Re: Clojure web framework
(defn render-test [ret tmt]
(- (resp/response --rendertest--)
(#(resp/content-type %1 text/plain
(defn foo
I don't do a whole lot.
[x]
(str 来自源码目录的参数： x))
(defn handler [^Integer x]
{:$r render-test :text (str hello world, road goes sucess! (foo x))})
(defn home [req content ^Integer num]
{:hiccup home.clj :content (str home content) :num num})
(defroad road (GET /web-test-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone/main handler)
(GET /web-test-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone/home/:num{\\d+} home))
(defn -main [ args]
(log/info -log4j test---)
(jetty/run-jetty road {:port 3000}))
https://github.com/zhujinxian/road.git
https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fzhujinxian%2Froad.gitsa=Dsntz=1usg=AFQjCNFowkAquOVhS0iYdRjEzfhBOCMWGw
On Friday, September 28, 2012 at 3:36:20 PM UTC+8, Roman Yakovlev wrote:
Hi
So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google
get these results, at least for me
1. noir
2. stackoverflow question 2008 year
3. stackoverflow question 2010 year
4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person)
5. Compojure ( routing dsl)
So there is no popular framework these days for clojure.
Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir
developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site
instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no
new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir
in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and
stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your
own.
It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If
language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain
more popularity.
Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community,
active development, industry standart web development framework. Good
testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css
managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework
itself which is good start point for newbies.
I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe
it can be very good platform for web development.
So what i suggest :
Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most
mature framework) .
Form working core group from 5-6 people.
Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir)
Make good site about it
Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version)
Make first version
Make couple good examples
Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on
github that will be online and updated frequently).
--
http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be
Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html
Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke
https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice
insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile
when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect
place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure
Web framework project.
Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place
where this thing can shine.
Let's discuss.
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Clojure web framework
+1. Now is 2015 :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
clojure web framework
anybody know the easiest way to create web applications and deploy to amazon web services? (either EC2 or elastic beanstalk) Thanks, Jon -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: clojure web framework
Well for creation itself, http://www.luminusweb.net/ represents best practices with Ring, Compojure, and the usual attendant libraries. For deployment, I'd say something like Fabric or Ansible is going to be the simplest way to start. On Friday, September 13, 2013 10:45:10 AM UTC-7, Jon Barker wrote: anybody know the easiest way to create web applications and deploy to amazon web services? (either EC2 or elastic beanstalk) Thanks, Jon -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: clojure web framework
Hi John, It's super easy to deploy Clojure web app (ring) to Amazon Beanstalk. I think there were few blog posts about that. Basically you just need https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk Anton On Friday, September 13, 2013 2:45:10 PM UTC-3, Jon Barker wrote: anybody know the easiest way to create web applications and deploy to amazon web services? (either EC2 or elastic beanstalk) Thanks, Jon -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Clojure Web Framework
There's now an example and a tutorial for using the CHP web framework.CHP - https://github.com/runexec/chpWork with HTML, CSS, _javascript_, and SQL using Clojure. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Clojure web framework
Lets not forget http://clojurescriptone.com/ Its a pretty amazing artifact, a complete app with perfect documentation. Its also essentially a template. If someone is totally lost on how to get started with clojure web programming, just go to that. In the more general case, I strongly agree that lein templates are the way to go. Its so great so just create a new project via the lein plugins. Its not totally idiot proof, but way better than inert texts telling you how to install various things. On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 10:27 PM, James MacAulay jmacau...@gmail.com wrote: Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with documentation. The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up a complete system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let you defer choices until you actually need to care about them. Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good approach to fill this gap would be just a lein project template with an opinionated set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy, and a good Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that might fit that description, but none have very high visibility. -James -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
It seems you have missed one important framework: ClojureScript One So I have choosed to make the *TodoMVC* template (see [0]) application with *ClojureScript One* and *Enfocus*. ( see [1] for running app ) What I could say now, is that CjOne is a little hard to embrace, but when it's done , this is a real pleasure to work with. (I havent used the api functionalities in the sample, *todos* are saved on local repo) The hard part was to integrate *Enfocus*. The whole view is done with Enfocus which rocks ! For those interested in code, see [2]. ___ [0] http://todomvc.com [1] http://todomvc.herokuapp.com [2] https://github.com/phperret/cjone-todomvc.git Le vendredi 28 septembre 2012 09:36:20 UTC+2, Yakovlev Roman a écrit : Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Hello, I had a similar question as the OP so I thought i should post it in this thread instead of starting a new one. I am trying to build a web services api which will only respond in json format. I had a look at everything suggested in this topic and I am leaning towards noir. Do you think this would be a good option for a web services api or should i go with ring + compojure, or something else?? In addition, I will be needing to add authentication and authorization at the api and I haven't found a noir middleware to be able to handle this. Do I need to roll out something of my own with the use of noir pre-route and maybe a middleware or is there something in existence which I am not aware of? Thank you for any replies. On Friday, September 28, 2012 10:36:20 AM UTC+3, Yakovlev Roman wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
You do not need noir to create a simple json api, just use compojure. I find the Cheshire json library to also be useful: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire. Authentication and authorization libs were pretty much up to you until https://github.com/cemerick/friend was released fairly recently, so you could look at that (I haven't used it myself). I would also recommend starting the server with embedded jetty rather than mess around with app containers, it's far simpler (look at ring.adapter.jetty). We have many json apis written in clojure in production where I work, and they have worked out great for us. On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:01 PM, arekanderu arekand...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I had a similar question as the OP so I thought i should post it in this thread instead of starting a new one. I am trying to build a web services api which will only respond in json format. I had a look at everything suggested in this topic and I am leaning towards noir. Do you think this would be a good option for a web services api or should i go with ring + compojure, or something else?? In addition, I will be needing to add authentication and authorization at the api and I haven't found a noir middleware to be able to handle this. Do I need to roll out something of my own with the use of noir pre-route and maybe a middleware or is there something in existence which I am not aware of? Thank you for any replies. On Friday, September 28, 2012 10:36:20 AM UTC+3, Yakovlev Roman wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Thanks a lot Gaz :) I am pretty new to clojure but I like it a lot so far. Good to know that there are a lot of things going fast in the clojure community! On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 9:39:21 PM UTC+3, Gaz wrote: You do not need noir to create a simple json api, just use compojure. I find the Cheshire json library to also be useful: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire. Authentication and authorization libs were pretty much up to you until https://github.com/cemerick/friend was released fairly recently, so you could look at that (I haven't used it myself). I would also recommend starting the server with embedded jetty rather than mess around with app containers, it's far simpler (look at ring.adapter.jetty). We have many json apis written in clojure in production where I work, and they have worked out great for us. On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:01 PM, arekanderu areka...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Hello, I had a similar question as the OP so I thought i should post it in this thread instead of starting a new one. I am trying to build a web services api which will only respond in json format. I had a look at everything suggested in this topic and I am leaning towards noir. Do you think this would be a good option for a web services api or should i go with ring + compojure, or something else?? In addition, I will be needing to add authentication and authorization at the api and I haven't found a noir middleware to be able to handle this. Do I need to roll out something of my own with the use of noir pre-route and maybe a middleware or is there something in existence which I am not aware of? Thank you for any replies. On Friday, September 28, 2012 10:36:20 AM UTC+3, Yakovlev Roman wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.comjavascript: Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com javascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Ok that's good idea really.
