Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
In nova Scotia currently all boats have same rating. Sis. Stuck in snow. None are moving Seriously it is often stated that in other than fun races spin and non spin should be separate fleets. Mike phrf nova Scotia currently in sugarloaf, Maine From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of robert via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: March 24, 2015 12:02 AM To: Rick Brass; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet Rick said If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 CC sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best performer? Here in Nova Scotia, if we wish to race, we must register with the Nova Scotia Yachting Associationit provides a PHRF rating based on a declaration, e.g sails, fixed and/or folding propellers, etc. For example, (from my memory which might be fuzzy on this) the NSYA rates our CC 32 at a base PHRF of 165 with a 150% Genoabut with no spin (+18) and a two blade fixed prop (+6) our PHRF to race is 189. Here is the website if you are interested: http://www.sailnovascotia.ca/racing/phrf-racing/phrf-ns.html Don't overlook good in the pursuit of perfectionbecause what you are trying to achieve, there is 'no perfection'. And think about giving every competitor a bottle of an adult beveragethat will distract them from where they placed! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. . On 2015-03-22 6:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote: I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the same fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a wide range of boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to boats like the San Juan 21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a fleet race, but I can’t think of a way that you could set up fair starts for a pursuit race using time on time. Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should clarify the reason for my question, and rephrase it. Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven, NC in mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete in a longish pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on Saturday night at the dinner dance, and a second (optional) race on Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies compete in windward-leeward races on both days. The pursuit course is typically the one I described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three deep prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and Cruising. Cruising boats are white sails and not generally raced. Usually there are about 30 keelboats, with Cruising being the largest class. I plan to conduct a “CC Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo regatta. I know of about 10 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, which allows travel on Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception, compete on Saturday, and sail home on Sunday. (There are actually 5 CCs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 miles away) And another 10 or so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as a venue makes everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party, Saturday breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch, the band for the dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is free dockage available in Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year there is even street music and shore side activities on Saturday for family and kids who don’t want to race. All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the CC owners to stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think one of Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really nice prize), figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word out to CC owners. Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for asking the original question. Participants will be competing for the overall prizes in one of three classes, in a pursuit race based on PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved in regattas where the overall winner got a prize for being first in the “most competitive” class, but never thought the methods for determining “most competitive” were very equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to determine an adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score the CCs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a Time on Distance race. So let me rephrase my question: If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 CC sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage. On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much adjusted time. In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never designed for long distance races. I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it racing and I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first hand all the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work. At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet. Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat's PHRF. What I'm trying to do is plan for a CC Cup to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different style boats in the same fleet. Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our performance best by comparing us against similar CCs. I lost interest in racing when similar boats stopped competing and we had to race against a Viper 640, a Pearson Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28 all in the same fleet. Apples and oranges. I see why one design is so popular and so competitive. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md - Original Message - From: Michael Brown via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage. On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much adjusted time. In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never designed for long distance races. I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it racing and I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first hand all the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work. At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet. Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat's PHRF. What I'm trying to do is plan for a CC Cup to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the same fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a wide range of boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to boats like the San Juan 21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a fleet race, but I can’t think of a way that you could set up fair starts for a pursuit race using time on time. Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should clarify the reason for my question, and rephrase it. Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven, NC in mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete in a longish pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on Saturday night at the dinner dance, and a second (optional) race on Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies compete in windward-leeward races on both days. The pursuit course is typically the one I described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three deep prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and Cruising. Cruising boats are white sails and not generally raced. Usually there are about 30 keelboats, with Cruising being the largest class. I plan to conduct a “CC Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo regatta. I know of about 10 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, which allows travel on Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception, compete on Saturday, and sail home on Sunday. (There are actually 5 CCs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 miles away) And another 10 or so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as a venue makes everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party, Saturday breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch, the band for the dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is free dockage available in Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year there is even street music and shore side activities on Saturday for family and kids who don’t want to race. All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the CC owners to stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think one of Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really nice prize), figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word out to CC owners. Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for asking the original question. Participants will be competing for the overall prizes in one of three classes, in a pursuit race based on PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved in regattas where the overall winner got a prize for being first in the “most competitive” class, but never thought the methods for determining “most competitive” were very equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to determine an adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score the CCs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a Time on Distance race. So let me rephrase my question: If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 CC sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best performer? All suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:58 PM To: Michael Brown; CNC boat owners, cnc-list Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different style boats in the same fleet. Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our performance best by comparing us against similar CCs. I lost interest in racing when similar boats stopped competing and we had to race against a Viper 640, a Pearson Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28 all in the same fleet. Apples and oranges. I see why one design is so popular and so competitive. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md _ From: Michael Brown via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage. On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently drifting downwind the boats with a
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
As I said - pick a percentage and wait for the squawking. In our Herring Island fleet, we use the Annapolis to St. Michaels race as one of our long distance races. Depending on club entrants for that race, we can have boats in multiple PHRF classes ranging from PHRF A2 through PHRF C/D. Plus, we could have someone running in a one design class (J-30, Triton, etc.) - and we have two different course lengths, depending on class - they usually have about 15 starts. We use our 15% NS adjustment - the only problem is we cannot use our 7.5% cruising chute adjustment, because the PHRF rules don't allow that, they dump them into Spin. We have had high finishing boats come from both Spin and NS classes (cruising) and from just about every PHRF group. This past year, we didn't have any NS boats and everybody was grouped in PHRF classes which ran the long course (21 miles), so it was easy. In the past, it hasn't been, but more depends on what the wind is doing and where the currents are headed than any other single criteria. There is no perfect answer, so just choose something. For me, 15% is better than a fixed number of seconds per mile, because of the wide range of PHRF's in our fleet. And, because the course has multiple legs in different directions, the good reaching boats may come out better or not depending on wind. (A Bermuda 40 yawl with a mizzen staysail is a good reacher, as is a J-80 if the wind is right, but if the wind is skewed by 20 degrees, neither does that well). Good Luck. Gary in St. Michaels - on the 80 for this one. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
This is what we do at our club, Tiburon YC on San Francisco Bay. We take the PHRF rating and if the boat is sailing non-spinnaker we add 18 seconds per mile to the PHRF rating. We have done this for over 15 years ago and it seems to work in our mixed fleets. On Friday, March 20, 2015, Eric Baumes via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: For racing on Long Island and the Hudson River the spin and non-spin ratings are not intended to be used to combine fleets. These ratings reflect differences in a boats ability when racing in either a spin or non-spin fleet. For example if you use a spinnaker pole as a whisker pole in non-spinnaker you can get a credit. Also a boat designed with a standard blade jib is seen to be at a disadvantage when racing with out a spinnaker as they have less sail area in the jib to project to windward and may get a different non-spinnaker base rating. Eric 34/36 On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cnc-list@cnc-list.com'); wrote: Rick, This has been discussed recently for shorthanded sailing on the Chesapeake. Bottom line is there is no way to race spin and non-spin together fairly. You can come up with a differential, bu it nothing more than a SWAG Joel On Friday, March 20, 2015, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cnc-list@cnc-list.com'); wrote: OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat’s PHRF. What I’m trying to do is plan for a “CC Cup” to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, so I’m guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don’t have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass *Imzadi *CC 38 mk 2 *la Belle Aurore *CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','CnC-List@cnc-list.com'); To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Ian Matthew Siento el Viento CC 29 mk 1 San Francisco Bay Sent from my iPad using Gmail Mobile ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Rick, I am no expert, but talking with Lake Michigan PHRF folks in past as Regatta Chair at our yacht club I am certain others have given good advice: it can't be done fairly. Wind angle, speed course length etc etc all impact. It is hard enough over 12 race season to feel like phrf is fair sometimes. Stick with two fleets. Fewer hard feelings. Bill Walker Pentwater Mi Evening Star CnC 36___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Rick, you probably have seen some of my earlier postings from earlier debates. We have two small fleets around St. Michaels. Our Herring Island Sailing Fleet uses a 15% rating adjustment for non spinnaker boats, with a 7.5% adjustment if the boat has a cruising spinnaker (gennaker?) tacked to the bow - no poles allowed. It