Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

 I believe the PHRF narrative used to say that the numbers were based on at 
least 50% windward work.  So w/l courses were covered as well as olympic, but 
single triangles would not be good for the handicap numbers.However, since the 
numbers are averaged over all winds, clearly they aren't meant to be taken to 
the nearest second.  Earlier PHRF suggestions stated not to make corrections 
less that 6sec/mi.  Don't know what the current narrative states.RonWild 
CheriC 30-1STL

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019, 09:01:43 AM CST, Matthew L. Wolford via 
CnC-List  wrote:  
 
 All this talk about PHRF reminds me that, back in the day when a lot of C 
and other older model boat data was compiled, a typical course configuration 
where I sailed was a 15-mile triangle (five mile legs) in Lake Erie (consistent 
wind, more waves).   The local fleet later went to a 15-mile modified gold cup 
configuration (three mile legs, more weather work), and then stopped doing 
regular lake racing in favor of racing in a protected bay (less wind 
consistency, less waves).  Windward leeward courses in the bay are now fairly 
common.  These changes make a big difference in how a boat sails to a rating 
that was established decades ago.  If the original base rating was established 
with more reaching and less weather work, and now we are doing more weather 
work, the course itself penalizes boats like a 30-1. Another issue is the 
quality of the sailing that occurred when the base rating was established.  The 
33-1, for example, was a very popular boat.  Some of them were raced seriously, 
some not so seriously (the family dog on the bow).  The base rating was 
established using all the data, not just the “serious” racing data.  As a 
result, if a 33-1 is outfitted with new rags and a good crew, it can do very 
well with its rating. Too many variables to account for. 
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

 I've heard of folks replacing the mast with a "D" section type and double 
spreaders, along with a little extra height.  Less weight aloft would keep it 
more upright to carry more sail area and more sail area would give a nice boost 
to acceleration after a tack, not to mention top speed for any given wind.  
Since SA/D is one of three main determining factors for handicap, that would 
certainly draw some attention from the committee.RonWild CheriC 30-1STL

On Friday, December 13, 2019, 09:08:32 AM CST, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 
I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 

  



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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

All this talk about PHRF reminds me that, back in the day when a lot of C and 
other older model boat data was compiled, a typical course configuration where 
I sailed was a 15-mile triangle (five mile legs) in Lake Erie (consistent wind, 
more waves).   The local fleet later went to a 15-mile modified gold cup 
configuration (three mile legs, more weather work), and then stopped doing 
regular lake racing in favor of racing in a protected bay (less wind 
consistency, less waves).  Windward leeward courses in the bay are now fairly 
common.  These changes make a big difference in how a boat sails to a rating 
that was established decades ago.  If the original base rating was established 
with more reaching and less weather work, and now we are doing more weather 
work, the course itself penalizes boats like a 30-1.

Another issue is the quality of the sailing that occurred when the base rating 
was established.  The 33-1, for example, was a very popular boat.  Some of them 
were raced seriously, some not so seriously (the family dog on the bow).  The 
base rating was established using all the data, not just the “serious” racing 
data.  As a result, if a 33-1 is outfitted with new rags and a good crew, it 
can do very well with its rating.

Too many variables to account for.

From: Michael Brown via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 11:18 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

There is not much consistency between PHRF districts on rating adjustments for
items like sail measurements or prop type. That makes comparing the class PHRF
( SP - speed potential ) and individual boat PHRF ( ASP - adjusted speed 
potential )
difficult without knowing all the details.

As an example ...


PHRF-LO has numerous adjustments, both penalties and credits. On the main sail
we measure HW ( head width ), MGT ( mid girth top - 7/8  ), MGU ( mid girth 
upper - 3/4)
and MGM ( mid girth - 1/2 ).  The hoist ( P ) and foot ( E ) are from tables.

The measured sail area ( MAmsd ) is compared to the standard sail area ( MAstd 
) to
get a ratio which then gives a penalty or credit. Of note is that the standard 
main sail
area assumes a lot of roach.




MAIN AREA Standard (MAstd):

HWstd = 0.04 * E or 0.5’ (whichever is greater)
MGT = 0.22 * E
MGUstd = 0.38 * E
MGMstd = 0.65 * E

MAStd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGMstd+1.5*MGUstd+MGTstd+0.5*HWstd)

MAIN AREA Measured (MAmsd) :

MAMsd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGM+1.5*MGU+MGT+0.5*HW)

The ratio will provide the percent sail area for adjustment of the ASP.

https://www.phrf-lo.org/images/Meetings/MainsailTable_2017.pdf


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: Joel Aronson  
To: cnc-list  
Sent: 12/16/2019 1:49 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


  PHRF of the Chesapeake gives credit for genoas under 140%.  140 is the same 
as 155 for ratings purposes.There is an adjustment for folding/feathering 
props, but I think it is only 6 seconds.