As i can see you just use ring compojure korma for mysql and postgresql for
pg database.
As for me i use for my first project this config
(defproject testpro 0.1.0-SNAPSHOT
:plugins [[lein-catnip 0.4.1]]
:description FIXME: write description
:url http://example.com/FIXME;
:license {:name Eclipse Public License
:url http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html}
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure 1.4.0]
[noir 1.3.0-beta10]
[lein-catnip 0.4.1]
[com.novemberain/monger 1.2.0] ]
:main ^{:skip-aot true} testpro.server)
This config use Noir, monger for MongoDb, catnip as development ide (
though i switch time to time to sublime 2).
So connection with db very easy as monger http://clojuremongodb.info/ has
very good documentation.
(mg/connect!) ; Connect to db
(mg/set-db! (mg/get-db myweb)) ; Choose db
require monger.core for this stuff to work
Also my app has
views
models
helpers
folders and main page with just actions and pages for the app. Noir
bootstrap gives you some structure from the start which includes models and
views also.
So main thing missed at Noir is useful modules like gems for Rails. In
Rails you can add devise or nifty-generators which gives you
Authentication, Authorization from scratch and templates and basic
authentication from nifty and other good stuff.
For Noir project there should be lein plugins i guess, but will be those
plugins built in or use noir as platform that is the question.
On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 9:09:23 AM UTC+4, Leonardo Borges wrote:
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM, James MacAulay
jmac...@gmail.comjavascript:
wrote:
Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with
documentation. The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up
a complete system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let
you defer choices until you actually need to care about them.
Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good
approach to fill this gap would be just a lein project template with an
opinionated set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy,
and a good Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that
might fit that description, but none have very high visibility.
That's a good point. I put together a repo that I've been using as my main
template for web apps for a while. You can find it on github:
https://github.com/leonardoborges/clj-boilerplate
It tries to bridge that gap. The idea is to clone it, follow the readme
and you should have a new webapp running in a short amount of time.
I would like to turn it into a lein template but haven't had the time to
do so. Still, it could be useful to some.
Cheers,
Leonardo Borges
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Re: Clojure web framework
Hi Simone, Simone Mosciatti mweb@gmail.com writes: Immutant ( http://immutant.org/ ) IMO is moving in a great direction, if I have understand is wrapping several libraries in just one enviroment... Since you brought it up, I'd like to clarify terminology a bit in case anyone thinks Immutant is a framework. An *application* is a collection of *libraries* assembled in a particular way to provide some service. A *framework* enforces a particular way, essentially providing a template for building your application. Immutant is not a framework, it's an application server, a single process capable of running multiple applications simultaneously, including some commodity services like messaging, scheduling and caching that, because they're integrated, can be easily clustered and coordinated. Immutant does provide libraries to invoke those services, but if and how you use them in your application is completely up to you. And red hat is behind it I just find out, that usually means great doc... You mean like this? ;-) https://twitter.com/gphil/statuses/253285427702816768 Sorry to hijack the thread, Jim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with documentation. The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up a complete system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let you defer choices until you actually need to care about them. Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good approach to fill this gap would be just a lein project template with an opinionated set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy, and a good Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that might fit that description, but none have very high visibility. -James -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM, James MacAulay jmacau...@gmail.comwrote: Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with documentation. The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up a complete system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let you defer choices until you actually need to care about them. Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good approach to fill this gap would be just a lein project template with an opinionated set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy, and a good Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that might fit that description, but none have very high visibility. That's a good point. I put together a repo that I've been using as my main template for web apps for a while. You can find it on github: https://github.com/leonardoborges/clj-boilerplate It tries to bridge that gap. The idea is to clone it, follow the readme and you should have a new webapp running in a short amount of time. I would like to turn it into a lein template but haven't had the time to do so. Still, it could be useful to some. Cheers, Leonardo Borges -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Immutant ( http://immutant.org/ ) IMO is moving in a great direction, if I have understand is wrapping several libraries in just one enviroment... And red hat is behind it I just find out, that usually means great doc... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
So we are back to the documentation reach issue again. I think the best solution would be one (!) central community wiki and prominent mentions of it from the clojure.org . The wiki could contain the links to the latest tutorials and so on. It should have quite low barrier to entry. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Open source projects aren't the result of one person's activity. Other people are welcome to contribute. Noir isn't dead or anything, it's just slow at the moment. Furthermore, yes, the website is outdated. I do not have access to the website in order to update it, and there hasn't been a non-beta release yet anyways. Chris has things he wanted to see done first, things I don't intend to do, so it's mostly waiting on that. You can certainly use Noir -- I've got two websites running on the latest beta version right now. lein2 works fine with it. Nothing to install, in fact. I am maintaining noir to the best of my ability. This mostly means I merge pull requests that make sense or ask Chris if they don't. But I don't have any time for it at all, so any time I do find is pretty rare. Besides that, I'm a bigger fan of Compojure these days. If the only argument for a framework over libraries is newbies find it easier, I agree that documentation is the answer and not another monolithic framework. It isn't hard to use Compojure and other web development libraries. I don't think choice is an issue. You can find out what libraries are most common with simple google queries and common sense. On Friday, September 28, 2012 2:36:20 AM UTC-5, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Clojure offers a lot of choice. Great for experienced developers, hard for newbies. Pick something, run with it, contribute documentation to make it better. There have been several attempts to create the one true wiki and so far they've all failed for lack of contributions from the folks who have the most need (the folks who are already successful with the software don't need the wiki and are generally too busy to contribute - and also don't have the newbie's mindset so it's hard to write the right material at the right level). Definitely Clojure's Achilles heel... Sean On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run Yes i already made pull request to update README file with this. Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on. How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices. How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that. What debbuging tools can i use. Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? So examples and good updated guides/online book does matter. There should be clear point about why Clojure and Clojure applied to web better then others, how it can solve problems better then others. How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that ? I am not talking about absence of any guides and recommendations about web dev in Clojure there are couple good examples but they are outdated. And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure. пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 19:37:05 UTC+4 пользователь Sean Corfield написал: The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests). I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works: lein new fw1 my-app cd my-app lein run (or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port) Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the CFML version :) I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of libraries to help build an application than to use frameworks. FW/1 uses Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :) Sean On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So
