Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ack, I forgot to change the email subject from the digest. Sorry! Retitling
so this mistake is not perpetuated.

-- Original mail: --
Thanks Rick. I did read your email (to this thread), and one from Apr 10
2014. I think that's it unless I missed one.

A wire conversion has only two tricky parts to it - the mast fittings, and
the spreader tips. So I'm trying to figure out more details about those.
There are a few things not clear to me about your wire rerig:
- What changes were made with your mast fittings (navtangs), if any? It
sounds like you got Navtec stemball fittings swaged onto the wire and
reused the old navtangs. Do you have K150's or K200's, and do you know if
the tie bar was inspected?
- How does the spreader tip connection need to change for wire?  The 38 Mk
2 rig might be a little different, but my upper main shroud is continuous
at the upper spreader. Does wire necessitate any changes there?  The lower
spreader tip is also a little tricky (because it has three wire
terminations in it).

I do agree nitrionic 50 rod is a marvelous engineering feat, but there are
appealing aspects to Dyform too (including that there are many more places
that can swage wire). The interesting thing is navtec's site says Dyform,
at the thickness giving comparable strength to -10 rod, has nearly the same
low stretch as rod. Dyform at 1 lbs is 0.00085 stretch while rod -10 is
0.00083. I'm going to ask a couple riggers about that.

http://www.navtecriggingsolutions.com/rigging.html

-Patrick
1984 C LF38

On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:20 PM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> From: Rick Brass <rickbr...@earthlink.net>
> To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:19:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>
> If you go back a few weeks on the list you will find a lengthy post from
> me telling about my experience replacing all the #10 rod on my 38 mk2 with
> Dyform wire.
>
>
>
> The wire has a little bit higher tensile strength than the rod. It is
> slightly – like a few thousandths – larger in diameter than the rod, so has
> a bit more windage. And the all up cost for replacement was just about what
> I was quoted for having Navtec evaluate the old rod.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> *Imzadi  *C 38 mk 2
>
> *la Belle Aurore *C 25 mk1
>
> Washington, NC
>
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Hi Patrick,


My standing rigging was replaced about 5 years ago with all wire.   This was 
done before my time, but I did replace one of the fittings which as I recall is 
a Navtec Series 500 fitting.  I believe the new rigging, including Kenyon spar 
and boom,  was done by Rig-Rite.


-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Carrabelle, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Nov 19, 2016, at 8:20 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about a wire conversion again, but that has it's own
> complications. Has anyone done that on the side shrouds? From archives I
> know Calypso did forestay/backstay, but those are easy to convert. The mast
> tangs and discontinuous lower spreader junction are the tricky part.
> 
> I found a Youtube channel where they replaced their Navtec rig with wire:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhj714rleQ 
> 
> 
> But they have a Niagara 35 with a single spreader rig rather than double,
> so that makes it a bit simpler. And the well-known rigger Brion Toss has
> said (in his forum) that for a C, he would stay with rod, because rod
> makes a difference to the responsiveness of C's.
> 
> -Patrick
> 1984 C Landfall 38
> Seattle, WA

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

y backstay hydraulic adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the
>> same time, and if the new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order
>> the new backstay to the proper size.
>>
>> I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to
>> last year said it might not save that much money converting to wire,
>> considering the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be
>> made. I could easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not
>> sure that's worth the inconsistency.
>>
>> Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that
>> went that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
>>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>>> Cc:
>>> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>>> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
>>> job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
>>> Hardware
>>> www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did
>>> new lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if
>>> you want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical,
>>> so they would go on measurements alone.
>>>
>>> Joel
>>> Former 35/3
>>> Hylas 44
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dave via CnC-List]

Patrick, for what it's worth, and this may not be much, the Lf is a more of a 
cruising biased design, and if that's the intended use and safety and 
reliability are paramount, and all else is equal, I'd convert to standard, 
stranded wire.  As to the responsiveness  attributed to every C yacht ever 
made by Brian toss, I can only assume he's thinking high performance/racing not 
cruising. 
I have a 33-2, safe to say a more  racing-oriented design than a landfall, (I 
hope so!) and it has rod rigging, but I honestly doubt I'm a good enough 
sailor, and demanding enough, and the other aspects of my rig are  optimized 
enough, that rod vs wire would matter much.
My c$.02

Dave.



Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:47:05 -0800
From: Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
Message-ID:
   <CAHixY6TxyZwE+s9jroV3wm58x0zri9L3kKtrMVSp=nzyyol...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Ok, I've found out a lot more in the last 3 weeks, but am frustratingly no
closer to making a decision. All I've learned is that Navtec parts are
really expensive and complex. And that everyone I talk to disagrees with
the previous person (ie, even professional riggers don't agree on what is
recommended + safe) - I suppose this is normal in sailing though.

I found a few more old threads from the C list:

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2011-November/041498.html
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2014-April/066294.html

A lot of it seems to come down to the Navtangs. Navtec changed the design
several times (to make improvements), and Navtec had so much employee
turnover that there's only one guy remaining who has been through all the
iterations.

My previous thinking was based on that my '84 has K150 tangs with SS tie
rods (confirmed by a rigger when we pulled one tang last year). And the
tang was easily unscrewed, which lends me hope the other 3 would also be
similar. So I assumed I could reuse my tangs, because it seems other C
owners did so, and last year's rigger said it looked reusable (based on
visual inspection).

However a more conservative rigger basically implied I would be stupid to
reuse it. Navtec recommends replacing them - but Navtec recommends
replacing anything older than 12 years old, so I don't really know what to
make of Navtec's advice (they have no incentive *not* to recommend
replacing their hardware with new hardware of their own).

A local rigger told me the navtangs are $1000 each. I have 4 of them, so
replacing them would basically double the cost of a rerig (and that's not
counting any labor cost). (I think the $1k/each is an overestimate though -
I found a price online of $500-600).

It seems like a lot of people who have rerigged haven't actually done full
rerigs - ie, they reused turnbuckles, or tangs. I do agree with the more
conservative rigger that it doesn't make sense to leave a "weak link" in
the system. But I'm not sure whether old navtangs must be automatically
condemned into the category of being a weak link.

I'm seriously thinking about a wire conversion again, but that has it's own
complications. Has anyone done that on the side shrouds? From archives I
know Calypso did forestay/backstay, but those are easy to convert. The mast
tangs and discontinuous lower spreader junction are the tricky part.