  On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 1:46 PM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:

PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good to 
excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop, and so 
forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some adjustments for 
smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up with a double handed 
fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which fall outside of PHRF. Any 
way to get boats out of their slips.



Gary



From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of CHARLES 
SCHEAFFER via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments



My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.  



Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds. 



Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R 



  On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote: 

  Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for: 



  * The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. 
The minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance. 

  * The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly. 
 Its principles state that handicaps are adjusted

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

There is not much consistency between PHRF districts on rating adjustments for
items like sail measurements or prop type. That makes comparing the class PHRF
( SP - speed potential ) and individual boat PHRF ( ASP - adjusted speed 
potential )
difficult without knowing all the details.


As an example ...



PHRF-LO has numerous adjustments, both penalties and credits. On the main sail
we measure HW ( head width ), MGT ( mid girth top - 7/8  ), MGU ( mid girth 
upper - 3/4)
and MGM ( mid girth - 1/2 ).  The hoist ( P ) and foot ( E ) are from tables.


The measured sail area ( MAmsd ) is compared to the standard sail area ( MAstd 
) to
get a ratio which then gives a penalty or credit. Of note is that the standard 
main sail
area assumes a lot of roach.




MAIN AREA Standard (MAstd): 
HWstd = 0.04 * E or 0.5’ (whichever is greater)
MGT = 0.22 * E
MGUstd = 0.38 * E
MGMstd = 0.65 * E 
MAStd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGMstd+1.5*MGUstd+MGTstd+0.5*HWstd) 
MAIN AREA Measured (MAmsd) : 
MAMsd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGM+1.5*MGU+MGT+0.5*HW) 
The ratio will provide the percent sail area for adjustment of the ASP.
https://www.phrf-lo.org/images/Meetings/MainsailTable_2017.pdf




Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




 From:   Joel Aronson  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   12/16/2019 1:49 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


PHRF of the Chesapeake gives credit for genoas under 140%.  140 is the same as 
155 for ratings purposes.    There is an adjustment for folding/feathering 
props, but I think it is only 6 seconds.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 1:46 PM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:



PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good to 
excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop, and so 
forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some adjustments for 
smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up with a double handed 
fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which fall outside of PHRF. Any 
way to get boats out of their slips.
 
Gary
 


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
 

My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.  

 

Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds. 

 

Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R 

 
On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote: 

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for: 

 

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance. 

* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance. 

* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results. 

* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year. 
___
 
 Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 
 


-- 



Joel 

 ___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

David
PHRF ratings in Narr Bay are done on the apparent design performance of 
specific class variants (Mk-1, Mk-2, dk, cb, tm, etc} and then any of 
the boat's modifications that are shown on that boats PHRF application 
(weight reduction, sail areas, etc.) This is compared to other boats 
racing on Narragansett Bay, not to other venues.  The rating committee 
assumes the boat is well prepared, equipment, bottom, sails, crew,...  
Looking at the PHRF-NB ratings for C 40s I can only see one 40 rated 
in the last few years, a C 40 Mk2 tm dk with no direct comparison 
rated in NE.  However scanning the ratings I do find that Narr Bay's 
rating for the 40s about 3sec slower compared to NE.


Don Kern
Fireball C 35 Mk2
Bristol RI


On 12/16/2019 12:48 PM, David Risch via CnC-List wrote:
This does not explain why my 40's base  rating is slower in a light 
air venue (Narragansett) and faster in breezy venue (Buzzards Bay) 
when the boat historically is a faster light air boat.


One of the reasons I only race long distance vs. Chasing my tail 
around buoys.




Too subjective even at base.

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


*From:* CnC-List  on behalf of CHARLES 
SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 

*Sent:* Monday, December 16, 2019 9:19:42 AM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
*Cc:* CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 


*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the 
rating committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a 
serious complaint or an appeal to get their attention, and some good 
solid race results to make a judgement.  Someone I know asked for an 
appeal to raise his rating and was denied.  He had to answer a list of 
questions that revealed he had older sails, inexperienced crew, and 
never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing season.  The 
rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.


Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo 
sailors?  I heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds.


Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R

On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I 
was looking for:


* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual 
review. The minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 
adjustments based on performance.
* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance 
regularly.  Its principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the 
basis of the boat's performance.
* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club 
handicapper provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of 
races based on results.
* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently 
from their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.


