Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Rather late to this thread. I must say that gfxCardStatus is excellent, useful way beyond Xcode. For me, by the way, Xcode itself doesn't cause the switch away from the integrated chipset, but the iOS simulator does. Anyone who cares about battery life (or a machine hot on the knees), I really suggest downloading this tiny utility. It's changed how I use my machine. e.g. now I only use Firefox if I really have to as it switches on the graphics card just by running, other programs I close down when I'm done with them because again, just having them up causes a graphics card switch. I've also noticed no real performance hit from forcing the machine into integrated graphics mode either, which is now my 'on battery' setting. On Aug 6, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Wade Tregaskis wrote: Well, one thing I just discovered in Xcode 4 and is already annoying me highly is that the app somehow uses CoreAnimation so that now, even though I'm running on battery, it forces the OS to use the Radeon video chipset instead of the integrated Intel's one, which is less power hungry. That is really not good as I go from having 7+ hours (theoretically) to 4+ hours. I'm going to fill a bug as I don't see any reason why Xcode needs to use fancy animations. That really defeats the purpose of having 2 video chipsets. Xcode's not the only developer tool that does (or at least, did do) this. The easiest workaround - which actually comes in handy at other times, too, so it's not bad at all - is to use gfxCardStatus, a free menu item that let's you manually control which GPU is used. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/rols%40rols.org This email sent to r...@rols.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Well, one thing I just discovered in Xcode 4 and is already annoying me highly is that the app somehow uses CoreAnimation so that now, even though I'm running on battery, it forces the OS to use the Radeon video chipset instead of the integrated Intel's one, which is less power hungry. That is really not good as I go from having 7+ hours (theoretically) to 4+ hours. I'm going to fill a bug as I don't see any reason why Xcode needs to use fancy animations. That really defeats the purpose of having 2 video chipsets. Xcode's not the only developer tool that does (or at least, did do) this. The easiest workaround - which actually comes in handy at other times, too, so it's not bad at all - is to use gfxCardStatus, a free menu item that let's you manually control which GPU is used. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
For those of you groaning about the switch to the much requested single window UI (that actually was almost possible in Xcode 3) I just have to ask; why do you need so many windows open at the same time with various files? Is it because you are coding ADD style (write a few lines in this file then jump to another one then a third), or are you perhaps coupling you classes so tightly together that that are really just one huge class with numerous files. :) Because if I'm looking at FooView I'm also looking at FooViewController and FooModel, and related class BarView, BarViewController, and BarModel, or maybe refactoring several sibling classes so that their common code is in their parent, which requires seeing all the related methods at once to tell what's common and what's not. I've been doing OOP longer than NSAnything has been around. Any non-trivial OOP system has lots of interconnected parts; being able to see all those parts is essential. (BTW, I'm not bitching about XCode4 anymore. I'm just not using it.) ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Well, I wouldn’t want to throw more oil on the fire, as the French saying goes, but, in my opinion, this looks like tycoons arguing about the color of their Ferraris or which Bordeaux grand cru (or whatever else). I used to be a Unix (NetBSD) developer, coding with vi(m), and managing projects with the BSD make, and so forth (I also used Qt3/4-Designer) – I still do that when fixing code for the ports I’m responsible of. I can insure you whatever flaws there may be in this or that version of Xcode, it is still a great coding environment: no need to keep track of methods or compilation errors on a separate sheet of paper, autocompletion is great, etc. And IB is also way ahead QT-Designer, for example. I understand ease of development is important; but what count most (IMO, always) is what the users think about your product. And Xcode UI has definitely no impact on this: Compiler and OS do. Even with the most beautiful and useful UI, a perfect code going through a compiler that insert thousand of useless assembler lines and a buggy OS is going to lead to a disastrous experience. With LLVM, Apple engineers have accomplished an amazing job of modernizing GCC and MacOS is a great OS to work on. That alone should make everybody happy. Vincent___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Le 25 juil. 2011 à 09:47, vincent habchi a écrit : Well, I wouldn’t want to throw more oil on the fire, as the French saying goes, but, in my opinion, this looks like tycoons arguing about the color of their Ferraris or which Bordeaux grand cru (or whatever else). Xcode is a tool we have to use all the day. This is not just a luxury product we don't need at all. I used to be a Unix (NetBSD) developer, coding with vi(m), and managing projects with the BSD make, and so forth (I also used Qt3/4-Designer) – I still do that when fixing code for the ports I’m responsible of. I can insure you whatever flaws there may be in this or that version of Xcode, it is still a great coding environment: no need to keep track of methods or compilation errors on a separate sheet of paper, autocompletion is great, etc. And IB is also way ahead QT-Designer, for example. I understand ease of development is important; but what count most (IMO, always) is what the users think about your product. And Xcode UI has definitely no impact on this: Compiler and OS do. Even with the most beautiful and useful UI, a perfect code going through a compiler that insert thousand of useless assembler lines and a buggy OS is going to lead to a disastrous experience. With LLVM, Apple engineers have accomplished an amazing job of modernizing GCC and MacOS is a great OS to work on. That alone should make everybody happy. Nice to know you don't care about how much time it take to code this great product you're talking about. When I spend much of my time fighting with the IDE, I can't be happy though. And FWIW, I don't care about which compiler version is sold with Xcode 4, it always lack behind my nightly build of clang I'm using in Xocde 3 for some time now. -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Le 24 juil. 2011 à 23:28, Ed Wynne a écrit : On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. How do you stop the cycle if that works? People who hate horrible MS Windows UIs file bugs against XC4, making XC5 have a normal Mac UI. Then people who like horrible MS Windows UIs will file bug against XC5, causing everything to revert back to its current state for XC6. Clearly