yet. Delivering protocols is step one, re-architecting the core abstractions in terms of protocols is still to come. Rich So how hard it would it be right now, for example, to implement in Clojure a deftype that responds to all the functions a sorted map responds to? I started looking through the source code to try to figure out what interfaces I'd need to override, but it seemed like an overwhelming mixture of Clojure and Java interfaces, and very difficult to get right without the ability to use the existing abstract base classes that are in place (AFn, ASeq, APersistentMap, etc.). For example, it seems like to implement IFn, you'd need to manually write out cases for the first twenty arities. Would you recommend waiting until the core abstractions are re-architected before tackling something like this, or is there an easy way to do this I'm not seeing? Thanks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Protocols
manually? did we lose macros? On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mark Engelberg mark.engelb...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com wrote: There are no extension points built on protocols in Clojure yet. Delivering protocols is step one, re-architecting the core abstractions in terms of protocols is still to come. Rich So how hard it would it be right now, for example, to implement in Clojure a deftype that responds to all the functions a sorted map responds to? I started looking through the source code to try to figure out what interfaces I'd need to override, but it seemed like an overwhelming mixture of Clojure and Java interfaces, and very difficult to get right without the ability to use the existing abstract base classes that are in place (AFn, ASeq, APersistentMap, etc.). For example, it seems like to implement IFn, you'd need to manually write out cases for the first twenty arities. Would you recommend waiting until the core abstractions are re-architected before tackling something like this, or is there an easy way to do this I'm not seeing? Thanks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- And what is good, Phaedrus, And what is not good— Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
Hi Jan, Perhaps R's excellent bioconductor project could be mapped nicely into Incanter (Clojure's R) ? Edmund On 27 Jun 2010, at 23:15, jandot wrote: Hi all, I have been a ruby user for several years and have contributed to the bioruby toolkit for bioinformatics. Lately however I got interested in clojure as it's a functional language and should be very good for working with the huge datasets we have to handle. Although there are bioinformatics toolkits for many OO languages (biojava, bioperl, biopython and bioruby), nothing similar exists for clojure yet. And I'd be interested to start building such toolkit while I learn the language. At first for my own use, but maybe later... who knows. Being new to functional languages, I wonder how such a toolkit would be best approached. In an OO language you create classes with properties and methods that describe one particular entitiy in the field. For example: you define a DNASequence class with a name and sequence property, and a method to print it out in an international standard text format, and another method for translating the DNA sequence in that of the resulting protein. Much of the functionality of these toolkits is about retrieving a bit of information, manipulating it and ultimately writing it to screen/file. As functional languages are more about verbs than nouns: how could a bioinformatics toolkit be idiomatically set up? Would it still be the Right Way (TM) to create some type of classes, a-la OO? For more information on the OO toolkits, see www.bioperl.org, www.biojava.org, bioruby.org and biopython.org. As clojure (especially combined with incanter) seems to be a very good candidate for future work in bioinformatics, I would very much welcome a little discussion on this. Many thanks, jan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en Edmund -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure distribution (like what ubuntu is for linux)
Just a quick note. You should also be aware of this project that came out recently: http://github.com/liebke/clj I haven't tried either yet so I can't really comment, but I like the idea of creating and integrated package manager and repl utility. Clj also seems nice in the way it integrates with clojars.org. -Jeff On Jun 28, 10:09 pm, Brent Millare brent.mill...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I finally published my experiment to githubhttp://github.com/bmillare/dj The idea was to create the concept of a distribution for clojure which can maintain itself as well as all the projects created by the developer. It uses public maven repositories as resources but uses no maven code. This has pros and cons, it was relatively simple to implement the basics and I don't have to deal with complicated configurations to get maven work the way I wanted to. The downside was there is a lot of maven-plugins that provide functionality that I have to duplicate. Perhaps I can make a hybrid system in the future. Eventually the goal is to be building-tool agnostic, and provide glue to all the different tools, after all, native dependencies don't really fit the maven model that well. I'm still experimenting how to approach using git repositories as dependencies and versioning them properly. One nice feature I implemented is the ability to add to the classpath at runtime. The README should help explain the motivation and concepts behind the project, and the TUTORIAL should help get someone started in using it. For the truly curious, diving into the code is the only way. There very well should be bugs as well as missing functionality. It at least works well enough for my simple projects. I appreciate any feedback. Best, Brent Millare P.S. I'll update the tutorial in a bit but... using inferior-lisp with dj is easy, just add to the .emacs, (setq inferior-lisp-program ~/bin/dj repl) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
Hi Jan, After coming from Ruby and previous OO languages I think many of us have the same questions. For starters, I'd recommend reading a couple other libraries to get a sense for how people organize libraries. That will probably give you the most concrete sense for how to really get started. Beyond that, I think it is best to just start out light weight and see how far you can go. Represent anything you currently think of as an object, a.k.a. a bag of properties, as a regular clojure map. Don't use records or protocols or structs or metadata or anything fancy, just regular old maps. For modeling sequential data, like DNA base pairs, use vectors. Then create a series of functions to read these things in, write them out, and perform some different transformations. Don't worry so much about where or how in memory you are going to store stuff. Just write a library of functions that can read, write and manipulate your objects of interest. That's pretty much a functional library, and you'll surprise yourself how much can be done in this way. I'm also interested in learning more about bio-informatics so I'd be willing to help out. What is your first target application of the library? What specific kind of research do you want to support? -Jeff On Jun 28, 12:15 am, jandot jan.ae...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have been a ruby user for several years and have contributed to the bioruby toolkit for bioinformatics. Lately however I got interested in clojure as it's a functional language and should be very good for working with the huge datasets we have to handle. Although there are bioinformatics toolkits for many OO languages (biojava, bioperl, biopython and bioruby), nothing similar exists for clojure yet. And I'd be interested to start building such toolkit while I learn the language. At first for my own use, but maybe later... who knows. Being new to functional languages, I wonder how such a toolkit would be best approached. In an OO language you create classes with properties and methods that describe one particular entitiy in the field. For example: you define a DNASequence class with a name and sequence property, and a method to print it out in an international standard text format, and another method for translating the DNA sequence in that of the resulting protein. Much of the functionality of these toolkits is about retrieving a bit of information, manipulating it and ultimately writing it to screen/file. As functional languages are more about verbs than nouns: how could a bioinformatics toolkit be idiomatically set up? Would it still be the Right Way (TM) to create some type of classes, a-la OO? For more information on the OO toolkits, seewww.bioperl.org,www.biojava.org, bioruby.org and biopython.org. As clojure (especially combined with incanter) seems to be a very good candidate for future work in bioinformatics, I would very much welcome a little discussion on this. Many thanks, jan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
Hi, There has been some interest towards Clojure from the cheminformatics community as well (e.g. http://blog.rguha.net/?tag=clojure ) in relation to the Chemistry Development Toolkit (CDK, http://sourceforge.net/projects/cdk) and the approach seems to be to use the CDK java classes directly in clojure or write simple wrapper functions around them and build further abstractions on top. A similar approach here would be to build bioclojure on top of biojava. Best Nik On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, jandot jan.ae...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have been a ruby user for several years and have contributed to the bioruby toolkit for bioinformatics. Lately however I got interested in clojure as it's a functional language and should be very good for working with the huge datasets we have to handle. Although there are bioinformatics toolkits for many OO languages (biojava, bioperl, biopython and bioruby), nothing similar exists for clojure yet. And I'd be interested to start building such toolkit while I learn the language. At first for my own use, but maybe later... who knows. Being new to functional languages, I wonder how such a toolkit would be best approached. In an OO language you create classes with properties and methods that describe one particular entitiy in the field. For example: you define a DNASequence class with a name and sequence property, and a method to print it out in an international standard text format, and another method for translating the DNA sequence in that of the resulting protein. Much of the functionality of these toolkits is about retrieving a bit of information, manipulating it and ultimately writing it to screen/file. As functional languages are more about verbs than nouns: how could a bioinformatics toolkit be idiomatically set up? Would it still be the Right Way (TM) to create some type of classes, a-la OO? For more information on the OO toolkits, seewww.bioperl.org,www.biojava.org, bioruby.org and biopython.org. As clojure (especially combined with incanter) seems to be a very good candidate for future work in bioinformatics, I would very much welcome a little discussion on this. Many thanks, jan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Jeff Rose ros...@gmail.com wrote: Don't use records or protocols or structs or metadata or anything fancy, just regular old maps. For modeling sequential data, like DNA base pairs, use vectors. Then create a series of functions to read these things in, write them out, and perform some different transformations. Don't worry so much about where or how in memory you are going to store stuff. Just write a library of functions that can read, write and manipulate your objects of interest. That's pretty much a functional library, and you'll surprise yourself how much can be done in this way. +1 if you make the function not just for vector but for any seqs. That way of we need special BioSeqs someday... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: usage examples in clojure api docs
There is Walton that covers that. Talk to defn in #clojure if you want to know detail Regards, Heinz Sent from my iPad On Jun 29, 2010, at 6:06 AM, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: Several people have suggested that usage examples in the docs would be helpful and this is something I often find myself wishing for. Are patches introducing examples welcomed by the core team? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Newb Question
Oh well.. Thanks for the tips!!! On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Mike Meyer m...@mired.org wrote: On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:22:15 -0700 (PDT) José Luis Romero tangu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! I am learning the core of clojure, and so far, I am loving it. But I am not a lisp programmer (python, java, among others), but never functional programming. I am practicing with codingbat.com, coding the exercises on clojure. I am stuck with loops. I want to concatenate n times a string. For example, given the parameters 3 and code the output will be codecodecode. How can I do a loop in order to get this output. I know that this is a very newb question, any help will be appreciated. You really shouldn't be doing loops in clojure. There's almost always a non-looping construct that solves the same problem. I.e., your string repeat would be: (apply str (repeat 3 code)) Other than that, there are two common looping constructs: dotimes and recur. You can find out about them by asking at the repl: user (doc dotimes). Except loop points you to the web, so here's a summary: recur terminates a loop that was started by either a loop or defn. recur has the form (recur new-values). An initial loop statement has the form (loop [var value ...] body). Defn you should know :-). The recur statement goes back to loop replacing the value of each var (either in the loop or function arguments) with the new values in the recur statement. You could write your string-repeater as: (defn string-dup [count string-in] (loop [count count resuls string-in] (if (== count 0) result (recur (dec count) (str result string-in) But again, the better way would be (defn string-dup [count string] (apply str (repeat count string))) mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
Bonjour Nicolas, I've started using clojure for my bioinformatics work, but it is still *very* early days. Will try to become more proficient in it, but slowly building up a toolkit for myself might just be the seed for bioclojure. Have no idea to what extent clojure is used at the moment in the field. Will have a look at protocols and defrecord. Will keep you informed if/ when I think I can take it further. jan. On Jun 28, 7:22 pm, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I am using Clojure for bioinformatics, but not the same kind of stuff. I am writing a stochastic simulator. Would love to discuss more about your idea though. You can have something quite close to what you describe as the OO approach with protocols and data-types. + by using defrecord, you can easily have generic functions. That would the easier approach, I think. I will have a look to bio*. But if you want to start a project, count me in. On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 11:15 PM, jandot jan.ae...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have been a ruby user for several years and have contributed to the bioruby toolkit for bioinformatics. Lately however I got interested in clojure as it's a functional language and should be very good for working with the huge datasets we have to handle. Although there are bioinformatics toolkits for many OO languages (biojava, bioperl, biopython and bioruby), nothing similar exists for clojure yet. And I'd be interested to start building such toolkit while I learn the language. At first for my own use, but maybe later... who knows. Being new to functional languages, I wonder how such a toolkit would be best approached. In an OO language you create classes with properties and methods that describe one particular entitiy in the field. For example: you define a DNASequence class with a name and sequence property, and a method to print it out in an international standard text format, and another method for translating the DNA sequence in that of the resulting protein. Much of the functionality of these toolkits is about retrieving a bit of information, manipulating it and ultimately writing it to screen/file. As functional languages are more about verbs than nouns: how could a bioinformatics toolkit be idiomatically set up? Would it still be the Right Way (TM) to create some type of classes, a-la OO? For more information on the OO toolkits, seewww.bioperl.org, www.biojava.org, bioruby.org and biopython.org. As clojure (especially combined with incanter) seems to be a very good candidate for future work in bioinformatics, I would very much welcome a little discussion on this. Many thanks, jan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Full disclosure, I never liked ruby or python, I'm more of a perl/c++/ R guy. I'm new to clojure as well, and love it. I don't mind learning LISP at all. I find it refreshing. It takes the bureaucracy out of Java. When I can, I explore ways in which incanter, cascalog, hadoop, mahout, weka, and compojure might play nice together. If they can, I will be pretty ecstatic. I'm not a CLASSPATH expert by any means, but I think Leiningen should be the tool to deal with all that. I really like the idea of the project.clj file. I just add a few lines to that and lein does the rest. I think letting Leiningen solve installation problems is a good way to go. Even for newbies. Go Leiningen!! ~Avram On Jun 28, 12:58 pm, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 28, 12:25 pm, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: I believe that the success of ruby is due in great part to *Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby* and *Learn You a Haskell* is doing the same for Haskell. It's fun to read, it holds your hand in setting up everything you have to and it makes you want to learn more. I'm not so sure. Certainly things like the poignant guide made getting started with Ruby easier, but I'd argue that the success of Ruby has a lot more to do with how simple the core language it is and how easy it makes it to get simple things done. Conversely, despite increasingly beginner-friendly docs and one-shot installers I don't get the impression there's a bit upsurge of interest in Haskell outside of circles of elites or language afficionados. Haskell just isn't the kind of language that lets you slap a couple of web forms on a database 30 minutes after getting started. It's a power language for power users, like Clojure. I've been following FP for about ten years now and in that time I've seen Ruby and Python grow like gangbusters while languages like Haskell make very small, incremental inroads into niche areas. I don't expect this to change. Again though, I'm all for making the beginner's experience no harder than it absolutely has to be. No point having people turned away by things extrinsic to the language. I often find myself frustrated browsing through the docs that there aren't concrete examples for most of the functions in the API. I always have to google their usage or find an example in the clojure code. I'd be happy to help flesh out the docs with some usage examples if this kind of help is wanted. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