___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

PHRF of the Chesapeake gives credit for genoas under 140%.  140 is the same
as 155 for ratings purposes.There is an adjustment for
folding/feathering props, but I think it is only 6 seconds.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 1:46 PM Gary Nylander via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good
> to excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop,
> and so forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some
> adjustments for smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up
> with a double handed fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which
> fall outside of PHRF. Any way to get boats out of their slips.
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *CHARLES
> SCHEAFFER via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown <
> m...@tkg.ca>
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
>
>
>
> My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the
> rating committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious
> complaint or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race
> results to make a judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise
> his rating and was denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that
> revealed he had older sails, inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the
> bottom of his boat during the racing season.  The rating assumes you have
> properly prepared the boat to race, have decent sails, and knowledgeable
> crew and clean bottom.
>
>
>
> Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?
> I heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds.
>
>
>
> Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R
>
>
>
> On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was
> looking for:
>
>
>
> * The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review.
> The minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based
> on performance.
>
> * The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.
> Its principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's
> performance.
>
> * At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club
> handicapper provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races
> based on results.
>
> * In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from
> their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>

-- 
Joel
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good to 
excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop, and so 
forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some adjustments for 
smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up with a double handed 
fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which fall outside of PHRF. Any 
way to get boats out of their slips.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.  

 

Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds. 

 

Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R 

 

On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: 

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for: 

 

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance. 

* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance. 

* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results. 

* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year. 

___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

The listed weight of the 30-1 on the spec sheets is 8000#. I doubt there was 
ever one that light. The ones which have been weighed seem to hover around 
9000. After looking at Rich’s #1, I can see a lot of differences, such as his 
chainplate system. And, after seeing pictures of other boats – mine has the 
teak and holly floor throughout, a sump pump for the shower, pressure water, 
hot water heater, two batteries, and the three burner propane stove/oven which 
were accessories. 

 

>From some earlier comments by owners, I don’t think the raising of the boom 
>did much for performance, but it did relieve a lot of headaches. 

 

And I agree with Michael, the boat does quite well in 15 knots and above.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Michael Brown via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 8:29 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

Also the 30-1 is far from a one design.

 

The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things

like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the

later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed

and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by

side with obvious differences in the spreader height.

 

At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While

not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be

as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other.


Michael Brown

Windburn

C 30-1






From: Fred Hazzard mailto:fshazz...@gmail.com> > 
To: mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: 12/13/2019 7:33 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

 

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 

 

Gary Nylander

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

David,

PHRF NE covers not only Buzzards Bay but also Cape Cod Bay and Marblehead
the latter being a notoriously light air location in the summer.  It seems
like various regions try to gauge averages to meet the widest range of
sailing conditions.  In YRLIS, an area for which the C 40 was designed to
provide an alternative to the NY 40,  the C 40 handicaps range from 90-99
base rating depending on rig, keel, and year whereas PHRF-NE the range is
87-102.  Why?  Who knows?  Maybe certain boats were kicking butt and
somebody got the ear of the local handicapper and everything went sideways
after that.. It could happen.   I do remember there were several fast 40s in
Buzzards Bay that took full advantage of their rating such as Blair Brown's
Grayhound and Bill Dingwell's Zoomer.

I still think the most fair way to handle the PHRF rating conundrum is to
have a handicap for both the boat and the crew.  Hard to do without having a
past performance index for the crew, but one or two races to accumulate some
results might really level the playing field and reward crews and boats that
make big improvements over the course of a year or two.   Our YC has a
system where when a boat wins a Wednesday night beercan race, they get 10
points subtracted from their handicap for the rest of the month.  2 wins,
-20 seconds (which is the max penalty for the month).  At the beginning of
each month, the handicap reverts to their certificate handicap issued by the
local PHRF person.

I suspect that back when many of our boats were being built and raced,
nobody gave much  thought to any rating other than IOR.

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 35 Landfall

Padanaram, MA

 



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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[David Risch via CnC-List]

This does not explain why my 40's base  rating is slower in a light air venue 
(Narragansett) and faster in breezy venue (Buzzards Bay) when the boat 
historically is a faster light air boat.

One of the reasons I only race long distance vs. Chasing my tail around buoys.

Too subjective even at base.

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: CnC-List  on behalf of CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:19:42 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.

Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds.

Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R

On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for:

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance.
* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance.
* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results.
* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.
___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom. 

Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds.

Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R


> On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
> looking for:
> 
> * The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. 
> The minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
> performance.
> * The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly. 
>  Its principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
> performance.
> * At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club 
> handicapper provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races 
> based on results.
> * In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently 
> from their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.
> 
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for:

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance.
* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance.
* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results.
* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.

I believe that such regular reviews and adjustments based on observed 
performance are part of the intent of PHRF.  For example the class rules 
(https://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf 
<https://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf>) of PHRF of 
Southern California, which started PHRF (see 
https://www.phrfsocal.org/phrf-history/ 
<https://www.phrfsocal.org/phrf-history/> and 
https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/ 
<https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/>), provide for up to 
three rating reviews per year for a boat, in section 4 of the class rules.