this must be what happened with XC3, getting us to where we are now. Fill a report to ask a preference to choose between single Window UI and multiple windows UI. -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Salut Jean-Daniel, (It is always fun talking to other French speaking people in English :)) Xcode is a tool we have to use all the day. This is not just a luxury product we don't need at all. I disagree. You can still code any Apple application with vi, make, clang, dyld, ar, whatever else BSD tool and build your interface programmatically. That's we've being doing for years with the Xlib or Motif. And FWIW, I don't care about which compiler version is sold with Xcode 4, it always lack behind my nightly build of clang I'm using in Xocde 3 for some time now. So we agree there: clang is a great compiler! Bonne journée ! ;) Vincent___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Even if I would agree that the discussion is at the wrong list... :-)) I also dislike XCode 4 - but I do not see the problem. I am using XCode 3 to develop my stuff - and XCode 4 to e.g. transfer it to the App Store. Just install XCode 4 at a unique developer folder (e.g. developer4). Then install XCode 3 also at a unique developer folder (e.g. developer3). This way you can use both. The only problem I see is the NIB files which are not compatible with XCode 3 if created/modified by XCode 4. If working with XCode 4 I create/modify the NIBs therefor with the InterfaceBuilder of XCode 3. By the way: XCode seems to remove all older versions of the iOS kits if installing a newer XCode. It took me hours to download/install different versions of XCode, copy the iOS kit (e.g. iOS 3.2, iOS 4.1) to a different folder, installing the next version - and at the end putting all together. (As far as I know I need the older iOS kits to build test iOS apps with the Simulator and then to build and send to people with older devices.) ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Michael Swan wrote: Is it because you are coding ADD style (write a few lines in this file then jump to another one then a third), or are you perhaps coupling you classes so tightly together that that are really just one huge class with numerous files. Neither. Some of us work on more complex projects than others. That said, it looks like 4.1/4.2 address my complaints quite well. -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I don't know how this thread was started but, yeah, I don't like the Xcode 4. The reason is : - Requires too much scree real-estate Also, waste of screen real-estate - Different shortcut from those of Xcode 3 - Useless tool bar - Not flexible assistant editor Simple split view is better - Still lots of bugs Annoying bugs : [Bug 1] I reported this yesterday, but try to put an NSPathControl on an instance of NSWindow ( resource editor ) Make sure if your project is to be built for 10.6, for example. It will throw an error message saying that NSPathControl and NSPathControl cell are not available in Mac OS X prior to 10.5 [Bug 2] Prints out many Warning message saying that this and that property of widgets are not supported in Mac OS X prior to 10.5. Again, just like the Bug 1 case, the project is not built for pre-10.5 [Bug 3] Lots of memory usage - Just open Xcode 4.2, for example. Don't use Xcode 4 and just leave it as it is. - It will start to use lots of memory ( thus eats more HDD space due to increase of VM size or swap files. ) ( Is this because Xcode provide more features? I don't think so. ) [Bug 4] Error/Warning of previous built remains there sometimes. So, although it says Successfully built, it also shows red/yellow error/warning message. = this confuses a lot. [Enhancement Required] Use of contextual menu more wisely : to reveal the actual name of each project settings, contextual menu works better. I didn't understand where the feature was gone, and found under Editor menu. ( Why is it under Editor menu? ) Instead of using keyboard combination, it is better to use contextual menu to open a file into a new window/tab etc. Providing keyboard combination will work for some people, but also providing contextual menu for them will make things a lot easier How the search result is laid out Search result are source lines. To put those on the left most pane is not good idea. It is better to be laid out horizontally rather than vertically. Confined panes of debuggers Even Visual Studio 2010 allows users to detach panes to utilize multiple window or bigger window more well. I pointed the weak point of previous Visual Studio was MainFrame confined panes and children windows. Compared to that Xcode 3 was much better. I know how the initial and Xcode 2 was bad about user configuration. Even Project Builder was very confusing. However, Xcode 3 was very nice. Probably MS people acknowledged their shortcomings. But Xcode 4 went to the past instead of the future. Even though you can make one window filled with debug panes only, it is inconvenient to make existing window that way and open another window for source code, for example. It is much better to detach panes from existing one, if they really want to push one window approach. However, my point is why they give up already working, better approach delivered by Xcode 3? To people who uses All-in-one configuration only, they would think that Xcode 4 is same to Xcode 3!. But.. no. I have used its compact layout more, because it was more flexible especially when I needed to work with multiple projects. To name a few I have liked Xcode ( pre Xcode 4 ). I'm a long time Windows programmer while at the same time a Mac programmer. So, I have enough knowledge to compare the both. I really want Apple to make Xcode 4 make better. However, I also notice that there are many people who just like Xcode 4 because Apple made it. I don't like that kind of attitude. My 2 cents... JongAm Park ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Well, one thing I just discovered in Xcode 4 and is already annoying me highly is that the app somehow uses CoreAnimation so that now, even though I'm running on battery, it forces the OS to use the Radeon video chipset instead of the integrated Intel's one, which is less power hungry. That is really not good as I go from having 7+ hours (theoretically) to 4+ hours. I'm going to fill a bug as I don't see any reason why Xcode needs to use fancy animations. That really defeats the purpose of having 2 video chipsets. -Laurent. -- Laurent Daudelin AIM/iChat/Skype:LaurentDaudelin http://www.nemesys-soft.com/ Logiciels Nemesys Software laur...@nemesys-soft.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Oh... BTW who started this thread in cocoa-dev mailing list? It should be go to xcode-users! ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