A certain proportion of new clojure users are coming from non-Java/non-JVM backgrounds. To them, how do I make an executable is a perfectly valid question. And clojure doesn't do executables isn't a particularly encouraging answer (not even if you blame Java for it :-)) Classpaths, server vs client JVMs, ant/maven, all of these are confusing hurdles to get over if you don't have any Java experience. Thanks Paul, you get it. :-) To Mike: I of course know what a jar file is, but your nitpicking at my choice of words of executable is unhelpful, abrasive, and totally counterproductive. A jar file with a main class is the pretty much an executable for all intents and purposes. The question how do I make an executable from my source code in Clojure? is, as Paul points out, a perfectly valid question that newbs to Clojure *will ask*, and they need a good answer. Not there's not such thing as an executable you n00b! Bah humbug! BTW, I really like Paul's QA's, how would one go about getting something like that on either clojure.org or the Assembla wiki? - Greg On Jun 28, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Paul Moore wrote: On 28 June 2010 19:49, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Yet another set of choices n00bs are faced with is figuring out how to actually compile their source into an executable. Executable? We're talking about Java here. It doesn't do executables - it does jar files. There's little reason to build those as a newb, as it's not noticeably harder to run the source than it is to run a jar file - or to import them if you're building libraries. We're not talking about Java here, we're talking about clojure! A certain proportion of new clojure users are coming from non-Java/non-JVM backgrounds. To them, how do I make an executable is a perfectly valid question. And clojure doesn't do executables isn't a particularly encouraging answer (not even if you blame Java for it :-)) Classpaths, server vs client JVMs, ant/maven, all of these are confusing hurdles to get over if you don't have any Java experience. For such people, introductory clojure material needs to (a) assume no JVM/Java knowledge, and (b) provide some guidance for how to interpret the inevitable Java terminology that a newcomer will encounter. For example: Q: How do I make an executable in clojure? A: Clojure scripts can be executed in a similar manner to scripting languages like Python or Perl - clj myscript.clj. [Note: a standard clj wrapper script should be supplied with clojure!] However, even when executed like this, clojure code is compiled (for more details read up on JVM bytecode, and the Java just in time compilers). You can compile clojure code into a jar file - which is a JVM executable format which can be run using the java command (insert reference to more detailed explanation here). More or less self-contained formats (bundling dependencies, or hiding the invocation of the java command) are possible, but are generally reserved for more specialised applications. Q: What are ant, maven? A: JVM build systems, commonly used in the Java world. The clojure community is beginning to standardise on Leiningen (insert reference here) which uses a more clojure-like language for describing builds, but which works with the existing ant/maven infrastructure (so all of the existing libraries available via these tools are available for free in Leiningen). If these examples are useful, feel free to add them to a FAQ or newbie documentation. Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: the joys of lisp
The Python approach leads to more readable code: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/readability.html The two cases he sites do not apply to Clojure: The first case is a function that is allowed to change the value of a variable passed into it. Variables are immutable in Clojure so you can't write the dangerous 'inc' function he describes. You can't change the value of a variable passed to a function in Python either, but you can pass a mutable object to a function and have the function modify the object, which is close to the same thing. Clojure is much more readable than Python in this regard. The second case is a function that is allowed to change the order of evaluation of its arguments, decide how many times to evaluate its arguments, and even whether or not to evaluate an argument at all. True, in a language that allows side effects this can be confusing. But this doesn't apply to Clojure. (Clojure does allow side effects through STM of course, but this is very explicit and controlled - more readable.) I agree that macros can in some cases lead to less readable code. On the other hand, mutability hurts readability too. Steve On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:21:24 -0700 (PDT) cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 28, 11:09 am, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: That feature would *not* be a simple macro. It isn't simply a call to .close on whatever object, it's an arbitrary cleanup procedure on any object that implements the feature. The whole standard library implements it and objects know how to clean after themselves. So do most third objects like database connexions and what not. So in order to make this work in Python the *entire* standard library had to be modified to support it? That's worse than I thought. No, only those that wanted to take advantage of it. It's an interesting point though. In a certain sense, a macro is establishing an interface across a set of objects. In writing a macro you are implying that there exists a set of objects for which the macro's transformation is logical. The python with statement required implementation of the implied interface across all valid arguments, whereas the macro version takes advantage of the fact that most of the applicable objects just happen to have a .close method. In both cases you're dealing with with-able objects. The difference is that the interface that objects can expose to macros is much richer because arbitrary syntactic fragments are objects in this sense. You're making a false assumption. Most of the valid library objects *didn't* have a .close method. The decimal library was tweaked to allow the with statement to create a new context, and automatically restore the previous one. The various forms of locking things were all tweaked so that you could use the with statement to acquire a lock that was released on exit. These things could have been done with a simple macro, but would have required tweaking the library to add a close function for the objects, even if the function name made no semantic sense. Either that, or use a different name for the function, and then go through and rewrite the *entire* standard library to take advantage of it. The python approach is superior if you believe, as Guido apparently does, that the useful set of syntactic constructs is small and well- bounded. If you think, as most lispers do, that syntactic manipulation is the essence of expressive power then the work it takes to add *one* new keyword to a language like python seems farcical. The Python approach leads to more readable code: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/readability.html mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: the joys of lisp
Terseness and density is what attracted me to lisp-style languages in the first place. In Clojure it is generally easier to locally comprehend everything that is going on without having to go chasing through a bunch of class definitions, and the code is often declarative enough to serve as its own documentation. Of course poorly written code is always painful to read, and written macros are even worse. Isn't this why it's generally an accepted principle that macros should only be written when there is a truly compelling reason to do so? I would also argue that Clojure's functional immutability and lazy sequences tend to nudge us in the right direction in a better way than Python's linguistic strictness does. Whenever I write bad Clojure, I get a Very Bad Feeling and the You're Doing It Wrong alarms start going crazy in the back of my mind because there is a lot of philosophical impedance. With Python it seems much more likely for an initially clean code base to devolve into a side-effect-filled, OO-inheritance-crazy imperative mess over time. -Ryan On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: This is mostly due to Python's There is only one obvious way to do it which makes reading code much simpler. On the other hand it is possible but harder to make lisp code as readable (my code became much more readable after I discovered the threading macros for instance) and often lisp is harder to read per line but does much more in that small amount of space than another language would. Same principle as yet another Java class full of getters and setters being trivial to read but not getting much done per line. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Newb Question
On 28 June 2010 20:24, Angel Java Lopez ajlopez2...@gmail.com wrote: Hi people! Any way to produce a lazy seq of chars, that prints as a string, based on two parameters, n (number of repeats), text (text to repeat)? Then, something like (myrepeat 100 superdupertext) could be implemented without a big processing or concatenation. The built in repeat is lazy: user= (doc repeat) - clojure.core/repeat ([x] [n x]) Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs. Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Along those lines, why is the apply necessary? More clearly, and I encountered this with a different block of code earlier today, repeat returns a lazy sequence. Str does nothing to evaluate that sequences, so (str (repeat ...)) returns a lazy sequence. Why does (apply str (repeat ...)) evaluate the sequence? The documentation for apply does not mention that it will do so. Generally I am having a lot of trouble with sequences because I am never clear on when a lazy sequence will be evaluated strictly. - -- Savanni On 06/28/2010 01:14 PM, Nurullah Akkaya wrote: Hi José, user= (apply str (repeat 3 code)) codecodecode will give you what you want, if we break it down, user= (repeat 3 code) (code code code) repeat will give you a sequence of xs, since you don't know the length of the sequence at compile time we apply str to the sequence (apply str '(code code code)) which basically expands to, (str code code code) then you get, codecodecode -- Nurullah Akkaya http://nakkaya.com 2010/6/27 José Luis Romero tangu...@gmail.com: Hi! I am learning the core of clojure, and so far, I am loving it. But I am not a lisp programmer (python, java, among others), but never functional programming. I am practicing with codingbat.com, coding the exercises on clojure. I am stuck with loops. I want to concatenate n times a string. For example, given the parameters 3 and code the output will be codecodecode. How can I do a loop in order to get this output. I know that this is a very newb question, any help will be appreciated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwo6pEACgkQZIuDAZ4avD+JiQCgkiZg4ADytAL7ujIjq3S/73Up msoAn0Z28vIwjTUXZb9bAN5o8LyDBUja =I0Ni -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
reify bug?
I'm probably doing something wrong but this doesn't work for some reason: user= (seq (.list (java.io.File. .) (reify java.io.FilenameFilter (accept [f s] (not (.startsWith s .)) java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: accept (NO_SOURCE_FILE:36) This does though: user= (seq (.list (java.io.File. .) (proxy [java.io.FilenameFilter] [] (accept [f s] (not (.startsWith s .)) (file1 file2 ... ) Thoughts? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Sean, There are many ways in which one could have the point of view that getting started with Clojure is simple. As I tried to illustrate in the post, there exist other points of view from which this is not true. Just because you found it easy to get started, does not mean others do, and judging from the reaction to my post, I'm by no means the only person to feel this way. You went to a bootcamp to learn clojure, you found some Clojure-MacOSX package, and you're perfectly fine with using a Terminal and TextMate. Others do not come from your point of view. This entire discussion is an exercise in accepting the fact that hundreds of other people who want to learn Clojure and are very much interested in it, nevertheless find it very difficult to get started. Just because you found it simple, does in no way invalidate their point of view. It will only help the language and the community if we address their concerns. Plus, it's just a nice thing to do. If I have time, I'm going to see what I can do about improving clojure's API docs, and if anyone is already working on this sort of project, I'd be interested in possibly helping out. - Greg On Jun 28, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Sean Corfield wrote: On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Greg g...@kinostudios.com wrote: This weekend I've been diving head-first into Clojure, and I've documented a lot of the sticking points that I've run into as a n00b. I'd like to share them with the community here, in the hopes that we might be able to improve the getting started experience for people considering Clojure: http://gregslepak.posterous.com/clojures-n00b-attraction-problem Whilst I have some sympathy with the apparent range of choices, as someone who is also new to Clojure (I attended Amit Rathore's bootcamp in May as my very first exposure to the language), I think you've made life much worse for yourself than you needed to... I'm on a Mac so I use TextMate with a Clojure bundle or I use vi. I don't think you need to worry about an IDE when you're first learning a language. Finding and installing a simple clj script is pretty easy, IMO (I used the Clojure-MacOSX package to get my initial Clojure installation up and running), but mostly I work with lein for 'building' stuff. Getting lein installed was pretty simple, then it's just a case of 'lein new projectname', drop into the new directory, 'lein deps' and then 'lein test'. At that point you can edit the tests, edit the source and compile, test etc as much as you want. I recently had cause to create a JAR that allowed me to call Clojure from a Java web application. There was a pretty good example of that on clojure.org as I recall. 'lein uberjar' was key there. It was about as hard as I would have expected such an experience to be with any new language (new overall and new to me). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 28 June 2010 19:49, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Yet another set of choices n00bs are faced with is figuring out how to actually compile their source into an executable. Executable? We're talking about Java here. It doesn't do executables - it does jar files. There's little reason to build those as a newb, as it's not noticeably harder to run the source than it is to run a jar file - or to import them if you're building libraries. We're not talking about Java here, we're talking about clojure! A certain proportion of new clojure users are coming from non-Java/non-JVM backgrounds. To them, how do I make an executable is a perfectly valid question. And clojure doesn't do executables isn't a particularly encouraging answer (not even if you blame Java for it :-)) Classpaths, server vs client JVMs, ant/maven, all of these are confusing hurdles to get over if you don't have any Java experience. For such people, introductory clojure material needs to (a) assume no JVM/Java knowledge, and (b) provide some guidance for how to interpret the inevitable Java terminology that a newcomer will encounter. For example: Q: How do I make an executable in clojure? A: Clojure scripts can be executed in a similar manner to scripting languages like Python or Perl - clj myscript.clj. [Note: a standard clj wrapper script should be supplied with clojure!] However, even when executed like this, clojure code is compiled (for more details read up on JVM bytecode, and the Java just in time compilers). You can compile clojure code into a jar file - which is a JVM executable format which can be run using the java command (insert reference to more detailed explanation here). More or less self-contained formats (bundling dependencies, or hiding the invocation of the java command) are possible, but are generally reserved for more specialised applications. Q: What are ant, maven? A: JVM build systems, commonly used in the Java world. The clojure community is beginning to standardise on Leiningen (insert reference here) which uses a more clojure-like language for describing builds, but which works with the existing ant/maven infrastructure (so all of the existing libraries available via these tools are available for free in Leiningen). If these examples are useful, feel free to add them to a FAQ or newbie documentation. Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 28, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Lee Spectorr wrote: CLJ might indeed be handy but an editor is essential, and neither this nor the other options mentioned in the CLJ readme includes one as far as I know. My minimal requirements for an editor are that it have a interface that will be natural to any user of the platform and that it provide language-appropriate indentation. Syntax coloring, auto-completion, and integrated access to documentation would also be highly desirable, but not essential. -Lee Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). - Greg -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Being a n00b, 1 year programming, not formally educated in such, 2 weeks with Clojure I am going to agree. Clojure is NOT n00b friendly. The easiest setup I have ever seen dealt with is python. * Most n00bs want a hello world in an application output (via script or compojure). Not in a repl. The repl is a tool to get you there. In order to do this users should really have a 7 step guide on leinington and optionally compojure, unfortunately it's so poorly documented and incorrectly documented it's frustrating for n00bs. In my case I thought I was downloading the current version @4.0, which quite frankly bites because it won't run version 1.2 clojure, which most blogs use functions from. And almost every blog/doc on leinington is old omits/incorrectly states basic steps.(ie they walk you all the way through to lein uberjar, but don't actually put a namespace in the project.clj example), therefore none of the classes compile). If you're on macsox, and get the namespaces down even then the current leinington release barfs on DS_store files (the hot to trot release doesn't however). Quite frankly I love Clojure, but I TOTALLY agree - The clojure world is not stable even if clojure core is. The thing is that it's S close. After days of sifting through all the BS, I don't know why we couldn't have the relevant 7 easy steps documented linked from the front page of clojure.org. To do so however still requires all the bleeding edge versions. My 2 cents. Tim On Jun 27, 3:58 pm, Greg g...@kinostudios.com wrote: This weekend I've been diving head-first into Clojure, and I've documented a lot of the sticking points that I've run into as a n00b. I'd like to share them with the community here, in the hopes that we might be able to improve the getting started experience for people considering Clojure: http://gregslepak.posterous.com/clojures-n00b-attraction-problem In the post I cover issues with: - Obtaining Clojure - Running Clojure - IDEs - Emacs/VIM - Build systems - Documentation Cheers, Greg -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Question: pmap + number of threads + number of cpus
