Clojursist Together Q3 2023 Funding Round Open for Applications

[Kathleen Davis]

Hi folks, 
Clojurists Together has opened its funding round for Q3  2023 
applications.  The deadline  is July 20th.  Find more information  and  the 
application on our website <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>
. 

We'll be funding 8 projects for a total of $44K USD this go around.  
Members weighed in priorities on the June survey. You'll see some great 
(and thoughtful) input here 
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/call-for-new-proposals.-june-survey-results./>
. 

If you have not applied before - the process is easy. We're looking forward 
to hearing from you! 

Kathy Davis and the Clojurists Together team. 


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Clojure team / Open to new projects

['Marek Rinko' via Clojure]

Hi, fellow Clojurians, 

At Flexiana.com, we are open to new projects again.

We've been working on Clojure projects for the past six years and have 
helped create some pretty cool stuff. For the last two years, for example, 
we have been working with  Reifyhealth.com - Reify Health is a healthcare 
technology company that uses Clojure to develop their platform, which helps 
to connect healthcare providers with the latest research and clinical trial 
information.

*Our Tech-stack:*
Clojure, ClojureScript (re-frame, reagent), Golang, Scala, Haskell, Ruby, 
Java, JS, Node.Js, Angular, React,  AWS, ElasticSearch, PostgreSQL, 
GraphQL, NoSQL, Kubernetes, Docker, MongoDB and others.

*
Our Clojure Projects:*
www.Starcity.com, www.Crossbeam.com, www.ReifyHealth.com, 
www.BareSquare.com, www.Data42.de

We're currently on the lookout for a long-term project or cooperation again 
and would love to chat about any exciting opportunities. We like to stick 
with projects for a while, usually between a year and two years.

As a team, we're great at working independently or in close cooperation 
with your core team and are always in communication through Slack. We have 
regular stand-ups, plannings, demos, and other meetings, and we are 
familiar with tools like Trello, Toggl, Confluence, Jira, Bitbucket or 
Github, and Gitlab.

If you need any help or advice with your project, drop us a message. I am 
happy to get in touch.

Thank you, 

Marek Rinko 

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HOP, the open platform for Clojure(Script) developers

[Bingen Galartza Iparragirre]

Announcing HOP (gethop.dev), an open source #devops tool for 
Clojure(Script) developers. HOP is an opinionated yet flexible RAD platform 
and a tool for easily deploying to the cloud (AWS for now, on premises and 
other public clouds in the pipeline). 

We have created a #hop channel on the Clojurians Slack for any questions 
and feedback.

We have leveraged this platform at Magnet (magnet.coop) for years for our 
own projects so we hope it’s useful for the community!

Tutorial link: https://youtu.be/x1g9Pr6kSJU

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Call for Participation: ´Virtual BOB 2022 (March 11, registration open)

[Michael Sperber]

=
   BOB 2022
  Conference
 “What happens if we simply use what’s best?”
   March 11, 2022, online
   0100+UTC
   https://bobkonf.de/2022/

   Program: https://bobkonf.de/2022/program.html
  Registration: https://bobkonf.de/2022/program.html
=
   
BOB conference is a place for developers, architects, and decision-makers
to explore technologies beyond the mainstream in software development
and to find the best tools available to software developers today. Our
goal is for all participants of BOB to return home with new insights
that enable them to improve their own software development
experience.

The program features 14 talks and 8 tutorials on current topics:

https://bobkonf.de/2022/program.html

The subject range includes functional programming, effects,
distributed programming, formal methods, generative art, event-driven
systems, the human brain, Haskell, Python, Scala, Lua, Clojure,
Erlang, Nix, and others.

Derek Dreyer will give the keynote talk.

Due to COVID-related risks, BOB will take place online, entirely
within a Gather Town virtual world.  We've placed special emphasis on
enabling social, casual interaction, in addition to our stellar
program.

Registration is open - early bird  student tickets are €5, regular
tickets are €10.  Early-bird discounts apply until February 18.  As
always, grants are available for members of groups underrepresented in
tech:

https://bobkonf.de/2022/program.html

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Open-sourced Clojure libraries for analytics and ML

[Denis Laprise]

Hi

We recently open-sourced some work our team did over the last few years at 
Curbside / Rakuten and I wanted to share it with the Clojure community. The 
projects are listed at https://rakutenrewards.github.io/ and consist of the 
following:

clojure-beam: Apache Beam clojure wrapper
clojure-bandit: A multi-armed bandit library
clojure-bigtable: Clojure client for Google BigTable
clojure-jwt: Clojure wrapper for Nimbus JOSE + JWT
clojure-ml: Library to train, optimize models and use them to make 
predictions

Cheers
Denis

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Who wants to join a cool open source project?

[Daniel Slutsky]

At Scicloj <https://twitter.com/scicloj>, a community for building a 
Clojure stack of libraries for data science, we currently have a few 
ongoing and planned open-source projects in Clojure and Clojurescript.

The current focus is mainly on data wrangling, data visualization, and 
tooling, so I believe many Clojurians would find some parts of this 
interesting and useful.

We like to think as a group and support each other, usually at the 
Clojurians Zulip and in small meetings. This allows for a sense of 
relevance in what we do, which is verified by continuous conversation and 
experimentation. This matters so much, with all the doubts and 
uncertainties which are part of building something new.

Personally, my first serious open-source experiences have been at Scicloj 
community, and I appreciate so much the support I've received from some of 
the more experienced library authors involved in this community.

Soon a more informative post will shed more light on the current challenges.

In the meantime, if anybody wants to try being part of this, let us talk. 
I'll be happy to chat and tell more.

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Clojurists Together funding applications are open for Q3 2020

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

You know the drill, Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> 
is funding open source Clojure tools, libraries, and documentation. 
Applications are open until 6th August, 2021, midnight PST.

Our members would like us 
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/q3-2021-survey-results/> to focus 
on developer tools, so if you work on Clojure developer tools, please apply 
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>!

There's a few changes this time around. You can see the full details on the 
announcement 
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/the-next-phase-of-clojurists-together/>,
 
but briefly:

   - People now apply for $1k/$2k experimental/small projects, or $9k 
   larger projects
   - Funding can now be taken over 1-12 months, instead of only over 3 
   months
   - You have 2 months to start after you get selected to give you time to 
   prepare

We're also doing a new type of long-term funding where our members will 
vote on developers to receive $1.5k/month for 12 months. The recipients 
won't have any specific requirements, they'll just keep doing the great 
work they're already doing.

We currently have the funds to support 3 developers for long-term 
fellowships, but we'd like to get to 6. To do so we’ll need new developer 
and company members to help support this. If you’re a company that relies 
on Clojure, please consider joining Clojurists Together.

Thanks, Daniel.

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Clojurists Together Open Source Community Survey

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

Clojurists Together is surveying the open source Clojure community. We want 
to hear how we can best serve the needs of open source Clojure developers.

If you write OSS Clojure, please look at filling out this survey with your 
thoughts. The more people we can hear from, the better our decision making 
will be.

https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/listening-to-maintainers-for-the-next-phase-of-clojurists-together/

Clojurists Together members are welcome to fill out this survey, they'll 
also get a private link to a members survey too.

Thanks, Daniel.

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Re: Cognitect and Nubank are Sponsoring Open Source Developers

[Peter Strömberg]

This is fantastic. What an excellent way to show the way!

The Calva team is almost fainting from realizing we are both sponsored by
the very company which creates Clojure. Wow, just wow!

Den tis 15 dec. 2020 kl 18:09 skrev Alex Miller <
alex.mil...@thinkrelevance.com>:

> https://cognitect.com/blog/2020/12/15/sponsoring-open-source-developers
>
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>

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Cognitect and Nubank are Sponsoring Open Source Developers

[Alex Miller]

https://cognitect.com/blog/2020/12/15/sponsoring-open-source-developers

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Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project from August-October 2020

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> is about to award
another round of funding to support open source Clojure projects. *Applications
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> close on Tuesday 28th
July.*

Clojurists Together is an organisation, dedicated to funding and supporting
open source software, infrastructure, and documentation that is important
to the Clojure and ClojureScript community.

*We plan to fund three projects at $3,000 USD/month for 3 months ($9,000
USD total).*

Previously we have supported projects
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/projects/> like Neanderthal, Aleph,
Fireplace, cljdoc, Shadow CLJS, CIDER, Figwheel, clj-http and several more.

We encourage open source maintainers to apply
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> for funding, especially
if you work on one of the projects or areas that our members highlighted in
the survey.

If you work at a company that uses Clojure, talk to your engineering
manager about supporting Clojurists Together. We've been able to support
projects thanks to the generosity of our developer and company members
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/>. The more support we have,
the more that we can do to improve things for the entire Clojure community.

Thanks, Daniel.

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Opportunity to help students contribute to your open source projects

[learner-forever]

Hello All,
Check this https://fellowship.mlh.io/maintainers.
Since no Clojure projects applied for GSOC or Outreachy this year, check
out MLH fellowship where you can mentor students to contribute to your own
open-source projects.

cheers!
Noor Afshan Fathima

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Re: Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project from May-July 2020

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

I'm happy to announce that this quarter Clojurists Together (with the help
of our members) are supporting re-frame with Isaac Johnston, Practicalli
with John Stevenson, CIDER/nREPL/Orchard with Bozhidar Batsov, and Figwheel
with Bruce Hauman.

You can see more details at
https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/q2-2020-funding-announcement/.

Thanks to all of our members <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/> for
your support, we couldn't do it without you.

Daniel and the Clojurists Together committee

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 8:37 PM Daniel Compton <
daniel.compton.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> is about to
> award another round of funding to support open source Clojure projects. 
> *Applications
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> close on Thursday, April
> 9th at 11:59pm PST.*
>
> Clojurists Together is an organisation, dedicated to funding and
> supporting open source software, infrastructure, and documentation that is
> important to the Clojure and ClojureScript community.
>
> *We plan to fund four projects at $3,000 USD/month for 3 months ($9,000
> USD total).*
>
> Previously we have supported projects
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/projects/> like Neanderthal, Aleph,
> Fireplace, cljdoc, Shadow CLJS, CIDER, Figwheel, clj-http and several more.
>
> We surveyed
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/q2-2020-survey-results/> our
> members recently and asked them what they wanted us to focus on.
>
> The main things our members were interested in:
>
>- Error messages
>- Documentation
>- Developer experience tools
>- Build tooling
>- IDE support
>- Test tooling
>- Linters
>- Profilers
>- Data analysis/processing frameworks
>
> If you work on any of these kinds of projects, please look at applying for
> funding.
>
> Figwheel, clj-kondo, Kaocha, Reitit, Shadow CLJS, re-frame, Aleph,
> Manifold, Calva, Cloverage, Chlorine, Conjure, Malli, clj-goes-fast were
> all projects mentioned that our members were interested in supporting.
>
> We encourage open source maintainers to apply
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> for funding, especially
> if you work on one of the projects or areas that our members highlighted.
>
> If you work at a company that uses Clojure, talk to your engineering
> manager about supporting Clojurists Together. We've been able to support
> projects thanks to the generosity of our developer and company members
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/>. The more support we have,
> the more that we can do to improve things for the entire Clojure community.
>
> Thanks, Daniel.
>

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Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project from May-July 2020

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> is about to award
another round of funding to support open source Clojure projects. *Applications
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> close on Thursday, April
9th at 11:59pm PST.*

Clojurists Together is an organisation, dedicated to funding and supporting
open source software, infrastructure, and documentation that is important
to the Clojure and ClojureScript community.

*We plan to fund four projects at $3,000 USD/month for 3 months ($9,000 USD
total).*

Previously we have supported projects
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/projects/> like Neanderthal, Aleph,
Fireplace, cljdoc, Shadow CLJS, CIDER, Figwheel, clj-http and several more.

We surveyed
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/q2-2020-survey-results/> our
members recently and asked them what they wanted us to focus on.

The main things our members were interested in:

   - Error messages
   - Documentation
   - Developer experience tools
   - Build tooling
   - IDE support
   - Test tooling
   - Linters
   - Profilers
   - Data analysis/processing frameworks

If you work on any of these kinds of projects, please look at applying for
funding.

Figwheel, clj-kondo, Kaocha, Reitit, Shadow CLJS, re-frame, Aleph,
Manifold, Calva, Cloverage, Chlorine, Conjure, Malli, clj-goes-fast were
all projects mentioned that our members were interested in supporting.

We encourage open source maintainers to apply
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> for funding, especially
if you work on one of the projects or areas that our members highlighted.

If you work at a company that uses Clojure, talk to your engineering
manager about supporting Clojurists Together. We've been able to support
projects thanks to the generosity of our developer and company members
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/>. The more support we have,
the more that we can do to improve things for the entire Clojure community.

Thanks, Daniel.

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Re: Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project

[Matching Socks]

I am glad Clojurists Together has materialized community support for Calva 
(VSCode) - from two angles at once - top-down to Calva and bottom-up via 
CIDER, which shares its orchard of features.  Nonetheless, the Calva quest 
is quixotic.  The supposedly customizable Integrated Development 
Environment, time and again, has proved a difficult nut to crack.  Maybe 
Together we can do it!
>
>

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Re: Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

I'm happy to announce that this quarter Clojurists Together is funding
Shadow CLJS with Thomas Heller, Meander with Joel Holdbrooks, Calva with
Peter Strömberg, and CIDER with Bozhidar Batsov. You can see more on the
announcement at
https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/q3-2019-funding-announcement/.
Thanks to all of the Clojurists Together members who helped make this
happen.

-- Daniel.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:23 AM Daniel Compton <
daniel.compton.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> is about to
> award another round of funding to support open source Clojure projects. 
> *Applications
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> close on Wednesday, July
> 17th, 2019 at 11:59pm PST.*
>
> Clojurists Together is an organisation, dedicated to funding and
> supporting open source software, infrastructure, and documentation that is
> important to the Clojure and ClojureScript community.
>
> *We plan to fund each project at $3,000 USD/month for 3 months ($9,000 USD
> total).* We're still working out exactly how many projects we will be
> able to fund this quarter, but it is likely to be at least 2.
>
> Previously we have supported projects
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/projects/> like Neanderthal, Aleph,
> Fireplace, cljdoc, Shadow CLJS, CIDER, Figwheel, clj-http and several more.
>
> We surveyed
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/news/q3-2019-survey-results/>
> our members recently and asked them what they wanted us to focus on.
>
> Highly ranked items were:
>
>- developer experience tools (49%)
>- build tooling (37%)
>- linters (34%)
>- error messages (33%)
>- IDE support (30%)
>- documentation (19%)
>- test tooling (24%)
>
> Our members also mentioned these projects specifically: shadow-cljs, Duct
> Framework, Core.typed, CIDER, Clojuredocs, clj-doc, Eastwood, Cloverage,
> buddy, clj-kondo, Reagent, re-frame, FIgwheel Main, Cursive, Leiningen,
> Calva, Chlorine, Sente, Nippy, Rum, core.async, incanter, clj-pdf.
>
> We encourage open source maintainers to apply
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> for funding, especially
> if you work on one of the projects or areas that our members highlighted.
>
> If you work at a company that uses Clojure, talk to your engineering
> manager about supporting Clojurists Together. We've been able to support
> projects thanks to the generosity of our developer and company members
> <https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/>. The more support we have,
> the more that we can do to improve things for the entire Clojure community.
>
> Thanks, Daniel.
>

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Clojurists Together wants to fund you to work on your open source Clojure project

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

Clojurists Together <https://www.clojuriststogether.org> is about to award
another round of funding to support open source Clojure projects. *Applications
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> close on Wednesday, July
17th, 2019 at 11:59pm PST.*

Clojurists Together is an organisation, dedicated to funding and supporting
open source software, infrastructure, and documentation that is important
to the Clojure and ClojureScript community.

*We plan to fund each project at $3,000 USD/month for 3 months ($9,000 USD
total).* We're still working out exactly how many projects we will be able
to fund this quarter, but it is likely to be at least 2.

Previously we have supported projects
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/projects/> like Neanderthal, Aleph,
Fireplace, cljdoc, Shadow CLJS, CIDER, Figwheel, clj-http and several more.

We surveyed
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/news/news/q3-2019-survey-results/> our
members recently and asked them what they wanted us to focus on.

Highly ranked items were:

   - developer experience tools (49%)
   - build tooling (37%)
   - linters (34%)
   - error messages (33%)
   - IDE support (30%)
   - documentation (19%)
   - test tooling (24%)

Our members also mentioned these projects specifically: shadow-cljs, Duct
Framework, Core.typed, CIDER, Clojuredocs, clj-doc, Eastwood, Cloverage,
buddy, clj-kondo, Reagent, re-frame, FIgwheel Main, Cursive, Leiningen,
Calva, Chlorine, Sente, Nippy, Rum, core.async, incanter, clj-pdf.