I found a Youtube channel where they replaced their Navtec rig with wire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhj714rleQ

But they have a Niagara 35 with a single spreader rig rather than double,
so that makes it a bit simpler. And the well-known rigger Brion Toss has
said (in his forum) that for a C, he would stay with rod, because rod
makes a difference to the responsiveness of C's.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA


Sent from my iPhone___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

If you go back a few weeks on the list you will find a lengthy post from me 
telling about my experience replacing all the #10 rod on my 38 mk2 with Dyform 
wire.

 

The wire has a little bit higher tensile strength than the rod. It is slightly 
– like a few thousandths – larger in diameter than the rod, so has a bit more 
windage. And the all up cost for replacement was just about what I was quoted 
for having Navtec evaluate the old rod.

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
Davin via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 5:47 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

Ok, I've found out a lot more in the last 3 weeks, but am frustratingly no 
closer to making a decision. All I've learned is that Navtec parts are really 
expensive and complex. And that everyone I talk to disagrees with the previous 
person (ie, even professional riggers don't agree on what is recommended + 
safe) - I suppose this is normal in sailing though. 

 

I found a few more old threads from the C list:

 

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2011-November/041498.html

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2014-April/066294.html

 

A lot of it seems to come down to the Navtangs. Navtec changed the design 
several times (to make improvements), and Navtec had so much employee turnover 
that there's only one guy remaining who has been through all the iterations. 

 

My previous thinking was based on that my '84 has K150 tangs with SS tie rods 
(confirmed by a rigger when we pulled one tang last year). And the tang was 
easily unscrewed, which lends me hope the other 3 would also be similar. So I 
assumed I could reuse my tangs, because it seems other C owners did so, and 
last year's rigger said it looked reusable (based on visual inspection). 

 

However a more conservative rigger basically implied I would be stupid to reuse 
it. Navtec recommends replacing them - but Navtec recommends replacing anything 
older than 12 years old, so I don't really know what to make of Navtec's advice 
(they have no incentive *not* to recommend replacing their hardware with new 
hardware of their own). 

 

A local rigger told me the navtangs are $1000 each. I have 4 of them, so 
replacing them would basically double the cost of a rerig (and that's not 
counting any labor cost). (I think the $1k/each is an overestimate though - I 
found a price online of $500-600). 

 

It seems like a lot of people who have rerigged haven't actually done full 
rerigs - ie, they reused turnbuckles, or tangs. I do agree with the more 
conservative rigger that it doesn't make sense to leave a "weak link" in the 
system. But I'm not sure whether old navtangs must be automatically condemned 
into the category of being a weak link. 

 

I'm seriously thinking about a wire conversion again, but that has it's own 
complications. Has anyone done that on the side shrouds? From archives I know 
Calypso did forestay/backstay, but those are easy to convert. The mast tangs 
and discontinuous lower spreader junction are the tricky part.  

 

I found a Youtube channel where they replaced their Navtec rig with wire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhj714rleQ

 

But they have a Niagara 35 with a single spreader rig rather than double, so 
that makes it a bit simpler. And the well-known rigger Brion Toss has said (in 
his forum) that for a C, he would stay with rod, because rod makes a 
difference to the responsiveness of C's. 

 

-Patrick

1984 C Landfall 38

Seattle, WA

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jda...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading. 
Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead 
though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate 
percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that I 
did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic adjuster 
is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the new adjuster 
is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to the proper size. 

 

I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to last 
year said it might not save that much money converting to wire, considering the 
cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be made. I could easily 
go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not sure that's worth the 
inconsistency. 

 

Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that went 
that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc. 

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Fr

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

> year said it might not save that much money converting to wire, considering 
> the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be made. I could 
> easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not sure that's worth 
> the inconsistency. 
> 
> Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that went 
> that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc. 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com <mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com>>
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>" 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: 
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY job.  
> If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and Hardware 
> www.RiggingAndHardware.com <http://www.riggingandhardware.com/>​ for great 
> service and pricing.  They did new lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The 
> rig would have to be down if you want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, 
> shipping is not practical, so they would go on measurements alone.  
> 
> Joel
> Former 35/3
> Hylas 44
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Ok, I've found out a lot more in the last 3 weeks, but am frustratingly no
closer to making a decision. All I've learned is that Navtec parts are
really expensive and complex. And that everyone I talk to disagrees with
the previous person (ie, even professional riggers don't agree on what is
recommended + safe) - I suppose this is normal in sailing though.

I found a few more old threads from the C list:

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2011-November/041498.html
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2014-April/066294.html

A lot of it seems to come down to the Navtangs. Navtec changed the design
several times (to make improvements), and Navtec had so much employee
turnover that there's only one guy remaining who has been through all the
iterations.

My previous thinking was based on that my '84 has K150 tangs with SS tie
rods (confirmed by a rigger when we pulled one tang last year). And the
tang was easily unscrewed, which lends me hope the other 3 would also be
similar. So I assumed I could reuse my tangs, because it seems other C
owners did so, and last year's rigger said it looked reusable (based on
visual inspection).

However a more conservative rigger basically implied I would be stupid to
reuse it. Navtec recommends replacing them - but Navtec recommends
replacing anything older than 12 years old, so I don't really know what to
make of Navtec's advice (they have no incentive *not* to recommend
replacing their hardware with new hardware of their own).

A local rigger told me the navtangs are $1000 each. I have 4 of them, so
replacing them would basically double the cost of a rerig (and that's not
counting any labor cost). (I think the $1k/each is an overestimate though -
I found a price online of $500-600).

It seems like a lot of people who have rerigged haven't actually done full
rerigs - ie, they reused turnbuckles, or tangs. I do agree with the more
conservative rigger that it doesn't make sense to leave a "weak link" in
the system. But I'm not sure whether old navtangs must be automatically
condemned into the category of being a weak link.

I'm seriously thinking about a wire conversion again, but that has it's own
complications. Has anyone done that on the side shrouds? From archives I
know Calypso did forestay/backstay, but those are easy to convert. The mast
tangs and discontinuous lower spreader junction are the tricky part.