Chris - Thanks for your response. I have a few follow up questions: toddg= (show (range 10)) === public final clojure.lang.LazySeq === ... so range returns a lazy seq toddg= (show (seq (range 10))) === public final clojure.lang.ChunkedCons === ... but seq'ing it returns a ChunkedCons Q: Why does range return a LazySeq whereas seq returns a ChunkedCons? I can see that these two classes are very different...but I don't really understand what's going on here. toddg= (show (doall (range 10))) === public final clojure.lang.LazySeq === Q: Since doall walks the entire seq, it almost seems like the lazy seq isn't a lazy seq anymore... I mean, if seq'ing a LazySeq returns a different type, then I'd almost expect doall to return a different type, too. One that's not lazy. toddg= (show list) === static clojure.lang.PersistentList$1 === toddg= (show (list (range 10))) === public clojure.lang.PersistentList === Q: So, is this the idiomatic way to convert the LazySeq or ChunkedCons to a Persistent (list|vector)? toddg= (show (into [] (range 10))) === public clojure.lang.PersistentVector === toddg= (show (into () (range 10))) === public clojure.lang.PersistentList === Q: Where are the clojure.lang classes documented? I see the classes in the source, but they do not appear to have javadocs. BTW - I really enjoyed your book. -Todd On 6/28/10 6:45 AM, Chouser wrote: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 7:01 PM, toddgt.greenwoodg...@gmail.com wrote: (running clojure 1.2 snapshot) Q1: Why does pmap use the number of available processors + 2? I would have thought it would just use the number of avail processors... I'm not entirely sure, but I think the idea is to prevent too much context-switching on each core. Perhaps +2 helps fill in gaps in the processor's pipelines or something. The agent pool for 'send' has a similar limit formula. Q2: Could someone clear up my misunderstanding of pmap w/ respect to the code snippets below? Pmap doesn't seem to be limiting the number of threads to the number of processors + 2... I've created an anon func that does't return, so I wouldn't expect the pmap step function to advance beyond 4 (I have 2 processors): #1: Limit pmap to # of processors -- [snip] -- just two threads running, as expected #2: Limit pmap to # of processors * 10 -- user= (pmap #(while true (do (println Thread: (.getId (Thread/ currentThread)) item: %)(Thread/sleep 500))) (range (* 10 (.availableProcessors (Runtime/getRuntime) Thread: Thread: 12 item: 0 (Thread: 25 item: 13 Thread: 24 item: 12 Thread: 23 item: 11 Thread: 22 item: 10 Thread: 21 item: 9 Thread: 20 item: 8 Thread: 19 item: 7 Thread: 18 item: 6 Thread: 17 item: 5 Thread: 16 item: 4 Thread: 15 item: 3 -- In this short snippet, you can see 4 threads running...expected? Range produces a chunked seq, which if my answer to Q1 is correct, I guess pmap isn't expecting. So pmap creates one 'future' per element, but instead of only doing this for procs+2 elements at a time, it does so for every element of the first chunk. If you use range of more than 32 elements, you'll see your example doesn't go beyond the first 32 (range's chunk size). ...or you can use a PersistentList instead of a range, which produces unchunked seqs, and see that it only uses procs+2 threads. --Chouser http://joyofclojure.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Life on the bleeding edge
On 29 June 2010 06:47, Mark Engelberg mark.engelb...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, that is disconcerting that clojure-contrib produces errors on Windows (sigh, it often feels like Windows is a second-class citizen when it comes to clojure), but that did the trick and allowed the build to complete. Thanks for the tip. Is there anything a clojure newbie with little JVM development experience (but a willingness to learn) can do to help with the Windows situation? From what I understand, Java itself is fine on Windows, so I assume this is a clojure-specific issue? Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 28 June 2010 23:13, Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: and more recently I had to figure out about.dotted.names and their meaning with respect to directory structures, in order to get require to find a second clj file. It's not complicated, but it's also not obvious to everyone first coming to Clojure. That's actually far more of a stumbling block than the classpath. In my experience, very few languages/environments tie directory structure and language identifiers (class name in Java, namespace in Clojure) together as closely as the Java/JVM environment. As in, if you change the filename, you have to change the namespace declaration as well - and vice versa. Or Clojure can't find your code, and you have no idea why :-( And yet, there's no reference that I can see to this fact in any of the Clojure tutorials. Not even in Programming Clojure (which is generally a great book). I could have missed something, of course - I wasn't looking for the information - but I've hit the issue a couple of times, so I suspect if I had seen anything, I would have remembered. Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 28 June 2010 22:41, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 28, 12:16 pm, Martin DeMello martindeme...@gmail.com wrote: It depends. I found the concepts pretty easy, since I have done a lot of functional programming, but when I was new to clojure I had a truly horrible time figuring out the various classpath issues needed to get things working. What is it about the classpath in particular that people find difficult? Is it that different from things like PYTHONPATH or RUBYLIB? The main differences I can see are: For me (and to be honest, I don't have any real problem with the *concept* of the classpath, just with some of the practicalities) it's the fact that by default, Clojure doesn't work. OK, that's overstating it - the issue is that clojure.jar isn't on the *default* classpath. This is hardly surprising, of course, but it does make it harder - you encounter the classpath right at the start, before you even get Clojure running. And unless you write your own wrapper, you keep having to deal with it (hmm, java -cp, now where did I put clojure, D:\Apps\Clojure\clojure.jar, clojure.main, oops no, this is the PC it's on the C drive. Or ...). I know you can set the global CLASSPATH, but that feels a bit too general - what else might it affect? The simple fix to that, of course, is to supply a small wrapper script with clojure. The response it's easy for you to write one yourself misses the point - we're talking about the out of the box experience. If clojure.org included a Download Clojure link that pointed at a zipfile containing clojure.jar, clojure-contrib.jar, and a wrapper script (well, two, one for Unix, one for Windows) which set classpath based on the location of the script and ran Clojure, then people could download that, unzip it anywhere, and go. It doesn't solve all the world's problems, but it sure simplifies the initial experience! For what it's worth, here's a trivial clj.bat for Windows: @echo off setlocal set CLASSPATH=%~dp0clojure.jar;%~dp0clojure-contrib.jar;%CLASSPATH% java clojure.main %* endlocal Add as much extra complexity as you like, but that's enough for a starter. Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents, since I'm a new guy with very limited Java experience. It is tricky getting Clojure to run, but not all of this is Clojure's fault. It took me 2 days to get it running on my desktop running ubuntu 10.04, with netbeans. I still have not been able to get the labrepl working with netbeans on my desktop. I've been working off and on getting Clojure to run on my laptop for a week now. My laptop had ubuntu 9.04, but there was some bug between ubuntu and java that was fixed in the later version. I upgraded to 10.04, now my touchpad and keyboard are not detected and I'm doing a complete reinstall... Netbeans isn't my ideal environment either. I'd prefer vim, but having an entire group dedicated to getting vim working with Clojure suggests it is not easy. Then there's the Java commandline compilation stuff, which I'd imagine is trickier than hitting compile in an IDE like Netbeans. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Conjure / Compojure Docs etc
An excellent post regarding compojure documentation was made by James Reeves on the compojure group June 26, 2010: http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/msg/da0de026bbbfbec1 In it, he discusses a strong desire to update the docs and provides links a person would want to use in the mean time. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Oleg oleg.richa...@gmail.com wrote: Dear John! I think that a lot of interesting about Compojure most used clojure web development library you can find there: http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/ See also http://github.com/briancarper/cow-blog this beautiful project from Brian Carper, which shows many interesting clojure and compojure development tricks. - Oleg On 28 июн, 00:56, john.holland jbholl...@gmail.com wrote: I've seen a lot of mentions of Compojure on the group. I found the documentation a little lacking. Am I missing something obvious? Also, Conjure (sort of Rails done in Clojure) seems very nice, is well documented, etc. But I don't see any mention of it. Is there any reason for it not to be popular? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: the joys of lisp
Erlang basically treats strings in one or two ways. 1) as pure binary data (useless for most cases) or 2) as a list of numbers. Imagine if clojure treated strings like this: (43, 22, 23, 32, 43) So when you print any list in Erlang it checks to make sure if all the numbers in the list are in a valid ascii range, if so it prints the data as a string, if not, it uses a list format like above. Yes, it is truly terrible. Timothy I haven't done any Erlang coding but I have heard various complaints in blogs etc that Erlang isn't great for string handling. Is that what you mean? Is Erlang a good or bad example of this? On Jun 27, 1:11 pm, Timothy Baldridge tbaldri...@gmail.com wrote: 1. a string/text type *cough * Erlang *cough * -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 29 June 2010 06:11, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 28, 9:14 pm, Michael Richter ttmrich...@gmail.com wrote: Ah. The Clojure community has already started down the road to Common Lisp-style, smugness-generated obscurity and disdain. Bravo! Well-played! Not at all. Nothing would make me happier than Clojure for Dummies and Wrox Professional Clojure books on the shelves of every Barnes Noble programming section. It's pained me to watch Python and Ruby far outpace the growth of any functional language in the last ten years. I'd love to stop looking for excuses to sneak things like Clojure under the radar at work and actually have a management mandate to use them. It is very, very hard to get a decent characterisation of newbies. It's too wide a range. You've lumped at least three different possibilities in the paragraph above alone: - Completely new programmers (Clojure for dummies) who need to learn things like what is recursion, how do I do the same thing 10 times, etc. - Experienced programmers in a scripting language (Python/Ruby) who know how to program and need to know how Clojure differs (and there's a whole subrange in here). - People who work in a Java Shop (sneak things like Clojure under the radar - I'm making assumptions here) and who work with the JVM regularly, but maybe have little or no experience with non-traditional languages. And by my own argument, there are many more possibilities. Each of these groups will want something different (or more likely, look for the best fit in what they can find, and ignore the bits they don't need). It's important to look at what people are actually asking for in each case, and not offer a single generic response to everyone (you'd offend me if you suggested I need Clojure for Dummies, but on the other hand, you'd look elitist to someone who had never programmed before if you launched straight into recursion or the advantages of immutability when a new programmer asked for help getting his Hello, World program to write its output 10 times...) The fact remains though that Clojure trades in heavy concepts. The syntax alone will simply be a non-starter for at least half the potential audience. Toss in concurrency and non-mutability and ubiquitous recursion which are tricky concepts no matter how cleanly exposed in the language. Only for certain audiences. And anyone can learn given a sympathetic teacher. What I wouldn't do is expect people to have to pick up multiple things at once. That's why, for people who are new to the language concepts in Clojure, I'd say you want a fast start environment which lets them get straight to writing (simple) code. Writing a hello world program, or your first recursive factorial, shouldn't be hard. java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main myprog.clj isn't hard, but a trivial script that wraps that as clj myprog.clj is a little less intimidating (and as a bonus, matches the expectations of people who have seen Python, Ruby, or any one of many others). And a straightforward if you like IDEs like Visual Studio, grab this package for now and you're off will help people who prefer an IDE. (They can make their own choice from the various options later, when they have more experience). As many posters have said in this thread, you really do have to have a decent grasp on Java to do real work in Clojure so you're already on the hook for two languages, one of which is a baroque and provincial monster. OK, that's a good point. For people who won't have an issue with Clojure's concepts (e.g. Lisp users, people with a wider range of programming experience, etc) this means the message is you want to learn Clojure - presumably because it's a high-level, sophisticated language - so you also need to learn Java (which, frankly, is pretty much the antithesis of a sophisticated language in many such people's minds). Maybe JVM experience can't be avoided. But it's a bitter pill to swallow for a certain class of newbies (and this is where I'd place myself) so why not try to make it easier? As some examples of what could be done: - Build a page of JVM concepts for non-Java programmers - Collect links to tutorial information on the key JVM concepts, looking particularly for material which is as language-agnostic as possible. The Jython, JRuby, Groovy, Scala people presumably also have this problem - why not share any generic links with them? - Promote clojure-like alternatives to Java tools (Leiningen vs Maven) for people with non-Java background. Work with such people to pick out places where the documentation of such tools assumes too much knowledge, and work to improve it (I'll help here!) - Give examples of how to use the more obvious benefits of the JVM-hosted environment: * How to find and use some of the huge range of 3rd party Java code out there (not interop, but finding things on the net, referencing them in your project, etc etc). * How to use the scalability of the JVM (hosting a Clojure app
Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
I really like Clojure, but as a complete n00b on Lisp languages, it is frustrating that I many times have to hunt high and low for documentation on basic stuff. Recently I saw a code snippet that showed that reduce takes an optional initial value, something I didn't know. When I see something new, I usually go back to the documentation or the book I might be reading to see if there is something more to learn about the current function, and to familiarize myself with the documentation. Well, to my surprise and frustration, I haven't found any place which documents that reduce takes an optional initial value. The first impression of the Clojure home page was a nice ordered set of pages of documentation, but I soon realized that listing all the functions with some textual explanation, just doesn't cut it. I usually end up googling for more conrete information that shows me how to actually use the functions. Please, dear very good Clojure creators, if you don't want Clojure to be another language for the specially initiated, good examples will take Clojure to the next level. People are just like Clojure, lazy. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Mike Meyer wrote: Yes emacs has built-in paren matching but emacs (like vi) is something that has to be learned, not all newcomers will know it, I don't want to force my students to use it (although I use it) But you're willing to force them to use some other editor? The ideal is to provide an editor that can be used without effort because it follows the standard interface conventions of the platform. That's what's so helpful about the editors in MCL, DrScheme, Processing, etc. Each has fancy stuff too, available through platform-conventional menus etc., but you don't need a lesson to do basic editing tasks (as you do with emacs and vi). See, I find this funny. Getting emacs to do clojure indentation is pretty much exactly as hard as getting clojure to use some third party library: dump clojure-mode.el onto your load-path, and then load it. Not true. I had several hiccups in the process of getting emacs clojure mode to work (maybe because I first tried an outdated way and then that left stuff that clashed the next thing I tried... there are a a couple of clojure-mode tools/installers out there) and so have others -- if you check the list archives you'll see that periodic calls for help with this. Considering that I've never seen an IDE that I thought had an editor that was good enough for real use, I find that statement highly subjective. What I meant here was pretty simple: New users can begin using the editor without any specific instructions about how to use the editor per se, and a semester later they can be writing substantial programs in the same editor without feeling like it's holding them back. In my experience that's true of the editors in many IDEs for many languages. Basically, you need someone to either a) write an editor for clojure, or b) provide instructions for setting up a suitable java-sourced editor (so it runs everywhere) to do clojure indentation, then bundle all that with clojure and clojure-contrib and a little bit of support? I think that several versions of nearly the right stuff are available but that the bundling/instructions could be made a little more clear for newcomers in every case that I know of (each case maybe needing a slightly different tweak). -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Life on the bleeding edge
On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:47 AM, Mark Engelberg wrote: Yes, that is disconcerting that clojure-contrib produces errors on Windows (sigh, it often feels like Windows is a second-class citizen when it comes to clojure), but that did the trick and allowed the build to complete. Thanks for the tip. So now, finally, I've had the chance to run my regular code under the equiv branch of clojure.jar. Across the board, I'm finding that my code runs 10-20% *slower* under the equiv branch of Clojure 1.2 than Clojure 1.1. The thing to compare equiv to is 1.2 master. You've said you are a heavy user of range, which may at the moment be slower in 1.2 than 1.1. Rich -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:55 AM, michele michelemen...@gmail.com wrote: I really like Clojure, but as a complete n00b on Lisp languages, it is frustrating that I many times have to hunt high and low for documentation on basic stuff. Recently I saw a code snippet that showed that reduce takes an optional initial value, something I didn't know. When I see something new, I usually go back to the documentation or the book I might be reading to see if there is something more to learn about the current function, and to familiarize myself with the documentation. Well, to my surprise and frustration, I haven't found any place which documents that reduce takes an optional initial value. The first impression of the Clojure home page was a nice ordered set of pages of documentation, but I soon realized that listing all the functions with some textual explanation, just doesn't cut it. I usually end up googling for more conrete information that shows me how to actually use the functions. Please, dear very good Clojure creators, if you don't want Clojure to be another language for the specially initiated, good examples will take Clojure to the next level. People are just like Clojure, lazy. True, while we wait for someone to actually build such a site I recommend that you ask your questions on: 1) The mailing list 2) #clojure channel at irc.freenode.net 3) StackOverflow In all three places you'll get nice friendly answers pronto. Two other useful things at the REPL are (doc function-name) and (source function-name). David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
