Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

I concur with Dave’s approach.

Faced with building up a large area around Calypso’s mast collar (we replaced 
the original plywood with solid glass/epoxy board) I used both epoxy board and 
many layers of 25 oz. bi-ax.  We worked from below as the deck’s inner skin is 
only 1/8” and the outer skin is ¼” to 7/16” thick.  I fabricated shapes of 
epoxy board that were used as an insert.  I built up the insert’s thickness 
with laminations of bi-ax and thickened epoxy.

To completely replace the plywood I needed ½” of build thickness. The insert 
ran between ¼” and 3/8”.  It took 7 to 8 additional layers of 25 oz. bi-ax 
(includes a layer of mat).  To reduce sanding I planned to complete the 
lamination in one session.  Even using vacuum bagging the weight of all that 
resin, cloth, and inserts was difficult to manage.  I ended up using the 
inserts as the last layer and physically applying pressure to aid the vacuum in 
removing voids.

Given my easy access to epoxy board, for the C&C 25’s keel bolt area build up I 
would use two thinner pieces of epoxy board (easier to shape) then build it up 
with cloth and resin.  I would follow Dave’s recommendations of prep steps to 
insure a good bond.  To protect the keel bolt threads I would use a piece of 
sheet Mylar or similar slipper film stuffed along the bolt with some 5 minute 
epoxy used to seal the edges.

If access to the repair area is difficult, consider the time trade off of 
opening up the floor above the bolt vs. working in very confined spaces.  
Rebuilding a flat floor area may be faster than time spent fighting an awkward 
location.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle

[Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 8:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave
Subject: Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

Ahmet - I think I get what you are trying to do.  A pre laminated and fitted 
angle would work.  Make a form, wider than you need and build up layers.  Make 
it way to big, then Trim and bevel to fit. (Angle grinder).  Epoxy in place, 
fill the void(pre drill) then laminate in place.

Btw, mat is NOT structural. it fills the spaces between the warp and weft of 
cloth or roving, making a denser laminate.

Others may disagree - would be interested in alternative approaches.

Dave

Ahmet - my approach to making flat pieces is to first laminate on a sheet of 
glass. With polyester, I build-up glass/mat alternating and laminated to a high 
glass content with a consolidator.  (A kind of roller)
With epoxy you can use biaxial stitch-mat with fine cloth or peel ply on top, 
then squeegee out  resin.  Use a layer of waxed paper between the glass (or 
Mdf) as a release layer.
If cured on the glass you can make amazing sheet parts, and assemble them with 
with fillets of epoxy.
You can also do the work above on a sheet of waxed paper and apply the 
resulting laminate before it kicks.  You basically make a band-aid and plop it 
in place.  (Essentially)Much easier and better than laminating in situ.  You 
can take these laminates and lay on a form, pre cure.
By progressively sizing the pieces, you can make band aids thicker in the 
middle, often useful.

In your case, if I understand correctly, I would combine both pre made pieces 
and pre laminated 'band aids).
I would fill the void with glass-rich epoxy.  If you need it to flow and level, 
use only a little cabosil.
You can get a veterinary syringe or make a piping bag out of a ziplock if you 
need to inject into a space.
Consider laying cloth on its bias for corners bridging seams.   Remember to 
feather edges to maximize gluing.

Dave.

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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Dave via CnC-List]

Ahmet - I think I get what you are trying to do.  A pre laminated and fitted 
angle would work.  Make a form, wider than you need and build up layers.  Make 
it way to big, then Trim and bevel to fit. (Angle grinder).  Epoxy in place, 
fill the void(pre drill) then laminate in place.

Btw, mat is NOT structural. it fills the spaces between the warp and weft of 
cloth or roving, making a denser laminate.  

Others may disagree - would be interested in alternative approaches.

Dave

Ahmet - my approach to making flat pieces is to first laminate on a sheet of 
glass. With polyester, I build-up glass/mat alternating and laminated to a high 
glass content with a consolidator.  (A kind of roller)
With epoxy you can use biaxial stitch-mat with fine cloth or peel ply on top, 
then squeegee out  resin.  Use a layer of waxed paper between the glass (or 
Mdf) as a release layer. 
If cured on the glass you can make amazing sheet parts, and assemble them with 
with fillets of epoxy.  
You can also do the work above on a sheet of waxed paper and apply the 
resulting laminate before it kicks.  You basically make a band-aid and plop it 
in place.  (Essentially)Much easier and better than laminating in situ.  You 
can take these laminates and lay on a form, pre cure.
By progressively sizing the pieces, you can make band aids thicker in the 
middle, often useful.