I found a Youtube channel where they replaced their Navtec rig with wire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhj714rleQ

But they have a Niagara 35 with a single spreader rig rather than double,
so that makes it a bit simpler. And the well-known rigger Brion Toss has
said (in his forum) that for a C, he would stay with rod, because rod
makes a difference to the responsiveness of C's.

-Patrick
1984 C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Patrick Davin <jda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading.
> Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead
> though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate
> percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that
> I did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic
> adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the
> new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to
> the proper size.
>
> I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to
> last year said it might not save that much money converting to wire,
> considering the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be
> made. I could easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not
> sure that's worth the inconsistency.
>
> Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that
> went that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc.
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc:
>> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
>> job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
>> Hardware
>> www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new
>> lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you
>> want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so
>> they would go on measurements alone.
>>
>> Joel
>> Former 35/3
>> Hylas 44
>>
>
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Rick, did you do the rerig work yourself, or the rigger installed? Mast up,
or down?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:24 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rick Brass <rickbr...@earthlink.net>
> To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 23:12:43 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>
> Dave;
>
>
>
> Could he have been referring to Dyform wire? That is a multi-strand wire
> made of individual wires that are sort of wedge shaped in cross section, so
> the strands are packed more densely than in conventional wire. It has both
> smaller diameter and greater tensile strength than conventional wire.
>
>
>
> I had my 38 rerigged in about 2011, after one of the toggles in my rig
> broke during a race in windy and rough conditions. The  old toggles may or
> may not have been original and also may have been of a generation that was
> recalled and replaced by Navtec. But I began to doubt the integrity of my
> (then) 35 year old rod rigging.
>
>
>
> Navtec says that dye testing is not adequate on old rod, and recommended
> replacement of rod over something like 20 years old. Their suggestion was
> to remove the rod , coil it on a pallet (I think it was Dennis C who said a
> coil of 200x rod diameter) with a coil about 5’ diameter, and ship it to
> them for non-destructive testing (X-ray, I think), and they would ship it
> back. Cost would have been about $3500 plus the cost of reheading or
> replacement depending on what the Navtec testing showed.
>
>
>
> My rigger suggested Dyform wire as a high value alternative. The wire
> turns out to be about 1/16th larger in diameter than the #10 rod (so
> slightly more windage) but also has a higher tensile strength than the rod
> it replaces. Rigger swaged on ends that fit the existing tangs in the mast,
> and used Sta-Loc fittings on the lower end so the wire could be cut to the
> proper lengths.
>
>
>
> Turns out that replacing the rod headstay with wire was probably a good
> idea. Maker of my furler (Bamar) recommends not using a rod headstay. They
> say that grit & dirt that gets into the bearings in the foil can score the
> rod and create stress risers that can lead to rod failure. The recommend
> installing a wire headstay if you have one of their roller furlers.
>
>
>
> All up cost for the Dyform wire rerigging of my 38 was about $3900 – just
> $400 more than the estimate from Navtec and the rigger for the R of the
> rod, shipping & inspection. Semmed like a good idea – and a lot less costly
> that reheading/replacing the rod.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

A friend who has circumnavigated several times has rerigged his 39’ steel 
cutter with Dyneema for the shrouds.

 

Very strong, light, straightforward to splice. Definitely DIY. And having extra 
material aboard to make emergency replacements for rigging is very easy. I 
think I recall the project cost more than replacement with stainless wire and 
swaged fitting, but I can’t swear to that.

 

He found it a bit of a problem to source the proper hardware to connect the 
Dyneema to the toggles in the mast and the turnbuckles at the chain plates. But 
the hardware was available – probably more so now than 3 or 4 years ago.

 

Since the install he has spent a winter in the islands and made a trip up the 
East Coast, across the Atlantic to Portugal, into the Med, and back across the 
Atlantic. He told me he has had to adjust the rig tension periodically, 
apparently because the Dyneema is slippery and the splices tend to creep under 
load when subjected to cyclic loading from waves. 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Tom 
Buscaglia via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 1:02 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Tom Buscaglia <t...@sv-alera.com>
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

Any thoughts on going to Dyneema for standing rigging?

 

http://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/12/29/the-best-material-for-synthetic-standing-rigging

Tom Buscaglia

S/V Alera 

1990 C 37+/40

Vashon WA

P 206.463.9200

C 305.409.3660

 


On Nov 4, 2016, at 6:24 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com>  wrote:

From: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com <mailto:dave.god...@me.com> >
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
Message-ID: <045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com 
<mailto:045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Rick,

Thanks for the info. As far as those tang (toggles?) fittings that were used on 
our rigs, it was explained to me that they were a cause of rig failures. The 
caps were designed to move in tandem with the rod but given that they were a 
combination of stainless steel and aluminum they quickly seized up and cause 
the neck of the rod to be nicked and weakened. Hence the newer K200 style of 
tang which I converted to. Like John Sandford, I had to break all of the 
original K100 tangs to get them out of the mast. 

Interestingly, I was thinking Dyform when the rigger started to discuss 
replacements but he specifically said that it was not Dyform (which he called 
old technology?) so that?s why I?m at a loss to understand what the type of 
standing rigging it is. I?ll find out in a week or two when we get together to 
go over my rig.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin?s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>



On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:12 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Tom,

Back from taping and masking the deck. No-one told my how much time this will 
take. Yeesh.

What Chuck said. I did some fun what-ifs on non-steel standing rigging and 
pretty much came to the same conclusion. Not really appropriate for a 34-year 
old cruiser.

I am going to be replacing all my lifelines, after replacing all the old 
stanchions, (Oy!) with New England Ropes STS-WR2 Dyneema. 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiiIwHSOmZ8=PLvD5qlROxJu3r8aIu4JitzFHsqu1pxDAO=13>
  At the same time I’m having the rigger fabricate a new baby-stay tie-down out 
of the same material. The original Navtec rod rigging section that attached the 
baby-stay track to the stringer in the forward cabin gave up the ghost long ago.