2010/6/29 Jared tri...@gmail.com: I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents, since I'm a new guy with very limited Java experience. It is tricky getting Clojure to run, but not all of this is Clojure's fault. It took me 2 days to get it running on my desktop running ubuntu 10.04, with netbeans. I still have not been able to get the labrepl working with netbeans on my desktop. I've been working off and on getting Clojure to run on my laptop for a week now. My laptop had ubuntu 9.04, but there was some bug between ubuntu and java that was fixed in the later version. I upgraded to 10.04, now my touchpad and keyboard are not detected and I'm doing a complete reinstall... Do you have details on what made you spend 2 days for having an enclojure running environment ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 29, 5:50 am, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: If folks find the Java stack intimidating, maybe Clojure isn't for them? Lots of language run on the JVM and they all require some basic knowledge of classpaths, build tools and existing IDEs such as Ecliper, NetBeans, IntelliJ etc. If folks are new to all that, I don't think it's Clojure's job to teach them - there's plenty of literature out there about the JVM environment and tools. I've programmed Java for a while, and frankly, the standard Java build tools suck if you want to get anything done quickly. That's one of the reasons IDEs are so popular in Java - once you figured them out, at least they keep your dependencies in check without having to write oodles of XML. Anyway, you don't need that in Clojure. What I want is open an editor, and start banging out code interactively. From what I've seen, leining is probably the best way to set that up. I much prefer Emacs/SLIME to any Java IDE. My conclusion: whoever said above that there appears to be two development/build-tool preferences based more or less on Java vs Ruby/ Perl/Python developers is right IMO. And I'd probably recommend leiningen to any newbie not coming from a Java background. Sure you can write a few batch files to start your repl etc, but I think leiningen is probably doing things the right way if you just want to get started using whatever editor you like (plus, it supports Emacs/ SLIME out of the box, which is nice for Lisp programmers who've probably already got the whole Emacs side of things set up correctly anyway). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
Hi, On Jun 29, 11:55 am, michele michelemen...@gmail.com wrote: Well, to my surprise and frustration, I haven't found any place which documents that reduce takes an optional initial value. http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/branch-1.1.x/index.html In particular: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/branch-1.1.x/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/reduce (or alternatively: (doc reduce) at the repl) What does this leave open on questions? (Granted: reduce is rather well documented, there are worse examples.) Please, dear very good Clojure creators, if you don't want Clojure to be another language for the specially initiated, good examples will take Clojure to the next level. Uh. Sky is falling again. But your are right. Nice examples would be a nice addition. It's the first thing I'm looking for, when learning something new. I'm not sure they should go to the reference docs, though. People are just like Clojure, lazy. Why do I support lazy people in my spare time? I'm an idiot. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Protocols
On Jun 29, 2010, at 3:54 AM, Mark Engelberg wrote:
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com
wrote:
There are no extension points built on protocols in Clojure yet.
Delivering
protocols is step one, re-architecting the core abstractions in
terms of
protocols is still to come.
Rich
So how hard it would it be right now, for example, to implement in
Clojure a deftype that responds to all the functions a sorted map
responds to?
I started looking through the source code to try to figure out what
interfaces I'd need to override, but it seemed like an overwhelming
mixture of Clojure and Java interfaces, and very difficult to get
right without the ability to use the existing abstract base classes
that are in place (AFn, ASeq, APersistentMap, etc.). For example, it
seems like to implement IFn, you'd need to manually write out cases
for the first twenty arities.
Would you recommend waiting until the core abstractions are
re-architected before tackling something like this, or is there an
easy way to do this I'm not seeing?
To start, you could look at the ancestors:
(ancestors (class (sorted-map)))
#{java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lang.IMeta
java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.Associative
java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.Reversible
clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Runnable
clojure.lang.APersistentMap clojure.lang.Sorted clojure.lang.Counted
clojure.lang.IObj java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IFn
clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.IPersistentMap java.util.Map
clojure.lang.AFn}
You may or may not want to implement all of these.
To get an idea of what is involved, look at emit-defrecord in
core_deftype.clj.
Yes, in deftype-land we can't use the abstract bases.
I'm not sure it is every going to be made 'easy' to correctly support
so many abstractions, but it is certainly tractable, and not something
one needs to do often. emit-defrecord implements a dozen interfaces in
about 60 lines of heavy lifting (and as a macro to boot).
As to whether or not you want to wait, that's up to you. These things
are likely to change, but there are people who implement the
interfaces right now with great success.
Rich
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Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going very well at this point. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks, -Lee -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Conjure / Compojure Docs etc
Unfortunately, I'm not very good at promoting Conjure. Though there does seem to be more interest recently. Also, I've some complaints about Conjure not working like other Clojure libraries. This will hopefully be addressed in the next release which breaks Conjure up into a few jar files and adds a Leiningen plugin. If you're familiar with Leiningen, to add Conjure, simply add the core library to your dependency list and the plugin to your dev dependency list, update your dependencies and you're good to go. Conjure 0.7 is in feature freeze now and I expect to have a final release sometime next week. -Matt Courtney On Jun 27, 4:56 pm, john.holland jbholl...@gmail.com wrote: I've seen a lot of mentions of Compojure on the group. I found the documentation a little lacking. Am I missing something obvious? Also, Conjure (sort of Rails done in Clojure) seems very nice, is well documented, etc. But I don't see any mention of it. Is there any reason for it not to be popular? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Question: pmap + number of threads + number of cpus
Hi, On Jun 29, 6:56 am, Todd t.greenwoodg...@gmail.com wrote: Q: Why does range return a LazySeq whereas seq returns a ChunkedCons? I can see that these two classes are very different...but I don't really understand what's going on here. seq returns whatever is contained in the lazy-seq: user= (type (lazy-seq [1 2 3])) clojure.lang.LazySeq user= (type (seq (lazy-seq [1 2 3]))) clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq user= (type (seq (lazy-seq (cons 1 nil clojure.lang.PersistentList LazySeq is a container which stores information on *how* to obtain the next steps of the sequence. Once realised, it stores the result. Which already points to... Q: Since doall walks the entire seq, it almost seems like the lazy seq isn't a lazy seq anymore... I mean, if seq'ing a LazySeq returns a different type, then I'd almost expect doall to return a different type, too. One that's not lazy. Running through the sequence with doall will realise the contents of the sequence. You still have a LazySeq, but the computation stored in it is now replaced by the actual result of the computation. Q: So, is this the idiomatic way to convert the LazySeq or ChunkedCons to a Persistent (list|vector)? For vector: (vec your-seq); for list: (list* your-seq). Although this is not really interesting. The list will just act like the sequence. So just calling doall is sufficient in case you have to get rid of the laziness. If you need the properties of the vector, there is vec. Q: Where are the clojure.lang classes documented? I see the classes in the source, but they do not appear to have javadocs. You should treat the underlying classes as implementation detail. Hope this helps. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Ok, so now, please take a look at this video (it's just 3 minutes), and you'll get a grasp at how easy it is to bootstrap an Eclipse based clojure environment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0ZjBMIQS8 Works with eclipse 3.5 and eclipse 3.6. I'm not claiming Eclipse / counterclockwise is better than IDE X or Y, but that I've rarely have complaints in the ml concerning installation problems. Oh, and the video, while a little bit outdated, shows a bunch of already existing features in Eclipse / Counterclockwise : the namespace navigator, the clojure file outline, navigating from the namespace navigator and the file containing the definition of the var, etc. And to be totally clear, no there is currently no history in the REPL, that's planned on our TODO list. :-) -- Laurent 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going very well at this point. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks, -Lee -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
The video must be seen in HD if you want to have a chance to see anything on it. It has no sound, it's not a problem with your computer. 2010/6/29 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com: Ok, so now, please take a look at this video (it's just 3 minutes), and you'll get a grasp at how easy it is to bootstrap an Eclipse based clojure environment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0ZjBMIQS8 Works with eclipse 3.5 and eclipse 3.6. I'm not claiming Eclipse / counterclockwise is better than IDE X or Y, but that I've rarely have complaints in the ml concerning installation problems. Oh, and the video, while a little bit outdated, shows a bunch of already existing features in Eclipse / Counterclockwise : the namespace navigator, the clojure file outline, navigating from the namespace navigator and the file containing the definition of the var, etc. And to be totally clear, no there is currently no history in the REPL, that's planned on our TODO list. :-) -- Laurent 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going very well at this point. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks, -Lee -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: State of Clojure web development
If I had a full-stack, well-documented clojure framework, I'd jump to that. Have you looked at Conjure? http://github.com/macourtney/Conjure Docs: http://wiki.github.com/macourtney/Conjure/ It's not as fully featured as Django, but it's a good start and it's in Clojure. Conjure doesn't have an autogenerated admin section, but you can get some authentication and admin through the simple- authentication plugin. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to update it for the latest version of Conjure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: the joys of lisp
Steve Molitor stevemoli...@gmail.com wrote: The Python approach leads to more readable code: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/readability.html The two cases he sites do not apply to Clojure: More accurately, the problem being analyzed (a variable changing to a bad value) can't happen in clojure. It has to have been bound with a bad value. The first case is a function that is allowed to change the value of a variable passed into it. Variables are immutable in Clojure so you can't write the dangerous 'inc' function he describes. You can't change the value of a variable passed to a function in Python either, but you can pass a mutable object to a function and have the function modify the object, which is close to the same thing. Clojure is much more readable than Python in this regard. You might also note that lisp behaves the same way as python - at least outside of macros. As noted in the last paragraph, the paper isn't about lisp vs other languages, its about readability vs power as terseness. The examples just happened to pick on a feature heavily associated with lisp. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: State of Clojure web development
1. Have you written, or are you writing, a web application that uses Clojure? What does it do? We are currently writing a web interface for the project I'm on. The project, IMSMA, keeps track of landmines in war-torn countries so humanitarian efforts can clean them up. The main program is a java swing application, but they wanted a stripped down web app for data entry. Conjure was an obvious solution since it allowed us, through Clojure, to reuse much of our code from the swing app and gave us a very quick and easy way to build the web app. 2. Which libraries or frameworks are you using? Which versions? We're using Conjure (of course). It's an older version, probably a 0.4 or 0.5, I'm not sure which. Unfortunately, Conjure has changed drastically since then and would require a major rewrite of our code to catch up. I may try to do that, but after our first release when I have some time to refactor and clean up code. 3. What made you choose Clojure to develop web applications in? What are the strengths of Clojure web development? One of the biggest strengths for us is the java interop of Clojure. Without it we couldn't reuse much of our java code, and would have put us way behind. We could have used JRuby, but we felt Clojure is a much better language which allows us to write even less code to do what we want. 4. What do you think are the current weaknesses of web development in Clojure? What could be improved? Deployment has been a problem. I hacked together an installer for our app, which sets up our Conjure app as a windows service. I'm thinking of creating a Leiningen plugin for it, but it would require izPack which is very hard to use. We've also had some trouble with support with java script. It's there, but we're doing some crazy stuff with it, and even JQuery is having a hard time. I'm not sure what can be done there. 5. Anything else you want to comment on? I see a lot of people asking about a full stack web framework, but not finding Conjure for some reason. I understand for a good number of people in the Clojure community, Compojure and supporting libraries are what they want and need. However, Conjure does have a niche, and I would like to see more people using it. Is there anything I should be doing to get more people interested? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Tim Robinson tim.blacks...@gmail.com wrote: * Most n00bs want a hello world in an application output (via script or compojure). Not in a repl. The repl is a tool to get you there. In order to do this users should really have a 7 step guide on leinington I happen to think that they're wanting the wrong thing. Even so, you don't need lein or ant or maven to get there. One of the joys of interpreted languages is losing the middle step in the edit- compile-test cycle. (Yes, I know that clojure does a compile; so does every production interpreter. This isn't something to bother beginners with.) Taking that away from them is wrong, and leads them away from the part of the lisp way known as exploratory programming. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: State of Clojure web development
Here's the Conjure scaffold controller in 4 lines: (ns controllers.message-controller (:use [conjure.controller.base]) (:require [controllers.template-controller :as template- controller])) (copy-actions :template) And, you can still add any actions you want, or override the action which are already there. -Matt Courtney On Jun 25, 10:33 am, Luc Préfontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Were not using Clojure yet for our Web based GUIs. The main reason being that we jumped on Rails last year. Most of our needs are to display/edit database data and the ActiveScaffold plugin allows us to write a controller in 20 lines. We do not need to write forms, it's all done through partial renderings provided by the plugin. We just provide layouts and customize CSS stuf. We will give a closer look to Compojure this year and see if can achieve the same code ratio somehow. Luc P Sent from my iPod On 2010-06-24, at 12:27, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: I don't use Clojure for web development and I thought sharing why could be useful too. For web development, my favourite tool is Django. It comes as a fullstack framework which means I have everything I need out of the box. Templates, caching, ORM, a kick-ass autogenerated admin section, cross-domain request forgery protection etc. and the documentation is really top notch. I'd rather have Clojure than Python but all the goodness that Django provides is such a time saver that I feel I'd lose too much time with Clojure. If I had a full-stack, well-documented clojure framework, I'd jump to that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure distribution (like what ubuntu is for linux)
Well it looks like I have some competition ;) I haven't tried either yet so I can't really comment, but I like the idea of creating and integrated package manager and repl utility. Clj also seems nice in the way it integrates with clojars.org. At the moment, dj uses several maven repositories including clojars.org for grabbing jar resources. The main difference between dj and clj from what I see is I bit the bullet and wrote my own dependency tool instead of using leiningen/maven. Its definitely tractable to write commands that make it easy to upload jars and include other integration features. Also note that dj has a different approach to package management in terms of installing compared to clj. dj treats its local repository as a cache and downloads packages on the fly (I can also implement different garbage collection type features where unused dependencies can be cleared out automatically to save space). I can't think of a use case where the user would want to download a certain package without it already being downloaded by the information specified in the project.clj file or pom file. I can imagine the user wanting to pretend to download all the dependencies to determine what packages would be downloaded, I implemented that as dj deps project name. dj will download only the pom files from the jars and calculate the dependencies from those. Best, Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: reify bug?