Re: Clojure web framework
On Saturday, September 29, 2012 1:48:10 PM UTC+2, Anthony Grimes wrote: I do not have access to the website in order to update it Somebody (Chris Granger ???) has the access, if you are actually maintaining it you should have the access too... Chris has things he wanted to see done first, *things I don't intend to do *, so it's mostly waiting on that. Like what ? Do you refer to the road map ? Just example and tutorial ? If there is something more would be cool to know... Maybe somebody has already wrote something, or he could work on it... I agree that documentation is the answer and not another monolithic framework. Documentation is always an issue, few times ago I propose to organize a fund raiser to improve OUR project, the project of OUR community, stuff we should be proud of, and the improve of the doc was one of the biggest issue... However nobody supported me. It isn't hard to use Compojure and other web development libraries. You can really use noir with just the few example in the website, although I had some previous (few) knowledge of web developing (django) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
goracio, This is an important issue. Many developers are familiar with an ecosystem built around a well known framework. Ruby has Rails, Java has Spring, Python has Django. Clojure might benefit by imitating that pattern. However, I will point out, Clojure is almost 5 years old, and so far that pattern has not emerged. Maybe there is a good reason for this? I am sure that you have heard the argument that the big frameworks exist because composability is difficult in many languages. But composability is easy in a Lisp, so the need for a big framework is reduced. Clojure's culture and style so far has been one in which a project gets stitched together with many small libraries, rather than a single monolithic framework (and even Rails has moved away from being monolithic, toward a style of being many optional gems). I think your project sounds like it could be useful to many people. I wish you all the luck in the world. But for my part, I am a refugee from the world of monolithic frameworks. My work has forced me to spend the last few years working with Ruby/Rails and PHP/Symfony. For me, Clojure is like a breath of fresh air. I enjoy building an app where I can decide what libraries I really need. And I know that both Rails and Symfony are slowly moving to break themselves up in smaller pieces. Most of the big frameworks would like to be where Clojure already is. Maybe Clojure really needs The One Big Web Framework That Does Everything. But that style seems to be slowly going out of fashion elsewhere. It is possible that the future of every language is like the present-tense Clojure experience: many libraries, composed as you wish. Of course, Clojure has the great advantage of being a Lisp. On Sep 28, 3:36 am, goracio felix...@gmail.com wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). --http://www.playframework.org/good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on railshttp://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokkehttps://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that ? That is a great question. I think the appropriate response is to be honest about the culture of Clojure. When I try to answer that question to other developers I say: In Clojure, there is a collection of standard libraries, rather than a single framework. Almost everyone starts off with Ring, which is exactly the same thing as Rack. For routes, people use either Moustache or Compojure. For the database, people use ClojureQL or Korma. For HTML templates, people use either Hiccup or Enlive. You pick the library that matches your preferred style, and all of the libraries are surprisingly easy to glue together. That is 6 sentences -- a fairly concise way of communicating one of the most exciting aspects of Clojure. On Sep 28, 12:30 pm, goracio felix...@gmail.com wrote: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run Yes i already made pull request to update README file with this. Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on. How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices. How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that. What debbuging tools can i use. Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? So examples and good updated guides/online book does matter. There should be clear point about why Clojure and Clojure applied to web better then others, how it can solve problems better then others. How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that ? I am not talking about absence of any guides and recommendations about web dev in Clojure there are couple good examples but they are outdated. And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure. пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 19:37:05 UTC+4 пользователь Sean Corfield написал: The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests). I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works: lein new fw1 my-app cd my-app lein run (or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port) Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the CFML version :) I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of libraries to help build an application than to use frameworks. FW/1 uses Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :) Sean On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active
Re: Clojure web framework
Documentation is always an issue, few times ago I propose to organize a fund raiser to improve OUR project, the project of OUR community, stuff we should be proud of, and the improve of the doc was one of the biggest issue... However nobody supported me. I think it helps when there is money as an incentive. People have limited time, and the issue comes up, how do you justify answering questions on StackOverflow for free when you could spend the same time going out to a nice dinner with your girlfriend/wife? I had $45,000 go through my Ask A WordPress Question website, and the money helped turn it into a very good WordPress resource. I have been thinking I could do the same for Clojure, with all the money (save for PayPal fees) going to the programmers who answer the questions. Not sure if it will work though, as these sites work best for communities that have a large number of beginners who are willing to basically pay for tutoring, and Clojure is nothing like that. Might work for Java, I guess, or maybe I could set it up for the whole JVM? I need to think about this some. But I agree, more documentation is needed. On Sep 29, 8:46 am, Simone Mosciatti mweb@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, September 29, 2012 1:48:10 PM UTC+2, Anthony Grimes wrote: I do not have access to the website in order to update it Somebody (Chris Granger ???) has the access, if you are actually maintaining it you should have the access too... Chris has things he wanted to see done first, *things I don't intend to do *, so it's mostly waiting on that. Like what ? Do you refer to the road map ? Just example and tutorial ? If there is something more would be cool to know... Maybe somebody has already wrote something, or he could work on it... I agree that documentation is the answer and not another monolithic framework. Documentation is always an issue, few times ago I propose to organize a fund raiser to improve OUR project, the project of OUR community, stuff we should be proud of, and the improve of the doc was one of the biggest issue... However nobody supported me. It isn't hard to use Compojure and other web development libraries. You can really use noir with just the few example in the website, although I had some previous (few) knowledge of web developing (django) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Well main points of the discussion are: 1. Noir is enough for start. 2. No framework is needed because you can combine some useful libraries and that's it. 3. Some agree that guides or wiki still needed but no luck with contributors so far. Ok have to think about that. Will ask some major people ( David Nolen and maybe Rich Hickey) what they think about that. пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 11:36:20 UTC+4 пользователь goracio написал: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Clojure web framework
Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:36 AM, goracio felix...@gmail.com wrote: So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). +1 I've been having great fun success with Noir and would hate to see it covered in moss and in a state of disrepair. If time permits, I'd be interested in participating, but time is not something of which I have plenty at the moment. But first of all, have you reached out to whoever is the maintainer today? Regards/Sven -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