Still leaning towards replacing all the existing standing rigging with newer 
Navtec rod.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
> On Nov 4, 2016, at 1:56 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> Seeing as how synthetic rope lifelines got banned due to being sawed apart by 
> chafe, I think I would stick with stainless steel. YMMV.
> Joe
> Coquina
>  
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck 
> Gilchrest via CnC-List
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 1:53 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Chuck Gilchrest <csgilchr...@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>  
> Tom,
> As a person in the rope business, the information included in the attached 
> article is spot on, but he neglects to include the most commonly used fiber 
> for standing rigging: PBO aka Zylon.   Zylon has virtually no creep and is 
> extremely strong and light.  However,  Inherent in PBO rigging is very poor 
> UV resistance and the cost of the material itself along with the highly 
> specialized terminals used in affixing the stays and shrouds to the spars and 
> boat can drive the price into the tens of thousands.  As such, PBO rigging is 
> often seen with a vinyl coating that runs the length of the shroud to prevent 
> UV degradation.  Also, the servicing intervals for retiring PBO and Dyneema 
> standing rigging is far more frequent than equivalent steel wire or rod.  
> Even so, look at any high performance Grand Prix boat where every ounce 
> counts(Vendee Globe, America’s Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, Sydney Hobart, etc.) 
> and the top of the fleet will all be using PBO standing rigging.
>  
> You will find Dyneema, mostly heat set like Dynex Dux being used as standing 
> rigging in lightweight performance catamarans, but often these boat will have 
> masts that are frequently un-stepped for transportation and trailering.  
> Lightweight is a factor as well.   Rather than using heavy stainless 
> turnbuckles, tension is achieved with lightweight deadeyes and lashings.  All 
> this translates to great advantages for high performance race machines, but 
> dubious value to heavy displacement cruiser/racers.  Just like most 
> materials, there’s always trade offs that one must make in technologies.  
> Between managing the creep and tensioning of the shrouds along with devising 
> proper terminations that can be used on existing chainplates, I’m sure there 
> are riggers that will gladly accept your boat dollars to figure it all out.   
> For sure, I would avoid using any synthetic standing rigging on any headstay 
> that would be encapsulated or attached to a jib furler with a foil.
> Chuck Gilchrest
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 35 Landfall
> Padanaram, MA
>  
>  
>   <>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of Tom Buscaglia via 
> CnC-List
> Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 1:02 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Tom Buscaglia <t...@sv-alera.com <mailto:t...@sv-alera.com>>
> Subject: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>  
> Any thoughts on going to Dyneema for standing rigging?
>  
> http://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/12/29/the-best-material-for-synthetic-standing-rigging
>  
> <http://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/12/29/the-best-material-for-synthetic-standing-rigging>
> Tom Buscaglia
> S/V Alera 
> 1990 C 37+/40
> Vashon WA
> P 206.463.9200
> C 305.409.3660
>  
> 
> On Nov 4, 2016, at 6:24 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com <mailto:dave.god...@me.com>>
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
> Message-ID: <045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Seeing as how synthetic rope lifelines got banned due to being sawed apart by 
chafe, I think I would stick with stainless steel. YMMV.
Joe
Coquina


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck 
Gilchrest via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 1:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Chuck Gilchrest <csgilchr...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

Tom,
As a person in the rope business, the information included in the attached 
article is spot on, but he neglects to include the most commonly used fiber for 
standing rigging: PBO aka Zylon.   Zylon has virtually no creep and is 
extremely strong and light.  However,  Inherent in PBO rigging is very poor UV 
resistance and the cost of the material itself along with the highly 
specialized terminals used in affixing the stays and shrouds to the spars and 
boat can drive the price into the tens of thousands.  As such, PBO rigging is 
often seen with a vinyl coating that runs the length of the shroud to prevent 
UV degradation.  Also, the servicing intervals for retiring PBO and Dyneema 
standing rigging is far more frequent than equivalent steel wire or rod.  Even 
so, look at any high performance Grand Prix boat where every ounce 
counts(Vendee Globe, America’s Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, Sydney Hobart, etc.) and 
the top of the fleet will all be using PBO standing rigging.

You will find Dyneema, mostly heat set like Dynex Dux being used as standing 
rigging in lightweight performance catamarans, but often these boat will have 
masts that are frequently un-stepped for transportation and trailering.  
Lightweight is a factor as well.   Rather than using heavy stainless 
turnbuckles, tension is achieved with lightweight deadeyes and lashings.  All 
this translates to great advantages for high performance race machines, but 
dubious value to heavy displacement cruiser/racers.  Just like most materials, 
there’s always trade offs that one must make in technologies.  Between managing 
the creep and tensioning of the shrouds along with devising proper terminations 
that can be used on existing chainplates, I’m sure there are riggers that will 
gladly accept your boat dollars to figure it all out.   For sure, I would avoid 
using any synthetic standing rigging on any headstay that would be encapsulated 
or attached to a jib furler with a foil.
Chuck Gilchrest
S/V Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall
Padanaram, MA



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Tom 
Buscaglia via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 1:02 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Tom Buscaglia <t...@sv-alera.com<mailto:t...@sv-alera.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

Any thoughts on going to Dyneema for standing rigging?

http://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/12/29/the-best-material-for-synthetic-standing-rigging
Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200
C 305.409.3660


On Nov 4, 2016, at 6:24 AM, 
cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
From: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com<mailto:dave.god...@me.com>>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
Message-ID: 
<045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com<mailto:045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Rick,

Thanks for the info. As far as those tang (toggles?) fittings that were used on 
our rigs, it was explained to me that they were a cause of rig failures. The 
caps were designed to move in tandem with the rod but given that they were a 
combination of stainless steel and aluminum they quickly seized up and cause 
the neck of the rod to be nicked and weakened. Hence the newer K200 style of 
tang which I converted to. Like John Sandford, I had to break all of the 
original K100 tangs to get them out of the mast.

Interestingly, I was thinking Dyform when the rigger started to discuss 
replacements but he specifically said that it was not Dyform (which he called 
old technology?) so that?s why I?m at a loss to understand what the type of 
standing rigging it is. I?ll find out in a week or two when we get together to 
go over my rig.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin?s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:12 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Tom,

As a person in the rope business, the information included in the attached 
article is spot on, but he neglects to include the most commonly used fiber for 
standing rigging: PBO aka Zylon.   Zylon has virtually no creep and is 
extremely strong and light.  However,  Inherent in PBO rigging is very poor UV 
resistance and the cost of the material itself along with the highly 
specialized terminals used in affixing the stays and shrouds to the spars and 
boat can drive the price into the tens of thousands.  As such, PBO rigging is 
often seen with a vinyl coating that runs the length of the shroud to prevent 
UV degradation.  Also, the servicing intervals for retiring PBO and Dyneema 
standing rigging is far more frequent than equivalent steel wire or rod.  Even 
so, look at any high performance Grand Prix boat where every ounce 
counts(Vendee Globe, America’s Cup, Volvo Ocean Race, Sydney Hobart, etc.) and 
the top of the fleet will all be using PBO standing rigging.

