Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Michael: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? I have had one on my boat for 11 years now with never a flat battery and no overcharging problems. Ditto all the boats I have installed them on. Rich On May 7, 2014, at 12:11, Michael Brown via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: There is no single charging profile that works when you are trying to charge a barely discharged smaller starting battery and a large fully discharged house battery in parallel. Workaround - see solutions below. Note that a Voltage Sensitive Relay or Echo Charger can help a bit but is not a solution. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
If I read you right, I'm not sure this is a true statement as the EC has little work to do replenishing a starting battery and settles out at a voltage well below any that might be problematic for any type of battery. Rich On May 8, 2014, at 11:44, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: If one battery is a gel the other one has to be as well. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. I worried for a few years when I watched a fully charged starting battery getting 14-plus volts while the house bank was still in acceptance mode. However, the fully starting battery wasn't accepting any amps, so it doesn't seem to matter. I've never had a problem with it. Wal you wrote: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
I’m in the same situation as Rich — flawless operation over several years, and no issues. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 8, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Michael: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? I have had one on my boat for 11 years now with never a flat battery and no overcharging problems. Ditto all the boats I have installed them on. Rich ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Is. Not the EC a voltage regulator? Rich On May 8, 2014, at 13:00, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. I worried for a few years when I watched a fully charged starting battery getting 14-plus volts while the house bank was still in acceptance mode. However, the fully starting battery wasn't accepting any amps, so it doesn't seem to matter. I've never had a problem with it. Wal you wrote: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Not exactly. It has an upper limit and a low voltage disconnect, but it does not regulate between these too. See http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html for details. Joe Della Barba Coquina -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 1:12 PM To: w...@wbryant.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries Is. Not the EC a voltage regulator? Rich On May 8, 2014, at 13:00, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. I worried for a few years when I watched a fully charged starting battery getting 14-plus volts while the house bank was still in acceptance mode. However, the fully starting battery wasn't accepting any amps, so it doesn't seem to matter. I've never had a problem with it. Wal you wrote: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
That's the sail net item I'm not sure about. I'm going to do some tests just to satisfy my curiosity. Anyway, they do an excellent job of whatever they do:) Rich On May 8, 2014, at 14:38, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Not exactly. It has an upper limit and a low voltage disconnect, but it does not regulate between these too. See http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html for details. Joe Della Barba Coquina -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 1:12 PM To: w...@wbryant.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries Is. Not the EC a voltage regulator? Rich On May 8, 2014, at 13:00, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. I worried for a few years when I watched a fully charged starting battery getting 14-plus volts while the house bank was still in acceptance mode. However, the fully starting battery wasn't accepting any amps, so it doesn't seem to matter. I've never had a problem with it. Wal you wrote: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Hopefully wasn't being too concise. I am technical by nature and by profession ( Electrical Engineer ) so do tend to cover more detail than necessary sometimes. The overview of the post was for someone with an older CC, original wiring and alternator considering a newer AGM large house bank. It was to point out that the design has some significant challenges if part of the upgrade was to have optimal bulk charging. The section that you refer to was in the context of optimal bulk charging, which is usually done in three stages. Given a barely discharged smaller starting battery and a moderate or fully discharged larger house bank the optimal charging profiles are very different. The start battery will need a small top off. maybe of 2 - 5 AH and a voltage of around 13.4 V for a flooded battery. Depending of the type of house bank, flooded - AGM - Gel, the voltage may ramp up to 14.4 V for bulk charging. An echo charger has no control over the input side voltage, though the smarter units will choose when to operate and charge the battery on it's output, and may also protect a charged battery from over current. The better units do help, and are worth the price. They do not, in the context of charging profiles, create different profiles for two different batteries. If properly installed ( yes, they can be install wrong ) in normal use they will do exactly what you say - no flat or overcharged starting battery. My term solution was in reference to providing a fast bulk charge to the house bank, which as earlier commented on was not what the original CCs were designed for. Charging rates up to 30 amps might be possible, but above that wiring, alternator, belt and temperature concerns need to be considered. I see some boats