No i don't. Project page for now https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir and it's updated 3 months ago. I guess project maintained by one person https://github.com/Raynes and i guess he does not have much time to do the work. Usage info still outdated If you want to include Noir in an already created leiningen project, simply add this to your dependencies: [noir 1.2.2] Project maintained mostly at https://clojars.org/noir because there is 1.3.0-beta10 version already and github just abandoned. On Friday, September 28, 2012 12:04:14 PM UTC+4, Sven Johansson wrote: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:36 AM, goracio feli...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). +1 I've been having great fun success with Noir and would hate to see it covered in moss and in a state of disrepair. If time permits, I'd be interested in participating, but time is not something of which I have plenty at the moment. But first of all, have you reached out to whoever is the maintainer today? Regards/Sven -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
On 28 September 2012 10:22, goracio felix...@gmail.com wrote: No i don't. Project page for now https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir and it's updated 3 months ago. I guess project maintained by one person https://github.com/Raynes and i guess he does not have much time to do the work. Usage info still outdated If you want to include Noir in an already created leiningen project, simply add this to your dependencies: [noir 1.2.2] Project maintained mostly at https://clojars.org/noir because there is 1.3.0-beta10 version already and github just abandoned. Just because the documentation is not up to date it does not mean that github has been abandoned. If you look here: https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/blob/master/project.clj you will see that the version on github is 1.3.0-beta10. -- Michael Wood esiot...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
If I may offer a couple of counterpoints: Compojure is slightly more popular than noir, at least based on the (perhaps faulty) measures of stars and forks on github, and used by count on http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com. There are good reasons why a Rails-esque framework has not yet caught on with Clojure programmers. Libraries frameworks, and all the goodness that flows from that. Given that perspective (smaller libraries made to compose trivially), there's really not enough work for 5-6 people to do on a single project. Better to have some very large number of people working together on a plurality of focused libraries. From the data we have[1], people are being quite successful with Clojure in web development contexts (anecdotally, using Compojure as well as Noir and others, too). Documentation around libraries (and elsewhere) is recognized as a primary weakness, but starting a new, larger web Framework project isn't an obvious solution to that very distributed problem. Finally, although it is not free, note that 'Clojure Programming'[2] provides a from scratch tutorial of how to use Ring, Compojure, and Enlive. Cheers, - Chas [1] http://cemerick.com/2012/07/19/2012-state-of-clojure-survey/ [2] http://www.clojurebook.com On Sep 28, 2012, at 3:36 AM, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure web framework
Documentation around libraries (and elsewhere) is recognized as a primary weakness, but starting a new, larger web Framework project isn't an obvious solution to that very distributed problem. Agree 100% with this. I think the various libraries are mostly at the right level, and are mostly being worked on a the right pace, but having a wiki-like place with tutorials and contributed project examples (or walk-throughs of open stuff already available) showing how all of the pieces can be used together (including both clj and cljs), and which pieces are right for various types of projects would be beneficial, I think. Like everyone else, time is not plentiful right now, but I'd be willing to contribute if someone has time to take the lead. - Mark On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Chas Emerick c...@cemerick.com wrote: If I may offer a couple of counterpoints: Compojure is slightly more popular than noir, at least based on the (perhaps faulty) measures of stars and forks on github, and used by count on http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com. There are good reasons why a Rails-esque framework has not yet caught on with Clojure programmers. Libraries frameworks, and all the goodness that flows from that. Given that perspective (smaller libraries made to compose trivially), there's really not enough work for 5-6 people to do on a single project. Better to have some very large number of people working together on a plurality of focused libraries. From the data we have[1], people are being quite successful with Clojure in web development contexts (anecdotally, using Compojure as well as Noir and others, too). Documentation around libraries (and elsewhere) is recognized as a primary weakness, but starting a new, larger web Framework project isn't an obvious solution to that very distributed problem. Finally, although it is not free, note that 'Clojure Programming'[2] provides a from scratch tutorial of how to use Ring, Compojure, and Enlive. Cheers, - Chas [1] http://cemerick.com/2012/07/19/2012-state-of-clojure-survey/ [2] http://www.clojurebook.com On Sep 28, 2012, at 3:36 AM, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first
Re: Clojure web framework
The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say:
lein new noir my-app
cd my-app
lein run
The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on
getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm
sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site
is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests).
I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel
free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works:
lein new fw1 my-app
cd my-app
lein run
(or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port)
Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but
there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on
the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the
CFML version :)
I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of
thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of
libraries to help build an application than to use frameworks. FW/1 uses
Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those
to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :)
Sean
On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote:
Hi
So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google
get these results, at least for me
1. noir
2. stackoverflow question 2008 year
3. stackoverflow question 2010 year
4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person)
5. Compojure ( routing dsl)
So there is no popular framework these days for clojure.
Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir
developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site
instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no
new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir
in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and
stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your
own.
It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If
language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain
more popularity.
Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community,
active development, industry standart web development framework. Good
testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css
managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework
itself which is good start point for newbies.
I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe
it can be very good platform for web development.
So what i suggest :
Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most
mature framework) .
Form working core group from 5-6 people.
Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir)
Make good site about it
Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version)
Make first version
Make couple good examples
Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on
github that will be online and updated frequently).
--
http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be
Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html
Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke
https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice
insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile
when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect
place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure
Web framework project.
Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place
where this thing can shine.
Let's discuss.