 

You will find Dyneema, mostly heat set like Dynex Dux being used as standing 
rigging in lightweight performance catamarans, but often these boat will have 
masts that are frequently un-stepped for transportation and trailering.  
Lightweight is a factor as well.   Rather than using heavy stainless 
turnbuckles, tension is achieved with lightweight deadeyes and lashings.  All 
this translates to great advantages for high performance race machines, but 
dubious value to heavy displacement cruiser/racers.  Just like most materials, 
there’s always trade offs that one must make in technologies.  Between managing 
the creep and tensioning of the shrouds along with devising proper terminations 
that can be used on existing chainplates, I’m sure there are riggers that will 
gladly accept your boat dollars to figure it all out.   For sure, I would avoid 
using any synthetic standing rigging on any headstay that would be encapsulated 
or attached to a jib furler with a foil.

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 35 Landfall

Padanaram, MA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Tom 
Buscaglia via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 1:02 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Tom Buscaglia <t...@sv-alera.com>
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

Any thoughts on going to Dyneema for standing rigging?

 

http://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/12/29/the-best-material-for-synthetic-standing-rigging

Tom Buscaglia

S/V Alera 

1990 C 37+/40

Vashon WA

P 206.463.9200

C 305.409.3660

 


On Nov 4, 2016, at 6:24 AM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com>  wrote:

From: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com <mailto:dave.god...@me.com> >
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
Message-ID: <045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com 
<mailto:045b0bfd-04e2-4bf8-83f0-cb40b4e78...@me.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Rick,

Thanks for the info. As far as those tang (toggles?) fittings that were used on 
our rigs, it was explained to me that they were a cause of rig failures. The 
caps were designed to move in tandem with the rod but given that they were a 
combination of stainless steel and aluminum they quickly seized up and cause 
the neck of the rod to be nicked and weakened. Hence the newer K200 style of 
tang which I converted to. Like John Sandford, I had to break all of the 
original K100 tangs to get them out of the mast. 

Interestingly, I was thinking Dyform when the rigger started to discuss 
replacements but he specifically said that it was not Dyform (which he called 
old technology?) so that?s why I?m at a loss to understand what the type of 
standing rigging it is. I?ll find out in a week or two when we get together to 
go over my rig.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin?s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>



On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:12 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Rick,

Thanks for the info. As far as those tang (toggles?) fittings that were used on 
our rigs, it was explained to me that they were a cause of rig failures. The 
caps were designed to move in tandem with the rod but given that they were a 
combination of stainless steel and aluminum they quickly seized up and cause 
the neck of the rod to be nicked and weakened. Hence the newer K200 style of 
tang which I converted to. Like John Sandford, I had to break all of the 
original K100 tangs to get them out of the mast. 

Interestingly, I was thinking Dyform when the rigger started to discuss 
replacements but he specifically said that it was not Dyform (which he called 
old technology…) so that’s why I’m at a loss to understand what the type of 
standing rigging it is. I’ll find out in a week or two when we get together to 
go over my rig.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
> On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:12 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Dave;
>  
> Could he have been referring to Dyform wire? That is a multi-strand wire made 
> of individual wires that are sort of wedge shaped in cross section, so the 
> strands are packed more densely than in conventional wire. It has both 
> smaller diameter and greater tensile strength than conventional wire.
>  
> I had my 38 rerigged in about 2011, after one of the toggles in my rig broke 
> during a race in windy and rough conditions. The  old toggles may or may not 
> have been original and also may have been of a generation that was recalled 
> and replaced by Navtec. But I began to doubt the integrity of my (then) 35 
> year old rod rigging.
>  
> Navtec says that dye testing is not adequate on old rod, and recommended 
> replacement of rod over something like 20 years old. Their suggestion was to 
> remove the rod , coil it on a pallet (I think it was Dennis C who said a coil 
> of 200x rod diameter) with a coil about 5’ diameter, and ship it to them for 
> non-destructive testing (X-ray, I think), and they would ship it back. Cost 
> would have been about $3500 plus the cost of reheading or replacement 
> depending on what the Navtec testing showed.
>  
> My rigger suggested Dyform wire as a high value alternative. The wire turns 
> out to be about 1/16th larger in diameter than the #10 rod (so slightly more 
> windage) but also has a higher tensile strength than the rod it replaces. 
> Rigger swaged on ends that fit the existing tangs in the mast, and used 
> Sta-Loc fittings on the lower end so the wire could be cut to the proper 
> lengths. 
>  
> Turns out that replacing the rod headstay with wire was probably a good idea. 
> Maker of my furler (Bamar) recommends not using a rod headstay. They say that 
> grit & dirt that gets into the bearings in the foil can score the rod and 
> create stress risers that can lead to rod failure. The recommend installing a 
> wire headstay if you have one of their roller furlers.
>  
> All up cost for the Dyform wire rerigging of my 38 was about $3900 – just 
> $400 more than the estimate from Navtec and the rigger for the R of the 
> rod, shipping & inspection. Semmed like a good idea – and a lot less costly 
> that reheading/replacing the rod.
>  
> Rick Brass
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of Dave Godwin via CnC-List
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 12:43 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com <mailto:dave.god...@me.com>>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
>  
> He mentioned some sort of new small diameter rod/wire standing rigging as a 
> replacement but I failed to catch the name. Unless he can really convince me 
> that it is better, I’m inclined to replace all the rod. The boat and rig were 
> designed for rod. And I’ve already put money into new tangs. One thing that I 
> did do back in 1999 was replace the forestay with wire due to a nick in the 
> rod and adding a roller furling setup.
>  
>  
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray <https://www.paypal.me/stumurray>
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Dave;

 

Could he have been referring to Dyform wire? That is a multi-strand wire made 
of individual wires that are sort of wedge shaped in cross section, so the 
strands are packed more densely than in conventional wire. It has both smaller 
diameter and greater tensile strength than conventional wire.