that have upgraded to a high output marine alternator, serpentine belt kit, external three stage regulator and upgraded wiring. That is definitely a solution, albeit may be costly. With that setup an echo charger for the starting battery is pretty much required to get the best life out of it. My post pointed out that the DC - DC chargers are also worth a look at, particularly if the boat does minimal longer trips and bulk charges a year. Less money, possibly less rewiring. I like the echo chargers, do a great job for the money. I was on one boat for a beer and take a quick look at the charging setup. Nice high end alternator with a three stage external regulator. Never got the batteries fully charged. Took a while to figure out but the starter battery was connected to the house bank when the engine was running. Took a few beers to trace everything. I asked the owner if he has to add water to the starter battery much. He said no, maybe a few cups every week. Effectively the flooded lead acid starting battery was absorbing a lot of the charging current and boiling away. Fixed everything with some slight re-wiring and telling the owner to add an echo charger. Rich - what brand do you use? Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca , 5/8/2014 10:23 AM: Michael: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? I have had one on my boat for 11 years now with never a flat battery and no overcharging problems. Ditto all the boats I have installed them on. Rich On May 7, 2014, at 12:11, Michael Brown via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: There is no single charging profile that works when you are trying to charge a barely discharged smaller starting battery and a large fully discharged house battery in parallel. Workaround - see solutions below. Note that a Voltage Sensitive Relay or Echo Charger can help a bit but is not a solution. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Aren't they all lead acid batteries of one sort or another...the lead acid battery is pretty ancient technology...someone said the old CC's didn't come well equipped to handle the various types of lead acid batteries, my question; why not? -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: May 8, 2014 12:19 PM To: Della Barba, Joe; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries If I read you right, I'm not sure this is a true statement as the EC has little work to do replenishing a starting battery and settles out at a voltage well below any that might be problematic for any type of battery. Rich On May 8, 2014, at 11:44, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: If one battery is a gel the other one has to be as well. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. Exactly. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. The DC - DC smart chargers provide most of that, by keeping a 13.4 V output alternator which is fine for charging / topping off the start battery and adding a smart three stage charger for the house bank. The Sail Net link Certainly understand the problems with unclear documentation. I assumed that the echo charger had a diode in it to prevent reverse current, and that diode caused a slight voltage drop. The blurb states limited voltage drop which doesn't help much. I guess if the house bank ramps up to 14.4 V during the bulk charge stage, and the echo charger has a 0,2 V diode drop then the time the start battery is being possibly overcharged is limited. Not perfect but may not cause any damage. I see from the manual: When it reaches 14.4/28.8 volts, the charge current will decrease, maintaining a float condition. The starter battery will be fully charged without overcharging. May effectively work that way, but it does contravene basic electrical theory. The battery has a rest voltage, as an example for a flooded lead acid at room temperature it might be 12.8 V. Most batteries will accept a long term trickle charge, lets say 13.2 V. This is overcharging the battery maybe a little bit, hard to know if any measurable loss of battery life will result. The marine alternator may be set to 13.4 V, a compromise to charge a discharged battery and not overcharge it during a longer run. The only way you could get 14.4 V on a flooded lead acid would be to pump some current into it, or alternatively if you forced the voltage to 14.4 V there would be current flow. You cannot arbitrarily set a voltage and a current across a load at the same time, laws of electricity derive current from voltage and load resistance, or voltage from current and load resistance. The Sail Net rant follows logic fairly well, but concludes incorrectly. The part that the writer missed is that the echo charger is designed to follow a smart charger. There may be a period of time when the source bank is ramping up in voltage and the start battery is being overcharged, but at some point the smart charger will drop back to float voltage and so will the start battery. Further, if the start battery is discharged a bit and there is a diode based voltage drop in the echo charger it may not cause a problem. So the issue of the echo charger not disconnecting may not be an issue. Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 15:17:11 -0300 From: Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov, cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries Message-ID: a879cbc6-2da8-4e32-9693-57466ef4f...@sailpower.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii That's the sail net item I'm not sure about. I'm going to do some tests just to satisfy my curiosity. Anyway, they do an excellent job of whatever they do:) Rich On May 8, 2014, at 14:38, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Not exactly. It has an upper limit and a low voltage disconnect, but it does not regulate between these too. See http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html for details. Joe Della Barba Coquina -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 1:12 PM To: w...