--
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--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
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Re: Clojure web framework
lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run Yes i already made pull request to update README file with this. Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on. How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices. How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that. What debbuging tools can i use. Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? So examples and good updated guides/online book does matter. There should be clear point about why Clojure and Clojure applied to web better then others, how it can solve problems better then others. How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that ? I am not talking about absence of any guides and recommendations about web dev in Clojure there are couple good examples but they are outdated. And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure. пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 19:37:05 UTC+4 пользователь Sean Corfield написал: The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests). I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works: lein new fw1 my-app cd my-app lein run (or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port) Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the CFML version :) I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of libraries to help build an application than to use frameworks. FW/1 uses Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :) Sean On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides
Re: Clojure web framework
Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on. How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices. How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that. What debbuging tools can i use. Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? These are all documentation issues. It's not that documentation doesn't exist, but I think one consolidated location telling telling the entire story of Clojure web development would be extremely helpful for people looking to answer the questions you have listed. And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure. I think this is really an issue of combining the right existing components, and knowing what those right components are for a given situation. On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:30 PM, goracio felix...@gmail.com wrote: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run Yes i already made pull request to update README file with this. Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on. How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices. How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that. What debbuging tools can i use. Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? So examples and good updated guides/online book does matter. There should be clear point about why Clojure and Clojure applied to web better then others, how it can solve problems better then others. How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that ? I am not talking about absence of any guides and recommendations about web dev in Clojure there are couple good examples but they are outdated. And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure. пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 19:37:05 UTC+4 пользователь Sean Corfield написал: The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say: lein new noir my-app cd my-app lein run The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests). I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works: lein new fw1 my-app cd my-app lein run (or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port) Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the CFML version :) I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of libraries to help build an application than to use frameworks. FW/1 uses Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :) Sean On Friday, September 28, 2012, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir
Re: Clojure web framework
There is already a rails like Clojure web framework which has been around for a while called Conjure: https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure Here is the wiki to get started: https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure/wiki The most recent release is out of date, but I have been working on an update. I've completed all of the new features of the update and now I'm running through tests and making sure the tutorial is still accurate. Unfortunately, I haven't had as much time to work on it as I would have liked recently. Though I'm using it at my work, not many others seem to be using it. Most people in the community prefer libraries over frameworks. I doubt you'll do much better with your own web framework if you don't somehow take that into account. After seeing a lot of interest in Drift (https://github.com/macourtney/drift) when I broke it out of Conjure into its own library, I broke Conjure into a group of libraries for the next release. If you do make your own web framework, you may want to use some parts of Conjure. -Matt On Friday, September 28, 2012 3:36:20 AM UTC-4, goracio wrote: Hi So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me 1. noir 2. stackoverflow question 2008 year 3. stackoverflow question 2010 year 4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person) 5. Compojure ( routing dsl) So there is no popular framework these days for clojure. Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. So what i suggest : Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) . Form working core group from 5-6 people. Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir) Make good site about it Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version) Make first version Make couple good examples Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently). -- http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project. Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine. Let's discuss. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Martin DeMello martindeme...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 11:23 PM, Abhishek Reddy arbs...@gmail.com wrote: More generally, the fragmented state of support -- too many separate and underused mailing lists, IRC channels, websites, each for small, composable components. This is an endemic problem, though, not one confined to clojure. I've seen it happen in pretty much every open source language community I've been on - once the language gets popular, people don't want library support cluttering the already-busy mailing list, but then it becomes a real nuisance to join one mailing list per library you use. Absolutely. However, the fine granularity at which Clojure's web libraries are fragmented is, I think, novel. The familiar problem is that much more painful (for now!). martin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Abhishek Reddy http://abhishek.geek.nz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sep 4, 5:45 am, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: Hey, Since Relevance is heavily investing in Clojure, do you think they are working on a Clojure web framework? Personally, I wish. Its also worth looking at Conjure if you're interested in a web framework: http://github.com/macourtney/Conjure Saul -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: [Weekend Chat] A secretly Clojure web framework?
On 9/3/10 11:45 PM, HB wrote: Hey, Since Relevance is heavily investing in Clojure, do you think they are working on a Clojure web framework? Personally, I wish. We aren't currently working on creating a new web framework, but I am working to make the web development experience a little better by helping out where I can. I have spent my time working with compojure and very recently with sandbar. There's a fair amount of work to be done in this area, but there are some great people who have already dedicated time to it. Cheers, Aaron -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
My wish is vanquished :) But I really wish if Relevance will work on a web framework since it is in a unique position to achieve this (having the brightest Clojure folks). I read that Relevance embracing the 20% principle like Google, this is also will help you Relevance folks. Have a nice day all. On Sep 4, 4:32 pm, Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/3/10 11:45 PM, HB wrote: Hey, Since Relevance is heavily investing in Clojure, do you think they are working on a Clojure web framework? Personally, I wish. We aren't currently working on creating a new web framework, but I am working to make the web development experience a little better by helping out where I can. I have spent my time working with compojure and very recently with sandbar. There's a fair amount of work to be done in this area, but there are some great people who have already dedicated time to it. Cheers, Aaron -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sep 4, 8:51 pm, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: My wish is vanquished :) But I really wish if Relevance will work on a web framework since it is in a unique position to achieve this (having the brightest Clojure folks). I read that Relevance embracing the 20% principle like Google, this is also will help you Relevance folks. Have a nice day all. HB, I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. There are libraries, such as: 1. Ring+Clout+Compojure, Ring+Conjure, Ring+Moustache etc as web controllers 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff 3. c.c.sql, clj-record, ClojureQL, SQLRat for relational databases 4. Sandbar, Conjure, Compojure-REST for additional web stuff 5. clj-http, clj-apache-http for client-side HTTP 6. Lein-WAR, Maven-Clojure plugin WAR artifact for production deployment What do you think is missing? Development-environment/IDE integration? REST support? Caching, security, SEO, AJAX? WebSockets? Ready-made web- UI components for rapid prototyping? Feel free to describe in detail. Regards, Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
What's missing, frankly, is a coherent design. Lots of pieces are there, but they don't always fit together well. As one trivial example, we discovered this week that Sandbar's user authentication doesn't work with Ring's keyword-parameter-names middleware. But these problems will be ironed out over time. The best thing we can do for Clojure web development right now is start developing web applications in Clojure, find the pieces that are missing, and fill them in. Rails wasn't built in a day, it was the consummation of years of experience, distilling best practices and patterns into a framework. Clojure is a very different language from Ruby, and we will have to grow our own best practices. -S On Sep 4, 1:26 pm, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 4, 8:51 pm, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: My wish is vanquished :) But I really wish if Relevance will work on a web framework since it is in a unique position to achieve this (having the brightest Clojure folks). I read that Relevance embracing the 20% principle like Google, this is also will help you Relevance folks. Have a nice day all. HB, I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. There are libraries, such as: 1. Ring+Clout+Compojure, Ring+Conjure, Ring+Moustache etc as web controllers 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff 3. c.c.sql, clj-record, ClojureQL, SQLRat for relational databases 4. Sandbar, Conjure, Compojure-REST for additional web stuff 5. clj-http, clj-apache-http for client-side HTTP 6. Lein-WAR, Maven-Clojure plugin WAR artifact for production deployment What do you think is missing? Development-environment/IDE integration? REST support? Caching, security, SEO, AJAX? WebSockets? Ready-made web- UI components for rapid prototyping? Feel free to describe in detail. Regards, Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.comwrote: I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. There are libraries, such as: 1. Ring+Clout+Compojure, Ring+Conjure, Ring+Moustache etc as web controllers 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff Documentation. Especially for integrating various combinations of those libraries, and for deployment. More generally, the fragmented state of support -- too many separate and underused mailing lists, IRC channels, websites, each for small, composable components. There is now a clojure-web-dev mailing list and a #clojure-web IRC channel, but I'd like to see a similarly overarching website too, which documents broader stories like integration, development workflows, deployment to various platforms, etc. 4. Sandbar, Conjure, Compojure-REST for additional web stuff They are not sufficiently complete or mature yet. For example, a lot of people want a pre-cooked authentication API, and only Sandbar comes close (as of last month). Regards, Shantanu -- Abhishek Reddy http://abhishek.geek.nz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