We encourage open source maintainers to apply
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/open-source/> for funding, especially
if you work on one of the projects or areas that our members highlighted.

If you work at a company that uses Clojure, talk to your engineering
manager about supporting Clojurists Together. We've been able to support
projects thanks to the generosity of our developer and company members
<https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/>. The more support we have,
the more that we can do to improve things for the entire Clojure community.

Thanks, Daniel.

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Open-Source Clojure / Kafka Workshop Materials.

[Derek Troy-West]

Hello Clojurists!

We recently ran a series of Apache Kafka workshops in Melbourne and Sydney, 
the course materials are open-source and the programming exercise is 
available in Clojure (and Java).

If you have an interest in streaming compute, or just like playing with 
things, you might find them interesting:

All the materials are MIT licensed in GitHub:

https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-three-ways
https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-cli-tools
https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-number-stations
https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-vendor-tools

Along with a solution to the programming exercise, and the Clojure variants.

https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-number-stations-sln
https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-number-stations-clj
https://github.com/troy-west/apache-kafka-number-stations-clj-sln

Bit more information on guided workshops here: 
https://troywest.com/workshops/

At one workshop in Melbourne we had 16 Clojure programmers in the room, all 
of whom program in Clojure in their professional roles, I thought that was 
pretty cool.

Clojure is a brilliant language for delivery in the streaming compute space 
as it's mostly about data and transformations rather than domains and 
modelling.

Contributions welcome if you find any issues or can make improvements.

All the best,
 Derek

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Re: [ANN] Crux—open source database alpha launch

[Matching Socks]

Where do folks discuss Crux?

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[ANN] Crux—open source database alpha launch

[Jeremy Taylor]

Hi All,

Crux is a new open source database by JUXT and it was released earlier 
today as a public alpha during Jon Pither's keynote session at 
Clojure/north:

https://juxt.pro/crux

Specifically, Crux is an "unbundled" bitemporal document database with a 
Datalog query engine. It can be configured for use with a variety of log 
and index storage combinations using Kafka/RocksDB/LMDB.

We have been working on this for a while and have already received a lot of 
excellent input from the Clojure community. We now look forward to hearing 
feedback from a broader audience and seeing what everyone builds!

Kind regards,

Jeremy

Offering Manager, Crux
j...@juxt.pro

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Want to Get Involved in an Apache Open Source Deep Learning Project?

[Carin Meier]

The Apache MXNet Clojure package http://mxnet.incubator.apache.org/ is 
looking for people to get involved.

There are some are some issues that have opened that would be great for new 
contributors 
https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+clojure+label%3A%22Good+First+Issue%22+%22Clojure+%22+label%3AClojure

If you want to get involved please check out how in the 
README 
https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/tree/master/contrib/clojure-package.

I'll also be at the Conj, so if you are there - feel free to say hi.

Best,
Carin


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Reminder: Clojure/conj 2018 CFP open till Aug 31

[Alex Miller]

Just a reminder! We would love to see your proposals on language features, 
tools, libs, experience reports, ideas, and fun projects for Clojure/conj, 
Nov 29-Dec 1 in Durham, NC.

   - Call for presentations until Aug 31 - 
   http://2018.clojure-conj.org/call-for-proposals/
   - Opportunity grant applications open until Aug 31 - 
   http://2018.clojure-conj.org/opportunity-grants/
   - Registration open now - https://ti.to/cognitect/clojureconj-2018/
   - Sponsorship opportunities available 
   - http://2018.clojure-conj.org/sponsors/

We hope you can join us!

Alex

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Strange Loop 2018 CFP is now open!

[Alex Miller]

Strange Loop 2018
Sept 27-28, 2018
St. Louis, MO
https://thestrangeloop.com

The Strange Loop conference is currently holding an open call for 
presentations. We are looking for 40 minute sessions for this year's event.

Requested topics include:

* Programming languages, compilers, virtual machines
* Distributed systems
* Databases
* Cloud architecture
* Web development
* Artificial intelligence, machine learning, deep learning
* Applications security, digital rights
* Creative or generative software
* Software in strange places

Proposal submission deadline is **May 13th**. 
Hotel, airfare, ground transportation, and a ticket are included.

Details can be found at: https://thestrangeloop.com/cfp.html

If you have any questions, let me know!

Alex Miller
a...@thestrangeloop.com

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Re: 2018 State of Clojure Community Survey is now open!

[Gregg Reynolds]

Q 3 is missing option "other".

On Jan 25, 2018 9:43 AM, "Alex Miller"  wrote:

> It's time for the annual State of Clojure Community survey!
>
> If you are a user of Clojure or ClojureScript, we are greatly interested
> in your responses to the following survey:
>
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/clojure2018
>
> The survey contains four pages:
>
> 1. General questions applicable to any user of Clojure or ClojureScript
> 2. Questions specific to JVM Clojure (skip if not applicable)
> 3. Questions specific to ClojureScript (skip if not applicable)
> 4. Final comments
>
> The survey will close February 9th. All of the data will be released in
> February. We are greatly appreciative of your input!
>
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Re: 2018 State of Clojure Community Survey is now open!

[Bozhidar Batsov]

Got it. If I knew all of that I would have given it bigger importance. :-)

I was recently bitten by some issue related to concurrent ns loading (
https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/issues/2092#issuecomment-333615901)
I hope that's also on the radar for ns improvements.

On 27 January 2018 at 13:47, Alex Miller  wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 2:38 AM, Bozhidar Batsov 
> wrote:
>
>> What do you mean under "namespace" improvements? (that was one of the
>> areas we could pick the importance of improvements for) I assumed this
>> means making the `ns` macro simpler, as I know many people can't use it
>> without consulting its documentation, but I was curious if it actually
>> meant something else.
>>
>
> It is intentionally vague, but it could mean either improvements to ns or
> changes to namespaces themselves. There are some problems around dealing
> with failures during load and performance that I think could be improved by
> immutable namespaces.
>
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Re: 2018 State of Clojure Community Survey is now open!

[Alex Miller]

On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 2:38 AM, Bozhidar Batsov 
wrote:

> What do you mean under "namespace" improvements? (that was one of the
> areas we could pick the importance of improvements for) I assumed this
> means making the `ns` macro simpler, as I know many people can't use it
> without consulting its documentation, but I was curious if it actually
> meant something else.
>

It is intentionally vague, but it could mean either improvements to ns or
changes to namespaces themselves. There are some problems around dealing
with failures during load and performance that I think could be improved by
immutable namespaces.

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Re: 2018 State of Clojure Community Survey is now open!

[Bozhidar Batsov]

What do you mean under "namespace" improvements? (that was one of the areas
we could pick the importance of improvements for) I assumed this means
making the `ns` macro simpler, as I know many people can't use it without
consulting its documentation, but I was curious if it actually meant
something else.

On 25 January 2018 at 17:43, Alex Miller  wrote:

> It's time for the annual State of Clojure Community survey!
>
> If you are a user of Clojure or ClojureScript, we are greatly interested
> in your responses to the following survey:
>
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/clojure2018
>
> The survey contains four pages:
>
> 1. General questions applicable to any user of Clojure or ClojureScript
> 2. Questions specific to JVM Clojure (skip if not applicable)
> 3. Questions specific to ClojureScript (skip if not applicable)
> 4. Final comments
>
> The survey will close February 9th. All of the data will be released in
> February. We are greatly appreciative of your input!
>
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2018 State of Clojure Community Survey is now open!

[Alex Miller]

It's time for the annual State of Clojure Community survey!

If you are a user of Clojure or ClojureScript, we are greatly interested in 
your responses to the following survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/clojure2018

The survey contains four pages:

1. General questions applicable to any user of Clojure or ClojureScript
2. Questions specific to JVM Clojure (skip if not applicable)
3. Questions specific to ClojureScript (skip if not applicable)
4. Final comments

The survey will close February 9th. All of the data will be released in 
February. We are greatly appreciative of your input!

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[ANN] CFP for Dutch Clojure Day 2018 is now Open

[Vijay Kiran]

Hello Everyone!

The third edition of free Clojure Conference in Amsterdam is ready for your 
CFPs now :)

You can submit your proposal via https://www.papercall.io/dcd18  


If you have any questions, you can reply to this thread or tweet us at 
@clojuredays

Regards,
@vijaykiran
On behalf of DCD 18 Team 

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Re: ANN: Clojurists Together - Funding critical Clojure open source projects

[Boris V. Schmid]

Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together!  

This seems like a good way for those of us (like me) that aren't software 
writers/maintainers to contribute to clojure. Thanks again.
B.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 12:21:42 AM UTC+1, Daniel Compton wrote:
>
> Hi folks
>
> Today we are incredibly excited to announce Clojurists Together 
> <https://clojuriststogether.org/>. The goal of Clojurists Together is to 
> support important Clojure projects, by pooling donations from companies and 
> individuals in the Clojure community and then funding project maintainers.
>
> The Clojurists Together model is based off the successful Ruby Together 
> <https://rubytogether.org> project, which has been running for 2.5 years 
> now. It is run by a committee <https://clojuriststogether.org/team/> of 
> Clojure community members and lives under the Clojars organisation. Being 
> part of Clojars allows us to accept 501(c)3 charitable donations via the 
> SFC <https://sfconservancy.org/>. We’ve been (slowly) working on this for 
> more than a year now, and are looking forward to getting your feedback on 
> it.
>
> The announcement post 
> <https://clojuriststogether.org/news/introducing-clojurists-together/> has 
> more details, but briefly, there are two sides to Clojurists Together: 
> Companies 
> and individuals, and open source maintainers.
>
> *Companies and individuals*
>
> Companies and individuals sign up for a monthly donation to support 
> Clojurists Together at a tier they choose. Different tiers afford different 
> benefits. Company tiers are here 
> <https://clojuriststogether.org/companies/>, individual tiers are here 
> <https://clojuriststogether.org/developers/>. Every quarter, companies 
> are surveyed to find out which tools, libraries, and areas of the Clojure 
> ecosystem they think could be improved, or are important to them. We then 
> compile that information and use it to help us pick projects that will have 
> the biggest impact. 
>
> *Open Source Maintainers*
>
> Every quarter open source maintainers can submit their project for funding 
> for the next quarterly funding period. You can see more on the application 
> here <https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>. We look through the 
> applications, and pick the projects that can make the biggest impact. We 
> fund projects based on the amount of support we get. The more support we 
> get from companies and individuals, the more projects we can support, and 
> the more hours we can pay them for. 
>
> *What now?*
>
>- Encourage your managers to sign up for a company membership 
><https://clojuriststogether.org/companies/>. For the next month, any 
>company or person that signs up will be marked as a founding member.
>- If you are an open source maintainer, consider applying for funding 
><https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>.
>- If you are an individual developer, consider signing up for a developer 
>membership <https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>. 
>- Spread the word to other people you know that use Clojure 
>commercially.
>- If you're a designer, and have some time to help us improve the site 
>design, logo, e.t.c. that would be incredible. Please contact us off list 
>for more on this.
>
> *Questions?*
>
> There may be some mistakes or things that don’t look right in there. 
> Please let us know if you have any questions, either here, or off-list at 
> h...@clojuriststogether.org . This project is for the 
> Clojure community, so we want your input on this. What works well, what 
> doesn’t work for you, what would you like to see?
>
> Thanks, from the Clojurists Together Committee 
> <https://clojuriststogether.org/team/>:
> Toby Crawley, Bridget Hilyer, Maria Geller, Devin Walters, Daniel Solano 
> Gómez, Larry Staton Jr., Daniel Compton.
>

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ANN: Clojurists Together - Funding critical Clojure open source projects

[Daniel Compton]

Hi folks

Today we are incredibly excited to announce Clojurists Together
<https://clojuriststogether.org/>. The goal of Clojurists Together is to
support important Clojure projects, by pooling donations from companies and
individuals in the Clojure community and then funding project maintainers.

The Clojurists Together model is based off the successful Ruby Together
<https://rubytogether.org> project, which has been running for 2.5 years
now. It is run by a committee <https://clojuriststogether.org/team/> of
Clojure community members and lives under the Clojars organisation. Being
part of Clojars allows us to accept 501(c)3 charitable donations via the SFC
<https://sfconservancy.org/>. We’ve been (slowly) working on this for more
than a year now, and are looking forward to getting your feedback on it.

The announcement post
<https://clojuriststogether.org/news/introducing-clojurists-together/> has
more details, but briefly, there are two sides to Clojurists Together:
Companies
and individuals, and open source maintainers.

*Companies and individuals*

Companies and individuals sign up for a monthly donation to support
Clojurists Together at a tier they choose. Different tiers afford different
benefits. Company tiers are here <https://clojuriststogether.org/companies/>,
individual tiers are here <https://clojuriststogether.org/developers/>.
Every quarter, companies are surveyed to find out which tools, libraries,
and areas of the Clojure ecosystem they think could be improved, or are
important to them. We then compile that information and use it to help us
pick projects that will have the biggest impact.

*Open Source Maintainers*

Every quarter open source maintainers can submit their project for funding
for the next quarterly funding period. You can see more on the application
here <https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>. We look through the
applications, and pick the projects that can make the biggest impact. We
fund projects based on the amount of support we get. The more support we
get from companies and individuals, the more projects we can support, and
the more hours we can pay them for.

*What now?*

   - Encourage your managers to sign up for a company membership
   <https://clojuriststogether.org/companies/>. For the next month, any
   company or person that signs up will be marked as a founding member.
   - If you are an open source maintainer, consider applying for funding
   <https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>.
   - If you are an individual developer, consider signing up for a developer
   membership <https://clojuriststogether.org/open-source/>.
   - Spread the word to other people you know that use Clojure commercially.
   - If you're a designer, and have some time to help us improve the site
   design, logo, e.t.c. that would be incredible. Please contact us off list
   for more on this.

*Questions?*

There may be some mistakes or things that don’t look right in there. Please
let us know if you have any questions, either here, or off-list at
h...@clojuriststogether.org. This project is for the Clojure community, so we
want your input on this. What works well, what doesn’t work for you, what
would you like to see?

Thanks, from the Clojurists Together Committee
<https://clojuriststogether.org/team/>:
Toby Crawley, Bridget Hilyer, Maria Geller, Devin Walters, Daniel Solano
Gómez, Larry Staton Jr., Daniel Compton.

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Clojurecademy is Open Source now

[Ertuğrul Çetin]

Hi Everyone,

I'm very happy to announce that I've open sourced Clojurecademy 
<https://clojurecademy.com/>, I hope it's going to be useful for the 
community.

GitHub Link: https://github.com/clojurecademy/clojurecademy

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[ANN] replikativ 0.2.4 - An open, scalable and distributive infrastructure for a data-driven community of applications.

[Christian Weilbach]

Hi,

we have been very busy since :clojureD to make replikativ more
approachable. Most importantly we have significantly improved our
documentation and material under http://replikativ.io and for the
underlying libraries https://github.com/replikativ/

The most important new features are:

- A test-net running under ws://replikativ.io:
  Feel free to deploy prototypes against the test-net to have serverless
applications or run a peer or deploy your own internal cluster.
- Improved CRDTs, esp. the OR-Map and a new experimental merging OR-Map
- React native support including a demo project (chat42app with re-natal)
- Higher throughput of many MiB/s for high volume CRDTs through a faster
binary transport.
- Status notifications in the browser through hooking into timbre in chat42.
- A demo of IPFS integration in filesync-replikativ demonstrates how to
leverage DHTs over immutable data with replikativ's distributed write
coordination while staying cryptographically safe through joined merkle
hashes. Other possibilities are datproject, bittorrent or S3.

We will also soon have a polished JavaScript API which can be combined
with react nicely.

For 0.3 we currently hammock about index based synchronization with the
hitchhiker tree (1), that we have ported to ClojureScript recently. We
are also very interested in a p2p pub-sub overlay protocol like
PolderCast (2) with WebRTC (4). If you have any experience or
references, please let us know!

We also collaborate with the nice datsync (3) guys to build eventual
consistent datalog synchronization on top of onyx and replikativ for a
programming model for the large (similar to Eve, for example).


Feel free to ask any questions! :)


Best,
Christian

(1) https://github.com/datacrypt-project/hitchhiker-tree
(2) http://acropolis.cs.vu.nl/%7Espyros/www/papers/PolderCast.pdf
(3) https://github.com/metasoarous/datsync
(4) https://github.com/albertlinde/Legion/ already has several overlay
protocols, we know Albert, so maybe we can also figure something out
together.