I asked about this because I suspect not every Regional Sailing Association (to 
use the US Sailing term) conducts regular reviews and adjustments based on 
observed performance.  And in my opinion that is a problem.  My RSA, the 
Sailing Association of Intermountain Lakes (http://rmsail.org, in US Sailing’s 
Area F), appointed a new PHRF Chairperson this year, who reviewed ratings as 
annual PHRF certificates were renewed, but any adjustments made were not based 
on observed performance.  Rather they were made by looking at “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps 
<https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps>/) and 
averaging ratings for a boat from other fleets with “similar" conditions (Area 
F inland lakes).  As a result two boats in my club’s PHRF fleet, which do not 
win regularly, were rated faster - while the boats that win most often kept 
their same ratings.  While I understand the logic for the methodology, it 
doesn't seem aligned with the intent of PHRF, and seems somewhat arbitrary.

As noted in this thread, there is a range of ratings across RSAs for the same 
boat.  In the case of the C 30 MK I, it’s an 18-second range from 168-186.   
There is no information in “the book” about predominant conditions to justify 
different ratings in the range.  Nor is it possible to tell what a given RSA’s 
rating about a boat assumes, e.g. folding propeller or not.  So there seems to 
be a bit of arbitrariness in the system.

I’m lobbying in my club and RSA for regular reviews and adjustments based on 
observed performance.  So I’m glad to find precedent for that amongst the 
organizations in which members of this list race.

Best Regards,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO


> On Dec 15, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season.
> All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering
> goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than
> three times, races with less than three boats.
> 
> Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from
> their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Brown
> Windburn
> C 30-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Randy Stafford  
> To:  
> Sent: 12/12/2019 5:36 PM 
> Subject: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 
> 
> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often 
> do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  
> 
> The introduction in “the book” 
> (https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/ 
> <https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/>) says 
> under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
> by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
> boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
> estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
> <https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf> 
> shows that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and 
> adjust based on local experience. 
> 
> So, how many of y’all do that?
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 

___

Thanks everyone for

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

 I have a 30-1 shoal draft.  It's only 6-9in shorter, depending on where one 
gets the info.  It's also hundres of pounds heavier.  C did that to keep the 
righting moment the same I believe.RonWild CheriC 30-1STL

On Sunday, December 15, 2019, 11:32:19 AM CST, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 
I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is a 
drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – dotted line 
about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other mentions in the manual 
(which covers most of the early boats and is dated from 1976 to 1979, depending 
on the page.

Gary Nylander

#593

  

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Rick Brass via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

  

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

  

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

  

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

  

  

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

  

  

  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Fred Hazzard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

  

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

  

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

  
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  ___

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Stus-List PHRF Reviews

[Robert Gallagher via CnC-List]

There was a shoal draft 30-1.  I believe it was 4.1 ft.  I have seen one on
the hard. It also
had an offset prop shaft.

Rob G
C36MKII
Ex C 30 MKI & MKII owner
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Also the 30-1 is far from a one design.


The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things
like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the
later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed
and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by
side with obvious differences in the spreader height.


At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While
not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be
as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Fred Hazzard  
 To:
 Sent:   12/13/2019 7:33 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 



I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 


Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
C 44
Portland Or 



On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 



 
Gary Nylander ___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season.
All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering
goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than
three times, races with less than three boats.


Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.




Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:
 Sent:   12/12/2019 5:36 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  


The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 


So, how many of y’all do that?


Cheers,
Randy



On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Dear Sir,


RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7


I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.


Regretfully, Lee   

 
Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 

 


On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Listers-


When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.


Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where a 
guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.


I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.


Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
“30-1 1971N”.
Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but hasn’t 
posted his HIN yet.
Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made 
in 1971.
Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 
boat.
Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard from 
here or in the Facebook group.
Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is CCY301231172 
(CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open until 
February 1976)


It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve 
learnt.


Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO___

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___

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___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[james via CnC-List]

Yes there definitely was a shoal draft version of the 30-1 with a draft 
of 4'3". My family had a 1971 shoal draft 30-1 that we purchased at the 
Annapolis Boat Show. We raced it for many years on the Pamlico River 
with a PHRF rating of 180. We won a lot of silver and had our rating 
protested several times (but it was never adjusted). I'm pretty sure 
that we never failed to win any race that had winds of 15+ Knots of 
wind. Interesting side note, my father was part of the group that 
brought PHRF to North Carolina and started NC-PHRF.