In your case, if I understand correctly, I would combine both pre made pieces 
and pre laminated 'band aids). 
I would fill the void with glass-rich epoxy.  If you need it to flow and level, 
use only a little cabosil.  
You can get a veterinary syringe or make a piping bag out of a ziplock if you 
need to inject into a space.  
Consider laying cloth on its bias for corners bridging seams.   Remember to 
feather edges to maximize gluing.  

Dave.

 


Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:50:57 -0500
From: Ahmet 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...
Message-ID:
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thank You, that is a lot of information condensed.
I have a challenge. Whoever built my hull # 5, missed the sump location by
an inch. So I need to extend the sump wall horizontally.
I would thing that I would start wetting structural mat and go horizontally
out from where the exposed nut is. It is basically a 4 inch vertical wall
than needs to be filled in.
The situation is in PIC 3 <http://www.boatjuggler.com/images/pic3.jpg>
Here is sort of a drawing <http://www.boatjuggler.com/images/Drawing.jpg>I
have.
What might  be the best way to build up the vertical wall that will
eventually withstand the pressure of the nut besides just keep on adding
cloth until I have the desired width ?
Ahmet
Sent from my iPhone___

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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Dave via CnC-List]

Ahmet - my approach to making flat pieces is to first laminate on a sheet of 
glass. With polyester, I build-up glass/mat alternating and laminated to a high 
glass content with a consolidator.  (A kind of roller)
With epoxy you can use biaxial stitch-mat with fine cloth or peel ply on top, 
then squeegee out  resin.  Use a layer of waxed paper between the glass (or 
Mdf) as a release layer. 
If cured on the glass you can make amazing sheet parts, and assemble them with 
with fillets of epoxy.  
You can also do the work above on a sheet of waxed paper and apply the 
resulting laminate before it kicks.  You basically make a band-aid and plop it 
in place.  (Essentially)Much easier and better than laminating in situ.  You 
can take these laminates and lay on a form, pre cure.
By progressively sizing the pieces, you can make band aids thicker in the 
middle, often useful.

In your case, if I understand correctly, I would combine both pre made pieces 
and pre laminated 'band aids). 
I would fill the void with glass-rich epoxy.  If you need it to flow and level, 
use only a little cabosil.  
You can get a veterinary syringe or make a piping bag out of a ziplock if you 
need to inject into a space.  
Consider laying cloth on its bias for corners bridging seams.   Remember to 
feather edges to maximize gluing.  

Dave.

 


Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:50:57 -0500
From: Ahmet 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...
Message-ID:
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thank You, that is a lot of information condensed.
I have a challenge. Whoever built my hull # 5, missed the sump location by
an inch. So I need to extend the sump wall horizontally.
I would thing that I would start wetting structural mat and go horizontally
out from where the exposed nut is. It is basically a 4 inch vertical wall
than needs to be filled in.
The situation is in PIC 3 <http://www.boatjuggler.com/images/pic3.jpg>
Here is sort of a drawing <http://www.boatjuggler.com/images/Drawing.jpg>I
have.
What might  be the best way to build up the vertical wall that will
eventually withstand the pressure of the nut besides just keep on adding
cloth until I have the desired width ?
Ahmet
Sent from my iPhone___

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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Dave via CnC-List]

Yup, bog, same stuff, and I think it's the more common slang.  By dad and his 
buddies called it that at the Ontario boatbuilders coop back in the 80s, cow 
flap is how Bristol marine described it to me recently.   Blobs attaching the 
liner to the hull in my 33ii meet that description. 
  I recently removed all of this stuff from my 33ii keel stub and it was damp 
throughout and cracked.  Still intact/strong enough though.  No hyd back stay.  
When looking to purchase this boat I saw many with hydraulic back stays that 
had buckled/rippled  top sides near the chain plates. (Or equivalent). 
Sometimes subtle, sometimes not.  Never once have I seen this noted on a survey.

Dave



> ... Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in 
> our c&cs.

Is "cow flap" polyester the same orange, hard filler used by Bruckmann's in the 
early 70's?  I have heard it called "bog".

Sent from my iPhone___

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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

If I may add to that exhaustive list of advice, 

ascetic acid (vinegar) can be used for cleaning epoxy, before it hardens. It 
gets into reaction with epoxy resin monomers and neutralises them in the 
process. So if you are doing any epoxy work it helps to have a bottle with 
vinegar and a rag handy for cleaning hands, tools or spilled resin. This works 
only if the epoxy has not set yet.