@wbryant.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries Is. Not the EC a voltage regulator? Rich On May 8, 2014, at 13:00, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I think he meant it's not the *perfect* solution. The perfect solution would be a separate voltage regulator for the starting battery, which probably would mean a second alternator/charger, which just doesn't make sense on our boats. I worried for a few years when I watched a fully charged starting battery getting 14-plus volts while the house bank was still in acceptance mode. However, the fully starting battery wasn't accepting any amps, so it doesn't seem to matter. I've never had a problem with it. Wal you wrote: Can you please explain why you say the Echo Charge is not a solution? -- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 14:33:11 -0400 From: Michael Brown via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca, cnc-list Cnc-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries Message-ID: 3706695285-26...@mail.tkg.ca Content-Type: text/plain
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Being concise ... The setup on the older CCs is fairly bad for bulk charging of a larger house battery bank. 1) Wiring The path had the alternator output running the distance back to an ammeter on the instrument panel, then back usually to the starter post, then possibly through a switch and to the battery. The wire gauge is sufficient for topping off a battery at 10 - 15 amps, but considering that accurate bulk charging requires a voltage accuracy at the battery terminals of usually +/- 0.1 volt there is too much voltage drop. Workarounds - rewire and remove the ammeter, upgrade wire size, add a remote sensing regulator. 2) Alternator Most are designed for short bulk charges and then topping off a battery. There is too little airflow to provide proper cooling at sustained high output. Even the belt and bearing load becomes a problem when up sizing. Workarounds - add a second purpose built alternator on a flat belt, use a regulator that has a remote temp sensor for the alternator. 3) Mixed batteries There is no single charging profile that works when you are trying to charge a barely discharged smaller starting battery and a large fully discharged house battery in parallel. Workaround - see solutions below. Note that a Voltage Sensitive Relay or Echo Charger can help a bit but is not a solution. 4) Charge status If your are running a load on the boat and using a smart regulator at the same time the regulator has a difficult time figuring out what is going on. Consider a device that holds the voltage slightly higher for the absorption stage, which is based on a set percentage of house battery capacity in amp hours. Maybe with a 120 amp hour battery the regulator wants to see less than 8 amps ( all fictitious numbers ) before it switches from the absorption stage. If the boat load is 6 amps the regulator is effectively going to stay in the absorption stage too long, which may shorten the battery life. Possible solution I feel that 50 amps continuous from a alternator rated at 100 amps will match my needs and not overload the belt system. So the max bulk charge for me is about 40 amps, which fits a newer AGM 120 amp hour battery. The key to the setup is to use a DC - DC smart charger. This is an example of that genre of product: http://promariner.com/products/marine-dc-to-dc-charging-systems/ What it does is allow a normal alternator to be set at a voltage which is safe long term for topping off a battery. That same voltage would take way too long to fully recharge a large house bank. The DC - DC charger accepts the alternator voltage ( maybe 13.4 volts ) and runs it through an DC - DC inverter to raise the voltage up to 14.4 ( AGM ) 14.6 ( flooded ) and up to 40 amps. This reduces the bulk charging time significantly and is under control of a smart charger. The starting battery will be left at 13.4 volts to be topped off safely and not overcharged. Note - the two battery banks ( or more - you could run two DC -DC charges at the same time if the alternator was up to it ) need to be isolated, ie not on both on a battery switch and the house load if any should not be on the battery bank being charged. With the engine running the load could be switched to the starter battery. Even at 40 amps the charger supplies temp sensing inputs for both the battery and alternator. No affiliation with the manufacture, and not trying to recommend a product. Just using it as an example of a smart DC - DC charging system that can be used underway. For more information there is a link to the manual from the same URL. Online pricing: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289948|2289953id=764855 At least one solution to look at. Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Most alternators I’ve seen (without an external regulator) will put out about 13.8V to 14.4V when charging. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 6, 2014, at 10:54 AM, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
An alternator, if no external smart regulator is present, will put out whatever the internal regulator is set at. It could be anything from 13.4 V to around 14. For a shore charger it is best to have a smart charger that will reduce the voltage to around 13.2 to avoid boiling off the electrolyte during prolonged charging. Rich On May 6, 2014, at 12:54, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