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signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: with-open pattern

[Paul Stadig]

Hey Brian,
The fact that a reducible (as I have implemented it in the reducible-stream 
library) will fully realize itself if it is used as a sequence is a 
drawback that I'm not happy with. In the back of my mind I believe there 
may be a way around it, but I'm not sure, and it is still a topic of 
further thought/research for me. However, I think it can easily be avoided.

The point of using a reducible instead of a sequence is to invert the 
control so that the collection is in charge of processing itself. When you 
use a reducible as a sequence you are processing the collection externally, 
making the collection responsible only for doling itself out one item at a 
time, which it cannot do if it must also manage the scope for some resource 
(like a connection) that must be closed.

I would suggest that you have more processing that needs to be pushed into 
the reduction process. So, instead of getting a database result set, 
processing it in some way, and then trying to pass it as a sequence into 
Ring (I'm not sure if this is exactly your problem, but I think it is 
representative?), where Ring will want to consume that sequence, which will 
trigger it to fully realize in memory---instead push the work that Ring 
would be doing into the reduction process. So, reduce over the result set 
with an output stream (or one end of a piped output stream), and in the 
reduction process write to the stream. Ring takes the other end of the pipe 
and consumes the stream to produce its result.

A reducible is a delayed computation, and with transducers or by other 
means you can layer more delayed computation onto the reducible. As soon as 
you fire the reducible it will produce its entire result, whether the 
firing is because of a call to `reduce` or `seq`. A reducible is like a 
spring with potential energy built in, and when it is sprung it springs. A 
lazy sequence is like a wheel, if you apply external force to it, it will 
turn, but otherwise it is inert. Probably a terrible analogy, but that's 
the best I can come up with. :)

I hope that's helpful.


Paul

http://www.realworldclojure.com/
http://paul.stadig.name/
@pjstadig

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 3:04:40 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>
> It's definitely the same problem, but I don't think it helps me. This 
> part, in particular:
>
> "If you treat this object like a sequence, it will fully consume the input 
> stream and fully realize the decoded data in memory."
>
> I'm specifically trying to avoid realizing the full collection in memory, 
> because it won't fit.
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 11:22:36 AM UTC-7, Josh Tilles wrote:
>>
>> I think the “reducible streams” approach described by Paul Stadig here 
>> <http://paul.stadig.name/2016/08/reducible-streams.html> has potential. 
>> It might not cover all of the scenarios you’re thinking of, though.
>>
>> On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:35:48 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>>>
>>> The with-open style is used a lot in the jdbc lib, and elsewhere. It's 
>>> pretty simple when data is very small, as you can just evaluate the entire 
>>> result with doall, etc.
>>>
>>> How do you deal with larger data, where you need to evaluate 
>>> iteratively? If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to 
>>> pass the consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty 
>>> convoluted, due to needing to pass control to ring first). But if there are 
>>> multiple with-open you have to nest them, with a continuation passing 
>>> style, or middleware pattern, or something, which quickly becomes onerous 
>>> as it affects all the code surrounding the with-open.
>>>
>>> Is there some simpler pattern?
>>>
>>

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Re: with-open pattern

[Ghadi Shayban]

Maybe I don't understand the problem at hand yet -- you can almost 
certainly do this without language help.   Can you help out with a concrete 
example or problematic code?

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:18:17 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>
> This looks like a partial solution:
>
> https://github.com/pjstadig/scopes
>
> perhaps inspired by this discussion:
>
> https://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Resource+Scopes
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 5:10:27 AM UTC-7, Herwig Hochleitner wrote:
>>
>> 2017-05-04 19:35 GMT+02:00 Brian Craft <craft...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
>>> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
>>> needing to pass control to ring first).
>>>
>>
>> Creating streamed ring responses can be kind of tricky. In my experience, 
>> there are two patterns, that work well:
>>
>> 1) Feeding a PipedInputStream from a new thread:
>>
>> (let [os (PipedOutputStream.)
>>   is (PipedInputStream. os)]
>>   (future (with-open [rs ...]
>> (write-to! os rs)))
>>   {:body is})
>>
>> 2) Use a ring adapter that allows some form of asynchronous response. 
>> E.g. with the new ring 1.6 model
>>
>> {:body (reify ring.core.protocols/StreamableResponseBody
>>  (write-body-to-stream [_ _ output-stream]
>> (with-open [rs ...
>> os output-stream]
>> (write-to! os rs}
>>  
>>
>

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Re: with-open pattern

[Brian Craft]

This looks like a partial solution:

https://github.com/pjstadig/scopes

perhaps inspired by this discussion:

https://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Resource+Scopes



On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 5:10:27 AM UTC-7, Herwig Hochleitner wrote:
>
> 2017-05-04 19:35 GMT+02:00 Brian Craft <craft...@gmail.com >:
>>
>> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
>> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
>> needing to pass control to ring first).
>>
>
> Creating streamed ring responses can be kind of tricky. In my experience, 
> there are two patterns, that work well:
>
> 1) Feeding a PipedInputStream from a new thread:
>
> (let [os (PipedOutputStream.)
>   is (PipedInputStream. os)]
>   (future (with-open [rs ...]
> (write-to! os rs)))
>   {:body is})
>
> 2) Use a ring adapter that allows some form of asynchronous response. E.g. 
> with the new ring 1.6 model
>
> {:body (reify ring.core.protocols/StreamableResponseBody
>  (write-body-to-stream [_ _ output-stream]
> (with-open [rs ...
> os output-stream]
> (write-to! os rs}
>  
>

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Re: with-open pattern

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2017-05-04 19:35 GMT+02:00 Brian Craft <craft.br...@gmail.com>:
>
> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the
> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to
> needing to pass control to ring first).
>

Creating streamed ring responses can be kind of tricky. In my experience,
there are two patterns, that work well:

1) Feeding a PipedInputStream from a new thread:

(let [os (PipedOutputStream.)
  is (PipedInputStream. os)]
  (future (with-open [rs ...]
(write-to! os rs)))
  {:body is})

2) Use a ring adapter that allows some form of asynchronous response. E.g.
with the new ring 1.6 model

{:body (reify ring.core.protocols/StreamableResponseBody
 (write-body-to-stream [_ _ output-stream]
(with-open [rs ...
os output-stream]
(write-to! os rs}

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Re: with-open pattern

[Ghadi Shayban]

Hi Brian,
Both plain seqs or reducibles can be consumed without realizing the whole 
thing in memory, especially important (as you note) when the whole thing is 
humongous and dwarfs available memory.  To do it with a lazy seq, as in 
clojure.java.jdbc, you have to care of a few things. You must override 
:result-set-fn from clojure.java.jdbc/query [1] so that you can control 
realization through doseq or reduce.

Forbidden things: calling `doall` on the seq, or pouring it into a vector, 
or realizing the whole seq while still hanging on its head, or making a let 
binding of the resultset that you use more than once, or leak carelessly to 
some helper.  

If you have multiple bindings, my guess is that there is some unit of work 
for every item of a seq realized from a large 'main' query.  The same 
advice would apply here too, you just have to take care on many more 
queries to allow the garbage collector to do its job.  If you have a lot of 
"layers" perhaps you could decompose that into some simpler computations, 
or use a work queue mechanism or core.async channel.  Do you have a 
concrete example of the multiple bindings scenario?

Make sure that the underlying JDBC driver is not working against you by 
buffering the whole thing!  MySQL's JDBC driver, for example, requires a 
few magical settings [2] to prevent it from buffering internally 
[1] http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/query

[2] From 
https://dev.mysql.com/doc/connector-j/5.1/en/connector-j-reference-implementation-notes.html:

stmt = conn.createStatement(java.sql.ResultSet.TYPE_FORWARD_ONLY,
  java.sql.ResultSet.CONCUR_READ_ONLY);
stmt.setFetchSize(Integer.MIN_VALUE);

The combination of a forward-only, read-only result set, with a fetch size 
of Integer.MIN_VALUE serves as a signal to the driver to stream result sets 
row-by-row. After this, any result sets created with the statement will be 
retrieved row-by-row. 


On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:35:48 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>
> The with-open style is used a lot in the jdbc lib, and elsewhere. It's 
> pretty simple when data is very small, as you can just evaluate the entire 
> result with doall, etc.
>
> How do you deal with larger data, where you need to evaluate iteratively? 
> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
> needing to pass control to ring first). But if there are multiple with-open 
> you have to nest them, with a continuation passing style, or middleware 
> pattern, or something, which quickly becomes onerous as it affects all the 
> code surrounding the with-open.
>
> Is there some simpler pattern?
>

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Re: with-open pattern

[Brian Craft]

It's definitely the same problem, but I don't think it helps me. This part, 
in particular:

"If you treat this object like a sequence, it will fully consume the input 
stream and fully realize the decoded data in memory."

I'm specifically trying to avoid realizing the full collection in memory, 
because it won't fit.

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 11:22:36 AM UTC-7, Josh Tilles wrote:
>
> I think the “reducible streams” approach described by Paul Stadig here 
> <http://paul.stadig.name/2016/08/reducible-streams.html> has potential. 
> It might not cover all of the scenarios you’re thinking of, though.
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:35:48 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>>
>> The with-open style is used a lot in the jdbc lib, and elsewhere. It's 
>> pretty simple when data is very small, as you can just evaluate the entire 
>> result with doall, etc.
>>
>> How do you deal with larger data, where you need to evaluate iteratively? 
>> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
>> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
>> needing to pass control to ring first). But if there are multiple with-open 
>> you have to nest them, with a continuation passing style, or middleware 
>> pattern, or something, which quickly becomes onerous as it affects all the 
>> code surrounding the with-open.
>>
>> Is there some simpler pattern?
>>
>

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Re: with-open pattern

[Josh Tilles]

I think the “reducible streams” approach described by Paul Stadig here 
<http://paul.stadig.name/2016/08/reducible-streams.html> has potential. It 
might not cover all of the scenarios you’re thinking of, though.

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:35:48 PM UTC-4, Brian Craft wrote:
>
> The with-open style is used a lot in the jdbc lib, and elsewhere. It's 
> pretty simple when data is very small, as you can just evaluate the entire 
> result with doall, etc.
>
> How do you deal with larger data, where you need to evaluate iteratively? 
> If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
> consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
> needing to pass control to ring first). But if there are multiple with-open 
> you have to nest them, with a continuation passing style, or middleware 
> pattern, or something, which quickly becomes onerous as it affects all the 
> code surrounding the with-open.
>
> Is there some simpler pattern?
>

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with-open pattern

[Brian Craft]

The with-open style is used a lot in the jdbc lib, and elsewhere. It's 
pretty simple when data is very small, as you can just evaluate the entire 
result with doall, etc.

How do you deal with larger data, where you need to evaluate iteratively? 
If there's only one with-open it can be reasonably simple to pass the 
consumer into that context (though from ring it's pretty convoluted, due to 
needing to pass control to ring first). But if there are multiple with-open 
you have to nest them, with a continuation passing style, or middleware 
pattern, or something, which quickly becomes onerous as it affects all the 
code surrounding the with-open.

Is there some simpler pattern?

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[ANN] replikativ 0.2.0 - An open, scalable and distributive infrastructure for a data-driven community of applications.

[Christian Weilbach]

Why replikativ?

Are you tired of building the same kind of glue code for your
distributed architecture over and over again? Then, once you have build
all this often redundant code coordinating state changes between
different ‘cloud’ systems, web services (e.g. RESTful) and your
client-side applications you try the impossible by bridging strongly
consistent storages with eventual consistent and volatile ones? Do you
think ad hoc solutions to cache invalidation are stupid? Do you wonder
whether there is a better way?


More information on our new project homepage :): http://replikativ.io/
To play around I recommend chat42: https://github.com/replikativ/chat42

The other projects should work, but are not updated yet. Please open an
issue if you fail with anything!



This release in particular offers:

- robustness. We have tested replikativ under serious load and ensured
that the frontend APIs developers face are safe to use concurrently with
our tests. We also have built-in the Erlang-like error handling of
superv.async to never miss an exception (hopefully ;) ).
- performance: We were able to follow Trump shitstorms on twitter over
more than a week including casual online synchronization onto a Laptop
with Datomic for analysis. This in particular included >200.000 commit
operations and more than 10 GiB managed data. There are still small
memory leaks, so you cannot run a peer in such a setting without
supervision for weeks yet, though.
- streaming: We now support stream-into-identity! functions for our
major datatypes: CDVCS, OR-Map and LWWR. In particular you can use them
to replicate data between different instances of databases like Datomic.
- more datatypes: We now have a very handy OR-Map, which also features
chat42, so you don't have to care about conflicts anymore with
distributed writers. The LWWR is also useful to have simple setable
(last writer wins) register.
- libraries: We have improved considerably on our kv-storage layer by
providing more backends and durable datastructures like an append-log
(trees WIP): https://github.com/replikativ/konserve
Our network library kabel has not seen as much love yet, and it probably
has a deadlock somewhere, as its tests get stuck sometimes, this needs
investigation.

I am keen on your feedback. If you miss anything or find something
unclear, please let us know!

Happy hacking,
Christian

P.S.: I will present the system at ClojureD.

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[ANN] CFP for Dutch Clojure Day 2017 Is now OPEN!

[Vijay Kiran]

Hello Everyone!

The next edition of Dutch Clojure Day will happen on Saturday March 25th, 
2017 in Amsterdam. The CFP for the event is now open and you can submit 
your proposal via the form : https://goo.gl/forms/yvTZUAZ2YyCtfEM02

You can find more details about the event on http://clojuredays.org

We look forward to seeing you in Amsterdam in spring :)

Cheers,
DCD Organisers
(Carlo/Max/Joost & Vijay)

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[ANN] Clojure/conj CFP & Opportunity Grant Applications open

[Lynn Grogan]

Hey All,
I just wanted to you let you know that the Call for Presentations and 
Opportunity Grant applications have opened for Clojure/conj 
. 
Details are below.

Please help spread the word!

Thanks, Lynn Grogan
Clojure/conj Organizer



Clojure/conj Opportunity Grants 
 Event date: December 1 - 
3, 2016 Location: Austin, Texas

Grant Application Deadline: Friday, September 16, 2016 (the sooner you 
apply, the better. Grants will be awarded on a rolling basis)

Eligibility: Grants are available for all traditionally underrepresented 
groups in technology who would not be able to attend the conference for 
financial reasons. 

Award: If you are awarded a grant, you will receive conference registration 
ticket and/or travel assistance. Find out more information here! 


=
Call for Presentations
Clojure/conj is encouraging everyone interested in giving a conference talk 
to apply, regardless of experience level. 

If you are newer to speaking, we will help you prepare by offering proposal 
review, speaker mentorship, slide review, etc.

Clojure/conj
Event date: December 1 - 3, 2016
Location: Austin, TX
Submission deadline: September 16, 2016
Travel expenses covered: 

   - Conference ticket
   - Up to 4 nights in the conference hotel
   - U.S. Airfare or up to $550 international
   - In some circumstances we are also able to provide additional help.


*http://2016.clojure-conj.org/ *
http://2016.clojure-conj.org/cfp/

You can also submit topic ideas 
 that 
others might be able to speak about.
Feel free to draw from this list of ideas while writing out your 
submissions.

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Mars0i]

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 8:50:21 AM UTC-5, miner wrote:
>
> With a little help from Java, you can make equivalent open intervals for 
> the desired bounds.  For example, 
>
> Also, you can use java.lang.Math/nextUp and nextAfter to get adjacent 
> doubles for your bounds. 
>
> (java.lang.Math/nextUp 1.1) 
> ;=> 1.1003 
>
> (java.lang.Math/nextAfter 1.1 Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY) 
> ;=> 1.0999 
>
> There are a few tricky situations around the zeroes and infinities so you 
> should read the doc on nextAfter, especially if you’re dealing with extreme 
> doubles. 
>

Cool--very nice to know.  Thanks.  I may use it.

Ideally, I'd rather not have to descend to that level for a spec, because 
the meaning becomes less clear, and I'd rather let built-in language 
constructs hide differences between Clojure and Clojurescript whenever 
possible.  Testing for being > 0.0 and < 1.1 won't involve a meaningful 
difference in different clojure variants, for most purposes.

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Steve Miner]

> (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %)) 
> 
> should be the same as 
> 
>   (s/double-in :min Double/MIN_VALUE :max 1.0) 

I should have mentioned that Double/MIN_VALUE is the smallest positive double 
(just greater than 0.0), not a large negative value.  It’s easy to get confused 
by the fact that Long/MIN_VALUE is extremely negative.