James Taylor

Delaney, C 38-2

Oriental, NC


On 12/15/2019 12:31 PM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List wrote:


I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is 
a drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – 
dotted line about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other 
mentions in the manual (which covers most of the early boats and is 
dated from 1976 to 1979, depending on the page.


Gary Nylander

#593

*From:*CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Rick 
Brass via CnC-List

*Sent:* Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Cc:* Rick Brass 
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 
174. That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on 
information supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first 
manufactured.


The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a 
low of 168 to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in 
local conditions” as you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend 
on modifications, sails, and all the other variables that PHRF considers.


NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: 
Anchovy and Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this 
really be a 30-2?) rated at 180.


Rick Brass

Washington, NC

*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Fred Hazzard via CnC-List

*Sent:* Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* Fred Hazzard mailto:fshazz...@gmail.com>>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego 
for example.


Fred Hazzard

S/V Fury

C 44

Portland Or


___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is a 
drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – dotted line 
about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other mentions in the manual 
(which covers most of the early boats and is dated from 1976 to 1979, depending 
on the page.

Gary Nylander

#593

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Rick Brass via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

 

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

 

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: Fred Hazzard mailto:fshazz...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

 

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

 

___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

 

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

 

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Fred Hazzard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

 

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

 

___

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Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

Have to agree with Dwightgotta PHRF the boat.how in the world 
could you rate the 'dramatic differences in conditions'.much, if not 
most of the racing I have done has been in dramatic differences of 
conditions.


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.


On 12/13/2019 10:19 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List wrote:

Good boats sailed well do good simple right

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 8:34 PM Fred Hazzard via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the
dramatic differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco
verses San Diego for example.

Fred Hazzard
S/V Fury
C 44
Portland Or



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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Good boats sailed well do good simple right

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 8:34 PM Fred Hazzard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic
> differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for
> example.
>
> Fred Hazzard
> S/V Fury
> C 44
> Portland Or
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in
>> performance. PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around
>> the country, the 30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull
>> numbers over 600 seem to have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and
>> is 174 also). There may be exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat
>> (assuming it has not been modified in major ways) would prompt a review.
>> I’m not sure what one would do to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you
>> cut a bunch of weight off the keel – and that would decrease it’s
>> performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake rendezvous a couple months
>> ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very similar to my 593,
>> only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and some cabinet
>> doors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Nylander
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *David
>> Knecht via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:40 PM
>> *To:* CnC discussion list CnC 
>> *Cc:* David Knecht 
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
>>
>>
>>
>> I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at
>> least 10 years.  Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> S/V Aries
>>
>> 1990 C 34+
>>
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how
>> often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?
>>
>>
>>
>> The introduction in “the book” (
>> https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/)
>> says under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a
>> handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is
>> chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may
>> permit a more refined estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of
>> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
>> shows
>> that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust
>> based on local experience.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, how many of y’all do that?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sir,
>>
>>
>>
>> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
>>
>>
>>
>> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With
>> over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and
>> only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I
>> expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the
>> additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.
>> I have suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF
>> number, but the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat
>> you have chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat,
>> you would be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which
>> is depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to
>> the sport.  You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regretfully, Lee
>>
>> Yea, cold and wet in Seattle
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Listers-
>>
>>
>>
>> When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the
>> conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based
>> on this old post:
>> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html
>> .
>>

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Shawn Wright via CnC-List]

Interesting discussion as I just decided to join the cruising class at our
local club, which is for boats without an official PHRF rating; the club
handicapper provides a rating for instead, and it is reviewed after each
series of races based on results. Our 35-2 was given a rating of 175 based
on a 135 genoa only. The other 35-2 in the club has a 145 PHRF rating with
a spinnaker.

I'm not really into competitive racing (and Callisto is definitely not set
up for it), but look forward to trying out some casual racing.
--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 5:00 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> A friend of mine was chairman of the Western Long Island Sound PHRF
> committee, and he told me that across the country the PHRF committees give
> certain boats the same base rating, kind of yardstick boats, so to speak,
> so all the committees will be working to the same reference.  The C 35 Mk
> 1 is one of those, possibly the 30 Mk 1 is too.
>
> Neil Gallagher
> Weatherly, 35-1
> Glen Cove, NY
>
> On 12/13/2019 7:33 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List wrote:
>
> I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic
> differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for
> example.
>
> Fred Hazzard
> S/V Fury
> C 44
> Portland Or
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in
>> performance. PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around
>> the country, the 30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull
>> numbers over 600 seem to have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and
>> is 174 also). There may be exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat
>> (assuming it has not been modified in major ways) would prompt a review.
>> I’m not sure what one would do to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you
>> cut a bunch of weight off the keel – and that would decrease it’s
>> performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake rendezvous a couple months
>> ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very similar to my 593,
>> only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and some cabinet
>> doors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Nylander
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *David
>> Knecht via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:40 PM
>> *To:* CnC discussion list CnC 
>> *Cc:* David Knecht 
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
>>
>>
>>
>> I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at
>> least 10 years.  Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> S/V Aries
>>
>> 1990 C 34+
>>
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how
>> often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?
>>
>>
>>
>> The introduction in “the book” (
>> https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/)
>> says under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a
>> handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is
>> chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may
>> permit a more refined estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of
>> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
>> shows
>> that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust
>> based on local experience.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, how many of y’all do that?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sir,
>>
>>
>>
>> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
>>
>>
>>
>> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With
>> over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and
>> only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I
>> expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the
>> additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.
>> I have suggested that 