Marek

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Martin DeYoung via CnC-List
Sent: November 24, 2015 21:35
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Martin DeYoung
Subject: Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...


>... Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
>c&cs.

Is "cow flap" polyester the same orange, hard filler used by Bruckmann's in the 
early 70's?  I have heard it called "bog".

Many of the failed balsa areas in Calypso's deck were bordered by the orange 
"bog" filler.  Water intrusion from one place would migrate through cracks in 
the bog to many other places.

Back in 1998 we repaired hull fractures (actually leaking sea water into the 
bilge) caused by the forward keel stub's bog failing to prevent flexing.  My 
best guess is 28 years of hard sailing made harder by the use of hydraulic back 
stay tensioners stressed the solid glass layup to fracture.  Sea water found 
the path into the bilge through the cracked bog filler.

The 1998/99 repair was to grind out all the bog, re-laminate inside and out, 
and finish up with much less epoxy filler.  After looking at the C&C build 
drawings for the early 43's I noticed C&C/Bruckmann's added extra structure 
forward from the mast step to stiffen this area.  We will be adding something 
similar during the current deck restoration project.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave
Subject: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.    The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

Thank You, that is a lot of information condensed.
I have a challenge. Whoever built my hull # 5, missed the sump location by
an inch. So I need to extend the sump wall horizontally.
I would thing that I would start wetting structural mat and go horizontally
out from where the exposed nut is. It is basically a 4 inch vertical wall
than needs to be filled in.
The situation is in PIC 3 
 Here is sort of a drawing I
have.
What might  be the best way to build up the vertical wall that will
eventually withstand the pressure of the nut besides just keep on adding
cloth until I have the desired width ?
Ahmet

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Dave via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)-
> hard to fair but strong - structural.
> Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy
> from flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass
> will do that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can
> still sag.  You need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will
> vary - is this for coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing,
> structural filling?
> Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different
> materials.
> Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our
> c&cs.
>
> Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off
> after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum
> bagging).   Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works.
>
> Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl
> alcohol for clean up (a challenge)
>
> Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release.
>
> I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon
> site and many others .
>
> Great stuff to experiment with.
>
> Dave
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C&C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
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Re: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

>... Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
>c&cs.

Is "cow flap" polyester the same orange, hard filler used by Bruckmann's in the 
early 70's?  I have heard it called "bog".

Many of the failed balsa areas in Calypso's deck were bordered by the orange 
"bog" filler.  Water intrusion from one place would migrate through cracks in 
the bog to many other places.

Back in 1998 we repaired hull fractures (actually leaking sea water into the 
bilge) caused by the forward keel stub's bog failing to prevent flexing.  My 
best guess is 28 years of hard sailing made harder by the use of hydraulic back 
stay tensioners stressed the solid glass layup to fracture.  Sea water found 
the path into the bilge through the cracked bog filler.

The 1998/99 repair was to grind out all the bog, re-laminate inside and out, 
and finish up with much less epoxy filler.  After looking at the C&C build 
drawings for the early 43's I noticed C&C/Bruckmann's added extra structure 
forward from the mast step to stiffen this area.  We will be adding something 
similar during the current deck restoration project.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C&C 43
Seattle


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dave
Subject: Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
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Stus-List Epoxy fillers and other stuff...

[Dave via CnC-List]

Glass strands (various lengths from milled fibres to chopped strands)- hard to 
fair but strong - structural.
Fumed silica - cab-o-sil - this is a colloidal filler, it keeps the epoxy from 
flowing.  This is not the same thing as making it 'thicker'  - glass will do 
that, but without silica, the reain can still run, fillers can still sag.  You 
need silica to make putty.The stiffness of the mix will vary - is this for 
coating, laminating, adhesion with gap filling, fairing, structural filling?
Micro balloons - fillers with various degrees of fair-ability.  Different 
materials.
Talc - cheap-ass filler used in bondo and 'cow flap' polyester used in our 
c&cs.  

Peel ply - a nylon material that is porous to epoxy that can be lifted off 
after cure.  Leaves a finished surface.  (More significant in vaccum bagging).  
 Nylon taffeta from the fabric store works. 

Acetone can be used on a cloth to help shape 'b stage' epoxy.  Isopropyl 
alcohol for clean up (a challenge)

Waxed paper or 'tack tape' works as a release. 

I welcome critiques or additions  Lots of good info on the gougeon site and 
many others .

Great stuff to experiment with.

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone
___

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