 

I had my 38 rerigged in about 2011, after one of the toggles in my rig broke 
during a race in windy and rough conditions. The  old toggles may or may not 
have been original and also may have been of a generation that was recalled and 
replaced by Navtec. But I began to doubt the integrity of my (then) 35 year old 
rod rigging.

 

Navtec says that dye testing is not adequate on old rod, and recommended 
replacement of rod over something like 20 years old. Their suggestion was to 
remove the rod , coil it on a pallet (I think it was Dennis C who said a coil 
of 200x rod diameter) with a coil about 5’ diameter, and ship it to them for 
non-destructive testing (X-ray, I think), and they would ship it back. Cost 
would have been about $3500 plus the cost of reheading or replacement depending 
on what the Navtec testing showed.

 

My rigger suggested Dyform wire as a high value alternative. The wire turns out 
to be about 1/16th larger in diameter than the #10 rod (so slightly more 
windage) but also has a higher tensile strength than the rod it replaces. 
Rigger swaged on ends that fit the existing tangs in the mast, and used Sta-Loc 
fittings on the lower end so the wire could be cut to the proper lengths. 

 

Turns out that replacing the rod headstay with wire was probably a good idea. 
Maker of my furler (Bamar) recommends not using a rod headstay. They say that 
grit & dirt that gets into the bearings in the foil can score the rod and 
create stress risers that can lead to rod failure. The recommend installing a 
wire headstay if you have one of their roller furlers.

 

All up cost for the Dyform wire rerigging of my 38 was about $3900 – just $400 
more than the estimate from Navtec and the rigger for the R of the rod, 
shipping & inspection. Semmed like a good idea – and a lot less costly that 
reheading/replacing the rod.

 

Rick Brass

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave Godwin 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 12:43 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave Godwin <dave.god...@me.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

He mentioned some sort of new small diameter rod/wire standing rigging as a 
replacement but I failed to catch the name. Unless he can really convince me 
that it is better, I’m inclined to replace all the rod. The boat and rig were 
designed for rod. And I’ve already put money into new tangs. One thing that I 
did do back in 1999 was replace the forestay with wire due to a nick in the rod 
and adding a roller furling setup.

 

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[John Sandford via CnC-List]

Just coil it up, about 5' dia. Then wrap the coiled wire with a roll of
foam,  the type that goes between the basement wall and the house.

You end up with a blue, or pink, hula hoop.

I shipped my up,  and South Shore shipped it  back like that.

Don't need any wood backing.

 

From: Bill Bina - gmail [mailto:billbinal...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 12:25 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

Important note gleaned from personal experience. UPS will not accept any
packaging with a wood surface. That means that if you roll up your rigging,
you cannot pack it between two sheets of luan plywood. Has to be cardboard,
or else go by LTL motor freight, which may have it's own rules. 

Bill Bina

 

On 11/3/2016 11:14 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote:

Shipping the rod may not be practical but it is possible if necessary. 

 

Rod can be 'rolled' into a circle whose diameter depends on the rod
diameter--IIRC for my 36 XL, I think the yard rolled it into about a 6'
diameter circle before it was securely tied up and shipped via UPS or FedEx
to Florida to have one of my stays re-headed. 

 

This is likely not a one-person job however!

 

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

C 36 XL/kcb

cenel...@aol.com

 

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[John Sandford via CnC-List]

I did a complete job on mine last winter.

With mast out.

Removed all the rod and shipped it to South Shore yacht in Ontario.

They inspected everything and replaced backstay, uppers, all turnbuckle males, 
and all tangs.

Reheaded the rest.

My tangs were SS with an aluminium threaded joining part, and could not be 
removed even with heat.

As recommended, I used 2 x 36” pipe wrenches and snapped the aluminium parts. 
The new tangs have SS threaded part. 

Coiled everything into 5’ dia, and shipped with fedex. No problem.

I had just bought the boat in March 2015, with unknown rigging, so I consider 
this work to be a good investment, and peace of mind, which you cant put a 
price on.

John

LF38 #234

St Margarets Bay NS

 

 

From: cenel...@aol.com [mailto:cenel...@aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 12:15 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

 

Shipping the rod may not be practical but it is possible if necessary. 

 

Rod can be 'rolled' into a circle whose diameter depends on the rod 
diameter--IIRC for my 36 XL, I think the yard rolled it into about a 6' 
diameter circle before it was securely tied up and shipped via UPS or FedEx to 
Florida to have one of my stays re-headed. 

 

This is likely not a one-person job however!

 

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

C 36 XL/kcb

cenel...@aol.com

 

-Original Message-
From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 3, 2016 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY job.  
If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and Hardware  

www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new 
lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you want 
to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so they 
would go on measurements alone.  

 

Joel

Former 35/3

Hylas 44

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Larry via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:

Patrick

I am in the same boat (lol) and understand that in the upcoming couple of years 
I will be faced with the problem.

I purchased my boat 2 years ago and the survey gave the standard evaluation 
when buy a boat. So I hired rigger to give me his honest opinion.

I was told everything was top of the line and in great shape, but it was 28 
years old. 

I have been budgeting for it and researching.

This are the websites I found that were helpful.

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1189-replacing-standing-rigging.html

http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/a-diy-solution-to-tired-standing-rigging/

I have solid rigging and not sure if I want to continue with solid or not.

I would be interested in reading others advice on CnC 38-ft solid rigging 
replacement.

Larry

38-ft Mk III

Freeland, WA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
Davin via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 7:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Patrick Davin
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on rerigging an LF38

 

I'm considering doing a rerig this winter. There are no obvious problems, but 
it's getting on 33 years now and would be nice for the peace of mind. Does 
anyone know of any blogs / websites / emails that do sort of a step by step 
guide to do-it-yourself rerigging? 

 

I'd like to do it myself to save on labor costs, but work with a local rigger 
hopefully to help with ordering the parts. I have one in mind who did my rig 
inspection plus replaced the D2s last year. 

 

The D2s (diagonals from lower spreader to mast near upper spreaders) are 
already new rod as of last year, due to some small cracks found at the upper 
rod ends of the old rod. 

 

I have the original rig schematics diagram. However Navtec no longer makes some 
of these parts. I understand the spreader 3-way join and the mast tangs are the 
tricky part. 