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

A friend of mine was chairman of the Western Long Island Sound PHRF 
committee, and he told me that across the country the PHRF committees 
give certain boats the same base rating, kind of yardstick boats, so to 
speak, so all the committees will be working to the same reference.  The 
C 35 Mk 1 is one of those, possibly the 30 Mk 1 is too.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 12/13/2019 7:33 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List wrote:
I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego 
for example.


Fred Hazzard
S/V Fury
C 44
Portland Or

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in
performance. PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking
around the country, the 30-1, from hull number 1 (on the
Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to have the same 174
handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has
not been modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not
sure what one would do to a 30-1 to increase performance unless
you cut a bunch of weight off the keel – and that would decrease
it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake rendezvous a
couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate
attachments and some cabinet doors.

Gary Nylander

*From:* CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> *On Behalf Of *David
Knecht via CnC-List
*Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:40 PM
*To:* CnC discussion list CnC mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
*Cc:* David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my
club in at least 10 years.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT




On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you
listers, how often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating
reviews and adjustments?

The introduction in “the book”
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/)
says under heading "Considerations when using this listing to
determine a handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the
initial handicap is chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical
analysis of performance may permit a more refined estimate of
its speed potential.”  And a review of

https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review
and adjust based on local experience.

So, how many of y’all do that?

Cheers,

Randy



On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Dear Sir,

RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79
 LISTED as Hull #7

I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of
your boat. With over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear
now, why your boat is so fast, and only right that your
rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I
expect the board will want to question you very carefully
about the additional changes to your boat over and above
the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that the
penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but
the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current
boat you have chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a
newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is
depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of
future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from the
PHRF board by the end of the month.

Regretfully, Lee

Yea, cold and wet in Seattle

On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via
CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Listers-

When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years
ago, I came to the conclusion she was hull number 7
laid up in September 1972, I think based on this old
post:

http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.

Meanwhile a discussion arose rec

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Fred Hazzard via CnC-List]

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for
example.

Fred Hazzard
S/V Fury
C 44
Portland Or

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in
> performance. PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around
> the country, the 30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull
> numbers over 600 seem to have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and
> is 174 also). There may be exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat
> (assuming it has not been modified in major ways) would prompt a review.
> I’m not sure what one would do to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you
> cut a bunch of weight off the keel – and that would decrease it’s
> performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake rendezvous a couple months
> ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very similar to my 593,
> only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and some cabinet
> doors.
>
>
>
> Gary Nylander
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *David
> Knecht via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:40 PM
> *To:* CnC discussion list CnC 
> *Cc:* David Knecht 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
>
>
>
> I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at
> least 10 years.  Dave
>
>
>
> S/V Aries
>
> 1990 C 34+
>
> New London, CT
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how
> often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?
>
>
>
> The introduction in “the book” (
> https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says
> under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a
> handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is
> chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may
> permit a more refined estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of
> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows
> that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust
> based on local experience.
>
>
>
> So, how many of y’all do that?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
>
>
> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
>
>
>
> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With
> over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and
> only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I
> expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the
> additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.
> I have suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF
> number, but the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat
> you have chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat,
> you would be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which
> is depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to
> the sport.  You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month.
>
>
>
> Regretfully, Lee
>
> Yea, cold and wet in Seattle
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Listers-
>
>
>
> When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the
> conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based
> on this old post:
> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html
> .
>
>
>
> Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group
> where a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping
> for clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore
> Yachts.  Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So
> the HIN format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972
> apparently didn’t include any digits indicating the month in which the hull
> was laid up.
>
>
>
> I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.
>
>
>
> Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says
> simply “30-1 1971N

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 

 

Gary Nylander

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of David Knecht via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:40 PM
To: CnC discussion list CnC 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at least 
10 years.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT








On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  

 

The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 

 

So, how many of y’all do that?

 

Cheers,

Randy





On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Dear Sir,

 

RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7

 

I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.