has worked pretty well over a number of years. Our Wednesday Night Fleet uses a flat 10% adjustment for non spinnaker boats - white sails only. We have been doing this for about 15 years - anything more 'fancy' creates confusion. The Charleston fleet has a sliding scale dependent on the style of boat, but when trying to explain it to the troops, all I got were rolling eyeballs. In each case, the skipper must make his/her decision before the course is posted - no 'cheating' when it is an all reaching course or some other factor. In most cases, it is because the wind is too strong, or the crew is too small. In strong wind (inexperienced skipper or crew) some racers would not participate if they couldn't get some relief for not flying a chute. However, when it is blowing and the boat would be near or at hull speed without a chute, the adjustment may be too large. One caveat - we have series races - Herring Island has three four race series - from May to the beginning of October and the Wednesday is one long series of up to 22 races all summer - and both have throw-outs. If you are trying this for a single race, you may want to come up with a sliding scale - when it is blowing hard enough to have boats get up toward hull speed without a chute, a 15% adjustment would be excessive. I have had races where I was near 6 knots in my 30-1 with a poled out genoa and competitors were fighting to keep their boats under the chutes and were only going a wee bit faster. In medium to light conditions, 15% may not make it even. Good luck - if you are only dealing with CC boats (traditional ones, not the new 30) you can probably choose something which will be equitable, when you get into a fleet like ours (CC 115 at PHRF 75 to Triton at 252...), then it is tougher. Gary Nylander 30-1 Maryland From: Rick Brass via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat's PHRF. What I'm trying to do is plan for a CC Cup to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC -- ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Hi Rick: I claim advantage since I also have a 38MKII, '77 vintage. You could check the NEPHRF.org website to see if your current handicaps are close for the boats racing.if you have boats that are not registered, you could assign a rating comparable with the list found there. However, there are always discrepancies.the known list portends to be applicable to a boat that is in racing shape in our case that means that the sails and equipment are up to snuff and the bottom is cleanI would expect that some of your participants won't match those criteria What we do in the Hingham fleet is to establish a racing and a cruising rating for each boat. Racing rating considers that the regular symmetrical spinnaker will be used on a pole. The cruising rating covers boats using Jib and main only. For our regular Wednesday night races, we don't have enough boats to race separate races in each fleet so if I want to race in the B fleet (which we won overall last year), and we don't want to use a spinnaker (which I don't have, only an ASYM) we let cruising boats race with the spinnaker boats and add 10% to the cruising ratingThat worked very well for us last year. IN our pursuit races, and we have several with over 100 boats entered, we also (by necessity) have both types of boats racing in the same raceall in one fleet. IN that case, boats that are racing Cruising get 10sec. added to their cruising rating. Again worked well for us last year. In your Pursuit race..simply assign a base handicap to each boat and then adjust it for spinnaker or not racing. Since the pursuit race starting time already takes the handicap into accountthen as usual, the first boat across the finish line wins You could also check out a web site; www.regattaman.com http://www.regattaman.com/ these guys do the race management for most of the events in New Englandfind the calendar page and check out the Great Chase Raceyou'll find NOR's, Sailing instructions, and ratings for over 100 boats from Rhodes 19's to Swan 42's and beyond... If you need more info, check with me off line and I'll send what I can. Best, Ron Casciato Impromptu CC 38MKIIC...'77 _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat's PHRF. What I'm trying to do is plan for a CC Cup to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Rick, This has been discussed recently for shorthanded sailing on the Chesapeake. Bottom line is there is no way to race spin and non-spin together fairly. You can come up with a differential, bu it nothing more than a SWAG Joel On Friday, March 20, 2015, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat’s PHRF. What I’m trying to do is plan for a “CC Cup” to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, so I’m guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don’t have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass *Imzadi *CC 38 mk 2 *la Belle Aurore *CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
Rick, In my opinion the adjustment would have to be based on the wind speed and angle too much to be do-able. A much easier solution would be to get the class to all agree to run in one class or the other...most likely JAM. Any way you do it, if I can clear the schedule, I’ll be there! James delaney CC 38 Mk2 Oriental, NC From: Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat’s PHRF. What I’m trying to do is plan for a “CC Cup” to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, so I’m guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don’t have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet
For racing on Long Island and the Hudson River the spin and non-spin ratings are not intended to be used to combine fleets. These ratings reflect differences in a boats ability when racing in either a spin or non-spin fleet. For example if you use a spinnaker pole as a whisker pole in non-spinnaker you can get a credit. Also a boat designed with a standard blade jib is seen to be at a disadvantage when racing with out a spinnaker as they have less sail area in the jib to project to windward and may get a different non-spinnaker base rating. Eric 34/36 On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rick, This has been discussed recently for shorthanded sailing on the Chesapeake. Bottom line is there is no way to race spin and non-spin together fairly. You can come up with a differential, bu it nothing more than a SWAG Joel On Friday, March 20, 2015, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet. What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a conclusion. I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the boat’s PHRF. What I’m trying to do is plan for a “CC Cup” to be run as part of a local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of May 15-17. More on that later. The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of about 15 CCs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, so I’m guessing the fleet would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don’t have to pony up too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet. So help me here: How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the results based on your experience? Rick Brass *Imzadi *CC 38 mk 2 *la Belle Aurore *CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