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Mars0i]

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:51:02 AM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> You can already get open intervals by just omitting :min or :max.
>

I think my terminology may have created some confusion; I probably 
shouldn't have used open/closed.  I meant "open interval" in the sense that 
an open interval <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/OpenInterval.html>is one 
that doesn't include the endpoints.  e.g. all real numbers x such that x > 
0 and x < 1 are the open interval (0, 1).  A half-open interval is one that 
includes one of the endpoints, but not the other one.   

(s/double-in :infinite? false) sort of specifies an open interval in my 
sense, except that there are hard boundaries on what can be represented as 
a double, so I suppose it's really a closed interval.  I don't know.  
That's getting too pedantic even for me. :-)

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Alex Miller]

You can already get open intervals by just omitting :min or :max.

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 8:50:21 AM UTC-5, miner wrote:
>
> With a little help from Java, you can make equivalent open intervals for 
> the desired bounds.  For example, 
>
>   (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %)) 
>
> should be the same as 
>
>   (s/double-in :min Double/MIN_VALUE :max 1.0) 
>
> Also, you can use java.lang.Math/nextUp and nextAfter to get adjacent 
> doubles for your bounds. 
>
> (java.lang.Math/nextUp 1.1) 
> ;=> 1.1003 
>
> (java.lang.Math/nextAfter 1.1 Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY) 
> ;=> 1.0999 
>
> There are a few tricky situations around the zeroes and infinities so you 
> should read the doc on nextAfter, especially if you’re dealing with extreme 
> doubles. 
>
>

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Steve Miner]

With a little help from Java, you can make equivalent open intervals for the 
desired bounds.  For example,

  (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %))

should be the same as

  (s/double-in :min Double/MIN_VALUE :max 1.0)

Also, you can use java.lang.Math/nextUp and nextAfter to get adjacent doubles 
for your bounds.

(java.lang.Math/nextUp 1.1)
;=> 1.1003

(java.lang.Math/nextAfter 1.1 Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY)
;=> 1.0999

There are a few tricky situations around the zeroes and infinities so you 
should read the doc on nextAfter, especially if you’re dealing with extreme 
doubles.

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Mars0i]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 10:02:17 PM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 9:41:59 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 4:32:40 PM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> You can file a jira if you like, I'm not sure Rich's thoughts on this. 
>>>
>>
>> I understand.  Thanks--will do.
>>  
>>
>>> Also, keep in mind that you can also compose preds and get this with 
>>> slightly more effort now:
>>>
>>> (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %))
>>>
>>
>> Yes, definitely.  Though #(and (> % 0.0) (<= % 1)) seems simpler if one 
>> doesn't really need the NaN and Infinity tests. 
>>
>
> You'll find that the generator for double-in is far better than what 
> you're suggesting, and you should lean on it when doing things slightly 
> differently. 
>
> I didn't try it but I don't think your example would gen at all - you'd 
> need to s/and double? in there too at the beginning and even then it's 
> going to generate random doubles then filter to your range, but most 
> generated values will not be in the range. s/double-in is designed to only 
> generate values in the specified range.
>

Ah.  Thanks.   I'm sure you're right.  I didn't understand the role of the 
spec logic functions generating for testing.  I hadn't thought about the 
generator functionality at all--just validation of real inputs.  I'm still 
feeling my way in the dark with spec.  I needed half-open and closed 
interval tests for user input the very small application that I'm using to 
explore spec, which is how the issue about double-in arose for me.  i.e. I 
have a real use case, but my testing can be pretty simple.

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Alex Miller]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 9:41:59 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 4:32:40 PM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>>
>> You can file a jira if you like, I'm not sure Rich's thoughts on this. 
>>
>
> I understand.  Thanks--will do.
>  
>
>> Also, keep in mind that you can also compose preds and get this with 
>> slightly more effort now:
>>
>> (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %))
>>
>
> Yes, definitely.  Though #(and (> % 0.0) (<= % 1)) seems simpler if one 
> doesn't really need the NaN and Infinity tests. 
>

You'll find that the generator for double-in is far better than what you're 
suggesting, and you should lean on it when doing things slightly 
differently. 

I didn't try it but I don't think your example would gen at all - you'd 
need to s/and double? in there too at the beginning and even then it's 
going to generate random doubles then filter to your range, but most 
generated values will not be in the range. s/double-in is designed to only 
generate values in the specified range.
 

>
> Thanks.
>
>
>

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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Mars0i]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 4:32:40 PM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> You can file a jira if you like, I'm not sure Rich's thoughts on this. 
>

I understand.  Thanks--will do.
 

> Also, keep in mind that you can also compose preds and get this with 
> slightly more effort now:
>
> (s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %))
>

Yes, definitely.  Though #(and (> % 0.0) (<= % 1)) seems simpler if one 
doesn't really need the NaN and Infinity tests. 

Thanks.


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Re: Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Alex Miller]

You can file a jira if you like, I'm not sure Rich's thoughts on this. 

Also, keep in mind that you can also compose preds and get this with 
slightly more effort now:

(s/and (s/double-in :min 0.0 :max 1.0) #(not= 0.0 %))




On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 2:03:28 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote:
>
> clojure.spec/double-in defines a spec that tests whether a double is 
> greater than or equal to a minimum value and less than or equal to a 
> maximum value.  This is useful for many purposes, but sometimes you need to 
> test whether a double is greater than a minimum or less than a maximum. 
>  There are many mathematical applications that assume half-open intervals 
> (> min and <= max; >= min and < max) or open intervals (> min and < max). 
>  Example: You are going to divide by the double, so it must be > 0, not 
> just >= 0.  Providing double-in but only allowing it to specify closed 
> intervals seems arbitrary.
>
> It's easy enough to write open-interval and half-open interval tests, 
> either using s/and with s/double-in, or just by defining a function from 
> scratch.  However, if Clojure is going to provide double-in, why make us do 
> that?  Why not have a common interface that adds two optional keywords to 
> specify whether the bounds are open or closed?  This is not a request to 
> add the kitchen sink; it's a natural extension to deal with a common use 
> case.  The alternative would be to define three additional versions of 
> double-in, and people will do that on their own, or define a new more 
> flexible double-in if there's no built-in spec function that does it.
>
>
> I'd suggest a new keyword with one of the following forms: 
>
>
> :min-open, :min-greater, :min-greater-than, :min-strict, :greater-min, 
> :strict-min, etc.,
>
>
> and a corresponding keyword for the max side.
>
>
> Default values should be false, for compatibility with the current 
> definition of double-in.
>
>
> I can add a JIRA ticket if this seems worthwhile.  I wanted to see what 
> people think first.  (I'd have to sign up with the JIRA system, but I 
> assume I'm allowed to do that.)  My apologies if there's already a JIRA 
> ticket for this.  I don't seem to be able to find anything on double-in, 
> but I'm not sure I understand the search syntax.
>

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Enhance spec/double-in to handle open and half-open intervals?

[Mars0i]

clojure.spec/double-in defines a spec that tests whether a double is 
greater than or equal to a minimum value and less than or equal to a 
maximum value.  This is useful for many purposes, but sometimes you need to 
test whether a double is greater than a minimum or less than a maximum. 
 There are many mathematical applications that assume half-open intervals 
(> min and <= max; >= min and < max) or open intervals (> min and < max). 
 Example: You are going to divide by the double, so it must be > 0, not 
just >= 0.  Providing double-in but only allowing it to specify closed 
intervals seems arbitrary.

It's easy enough to write open-interval and half-open interval tests, 
either using s/and with s/double-in, or just by defining a function from 
scratch.  However, if Clojure is going to provide double-in, why make us do 
that?  Why not have a common interface that adds two optional keywords to 
specify whether the bounds are open or closed?  This is not a request to 
add the kitchen sink; it's a natural extension to deal with a common use 
case.  The alternative would be to define three additional versions of 
double-in, and people will do that on their own, or define a new more 
flexible double-in if there's no built-in spec function that does it.


I'd suggest a new keyword with one of the following forms: 


:min-open, :min-greater, :min-greater-than, :min-strict, :greater-min, 
:strict-min, etc.,


and a corresponding keyword for the max side.


Default values should be false, for compatibility with the current 
definition of double-in.


I can add a JIRA ticket if this seems worthwhile.  I wanted to see what 
people think first.  (I'd have to sign up with the JIRA system, but I 
assume I'm allowed to do that.)  My apologies if there's already a JIRA 
ticket for this.  I don't seem to be able to find anything on double-in, 
but I'm not sure I understand the search syntax.

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Re: Good Open Source project to learn Clojure

[Shaun Mahood]

Try checking out some of the projects 
on http://open-source.braveclojure.com/


On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 4:49:45 AM UTC-6, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
>
> I did not work with Clojure for about a year I think. And before that I 
> only made one little desktop application for myself and played with some 
> little stuff like Happy Numbers. There is a big chance I will get a Clojure 
> project soon, so it would be good to get up to speed. Anyone an idea what a 
> good project would be to contribute to? Difficult enough that I learn a lot 
> of stuff fast, but simple enough that I can contribute.
>
> I worked with a lot of languages and get proficient with languages fast. 
> So in the beginning it should help me to get accustomed to Clojure, but 
> after that it should be challenging enough to continue. I would not like to 
> come, learn and go away. ;-)
>
> -- 
> Cecil Westerhof
>

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Re: Good Open Source project to learn Clojure

[Jason Felice]

We'd love to have you on Avi:

https://github.com/maitria/avi

If you normally use vim, the problem domain is easy to understand, and it
provides plenty of interesting problems to solve.

-Jason

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Cecil Westerhof 
wrote:

> I did not work with Clojure for about a year I think. And before that I
> only made one little desktop application for myself and played with some
> little stuff like Happy Numbers. There is a big chance I will get a Clojure
> project soon, so it would be good to get up to speed. Anyone an idea what a
> good project would be to contribute to? Difficult enough that I learn a lot
> of stuff fast, but simple enough that I can contribute.
>
> I worked with a lot of languages and get proficient with languages fast.
> So in the beginning it should help me to get accustomed to Clojure, but
> after that it should be challenging enough to continue. I would not like to
> come, learn and go away. ;-)
>
> --
> Cecil Westerhof
>
> --
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Good Open Source project to learn Clojure

[Cecil Westerhof]

I did not work with Clojure for about a year I think. And before that I
only made one little desktop application for myself and played with some
little stuff like Happy Numbers. There is a big chance I will get a Clojure
project soon, so it would be good to get up to speed. Anyone an idea what a
good project would be to contribute to? Difficult enough that I learn a lot
of stuff fast, but simple enough that I can contribute.

I worked with a lot of languages and get proficient with languages fast. So
in the beginning it should help me to get accustomed to Clojure, but after
that it should be challenging enough to continue. I would not like to come,
learn and go away. ;-)

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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[ANN] Open Source Clojure Projects

[Daniel Higginbotham]

I've created a directory of active, open source Clojure projects at 
http://open-source.braveclojure.com/. Its purpose is to help people who 
want to improve their skills or get more involved in the community find 
projects that are welcoming new contributors, and to help project 
owners/maintainers get more visibility and squash more tickets.

Each project has (or should have) clear instructions on:

* Developing the project locally
* Running tests if there are tests
* Contributing code (pull request? tests required?)
* Contacting other devs - slack, mailing list, IRC, etc

Also, there's a "beginner-friendly" flag so that new Clojurists can easily 
find projects with tasks that are appropriate for their skill level.

More details, including notes on the stack, 
at http://www.flyingmachinestudios.com/programming/open-source-clojure/

Thanks!
Daniel

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Re: core.matrix and incanter [WAS: Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?]

[Mikera]

Yes, I think so. Though they should be the "raw" functionality only 
e.g. I know some of the Incanter code adds quite a bit of syntactic sugar 
which is absolutely fine but I don't think belongs in core.matrix itself. 
Hence a lot of the Incanter code should ideally have the strategy "handle 
syntactic sugar as necessary, then delegate to the underlying core.matrix 
operation(s)".

I've looked briefly at the spark RDDs / datasets and I think they are fine 
targets for core.matrix dataset implementations. I'd favour integrating the 
implementation code into existing Spark wrapper libraries, if the 
maintainers are agreeable. This would be a great project for somebody, and 
would also really help us to develop the core.matrix dataset API (which is 
a bit spartan right now).


On Friday, 5 February 2016 19:18:14 UTC+8, Bruce Durling wrote:
>
> Mike, 
>
> That sounds really useful. So things like mapping and joining should 
> be in core.matrix then? 
>
> Just contemplating some PRs and where we should be looking. 
>
> I know there was talk about hooking up core.matrix to Spark RDDs. Has 
> anyone made any progress on that? It would be nice to pitch in there 
> too. 
>
> cheers, 
> Bruce 
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Mikera  > wrote: 
> > Hi Bruce, 
> > 
> > My view is that the following things should be in core.matrix 
> > - Fundamental dataset and array programming operations (slicing, access, 
> > reshaping, dimension labelling etc.) 
> > - Basic numerical operations (add, matrix multiply etc.) 
> > - Matrix operations that may have different underlying implementations 
> (SVD 
> > etc.) 
> > - Protocol based support for standard implementations (Java arrays, 
> Clojure 
> > vectors etc.) 
> > 
> > The following belong in other libraries: 
> > - More sophisticated algorithms building on the fundamental operations 
> > (statistical techniques, machine learning etc.) 
> > - Anything to do with user interaction (graphing, GUIs etc.) 
> > - Tools for IO / data access etc. 
> > 
> > This is just a guideline though - happy to consider any specific 
> function on 
> > a case by case base. Probably best done via issues, so please file if 
> you 
> > have any! 
> > 
> > On Friday, 5 February 2016 03:27:47 UTC+8, Bruce Durling wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Mike, 
> >> 
> >> I've had some of my team start using incanter 1.9.0. We've found and 
> >> reported some issues and would like to contribute. Is there a good 
> >> road map somewhere of what functions should stay in incanter and what 
> >> ones should live in clojure.core.matrix.dataset? I'd like to know that 
> >> any fixes we pursue would move towards the future design of incanter. 
> >> 
> >> cheers, 
> >> Bruce 
> >> 
> >> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Mikera  
> wrote: 
> >> > There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in 
> >> > clojure.core.matrix.dataset 
> >> > 
> >> > Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue 
> >> > reporting) 
> >> > would be very welcome! 
> >> > 
> >> > On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  
> wrote: 
> >> >>> 
> >> >>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and 
> the 
> >> >>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
> >> >>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia 
> mailing 
> >> >> list 
> >> >> recently.  One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack 
> of 
> >> >> a 
> >> >> good dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that 
> line 
> >> >> would 
> >> >> be a good project. 
> >> > 
> >> > -- 
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >> > Groups 
> >> > "London Clojurians" group. 
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
> send 
> >> > an 
> >> > email to london-clojuri...@googlegroups.com. 
> >> > To post to this group, send email to london-c...@googlegroups.com. 
> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/london-clojurians. 
>
> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> > 
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core.matrix and incanter [WAS: Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?]

[Bruce Durling]

Mike,

That sounds really useful. So things like mapping and joining should
be in core.matrix then?

Just contemplating some PRs and where we should be looking.