26 pm, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. I think the packages that exist are exciting and that some of them represent a step forwards even when compared to more established languages. However, much that I hate frameworks (personal opinion not meant to offend), they are very good for plugins that touch different layers of an application (e.g data storage, routing and HTML generation). I can't see a way things like Django style user management or admin screens can be done by libraries. Frameworks are also very good for rapid prototyping. You usually pay for such power with inflexibility but Rails and Django seem to hit a sweet spot where you can develop a website fast and still run a business on them. Saul -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff Since cfmljure got a mention... Would folks be interested in a ready-to-run Jetty-based download that ran CFML and Clojure out-of-the-box? It would be based on the Railo 'Express' package - just download, unzip and run - Railo is a fast, free, open source CFML engine (a JBoss Community project) and the download is currently ~35MB without a JRE (but including Jetty). I'm probably going to put one together anyway for the CFML community to try out and get them exposed to Clojure but I thought I'd mention it here for a bit of cross-fertilization... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sep 5, 12:25 am, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff Since cfmljure got a mention... Would folks be interested in a ready-to-run Jetty-based download that ran CFML and Clojure out-of-the-box? +1 I know nothing about CFML but the idea looks neat to me. Lower the barrier to get started quickly, the better it gets I suppose. Pre- included documentation and some demo code should be nice to have. It would be based on the Railo 'Express' package - just download, unzip and run - Railo is a fast, free, open source CFML engine (a JBoss Community project) and the download is currently ~35MB without a JRE (but including Jetty). Is it possible to push the deps (Railo Express, for example) to Clojars or a Maven repo and just put up a Lein based download or GitHub URL? Just an idea. Regards, Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
The best thing we can do for Clojure web development right now is start developing web applications in Clojure, find the pieces that are missing, and fill them in. This is the best advise I have heard in a while. We need to just start doing it. If something that we need is missing then there is a great opportunity for you to contribute. If you try to use a library and find a problem, then either fix it or let the author know about the problem. As the author of Sandbar, I wasn't even aware of with-keyword- params but because Stuart and Aaron ran into this problem, I was made aware of it and happily fixed it. New libraries tend to solve the exact problems of the author so if you can use something in a different environment and then provide feedback, you are performing a great service. Clojure is a very different language from Ruby, and we will have to grow our own best practices. Finding our own best practices is the big task ahead of us. The flexibility of Compojure and Clojure can lead to vastly different ways of doing things. I think this is a point where Relevance and Clojure/ core can show some real leadership. They will be doing a lot more Clojure projects than the average developer over the coming years and they have some of the top Clojure people. We will be able to learn a lot from their experience. I can't see a way things like Django style user management or admin screens can be done by libraries. Frameworks are also very good for rapid prototyping. You usually pay for such power with inflexibility but Rails and Django seem to hit a sweet spot where you can develop a website fast and still run a business on them. I think that this can be done in libraries. It will not be easy but it will be much easier that doing it in Python or Ruby and will come at less of a cost. Why? Because, if you are doing things right in Clojure, your data is not hidden away in Objects behind mini- languages. This makes it much easier to come up with generic solutions to problems. For example, in 90% of my applications I need the same exact user management component. I have created a way to simply add this component to my application by adding a set of parametrized routes. This gives me a paged table that can be filtered and sorted as well as forms for adding, editing and deleting. All I need to implement is a set of functions that define how to work with the data. I will release this at some point but it still needs a little work to be generally useful. Final thought: As we move forward I think we need to be careful about wanting a framework. We do need to have a common base that we can all work from, which I believe we have in Ring/Compojure, but we don't need to have something like Rails. A framework tries to make everything easy. I believe this is folly. After using a framework for too long, you start to forget about all the parts that the framework hides from you and this diminishes your ability to solve problems in the best possible way. When starting to solve a new problem, I want to start thinking at the lowest level that I am willing to work, then add libraries for the things that I want to make easy. We need to have a common base, best practices and good libraries. Brenton -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
Thank you all guys, I'm really happy and proud to be around. Shantanu, Stuart, Abhishek and Brenton said every thing I was thinking about and much more: Lack of coherent design, sometimes it is really hard to get help, documentation is rare. I don't know even how to getting started with Compojure to build a web application. I definitely agree with Brenton, I'm thinking about a minimal framework (first things come to mind): 1. Clean and friendly URLs (like Django and Rails). 2. Templates neutral. 3. Persistence neutral. 4. Ajax lib neutral (like Django). 5. Definitely not component-based. 6. Rest support. (Btw Brenton, your post worth its weight in gold, thank your for writing). And yes Sean, this ideas looks amazing. I really want to help and participate in one of these projects you all mentioned but I'm pretty new to Clojure and I don't know how I can fit. On Sep 4, 8:26 pm, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 4, 8:51 pm, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: My wish is vanquished :) But I really wish if Relevance will work on a web framework since it is in a unique position to achieve this (having the brightest Clojure folks). I read that Relevance embracing the 20% principle like Google, this is also will help you Relevance folks. Have a nice day all. HB, I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. There are libraries, such as: 1. Ring+Clout+Compojure, Ring+Conjure, Ring+Moustache etc as web controllers 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff 3. c.c.sql, clj-record, ClojureQL, SQLRat for relational databases 4. Sandbar, Conjure, Compojure-REST for additional web stuff 5. clj-http, clj-apache-http for client-side HTTP 6. Lein-WAR, Maven-Clojure plugin WAR artifact for production deployment What do you think is missing? Development-environment/IDE integration? REST support? Caching, security, SEO, AJAX? WebSockets? Ready-made web- UI components for rapid prototyping? Feel free to describe in detail. Regards, Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
Here are some resources to get you started with Ring/Compojure web development. http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/03/clojure-web-development-ring.html http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/07/develop-deploy-clojure-web-applications.html http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/08/clojure-rest-api.html http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/ Examples can also be very helpful. Very simple examples http://github.com/abedra/clojure-web http://github.com/brentonashworth/sandbar-examples Larger example http://github.com/briancarper/cow-blog Brenton On Sep 4, 7:30 pm, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you all guys, I'm really happy and proud to be around. Shantanu, Stuart, Abhishek and Brenton said every thing I was thinking about and much more: Lack of coherent design, sometimes it is really hard to get help, documentation is rare. I don't know even how to getting started with Compojure to build a web application. I definitely agree with Brenton, I'm thinking about a minimal framework (first things come to mind): 1. Clean and friendly URLs (like Django and Rails). 2. Templates neutral. 3. Persistence neutral. 4. Ajax lib neutral (like Django). 5. Definitely not component-based. 6. Rest support. (Btw Brenton, your post worth its weight in gold, thank your for writing). And yes Sean, this ideas looks amazing. I really want to help and participate in one of these projects you all mentioned but I'm pretty new to Clojure and I don't know how I can fit. On Sep 4, 8:26 pm, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 4, 8:51 pm, HB hubaghd...@gmail.com wrote: My wish is vanquished :) But I really wish if Relevance will work on a web framework since it is in a unique position to achieve this (having the brightest Clojure folks). I read that Relevance embracing the 20% principle like Google, this is also will help you Relevance folks. Have a nice day all. HB, I am interested to know what deficiencies do you see in present state of affairs in Clojure web development space. It would be something useful to discuss. There are libraries, such as: 1. Ring+Clout+Compojure, Ring+Conjure, Ring+Moustache etc as web controllers 2. Enlive, Hiccup, Gulliver, Clj-StringTemplate, Cfmljure etc for web template stuff 3. c.c.sql, clj-record, ClojureQL, SQLRat for relational databases 4. Sandbar, Conjure, Compojure-REST for additional web stuff 5. clj-http, clj-apache-http for client-side HTTP 6. Lein-WAR, Maven-Clojure plugin WAR artifact for production deployment What do you think is missing? Development-environment/IDE integration? REST support? Caching, security, SEO, AJAX? WebSockets? Ready-made web- UI components for rapid prototyping? Feel free to describe in detail. Regards, Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: A secretly Clojure web framework?