An alternator with a fixed set point will try and reach that voltage but not go over. It may not be able to reach it if the batteries are low and/or demand is high, but it will not go over. I have an adjustable regulator with a set screw to turn the set point from about 12 to 15 volts. Various “3 stage” or ‘smart” regulators will vary the set point according to their built-in programs and user settings. Some have temperature sensors that will change the set point according to alternator temp, battery temp, or both. For an example, a regulator might supply 14.4 volts for bulk and absorption stages and 13.5 volts for the float stage. This is a pretty complicated subject for an email list, but long-story-short is you can destroy very expensive batteries very quickly by not paying attention to what your alternator is trying to do. Ages ago I got an expensive Rolls 4D battery and the 13.8 volt setting on my stock 35 amp alternator was not even *close* to being able to adequately charge this battery and it sulfated to death in about a year or two ☹ Conversely gel batteries are quickly ruined by a regulator set over about 14.0/14.1 volts. Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 12:26 PM To: cenel...@aol.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries An alternator, if no external smart regulator is present, will put out whatever the internal regulator is set at. It could be anything from 13.4 V to around 14. For a shore charger it is best to have a smart charger that will reduce the voltage to around 13.2 to avoid boiling off the electrolyte during prolonged charging. Rich On May 6, 2014, at 12:54, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.commailto:cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
BTW – this book is excellent resource for all these kinds of things: http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/0071432388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1399394884sr=8-1keywords=nigel+calder+electrical Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
It is excellent! I have it on my iPad/Iphone so it is always aboard. Joel On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: BTW – this book is excellent resource for all these kinds of things: http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/0071432388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1399394884sr=8-1keywords=nigel+calder+electrical *Joe Della Barba* *Coquina* *CC 35 MK I* ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
One big issue here is that a lot depends on how much you use your batteries and how much you use your engine. If you motor a lot, you may have a chance of recharging the batteries (fully or close to it and even overcharging them (as Joe said)). But if you mostly sail and use the engine as auxiliary propulsion, you would hardly ever reach the full charge. This is one of the many reasons why many people install quite complex charging systems, especially, if they use any of the higher end batteries (e.g. the AGMs like to be fully charged after a discharge and require more complex charging curve). Marek (in Ottawa) (still on hard, but there is a light at the end of that tunnel) From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 12:46 PM To: Rich Knowles ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com ; cenel...@aol.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries An alternator with a fixed set point will try and reach that voltage but not go over. It may not be able to reach it if the batteries are low and/or demand is high, but it will not go over. I have an adjustable regulator with a set screw to turn the set point from about 12 to 15 volts. Various “3 stage” or ‘smart” regulators will vary the set point according to their built-in programs and user settings. Some have temperature sensors that will change the set point according to alternator temp, battery temp, or both. For an example, a regulator might supply 14.4 volts for bulk and absorption stages and 13.5 volts for the float stage. This is a pretty complicated subject for an email list, but long-story-short is you can destroy very expensive batteries very quickly by not paying attention to what your alternator is trying to do. Ages ago I got an expensive Rolls 4D battery and the 13.8 volt setting on my stock 35 amp alternator was not even *close* to being able to adequately charge this battery and it sulfated to death in about a year or two L Conversely gel batteries are quickly ruined by a regulator set over about 14.0/14.1 volts. Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 12:26 PM To: cenel...@aol.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries An alternator, if no external smart regulator is present, will put out whatever the internal regulator is set at. It could be anything from 13.4 V to around 14. For a shore charger it is best to have a smart charger that will reduce the voltage to around 13.2 to avoid boiling off the electrolyte during prolonged charging. Rich On May 6, 2014, at 12:54, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Charging with engine, was mixed batteries
Typical voltage regulator on an automotive alternator will provide 13.6 to 13.8 volts when the engine is running. As the batteries get charged up, which happens pretty quickly for a starting battery, the internal resistance of the battery will increase and the voltage will drop below 13.5. The voltage pretty well matches what is needed for a flooded battery. If you have a gel battery the mismatch is less critical because the battery is usually charged above 95% or so - unlike the batteries on a boat that get deeply discharged. Rick Brass Sent from my iPad On May 6, 2014, at 11:54, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse (battery), I have one more question for the list. When the average sailboat engine is running, what is the likely charging voltage to the battery or batteries? Unless one has an alternator output controller which matches the recommended voltages for the batteries being charged, it seems that they would be charged with whatever voltage the alternator supplies. If this is the case, and if one rarely charges the battery(s) at the dock, it seems a little pointless to fret over what the voltage profile the battery charger provides, since the batteries are likely charged mostly when the engine is running without such a controller. Charlie Nelson Water Phantom cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