I know there was talk about hooking up core.matrix to Spark RDDs. Has
anyone made any progress on that? It would be nice to pitch in there
too.

cheers,
Bruce

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Mikera  wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> My view is that the following things should be in core.matrix
> - Fundamental dataset and array programming operations (slicing, access,
> reshaping, dimension labelling etc.)
> - Basic numerical operations (add, matrix multiply etc.)
> - Matrix operations that may have different underlying implementations (SVD
> etc.)
> - Protocol based support for standard implementations (Java arrays, Clojure
> vectors etc.)
>
> The following belong in other libraries:
> - More sophisticated algorithms building on the fundamental operations
> (statistical techniques, machine learning etc.)
> - Anything to do with user interaction (graphing, GUIs etc.)
> - Tools for IO / data access etc.
>
> This is just a guideline though - happy to consider any specific function on
> a case by case base. Probably best done via issues, so please file if you
> have any!
>
> On Friday, 5 February 2016 03:27:47 UTC+8, Bruce Durling wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I've had some of my team start using incanter 1.9.0. We've found and
>> reported some issues and would like to contribute. Is there a good
>> road map somewhere of what functions should stay in incanter and what
>> ones should live in clojure.core.matrix.dataset? I'd like to know that
>> any fixes we pursue would move towards the future design of incanter.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Bruce
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Mikera  wrote:
>> > There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in
>> > clojure.core.matrix.dataset
>> >
>> > Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue
>> > reporting)
>> > would be very welcome!
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
>> >>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
>> >>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing
>> >> list
>> >> recently.  One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of
>> >> a
>> >> good dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line
>> >> would
>> >> be a good project.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "London Clojurians" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an
>> > email to london-clojuri...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to london-c...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/london-clojurians.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[cldwalker]

If you're into editors or tooling we're happy to have help with LightTable 
- 
https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#contributing
 
:)

Cheers,
Gabriel

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 5:26:12 AM UTC-5, Mikera wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> My view is that the following things should be in core.matrix
> - Fundamental dataset and array programming operations (slicing, access, 
> reshaping, dimension labelling etc.)
> - Basic numerical operations (add, matrix multiply etc.)
> - Matrix operations that may have different underlying implementations 
> (SVD etc.)
> - Protocol based support for standard implementations (Java arrays, 
> Clojure vectors etc.)
>
> The following belong in other libraries:
> - More sophisticated algorithms building on the fundamental operations 
> (statistical techniques, machine learning etc.)
> - Anything to do with user interaction (graphing, GUIs etc.)
> - Tools for IO / data access etc.
>
> This is just a guideline though - happy to consider any specific function 
> on a case by case base. Probably best done via issues, so please file if 
> you have any!
>
> On Friday, 5 February 2016 03:27:47 UTC+8, Bruce Durling wrote:
>>
>> Mike, 
>>
>> I've had some of my team start using incanter 1.9.0. We've found and 
>> reported some issues and would like to contribute. Is there a good 
>> road map somewhere of what functions should stay in incanter and what 
>> ones should live in clojure.core.matrix.dataset? I'd like to know that 
>> any fixes we pursue would move towards the future design of incanter. 
>>
>> cheers, 
>> Bruce 
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Mikera  wrote: 
>> > There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in 
>> > clojure.core.matrix.dataset 
>> > 
>> > Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue 
>> reporting) 
>> > would be very welcome! 
>> > 
>> > On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  
>> wrote: 
>> >>> 
>> >>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the 
>> >>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
>> >>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community. 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing 
>> list 
>> >> recently.  One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of 
>> a 
>> >> good dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line 
>> would 
>> >> be a good project. 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups 
>> > "London Clojurians" group. 
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an 
>> > email to london-clojuri...@googlegroups.com. 
>> > To post to this group, send email to london-c...@googlegroups.com. 
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/london-clojurians. 
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>>
>

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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Mikera]

Hi Bruce,

My view is that the following things should be in core.matrix
- Fundamental dataset and array programming operations (slicing, access, 
reshaping, dimension labelling etc.)
- Basic numerical operations (add, matrix multiply etc.)
- Matrix operations that may have different underlying implementations (SVD 
etc.)
- Protocol based support for standard implementations (Java arrays, Clojure 
vectors etc.)

The following belong in other libraries:
- More sophisticated algorithms building on the fundamental operations 
(statistical techniques, machine learning etc.)
- Anything to do with user interaction (graphing, GUIs etc.)
- Tools for IO / data access etc.

This is just a guideline though - happy to consider any specific function 
on a case by case base. Probably best done via issues, so please file if 
you have any!

On Friday, 5 February 2016 03:27:47 UTC+8, Bruce Durling wrote:
>
> Mike, 
>
> I've had some of my team start using incanter 1.9.0. We've found and 
> reported some issues and would like to contribute. Is there a good 
> road map somewhere of what functions should stay in incanter and what 
> ones should live in clojure.core.matrix.dataset? I'd like to know that 
> any fixes we pursue would move towards the future design of incanter. 
>
> cheers, 
> Bruce 
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Mikera  > wrote: 
> > There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in 
> > clojure.core.matrix.dataset 
> > 
> > Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue 
> reporting) 
> > would be very welcome! 
> > 
> > On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote: 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the 
> >>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
> >>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing 
> list 
> >> recently.  One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of 
> a 
> >> good dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line 
> would 
> >> be a good project. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> > "London Clojurians" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an 
> > email to london-clojuri...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To post to this group, send email to london-c...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/london-clojurians. 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>

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Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Mikera]

There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in 
clojure.core.matrix.dataset

Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue 
reporting) would be very welcome!

On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  > wrote:
>
>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the 
>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>>
>
> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing 
> list 
> recently.
>   
> One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of a good 
> dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line would be 
> a good project.
>

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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Bruce Durling]

Mike,

I've had some of my team start using incanter 1.9.0. We've found and
reported some issues and would like to contribute. Is there a good
road map somewhere of what functions should stay in incanter and what
ones should live in clojure.core.matrix.dataset? I'd like to know that
any fixes we pursue would move towards the future design of incanter.

cheers,
Bruce

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Mikera  wrote:
> There is the start of a dataframe-like implementation in
> clojure.core.matrix.dataset
>
> Contributions in this area (or even just vigorous testing / issue reporting)
> would be very welcome!
>
> On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 17:44:51 UTC+8, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  wrote:
>>>
>>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
>>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
>>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>>
>>
>> Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing list
>> recently.  One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of a
>> good dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line would
>> be a good project.
>
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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Steven Deobald]

Wow, folks. This is a fantastic list. It is really helpful to know not only
a project's contribution needs but also the maintainer's appetite for
working with newer/younger contributors.

Our mentoring process will proceed for another week or two. In the
meantime, we'd love to see more suggestions. :)

Thanks everyone!

Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com

On 2 February 2016 at 22:37, Jason Felice <jason.m.fel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We have a lot of focus on being new-Clojurian and new-programmer friendly
> for Avi, including being able to spend a couple hours a week
> remote-pairing.  I think this is a good project if the person is familiar
> with (or especially fond of) Vim.
>
> https://github.com/maitria/avi
>
> -Jason
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Bozhidar Batsov <bozhi...@batsov.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If you're into tooling - there's always plenty of work to be done on
>> cider-nrepl (https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl) :-)
>>
>> On 2 February 2016 at 10:28, Chris Howe-Jones <chris.howejo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Another open source library that has some real momentum behind it at the
>>> moment is baid-chat https://github.com/braidchat/meta/wiki . It's the
>>> Clojure Communities OSS alternative to Slack.
>>>
>>> Why is it needed? Lots of reasons that are elaborated in the motivations
>>> page of the wiki but one of the most urgent is that Slack has adopted a
>>> policy of closing community teams to new members once they get large
>>> (anecdotally around 7000 members) and the Clojurians Slack channel is
>>> already over 4800.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2016, at 08:22, Mikera <mike.r.anderson...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
>>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
>>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>>>
>>> On Monday, 1 February 2016 18:51:37 UTC+8, Steven Deobald wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hey folks!
>>>>
>>>> Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's
>>>> been in the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We
>>>> try to ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns,
>>>> we figure writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place
>>>> to start.
>>>>
>>>> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for
>>>> projects we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some
>>>> the standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as
>>>> providing guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
>>>>
>>>> We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If
>>>> you have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish
>>>> someone would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning
>>>> opportunity.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks everyone!
>>>>
>>>> Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
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Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Mikera]

If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the 
associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.

On Monday, 1 February 2016 18:51:37 UTC+8, Steven Deobald wrote:
>
> Hey folks!
>
> Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's been 
> in the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We try 
> to ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns, we 
> figure writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place to 
> start.
>
> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for 
> projects we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some 
> the standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as 
> providing guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
>
> We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If you 
> have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish someone 
> would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning opportunity.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com
>

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Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Gregg Reynolds]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Mikera  wrote:

> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>

Speaking of which,  the topic of Clojure came up on the Julia mailing list
recently.
One comment was "I suspect the biggest issue is the lack of a good
dataframes library for Clojure,..."  So something along that line would be
a good project.

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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Jason Felice]

We have a lot of focus on being new-Clojurian and new-programmer friendly
for Avi, including being able to spend a couple hours a week
remote-pairing.  I think this is a good project if the person is familiar
with (or especially fond of) Vim.

https://github.com/maitria/avi

-Jason

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Bozhidar Batsov <bozhi...@batsov.com> wrote:

> If you're into tooling - there's always plenty of work to be done on
> cider-nrepl (https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl) :-)
>
> On 2 February 2016 at 10:28, Chris Howe-Jones <chris.howejo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Another open source library that has some real momentum behind it at the
>> moment is baid-chat https://github.com/braidchat/meta/wiki . It's the
>> Clojure Communities OSS alternative to Slack.
>>
>> Why is it needed? Lots of reasons that are elaborated in the motivations
>> page of the wiki but one of the most urgent is that Slack has adopted a
>> policy of closing community teams to new members once they get large
>> (anecdotally around 7000 members) and the Clojurians Slack channel is
>> already over 4800.
>>
>>
>> On 2 Feb 2016, at 08:22, Mikera <mike.r.anderson...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
>> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
>> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>>
>> On Monday, 1 February 2016 18:51:37 UTC+8, Steven Deobald wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey folks!
>>>
>>> Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's
>>> been in the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We
>>> try to ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns,
>>> we figure writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place
>>> to start.
>>>
>>> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for
>>> projects we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some
>>> the standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as
>>> providing guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
>>>
>>> We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If
>>> you have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish
>>> someone would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning
>>> opportunity.
>>>
>>> Thanks everyone!
>>>
>>> Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com
>>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Chris Howe-Jones]

Another open source library that has some real momentum behind it at the moment 
is baid-chat https://github.com/braidchat/meta/wiki 
<https://github.com/braidchat/meta/wiki> . It's the Clojure Communities OSS 
alternative to Slack.

Why is it needed? Lots of reasons that are elaborated in the motivations page 
of the wiki but one of the most urgent is that Slack has adopted a policy of 
closing community teams to new members once they get large (anecdotally around 
7000 members) and the Clojurians Slack channel is already over 4800.


> On 2 Feb 2016, at 08:22, Mikera <mike.r.anderson...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the 
> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very 
> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
> 
> On Monday, 1 February 2016 18:51:37 UTC+8, Steven Deobald wrote:
> Hey folks!
> 
> Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's been in 
> the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We try to 
> ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns, we figure 
> writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place to start.
> 
> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for projects 
> we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some the 
> standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as providing 
> guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
> 
> We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If you 
> have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish someone 
> would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning opportunity.
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com <http://nilenso.com/>
> 
> -- 
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Re: [ldnclj] Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Bozhidar Batsov]

If you're into tooling - there's always plenty of work to be done on
cider-nrepl (https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl) :-)

On 2 February 2016 at 10:28, Chris Howe-Jones <chris.howejo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Another open source library that has some real momentum behind it at the
> moment is baid-chat https://github.com/braidchat/meta/wiki . It's the
> Clojure Communities OSS alternative to Slack.
>
> Why is it needed? Lots of reasons that are elaborated in the motivations
> page of the wiki but one of the most urgent is that Slack has adopted a
> policy of closing community teams to new members once they get large
> (anecdotally around 7000 members) and the Clojurians Slack channel is
> already over 4800.
>
>
> On 2 Feb 2016, at 08:22, Mikera <mike.r.anderson...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you are interested in data science, help with core.matrix and the
> associated libraries is always appreciated, and we are very
> contributor-friendly in the numerical Clojure community.
>
> On Monday, 1 February 2016 18:51:37 UTC+8, Steven Deobald wrote:
>>
>> Hey folks!
>>
>> Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's been
>> in the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We try
>> to ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns, we
>> figure writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place to
>> start.
>>
>> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for
>> projects we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some
>> the standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as
>> providing guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
>>
>> We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If
>> you have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish
>> someone would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning
>> opportunity.
>>
>> Thanks everyone!
>>
>> Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com
>>
>
> --
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>
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Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Stig Brautaset]

Steven Deobald  writes:

> With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for projects
> we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some the
> standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as providing
> guidance with his patches/pull-requests.

I'm myself a Clojure hobbyist and wanted to learn a bit more about
Ring[1]. I recently picked an easy-looking issue from its issue-tracker
and implemented it. I got very constructive and prompt feedback from
James Reeves and was able to quickly go through a few iterations before
he merged it[2]. A++ would contribute again.

Stig


[1] https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring
[2] https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/pull/239

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Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Steven Deobald]

Hey folks!

Today is the first day nilenso has ever had an intern on-staff. He's been
in the industry for a few years but he's relatively new to Clojure. We try
to ramp people up as slowly and supportively as possible. For interns, we
figure writing (and re-writing, natch) open source is the safest place to
start.

With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for
projects we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some
the standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as
providing guidance with his patches/pull-requests.

We're open to any shape of project: applications, libraries, tools. If you
have a Clojure project you would like help with (or that you wish someone
would start), we would love to evaluate it as a learning opportunity.

Thanks everyone!

Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com

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Re: Suggestions for open source contributions?

[Steven Deobald]

Thanks Stig! Ring is definitely up there on the list of possible projects
we could contribute to. The exchange between you and James looks like
precisely the kind of engagement we look forward to having with the
community. :)

Steven Deobald -- ⌀ -- nilenso.com

On 2 February 2016 at 02:01, Stig Brautaset  wrote:

> Steven Deobald  writes:
>
> > With that context set, does anyone on the list have suggestions for
> projects
> > we can guide him through? We will be working with him through some the
> > standard Clojure literature over the coming months, as well as providing
> > guidance with his patches/pull-requests.
>
> I'm myself a Clojure hobbyist and wanted to learn a bit more about
> Ring[1]. I recently picked an easy-looking issue from its issue-tracker
> and implemented it. I got very constructive and prompt feedback from
> James Reeves and was able to quickly go through a few iterations before
> he merged it[2]. A++ would contribute again.
>
> Stig
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring
> [2] https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/pull/239
>
> --
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[ANN] :clojureD Registration Now Open

[Stefan Kamphausen]

Fellow Clojurians,


The team organizing the German Clojure conference :clojureD would like you 
to know, that the registration is now open:

http://www.clojured.de/registration/


Kind regards,
stefan

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[ANN] ola-clojure 0.1.0, Open Lighting Architecture from Clojure

[James Elliott]

In response to an excellent request from the Open Lighting Architecture 
team, I have separated the low-level communication library I developed for 
Afterglow into its own project, ola-clojure 
https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fbrunchboy%2Fola-clojure%23ola-clojuresa=Dsntz=1usg=AFQjCNEwB7r4vsHMlzXLc2TLNSzNIGlsHw,
 cleaned 
it up a bit as befits a standalone effort, and added documentation. Now 
anyone who wants to talk to OLA from Clojure will find it easy.

Afterglow itself is now using this standalone library, and its own build 
process is faster because it no longer needs to generate and compile the 
Google Protocol Buffers Java classes nor the supporting Clojure functions 
that handle all the boilerplate of marshaling and unmarshaling the protobuf 
messages.

And in addition to spawning this lower-level project, Afterglow has also 
inspired a higher-level project, afterglow-max 
https://cycling74.com/toolbox/afterglow-max-control-light-shows-max/, 
which embeds it into Cycling ‘74’s Max https://cycling74.com/, a visual 
data-flow environment for musical and visual experimentation and 
performance.

ola-clojure is on github at 
https://github.com/brunchboy/ola-clojure#ola-clojure

Cheers,

  -James

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Re: [ANN] Afterglow 0.1.0, an open-source live-coding Clojure environment for light shows

[Devin Walters]

Great logo, and stellar work. Thanks so much for your contribution.
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 10:09 PM James Elliott brunch...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just released version 0.1.0 of Afterglow so that other interested people
 can start exploring it. I simply cannot believe I have been able to create
 a system like this in a couple of months, after being inspired by the
 example of Overtone. Thank you, Clojure community, for making software
 development so powerful and so much fun again!

 Interested parties can find the repository here:
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow

 From the online manual:

 Afterglow is a lighting controller designed to support live coding
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_coding, written in Clojure
 http://clojure.org/, intended to enable people to produce spectacular
 and highly customizable light shows using modern stage and effect lighting,
 and which are related in deep ways to the phrasing of music being played.
 (Its creator http://deepsymmetry.org/ is a DJ and producer of light
 and laser shows by avocation.) Currently, the lighting effects
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/effects.adoc#effects
  and fixture definitions
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/fixture_definitions.adoc#fixture-definitions
  are
 written and organized through Clojure code, so you will either need to
 learn Clojure or work with a Clojure programmer to create new ones, but
 they are controlled through MIDI control surfaces or Open Sound Control, so
 once they are set up, there is great flexibility in how you can perform
 them.

 Someday a user interface for building shows and fixture definitions may
 be created, either within Afterglow, or as a companion project, but that is
 not currently planned. For now the focus is on building rich user
 interfaces for controlling shows, such as the Ableton Push mapping
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/mapping_sync.adoc#using-ableton-push
  and web interface
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/README.adoc#the-embedded-web-interface,
 while using the concise expressive power of Clojure for writing the fixture
 definitions, effects, and cues.