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 11:23 PM, Abhishek Reddy arbs...@gmail.com wrote: More generally, the fragmented state of support -- too many separate and underused mailing lists, IRC channels, websites, each for small, composable components. This is an endemic problem, though, not one confined to clojure. I've seen it happen in pretty much every open source language community I've been on - once the language gets popular, people don't want library support cluttering the already-busy mailing list, but then it becomes a real nuisance to join one mailing list per library you use. martin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
[Weekend Chat] A secretly Clojure web framework?
Hey, Since Relevance is heavily investing in Clojure, do you think they are working on a Clojure web framework? Personally, I wish. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
On Mar 16, 11:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? I suspect what people think of as an ideal web framework will vary greatly. My ideal web framework would contain the following: 1. Bare-bones simplicity 2. Concise, but explicit 3. Functional - little or no side effects 4. Need to know - call functions with only data they need, and no more 5. RESTful HTTP 6. Inline HTML generation - no separate templates 7. Data storage agnostic - not tied to relational DBs 8. Configuration done in Clojure - no XML That's what I'm trying to achieve with Compojure, at least :) - James --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
Hi Jeffrey, I was recently thinking of adding support for https://grizzly.dev.java.net/ in http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master. Just need some time to get my head around compojure. Cheers, Hubert. On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Jeffrey Straszheim straszheimjeff...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to see something built around very-high scalability, using NIO and thread pools and such. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Sean francoisdev...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if some of the design inputs make sense, specifically Spring and Hibernate. Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. Point 3 - I'd follow Rails example and use strong defaults, and resort to XML only when necessary. Point 4 - Sounds good. Point 5 - Have you looked into compojure? It does a really good job of turning s-expressions into HTML. Point 5 (the second one) - See compojure again. Point 6 7 - This is where a lot of work is to be done. I'm not sure how to respond right now. I'll think about it. Point 8 - This is why clojure is awesome. I'll leave this as an exercise to the user :) Point 9 - Yeah, this would be a great feature. That's my thoughts. On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
I hadn't heard of Grizzly before. Thanks for the pointer (er..., reference, or whatever we're calling them these days). On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 5:31 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk neo...@kungfoo.pl wrote: Hi Jeffrey, I was recently thinking of adding support for https://grizzly.dev.java.net/ in http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master. Just need some time to get my head around compojure. Cheers, Hubert. On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Jeffrey Straszheim straszheimjeff...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to see something built around very-high scalability, using NIO and thread pools and such. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Sean francoisdev...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if some of the design inputs make sense, specifically Spring and Hibernate. Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. Point 3 - I'd follow Rails example and use strong defaults, and resort to XML only when necessary. Point 4 - Sounds good. Point 5 - Have you looked into compojure? It does a really good job of turning s-expressions into HTML. Point 5 (the second one) - See compojure again. Point 6 7 - This is where a lot of work is to be done. I'm not sure how to respond right now. I'll think about it. Point 8 - This is why clojure is awesome. I'll leave this as an exercise to the user :) Point 9 - Yeah, this would be a great feature. That's my thoughts. On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
Personally, I've been noodling about what a Tapestry/Clojure hybrid might look like. I'd advise that you take a peek at Lift, a functional web framework built on Scala. I have some ideas about what a component based framework would look like in a function world (note: this would be leaving JSPs and the like far in the dust, and moving toward a higher-order solution more like Tapestry). On the output side, I see the templates being represented as nested DOM structures, and components would operate by transforming the DOM (or a subtree of the DOM) according to their own template and code. I think the request handling side of things would be a bit more traditional and action based, with routing functions that would locate handler functions of some form, via some mix of naming conventions and start-up registrations. I can definitely envision areas where the (binding) construct would be awesome for rewiring the processing of a request for specific needs, things that in Tapestry require active filter objects contributed statically into global pipelines. but I've still got a lot of ideas for T5 to work on first :-) Web frameworks are a tricky beast (I'm eight+ years into writing Tapestry) there are aspects that line up beautifully with stateless functions, but when you introduce the benefits of components, you also bring in a lot that benefits from stateful, mutable, internal state. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:17 PM, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
I'd love to see something built around very-high scalability, using NIO and thread pools and such. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Sean francoisdev...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if some of the design inputs make sense, specifically Spring and Hibernate. Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. Point 3 - I'd follow Rails example and use strong defaults, and resort to XML only when necessary. Point 4 - Sounds good. Point 5 - Have you looked into compojure? It does a really good job of turning s-expressions into HTML. Point 5 (the second one) - See compojure again. Point 6 7 - This is where a lot of work is to be done. I'm not sure how to respond right now. I'll think about it. Point 8 - This is why clojure is awesome. I'll leave this as an exercise to the user :) Point 9 - Yeah, this would be a great feature. That's my thoughts. On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
On Mar 16, 7:52 pm, Jeffrey Straszheim straszheimjeff...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to see something built around very-high scalability, using NIO and thread pools and such. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Sean francoisdev...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if some of the design inputs make sense, specifically Spring and Hibernate. Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. Point 3 - I'd follow Rails example and use strong defaults, and resort to XML only when necessary. Point 4 - Sounds good. Point 5 - Have you looked into compojure? It does a really good job of turning s-expressions into HTML. Point 5 (the second one) - See compojure again. Point 6 7 - This is where a lot of work is to be done. I'm not sure how to respond right now. I'll think about it. Point 8 - This is why clojure is awesome. I'll leave this as an exercise to the user :) Point 9 - Yeah, this would be a great feature. That's my thoughts. On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Assuming a person is able to re-engineer what Spring has already done including the simplistic dependency injection oriented web framework. For me, I just to hate to ignore all that work has been done as well as making it easier for integrating 'this' framework with pre-existing code. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. That sql library does come close to hibernate. Hibernate works with 20 or more different, supports different caching