 

I searched the list archives but didn't find much on rerigs. I know Wally did a 
rerig but he didn't cover the details of it. I've seen some riggers say rerig 
requires unstepping the mast, but I'm not sure why they say this. If I can do 
this without pulling the mast that will save a lot of work and expense. 

 

Releasing the side shrouds at the upper terminations (stemballs) requires 
lifting the rod to near parallel to the ground and then unscrewing the navtang. 
When we did the D2s, this was easy. The caps unscrewed without any special 
efforts like heating. The uppers could be more difficult because they're longer 
(and perhaps hard to lift parallel to earth). 

 

If anyone knows of a good guide (ideally specific to C's) to this, I'd love 
to read it. 

 

-Patrick

1984 C LF38

Seattle, WA

 

 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of 

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Patrick,

Timely. I just got a phone message from a rigger that I contacted about 
updating my mast, standing and running rigging. I have rod rigging which was 
reheaded in 1999. At that time I converted from the Navtec K100 (Frankenstein…) 
tang fittings to newer K200 tangs.

The rigger mentioned several things that I was aware of, one that I just wanted 
to ignore, to wit, the rod is 34-years old. Well past the due date per Navtec. 
The other, which I knew was that after rereading the rod, that was the limit. 
One and done.

He mentioned some sort of new small diameter rod/wire standing rigging as a 
replacement but I failed to catch the name. Unless he can really convince me 
that it is better, I’m inclined to replace all the rod. The boat and rig were 
designed for rod. And I’ve already put money into new tangs. One thing that I 
did do back in 1999 was replace the forestay with wire due to a nick in the rod 
and adding a roller furling setup.

The rigger is busy at the moment but we’ll be meeting in the yard sometime in 
the next week or so to go over my rebuild list and look at the rig. Right off 
the bat I know he’ll recommend/do a Level C inspection. I’ll post what I learn 
on my blog afterwards.

FWIW, my rig is on the ground. Right next to my keel.  ;-)

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
> On Nov 3, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading. 
> Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead 
> though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate 
> percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that I 
> did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic 
> adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the 
> new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to the 
> proper size. 
> 
> I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to last 
> year said it might not save that much money converting to wire, considering 
> the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be made. I could 
> easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not sure that's worth 
> the inconsistency. 
> 
> Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that went 
> that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc. 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com <mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com>>
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>" 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: 
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY job.  
> If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and Hardware 
> www.RiggingAndHardware.com <http://www.riggingandhardware.com/>​ for great 
> service and pricing.  They did new lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The 
> rig would have to be down if you want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, 
> shipping is not practical, so they would go on measurements alone.  
> 
> Joel
> Former 35/3
> Hylas 44
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Right, I totally get the mast would need to be pulled if I were reheading.
Doing it one side at a time would take too long. I'm not planning to rehead
though. From what I've heard it seems like reheading only saves a moderate
percentage of money, and getting new rod gives me extra piece of mind that
I did the full job, plus simplifies some things - my backstay hydraulic
adjuster is also dead, so I will replace that at the same time, and if the
new adjuster is a different length, I'll simply order the new backstay to
the proper size.

I also considered going wire instead of rod, but the rigger I talked to
last year said it might not save that much money converting to wire,
considering the cost of mast tangs or other changes that would need to be
made. I could easily go wire on just the forestay and backstay. But not
sure that's worth the inconsistency.

Mostly I'm interested in the logistics of doing it DIY - for others that
went that route, what went wrong, what was easy, what was hard, etc.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:15 AM, <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:01:48 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38
> If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
> job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
> Hardware
> www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new
> lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you
> want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so
> they would go on measurements alone.
>
> Joel
> Former 35/3
> Hylas 44
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List]

Important note gleaned from personal experience. UPS will not accept any 
packaging with a wood surface. That means that if you roll up your 
rigging, you cannot pack it between two sheets of luan plywood. Has to 
be cardboard, or else go by LTL motor freight, which may have it's own 
rules.


Bill Bina


On 11/3/2016 11:14 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List wrote:

Shipping the rod may not be practical but it is possible if necessary.

Rod can be 'rolled' into a circle whose diameter depends on the rod 
diameter--IIRC for my 36 XL, I think the yard rolled it into about a 
6' diameter circle before it was securely tied up and shipped via UPS 
or FedEx to Florida to have one of my stays re-headed.


This is likely not a one-person job however!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb

cenel...@aol.com



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Shipping the rod may not be practical but it is possible if necessary.


Rod can be 'rolled' into a circle whose diameter depends on the rod 
diameter--IIRC for my 36 XL, I think the yard rolled it into about a 6' 
diameter circle before it was securely tied up and shipped via UPS or FedEx to 
Florida to have one of my stays re-headed.


This is likely not a one-person job however!


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb


cenel...@aol.com




-Original Message-
From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 3, 2016 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38



If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY job.  
If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and Hardware 
www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new 
lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you want 
to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so they 
would go on measurements alone.  


Joel
Former 35/3
Hylas 44



On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Larry via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:


Patrick
I am in the same boat (lol) and understand that in the upcoming couple of years 
I will be faced with the problem.
I purchased my boat 2 years ago and the survey gave the standard evaluation 
when buy a boat. So I hired rigger to give me his honest opinion.
I was told everything was top of the line and in great shape, but it was 28 
years old. 
I have been budgeting for it and researching.
This are the websites I found that were helpful.
http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1189-replacing-standing-rigging.html
http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/a-diy-solution-to-tired-standing-rigging/
I have solid rigging and not sure if I want to continue with solid or not.
I would be interested in reading others advice on CnC 38-ft solid rigging 
replacement.
Larry
38-ft Mk III
Freeland, WA
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
Davin via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 7:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Patrick Davin
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on rerigging an LF38

 

I'm considering doing a rerig this winter. There are no obvious problems, but 
it's getting on 33 years now and would be nice for the peace of mind. Does 
anyone know of any blogs / websites / emails that do sort of a step by step 
guide to do-it-yourself rerigging? 

 

I'd like to do it myself to save on labor costs, but work with a local rigger 
hopefully to help with ordering the parts. I have one in mind who did my rig 
inspection plus replaced the D2s last year. 

 

The D2s (diagonals from lower spreader to mast near upper spreaders) are 
already new rod as of last year, due to some small cracks found at the upper 
rod ends of the old rod. 