You need the this arg and I find you need to hint the exact types when reifying java interfaces; (seq (.list (java.io.File. .) (reify java.io.FilenameFilter (^boolean accept [_ ^java.io.File f ^String s] (not (.startsWith s .)) ... works for me. - Rgds, Adrian -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Thanks Laurent. Is there automatic Clojure indentation in Counterclockwise now? I played with it a couple of months ago and saw a lot to like, and if I recall correctly a lack of indentation support was one of the main reasons I kept looking for alternatives. I think I was also a little confused by some of Eclipse's overall complexity and terminology (e.g. perspectives) coming from a non-Java world, and maybe by some platform-related mismatches between the instructions and what I had to do (in Mac OS X) which, though minor, can still be confusing when starting from zero. I think I could get over these latter issues if there's indentation now. Thanks so much for providing this tool! -Lee On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:49 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: The video must be seen in HD if you want to have a chance to see anything on it. It has no sound, it's not a problem with your computer. 2010/6/29 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com: Ok, so now, please take a look at this video (it's just 3 minutes), and you'll get a grasp at how easy it is to bootstrap an Eclipse based clojure environment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0ZjBMIQS8 Works with eclipse 3.5 and eclipse 3.6. I'm not claiming Eclipse / counterclockwise is better than IDE X or Y, but that I've rarely have complaints in the ml concerning installation problems. Oh, and the video, while a little bit outdated, shows a bunch of already existing features in Eclipse / Counterclockwise : the namespace navigator, the clojure file outline, navigating from the namespace navigator and the file containing the definition of the var, etc. And to be totally clear, no there is currently no history in the REPL, that's planned on our TODO list. :-) -- Laurent 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going very well at this point. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks, -Lee -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359
Re: reify bug?
Sorry, you don't need the type hists just the this arg... (seq (.list (java.io.File. .) (reify java.io.FilenameFilter (accept [_ f s] (not (.startsWith s .)) On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Adrian Cuthbertson adrian.cuthbert...@gmail.com wrote: You need the this arg and I find you need to hint the exact types when reifying java interfaces; (seq (.list (java.io.File. .) (reify java.io.FilenameFilter (^boolean accept [_ ^java.io.File f ^String s] (not (.startsWith s .)) ... works for me. - Rgds, Adrian -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:31:45 -0500 Savanni D'Gerinel sava...@alyra.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Along those lines, why is the apply necessary? More clearly, and I encountered this with a different block of code earlier today, repeat returns a lazy sequence. Str does nothing to evaluate that sequences, so (str (repeat ...)) returns a lazy sequence. str applys .toString to it's arguments, and then concatenates the results together. .toString of a lazy sequence is an internal token that you can use to infer it's from a lazy sequence, and that's about it. Why does (apply str (repeat ...)) evaluate the sequence? The documentation for apply does not mention that it will do so. apply turns the values in sequence into arguments to a call to str. For example, (apply str [a b c]) evaluates (str a b c). Since function arguments are passed by value (you can't apply a macro), the lazy sequence has to be evaluated out to the end. Generally I am having a lot of trouble with sequences because I am never clear on when a lazy sequence will be evaluated strictly. Sorry if this was already answered; I found it and realized I hadn't seen an answer yet. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Can't send from agent error handler?
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Shawn Hoover shawn.hoo...@gmail.com wrote: My first thought for an agent error handler was to send the exception to another agent. user= (let [handler (agent nil) a (agent 42 :error-handler (fn [_ ex] (send handler (fn [_] (println ex)] (send a (fn [_] (throw (Exception. bad news (await a) �...@a) 42 ;; No println! user= Is this the way it should work? I saw some stuff about it in the wiki [1], but it's hard to tell what was decided explicitly. Thanks for the report. Ticket is here: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/390 Please try out the patch there and see if it works and/or causes other problems. Thanks. --Chouser http://joyofclojure.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
Uh. Sky is falling again. But your are right. Nice examples would be a nice addition. It's the first thing I'm looking for, when learning something new. I'm not sure they should go to the reference docs, though. Ruby is an example of a language that does have some examples in the reference docs and i think it helps a lot. Regards, Jimmy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Newb Question
Hi people! Paul, yes! but... The apply and str evaluations in (apply str (repeat n text)) are lazy? I guess the result could be a big string. Isn't it? Angel Java Lopez http://www.ajlopez.com http://twitter.com/ajlopez On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2010 20:24, Angel Java Lopez ajlopez2...@gmail.com wrote: Hi people! Any way to produce a lazy seq of chars, that prints as a string, based on two parameters, n (number of repeats), text (text to repeat)? Then, something like (myrepeat 100 superdupertext) could be implemented without a big processing or concatenation. The built in repeat is lazy: user= (doc repeat) - clojure.core/repeat ([x] [n x]) Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs. Paul. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Can't send from agent error handler?
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 6:51 AM, ka sancha...@gmail.com wrote: I'm also facing the same problem - (let [handler (agent 50) a (agent 42 :error-handler (fn [_ ex] (do (println Inside agent a error handler fn (Thread/ currentThread)) (send handler (fn [_] (do (println ex (Thread/currentThread))) 60)) (println Inside agent a error handler fn - after sending to the handler agent) (await handler) (println CODE DOESN'T REACH HERE ??) (println State of handler agent: @handler] (send a (fn [_] (println Inside agent a function (Thread/ currentThread)) (throw (Exception. bad news (Thread/sleep 1000) ;(println Errors with a: (agent-error a)) ;(println Errors with handler: (agent-error handler)) (shutdown-agents) (println Errors with a: (agent-error a)) (println Errors with handler: (agent-error handler)) (println @a) (println @handler)) With the patch in http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/390 your example will get a little further, but it has another problem. The error handler is still executed serially with agent action, as if it was itself an agent action, but you may not use 'await' inside an agent action. Using await there throws an exception, but since you're already in an error handler, that exception is silently thrown away and you still won't see the CODE DOESN'T REACH HERE message. If you wrap your await call in its own exception handler, you'll be able to see that's what's going on. --Chouser http://joyofclojure.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 20:31, Savanni D'Gerinel sava...@alyra.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Along those lines, why is the apply necessary? More clearly, and I encountered this with a different block of code earlier today, repeat returns a lazy sequence. Str does nothing to evaluate that sequences, so (str (repeat ...)) returns a lazy sequence. Why does (apply str (repeat ...)) evaluate the sequence? The documentation for apply does not mention that it will do so. apply fully realizes the argument sequence it's applying the function to. Even in cases like this: (defn foo [ more] ...) (apply foo (range 1)) This fully realizes the (range 1) before calling foo, which is wasteful if foo is written to consume more incrementally. I've run into this trouble with concat, when I've wanted a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the sequences produced by a list comprehension: (apply concat (for [n (range 1000)] (range 100))) Concat gets passed a fully realized sequence of 1000 lazy sequences of 100 integers. There may be some well-considered reasons why apply behaves this way, but I do wish that functions like concat provided a variant that took a single sequence of sequences as its argument, rather than a variable number of sequences. // Ben -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:56:09 -0400 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Mike Meyer wrote: Yes emacs has built-in paren matching but emacs (like vi) is something that has to be learned, not all newcomers will know it, I don't want to force my students to use it (although I use it) But you're willing to force them to use some other editor? The ideal is to provide an editor that can be used without effort because it follows the standard interface conventions of the platform. That's what's so helpful about the editors in MCL, DrScheme, Processing, etc. Each has fancy stuff too, available through platform-conventional menus etc., but you don't need a lesson to do basic editing tasks (as you do with emacs and vi). So you don't want one editor, you want a three (mac/windows/unix). Or four (mac/windows/gnome/kde). Or maybe five (mac/windows/gnome/kde/wmiietall). Actually, have you looked at jedit? It's the only free Java editor that isn't trying to be an IDE. See, I find this funny. Getting emacs to do clojure indentation is pretty much exactly as hard as getting clojure to use some third party library: dump clojure-mode.el onto your load-path, and then load it. Not true. I had several hiccups in the process of getting emacs clojure mode to work (maybe because I first tried an outdated way and then that left stuff that clashed the next thing I tried... there are a a couple of clojure-mode tools/installers out there) and so have others -- if you check the list archives you'll see that periodic calls for help with this. Um, I've been watching the list for quite a while, and have never seen anyone with problems with just clojure-mode. What I have seen are people having problems with getting slime and swank set up and running in clojure-mode, but you don't need that to get smart clojure indenting. All you need is the clojure-mode.el file and requiring it. Of course, that clojure-mode.el encourages you to install clojure, slime, and swank-clojure doesn't help, but I had it doing clojure-specific indentation before starting down that rathole. Considering that I've never seen an IDE that I thought had an editor that was good enough for real use, I find that statement highly subjective. What I meant here was pretty simple: New users can begin using the editor without any specific instructions about how to use the editor per se, and a semester later they can be writing substantial programs in the same editor without feeling like it's holding them back. In my experience that's true of the editors in many IDEs for many languages. I think you're asking to much for the first step. They don't need clojure-specific indentation; they just need a simple-minded autoindent and paren matching. Those should be available in pretty much any editor. Clojure-specific is nice, but they can correct it by hand trivially. That won't get them to the second step, though. To me, that means you have to have an editor that's tightly coupled to a REPL. I need to be able to send a file from an edit buffer to the REPL, or send a marked region of text in the buffer, or the definition surrounding the point, and then type text at the reply to test the just evaluated code. All without having to touch the mouse. Here's where individual preferences comes to the fore - some people will want to do everything via the mouse, some won't want to touch the little rodent, some will want doc strings available in the editors, others will want them in the repl, yet others will want them in an external document. All of which is why I think that starting with your favorite text editor with paren matching and auto-indent is the right way to get started - at least for people who aren't learning to use a computer for the first time. Basically, you need someone to either a) write an editor for clojure, or b) provide instructions for setting up a suitable java-sourced editor (so it runs everywhere) to do clojure indentation, then bundle all that with clojure and clojure-contrib and a little bit of support? I think that several versions of nearly the right stuff are available but that the bundling/instructions could be made a little more clear for newcomers in every case that I know of (each case maybe needing a slightly different tweak). If that's the case, is there some reason you haven't created this? I'd be more than happy to provide web space for it if you need it. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from
Exceptions
Dear all, Is there a high level facility in Clojure to create your own exceptions? I know you can use genclass/proxies and extend Throwable/Exception but it seems very (too?) close to the host language whereas the concept of exceptions is shared among most potential hosts. It would seems reasonable to have a few macros (defexception, deferror, defthrowable for example...) to abstract away from the JVM (for clarity and portability) while keeping the same underlying mechanism (for compatibility with the host). Has anyone tried anything like that? Is there a big problem with such an approach? Best regards, Nicolas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: usage examples in clojure api docs
Hi people! I love PHP documentation http://www.php.net/manual/en/ and its function reference: http://www.php.net/manual/en/funcref.php Each function has a dedicated page, with detailed description, initial examples. And visitors can add new examples or limit cases. Example: http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.array-combine.php And the documentation can be built in .pdf and other formats. I never need an irc channel or send an email in a list to understand a function. Maybe for other topics, but not to understand a function. That's the level of function documentation to match, I guess. And it's pretty good in the non-function part: good explanation of language and its usage. Angel Java Lopez http://www.ajlopez.com http://twitter.com/ajlopez On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:06 AM, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: Several people have suggested that usage examples in the docs would be helpful and this is something I often find myself wishing for. Are patches introducing examples welcomed by the core team? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
Hi people! Hmmm (str (repeat )) doesn't concatenate the repeated values. As (str (f o o)) doesn't return foo, it returns (f o o) the stringified sequence. But (apply str '(f o o)) returns foo, as expected in the initial question. Angel Java Lopez http://www.ajlopez.com http://twitter.com/ajlopez On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Savanni D'Gerinel sava...@alyra.orgwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Along those lines, why is the apply necessary? More clearly, and I encountered this with a different block of code earlier today, repeat returns a lazy sequence. Str does nothing to evaluate that sequences, so (str (repeat ...)) returns a lazy sequence. Why does (apply str (repeat ...)) evaluate the sequence? The documentation for apply does not mention that it will do so. Generally I am having a lot of trouble with sequences because I am never clear on when a lazy sequence will be evaluated strictly. - -- Savanni On 06/28/2010 01:14 PM, Nurullah Akkaya wrote: Hi José, user= (apply str (repeat 3 code)) codecodecode will give you what you want, if we break it down, user= (repeat 3 code) (code code code) repeat will give you a sequence of xs, since you don't know the length of the sequence at compile time we apply str to the sequence (apply str '(code code code)) which basically expands to, (str code code code) then you get, codecodecode -- Nurullah Akkaya http://nakkaya.com 2010/6/27 José Luis Romero tangu...@gmail.com: Hi! I am learning the core of clojure, and so far, I am loving it. But I am not a lisp programmer (python, java, among others), but never functional programming. I am practicing with codingbat.com, coding the exercises on clojure. I am stuck with loops. I want to concatenate n times a string. For example, given the parameters 3 and code the output will be codecodecode. How can I do a loop in order to get this output. I know that this is a very newb question, any help will be appreciated. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwo6pEACgkQZIuDAZ4avD+JiQCgkiZg4ADytAL7ujIjq3S/73Up msoAn0Z28vIwjTUXZb9bAN5o8LyDBUja =I0Ni -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 29, 2010, at 10:26 AM, Mike Meyer wrote: Actually, have you looked at jedit? It's the only free Java editor that isn't trying to be an IDE. Thanks for this tip. I didn't know about jedit. I've grabbed it and see that it has a built-in Clojure mode. Promising! Its idea of proper Clojure indentation seems pretty nutty to me (you may have to view this in a monospace font to see how odd it is): (defn bar check out the formatting of the let and the placement of the last line [] (let [x 1 y 2 z 3] (list x y z))) It gets weirder for some of my more complicated definitions. But maybe I can tweak the settings to get something more reasonable (I've only tried for a minute so far). Um, I've been watching the list for quite a while, and have never seen anyone with problems with just clojure-mode. Well I had trouble with this and I think I posted about it and that others did too. But in any event emacs isn't what I'm looking for. I think you're asking to much for the first step. They don't need clojure-specific indentation; they just need a simple-minded autoindent and paren matching. Those should be available in pretty much any editor. Clojure-specific is nice, but they can correct it by hand trivially. Over many years of teaching Lisp to beginners the single most effective debugging advice I've given is first auto-indent it and then the error may become obvious. Of course that works only for certain syntax errors but that covers a lot of territory for beginners, and even helps me as a Lisper with many years of experience. Correcting indentation by hand is easy when your code is correct and you know what you're doing. Language-specific indentation is really helpful when it's not already correct or you're just learning. I think that several versions of nearly the right stuff are available but that the bundling/instructions could be made a little more clear for newcomers in every case that I know of (each case maybe needing a slightly different tweak). If that's the case, is there some reason you haven't created this? I'd be more than happy to provide web space for it if you need it. Because I don't know how, and I'm writing here because I know that many people here do know how and have already done 90+% of the work. I can write you a quantum computer simulator or an AI search engine or a genetic programming engine or an ecological simulator or many other things in many languages including Lisp and Clojure, but writing and packaging cross-platform editors and development tools just isn't in my bag of tricks right now. I know it could be, and maybe some day I'll acquire those skills, but many others are already quite good at this stuff and have gone to considerable effort to create environments that provide almost all of what I want. So I figure it's a service to give my perspective on what small tweaks would make their efforts reach a wider audience. -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