 Afterglow communicates with the lighting hardware using the Open
 Lighting Architecture https://www.openlighting.org/ola/, so it
 supports a wide variety of communication methods and interfaces.
 Information about installing OLA
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow#installation is included in the
 project README https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow.


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[ANN] Afterglow 0.1.0, an open-source live-coding Clojure environment for light shows

[James Elliott]

I just released version 0.1.0 of Afterglow so that other interested people 
can start exploring it. I simply cannot believe I have been able to create 
a system like this in a couple of months, after being inspired by the 
example of Overtone. Thank you, Clojure community, for making software 
development so powerful and so much fun again!

Interested parties can find the repository 
here: https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow

From the online manual:

 Afterglow is a lighting controller designed to support live coding 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_coding, written in Clojure 
 http://clojure.org/, intended to enable people to produce spectacular 
 and highly customizable light shows using modern stage and effect lighting, 
 and which are related in deep ways to the phrasing of music being played. 
 (Its creator http://deepsymmetry.org/ is a DJ and producer of light and 
 laser shows by avocation.) Currently, the lighting effects 
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/effects.adoc#effects
  and fixture definitions 
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/fixture_definitions.adoc#fixture-definitions
  are 
 written and organized through Clojure code, so you will either need to 
 learn Clojure or work with a Clojure programmer to create new ones, but 
 they are controlled through MIDI control surfaces or Open Sound Control, so 
 once they are set up, there is great flexibility in how you can perform 
 them.

 Someday a user interface for building shows and fixture definitions may be 
 created, either within Afterglow, or as a companion project, but that is 
 not currently planned. For now the focus is on building rich user 
 interfaces for controlling shows, such as the Ableton Push mapping 
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/mapping_sync.adoc#using-ableton-push
  and web interface 
 https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow/blob/master/doc/README.adoc#the-embedded-web-interface,
  
 while using the concise expressive power of Clojure for writing the fixture 
 definitions, effects, and cues.

 Afterglow communicates with the lighting hardware using the Open Lighting 
 Architecture https://www.openlighting.org/ola/, so it supports a wide 
 variety of communication methods and interfaces. Information about installing 
 OLA https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow#installation is included in 
 the project README https://github.com/brunchboy/afterglow.




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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Alan Moore]

, an
 inanimate artifact of human labor. Everyone is free to give theirs away - I
 think this is admirable and altruistic behavior that we need more of. I'm
 very grateful that Rich and all the rest of the Clojure developers,
 contributors, library authors, etc. are giving their time, effort and focus
 to make this community what it is, awesome! A very big shout out to all of
 you.

 Clearly there is a spectrum of software that runs the gamut from
 operating systems, languages, databases, tools and other utility code, up
 through more targeted platforms such as SAS, CRM, SalesForce type systems.
 Another example class of software might target an industry such as
 Construction Project Management systems or even custom software written
 in-house or by a consultancy for a specific customer (that could, in
 theory, be refactored and sold to another customer), software written for a
 specific piece of hardware (my day job) and finally software written by the
 NSA, which has no market value whatsoever. As the utility for a wider
 audience decreases so too does the potential market, which in turn affects
 how licensing terms are chosen for any given project.

 Each of these classes of software seems to have different requirements
 for licensing terms. Typically, OSS projects tend to fall under the
 utility class and has the widest audience, almost by
 necessity/definition, and seems to do best with very lenient license terms.
 All of these classes of software overlap to some degree in their needs for
 things like developer mind share or the availability of engineers to work
 on a project, technology or code base.

 Layered on top of the pragmatic concerns listed above are the larger
 moral (e.g. freedom) and societal (IP/patents, OccupyStartups?) factors
 that influence the choice of licensing terms for a code base. Clearly the
 GPL and other Open Source licenses are very opinionated in their terms.

 In reviewing your license terms, I don't know what class of software your
 license is intended to target. Your approach may have a fatal flaw in that
 the time it takes to bootstrap is highly variable and having a fixed
 deadline might fit some projects/markets but not others.

 In my thirty years of working in the Silicon Valley for many different
 startups we were almost always too early into the market. This left us
 running out of money and scrambling to find other sources of revenue
 (pivoting in modern parlance) and inevitably shuttering the business or
 being bought out for very small fractions of the potential value. We built
 a Tivo-like system before there was a Tivo, we did ads and coupons on gas
 pumps, ATMs and grocery checkout terminals long before there was Groupon,
 we built teleradiology systems before telemedicine became a thing, etc.
 etc. I once filed a trademark application that described/covered the
 features provided by GitHub, LinkedIn, Atlassian, Asana, Slack, AngelList
 and Kickstarter -- predating all of them by ten years or more. If only I
 had help getting going in those early days... sigh.

 Another problem I see is this, why would I work hard to bootstrap a
 project, to prove it has economic viability only to have someone else come
 along, fork my code base and compete with me? It seems that the time-bomb
 terms will filter out certain classes of software from using the license.

 At the risk of being redundant, I will once again mention the Co-op
 Source License. This license has been under development for a number of
 years now and attempts to solve the Free Rider problem in OSS. As with your
 license, the basic premise is to strike a balance between OSS licensing
 terms and traditional closed source licenses.

 It does this by having the code owned by all the members of the
 cooperative (often an LLC for the purpose of fitting into existing legal
 frameworks.) Members of the cooperative share the code as well as the
 rights and responsibilities that come along with building a commercially
 viable project. Projects are organized in a democratic fashion w.r.t.
 general goals, direction, large decisions, etc. but are run day-to-day like
 many OSS projects are by a core group of maintainers with the lead role
 being rotated on a release by release basis.

 Individual projects are expected to be federated into a larger whole (a
 not-for-profit corporation) so that the result looks a lot like the Valve
 corporation is organized - a very flat organization with lots of autonomy
 for individual projects and members with a common support structure that
 helps with common services for the members/projects. This organization
 would provide funding mechanisms (via membership fees, direct investment
 and/or crowdfunding) as well as legal, marketing, sales and other services
 for the member projects, either directly or contracted to outside firms.

 By incorporating the seven cooperative principles into our software
 license and membership agreements, we enjoy the benefits of being a
 cooperative

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Tj Gabbour]

 their time, effort and focus 
 to make this community what it is, awesome! A very big shout out to all of 
 you.

 Clearly there is a spectrum of software that runs the gamut from 
 operating systems, languages, databases, tools and other utility code, up 
 through more targeted platforms such as SAS, CRM, SalesForce type systems. 
 Another example class of software might target an industry such as 
 Construction Project Management systems or even custom software written 
 in-house or by a consultancy for a specific customer (that could, in 
 theory, be refactored and sold to another customer), software written for a 
 specific piece of hardware (my day job) and finally software written by the 
 NSA, which has no market value whatsoever. As the utility for a wider 
 audience decreases so too does the potential market, which in turn affects 
 how licensing terms are chosen for any given project.

 Each of these classes of software seems to have different requirements 
 for licensing terms. Typically, OSS projects tend to fall under the 
 utility class and has the widest audience, almost by 
 necessity/definition, and seems to do best with very lenient license terms. 
 All of these classes of software overlap to some degree in their needs for 
 things like developer mind share or the availability of engineers to work 
 on a project, technology or code base.

 Layered on top of the pragmatic concerns listed above are the larger 
 moral (e.g. freedom) and societal (IP/patents, OccupyStartups?) factors 
 that influence the choice of licensing terms for a code base. Clearly the 
 GPL and other Open Source licenses are very opinionated in their terms.

 In reviewing your license terms, I don't know what class of software your 
 license is intended to target. Your approach may have a fatal flaw in that 
 the time it takes to bootstrap is highly variable and having a fixed 
 deadline might fit some projects/markets but not others.

 In my thirty years of working in the Silicon Valley for many different 
 startups we were almost always too early into the market. This left us 
 running out of money and scrambling to find other sources of revenue 
 (pivoting in modern parlance) and inevitably shuttering the business or 
 being bought out for very small fractions of the potential value. We built 
 a Tivo-like system before there was a Tivo, we did ads and coupons on gas 
 pumps, ATMs and grocery checkout terminals long before there was Groupon, 
 we built teleradiology systems before telemedicine became a thing, etc. 
 etc. I once filed a trademark application that described/covered the 
 features provided by GitHub, LinkedIn, Atlassian, Asana, Slack, AngelList 
 and Kickstarter -- predating all of them by ten years or more. If only I 
 had help getting going in those early days... sigh.

 Another problem I see is this, why would I work hard to bootstrap a 
 project, to prove it has economic viability only to have someone else come 
 along, fork my code base and compete with me? It seems that the time-bomb 
 terms will filter out certain classes of software from using the license.

 At the risk of being redundant, I will once again mention the Co-op 
 Source License. This license has been under development for a number of 
 years now and attempts to solve the Free Rider problem in OSS. As with your 
 license, the basic premise is to strike a balance between OSS licensing 
 terms and traditional closed source licenses.

 It does this by having the code owned by all the members of the 
 cooperative (often an LLC for the purpose of fitting into existing legal 
 frameworks.) Members of the cooperative share the code as well as the 
 rights and responsibilities that come along with building a commercially 
 viable project. Projects are organized in a democratic fashion w.r.t. 
 general goals, direction, large decisions, etc. but are run day-to-day like 
 many OSS projects are by a core group of maintainers with the lead role 
 being rotated on a release by release basis.

 Individual projects are expected to be federated into a larger whole (a 
 not-for-profit corporation) so that the result looks a lot like the Valve 
 corporation is organized - a very flat organization with lots of autonomy 
 for individual projects and members with a common support structure that 
 helps with common services for the members/projects. This organization 
 would provide funding mechanisms (via membership fees, direct investment 
 and/or crowdfunding) as well as legal, marketing, sales and other services 
 for the member projects, either directly or contracted to outside firms.

 By incorporating the seven cooperative principles into our software 
 license and membership agreements, we enjoy the benefits of being a 
 cooperative: cooperatives are one of the most stable forms of enterprise, 
 often surviving two, four or even ten times longer a typical commercial 
 enterprise.

 It is interesting that someone brought up the subject of Credit

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Daniel Kersten]

One thing worth pointing out is that OSS needn't be free as in beer.

I've paid for OSS SaaS products because I don't want to host and admin them
myself, for example.

If your service provides something above and beyond what the source
provides (and the OSS freedom), then you *may* still have a business. Maybe.

On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:42 Alan Moore kahunamo...@coopsource.org wrote:

 Fergal,

 *Warning* - Wall of text ahead! If you think OSS works perfectly fine the
 way it is today feel free to press delete now...

 I've been holding back commenting on this thread to see where it would go.
 It is nice to see everyone's take on the need for (or not) a solution to
 the lack of an OSS business model. From what I can tell, there really
 isn't a business model in OSS at all. Almost by definition, the market
 for OSS is a failed market. What other industry/market exists where the
 price of goods is $0?

 Freedom issues aside, when you give away the fruits of your hard labor you
 are doing just that, giving it away and that in no way constitutes a sale.
 The Free Rider problem is alive and well, that is just human nature. I
 would love to live in a world where this isn't true and I actively work
 towards a future when we can all just work on whatever scratches our itch,
 but so far we are not there yet.

 Of course, ancillary to the lack of a price/valuation for the code itself,
 companies still make money by various other means given the environment
 created by the OSS they give away. I doubt that Clojure or any other OSS
 project has ever made any significant cash flow just giving away code.
 Conferences, books, consulting services, freemium, value added Closed
 Source/Dual License products and all the rest make up the difference
 (hopefully!) Sometimes just the marketing visibility generated by giving
 away code is enough to cover the costs of producing it. In that way, OSS
 can be accounted for as a marketing give away from which other revenue
 and goodwill will flow. This is obvious stuff we all know.

 To be perfectly honest, I am not a fan of the GPL or any other viral
 license. I do not believe code needs to be free. Code is code, an
 inanimate artifact of human labor. Everyone is free to give theirs away - I
 think this is admirable and altruistic behavior that we need more of. I'm
 very grateful that Rich and all the rest of the Clojure developers,
 contributors, library authors, etc. are giving their time, effort and focus
 to make this community what it is, awesome! A very big shout out to all of
 you.

 Clearly there is a spectrum of software that runs the gamut from operating
 systems, languages, databases, tools and other utility code, up through
 more targeted platforms such as SAS, CRM, SalesForce type systems. Another
 example class of software might target an industry such as Construction
 Project Management systems or even custom software written in-house or by a
 consultancy for a specific customer (that could, in theory, be refactored
 and sold to another customer), software written for a specific piece of
 hardware (my day job) and finally software written by the NSA, which has no
 market value whatsoever. As the utility for a wider audience decreases so
 too does the potential market, which in turn affects how licensing terms
 are chosen for any given project.

 Each of these classes of software seems to have different requirements for
 licensing terms. Typically, OSS projects tend to fall under the utility
 class and has the widest audience, almost by necessity/definition, and
 seems to do best with very lenient license terms. All of these classes of
 software overlap to some degree in their needs for things like developer
 mind share or the availability of engineers to work on a project,
 technology or code base.

 Layered on top of the pragmatic concerns listed above are the larger moral
 (e.g. freedom) and societal (IP/patents, OccupyStartups?) factors that
 influence the choice of licensing terms for a code base. Clearly the GPL
 and other Open Source licenses are very opinionated in their terms.

 In reviewing your license terms, I don't know what class of software your
 license is intended to target. Your approach may have a fatal flaw in that
 the time it takes to bootstrap is highly variable and having a fixed
 deadline might fit some projects/markets but not others.

 In my thirty years of working in the Silicon Valley for many different
 startups we were almost always too early into the market. This left us
 running out of money and scrambling to find other sources of revenue
 (pivoting in modern parlance) and inevitably shuttering the business or
 being bought out for very small fractions of the potential value. We built
 a Tivo-like system before there was a Tivo, we did ads and coupons on gas
 pumps, ATMs and grocery checkout terminals long before there was Groupon,
 we built teleradiology systems before telemedicine became a thing, etc.
 etc. I once filed a trademark

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Alan Moore]

 Project Management systems or even custom software written in-house or by a
 consultancy for a specific customer (that could, in theory, be refactored
 and sold to another customer), software written for a specific piece of
 hardware (my day job) and finally software written by the NSA, which has no
 market value whatsoever. As the utility for a wider audience decreases so
 too does the potential market, which in turn affects how licensing terms
 are chosen for any given project.

 Each of these classes of software seems to have different requirements for
 licensing terms. Typically, OSS projects tend to fall under the utility
 class and has the widest audience, almost by necessity/definition, and
 seems to do best with very lenient license terms. All of these classes of
 software overlap to some degree in their needs for things like developer
 mind share or the availability of engineers to work on a project,
 technology or code base.

 Layered on top of the pragmatic concerns listed above are the larger moral
 (e.g. freedom) and societal (IP/patents, OccupyStartups?) factors that
 influence the choice of licensing terms for a code base. Clearly the GPL
 and other Open Source licenses are very opinionated in their terms.

 In reviewing your license terms, I don't know what class of software your
 license is intended to target. Your approach may have a fatal flaw in that
 the time it takes to bootstrap is highly variable and having a fixed
 deadline might fit some projects/markets but not others.

 In my thirty years of working in the Silicon Valley for many different
 startups we were almost always too early into the market. This left us
 running out of money and scrambling to find other sources of revenue
 (pivoting in modern parlance) and inevitably shuttering the business or
 being bought out for very small fractions of the potential value. We built
 a Tivo-like system before there was a Tivo, we did ads and coupons on gas
 pumps, ATMs and grocery checkout terminals long before there was Groupon,
 we built teleradiology systems before telemedicine became a thing, etc.
 etc. I once filed a trademark application that described/covered the
 features provided by GitHub, LinkedIn, Atlassian, Asana, Slack, AngelList
 and Kickstarter -- predating all of them by ten years or more. If only I
 had help getting going in those early days... sigh.

 Another problem I see is this, why would I work hard to bootstrap a
 project, to prove it has economic viability only to have someone else come
 along, fork my code base and compete with me? It seems that the time-bomb
 terms will filter out certain classes of software from using the license.

 At the risk of being redundant, I will once again mention the Co-op Source
 License. This license has been under development for a number of years now
 and attempts to solve the Free Rider problem in OSS. As with your license,
 the basic premise is to strike a balance between OSS licensing terms and
 traditional closed source licenses.

 It does this by having the code owned by all the members of the
 cooperative (often an LLC for the purpose of fitting into existing legal
 frameworks.) Members of the cooperative share the code as well as the
 rights and responsibilities that come along with building a commercially
 viable project. Projects are organized in a democratic fashion w.r.t.
 general goals, direction, large decisions, etc. but are run day-to-day like
 many OSS projects are by a core group of maintainers with the lead role
 being rotated on a release by release basis.

 Individual projects are expected to be federated into a larger whole (a
 not-for-profit corporation) so that the result looks a lot like the Valve
 corporation is organized - a very flat organization with lots of autonomy
 for individual projects and members with a common support structure that
 helps with common services for the members/projects. This organization
 would provide funding mechanisms (via membership fees, direct investment
 and/or crowdfunding) as well as legal, marketing, sales and other services
 for the member projects, either directly or contracted to outside firms.

 By incorporating the seven cooperative principles into our software
 license and membership agreements, we enjoy the benefits of being a
 cooperative: cooperatives are one of the most stable forms of enterprise,
 often surviving two, four or even ten times longer a typical commercial
 enterprise.

 It is interesting that someone brought up the subject of Credit Unions vs
 Big Banks. Guess what, Credit Unions are cooperatives! I see this approach
 providing an alternative to large tech companies like Oracle, Google,
 Facebook and or VC backed startups. Cooperatives distribute a majority of
 profits back to the members in accordance with their contributions.
 Utilizing direct democracy allows each member to have the same power over
 the direction of the project(s) and the community as a whole.

 I suppose our visions

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Laurent PETIT]

Is this discussion still related to clojure in any way ? (If at all)

Le lundi 8 juin 2015, Warren warren.stra...@gmail.com a écrit :


 If you are concerned about the free-rider problem, why not dual license
 under AGPL?

 It's seems sufficiently viral that most commercial entities will elect
 to take a commercial license, but it allows the source to be leveraged by
 other open source projects.

 The only downside is that AGPL does not seem to promote a lot of
 contribution - but I gather that is not your main concern.




 On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 4:17:43 AM UTC-6, Fergal Byrne wrote:


 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the
 best of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea
 - MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].

 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a
 dual-licensed project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL.
 Essentially, the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their
 product and then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any
 commercial licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their
 derived products.

 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 Regards,

 Fergal Byrne

 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to
 be Open Sourced (cough)?

 [1]
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me

 --

 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

 e:fergalby...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Alan Moore]

Fergal,

*Warning* - Wall of text ahead! If you think OSS works perfectly fine the 
way it is today feel free to press delete now...

I've been holding back commenting on this thread to see where it would go. 
It is nice to see everyone's take on the need for (or not) a solution to 
the lack of an OSS business model. From what I can tell, there really 
isn't a business model in OSS at all. Almost by definition, the market 
for OSS is a failed market. What other industry/market exists where the 
price of goods is $0?

Freedom issues aside, when you give away the fruits of your hard labor you 
are doing just that, giving it away and that in no way constitutes a sale. 
The Free Rider problem is alive and well, that is just human nature. I 
would love to live in a world where this isn't true and I actively work 
towards a future when we can all just work on whatever scratches our itch, 
but so far we are not there yet.

Of course, ancillary to the lack of a price/valuation for the code itself, 
companies still make money by various other means given the environment 
created by the OSS they give away. I doubt that Clojure or any other OSS 
project has ever made any significant cash flow just giving away code. 
Conferences, books, consulting services, freemium, value added Closed 
Source/Dual License products and all the rest make up the difference 
(hopefully!) Sometimes just the marketing visibility generated by giving 
away code is enough to cover the costs of producing it. In that way, OSS 
can be accounted for as a marketing give away from which other revenue 
and goodwill will flow. This is obvious stuff we all know.

To be perfectly honest, I am not a fan of the GPL or any other viral 
license. I do not believe code needs to be free. Code is code, an 
inanimate artifact of human labor. Everyone is free to give theirs away - I 
think this is admirable and altruistic behavior that we need more of. I'm 
very grateful that Rich and all the rest of the Clojure developers, 
contributors, library authors, etc. are giving their time, effort and focus 
to make this community what it is, awesome! A very big shout out to all of 
you.

Clearly there is a spectrum of software that runs the gamut from operating 
systems, languages, databases, tools and other utility code, up through 
more targeted platforms such as SAS, CRM, SalesForce type systems. Another 
example class of software might target an industry such as Construction 
Project Management systems or even custom software written in-house or by a 
consultancy for a specific customer (that could, in theory, be refactored 
and sold to another customer), software written for a specific piece of 
hardware (my day job) and finally software written by the NSA, which has no 
market value whatsoever. As the utility for a wider audience decreases so 
too does the potential market, which in turn affects how licensing terms 
are chosen for any given project.

Each of these classes of software seems to have different requirements for 
licensing terms. Typically, OSS projects tend to fall under the utility 
class and has the widest audience, almost by necessity/definition, and 
seems to do best with very lenient license terms. All of these classes of 
software overlap to some degree in their needs for things like developer 
mind share or the availability of engineers to work on a project, 
technology or code base.

Layered on top of the pragmatic concerns listed above are the larger moral 
(e.g. freedom) and societal (IP/patents, OccupyStartups?) factors that 
influence the choice of licensing terms for a code base. Clearly the GPL 
and other Open Source licenses are very opinionated in their terms.

In reviewing your license terms, I don't know what class of software your 
license is intended to target. Your approach may have a fatal flaw in that 
the time it takes to bootstrap is highly variable and having a fixed 
deadline might fit some projects/markets but not others.

In my thirty years of working in the Silicon Valley for many different 
startups we were almost always too early into the market. This left us 
running out of money and scrambling to find other sources of revenue 
(pivoting in modern parlance) and inevitably shuttering the business or 
being bought out for very small fractions of the potential value. We built 
a Tivo-like system before there was a Tivo, we did ads and coupons on gas 
pumps, ATMs and grocery checkout terminals long before there was Groupon, 
we built teleradiology systems before telemedicine became a thing, etc. 
etc. I once filed a trademark application that described/covered the 
features provided by GitHub, LinkedIn, Atlassian, Asana, Slack, AngelList 
and Kickstarter -- predating all of them by ten years or more. If only I 
had help getting going in those early days... sigh.

Another problem I see is this, why would I work hard to bootstrap a 
project, to prove it has economic viability only to have someone else come 
along, fork my

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Warren]

If you are concerned about the free-rider problem, why not dual license 
under AGPL?

It's seems sufficiently viral that most commercial entities will elect to 
take a commercial license, but it allows the source to be leveraged by 
other open source projects. 

The only downside is that AGPL does not seem to promote a lot of 
contribution - but I gather that is not your main concern.

 


On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 4:17:43 AM UTC-6, Fergal Byrne wrote:


 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the best 
 of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea - 
 MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1]. 

 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a dual-licensed 
 project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL. Essentially, 
 the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their product and 
 then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any commercial 
 licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their derived 
 products.

 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative 
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market, 
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new 
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all 
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful 
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 Regards,

 Fergal Byrne

 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to be 
 Open Sourced (cough)? 

 [1] 
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me

 -- 

 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - 
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC 
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

 e:fergalby...@gmail.com javascript: t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie javascript: http://www.adnet.ie
  

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Colin Fleming]

 Bitcoin?


Unfortunately my local supermarket doesn't accept it yet.


On 7 June 2015 at 04:11, Fluid Dynamics a2093...@trbvm.com wrote:

 On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 5:05:59 AM UTC-4, Colin Fleming wrote:

 Thanks for the kind words Fergal, and as I said in my other mail, I'm
 very pleased to see more people thinking about this problem. It's a hard
 one, for sure - I'd love to be able to open source Cursive but I haven't
 seen any viable way to do so except by selling it to a company who can
 afford to pay me to work on it.

 And I'm always a huge fan of disrupting exploitative industries - I wish
 you the best of luck with that. I'm dealing with a lot of banks and payment
 systems at the moment, and I'd dearly love a disruptor ray!


 Bitcoin?

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Colin Fleming]

Thanks for the kind words Fergal, and as I said in my other mail, I'm very
pleased to see more people thinking about this problem. It's a hard one,
for sure - I'd love to be able to open source Cursive but I haven't seen
any viable way to do so except by selling it to a company who can afford to
pay me to work on it.

And I'm always a huge fan of disrupting exploitative industries - I wish
you the best of luck with that. I'm dealing with a lot of banks and payment
systems at the moment, and I'd dearly love a disruptor ray!

Cheers,
Colin

On 5 June 2015 at 23:31, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Colin,

 I'm a huge fan of Cursive, and have heard you discuss the challenge of
 earning back your investment, so I'm completely on your side on that. This
 idea is for people who wish to dual-license their tech, but can't see a
 simple way to have both a GPL-based community and a revenue stream. It's
 certainly not for everyone, but it is another option for some.

 We've already received feedback about the two years, so it'll likely be
 owner-selectable between 2 and 4 years. The license is transitive, so you'd
 actually have up to 4 (or 8) years of licensing income to plan for. The
 limit is to encourage projects to move on to the next major version or new
 projects, leaving the open source side to continue development.

 The evil reference certainly wasn't aimed at you (or Cognitect)! That
 idea is about encouraging small businesses to disrupt exploitative big
 businesses, and to spread their technology to others around the world. An
 example would be developing software to run a local Credit Union, helping
 them to combat the marketing and lobbying might of the big banks.

 Cheers,

 Fergal


 On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Colin Fleming 
 colin.mailingl...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm the author of Cursive, which I'm planning to sell and which will be
 (mostly) closed source. What I don't see here is what would be the
 advantage to me in using this license? I'm not releasing closed source
 because I'm evil, but because I want Cursive development to be sustainable
 so I can continue to develop it and my family can continue to eat and not
 live in cardboard boxes. Charging for closed source software is the only
 realistic model I can see that achieves this goal.

 I suspect the Datomic team's reasoning is similar - their pricing is far
 from outrageous for the sort of product they're offering. What would be the
 advantage to them in doing this? They would simply lose the ability to
 charge in two years' time, and they would also lose the vast majority of
 their clients who also wouldn't want to be bound by these restrictions.
 Nobody wins, as far as I can see.

 On 5 June 2015 at 22:17, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the
 best of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea
 - MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].

 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a
 dual-licensed project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL.
 Essentially, the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their
 product and then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any
 commercial licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their
 derived products.

 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 Regards,

 Fergal Byrne

 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to
 be Open Sourced (cough)?

 [1]
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me

 --

 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

 e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

 --
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 clojure

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Colin Fleming]

 Lots of companies already are successfully built on open source


I'm not sure there are so many, actually. Or at least, that there are very
many models - it's almost exclusively the Red Hat model. SideKiq is another
(open source feature limited free edition, closed source paid Enterprise
edition) - JetBrains use this model for IntelliJ and PyCharm too. However
in the JetBrains case they didn't make their money this way, it's more like
the money they made from selling closed source software allows them the
luxury of doing that to drive further adoption and increase mindshare. I
wouldn't classify Cognitect's model as open source - they maintain open
source that they use, sure, like many other companies, but their money
comes from consultancy and closed source licences.

I agree that the sustainability of closed source software is an issue for
potential users of that software, but Franklin's escrow system seems like a
much more viable solution to that problem. And I think that convincing
clients to use software that will oblige them to open their own source two
years down the track is probably much more difficult that convincing them
to use software from a company that might go out of business or be acquired.

I totally agree that it's up to everyone to make their own choices and I
absolutely welcome more options and opinions - I'm not arguing that Fergal
shouldn't go ahead with it and I hope my initial email didn't sound too
critical - it was certainly not my intention. It's more like feedback from
someone who's very interested and invested in the topic that the benefit of
this proposal isn't immediately obvious.

On 6 June 2015 at 00:46, Daniel Kersten dkers...@gmail.com wrote:

 To chime in on why would I do this:

 Lots of companies already are successfully built on open source, so I
 don't buy the *but then I can't make money* argument - at least, not as
 a blanket statement . There are two models I've commonly seen used: The
 direct Red Hat model (open source software, commercial support) and the
 indirect Cognitect model (Datomic is closed source, but its built with and
 on a wealth of open source which Cognitect maintain). The Red Hat model
 could probably work for Datomic as its something where customers likely
 want commercial support for, but its unlikely to work for Cursive.

 Basically, it can and does work for many people, but to directly address
 the question why? - I've been involved in startups for a few years and a
 very common question I was asked by potential customers is *but what if
 you go out of business? Will we still be able to use the service?*

 What Fergal is proposing (or the escrow alternative that Franklin
 mentioned) aims to solve that and give these customers peace of mind.

 This is likely only relevant to early stage startups, however. An
 established company like Cognitect likely doesn't have this issue and
 therefore has more flexibility in how they offer their products.

 At the end of the day, its up to each individual to decide whats best for
 them, their software and their business, but having options available is a
 good thing, if this license can be made work.


 On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 at 13:27 Franklin M. Siler m...@franksiler.com wrote:


 On Jun 5, 2015, at 0711, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  The GPL already has a clause which allows the owner (and downstream
 user) to defer, for 12 months, the full obligations of GPL - see this guy's
 take:
 https://github.com/zooko/tgppl/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL-v2-draft.rst
 
  Our idea is a bit more startup-friendly - on the commercial side of the
 dual license, everyone can keep their improvements/extensions closed for up
 to the full duration of the time-bomb, but they then have to give it all
 back.
 
  As to enforceability, I'm guessing copying the language of GPL is
 hopefully sufficient. These things are rarely tested as far as I know, but
 I'm sure someone knows better than me.
 
 I think the GPL, MIT, Apache, etc. licenses are probably fine for real
 world use.  Why?  Because everyone uses them.  They are industry norms.

 The license you linked is a draft; however, mainline GPLv3 has some
 specific terms related to timing- see section 6(b).

 The thing is that licenses are not “contracts” in the sense that a
 contract is offer + acceptance + consideration.  A license is a promise not
 to sue, and there are a number of subtle but important things that may or
 may not work in that situation.  For example, there is no blanket rule on
 the relationship between fair use and a license agreement.  All of this is
 complicated in that purchased software may have a controlling contract on
 top of the licensing agreement, so the enforceability of the system as a
 whole can get quite messy.

 All I’m saying here: I’m not sure that a court will buy that “if you do X
 before this date, I won’t sue you; but then if you do this after Y date, I
 will” is a valid license.  It’s certainly not the norm.

 Frank

Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 5:05:59 AM UTC-4, Colin Fleming wrote:

 Thanks for the kind words Fergal, and as I said in my other mail, I'm very 
 pleased to see more people thinking about this problem. It's a hard one, 
 for sure - I'd love to be able to open source Cursive but I haven't seen 
 any viable way to do so except by selling it to a company who can afford to 
 pay me to work on it. 

 And I'm always a huge fan of disrupting exploitative industries - I wish 
 you the best of luck with that. I'm dealing with a lot of banks and payment 
 systems at the moment, and I'd dearly love a disruptor ray!


Bitcoin? 

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fergal Byrne]

Hi Colin,

I'm a huge fan of Cursive, and have heard you discuss the challenge of
earning back your investment, so I'm completely on your side on that. This
idea is for people who wish to dual-license their tech, but can't see a
simple way to have both a GPL-based community and a revenue stream. It's
certainly not for everyone, but it is another option for some.

We've already received feedback about the two years, so it'll likely be
owner-selectable between 2 and 4 years. The license is transitive, so you'd
actually have up to 4 (or 8) years of licensing income to plan for. The
limit is to encourage projects to move on to the next major version or new
projects, leaving the open source side to continue development.

The evil reference certainly wasn't aimed at you (or Cognitect)! That
idea is about encouraging small businesses to disrupt exploitative big
businesses, and to spread their technology to others around the world. An
example would be developing software to run a local Credit Union, helping
them to combat the marketing and lobbying might of the big banks.

Cheers,

Fergal


On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Colin Fleming colin.mailingl...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I'm the author of Cursive, which I'm planning to sell and which will be
 (mostly) closed source. What I don't see here is what would be the
 advantage to me in using this license? I'm not releasing closed source
 because I'm evil, but because I want Cursive development to be sustainable
 so I can continue to develop it and my family can continue to eat and not
 live in cardboard boxes. Charging for closed source software is the only
 realistic model I can see that achieves this goal.

 I suspect the Datomic team's reasoning is similar - their pricing is far
 from outrageous for the sort of product they're offering. What would be the
 advantage to them in doing this? They would simply lose the ability to
 charge in two years' time, and they would also lose the vast majority of
 their clients who also wouldn't want to be bound by these restrictions.
 Nobody wins, as far as I can see.