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
Okay, if you have to work with something rpe-existing that makes more sense. My main point is that if I were started from scratch, I'd do it different. On Mar 16, 8:12 pm, Berlin Brown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 16, 7:52 pm, Jeffrey Straszheim straszheimjeff...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to see something built around very-high scalability, using NIO and thread pools and such. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Sean francoisdev...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure if some of the design inputs make sense, specifically Spring and Hibernate. Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional language either. The SQL library in clojure-contrib lets you load a map, and you can create way more interesting queries with clojure than hibernate. S-expressions are that powerful. Point 3 - I'd follow Rails example and use strong defaults, and resort to XML only when necessary. Point 4 - Sounds good. Point 5 - Have you looked into compojure? It does a really good job of turning s-expressions into HTML. Point 5 (the second one) - See compojure again. Point 6 7 - This is where a lot of work is to be done. I'm not sure how to respond right now. I'll think about it. Point 8 - This is why clojure is awesome. I'll leave this as an exercise to the user :) Point 9 - Yeah, this would be a great feature. That's my thoughts. On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? 1. Based on Spring Framework for middleware: Reason: there are years and years and years of development spent on spring and there are many things done right. If I were integrating with any other third party libraries, I would use spring. Spring is added to my framework. 2. Based on Hibernate for ORM mapping: Reason: the defacto standard for ORM mapping with Java. And also used by NHibernate. There is a lot of support for most popular databases. 3. Clojure/Lisp based configuration AND default XML configurations. This has become the standard way to configure a J2EE web application including spring and hibernate. But I would like a lisp oriented configuration. 4. Easy mapping to URLs. I like python's approach for URL mapping 5. Clojure based, framework based server pages AND JSPs. I have always hated some aspects of JSP and ASPs, etc, etc. They are just too complicated. I would want to use Clojure code within the framework oriented server page and other predefined tags. 5. Lift like reusable server pages. Lift has an interesting approach for resuing the same page. E.g. you have an if-else statement within the page. If request == GET ...render this if request == POST ...render this. if URL == 'abc.html' .. render this. I want to embed this in my framework. You only touch one page, but you get different outputs depending on the request method or URL, etc, etc. 6. Use of Clojure syntactic sugar -- TO BE DETERMINED. There is the ability to use powerful Clojure constructs with this framework but I haven't figured out how yet. 7. Better integration of CSS, Javascript, HTML. A lot of a web application still resides with the client side. I have yet to see an web framework that addresses client development (besides GWT). Maybe something as simple as server page tags for CSS? Javascript? 8. Additional third party libraries: Lucene, iText, jFreeChart, optional Terracotta integration Other optional/additional thoughts. 9. Clear separation between back-end and front-end layers Point 1 - I've found the strength of Spring to be making up for the weaknesses of Java. Once you have first class functions, macros, and multi-methods (to name a few), Spring doesn't bring much to the table any more. Add in a few Unix utilities like cron and others, you remove the rest of the features. Assuming a person is able to re-engineer what Spring has already done including the simplistic dependency injection oriented web framework. For me, I just to hate to ignore all that work has been done as well as making it easier for integrating 'this' framework with pre-existing code. Point 2 - As for Hibernate, ORM doesn't make much sense with a functional
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
I'm mostly a front-end UI person with crazy amounts of JS experience so most of my input will be from that stand point. 1. I agree with Sean on this one. No need to bring in middleware that can't be expressed in 10X-20X less code in pure Clojure. 2. The framework should allow for any backend (even if it means in memory). I'm currently interested in CouchDB. 3. Sure. 4. Yup. Compojure handles this nicely. If I never have to look at an Apache httpd.conf file again I won't shed a tear. 5.1 Hmm I hate templates pages, I think Enlive is a very good start to a real future. Template with CSS selectors. Mixing language into HTML is an atrocity which much be eliminated once and for all. Good HTML fragment manipulation is a must. I see pure HTML+CSS fragments created by a designer. The coder draws up a template which targets where values will go in the HTML via CSS3 selectors. Voila! Synchronizing design and code becomes trivial overnight. 5.2. Compojure 6. This is going to be big, it will demolish what other people are doing. 7. See below. 8. Yup. 9. Agreed. I've been seriously investigating porting cl-cont which is the basis for weblocks (working on it right now fingers crossed). The only truly serious continuation based framework is Seaside and its developers have been able to accomplish truly amazing things. With continuations you can define arbitrarily complex UIs. However, I think Seaside overemphasizes the continuation part. The framework should allow for restful delivery as well as stateful interactions. Also, weblocks got it wrong by auto-generating HTML- designers need to be be able create markup and CSS, not just CSS. Seaside also gets this wrong. JS integration with existing JS Frameworks is a must. The recently uploaded parenscript clone looks like a good start for allowing developers to code JS against widgets using such a continuation based framework. Calling JS suddenly becomes like calling Java from Clojure code. Clojure also has something going for which is BIG that you don't get from many frameworks. You can ssh tunnel into the running application server and debug a live instance. For example, currently I have compojure running on the server, I connect to it from my local emacs and can manipulate the server via the remote REPL. I can recompile functions on the server on the fly. Imagine this whole system hooked up with a Comet server (SymbolicWeb did this first). As you modify the server, changes can be propagated back to the client without refreshing (godsend for debugging). Then imagine this entire UI system hooked up to a robust backend of your choosing ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? Nothing much to add, but I'm doing well with a combination of Restlet, StringTemplate, Derby, and Solr. After a couple of years with Rails, I felt that I wanted to work closer to the metal, with the metal, in this case, being HTTP. Javascript/CSS-generation was more trouble than it was worth. -Stuart Sierra --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Clojure Web Framework, what I want to add
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Stuart Sierra the.stuart.sie...@gmail.comwrote: On Mar 16, 7:17 pm, BerlinBrown berlin.br...@gmail.com wrote: After many years (decade) of web development, here are the things that I want in a framework, mostly based in clojure: What do you think and what you add. This is ambitious and just a ideas of what I would add. What would you want from your ideal framework? Nothing much to add, but I'm doing well with a combination of Restlet, StringTemplate, Derby, and Solr. After a couple of years with Rails, I felt that I wanted to work closer to the metal, with the metal, in this case, being HTTP. Javascript/CSS-generation was more trouble than it was worth. -Stuart Sierra Stuart, thanks for mentioning your stack. I've played with StringTemplate from Clojure, but I hadn't seen it in use in a project before. Your implementation is great, and at 88 lines of mainly imports and tests it's a great example of using Java (and clojure-contrib). Stringify the keys and away you go! Shawn --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