 

I have the original rig schematics diagram. However Navtec no longer makes some 
of these parts. I understand the spreader 3-way join and the mast tangs are the 
tricky part. 

 

I searched the list archives but didn't find much on rerigs. I know Wally did a 
rerig but he didn't cover the details of it. I've seen some riggers say rerig 
requires unstepping the mast, but I'm not sure why they say this. If I can do 
this without pulling the mast that will save a lot of work and expense. 

 

Releasing the side shrouds at the upper terminations (stemballs) requires 
lifting the rod to near parallel to the ground and then unscrewing the navtang. 
When we did the D2s, this was easy. The caps unscrewed without any special 
efforts like heating. The uppers could be more difficult because they're longer 
(and perhaps hard to lift parallel to earth). 

 

If anyone knows of a good guide (ideally specific to C's) to this, I'd love 
to read it. 

 

-Patrick

1984 C LF38

Seattle, WA

 

 




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!







-- 

Joel 
301 541 8551


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

If you have rod rigging, the rod needs to be reheaded.  It is not a DIY
job.  If you want to replace wire, I highly recommend Rigging and and
Hardware
www.RiggingAndHardware.com​ for great service and pricing.  They did new
lifelines for my 44 for about $620.  The rig would have to be down if you
want to send them the old wire.  If its rod, shipping is not practical, so
they would go on measurements alone.

Joel
Former 35/3
Hylas 44

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Larry via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Patrick
>
> I am in the same boat (lol) and understand that in the upcoming couple of
> years I will be faced with the problem.
>
> I purchased my boat 2 years ago and the survey gave the standard
> evaluation when buy a boat. So I hired rigger to give me his honest opinion.
>
> I was told everything was top of the line and in great shape, but it was
> 28 years old.
>
> I have been budgeting for it and researching.
>
> This are the websites I found that were helpful.
>
> http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1189-replacing-standing-rigging.html
>
> http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/a-diy-solution-to-tired-standing-rigging/
>
> I have solid rigging and not sure if I want to continue with solid or not.
>
> I would be interested in reading others advice on CnC 38-ft solid rigging
> replacement.
>
> Larry
>
> 38-ft Mk III
>
> Freeland, WA
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
> Davin via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2016 7:20 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Patrick Davin
> *Subject:* Stus-List Pointers on rerigging an LF38
>
>
>
> I'm considering doing a rerig this winter. There are no obvious problems,
> but it's getting on 33 years now and would be nice for the peace of mind.
> Does anyone know of any blogs / websites / emails that do sort of a step by
> step guide to do-it-yourself rerigging?
>
>
>
> I'd like to do it myself to save on labor costs, but work with a local
> rigger hopefully to help with ordering the parts. I have one in mind who
> did my rig inspection plus replaced the D2s last year.
>
>
>
> The D2s (diagonals from lower spreader to mast near upper spreaders) are
> already new rod as of last year, due to some small cracks found at the
> upper rod ends of the old rod.
>
>
>
> I have the original rig schematics diagram. However Navtec no longer makes
> some of these parts. I understand the spreader 3-way join and the mast
> tangs are the tricky part.
>
>
>
> I searched the list archives but didn't find much on rerigs. I know Wally
> did a rerig but he didn't cover the details of it. I've seen some riggers
> say rerig requires unstepping the mast, but I'm not sure why they say this.
> If I can do this without pulling the mast that will save a lot of work and
> expense.
>
>
>
> Releasing the side shrouds at the upper terminations (stemballs) requires
> lifting the rod to near parallel to the ground and then unscrewing the
> navtang. When we did the D2s, this was easy. The caps unscrewed without any
> special efforts like heating. The uppers could be more difficult because
> they're longer (and perhaps hard to lift parallel to earth).
>
>
>
> If anyone knows of a good guide (ideally specific to C's) to this, I'd
> love to read it.
>
>
>
> -Patrick
>
> 1984 C LF38
>
> Seattle, WA
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Pointers on re rigging an LF38

[Larry via CnC-List]

Patrick

I am in the same boat (lol) and understand that in the upcoming couple of years 
I will be faced with the problem.

I purchased my boat 2 years ago and the survey gave the standard evaluation 
when buy a boat. So I hired rigger to give me his honest opinion.

I was told everything was top of the line and in great shape, but it was 28 
years old. 

I have been budgeting for it and researching.

This are the websites I found that were helpful.

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1189-replacing-standing-rigging.html

http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/a-diy-solution-to-tired-standing-rigging/

I have solid rigging and not sure if I want to continue with solid or not.

I would be interested in reading others advice on CnC 38-ft solid rigging 
replacement.

Larry

38-ft Mk III

Freeland, WA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
Davin via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 7:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Patrick Davin
Subject: Stus-List Pointers on rerigging an LF38

 

I'm considering doing a rerig this winter. There are no obvious problems, but 
it's getting on 33 years now and would be nice for the peace of mind. Does 
anyone know of any blogs / websites / emails that do sort of a step by step 
guide to do-it-yourself rerigging? 

 

I'd like to do it myself to save on labor costs, but work with a local rigger 
hopefully to help with ordering the parts. I have one in mind who did my rig 
inspection plus replaced the D2s last year. 

 

The D2s (diagonals from lower spreader to mast near upper spreaders) are 
already new rod as of last year, due to some small cracks found at the upper 
rod ends of the old rod. 

 

I have the original rig schematics diagram. However Navtec no longer makes some 
of these parts. I understand the spreader 3-way join and the mast tangs are the 
tricky part. 

 

I searched the list archives but didn't find much on rerigs. I know Wally did a 
rerig but he didn't cover the details of it. I've seen some riggers say rerig 
requires unstepping the mast, but I'm not sure why they say this. If I can do 
this without pulling the mast that will save a lot of work and expense. 

 

Releasing the side shrouds at the upper terminations (stemballs) requires 
lifting the rod to near parallel to the ground and then unscrewing the navtang. 
When we did the D2s, this was easy. The caps unscrewed without any special 
efforts like heating. The uppers could be more difficult because they're longer 
(and perhaps hard to lift parallel to earth). 

 

If anyone knows of a good guide (ideally specific to C's) to this, I'd love 
to read it. 

 

-Patrick

1984 C LF38

Seattle, WA

 

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!