 On 5 June 2015 at 22:17, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:


 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the
 best of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea
 - MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].

 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a
 dual-licensed project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL.
 Essentially, the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their
 product and then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any
 commercial licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their
 derived products.

 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 Regards,

 Fergal Byrne

 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to
 be Open Sourced (cough)?

 [1]
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me

 --

 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

 e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Magnus Therning]

On 5 June 2015 at 13:16, Colin Fleming colin.mailingl...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm the author of Cursive, which I'm planning to sell and which will be
 (mostly) closed source. What I don't see here is what would be the advantage
 to me in using this license? I'm not releasing closed source because I'm
 evil, but because I want Cursive development to be sustainable so I can
 continue to develop it and my family can continue to eat and not live in
 cardboard boxes. Charging for closed source software is the only realistic
 model I can see that achieves this goal.

 I suspect the Datomic team's reasoning is similar - their pricing is far
 from outrageous for the sort of product they're offering. What would be the
 advantage to them in doing this? They would simply lose the ability to
 charge in two years' time, and they would also lose the vast majority of
 their clients who also wouldn't want to be bound by these restrictions.
 Nobody wins, as far as I can see.

I gather the idea is to increase the chance of success.  By promising
to release it as FLOSS in N years, unless there's a sustainable
business supporting it before then, customers might feel less hesitant
betting on the SW in question, which then increases the likelihood of
a sustainable business appearing.

Whether it'll actually work is something I'll leave for others to discuss.

/M

-- 
Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
email: mag...@therning.org   jabber: mag...@therning.org
twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus

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[ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fergal Byrne]

An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the best
of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea -
MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].

The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a dual-licensed
project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL. Essentially,
the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their product and
then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any commercial
licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their derived
products.

One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

Regards,

Fergal Byrne

p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to be
Open Sourced (cough)?

[1]
http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
[2] http://occupystartups.me

-- 

Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Colin Fleming]

I'm the author of Cursive, which I'm planning to sell and which will be
(mostly) closed source. What I don't see here is what would be the
advantage to me in using this license? I'm not releasing closed source
because I'm evil, but because I want Cursive development to be sustainable
so I can continue to develop it and my family can continue to eat and not
live in cardboard boxes. Charging for closed source software is the only
realistic model I can see that achieves this goal.

I suspect the Datomic team's reasoning is similar - their pricing is far
from outrageous for the sort of product they're offering. What would be the
advantage to them in doing this? They would simply lose the ability to
charge in two years' time, and they would also lose the vast majority of
their clients who also wouldn't want to be bound by these restrictions.
Nobody wins, as far as I can see.

On 5 June 2015 at 22:17, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:


 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the best
 of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea -
 MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].

 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a dual-licensed
 project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL. Essentially,
 the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their product and
 then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any commercial
 licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their derived
 products.

 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.

 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 Regards,

 Fergal Byrne

 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to be
 Open Sourced (cough)?

 [1]
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me

 --

 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

 e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Franklin M. Siler]

On Jun 5, 2015, at 0517, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:

 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the best of 
 Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea - MySQL 
 creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1]. 
 
 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a dual-licensed 
 project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL. Essentially, the 
 project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their product and then 
 must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any commercial licensees 
 must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their derived products.
 
 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative 
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market, your 
 innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new startup 
 can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all derived 
 products become Open Source and are free to all.
 
 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful 
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

I’ve written a lawyer friend who does more than I do with licensing; I teach in 
this area but don’t normally advise clients on it.  I would be concerned that a 
court might not apply the license as intended, but then of course- you’d have 
to analyze whether these things ever wind up in front of a judge.

This timed scheme seems like an overcomplicated way of achieving the desired 
result.  It would be simpler, and less restrictive on the dev, to simply escrow 
your source.  If you should become unable to support the software, the escrow 
agent is directed to publicize the source.

I wrote a bit more about related issues for Mailpile: 
http://franksiler.com/on-choosing-open-licenses/

Frank



Franklin M. Siler
Counselor at Law|||   franksiler.com

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Luc Prefontaine]

I agree. I can't see how you can build a business model out of this.

We already lower the cost for our customers by using open source as much as 
possible.


Luc P.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 5, 2015, at 12:16, Colin Fleming colin.mailingl...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I'm the author of Cursive, which I'm planning to sell and which will be 
 (mostly) closed source. What I don't see here is what would be the advantage 
 to me in using this license? I'm not releasing closed source because I'm 
 evil, but because I want Cursive development to be sustainable so I can 
 continue to develop it and my family can continue to eat and not live in 
 cardboard boxes. Charging for closed source software is the only realistic 
 model I can see that achieves this goal. 
 
 I suspect the Datomic team's reasoning is similar - their pricing is far from 
 outrageous for the sort of product they're offering. What would be the 
 advantage to them in doing this? They would simply lose the ability to charge 
 in two years' time, and they would also lose the vast majority of their 
 clients who also wouldn't want to be bound by these restrictions. Nobody 
 wins, as far as I can see.
 
 On 5 June 2015 at 22:17, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the best 
 of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea - 
 MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1]. 
 
 The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a dual-licensed 
 project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL. Essentially, 
 the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their product and 
 then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any commercial 
 licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their derived 
 products.
 
 One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative 
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market, 
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new 
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all 
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.
 
 We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful 
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.
 
 Regards,
 
 Fergal Byrne
 
 p.s. I wonder if this might be a solution to the clamour for Datomic to be 
 Open Sourced (cough)? 
 
 [1] 
 http://monty-says.blogspot.ie/2013/06/business-source-software-license-with.html
 [2] http://occupystartups.me
 
 -- 
 
 Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT
 
 http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
 http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne
 
 Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - 
 https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex
 
 Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC 
 Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines
 
 e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
 Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
 Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie
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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fergal Byrne]

Hi Frank,

That's a great post (and the Mailpile post is also a great discussion of
the topic), thanks for sharing.

The GPL already has a clause which allows the owner (and downstream user)
to defer, for 12 months, the full obligations of GPL - see this guy's take:
https://github.com/zooko/tgppl/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL-v2-draft.rst

Our idea is a bit more startup-friendly - on the commercial side of the
dual license, everyone can keep their improvements/extensions closed for up
to the full duration of the time-bomb, but they then have to give it all
back.

As to enforceability, I'm guessing copying the language of GPL is hopefully
sufficient. These things are rarely tested as far as I know, but I'm sure
someone knows better than me.

Appreciate the feedback,

Fergal

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Franklin M. Siler m...@franksiler.com
wrote:

 On Jun 5, 2015, at 0517, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:

  An old-school C++ dev and I have started an initiative to combine the
 best of Open Source with a limited commercial license. It's not a new idea
 - MySQL creator Monty Widenius thought of something less viral in 2013 [1].
 
  The Time-Bombed Open License [2] is the commercial side of a
 dual-licensed project, best paired with something strongly viral like GPL.
 Essentially, the project owner has 2 (up to 4) years to commercialise their
 product and then must go fully Open Source. The license is viral, so any
 commercial licensees must also use the TBOL and eventually open up their
 derived products.
 
  One major idea is to foster a culture of disruption of exploitative
 industries. If you can develop software to disrupt in your local market,
 your innovation can be used similarly by others elsewhere, and each new
 startup can improve on your work while earning their keep. Eventually, all
 derived products become Open Source and are free to all.
 
  We'd appreciate any comments, feedback and assistance from the wonderful
 Clojure community - we're up on twitter at @OccupyStartups.

 I’ve written a lawyer friend who does more than I do with licensing; I
 teach in this area but don’t normally advise clients on it.  I would be
 concerned that a court might not apply the license as intended, but then of
 course- you’d have to analyze whether these things ever wind up in front of
 a judge.

 This timed scheme seems like an overcomplicated way of achieving the
 desired result.  It would be simpler, and less restrictive on the dev, to
 simply escrow your source.  If you should become unable to support the
 software, the escrow agent is directed to publicize the source.

 I wrote a bit more about related issues for Mailpile:
 http://franksiler.com/on-choosing-open-licenses/

 Frank



 Franklin M. Siler
 Counselor at Law|||   franksiler.com

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-- 

Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Daniel Kersten]

To chime in on why would I do this:

Lots of companies already are successfully built on open source, so I don't
buy the *but then I can't make money* argument - at least, not as a
blanket statement . There are two models I've commonly seen used: The
direct Red Hat model (open source software, commercial support) and the
indirect Cognitect model (Datomic is closed source, but its built with and
on a wealth of open source which Cognitect maintain). The Red Hat model
could probably work for Datomic as its something where customers likely
want commercial support for, but its unlikely to work for Cursive.

Basically, it can and does work for many people, but to directly address
the question why? - I've been involved in startups for a few years and a
very common question I was asked by potential customers is *but what if
you go out of business? Will we still be able to use the service?*

What Fergal is proposing (or the escrow alternative that Franklin
mentioned) aims to solve that and give these customers peace of mind.

This is likely only relevant to early stage startups, however. An
established company like Cognitect likely doesn't have this issue and
therefore has more flexibility in how they offer their products.

At the end of the day, its up to each individual to decide whats best for
them, their software and their business, but having options available is a
good thing, if this license can be made work.


On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 at 13:27 Franklin M. Siler m...@franksiler.com wrote:


 On Jun 5, 2015, at 0711, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:

  The GPL already has a clause which allows the owner (and downstream
 user) to defer, for 12 months, the full obligations of GPL - see this guy's
 take:
 https://github.com/zooko/tgppl/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL-v2-draft.rst
 
  Our idea is a bit more startup-friendly - on the commercial side of the
 dual license, everyone can keep their improvements/extensions closed for up
 to the full duration of the time-bomb, but they then have to give it all
 back.
 
  As to enforceability, I'm guessing copying the language of GPL is
 hopefully sufficient. These things are rarely tested as far as I know, but
 I'm sure someone knows better than me.
 
 I think the GPL, MIT, Apache, etc. licenses are probably fine for real
 world use.  Why?  Because everyone uses them.  They are industry norms.

 The license you linked is a draft; however, mainline GPLv3 has some
 specific terms related to timing- see section 6(b).

 The thing is that licenses are not “contracts” in the sense that a
 contract is offer + acceptance + consideration.  A license is a promise not
 to sue, and there are a number of subtle but important things that may or
 may not work in that situation.  For example, there is no blanket rule on
 the relationship between fair use and a license agreement.  All of this is
 complicated in that purchased software may have a controlling contract on
 top of the licensing agreement, so the enforceability of the system as a
 whole can get quite messy.

 All I’m saying here: I’m not sure that a court will buy that “if you do X
 before this date, I won’t sue you; but then if you do this after Y date, I
 will” is a valid license.  It’s certainly not the norm.

 Frank


 Franklin M. Siler
 Counselor at Law|||   franksiler.com

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fergal Byrne]

Great comments, Dan.

Cognitect has the advantage that they already own the Open Source tech used
by Datomic, so they can internally commercially license that to
themselves. You can't do this (sell commercial products) including GPL
software you don't own to begin with. This idea is an attempt to solve that
problem (as well as the going out of business problem you mention, and
others).

The TBOL is indeed aimed at startups, or at small businesses thinking of
open sourcing their software or technology. It might also be a way to
sustainably build software for the not-for-profit sector.


On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Daniel Kersten dkers...@gmail.com wrote:

 To chime in on why would I do this:

 Lots of companies already are successfully built on open source, so I
 don't buy the *but then I can't make money* argument - at least, not as
 a blanket statement . There are two models I've commonly seen used: The
 direct Red Hat model (open source software, commercial support) and the
 indirect Cognitect model (Datomic is closed source, but its built with and
 on a wealth of open source which Cognitect maintain). The Red Hat model
 could probably work for Datomic as its something where customers likely
 want commercial support for, but its unlikely to work for Cursive.

 Basically, it can and does work for many people, but to directly address
 the question why? - I've been involved in startups for a few years and a
 very common question I was asked by potential customers is *but what if
 you go out of business? Will we still be able to use the service?*

 What Fergal is proposing (or the escrow alternative that Franklin
 mentioned) aims to solve that and give these customers peace of mind.

 This is likely only relevant to early stage startups, however. An
 established company like Cognitect likely doesn't have this issue and
 therefore has more flexibility in how they offer their products.

 At the end of the day, its up to each individual to decide whats best for
 them, their software and their business, but having options available is a
 good thing, if this license can be made work.


 On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 at 13:27 Franklin M. Siler m...@franksiler.com wrote:


 On Jun 5, 2015, at 0711, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  The GPL already has a clause which allows the owner (and downstream
 user) to defer, for 12 months, the full obligations of GPL - see this guy's
 take:
 https://github.com/zooko/tgppl/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL-v2-draft.rst
 
  Our idea is a bit more startup-friendly - on the commercial side of the
 dual license, everyone can keep their improvements/extensions closed for up
 to the full duration of the time-bomb, but they then have to give it all
 back.
 
  As to enforceability, I'm guessing copying the language of GPL is
 hopefully sufficient. These things are rarely tested as far as I know, but
 I'm sure someone knows better than me.
 
 I think the GPL, MIT, Apache, etc. licenses are probably fine for real
 world use.  Why?  Because everyone uses them.  They are industry norms.

 The license you linked is a draft; however, mainline GPLv3 has some
 specific terms related to timing- see section 6(b).

 The thing is that licenses are not “contracts” in the sense that a
 contract is offer + acceptance + consideration.  A license is a promise not
 to sue, and there are a number of subtle but important things that may or
 may not work in that situation.  For example, there is no blanket rule on
 the relationship between fair use and a license agreement.  All of this is
 complicated in that purchased software may have a controlling contract on
 top of the licensing agreement, so the enforceability of the system as a
 whole can get quite messy.

 All I’m saying here: I’m not sure that a court will buy that “if you do X
 before this date, I won’t sue you; but then if you do this after Y date, I
 will” is a valid license.  It’s certainly not the norm.

 Frank


 Franklin M. Siler
 Counselor at Law|||   franksiler.com

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Franklin M. Siler]

On Jun 5, 2015, at 0711, Fergal Byrne fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com wrote:

 The GPL already has a clause which allows the owner (and downstream user) to 
 defer, for 12 months, the full obligations of GPL - see this guy's take: 
 https://github.com/zooko/tgppl/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL-v2-draft.rst
 
 Our idea is a bit more startup-friendly - on the commercial side of the dual 
 license, everyone can keep their improvements/extensions closed for up to the 
 full duration of the time-bomb, but they then have to give it all back.
 
 As to enforceability, I'm guessing copying the language of GPL is hopefully 
 sufficient. These things are rarely tested as far as I know, but I'm sure 
 someone knows better than me.
 
I think the GPL, MIT, Apache, etc. licenses are probably fine for real world 
use.  Why?  Because everyone uses them.  They are industry norms.

The license you linked is a draft; however, mainline GPLv3 has some specific 
terms related to timing- see section 6(b).

The thing is that licenses are not “contracts” in the sense that a contract is 
offer + acceptance + consideration.  A license is a promise not to sue, and 
there are a number of subtle but important things that may or may not work in 
that situation.  For example, there is no blanket rule on the relationship 
between fair use and a license agreement.  All of this is complicated in that 
purchased software may have a controlling contract on top of the licensing 
agreement, so the enforceability of the system as a whole can get quite messy.

All I’m saying here: I’m not sure that a court will buy that “if you do X 
before this date, I won’t sue you; but then if you do this after Y date, I 
will” is a valid license.  It’s certainly not the norm.

Frank


Franklin M. Siler
Counselor at Law|||   franksiler.com

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Fergal Byrne]

LOL. That would require they be sold to Oracle, Magnus. That. Seems.
Unlikely.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.org wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 12:46:54PM +, Daniel Kersten wrote:
 [..]
  This is likely only relevant to early stage startups, however. An
  established company like Cognitect likely doesn't have this issue and
  therefore has more flexibility in how they offer their products.

 They can, however, be bought by Oracle ;)

 /M

 --
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 twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus

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 understand.
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-- 

Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT @fergbyrne

http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex
Co-creator @OccupyStartups Time-Bombed Open License http://occupystartups.me

Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Re: [ANN] Time-Bombed Open License - thoughts?

[Magnus Therning]

On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 12:46:54PM +, Daniel Kersten wrote:
[..]
 This is likely only relevant to early stage startups, however. An
 established company like Cognitect likely doesn't have this issue and
 therefore has more flexibility in how they offer their products.

They can, however, be bought by Oracle ;)

/M

-- 
Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4 
email: mag...@therning.org   jabber: mag...@therning.org
twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus

A system is composed of components: a component is something you
understand.
 -- Professor Howard Aiken

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