Hi, On Jun 29, 4:24 pm, B Smith-Mannschott bsmith.o...@gmail.com wrote: This fully realizes the (range 1) before calling foo, which is wasteful if foo is written to consume more incrementally. I've run into this trouble with concat, when I've wanted a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the sequences produced by a list comprehension: (apply concat (for [n (range 1000)] (range 100))) Concat gets passed a fully realized sequence of 1000 lazy sequences of 100 integers. I don't think that this is true. Otherwise the following wouldn't work: user= (defn take-5 [ more] (take 5 more)) #'user/take-5 user= (apply take-5 (iterate inc 0)) (0 1 2 3 4) iterate creates an infinite sequence. So if the problem was apply, the second call should not return. If more than necessary is realised, I suspect some effect with chunked seqs. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Exceptions
Nicolas, Check out error-kit in contrib. Brenton On Jun 29, 7:26 am, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Is there a high level facility in Clojure to create your own exceptions? I know you can use genclass/proxies and extend Throwable/Exception but it seems very (too?) close to the host language whereas the concept of exceptions is shared among most potential hosts. It would seems reasonable to have a few macros (defexception, deferror, defthrowable for example...) to abstract away from the JVM (for clarity and portability) while keeping the same underlying mechanism (for compatibility with the host). Has anyone tried anything like that? Is there a big problem with such an approach? Best regards, Nicolas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Apply/Laziness question (was Re: Newb Question)
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 17:24, Meikel Brandmeyer m...@kotka.de wrote: Hi, On Jun 29, 4:24 pm, B Smith-Mannschott bsmith.o...@gmail.com wrote: This fully realizes the (range 1) before calling foo, which is wasteful if foo is written to consume more incrementally. I've run into this trouble with concat, when I've wanted a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the sequences produced by a list comprehension: (apply concat (for [n (range 1000)] (range 100))) Concat gets passed a fully realized sequence of 1000 lazy sequences of 100 integers. I don't think that this is true. Otherwise the following wouldn't work: user= (defn take-5 [ more] (take 5 more)) #'user/take-5 user= (apply take-5 (iterate inc 0)) (0 1 2 3 4) iterate creates an infinite sequence. So if the problem was apply, the second call should not return. If more than necessary is realised, I suspect some effect with chunked seqs. There's nothing quite as powerful as a good counter example. You're quite right. I guess what I'd observed at the time I discovered this must have been the effect of chunking. At the time, I did attempt the understand the implementation of apply and through I was seeing the args sequence being realized, but I guess I must have misunderstood the code. // Ben -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Life on the bleeding edge
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: Is there anything a clojure newbie with little JVM development experience (but a willingness to learn) can do to help with the Windows situation? From what I understand, Java itself is fine on Windows, so I assume this is a clojure-specific issue? Paul. Tom mentioned to me a few weeks ago that he'd love to have some help getting autodoc to work on Windows, and that he'd be willing to supervise someone who had the time to make the changes. That might be a great way to dive in! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
+1 if you make the function not just for vector but for any seqs. That way of we need special BioSeqs someday... Yes, I concur. I think that the default in-memory data format for (DNA, RNA, Protein sequences) should be a vector, but that the functions should take sequences. Mind you in some cases, we might want to exploit transient vectors for better performance. Rob -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
If you want to open-source it, one way of learning and keeping other involved would be to have a repository where you put what you do. Other can look and comment at first, and maybe commit too when you think your work will be ready for more commiters. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:06 PM, jandot jan.ae...@gmail.com wrote: I've started using clojure for my bioinformatics work, but it is still *very* early days. Will try to become more proficient in it, but slowly building up a toolkit for myself might just be the seed for bioclojure. Have no idea to what extent clojure is used at the moment in the field. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: bioinformatics toolkit in clojure: what would that look like?
I would recommend Github as a hosting-service for the code. It's free, collaboration with others is extreme cool and most other notable clojure projects (and even clojure itself) is hosted there. On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to open-source it, one way of learning and keeping other involved would be to have a repository where you put what you do. Other can look and comment at first, and maybe commit too when you think your work will be ready for more commiters. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:06 PM, jandot jan.ae...@gmail.com wrote: I've started using clojure for my bioinformatics work, but it is still *very* early days. Will try to become more proficient in it, but slowly building up a toolkit for myself might just be the seed for bioclojure. Have no idea to what extent clojure is used at the moment in the field. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Moritz Ulrich Programmer, Student, Almost normal Guy http://www.google.com/profiles/ulrich.moritz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:15:40 -0400 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: On Jun 29, 2010, at 10:26 AM, Mike Meyer wrote: Actually, have you looked at jedit? It's the only free Java editor that isn't trying to be an IDE. Thanks for this tip. I didn't know about jedit. I've grabbed it and see that it has a built-in Clojure mode. Promising! Its idea of proper Clojure indentation seems pretty nutty to me (you may have to view this in a monospace font to see how odd it is): (defn bar check out the formatting of the let and the placement of the last line [] (let [x 1 y 2 z 3] (list x y z))) It gets weirder for some of my more complicated definitions. But maybe I can tweak the settings to get something more reasonable (I've only tried for a minute so far). The cross-platform editor is the only thing for the package you want that I couldn't just grab off the net. Unfortunately, the version that installs from ports locally doesn't have a clojure mode. I think you're asking to much for the first step. They don't need clojure-specific indentation; they just need a simple-minded autoindent and paren matching. Those should be available in pretty much any editor. Clojure-specific is nice, but they can correct it by hand trivially. Over many years of teaching Lisp to beginners the single most effective debugging advice I've given is first auto-indent it and then the error may become obvious. Of course that works only for certain syntax errors but that covers a lot of territory for beginners, and even helps me as a Lisper with many years of experience. Correcting indentation by hand is easy when your code is correct and you know what you're doing. Language-specific indentation is really helpful when it's not already correct or you're just learning. I use paren matching for that. Go to the end of the function, and walk through the close parens, checking that they match what I think they should. Repeat for each line that ends in more than two parens. It's more work than the autoindent, but provides more data. If that's the case, is there some reason you haven't created this? I'd be more than happy to provide web space for it if you need it. Because I don't know how, and I'm writing here because I know that many people here do know how and have already done 90+% of the work. I can write you a quantum computer simulator or an AI search engine or a genetic programming engine or an ecological simulator or many other things in many languages including Lisp and Clojure, but writing and packaging cross-platform editors and development tools just isn't in my bag of tricks right now. I know it could be, and maybe some day I'll acquire those skills, but many others are already quite good at this stuff and have gone to considerable effort to create environments that provide almost all of what I want. So I figure it's a service to give my perspective on what small tweaks would make their efforts reach a wider audience. Fair enough. Given the Jar files, it's relatively easy. You need to 1) install the requisite jar files in a to-be-determined location, and 2) tweak the batch scripts to know where you put the jar files, then install them somewhere where they'll be found by the users command processor. Do you think it's to much to require they get the JVM somewhere else, or should that be part of the bundle as well? mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Newb Question
On 29 June 2010 15:14, Angel Java Lopez ajlopez2...@gmail.com wrote: Hi people! Paul, yes! but... The apply and str evaluations in (apply str (repeat n text)) are lazy? I guess the result could be a big string. Isn't it? So you're looking for a result that behaves like a string, but isn't an actual java.lang.String, rather it's a type that produces characters lazily, on demand somehow? I'm afraid I've no idea if Clojure has such a thing, or even if it could support such a thing. (There's no string abstraction similar to the seq abstraction, as far as I'm aware). But I'm very new at Clojure, so I could easily be wrong... Paul. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Clj on OSX
In the spirit of getting yet another Clojure newbie up and running, I'm hoping someone can help me with my efforts to install Clj (http://github.com/liebke/clj) on OSX 10.6.3. I've been using the clj script provided by ClojureX, but it looks like that project has now been deprecated so I figured I'd upgrade. I first tried downloading the Clj.jar file and following the recommended quick install: jake$ java -jar clj-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar self-install Exception in thread main java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError Caused by: java.lang.VerifyError: class clojure.java.io$loading__4403__auto__ overrides final method meta.()Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap; (internal.clj:1) at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4658) at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4634) at clojure.lang.Compiler.load(Compiler.java:4972) at clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:330) at clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:321) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:399) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:371) at clojure.core$load__6449$fn__6458.invoke(core.clj:4171) at clojure.core$load__6449.doInvoke(core.clj:4170) at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:413) at clojure.core$load_one__6379.invoke(core.clj:4007) at clojure.core$load_lib__6400.doInvoke(core.clj:4044) at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:147) at clojure.core$apply__4370.invoke(core.clj:438) at clojure.core$load_libs__6417.doInvoke(core.clj:4074) at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:142) at clojure.core$apply__4370.invoke(core.clj:440) at clojure.core$use__6443.doInvoke(core.clj:4148) at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:458) at clj.main$eval__4$loading__6309__auto6.invoke(main.clj:1) at clj.main$eval__4.invoke(main.clj:1) at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4642) at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4634) at clojure.lang.Compiler.load(Compiler.java:4972) at clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:330) at clojure.lang.RT.loadResourceScript(RT.java:321) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:399) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:371) at clojure.core$load__6449$fn__6458.invoke(core.clj:4171) at clojure.core$load__6449.doInvoke(core.clj:4170) at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:413) at clojure.lang.Var.invoke(Var.java:359) at clj.main.clinit(Unknown Source) Caused by: java.lang.VerifyError: class clojure.java.io$loading__4403__auto__ overrides final method meta.()Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap; at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method) at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClassCond(ClassLoader.java:632) at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:616) at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:141) at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:283) at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$000(URLClassLoader.java:58) at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:197) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:190) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:307) at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:301) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:248) at clojure.java.io__init.load(Unknown Source) at clojure.java.io__init.clinit(Unknown Source) at java.lang.Class.forName0(Native Method) at java.lang.Class.forName(Class.java:247) at clojure.lang.RT.loadClassForName(RT.java:1516) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:389) at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:371) at clojure.core$load__6449$fn__6458.invoke(core.clj:4171) at clojure.core$load__6449.doInvoke(core.clj:4170) at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:413) at clojure.core$load_one__6379.invoke(core.clj:4007) at clojure.core$load_lib__6400.doInvoke(core.clj:4044) at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:147) at clojure.core$apply__4370.invoke(core.clj:438) at clojure.core$load_libs__6417.doInvoke(core.clj:4070) at clojure.lang.RestFn.applyTo(RestFn.java:142) at clojure.core$apply__4370.invoke(core.clj:440) at clojure.core$use__6443.doInvoke(core.clj:4148) at clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke(RestFn.java:426) at clj.internal$eval__12$loading__6309__auto14.invoke(internal.clj:1) at clj.internal$eval__12.invoke(internal.clj:1) at clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:4642) ... 32 more I then tried cloning the git repository and building with Lein as per the instructions: jake$ lein deps [INFO] snapshot org.clojure:clojure:1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT: checking for updates from
Re: Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
Silly me. I forgot about (doc …). Thanks for the answers. Well, it's good there is documentation, pity it's all over the place. Meikel, idiots are nice people too, so don't feel bad. But seriously, why do you think we work this hard to make the computer do all this things for us? Because we're lazy. On Jun 29, 2:17 pm, Meikel Brandmeyer m...@kotka.de wrote: Hi, On Jun 29, 11:55 am, michele michelemen...@gmail.com wrote: Well, to my surprise and frustration, I haven't found any place which documents that reduce takes an optional initial value. http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/branch-1.1.x/index.html In particular: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/branch-1.1.x/clojure.core-api.ht... (or alternatively: (doc reduce) at the repl) What does this leave open on questions? (Granted: reduce is rather well documented, there are worse examples.) Please, dear very good Clojure creators, if you don't want Clojure to be another language for the specially initiated, good examples will take Clojure to the next level. Uh. Sky is falling again. But your are right. Nice examples would be a nice addition. It's the first thing I'm looking for, when learning something new. I'm not sure they should go to the reference docs, though. People are just like Clojure, lazy. Why do I support lazy people in my spare time? I'm an idiot. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
I believe this is what I ultimately ended up installing on my Macs: http://github.com/carlism/Clojure-MacOSX On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu wrote: What TextMate clojure bundle instructions do you use? I've tried to play with this but the installations haven't worked as advertised. On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:50 PM, Sean Corfield wrote: TextMate has a Clojure bundle. I use it as my primary Clojure editor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: New Primitive data types (equal branch) - impact on optimized code.