 

Regretfully, Lee   

Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 

 

On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Listers-

 

When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.

 

Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where a 
guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.

 

I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.

 

Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
“30-1 1971N”.

Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but hasn’t 
posted his HIN yet.

Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made 
in 1971.

Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 
boat.

Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.

The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard from 
here or in the Facebook group.

Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is CCY301231172 
(CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open until 
February 1976)

 

It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve 
learnt.

 

Cheers,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

Being on the Narragansett Bay PHRF Rating Committee I can state that we 
do review boat performance regularly (monthly meetings).I did not 
realize how difficult it is to rate boats ranging from the latest 
high-performance racers to 1919 Herreshoff S class boats.The committee 
consist of sailing professionals, sail makers, boat builders, engineer, 
statistician, and a 'good old boat' owner (me).


The committee, in an effort to keep the Narra. Bay PHRF rating rules 
relevant, compatible with other rule systems _and_ making PHRF more 
attractive to boats outfitted with cruising sails is modifying our rules 
for 2020. The most significant rules change is that ratings will be 
adjusted for all sails based on their actual sail area. This will 
account square-top and large roach mainsails, cruising spinnakers / 
undersized spinnakers and owners purchasing secondhand sails.Genoa 
adjustments were already based on area and the range of adjustment has 
been modified to better account for observed performance.


I have attached extract from Narragansett Bay PHRF documentation on how 
the committee functions and its guidelines.


Don Kern
Fireball, C 35 Mk2
Bristol, RI




PRINCIPLES OF PHRF OF NARRAGANSETT BAY reva.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Gulf Yachting Association PHRF committee meets quarterly utilizing a board
of 5 local handicappers.  They review new boats, rating revision requests,
by-laws, etc.  Pretty much everything PHRF.  They also conduct an annual
review.  Here's the link to all the info.

http://www.gya.org/?page_id=306

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 4:37 PM Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how
> often do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?
>
> The introduction in “the book” (
> https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says
> under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a
> handicap by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is
> chosen and the boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may
> permit a more refined estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of
> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows
> that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust
> based on local experience.
>
> So, how many of y’all do that?
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
>
> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With
> over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and
> only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I
> expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the
> additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.
> I have suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF
> number, but the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat
> you have chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat,
> you would be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which
> is depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to
> the sport.  You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month.
>
> Regretfully, Lee
> Yea, cold and wet in Seattle
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Listers-
>
> When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the
> conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based
> on this old post:
> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html
> .
>
> Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group
> where a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping
> for clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore
> Yachts.  Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So
> the HIN format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972
> apparently didn’t include any digits indicating the month in which the hull
> was laid up.
>
> I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.
>
> Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says
> simply “30-1 1971N”.
> Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but
> hasn’t posted his HIN yet.
> Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was
> made in 1971.
> Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a
> 1971 boat.
> Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
> The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard
> from here or in the Facebook group.
> Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is
> CCY301231172 (CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t
> open until February 1976)
>
> It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over
> the production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to
> what I’ve learnt.
>
> Cheers,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Our local PHRF (NC-PHRF) reviews (or at least looks at) the past year's racing 
results annually and hears appeals from racing skippers against other ratings 
or for their own rating. The committee is allowed and does make changes on 
their own as well at their 1st (of 4) meetings of the year, without necessarily 
having a rating protested. Further NC-PHRF is not based at any particular club 
but has representatives from all local clubs who have racers.
I think as a result, the local racing scene has about as reasonable a PHRF 
rating set as is possible for a single rating for all wind conditions. Of 
course there are boats that do better in light air and others who don't, mine 
included!  OTOH, in the 7-15 knots of wind, my 13,000 lb racer cruiser is 
competitive with boats of its size, including Beneteau 36.7, Chance 38, J-29, 
Sabre 362s, etc.
Of course I don't always come in on top, but I am close enough to be 
competitive in winds above 6 knots against boats with similar ratings.  It also 
took me several years to get my rating changed from its initial value of 92 in 
1996 to its current, reasonable rating in my view of 120--first moved to 95, 
then 102, then 111 and finally 120.
This is only true when my competition is has similar PHRFs and similar boats. I 
have no chance against Etchells who rate 120 locally or San Juan 21s who rate 
242--especially when the SJ21s ONLY come out to compete when the wind is light!
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom1995 C 36 XL/kcb






-Original Message-
From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
To: CnC discussion list CnC 
Cc: David Knecht 
Sent: Thu, Dec 12, 2019 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at least 
10 years.  Dave
S/V Aries1990 C 34+New London, CT


On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  
The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 
So, how many of y’all do that?
Cheers,Randy


On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Dear Sir,
RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.
Regretfully, Lee   Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 