That was brought up several times before and totally ignored. Dave On Jul 25, 2011, at 11:30 AM, JongAm Park wrote: Oh... BTW who started this thread in cocoa-dev mailing list? It should be go to xcode-users! ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/davedelong%40me.com This email sent to davedel...@me.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Le 25 juil. 2011 à 19:42, Nick Zitzmann a écrit : This is my main grievance with Xcode 4 as well, and really, it's the second time this has happened. The original Project Builder had an all-in-one view, and developers complained, so they added a CodeWarrior-like condensed view to Project Builder 2, only to take it out of Xcode 1. Developers complained again, and the condensed view came back in Xcode 2. Now it's gone again. Maybe if enough people complain about it, it'll come back in Xcode 5, I don't know… Every other major IDE uses an all-in-one view. And that why I prefer Xcode 3 over all other IDE I have to use (ItelliJ IDEA, Visual Studio, Eclipse, …) ;-) -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I agree that this is more appropriate on the Xcode list, but the overwhelming amount of agreement, and the fact that longtime users who know that this is a better fit for the Xcode list, continue to have the discussion anyway, communicates something. I find the actual interface to be a mixed bag; comments on both sides have been a bit hyperbolic at times. What's more of an issue are known bugs that keep things from building and/or running successfully. I feel that this is a large change to have not hammered at that stuff a bit more as far as the actual underpinning not being buggy (again, I'm not getting into the GUI debate), but then again, who hasn't had a deadline. It's too bad that the iCloud, Appstore, and various Lion features seem contingent upon Xcode 4+ builds, because it may have resulted in more time and a more stable development environment. It's noteworthy that many of the people frothing on about how wonderful the Xcode changes are, are either fairly new to Mac development, seemingly don't have commercial or professional output, or work at Apple (a bit of over-generalization here for sure). -gt That was brought up several times before and totally ignored. Dave On Jul 25, 2011, at 11:30 AM, JongAm Park wrote: Oh... BTW who started this thread in cocoa-dev mailing list? It should be go to xcode-users! -- George Toledo gtole...@gmail.com www.georgetoledo.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I had the same feeling at first, it seems that the 4.0 and then 4.1 updates were rush jobs…. -Laurent. -- Laurent Daudelin AIM/iChat/Skype:LaurentDaudelin http://www.nemesys-soft.com/ Logiciels Nemesys Software laur...@nemesys-soft.com On Jul 25, 2011, at 12:45, George Toledo wrote: I agree that this is more appropriate on the Xcode list, but the overwhelming amount of agreement, and the fact that longtime users who know that this is a better fit for the Xcode list, continue to have the discussion anyway, communicates something. I find the actual interface to be a mixed bag; comments on both sides have been a bit hyperbolic at times. What's more of an issue are known bugs that keep things from building and/or running successfully. I feel that this is a large change to have not hammered at that stuff a bit more as far as the actual underpinning not being buggy (again, I'm not getting into the GUI debate), but then again, who hasn't had a deadline. It's too bad that the iCloud, Appstore, and various Lion features seem contingent upon Xcode 4+ builds, because it may have resulted in more time and a more stable development environment. It's noteworthy that many of the people frothing on about how wonderful the Xcode changes are, are either fairly new to Mac development, seemingly don't have commercial or professional output, or work at Apple (a bit of over-generalization here for sure). ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On 25 jul 2011, at 11:16, Laurent Daudelin wrote: Well, one thing I just discovered in Xcode 4 and is already annoying me highly is that the app somehow uses CoreAnimation so that now, even though I'm running on battery, it forces the OS to use the Radeon video chipset instead of the integrated Intel's one, which is less power hungry. That is really not good as I go from having 7+ hours (theoretically) to 4+ hours. I'm going to fill a bug as I don't see any reason why Xcode needs to use fancy animations. That really defeats the purpose of having 2 video chipsets. Hm... I thought that we had fixed that particular issue. If you can reproduce this with Xcode 4.1, please file a bug report: http://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/ Thanks! j o a r ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Radar ID: 9835172. -Laurent. -- Laurent Daudelin AIM/iChat/Skype:LaurentDaudelin http://www.nemesys-soft.com/ Logiciels Nemesys Software laur...@nemesys-soft.com On Jul 25, 2011, at 19:59, Joar Wingfors wrote: On 25 jul 2011, at 11:16, Laurent Daudelin wrote: Well, one thing I just discovered in Xcode 4 and is already annoying me highly is that the app somehow uses CoreAnimation so that now, even though I'm running on battery, it forces the OS to use the Radeon video chipset instead of the integrated Intel's one, which is less power hungry. That is really not good as I go from having 7+ hours (theoretically) to 4+ hours. I'm going to fill a bug as I don't see any reason why Xcode needs to use fancy animations. That really defeats the purpose of having 2 video chipsets. Hm... I thought that we had fixed that particular issue. If you can reproduce this with Xcode 4.1, please file a bug report: http://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/ Thanks! j o a r ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
There are a lot of people who don't care for Xcode 4 for a variety of reasons: its different, its a one window interface, its missing support for 3rd party NIBs, etc… Personally at my company we all are pretty much in agreement that we love Xcode 4. Its not perfect. Its slower than it should be. Sometimes the mix of 1 window and individual windows can cause a problem that should not exist. Its search/replace has no way I can find to only search in groups. But overall we the interface, the schemes, the debugger, the compiler, etc… are massive improvements to our workflow. Yes it did take some time to get used to it and relearn how to do basic things. At first I hated Xcode 4's way of dealing with libraries because I'd spend literally days trying to get it to link static libs that used to be a breeze in Xcode 3. Its not a matter of computer should deal how I work and not me learning how it works because in the first place we learned how Xcode 3 worked, not how we worked and this is engineering after all. All that rambling to say that just like Lion, just because its different doesn't mean its bad. When I moved from Visual Studio to Xcode I didn't automatically think Xcode 3 sucked. Or when I used Eclipse, etc. There are reasons why Xcode 4 changed pretty much everything - because to move forward they had to break some eggs. On Jul 24, 2011, at 7:57 PM, Julie Seif wrote: Hi, all, I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. I found a rather handy post on how to uninstall Xcode 4. But my thing is, I won't be able to build apps that run on the latest version of the OS right? http://www.touch-code-magazine.com/uninstalling-xcode-4/ Everything I build in 4 seems to crash... but Xcode 3 it all works fine. I almost feel like Xcode 4 is like Windows Vista. in terms of badness. Thoughts, Recommendations, Suggestions? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Yes, Xcode 4 feels like a Windows app, not a Mac app. The idiotic modality it creates when all you want to do is create one file after another and leave each open to edit each as you do so, but instead it closes the one just opened prior, requiring you to go through unnecessary steps to reopen all the previously opened files precipitated both a bug and lots of emails to Apple executives and management. I suggest you do the same. It's almost as if the development team believes all developers use 11 Airs rather than the two-monitor 27 setup many prefer. - Gary L. Wade (Sent from my iPhone) On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Julie Seif juliethech...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, all, I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. I found a rather handy post on how to uninstall Xcode 4. But my thing is, I won't be able to build apps that run on the latest version of the OS right? http://www.touch-code-magazine.com/uninstalling-xcode-4/ Everything I build in 4 seems to crash... but Xcode 3 it all works fine. I almost feel like Xcode 4 is like Windows Vista. in terms of badness. Thoughts, Recommendations, Suggestions? Julie. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like this discussion would be much more appropriate on the Xcode Users list: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/xcode-users Cheers, Dave ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57, Julie Seif wrote: Hi, all, I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. I found a rather handy post on how to uninstall Xcode 4. But my thing is, I won't be able to build apps that run on the latest version of the OS right? http://www.touch-code-magazine.com/uninstalling-xcode-4/ Everything I build in 4 seems to crash... but Xcode 3 it all works fine. I almost feel like Xcode 4 is like Windows Vista. in terms of badness. Thoughts, Recommendations, Suggestions? Julie. This really made my day. It's pure phishing, but what I find so amusing is that as developers we don't get the lure of pron, or ... er ... manhood enhancement, we get phished with Xcode-uninstallation. That's beautiful. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Julie Seif wrote: I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. Hope this doesn’t sound patronizing, but: change happens, get used to it :) I felt the same way about the transition from Project Builder to Xcode, and before that from CodeWarrior to Project Builder (and before that to THINK C++, Lightspeed C, etc.) Some of these transitions really did feel like steps backwards (esp. CodeWarrior to Project Builder), but for the most part once I learned my way around the new IDE I liked it better. So far I am really, really enjoying Xcode 4’s UI — the assistant pane and the breadcrumb pop-ups are genius, I love having syntax checking as I type, and the target configuration editor is a lot smoother than before. I do wish it were less buggy, but I know that always takes a while to iron out with a totally new app of this complexity. —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On 2011-07-24, at 3:32 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Julie Seif wrote: I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. Hope this doesn’t sound patronizing, but: change happens, get used to it :) I felt the same way about the transition from Project Builder to Xcode, and before that from CodeWarrior to Project Builder (and before that to THINK C++, Lightspeed C, etc.) Some of these transitions really did feel like steps backwards (esp. CodeWarrior to Project Builder), but for the most part once I learned my way around the new IDE I liked it better. So far I am really, really enjoying Xcode 4’s UI — the assistant pane and the breadcrumb pop-ups are genius, I love having syntax checking as I type, and the target configuration editor is a lot smoother than before. I do wish it were less buggy, but I know that always takes a while to iron out with a totally new app of this complexity. —Jens___ I agree. Xcode 4 may have a slight learning curve and what seems to be a performance hit but it's worth it and will likely get even better. The new action triggers inside the debugger are pure freakin' gold. I haven't used NSLog() in weeks now. Patrick William Walker patrick.william.wal...@nb.sympatico.ca patrickwilliamwal...@yahoo.com will.wal...@unb.ca ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Alex Kac a...@webis.net 2011-07-24 13:31 wrote: 2011-07-25 20:22, Jeffrey Oleander wrote: Alex Kac a...@webis.net 2011-07-24 13:07 wrote: ...its a one window interface... This is a deal killer. Seeing things next to each other is vital. It's the reason we had to chop down so many trees in the olden days, for highly cross-referenced listings (even with tiny little laser print shrinking 2 older green-bar listing pages to one 8.5 by 11) to stretch out across conference tables next to each other. OK so Xcode can do that. Turn on the assistant, and click on a file to open. Then option click on another file... Alternating looking at tiny little bits of 2 files (like trying to look at a panoramic land-scape through a straw) is not remotely the same as looking at several files at the same time side by side. That's a good way to make mistakes, and burn up a lot of time hunting them down, later, because they're usually mistakes the compiler won't flag. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. - Gary L. Wade (Sent from my iPhone) ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Apparently you don't open more than two windows so there's your difference in point of view. Some people don't want to go through extra steps to do something that used to be easy and helpful. Ten times out of ten I want to place my windows where I want them, and I don't want my existing windows closed when I create or open a new file. - Gary L. Wade (Sent from my iPhone) On Jul 24, 2011, at 12:40 PM, Alex Kac a...@webis.net wrote: But as I said, you simply then tell Xcode to open two windows. I really don't see what the problem is here. It sounds more like you made up your mind to hate it and nothing else will change your mind. And I don't get how having one window that takes up the entire screen split into 2 is tiny little bits of 2 files. I don't use the 3rd pane on the right unless I need to. If I need more space I press CMD-0 and hide the navigator. Or in some cases I actually have Xcode open real windows. But I find the side-by-side assistant view to be what I need 9 times out of 10. And this is both on a MacBook Air 11'' (using it now) or my two 27'' LCD displays at the office. On Jul 24, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Jeffrey Oleander wrote: Alex Kac a...@webis.net 2011-07-24 13:31 wrote: 2011-07-25 20:22, Jeffrey Oleander wrote: Alex Kac a...@webis.net 2011-07-24 13:07 wrote: ...its a one window interface... This is a deal killer. Seeing things next to each other is vital. It's the reason we had to chop down so many trees in the olden days, for highly cross-referenced listings (even with tiny little laser print shrinking 2 older green-bar listing pages to one 8.5 by 11) to stretch out across conference tables next to each other. OK so Xcode can do that. Turn on the assistant, and click on a file to open. Then option click on another file... Alternating looking at tiny little bits of 2 files (like trying to look at a panoramic land-scape through a straw) is not remotely the same as looking at several files at the same time side by side. That's a good way to make mistakes, and burn up a lot of time hunting them down, later, because they're usually mistakes the compiler won't flag. Alex Kac - President and Founder Web Information Solutions, Inc. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. -- Francis Roberts ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Le 24 juil. 2011 à 20:46, Gary L. Wade a écrit : As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. Well, I would count myself as a relative novice to Xcode 4, but I have discovered that you can have multiple tabs in the main window and, if you want, you can tear off a tab into a separate window, close the navigator and inspector and have as many windows as you want open on the same project, with a different file in each. Joanna -- Joanna Carter Carter Consulting ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
This discussion is not appropriate for this forum. If you'd like to gripe about the changes in Xcode 4, please use a more appropriate forum, such as: - the Xcode Users list - http://bugreport.apple.com - http://devforums.apple.com This list is for technical discussions about the Cocoa and Cocoa Touch frameworks. Dave Sent from my iPhone ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 15:40, Alex Kac a...@webis.net wrote: But as I said, you simply then tell Xcode to open two windows. I really don't see what the problem is here. It sounds more like you made up your mind to hate it and nothing else will change your mind. This is the same ignorant argument made by lots of new-to-Mac people. The window needs to be tightly associated with its content, so that focus always goes to that window when focus is needed in that document. Xc4 fails miserably at this. It also needs to persist the window's state with the doc. Moreover, non-document windows also need to be separate. Try seeing documentation for the organizer window (at the same time) for example. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Yep, only if it felt as good as VS 2010 IDE, we would be having discussions on Cocoa and not the IDE. -tony -Original Message- From: Gary L. Wade Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:13 AM To: Julie Seif Cc: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4? Yes, Xcode 4 feels like a Windows app, not a Mac app. The idiotic modality it creates when all you want to do is create one file after another and leave each open to edit each as you do so, but instead it closes the one just opened prior, requiring you to go through unnecessary steps to reopen all the previously opened files precipitated both a bug and lots of emails to Apple executives and management. I suggest you do the same. It's almost as if the development team believes all developers use 11 Airs rather than the two-monitor 27 setup many prefer. - Gary L. Wade (Sent from my iPhone) On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Julie Seif juliethech...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, all, I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. I found a rather handy post on how to uninstall Xcode 4. But my thing is, I won't be able to build apps that run on the latest version of the OS right? http://www.touch-code-magazine.com/uninstalling-xcode-4/ Everything I build in 4 seems to crash... but Xcode 3 it all works fine. I almost feel like Xcode 4 is like Windows Vista. in terms of badness. Thoughts, Recommendations, Suggestions? Julie. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/tonyrom%40hotmail.com This email sent to tony...@hotmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Julie Seif wrote: I really do not like Xcode 4. I feel like I'm a beginner all over again in Xcode 4... I was just so comfortable to the Xcode 3 and previous releases of Xcode interface. I've been a light user of the development environment since NeXTStep 2.1, and I feel this is the most radical change I've experienced. It set my development efforts back a couple of weeks as I fixed things that had broken, figure out how to do things again, find where the build products were placed, and so on. It was at times very frustrating. But give it a few weeks. Play with it a lot, especially on experimental projects and workspaces (not a production code base), and generally explore. I found it grew on me after a while. I look forward to some in-depth books (or e-books) on working with and getting the most out of Xcode 4.x. Todd ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I have to come down strongly in favor of Xcode 4. I've only been using Apple's dev tools since ProjectBuilder (not Project Builder) but Xcode 4 is definitely the best since then. The built in IB, the ability to view your xib on one side and the related file's owner code on the other and then drag connect outlets and actions is awesome. Xcode 4 is new. It has some problems but it's getting better with each release. Apple is committed to it and it's what Apple uses so it will get even better. Honestly, I just do not see what is so appealing about Xcode 3. I've found some features missing (pre-compile for example would be nice to have back) but overall, Xcode 4 is much much better. It's almost as if the development team believes all developers use 11 Airs rather than the two-monitor 27 setup many prefer. I use a 27 iMac and an 11 MacBook Air. Lion makes Xcode on the 11 a useable tool. I can't imagine using Xcode 3 on the 11 Air. Change takes some getting used to and it takes time and a lot of folks don't have or don't want to spend the time. As far as I can remember though (Apple //e DOS 3 to ProDOS), Apple is acting as they always have. Xcode 3 is dead. Your next Mac won't run 10.6. Your PowerPC apps don't work anymore. That's how Apple rolls :::shrug::: Marc ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. Please don’t do that. It’s just going to annoy the people who have to triage the incoming bug reports. “I don’t like this feature” is not a bug report, it’s an opinion about the user interface. And believe me, there are already enough people inside Apple with strong, and divergent, opinions about UI. I’m not saying you should shut up; just that a different medium like a blog post or a WWDC feedback session would be more appropriate. —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. How do you stop the cycle if that works? People who hate horrible MS Windows UIs file bugs against XC4, making XC5 have a normal Mac UI. Then people who like horrible MS Windows UIs will file bug against XC5, causing everything to revert back to its current state for XC6. Clearly this must be what happened with XC3, getting us to where we are now. Except I don't remember any bug filing campaigns to organize people who love horrible MS Windows UIs... -Ed ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Ed Wynne wrote: People who hate horrible MS Windows UIs file bugs against XC4, making XC5 have a normal Mac UI. Then people who like horrible MS Windows UIs will file bug against XC5, causing everything to revert back to its current state for XC6. Clearly this must be what happened with XC3, getting us to where we are now. Except I don't remember any bug filing campaigns to organize people who love horrible MS Windows UIs... It’s not really a cycle. It’s that in the early days of OS X there were a lot of Mac developers who were used to IDEs like CodeWarrior and THINK C++ that opened a separate editor window for every file, and they complained about single-window UIs. So Apple added UI modes to Project Builder and Xcode to allow them to continue to work this way. Over time this has gotten to seem more and more like a legacy UI, and they’ve finally dropped it in Xcode 4. Calling this a “horrible MS Windows UI” is not only flamebait, it also shows you may not have been paying attention to the direction of Apple’s UI development over the past decade — many apps like iTunes, Mail, iPhoto, GarageBand, etc. have become strongly single-window oriented. Not to mention web browsers, which are now a dominant form of UI. (Also, I’m hardly an expert on all IDEs, but the non-Mac ones I’ve seen in the past few years, like Visual Studio and Eclipse, all seem to be pretty single-window-centric too.) —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
But, aren't we always asked to file feature requests in Bug Reporter? The feature request is this: Allow all those tiled views to be undocked as independent windows so that they can be moved around and sized freely. If you like them all stuck together, you can choose that style; if you don't, you aren't forced to do it. Makes everyone happy. On 2011-07-24, at 5:24 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. Please don’t do that. It’s just going to annoy the people who have to triage the incoming bug reports. “I don’t like this feature” is not a bug report, it’s an opinion about the user interface. And believe me, there are already enough people inside Apple with strong, and divergent, opinions about UI. I’m not saying you should shut up; just that a different medium like a blog post or a WWDC feedback session would be more appropriate. —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/dave.fernandes%40utoronto.ca This email sent to dave.fernan...@utoronto.ca Begin forwarded message: From: Ed Wynne ar...@phasic.com Subject: Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4? Date: 24 July, 2011 5:28:46 PM EDT To: cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. How do you stop the cycle if that works? People who hate horrible MS Windows UIs file bugs against XC4, making XC5 have a normal Mac UI. Then people who like horrible MS Windows UIs will file bug against XC5, causing everything to revert back to its current state for XC6. Clearly this must be what happened with XC3, getting us to where we are now. Except I don't remember any bug filing campaigns to organize people who love horrible MS Windows UIs... -Ed ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/dave.fernandes%40utoronto.ca This email sent to dave.fernan...@utoronto.ca ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. Please don’t do that. It’s just going to annoy the people who have to triage the incoming bug reports. “I don’t like this feature” is not a bug report, it’s an opinion about the user interface. And believe me, there are already enough people inside Apple with strong, and divergent, opinions about UI. I’m not saying you should shut up; just that a different medium like a blog post or a WWDC feedback session would be more appropriate. That's silly. Everyone at Apple always says, If it's not in Radar, we don't know about it. The decision makers aren't going to read your obscure little blog. And WWDC was sold out in one day; attendance is very limited. -Jeff ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Dave Fernandes wrote: But, aren't we always asked to file feature requests in Bug Reporter? The feature request is this: Allow all those tiled views to be undocked as independent windows so that they can be moved around and sized freely. If you like them all stuck together, you can choose that style; if you don't, you aren't forced to do it. Makes everyone happy. Sure, filing something as a feature request, rather than as “the way this works sucks and reminds me of Windows 3.1!!!”, would be productive. In this case, you’d need to explain what about your proposed feature would be different than the existing multiple-window UI you get by double-clicking an item in the navigator. —Jens ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
One of main problems I have with XCode 4 is the one window interface. While integrating IB made sense on some level, it also seems like if they're going to integrate IB, they should integrate editors for everything else (such as images). This is, of course, ludicrous. I'm a big believer in the philosophy of separate applications/tools for every job. Xcode 4 violates this philosophy by the integration of IB. Then again, I took part in writing Gorm (the GNUstep equivalent of IB), so I may be a bit biased about it going away. ;) GC On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Jeff Johnson publicpost...@lapcatsoftware.com wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Gary L. Wade wrote: As I mentioned before, everyone should go to bugreporter.apple.com and enter bugs against this horrible MS Windows method of UI that prevents usable viewing of multiple files that has been added to Xcode. Please don’t do that. It’s just going to annoy the people who have to triage the incoming bug reports. “I don’t like this feature” is not a bug report, it’s an opinion about the user interface. And believe me, there are already enough people inside Apple with strong, and divergent, opinions about UI. I’m not saying you should shut up; just that a different medium like a blog post or a WWDC feedback session would be more appropriate. That's silly. Everyone at Apple always says, If it's not in Radar, we don't know about it. The decision makers aren't going to read your obscure little blog. And WWDC was sold out in one day; attendance is very limited. -Jeff ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/greg_casamento%40yahoo.com This email sent to greg_casame...@yahoo.com -- Gregory Casamento - GNUstep Lead/Principal Consultant, OLC, Inc. yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: That's silly. Everyone at Apple always says, If it's not in Radar, we don't know about it. The decision makers aren't going to read your obscure little blog. The engineers say that. The decision makers about UI tend not to be engineers, and don’t pay much attention to Radar. (I’m not saying that’s a good thing, just that it’s how things happen at Apple. The UI designers there work in an extremely strong echo-chamber.) I don’t know that there is any effective way to get Apple to reconsider a UI. What seems to get the most results is to have a big enough critical mass of people yelling that they dislike it (on blogs, Twitter, forums, whatever) that it makes it into the press, which then might start to seem significant to Apple designers managers. For instance, one instance where this worked was with the orientation vs. mute switch on the iPad. —Jens___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
How many debugger windows/panes do you want open at a time? I can tell you how many I want and need: 1. I can only debug one app, why should I have 7? All interfering with my editing? I have tabs containing the current set of files that I am editing. Every one of them has an open debugger pane in it… So, I tried the trick with behaviours, assigning debugging to a special tab. Sure it seems to work, but it doesn’t. I still get debugger panes crowding out my editing windows. Worse, I might be editing a file on the far left tab. When I do a test run, it switches to the debug tab on the far right… now, which was the file I was editing? Because when the test has completed, I am left in the debugger tab… With Xcode 3, the last file I was editing was the one directly below the debugger window… UI disaster. Karl ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Karl Goiser wrote: So, I tried the trick with behaviours, assigning debugging to a special tab. Sure it seems to work, but it doesn’t. I still get debugger panes crowding out my editing windows. Make sure you also turn off the other settings in Run* behaviors, or they will modify your current tab when you start debugging. For example if you have Show tab [Debugging] and [Show] debugger with [Current Views] both turned on, then you will get a debugging tab in the last state that you set it in, and the current tab will show the debugger with whatever state you left it in. Worse, I might be editing a file on the far left tab. When I do a test run, it switches to the debug tab on the far right… now, which was the file I was editing? Because when the test has completed, I am left in the debugger tab… With Xcode 3, the last file I was editing was the one directly below the debugger window… Feel free to report a bug asking for new tabs to be opened next to the current tab instead of at the end of the tab list (assuming that is what you want). -- David Duncan ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Hi David, On 25/07/2011, at 8:44 AM, David Duncan wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Karl Goiser wrote: So, I tried the trick with behaviours, assigning debugging to a special tab. Sure it seems to work, but it doesn’t. I still get debugger panes crowding out my editing windows. Make sure you also turn off the other settings in Run* behaviors, or they will modify your current tab when you start debugging. For example if you have Show tab [Debugging] and [Show] debugger with [Current Views] both turned on, then you will get a debugging tab in the last state that you set it in, and the current tab will show the debugger with whatever state you left it in. Nope, all others turned off. It’s when I pause the run. I have only changed the ‘run starts’ behaviour... Worse, I might be editing a file on the far left tab. When I do a test run, it switches to the debug tab on the far right… now, which was the file I was editing? Because when the test has completed, I am left in the debugger tab… With Xcode 3, the last file I was editing was the one directly below the debugger window… Not talking about a new tab. I’m talking about editing a file, then testing it. The behaviour moves me to the debug tab, but because the tabs are all next to each other, not layered windows, you don’t have an indication of the ‘last tab’ you were at, which it what is lost in moving from a windowed to a tabbed environment… Still, what’s the use of more than one debugging environment? Regards, Karl ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I also had concerns re the changes, no-one likes their main work apps changed, for unknown reasons. But there are reasons, and if you watch the WWDC vids on Xcode you will learn how to make the most of these changes and why Apple has made this change. Mastering Schemes in Xcode 4 Mastering Source Control in Xcode 4 Maximizing Productivity in Xcode 4 are good. cheers Kevin___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Another cool point of XCode 4 is in fact the Souce Control, using git by start is amazing, and being able to commit (and also edit files while commiting) is really awesome. In really new and started with XCode in the end times of XCode 3, I used XCode 3 just for a few weeks and them XCode 4 was released. I really prefer XCode 4 than 3, its awesome. --- Wilker Lúcio http://about.me/wilkerlucio/bio Kajabi Consultant +55 81 82556600 On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Kevin Bracey ke...@ilike.co.nz wrote: I also had concerns re the changes, no-one likes their main work apps changed, for unknown reasons. But there are reasons, and if you watch the WWDC vids on Xcode you will learn how to make the most of these changes and why Apple has made this change. Mastering Schemes in Xcode 4 Mastering Source Control in Xcode 4 Maximizing Productivity in Xcode 4 are good. cheers Kevin___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/wilkerlucio%40gmail.com This email sent to wilkerlu...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Karl Goiser wrote: Hi David, On 25/07/2011, at 8:44 AM, David Duncan wrote: On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Karl Goiser wrote: So, I tried the trick with behaviours, assigning debugging to a special tab. Sure it seems to work, but it doesn’t. I still get debugger panes crowding out my editing windows. Make sure you also turn off the other settings in Run* behaviors, or they will modify your current tab when you start debugging. For example if you have Show tab [Debugging] and [Show] debugger with [Current Views] both turned on, then you will get a debugging tab in the last state that you set it in, and the current tab will show the debugger with whatever state you left it in. Nope, all others turned off. It’s when I pause the run. I have only changed the ‘run starts’ behaviour… If you change all of them, it should stop the behavior your seeing. I just have Run starts/pauses/generates output/exits unexpectedly set to show my debugging tab and to do nothing else. Run completes does nothing at all. -- David Duncan ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
I think that we need to differentiate between the new features that could easily have been put into Xcode 3, and the changes that have been made (to my mind) to wreck a great UI. Schemes and Git and the like do not justify the damage… Why would I want to see Interface Builder objects when I am editing source code (like I can in Xc4)? Why do I have to choose only one inspector at a time? Why can’t I see a project and a search and/or issues navigator at the same time? In order to get to the project information, why do I have to first open a project navigator, then click on the rot level of the tree? (The doesn’t seem very intuitive). Why is it that when I want want to change some settings about the app that I am testing (like whether to use GDB or LLDB or change some of the diagnostics), I have to go and edit a scheme (hidden away in a menu item, just like an issue that Apple uses to justify changing from Xc3 to 4…). Surely, it makes sense to put this sort of stuff in the UI with the project and target information? This what I think: ‘I need to add a malloc check. I’ll go to the project setting for this. No, hang on a minute, Apple has hidden this stuff elsewhere. I’ll go and have a look in the scheme area that I get to via that obscure menu item…’ I really don’t know how anybody expects people to write insanely brilliant use interfaces when they use one that borrows its cues from the ‘80s. Karl ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
Someone finally gets it! @Karl Goiser. Can anyone recommend where I can read up on (not something lengthy please) or watch how to make Xcode 4 work? Also, is there anyway I could create my app in Xcode 3.2.6 and then some how open it up in Xcode 4 and do the final build in there so that it works for the latest iOS? Any help would be overly appreciated. Julie. On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Karl Goiser li...@goiser.com wrote: I think that we need to differentiate between the new features that could easily have been put into Xcode 3, and the changes that have been made (to my mind) to wreck a great UI. Schemes and Git and the like do not justify the damage… Why would I want to see Interface Builder objects when I am editing source code (like I can in Xc4)? Why do I have to choose only one inspector at a time? Why can’t I see a project and a search and/or issues navigator at the same time? In order to get to the project information, why do I have to first open a project navigator, then click on the rot level of the tree? (The doesn’t seem very intuitive). Why is it that when I want want to change some settings about the app that I am testing (like whether to use GDB or LLDB or change some of the diagnostics), I have to go and edit a scheme (hidden away in a menu item, just like an issue that Apple uses to justify changing from Xc3 to 4…). Surely, it makes sense to put this sort of stuff in the UI with the project and target information? This what I think: ‘I need to add a malloc check. I’ll go to the project setting for this. No, hang on a minute, Apple has hidden this stuff elsewhere. I’ll go and have a look in the scheme area that I get to via that obscure menu item…’ I really don’t know how anybody expects people to write insanely brilliant use interfaces when they use one that borrows its cues from the ‘80s. Karl ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/juliethechang%40gmail.com This email sent to juliethech...@gmail.com -- ___ Julie Seif lovehatecreate.net All I want is to fly away, be free, move on, and love the people who really do love me. We aren't dealing with just a girl here, we are dealing with a girl who desprately and hopelessly wants to be free. That's why I picked part of your world for you to sing and in the end the amount of emotion you put in it from all the suffering you've dealt with these few months, proved I made an excellent choice. You NAILED IT! - Mr. Black. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Julie Seif juliethech...@gmail.com wrote: Also, is there anyway I could create my app in Xcode 3.2.6 and then some how open it up in Xcode 4 and do the final build in there so that it works for the latest iOS? Xcode 4 projects are compatible with the latest Xcode 3. Schemes and workspaces exist independently. So you can do work in Xcode 3 and then switch to Xcode 4 to build, test, and submit. --Kyle Sluder ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Does anyone else dislike Xcode 4?
First off I will echo what a few others have said already and I'm sure a moderator will say fairly soon; this list is for the discussion of the Cocoa and Cocoa Touch APIs not the tools commonly used to develop using said APIs. There are forums and an Xcode users list that are appropriate for such discussions. For those of you groaning about the switch to the much requested single window UI (that actually was almost possible in Xcode 3) I just have to ask; why do you need so many windows open at the same time with various files? Is it because you are coding ADD style (write a few lines in this file then jump to another one then a third), or are you perhaps coupling you classes so tightly together that that are really just one huge class with numerous files. :) If you really want lots of open files for you project check out SubEthaEdit, (http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/) it is a text editor designed for code of all flavors and can have either one window with tabs or multiple windows. It even has buttons to trigger builds in Xcode so you don't have to switch apps to build. You can close all of those extra bits that creep into the window, like the navigator/issues/etc area, debugger area, and detail/inspector area. The manual has the shortcuts listed. The bottom of the inspector area also has a code snippets section that you can add custom snippets that you can later drag into code (complete with tokens) in addition to the IB section (it also has a file template library that you can drag templates over to the navigation area if you don't want to use the new file assistant). On 25 Jul, 2011, at 12:50 AM, cocoa-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: Can anyone recommend where I can read up on (not something lengthy please) or watch how to make Xcode 4 work? There are actually several Xcode 4 documents on the developer site, there is even one specifically for transitioning from Xcode 3 to Xcode 4 (called 'Xcode 4 Transition Guide'). I know these constitute manuals and engineers don't read those but a couple hours reading the manual could save you lots of time and frustration later when you can't find something and just assume that the feature doesn't exist. Check the Tools Language section of the developer library for a complete list of Xcode related documents. :) These resources are in addition to the WWDC videos that have been mentioned already, and I am sure there will be numerous blog posts in the near future. Also, is there anyway I could create my app in Xcode 3.2.6 and then some how open it up in Xcode 4 and do the final build in there so that it works for the latest iOS? Yes, you won't get the new shinny bit of Lion that way, but you can write your entire app in Xcode 3 and then open the project in Xcode 4 just to build. I have used this for the Core Data prototyping tool that is currently MIA in Xcode 4 (yes, feature request has been filed, during WWDC actually). I have successfully opened projects in 3 4 going back and forth (mine are generally pretty small compared to most I think) without issue. Also, please notice the quote below, not sure who said it, but it is totally true. Mike Swan ETCP Certified Entertainment Electrician http://theMikeSwan.com http://www.michaelsswan.com Change itself is not painful it is resistance to change that causes pain. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