OK, I tried this. Object field access instead of arrays made a few percent difference, but not enough to be significant. Definterface and defprotocol, on the other hand, not only gave cleaner code but was more than twice as fast. A huge win if you ask me :) So summarizing this particular benchmark: * 1.1 style optimization using primitive Java arrays peaks at ~4x slower than Java. * 1.2 style optimization using mutable primitive fields in a deftype is only ~1.7x (70%) slower than Java. Links: * more detail including profiling snapshots, JVM version etc. http://wiki.github.com/j-g-faustus/Clojure-test-code/ * 1.2 implementation: http://github.com/j-g-faustus/Clojure-test-code/blob/master/shootout/nbody_type.clj I haven't tried the new numeric branches, there seems to be a sufficient number of people with opinions on those already :) But I can add the observation that it is possible to write very fast numeric code in the 1.2 master branch as it stands today. Possibly non- idiomatically by using mutable fields, but still fast, still Clojure and far cleaner than the 1.1 optimizations. Thanks for the deftype tip. Regards jf On Jun 27, 6:03 pm, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: You could be more idiomatic and probably faster with 1.2's (definterface Body-ish (x[]..). x= ...) and the like with type annotations (or better with protocols, but they have no annotations yet, I think) and (deftype Body [x y ...] Body-ish ). Object field access are a bit faster than array access on the jvm. (as a first try, you could mesure the difference with using the Body class from java and the main loop in clojure, to check where the difference comes from) Best regards, Nicolas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Life on the bleeding edge
On 29 June 2010 18:36, Mark Engelberg mark.engelb...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: Is there anything a clojure newbie with little JVM development experience (but a willingness to learn) can do to help with the Windows situation? From what I understand, Java itself is fine on Windows, so I assume this is a clojure-specific issue? Paul. Tom mentioned to me a few weeks ago that he'd love to have some help getting autodoc to work on Windows, and that he'd be willing to supervise someone who had the time to make the changes. That might be a great way to dive in! OK, I'll take a look. Thanks. Paul -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Hi Lee, 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: Thanks Laurent. Is there automatic Clojure indentation in Counterclockwise now? There's now auto-indentation (when you hit the Enter key). What is still missing is bulk reindentation (whole file at once). There's also a paredit-like mode. I've called it Structural Editing mode, because outside emacs users, paredit means nothing. The mode comes in two flavors : the default mode and the strict mode. The default mode is, well, active by default, and does not block the user (e.g. a newbie user fighting the editor to add/remove a closing paren). The strict mode is my preferred one, it is close to paredit (hitting a closing paren goes right after the closing paren of the enclosing form, etc.). Still perfectible, but already providing great value, I think. One think some may find as a drawback, some not: paredit functionalities, auto-indentation feature, only work if the code is well structured (balanced parens , double quotes ; writing a wrong atom -e.g. a symbol with invalid chars- does no harm to the overall structure, and thus does not disable the features). The best I can offer you as an honest answer is: if you tried it several months ago, it's worth trying it again. You may be surprised, but still consider it does not fit your expectations in critical areas (in this case, please let me know), or you may consider that, while still full of problems, your main expectations are fulfilled and then I'll welcome you onboard. I played with it a couple of months ago and saw a lot to like, and if I recall correctly a lack of indentation support was one of the main reasons I kept looking for alternatives. I think I was also a little confused by some of Eclipse's overall complexity and terminology (e.g. perspectives) coming from a non-Java world, and maybe by some platform-related mismatches between the instructions and what I had to do (in Mac OS X) which, though minor, can still be confusing when starting from zero. I think I could get over these latter issues if there's indentation now. Thanks so much for providing this tool! -Lee On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:49 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: The video must be seen in HD if you want to have a chance to see anything on it. It has no sound, it's not a problem with your computer. 2010/6/29 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com: Ok, so now, please take a look at this video (it's just 3 minutes), and you'll get a grasp at how easy it is to bootstrap an Eclipse based clojure environment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0ZjBMIQS8 Works with eclipse 3.5 and eclipse 3.6. I'm not claiming Eclipse / counterclockwise is better than IDE X or Y, but that I've rarely have complaints in the ml concerning installation problems. Oh, and the video, while a little bit outdated, shows a bunch of already existing features in Eclipse / Counterclockwise : the namespace navigator, the clojure file outline, navigating from the namespace navigator and the file containing the definition of the var, etc. And to be totally clear, no there is currently no history in the REPL, that's planned on our TODO list. :-) -- Laurent 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto-completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going
A capital point if we don't want to loose newbies for free
... at least it's my opinion : we should stop consider newbies are as excited as us by the idea of working with SNAPSHOT dependencies which work day A, break day B. So I think we should have no SNAPSHOT dependencies in the Getting Starting docs, or transitive SNAPSHOT dependencies. We can still have snapshots, of course ! But always have the doc point a version known to work and whose dependencies are totally resolved. Shameless plug, but I think that plugins for IDEs like Counterclockwise for Eclipse, Enclojure for Netbeans, La Clojure for Intellij have less I don't manage this up and running messages is because the users are provided with pre-built and pre-tested versions. Interestingly enough, problems with Enclojure seem to arise when * the people try to deal with labrepl (I guess labrepl has SNAPSHOT dependencies) * the people try to install enclojure in the most recent version of Netbeans (but here, the people doing this eat their own food, since they don't use one of the versions of netbeans suggested by the enclojure team). In both cases, guess what ? Configuration management is the problem. HTH, -- Laurent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 29, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Sean Corfield wrote: I believe this is what I ultimately ended up installing on my Macs: http://github.com/carlism/Clojure-MacOSX Thanks... but wasn't this package declared to be obsoleted by clj? Or was that something else? In any event I note that there are a fair number of steps to the process... and it *may* be what I already tried :-). Still, I'll look into trying it again. -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Laurent, It definitely sounds like I should try the newest version, and I will. Thanks!! -Lee On Jun 29, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Laurent PETIT wrote: There's now auto-indentation (when you hit the Enter key). What is still missing is bulk reindentation (whole file at once). There's also a paredit-like mode. I've called it Structural Editing mode, because outside emacs users, paredit means nothing. The mode comes in two flavors : the default mode and the strict mode. The default mode is, well, active by default, and does not block the user (e.g. a newbie user fighting the editor to add/remove a closing paren). The strict mode is my preferred one, it is close to paredit (hitting a closing paren goes right after the closing paren of the enclosing form, etc.). Still perfectible, but already providing great value, I think. One think some may find as a drawback, some not: paredit functionalities, auto-indentation feature, only work if the code is well structured (balanced parens , double quotes ; writing a wrong atom -e.g. a symbol with invalid chars- does no harm to the overall structure, and thus does not disable the features). The best I can offer you as an honest answer is: if you tried it several months ago, it's worth trying it again. You may be surprised, but still consider it does not fit your expectations in critical areas (in this case, please let me know), or you may consider that, while still full of problems, your main expectations are fulfilled and then I'll welcome you onboard. -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Record bug?
Under the latest snapshot of the equiv branch (07f05862c2), if I create a record: (defrecord MyRecord [foo bar baz]) and then create a record out of it: (def x (MyRecord. 1 2 3)) I can use a keyword as a function to get the data: (:foo x) 1 But if I use the record as a function like I would for a map, I get an error: (x :foo) java.lang.ClassCastException: user.MyRecord cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn Is that a bug or is there something I don't get about records? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A capital point if we don't want to loose newbies for free
This is a well-solved problem in open source. It involves keep a gold version of the system on some well-known site (e.g. sourceforge) and a silver version on another well-known site (e.g. github). The gold version is released on a regular basis (say, once every 2 months). It is tested using an ever-growing test suite. It is packaged with both source and binary for a wide variety of systems. There should be a website supporting the gold version. Docs on this site are up to date. There is a revision history. The silver version changes daily. Changes are only posted to the silver system after they pass the test suite. If they add new functions they are posted with new tests. If they change old functions the tests have to be updated to pass. It is a cardinal sin to break the build. A week before release to Gold the silver version is frozen except for bug fixes. Laurent PETIT wrote: ... at least it's my opinion : we should stop consider newbies are as excited as us by the idea of working with SNAPSHOT dependencies which work day A, break day B. So I think we should have no SNAPSHOT dependencies in the Getting Starting docs, or transitive SNAPSHOT dependencies. We can still have snapshots, of course ! But always have the doc point a version known to work and whose dependencies are totally resolved. Shameless plug, but I think that plugins for IDEs like Counterclockwise for Eclipse, Enclojure for Netbeans, La Clojure for Intellij have less I don't manage this up and running messages is because the users are provided with pre-built and pre-tested versions. Interestingly enough, problems with Enclojure seem to arise when * the people try to deal with labrepl (I guess labrepl has SNAPSHOT dependencies) * the people try to install enclojure in the most recent version of Netbeans (but here, the people doing this eat their own food, since they don't use one of the versions of netbeans suggested by the enclojure team). In both cases, guess what ? Configuration management is the problem. HTH, -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: New Primitive data types (equal branch) - impact on optimized code.
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, j-g-faustus johannes.fries...@gmail.comwrote: OK, I tried this. Object field access instead of arrays made a few percent difference, but not enough to be significant. Definterface and defprotocol, on the other hand, not only gave cleaner code but was more than twice as fast. A huge win if you ask me :) So summarizing this particular benchmark: * 1.1 style optimization using primitive Java arrays peaks at ~4x slower than Java. * 1.2 style optimization using mutable primitive fields in a deftype is only ~1.7x (70%) slower than Java. Links: * more detail including profiling snapshots, JVM version etc. http://wiki.github.com/j-g-faustus/Clojure-test-code/ * 1.2 implementation: http://github.com/j-g-faustus/Clojure-test-code/blob/master/shootout/nbody_type.clj I haven't tried the new numeric branches, there seems to be a sufficient number of people with opinions on those already :) You should give the latest equiv branch a shot and let us know. The gap should be a bit smaller since arithmetic operations won't box their results. David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A capital point if we don't want to loose newbies for free
Course, this seems ideal. But I'm pretty sure that already 80% of the value will come if we just correctly control what we deliver to newbies in terms of fixed dependency graph. 2010/6/29 Tim Daly d...@axiom-developer.org: This is a well-solved problem in open source. It involves keep a gold version of the system on some well-known site (e.g. sourceforge) and a silver version on another well-known site (e.g. github). The gold version is released on a regular basis (say, once every 2 months). It is tested using an ever-growing test suite. It is packaged with both source and binary for a wide variety of systems. There should be a website supporting the gold version. Docs on this site are up to date. There is a revision history. The silver version changes daily. Changes are only posted to the silver system after they pass the test suite. If they add new functions they are posted with new tests. If they change old functions the tests have to be updated to pass. It is a cardinal sin to break the build. A week before release to Gold the silver version is frozen except for bug fixes. Laurent PETIT wrote: ... at least it's my opinion : we should stop consider newbies are as excited as us by the idea of working with SNAPSHOT dependencies which work day A, break day B. So I think we should have no SNAPSHOT dependencies in the Getting Starting docs, or transitive SNAPSHOT dependencies. We can still have snapshots, of course ! But always have the doc point a version known to work and whose dependencies are totally resolved. Shameless plug, but I think that plugins for IDEs like Counterclockwise for Eclipse, Enclojure for Netbeans, La Clojure for Intellij have less I don't manage this up and running messages is because the users are provided with pre-built and pre-tested versions. Interestingly enough, problems with Enclojure seem to arise when * the people try to deal with labrepl (I guess labrepl has SNAPSHOT dependencies) * the people try to install enclojure in the most recent version of Netbeans (but here, the people doing this eat their own food, since they don't use one of the versions of netbeans suggested by the enclojure team). In both cases, guess what ? Configuration management is the problem. HTH, -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
Yes, CCW has automatic indentation at this point. - Chas On Jun 29, 2010, at 9:32 AM, Lee Spector wrote: Thanks Laurent. Is there automatic Clojure indentation in Counterclockwise now? I played with it a couple of months ago and saw a lot to like, and if I recall correctly a lack of indentation support was one of the main reasons I kept looking for alternatives. I think I was also a little confused by some of Eclipse's overall complexity and terminology (e.g. perspectives) coming from a non-Java world, and maybe by some platform-related mismatches between the instructions and what I had to do (in Mac OS X) which, though minor, can still be confusing when starting from zero. I think I could get over these latter issues if there's indentation now. Thanks so much for providing this tool! -Lee On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:49 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: The video must be seen in HD if you want to have a chance to see anything on it. It has no sound, it's not a problem with your computer. 2010/6/29 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com: Ok, so now, please take a look at this video (it's just 3 minutes), and you'll get a grasp at how easy it is to bootstrap an Eclipse based clojure environment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0ZjBMIQS8 Works with eclipse 3.5 and eclipse 3.6. I'm not claiming Eclipse / counterclockwise is better than IDE X or Y, but that I've rarely have complaints in the ml concerning installation problems. Oh, and the video, while a little bit outdated, shows a bunch of already existing features in Eclipse / Counterclockwise : the namespace navigator, the clojure file outline, navigating from the namespace navigator and the file containing the definition of the var, etc. And to be totally clear, no there is currently no history in the REPL, that's planned on our TODO list. :-) -- Laurent 2010/6/29 Lee Spector lspec...@hampshire.edu: On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Greg wrote: Have you tried IntelliJ with the La Clojure plugin? I tried all 3 IDEs and I was most impressed with IntelliJ IDEA. It's not too difficult to setup, and once you do it's really nice and has I think all of the stuff you asked about (syntax coloring, auto- completion, doc access, etc.). Thanks for the recommendation. Somehow I had overlooked this one previously. I just downloaded and installed it, installed the Plugin (a little weird that there's no Download and Install button when you select the plugin, and you have to know to right-click, but the assembla instructions told me I'd have to right click it was okay), but then what? The assembla instructions (http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Idea_and_La_Clojure ) have a section for To checkout a project from git and a section for To open an existing maven-based project, but I don't want to do either. I want to write and run some Clojure code from scratch. I'd like a REPL and an editor buffer or two... Starting from Create New Project I clicked through a bunch of dialogs that I didn't understand, said okay to a warning about not assigning a JDK (because I didn't know what else to do there), and eventually got what looks like a project window but not (as far as I see) an editor buffer or a REPL. Returning to the assembla instructions I saw (both in the git section and in the maven section) Choose Tools|Clojure REPL|Add new Clojure REPL to launch a REPL on your project. So I tried this but got Can't creat REPL. Clojure home path is not configured correctly! It's possible that this is the environment that I'm looking for, but my new user experience is not going very well at this point. Any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks, -Lee -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438 Check out Genetic Programming and Evolvable Machines: http://www.springer.com/10710 - http://gpemjournal.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of
Re: Documentation and examples (and where is the documentation on reduce)?
Hi, Am 29.06.2010 um 19:11 schrieb michele: Meikel, idiots are nice people too, so don't feel bad. But seriously, why do you think we work this hard to make the computer do all this things for us? Because we're lazy. Ah. IMHO, computer help us solving problems which we wouldn't have without them. But then: laziness is the source of intelligence. Or was it the other way around? ;) Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Greg wrote: - Clojure (and some environment for working with it) must be as friendly and approachable for new users as possible. It is not an expert's or professional's language, at least in my conception, and thinking of it that way will doom it to irrelevancy. Our community has been extraordinarily open and welcoming to newcomers for years, and any change in that posture would be devastating. I (thankfully) have little fear of this actually happening. I hope you're right, because it seems like some people are really gunning for this silly comp. sci. professors-only perspective. It's made sillier still considering that one of the main motivations behind Clojure was to create a practical Lisp. Indeed, there are many nontrivial personas that actively wish for a smaller (or at least not maximally large), more exclusive community. It's extraordinarily helpful that Rich et al. established early on that RTFM (or RTFSourceCode) shan't be the community's default posture. That tension is revisited once every several months (such as it has been the last few days), and probably will be again for years to come depending on how much the community grows. - Chas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Leiningen documentation review?
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org wrote: I'm pushing for a Leiningen 1.2.0 release really soon now, and part of that effort is sprucing up the documentation. I've revamped the readme and added a tutorial for folks just getting started. Of course, self-editing is never as good as having outside help, so I'd love it if I could get some feedback on it. I'm particularly interested in opinions from people who are just starting out with Clojure--it's easy for me to take things for granted that not everyone understands. Mostly I'd like feedback on the tutorial: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/TUTORIAL.md But if you've got some time to look over the readme, that would be great too: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/README.md With all the newbies that have chimed in recently with strong opinions on the newbies thread, I was wondering if I could convince some of them to help the out-of-the-box experience by suggesting improvements to the recently-revised pieces of documentation above. =) -Phil -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Record bug?
I think record doen't implements all the stuff a PersistentMap implementes. It implementes the interface for map-lookup (with get and :foo) but doesn't implements IFn (for using an instance as a function). On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: Under the latest snapshot of the equiv branch (07f05862c2), if I create a record: (defrecord MyRecord [foo bar baz]) and then create a record out of it: (def x (MyRecord. 1 2 3)) I can use a keyword as a function to get the data: (:foo x) 1 But if I use the record as a function like I would for a map, I get an error: (x :foo) java.lang.ClassCastException: user.MyRecord cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn Is that a bug or is there something I don't get about records? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Moritz Ulrich Programmer, Student, Almost normal Guy http://www.google.com/profiles/ulrich.moritz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
First, just to gather a gestalt here (names elided as I'm not trying to single anyone out): On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:54 PM, XXX wrote: If you are going to go to all the trouble to work with Clojure, you might as well be exposed to the reality of a semi-production Clojure project. Put the waterwings on the kid, but then throw him in the deep end. If he can't swim, he isn't ready for macros anyway. On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:50 PM, XXX wrote: If folks find the Java stack intimidating, maybe Clojure isn't for them? Lots of language run on the JVM and they all require some basic knowledge of classpaths, build tools and existing IDEs such as Ecliper, NetBeans, IntelliJ etc. If folks are new to all that, I don't think it's Clojure's job to teach them - there's plenty of literature out there about the JVM environment and tools. On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:11 AM, XXX wrote: The fact remains though that Clojure trades in heavy concepts. The syntax alone will simply be a non-starter for at least half the potential audience. Toss in concurrency and non-mutability and ubiquitous recursion which are tricky concepts no matter how cleanly exposed in the language. As many posters have said in this thread, you really do have to have a decent grasp on Java to do real work in Clojure so you're already on the hook for two languages, one of which is a baroque and provincial monster. Like any engineering problem, language design is about tradeoffs. Obviously Rich has worked hard to make Clojure as approachable as possible but you can't simultaneously emphasize tackling the really hard problems in software engineering and making CRUDDY webapps as painless as possible for the average programmer. Stop. Please, just stop. The discussion about newcomers is *not* about what one needs to know or should know in order to build über-complicated applications for deployment in production -- it's about what the learning curve looks and feels like to various constituencies. Any talk about how Clojure might be too much for some, for whatever reason, is out of bounds IMO. Clojure, as a language, is *simpler* than just about all of the popular alternatives out there, and the language is eminently approachable and practical for programmers from varying domains and with varying levels of experience. The key is making the sometimes-tricky, sometimes-unfamiliar operational details of the underlying platform less of a burden, or ideally, nonexistent for that critical first couple of weeks or months of exploratory, experimental programming. As I said in a prior note, this challenge will remain for any flavor of Clojure, so it'd be best if we embraced the fact that plastering over platform minutiae is going to be a constant requirement, and thoughtfully approach the problem rather than reverting to showing people the door if they don't grok the full stack or simply believe that it's not relevant to them (e.g. within a purely pedagogical environment). Cheers, - Chas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
So I wonder how much making the first few baby steps easier is really going to help the uptake of Clojure. I have to imagine that the kind of person that can't figure out a CLASSPATH is going to have his head explode when he has to figure out how to restructure all his iterations in terms of loop/recur. This discussion, although interesting, is ridiculous.I've been doing this for nearly 40 years and if I'd listened to all the people who worried that new languages were to hard for noobs, I'd still be writing Fortran or Cobal.C was hard when it first came out - for most of the same reasons people are using with Clojure.Clojure is a great language now and can only get better because it mixes the greatest language ever invented (Lisp) with the best library available.People have complained for years about the limitations of Lisp, but it's still with us (whatever happened to PL1?)All Lisp has ever needed was a universal library. Let the faint of heart turn away - they will come back. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A capital point if we don't want to loose newbies for free
On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:54:28 +0200 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: ... at least it's my opinion : we should stop consider newbies are as excited as us by the idea of working with SNAPSHOT dependencies which work day A, break day B. So I think we should have no SNAPSHOT dependencies in the Getting Starting docs, or transitive SNAPSHOT dependencies. Doesn't this just boil down to newbies shouldn't run unreleased software? Which is considered simple common sense in most communities. We can still have snapshots, of course ! But always have the doc point a version known to work and whose dependencies are totally resolved. I'd recommend that pages telling you how to install them *also* point out that this is bleeding edge stuff, may have problems or be hard to install, and if you're not prepared to deal with those and provide feedback on them, you'd best go back to the released software. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Greg g...@kinostudios.com wrote: Just because you found it easy to get started, does not mean others do, and judging from the reaction to my post, I'm by no means the only person to feel this way. You went to a bootcamp to learn clojure, you found some Clojure-MacOSX package, and you're perfectly fine with using a Terminal and TextMate. Others do not come from your point of view. Right, and I wasn't trying to invalidate those other points of view. I was just saying that I don't think Clojure itself - language and environment - is *unusually* difficult to get up and running. I actually agree with all the comments in the thread about the base level of Java / JVM complexity that acts as a barrier to entry for those not coming from a Java / JVM background. It afflicts all the 'new' JVM-targeted languages pretty much equally: Groovy / Grails, Scala / Lift are both good examples of 'new'(-ish) technologies that have a lot of Java / JVM baggage which can be off-putting. With Lift, I didn't even get further than the first example that wanted me to use Maven... sorry, but I just don't need that much pain in my life! Now there's a movement to get Lift powered by sbt (Scala Build Tool) which is to Scala something like lein is to Clojure (sbt actually does a better job of hiding the underlying unpleasantness, IMO, but it has a head start and I expect lein will continue to improve too). I'll probably start using Lift once sbt becomes the preferred build tool for it. Back to Clojure: I think some of the folks coming here from non-JVM backgrounds would find the same obstacles with Scala or any other JVM-based language. I'm not sure realistically how much that can be simplified beyond lein. I think the IDE question is interesting. When looking at any new language (and I try to learn a new language every year), I don't want to be forced to learn a new IDE. I want to be able to use one of my existing IDEs or editors. I suspect that's true for a number of people and the only viable result is lots of plugins for lots of IDEs - which, with a very new language, means variable quality or even lack of support within some IDEs. Clojure is probably the youngest language I've ever tried to learn. Certainly its tool support seems to be the most immature of anything I've tried to work with (no criticism intended - it's just young). I don't think there are any easy solutions. I _do_ think it'll improve over time. Clojure may simply be at a point where, right now, it's just not able to be very n00b-friendly for some classes of n00bs. The feedback from those n00bs - and I still consider myself one of them - is still useful (of course) but I suspect we'll have to muddle through for quite a while yet before things get friendly enough to satisfy most people :) In response to Chas, you said If there was a single-awesome catch-all setup that served the needs of 80% of Clojure users, that would not be the case, and Clojure's community would thrive. and when I first started asking about Clojure I was pointed at Emacs and I was like Uh-oh! There has to be a simpler way to learn Clojure?. It does seem like Emacs is the default IDE choice that's offered to n00bs and I used Emacs a long, long time ago and never want to go back to it (and, yes, I know people who love Emacs and I'm not saying it's a bad IDE, it's just not one I want to use). I'd prefer to use an Eclipse-based solution because I already do all my Java / Groovy / Scala (and CFML) development in Eclipse. Sounds like there's a viable option for that now so I'll try it. As for the Java / JVM baggage. I don't know what to suggest there. I agree it's yet another thing to learn if you don't have that background but it's a one-time thing and it sets you up for using any of the other JVM-targeted languages since they all work the same way. I suspect I'd hit the same problem trying to learn Ruby with its gem system or any .NET language (although, of course, there I'd be pretty much forced to learn a new IDE - Visual Whatever - and, in my case, a new O/S since I'm a Mac/Linux guy primarily). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Record bug?
Is it by design or it just doesn't implement it yet? On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Moritz Ulrich ulrich.mor...@googlemail.com wrote: I think record doen't implements all the stuff a PersistentMap implementes. It implementes the interface for map-lookup (with get and :foo) but doesn't implements IFn (for using an instance as a function). On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: Under the latest snapshot of the equiv branch (07f05862c2), if I create a record: (defrecord MyRecord [foo bar baz]) and then create a record out of it: (def x (MyRecord. 1 2 3)) I can use a keyword as a function to get the data: (:foo x) 1 But if I use the record as a function like I would for a map, I get an error: (x :foo) java.lang.ClassCastException: user.MyRecord cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn Is that a bug or is there something I don't get about records? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Moritz Ulrich Programmer, Student, Almost normal Guy http://www.google.com/profiles/ulrich.moritz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Record bug?
I think it's by-design, but I might be wrong. On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: Is it by design or it just doesn't implement it yet? On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Moritz Ulrich ulrich.mor...@googlemail.com wrote: I think record doen't implements all the stuff a PersistentMap implementes. It implementes the interface for map-lookup (with get and :foo) but doesn't implements IFn (for using an instance as a function). On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Daniel Gagnon redalas...@gmail.com wrote: Under the latest snapshot of the equiv branch (07f05862c2), if I create a record: (defrecord MyRecord [foo bar baz]) and then create a record out of it: (def x (MyRecord. 1 2 3)) I can use a keyword as a function to get the data: (:foo x) 1 But if I use the record as a function like I would for a map, I get an error: (x :foo) java.lang.ClassCastException: user.MyRecord cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn Is that a bug or is there something I don't get about records? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Moritz Ulrich Programmer, Student, Almost normal Guy http://www.google.com/profiles/ulrich.moritz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Moritz Ulrich Programmer, Student, Almost normal Guy http://www.google.com/profiles/ulrich.moritz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: The discussion about newcomers is *not* about what one needs to know or should know in order to build über-complicated applications for deployment in production -- it's about what the learning curve looks and feels like to various constituencies. No. This discussion is/was about (non-specific) changes being proposed to Clojure. And the making the word constituencies plural implies more than one, when only one constituency has been advocated for in the entire discussion- the constituency of programmers whose heads explode if they are introduced to editors more complicated than notepad, version control more complicated than backing up floppy (USB keychain nowadays, I'd guess), build environments more complicated than click run, and more than one choice in any of the above. And before you get on me about my characterization here, these aren't the assumptions I'm making, these are assumptions other people in this thread (including the original blog post) are making. They're just not phrased quite so bluntly. Any talk about how Clojure might be too much for some, for whatever reason, is out of bounds IMO. Clojure, as a language, is *simpler* than just about all of the popular alternatives out there, and the language is eminently approachable and practical for programmers from varying domains and with varying levels of experience. Ignoring the Java side of things, and for a specific definition of simple, this may be correct. But you can't ignore the Java side of things when measuring complexity. Even relatively simple things, like opening up a network socket, require you to interact with Java. Ever seen the cockpit of a 747? Brian -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Next NYC Clojure User group meetings will be hosted @google
rsvp link? thanks, marc On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Eric Thorsen ethor...@enclojure.org wrote: We are looking for presenters for the next couple of meetings that will be hosted @google. Thank you Andrey Fedorov for making this happen! Please let me know if you would like to present. RSVP as soon as possible as there are only 50 spots and we expect a full house. The dates are Wednesday July 14th and Wednesday August 18th both starting @6:30pm. The cutoff for the RSVP is the Tuesday morning before the meeting. Looking forward to seeing you there. Eric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