On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Listers-
When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.
Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where a 
guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.
I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.
Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
“30-1 1971N”.Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he 
says, but hasn’t posted his HIN yet.Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 
30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made in 1971.Sean Dillon in the Facebook group 
owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 boat.Ed Levert on this list owned 
hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, 
an

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

On Lake Erie, PHRF ratings are assigned by PHRF-LE, not local clubs.  There are 
a few occasions where a club or organizing authority might assign a temporary 
rating, but “reviews and adjustments” to a base rating would be handled by 
PHRF-LE.  PHRF-LE made an across-the-board 3 seconds/mile adjustment a few 
years ago to bring Lake Erie’s numbers more in line with other PHRF 
organizations.  Aside from that, my experience is that reviews and adjustments 
are done unilaterally only when someone serving on the committee decides 
there’s an issue.  For example, the rating on my previous boat was adjusted in 
the off-season a number of years ago because one of the “measurers” from my 
local fleet (who also happened to be a competitor) decided to initiate the 
change and convinced his fellow committee members.  I wasn’t notified until the 
change had been made, so I had to appeal my new rating instead my direct 
competitor having to appeal my original rating (the way it is supposed to be 
done).  In my view, the system is highly susceptible to cronyism and mischief, 
so I am glad PHRF-LE does not routinely do reviews and adjustments.

From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 5:36 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?   

The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 

So, how many of y’all do that?

Cheers,
Randy



  On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  Dear Sir, 

  RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7 

  I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.

  Regretfully, Lee   
  Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 



On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Listers- 

When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.

Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group 
where a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.

I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.

Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says 
simply “30-1 1971N”.
Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but 
hasn’t posted his HIN yet.
Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was 
made in 1971.
Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 
1971 boat.
Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard 
from here or in the Facebook group.
Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is 
CCY301231172 (CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open 
until February 1976)

It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve 
learnt.

Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken

Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I am pretty sure that no review of ratings has been done at my club in at least 
10 years.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Dec 12, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often 
> do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  
> 
> The introduction in “the book” 
> (https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/ 
> ) says 
> under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
> by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
> boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
> estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
>  
> shows that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and 
> adjust based on local experience. 
> 
> So, how many of y’all do that?
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Sir,
>> 
>> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
>> 
>> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With 
>> over 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and 
>> only right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I 
>> expect the board will want to question you very carefully about the 
>> additional changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I 
>> have suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF 
>> number, but the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat 
>> you have chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, 
>> you would be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which 
>> is depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to 
>> the sport.  You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month.
>> 
>> Regretfully, Lee   
>> Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Listers-
>>> 
>>> When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
>>> conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based 
>>> on this old post: 
>>> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html 
>>> .
>>> 
>>> Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group 
>>> where a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping 
>>> for clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore 
>>> Yachts.  Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So 
>>> the HIN format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 
>>> apparently didn’t include any digits indicating the month in which the hull 
>>> was laid up.
>>> 
>>> I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.
>>> 
>>> Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says 
>>> simply “30-1 1971N”.
>>> Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but 
>>> hasn’t posted his HIN yet.
>>> Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was 
>>> made in 1971.
>>> Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 
>>> 1971 boat.
>>> Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
>>> The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard 
>>> from here or in the Facebook group.
>>> Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is 
>>> CCY301231172 (CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t 
>>> open until February 1976)
>>> 
>>> It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
>>> production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what 
>>> I’ve learnt.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Randy Stafford
>>> S/V Grenadine
>>> C 30 MK I #79
>>> Ken Caryl, CO
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> 

Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  

The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/ 
) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
 
shows that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust 
based on local experience. 

So, how many of y’all do that?

Cheers,
Randy

> On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7
> 
> I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
> 70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
> right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
> the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional 
> changes to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have 
> suggested that the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but 
> the monetary fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have 
> chosen to race.  Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would 
> be disinclined to perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is 
> depressing both the local fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the 
> sport.  You should hear from the PHRF board by the end of the month.
> 
> Regretfully, Lee   
> Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Listers-
>> 
>> When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
>> conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
>> this old post: 
>> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html 
>> .
>> 
>> Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where 
>> a guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
>> clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
>> Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
>> format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently 
>> didn’t include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.
>> 
>> I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.
>> 
>> Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
>> “30-1 1971N”.
>> Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but 
>> hasn’t posted his HIN yet.
>> Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was 
>> made in 1971.
>> Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 
>> boat.
>> Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
>> The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard 
>> from here or in the Facebook group.
>> Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is 
>> CCY301231172 (CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t 
>> open until February 1976)
>> 
>> It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
>> production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what 
>> I’ve learnt.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Randy Stafford
>> S/V Grenadine
>> C 30 MK I #79
>> Ken Caryl, CO
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray