RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi all,
everybody interested in this discussion to go on is
invited to join groups.yahoo.com/group/os4u.
I will post the summary of past discussion here as
soon as I complete it, but I think this list is not
appropriate to carry on with this topic.
Regards,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> >But if you use schema-based storage, you can have your XML 
> internally 
> >stored
> >into SQL tables. And XPath queries are rewritten (yes yes!) into
> >corresponding
> >SQL equivalent.
> 
> That's on the feature list, but is it implemented yet? If so, 
> where? In XSU?

Oracle 9iR2 (yes R2 makes the difference).

 
> The only examples I can find on this are ones where the table 
> has already 
> been defined and you're just loading a chunk of XML. That 
> doesn't seem like 
> "schema-based" storage, as Oracle isn't even touching the DTD 
> or XSD. It's 
> just doing a direct mapping of an XML document into an object.

Either the mapping is deduced from the schema.
Or you can annotate the schema in order to customize the mapping
(providing tables names, column names, SQL types).

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Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Bertrand Delacretaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > On Thursday 15 August 2002 18:41, David
Trammell
> wrote:
> > Couldn't this be discussed somewhere else...,
> Please
> 
> Yes, yes, please!!
> 
> Maybe you want to open a discussion group on
> yahoogroups for this, or a 
> discussion page on www.quicktopic.com. Both are easy
> and quick.
You are right, even if many like this kind of
discussion it got out of bounds regarding this list. I
will answer privately to those I've not answered
before and the only one next post from me with this
topic will be a summary for anobody interested and
link to group elsewhere for possible further
discussions.
HTH,
Peter.

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Re: sexy open source

[Josema Alonso]

Hi, All.
>...
> * Regression Testing:
>   JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
>   JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
>   JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
>...

I haven't seen testing frameworks for web applications mentioned, and maybe
it would be good to add these too:
Canoo Web Test (http://webtest.canoo.com/)
Anteater (http://aft.sourceforge.net/)
Cactus (http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/)

Best.



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Re: sexy open source

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Thursday 15 August 2002 18:41, David Trammell wrote:
> Couldn't this be discussed somewhere else..., Please

Yes, yes, please!!

Maybe you want to open a discussion group on yahoogroups for this, or a 
discussion page on www.quicktopic.com. Both are easy and quick.

This would help keep this list focused.
-- 
 Bertrand Delacrétaz (codeconsult.ch, jfor.org)

 buzzwords: XML, java, XSLT, cocoon, mentoring/teaching/coding.
 disclaimer: eternity is very long. mostly towards the end. get ready.






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Re: sexy open source

[David Trammell]

Couldn't this be discussed somewhere else..., Please

Vegan Portal wrote:

> Hi cocooners,
> Now that I have your attention, I would like to
> discuss the ideal of non-compromised development of
> full-blown, stable, scallable and manageable
> applications with open-source only and how far one
> could get to fulfill this. It is probably little OT on
> this list, but I think a bunch of very open-minded and
> progressive folks is here, so I hope I could get some
> discussion going.
> I think many of you have reached some status quo which
> could be of great service to all the newcomers.
> Nevertheless, everybody is probably tired of yet
> another bugs, yet another unanswered questions, yet
> another everyday technology-related problems and there
> is no end to this. But I have a faith that there is
> some solution that could be achieved with open source
> and it waits to be discovered.
> It starts with what one wants to achieve. For me, it
> is secure content-centric multi-user roles web portal,
> with professional design, able to serve without
> interruption even by ongoing changes and high user
> traffic. But I think the framework I'd like to propose
> here may be universal enough to be equally worth also
> for many other means.
> If you got so far with me, I'd like to start being
> concrete:
> 1) Operating system
> Proposal: Linux
> Remarks: One could discuss the distributions or other
> Unix derivates here, but I think it's irrelevant for
> further points.
> 2) Programming language
> Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> may still take some time to be able to be used for
> production sites. Moreover, many open source
> technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> if I'm wrong.
> 3) Application framework
> Proposal: JBoss 3.x
> Remarks: This is worth discussion, as many of you use
> iPlanet or don't use any J2EE or related technologies
> at all. I think JBoss is good for achieving
> scallability for the site. What concrete parts of
> JBoss are involved, is very OT here.
> 4) Business Logic Persistence
> Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next good
> candidate could be PostgreSQL - with more user
> support, so maybe better solution. Any ideas?
> 5) Web container
> Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> Remarks: I know Tomcat is more used, but Jetty is
> easier to be integrated into JBoss and both offer
> similar if not same functionality. This is a point I
> would like to discuss further.
> 6) Content Persistence
> Proposal: stand-alone XIndice
> Remarks: This component should be used only for
> content without business logic, outside J2EE, for
> example for simple static content editing templates
> and external content syndicate subscription. Simply
> for everything that's too light to be served by deep
> application logic. Did anybody use it already? That's
> a question.
> 7) Content Framework
> Proposal: Cocoon, what else :)
> Remarks: The task of Cocoon is to separate Logic from
> Design, what it should be good at. I want to get more
> detailed here: Starting with structured XSP,
> xincluding or transforming (what is better?) parts of
> final site together, using taglib logicsheets for
> access to business logic that is delegated to J2EE
> (did anybody here got it working?), other taglib for
> content persistence and yet other for reused content
> elements. The XSP should contain as little Java as
> possible, all hrefs should be good organized with
> sitemap and XForm could be used for user inputs (are
> we so far?). XSP should somehow incorporate JAAS from
> JBoss for user authorisation to access the documents
> (anybody tried this?) The result of multiple
> transformations is then complete site as XML, that is
> further processed using XSLT to incorporate the design
> and graphics and serialized to appropriate end format.
> If possible, all the vector design elements should be
> dynamically created using SVG (anybody?), page should
> be somehow cacheable for better response times (???)
> and the final result should be optimized for several
> types of client (is DELI of use here?) and/or
> serialized to PDF (do I expect too much?). The
> workflow by creating the content can be following:
> After initial discussion between involved parties,
> dummy working XSP/XSL is/are created, possibly reusing
> already available static elements from taglibs. Then,
> database/J2EE developers work on filling it with
> propper dynamic data, content writers type in
> internationalized static texts and designers are
> parallel creating more mature XSL, icons, SVG and thin
> client customizations. Working adjustments are posted
> to versioning system without injuring established
> interfaces to other team members. Final version
> emerges and the team could proceed to other page.
> Seems like heaven to me, but i

RE: sexy open source

[Mike Haarman]

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Hunsberger, Peter wrote:

> I'm slowly starting to see a generalized architecture fall out of the work
> we do.  It's rather different from what seems to be a main thrust of Cocoon
> (XSP), and it may be worth outlining:

It is.

> This architecture exploits the functional programming model of XSLT and uses
> meta-data to essentially create rules about how to resolve and render the
> current object tree.  If you "get" functional programming you will see that
> this keeps the basic processing model pretty simple and eliminates
> non-standard processing extensions (read XSP) from the flow.  If you get
> stuck on procedural approaches and can't see how you'd ever give up your
> logic sheets you'll be missing much of the power of XML and XSLT in my
> opinion.

Hear, hear!  Well said.


Mike Haarman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> 
> Honestly, I went through stjude.org, nice idea, but if
> you'd decipher my nick, I'm quite uncomfortable with
> basic research exploiting animals with little or no
> actual use at all for all those unfortunate children -
> probably dictated by industry-driven NCI and others. I
> hope you work to catalogize only really valuable
> clinical research e.g. non-invasive statistical
> environment observation to help to discover most
> valuable prevention possibilities. Worth a quarrel
> between us...
> Moreover, I'm (fortunatelly) not the one giving money
> out here. Nevertheless, although miles away, you are
> looking like to be a suitable consultant for us with
> enough spare time. Wait till I discuss your possible
> involvement with those sitting on cash, then I'll
> contact you directly. Quick but informed expertise is
> awaited.
> 

I realize this is very far off topic, but this is important so please bear
with me: I think you may have misinterpreted what St. Jude does.  It is the
leading institution in the world for research into Childhood diseases.
Everyone that is treated here is treated regardless of their ability to pay,
often for free.  If you ever get a chance to see a 3 year old kid with
operational scars all over their head, attached to an chemo IV drip looking
as happy as can be because they've had just one more month to live you will
never, ever, again feel sorry for the sacrifice of some animal in the name
of clinical research.  Most of these kids would not have a chance to live at
all if it where not for St. Jude; we are now tracking 30 year survivors.
Basic research is critical to the 1000's of children that we treat each
year.  Yes many animals may die in related experiments.  They will do so
painlessly and humanely.  Many children will also die because we have not
yet figured out how to save them. The clinical research is invasive, dirty,
hands on real life medical research; that's the way lives are saved.

> Going on 

Yes please... [snip]

> You mean J2EE was too big calibre for your
> requirements but after you got into it, you wanted not
> to give up on possible features? 

In this particular case we probably won't have to scale to the point that we
really need most J2EE features for another year or so.  We could have held
off on the J2EE learning curve until the rest of the application was more
mature and stable. In particular, when you realize that many of our
developers are contract and that they will have moved on by the time we
really need the J2EE features.  We paid to educate them on something we
didn't necessarily need at the time.  OTOH, we did get a core group of
developers up the learning curve and we now have a running J2EE system to
eliminate most of the learning curve for new developers.

> Accepted. Seems like solutions implemented in Cocoon
> are, at this stage of Cocoon in general, hardly
> universal enough to be taken over (even in part) by
> another business models. That's the deal, I think.
> Cocoon is easy to customize, but then it is hard to
> find reusable patterns, till some next evolution
> comes. 

I'm slowly starting to see a generalized architecture fall out of the work
we do.  It's rather different from what seems to be a main thrust of Cocoon
(XSP), and it may be worth outlining:

1) exploit the ability of Cocoon to chain transformations together and
separate transformations into separate passes of object assembly and output
rendering;

2) separate and encapsulate the differing concerns of handling the
application work flow into well defined XML: request parameters; application
information (session level); object metadata specific to the current
context; object data specific to the current instance.  Use aggregation
(conceptually within a single generator, or explicitly within the sitemap,
exploiting caching) to combine these for the object assembly pass.

3) resolve (using XSLT) the combined application state data, session state
data, request state data, object meta-data and object data based on the
users current authorization into an abstract object tree populated with all
information required to generate any output.

4) render the object tree to the currently required output format.

This architecture exploits the functional programming model of XSLT and uses
meta-data to essentially create rules about how to resolve and render the
current object tree.  If you "get" functional programming you will see that
this keeps the basic processing model pretty simple and eliminates
non-standard processing extensions (read XSP) from the flow.  If you get
stuck on procedural approaches and can't see how you'd ever give up your
logic sheets you'll be missing much of the power of XML and XSLT in my
opinion.

We didn't start out with architected XML for each of these concerns and so
hadn't thought about when and how to persist each of these pieces of
information in a standard way.  By instead architecting ways to explicitly
handle the differing dimensions of inform

RE: sexy open source

[Artur Bialecki]

If it Portgresql supported the CONNECT BY statement
I would move to it today.

Artur...

> -Original Message-
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:17 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: sexy open source
>
>
>
> My experience also shows that Postgresql is a good database.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Antonio Gallardo Rivera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: sexy open source
>
>
> I recommend you try PostgreSQL.
>
> El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:11, Argyn Kuketayev escribió:
> > subj was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source"
> > RDBMS comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
> >
> > Ok, Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed.
> >
> > business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and
> > features.
> >
> > Cocoon is sexy too, btw
> > jBoss is not.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Manos Batsis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: sexy open source
> >
> >
> > Argyn,
> >
> > Err... the subject says "open source".
> >
> > I don't think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what
> > doesn't, so I just won't.
> >
> > Manos
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:05 PM
> > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> > Subject: RE: sexy open source
> >
> >
> >
> > RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> > cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> > while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> > better than anything.
> >
> > > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> >
> > jBoss sucks, imho.
>
> -
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Version Control System // was Re: sexy open source

[MJ Ray]

Andreas Hochsteger wrote:
> * Version Control System:
>   CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
>   Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)

Also:
Arch http://www.regexps.com/arch.html (star-merge, distributed projects)
Aegis http://aegis.sf.net/ (optional testing integration, distributed)
OpenCM http://www.opencm.org/ (I don't know enough of this)
PRCS http://prcs.sf.net/ (XDelta-based, single-server, I think)

Any other options and opinions on these?

-- 
MJR|
---'
|-[ Luminas internet applications http://www.luminas.co.uk/ ]-|

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Re: sexy open source

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Why don't forget that you need Jakarta POI to output to Excel or the 
HSSF Serializer for Cocoon.  ;-)

-Andy

Vegan Portal wrote:

>Hi Andreas,
> --- Andreas Hochsteger
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >
>  
>
>>* UML Modeling:
>>  ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org/)
>>* Version Control System:
>>  CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
>>  Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)
>>* IDE:
>>  Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)
>>  Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/)
>>* Job Scheduling:
>>  Quartz (http://www.part.net/quartz.html)
>>* Workflow Management (continued):
>>  OSWorkflow
>>(http://www.opensymphony.com/osworkflow/)
>>* Search Engine:
>>  Apache Lucene (http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/)
>>* Regression Testing:
>>  JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
>>  JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
>>  JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
>>* Build Framework:
>>  Ant (http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/)
>>  Krysalis Centipede
>>(http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/)
>>* Project Site Management:
>>  Apache Forrest (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/)
>>
>>
>Thank you for jumping in!
>Almost all of your proposals I know already, some are
>on my (getting long) task list to download and test
>out. All are probably of great use to establish open
>source based development company. I've kept them out
>in my initial post, because it would be twice that
>long mentioning them.
>Some Remarks:
>ArgoUML seems to be dead as open source, evolving to
>free and/or commercial Poseidon edtions available at
>www.gentleware.com. Nevertheless, it is probably the
>most evolved (almost) freely available UML engine with
>some very interesting features (critiques, for
>example) not available elsewhere. Even in free
>edition, it produces XMI, that could be further
>processed with open source to generate DB, EJBs and
>documentation. That's why I've mentioned it. Getting
>little angry here, I just don't understand why open
>www.omg.org specifications don't go also open or free
>regarding their implementation in leading products
>like Together, Rational or Embarcadero, just to get
>more customers for consulting, the key concept behind
>sale of open source. That's why I recommend free yer
>lame Poseidon, because I think the UML-based
>engineering is of great use in almost every serious
>project.
>Regarding Lucene, I'm definitely eager to use it as
>advanced search engine in Cocoon, I hope it easy to be
>integrated.
>I had not to do any testing so far, but I'll
>definitelly have to look at engines proposed from you
>above, regarding how far are they able to benchmark
>various possible Cocoon configurations and placement
>inside oher frmeworks.
>
>  
>
>>If I find some more projects in my huge unmanaged
>>link mail folder I'll let 
>>you know ;-)
>>
>>
>Well, I thought I'm quite experienced with actual open
>source roadmap, but I see there are many applications
>I was not aware of, so keep on posting your proposals,
>possibly with short comment on them.
>Eager for your next responses,
>Peter.
>
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Re: sexy open source

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
> Hey, come on,  today is offtopic day! See all these messages fly? None 
> of them are Cocoon related ;-P

In that case in response to a previous posted, I'd like to offer this gem:

EJBs in factwellthey suck.

-Andy


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Re: sexy open source

[Andreas Hochsteger]

Hi!

On Donnerstag, 15. August 2002 4:53, Vegan Portal wrote:
>  --- "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >
>
> > Since we are talking about add-on projects, I would
> > vote for Wyona CMS
> > project; a content management system that sits on
> > top of Cocoon.
> > http://www.wyona.org
>
> Well, there's also DBPrism as an extension to Cocoon
> but I want to know if anybody here is succesfully
> employing them for production.

As I understand DBPrism it thought for Oracle only and thus not a candidate 
for a totally free Open Source business environment.

> As my current project involves content management done
> by about 2000 authorized users, I'll definitely take a
> look at Wyona!

Wyona is very promising because it aims to support open XML standards 
everywhere possible (eg. XACML for access controlling, RCML for revision 
controlling, CMML for content management, ...).
There is also some work done with other Open Source CMS to develop some CMS 
standards and APIs which allow one to use the CMS of your choice and easily 
replace the systems. If you're more interested take a look at the OSCOM (Open 
Source Content Management) Website (http://www.oscom.org/). The next 
conference will be held on September in Berkeley. I'm too sorry that I missed 
the first one in Zurich (Switzerland) which would not be too far away from 
Vienna. But there are video streams from the speakers available 
(http://oscms.bitflux.ch/).

> WebMacro or WebEditor were of no use for me, so I'm
> eager to discover other possibilities for Cocoon-based
> CMS.
> Thank you,
> Peter.

-- 
Bye,
Andreas


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Re: sexy open source

[Andreas Hochsteger]

Hi!

On Donnerstag, 15. August 2002 4:40, Vegan Portal wrote:
> Hi Andreas,
>  --- Andreas Hochsteger
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >

I'll give some short comments to various projects as you suggested below.

> > * UML Modeling:
> >   ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org/)
It's a great UML modelling tool and serves as the basis of the commercial 
Poseidon for UML (http://www.gentleware.com/)

> > * Version Control System:
> >   CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
Perhaps all Open Source developers know this.

> >   Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)
This is definitely worth a look.
It aims to replace CVS and has a much superior design and much more features 
(WebDAV, versioning of metadata and directories, ...). You can convert 
existing CVS repositories and the commands are the same (where it makes 
sense). It's currently in alpha state, but subversion is selfhosting for 
nearly a year now and the beta version should come out later this year.

> > * IDE:
> >   Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)
Plugin-based general purpose IDE with plugins for Java development. IBM 
Websphere Application Developer is based on it. There are also plugins for 
C/C++ (Linux), a graphical editor framework and many for Java development, 
testing, deployment, ...
It uses SWT as an alternative to AWT or Swing which uses the native widgets 
and thus is much faster than the other Swing-based IDEs.

> >   Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/)
Similar to eclipse. It exists much longer and thus has more features built-in. 
It serves as the basis for Suns Forte for Java (now Sun ONE Studio 
Developer). It has now even experimental support for model driven 
architecture (http://www.omg.org/mda/)

> > * Job Scheduling:
> >   Quartz (http://www.part.net/quartz.html)
Enterprise class J2EE job sceduler.

> > * Workflow Management (continued):
> >   OSWorkflow
> > (http://www.opensymphony.com/osworkflow/)
Part of the J2EE Open Symphony component framework.

> > * Search Engine:
> >   Apache Lucene (http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/)
Very flexible and most powerful search engine from the Apache Jakarta project.

> > * Regression Testing:
> >   JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
The famous Java unit testing framework.

> >   JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
Is based on JUnit but separates test code from test data via XML files.

> >   JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
Desktop application for load test functional behaviour of web applications and 
do performance measures. It's an Apache Jakarta project.

> > * Build Framework:
> >   Ant (http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/)
This is sure known by every java developer. It's something similar to the old 
unix make tool but is much more powerful and very vell supported. It's an 
Apache Jakarta project.

> >   Krysalis Centipede
This is an excellent Ant-based build framework. You can extend it with Apache 
Forrest to generate documentation and project websites.

> > (http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/)
> > * Project Site Management:
> >   Apache Forrest (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/)
A cocoon-based documentation and project website generation system. It's a 
very young but very enthusiastic Apache XML project.

> 
> Thank you for jumping in!
> Almost all of your proposals I know already, some are
> on my (getting long) task list to download and test
> out. All are probably of great use to establish open
> source based development company. I've kept them out
> in my initial post, because it would be twice that
> long mentioning them.
> Some Remarks:
> ArgoUML seems to be dead as open source, evolving to
> free and/or commercial Poseidon edtions available at

Why do you think that it's dead?
They released version 0.11.1 two weeks ago and there were 7 releases this 
year. They also have now a plug-in architecture (which Poseidon for UML had 
before) which can be used to develop third party extensions (e.g. round trip 
engineering, ...) and features now deployment diagrams.

> www.gentleware.com. Nevertheless, it is probably the
> most evolved (almost) freely available UML engine with
> some very interesting features (critiques, for
> example) not available elsewhere. Even in free
> edition, it produces XMI, that could be further
> processed with open source to generate DB, EJBs and
> documentation. That's why I've mentioned it. Getting
> little angry here, I just don't understand why open
> www.omg.org specifications don't go also open or free
> regarding their implementation in leading products
> like Together, Rational or Embarcadero, just to get
> more customers for consulting, the key concept behind
> sale of open source. That's why I recommend free yer
> lame Poseidon, because I think the UML-based
> engineering is of great use in almost every serious
> project.
> Regarding Lucene, I'm definitely eager to use it as
> advanced search engine in Cocoon, I hope it easy to be
> integrated.
> I had not to do any testing so far, but I'll
> definitelly have to look at engines proposed from yo

Re: sexy open source

[Ivelin Ivanov]

My experience also shows that Postgresql is a good database.


- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo Rivera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: sexy open source


I recommend you try PostgreSQL.

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:11, Argyn Kuketayev escribió:
> subj was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source"
> RDBMS comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
>
> Ok, Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed.
>
> business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and
> features.
>
> Cocoon is sexy too, btw
> jBoss is not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Manos Batsis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
> Argyn,
>
> Err... the subject says "open source".
>
> I don't think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what
> doesn't, so I just won't.
>
> Manos
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:05 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
>
> RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> better than anything.
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
>
> jBoss sucks, imho.

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Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > 
> Since we are talking about add-on projects, I would
> vote for Wyona CMS 
> project; a content management system that sits on
> top of Cocoon.
> http://www.wyona.org
Well, there's also DBPrism as an extension to Cocoon
but I want to know if anybody here is succesfully
employing them for production.
As my current project involves content management done
by about 2000 authorized users, I'll definitely take a
look at Wyona!
WebMacro or WebEditor were of no use for me, so I'm
eager to discover other possibilities for Cocoon-based
CMS.
Thank you,
Peter.


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Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi Andreas,
 --- Andreas Hochsteger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >
> * UML Modeling:
>   ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org/)
> * Version Control System:
>   CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
>   Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)
> * IDE:
>   Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)
>   Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/)
> * Job Scheduling:
>   Quartz (http://www.part.net/quartz.html)
> * Workflow Management (continued):
>   OSWorkflow
> (http://www.opensymphony.com/osworkflow/)
> * Search Engine:
>   Apache Lucene (http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/)
> * Regression Testing:
>   JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
>   JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
>   JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
> * Build Framework:
>   Ant (http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/)
>   Krysalis Centipede
> (http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/)
> * Project Site Management:
>   Apache Forrest (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/)
Thank you for jumping in!
Almost all of your proposals I know already, some are
on my (getting long) task list to download and test
out. All are probably of great use to establish open
source based development company. I've kept them out
in my initial post, because it would be twice that
long mentioning them.
Some Remarks:
ArgoUML seems to be dead as open source, evolving to
free and/or commercial Poseidon edtions available at
www.gentleware.com. Nevertheless, it is probably the
most evolved (almost) freely available UML engine with
some very interesting features (critiques, for
example) not available elsewhere. Even in free
edition, it produces XMI, that could be further
processed with open source to generate DB, EJBs and
documentation. That's why I've mentioned it. Getting
little angry here, I just don't understand why open
www.omg.org specifications don't go also open or free
regarding their implementation in leading products
like Together, Rational or Embarcadero, just to get
more customers for consulting, the key concept behind
sale of open source. That's why I recommend free yer
lame Poseidon, because I think the UML-based
engineering is of great use in almost every serious
project.
Regarding Lucene, I'm definitely eager to use it as
advanced search engine in Cocoon, I hope it easy to be
integrated.
I had not to do any testing so far, but I'll
definitelly have to look at engines proposed from you
above, regarding how far are they able to benchmark
various possible Cocoon configurations and placement
inside oher frmeworks.

> If I find some more projects in my huge unmanaged
> link mail folder I'll let 
> you know ;-)
Well, I thought I'm quite experienced with actual open
source roadmap, but I see there are many applications
I was not aware of, so keep on posting your proposals,
possibly with short comment on them.
Eager for your next responses,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Geoff Howard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > 
> So far, every time I hear someone talk about using
> EJB's and cocoon, the
> topic gets bundled with deploying cocoon in the
> appserver itself, which pegs
> you to one front end machine and causes all of your
> display logic (cocoon)
> to run on the same disks and cpus as your ejb logic.
As my little newbie soul sees it, that's not such a
problem, because good application server allows to get
rid of really resource-intensive EJBs or other
components alone by distributing it elsewhere than on
the machine running Cocoon.

>  Is no one using EJB's
> on a remote (conceptually remote, even if it's on
> the same machine for now)
> server from within cocoon?  Seems to me that a
> powerful set up is
That was my initial proposal - accessing remote J2EE
components from Cocoon - but it seems that reality has
to deal with extended exception handling of all those
possible errors coming from J2EE and that's why yet
another link in the chain (incrementally handling the
errors) should be established in between, to redirect
requests avoiding Cocoon to implement complicated
logic.

> Of course the EJBServer and database can be
> clustered too, but you'd need a 
> pretty whopping load before that would be necessary.
That's exactly what I'm interested in. Taking
lightweight, just Tomcat-based Cocoon with direct
connection to DB has to be tested and benchmarked
regarding concurrent user requests. If it fails for
possible traffic on public site, then the J2EE should
help out, because most bottlenecks are probably in
business logic, after optimizing the technology.
Are there sites or users doing these benchmarks
available anywhere?
Hoping to clear this issue,
Peter.

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Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Wow, this thread got a lot of attention.
I'm more than happy about it. With my ongoing
experience with open source mailing lists, I've
awaited little or no response. Perhaps it was just
good subject line :)

> Unfortunatelly I am home and I 
> won't go over those messages via a web based
> interface (that's the only 
> way to view them from home). I chast subscribed with
> this addy instead. 
> I will keep our context in my reply and do an
> overall comment sometime 
> tommorow.

I'm using webmail (open to all my colleagues) too,
rather than flooding up my business email account
because of high traffic here or on other open source
maillists I've subscribed to. Till I establish my own
mail server (dynamic IP) to be accessible from
everywhere, I hope the capacity of my webmail will
stand for the amount of posts till that time. Feel
free to ask me how to establish home-based dynamic
email server privately.

 
> >  > 1.4 is better IMHO.
> > Well, it should be, but I've seen several people
> here
> > reporting problems already with Cocoon alone, not
> to
> > mention other components.
> That's because you had to build Cocoon using JDK1.4
> to for some things 
> to work, namelly database access.
OK, I did not get to it today, I don't expect binary
to be available now for 1.4 but I see no problem with
building the sources (I've made it several times in
order to implement the patches that unfortunatelly did
not help me with JBoss 3.0.1). Is there any
customization to source needed to be successfully
built in 1.4? If it is the case, point me to any
valuable places discussing it, rather then writing it
down again...

> > What version of Cocoon
> > to take?
> cocoon-2.0.3-vm14-bin.zip (win32)
> cocoon-2.0.3-vm14-bin.tar.gz (linux)
OK, ignore my previous statement, I will try the
binary directly. (I've put one minute to writing it
and now I'm too tired to delete it :)

> Usually MySQL, but that's mostly because of habit
> and web administration 
> via PHPMyAdmin.
I would like to use MySQL/phpMyAdmin too, it rocks,
but I need the transactions, constraint-driven
triggers, easy log-based failure recovery and stored
procedures to deal with complicated low-level business
logic...

> >  > More people are familiar with Tomcat.
> > Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that
> much.
> > Again, fault of using JBoss at all?
> Actually, there's a bundle of JBoss with a version
> of  Tomcat at 
> JBoss.org. No clue about setting those two up
> together but I know people 
> in this list have done so; perhaps someone should do
> a good thing and 
> supply with the documentation for this (item 1 ;-)
Believe me, I've tried everything possible including
manipulation of sources to get JBoss301Tomcat404
accepting Cocoon - no luck. Using default Jetty, it
works out ot the box, that's why I've originally
proposed Jetty rather than Tomcat. Moreover, is seems
that Jetty is getting more community involvement right
now compared to Tomcat as little conservative
reference implementation of established standars.

> > You are probably ironic here regarding the
> complexity
> > of SVG. 
> On the contrary, I love SVG.
SVG rocks, but I was disturbed by complexity of
generating reusable dynamic graphic through XSL, for
example if I wanted to read a collection of
navigational buttons with several properties from
database and then serialize them as dynamic data to
SVG (later to binary images). This tasks are higly
manual and including deep knowleadge of SVG alone. My
designers are avoiding to learn SVG other that on
WYSIWYG basis, thus there's more work for me to
provide easily adjustable SVG to them.

> JascWebdraw is good, but if you have a markup/web
> authoring background 
> you are better with a good text editor. I don't know
> about open source 
> projects on the SVG editor area.
Again, I have the knowledge how to write SVG, but
designers hate it. Maybe I should be hard on them to
go out from proprietary tools and use standards
instead. Or I need another person writing SVG for
them.

> >  > > Project Management: PHPMyProject
> >  > No files released. Try phpcollab.
> > True. Thank you for suggestion.
> Pretty cool. Even has Gant charts. Instalation was a
> little hard on windows.
Pleas explain what Gant is. I have to get it working
on Linux, I hope the same problems as by MS do not
emerge.

> > You mean some group of crazy people should be put
> > together and make the ultimate environment true? 
> Hey, it's a geek fashion ;-)
> Seriously now, it's a big task and will require
> people to through in 
> some brains, experience and hours of work. Worst of
> all, it will require 
> us to be serious and eager to do the job.
I'm ready to establish website for this task if
needed, e.g. enough people are willing to invest their
time for it.

Thank you for your time you've spent on this issuee,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hello again, Peter,

 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb:
> JBoss 3 was still alpha when we started this release
> cycle.  Jan./Feb. will
> be our first chance to consider using it.
Fine. I think till that time is 3rd generation of
JBoss mature enough to make easy migration possible.
As for now (after I spent two weeks on it),
integration of not already preconfigured services
(like Cocoon or alien DBs) is very buggy or not
documented (even in commercial support), so I beter
give up on trying to get it working.

> > b) Do you have to write the proxies for every EJB
> > manually or is there automatized solution?
> We manually write the code. 90% of the time it's
> just thin layer wrappers,
> but every once in a while there is some other
> encapsulation.  In particular,
> polymorphic methods that all populate the same data
> class for retrieval but
> in different ways.  There are some philosophical
> differences on how pure a
> proxy should be. Personally, I don't have a problem
> with a proxy
> interpreting my intentions with a slightly different
> implementation then I
> may be aware of.  For me, that's one of the benefits
> of using a proxy.
I've awaited this and it is fine with me. Writting
little Java to get rid of unfullfilled standard
integration problems is a way to go in such a dynamic
situation. Maybe the interface gets cleared up and
broadly supported in (near) future; my taste of open
source is that nobody is eager to support universal
access to obsolete but established technologies if
there is an innovative solution replacing them... I'm
afraid previous sentences make little sense to
readers, but English is far of being my mother tongue
and it's going late here for me to express such an
abstract observation clearly.

> > b) Are you able to use load balancing and other
> > administration of JBoss fully with no negatives on
> > running system?
> Pretty much so.  However, currently all production
> deployments are still on
> Websphere with scheduled down time.  This will
> change once the current
> release makes it to production, but so far there are
> no plans to build a hot
> fail over environment.
Oh yeah, good old Websphere. I wish I could get back
to it with many problems solved as such or with costly
support in change of not integrating the newest
features, but my tight budget doesn't allow this. I
hope JBoss could serve your needs after migration.

> > d) Do the efforts with J2EE pay off really better
> > performance and manageability against simple
> Tomcat
> > approach according your experience?
> Architectures are based on business needs.  (If
> you'd like to pay me to
> analyze your business requirements and determine the
> appropriate
> architecture for your needs I might be open to
> offers...)
Yes, the business technology needs should be evaluted
by experts. It may cost something, but prevents lame
failures. That's what open source core developers are
living from and that's nice. My dream of far future is
to become even expert consulting for free, just for
the feeling and experience to bring reusable solutions
to community and move to higher level of making the
world a better place to live, supported as a general
movement by people who have money and share the
excitement with poor developers... [Ignore this, past
anarchist is getting insane heading again just minimal
four hours to sleep...]


Honestly, I went through stjude.org, nice idea, but if
you'd decipher my nick, I'm quite uncomfortable with
basic research exploiting animals with little or no
actual use at all for all those unfortunate children -
probably dictated by industry-driven NCI and others. I
hope you work to catalogize only really valuable
clinical research e.g. non-invasive statistical
environment observation to help to discover most
valuable prevention possibilities. Worth a quarrel
between us...
Moreover, I'm (fortunatelly) not the one giving money
out here. Nevertheless, although miles away, you are
looking like to be a suitable consultant for us with
enough spare time. Wait till I discuss your possible
involvement with those sitting on cash, then I'll
contact you directly. Quick but informed expertise is
awaited.



Going on,

 For our case the
> business requirements don't necessarily dictate a
> J2EE architecture and the
> learning curve was sufficiently long that knowing
> what we know now we might
> not have done it.  However, having climbed the
> learning curve there is
> definitely no reason to go back.
You mean J2EE was too big calibre for your
requirements but after you got into it, you wanted not
to give up on possible features? It's probably similar
situation as we are in, wanting to get one custom
solution working ASAP, but looking up to more abstract
framework for an unique kind of Internet-based busines
for being extended and developed further on
open-source basis. The balance between those two
targets is needed.

> > e) Do you use JBoss in any custom or standarized
> 

Re: sexy open source

[Johann Romefort]

- Original Message -
From: "Vegan Portal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: sexy open source


> --- Johann Romefort <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> schrieb: > I am really happy with SAP-DB / Castor for
> RDBMS
> > Persistence
> Sorry Johann, that I forgot to reply you before, but
> this way is very interesting for sure!
> AFAIK (without checking it out right now), SAP-DB
> quite new, but probably very evolved RDBMS on open
> source scene, coming from famous SAP company and
> getting real good response in the last time. It may be
> (regarding features) compared to PostgreSQL (with
> clear open source roots) or Firebird (previously
> Borland's Interbase, with very complicated history and
> even more complicated future).

Well, SAP-DB also has a quite complicated history, and
was known before as ADABAS. From my personal
experience it is the most professional free RDMS that
I've ever used (I had more or less happy experiences
with postgreSQL, Interbase and Mysql). I found that
SAPDB server and tools are far more matured than its
open-sources competitor.

>I'm very open to give
> SAP-DB a try, if the JDBC driver is easy to integrate
> into Cocoon or JBoss and free DB management IDE
> exists.

yes, there is a pure java JDBC2 driver, and you get a
Win32 Database Administration Tool, a Win32 SQL
Studio tool (some interesting features includes visual
SQL query composition). About Cocoon I successfully
used the ESQL stylesheets with SAP.

>Any hints from you are highly appreciated.
> Regarding Castor, my understanding (most probably
> wrong) is that it is a tool to marshall/unmarshall XML
> to Java and back.

Castor provides you with XML / Object mapping framework,
with a JDO (not Sun JDO compatible )part which take OQL
query and return Objects based on a mapping file (which can
be marshalled as XML), with XMLSchema -> Java Source
Generator, and finally with LDAP access with the integration
of the DSML standard.
So I use it like a glue between all my Data Objects, my DB
and my XML stuff.

>I'm little uncertain about its role
> inside Cocoon framework (perhaps to serve as DB access
> tier without using poorly managed ESQL from Cocoon?).

Well my application is composed of mainly two parts:
The first part is the Tomcat/ Cocoon2 machinery
The second part is an RMI server running all the workflow of the
application and for intance the RDBMS access layer.
So, simplifying a bit, my Cocoon frontend lookup my RMIServer
in an XSP page, then send the request to the RMI server, which
in return invokes the Castor stuff which return data objects back.
These objects are then marshalled as XML inside an XSP page
and incorporated in the current XML stream. Then I apply
the XSL stuff and render the HTML.
The only thing with CastorJDO is that the community is moving
quite slowly. Anyone who have some experience with other
JDO frameworks (OJB, Hibernate ) ?

Johann

ps: (I'll be away for two days, so I'll get back to your comment on
saturday)


> Please be kind to describe us your application
> structure, pros and cons!
> I your debt,
> Peter.
>
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Re: sexy open source

[Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)]

Since we are talking about add-on projects, I would vote for Wyona CMS 
project; a content management system that sits on top of Cocoon.
http://www.wyona.org




Andreas Hochsteger wrote:

>Hi again!
>
>I found some more links at home.
>So here they are:
>* UML Modeling:
>  ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org/)
>* Version Control System:
>  CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
>  Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)
>* IDE:
>  Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)
>  Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/)
>* Job Scheduling:
>  Quartz (http://www.part.net/quartz.html)
>* Workflow Management (continued):
>  OSWorkflow (http://www.opensymphony.com/osworkflow/)
>* Search Engine:
>  Apache Lucene (http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/)
>* Regression Testing:
>  JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
>  JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
>  JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
>* Build Framework:
>  Ant (http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/)
>  Krysalis Centipede (http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/)
>* Project Site Management:
>  Apache Forrest (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/)
>
>If I find some more projects in my huge unmanaged link mail folder I'll let 
>you know ;-)
>
>On Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 20:00, Manos Batsis wrote:
>  
>
>>Score 2, informative ;-)
>>I guess I'll have to get KDE3. Either that or I have no clue about what is
>>going on in my machine (quite possible).
>>
>>Manos
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Hochsteger Andreas /INFO-MA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Wed 8/14/2002 6:32 PM
>>To:   '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
>>Cc:
>>Subject:  AW: sexy open source
>>I don't know, if you're interested in that, but I've got some additions to
>>your suggestions:
>>
>>* CRM/ERP System:
>>  Compiere (http://www.compiere.org/)
>>* XML Editor for Content Editing:
>>  Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)
>>* Content Management System:
>>  Wyona (http://www.wyona.org/)
>>* SVG Editing:
>>  Kontour (KDE KOffice Application, http://www.koffice.org/kontour/)
>>* eBusiness Integration
>>  Open3 Projects and Components (http://www.open3.org/)
>>* Enterprise Network Management:
>>  OpenNMS (http://www.opennms.org/)
>>* Single-Sign-On:
>>  Liberty Alliance Standard (no products yet?)
>>* Central User Management: ?
>>* Workflow Management:
>>  OpenFlow (http://www.openflow.it/EN/)
>>  Open Business Engine (http://www.openbusinessengine.org/)
>>  Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
>>* Instant Messaging:
>>  Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/)
>>* Shop/eCommerce
>>  Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
>>
>>I could imagine even more business areas, where a complete open source
>>based integration would be like heaven.
>>Please give comments, I'm interesting in your suggestions.
>>
>>
>>
>>>-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>>>Von: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 14:53
>>>An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Betreff: sexy open source
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi cocooners,
>>>Now that I have your attention, I would like to
>>>discuss the ideal of non-compromised development of
>>>full-blown, stable, scallable and manageable
>>>applications with open-source only and how far one
>>>could get to fulfill this. It is probably little OT on
>>>this list, but I think a bunch of very open-minded and
>>>progressive folks is here, so I hope I could get some
>>>discussion going.
>>>I think many of you have reached some status quo which
>>>could be of great service to all the newcomers.
>>>Nevertheless, everybody is probably tired of yet
>>>another bugs, yet another unanswered questions, yet
>>>another everyday technology-related problems and there
>>>is no end to this. But I have a faith that there is
>>>some solution that could be achieved with open source
>>>and it waits to be discovered.
>>>It starts with what one wants to achieve. For me, it
>>>is secure content-centric multi-user roles web portal,
>>>with professional design, able to serve without
>>>interruption even by ongoing changes and high user
>>>traffic. But I think the framework I'd like to propose
>>>here may be universal enough to be equally worth also
>>>for many other means.
>>>If you got so far with me, I'd like to start being
>>>concrete:
>>>1) Operating system
>>>Proposal: Linux
>>>Remarks: One could discuss the distributions or other
>>>Unix derivates here, but I think it's irrelevant for
>>>further points.
>>>2) Programming language
>>>Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
>>>Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
>>>may still take some time to be able to be used for
>>>production sites. Moreover, many open source
>>>technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
>>>if I'm wrong.
>>>3) Application framework
>>>Proposal: JBoss 3.x
>>>Remarks: This is worth discussion, as many of you use
>>>iPlanet or don't use any J2EE or related technologies
>>>at all. I think JBoss is good for achieving
>>>scallability for the site. What concrete parts of
>>>JBoss are involved, is very OT here.
>>>4) Business Logic Persistence
>>>Proposal:

Re: sexy open source

[Vadim Gritsenko]

Peter Lerche wrote:

>On Wednesday 14 August 2002 16:44, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>  
>
>>Antonio Gallardo Rivera wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The same here! ;)
>>>
>>>El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:02, Manos Batsis escribió:
>>>  
>>>
>From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>  
>
>>...
>>
>>
>>
>8) Web frontend
>Proposal: Apache
>Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
>of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
>more of you are using it, true?
>  
>
Not needed.


>>>Not needed
>>>  
>>>
>>Can somebody explain how to run Tomcat on port 80 under user with no
>>root priviledges?
>>
>>
>
>Hi Vadim your question is a bit off topic but ...OK .
>

Hey, come on,  today is offtopic day! See all these messages fly? None 
of them are Cocoon related ;-P


>I assume that you are taking about  Tomcat running on a *nix.
>All ports below 1024 (correct me if I am wrong the port no.) is reserved
>for root only.
>

I know that, hence the question. Apache can do change uid on its file 
serving childs, but that's not an option for Java app like Tomcat.


> Just run Tomcat on port 8080 and make a port map in your 
>firewall 80->8080  (you would not run a webserver without a firewall WELL...)
>

(yes, I use f/wall built into my modem)


>It is a lot safer to run the server on 8080 you can create a user with nice 
>restricted userrights. 
>

That's was my point.

So, the answer is:
Apache + Tomcat  can be replaced with firewall (linux iptables?) + Tomcat.


Thanks to Rossel for the hint.

Vadim

>Peter Lerche
>
>  
>
>>Vadim
>>
>>...
>>
>>


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Re: sexy open source

[Andreas Hochsteger]

Hi again!

I found some more links at home.
So here they are:
* UML Modeling:
  ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org/)
* Version Control System:
  CVS (http://www.cvshome.org/)
  Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/) (!!!)
* IDE:
  Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)
  Netbeans (http://www.netbeans.org/)
* Job Scheduling:
  Quartz (http://www.part.net/quartz.html)
* Workflow Management (continued):
  OSWorkflow (http://www.opensymphony.com/osworkflow/)
* Search Engine:
  Apache Lucene (http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene/)
* Regression Testing:
  JUnit (http://www.junit.org/)
  JXUnit (http://jxunit.sourceforge.net/)
  JMeter (http://jakarta.apache.org/jmeter)
* Build Framework:
  Ant (http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/)
  Krysalis Centipede (http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/)
* Project Site Management:
  Apache Forrest (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/)

If I find some more projects in my huge unmanaged link mail folder I'll let 
you know ;-)

On Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 20:00, Manos Batsis wrote:
> Score 2, informative ;-)
> I guess I'll have to get KDE3. Either that or I have no clue about what is
> going on in my machine (quite possible).
>
> Manos
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Hochsteger Andreas /INFO-MA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wed 8/14/2002 6:32 PM
> To:   '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Cc:
> Subject:  AW: sexy open source
> I don't know, if you're interested in that, but I've got some additions to
> your suggestions:
>
> * CRM/ERP System:
>   Compiere (http://www.compiere.org/)
> * XML Editor for Content Editing:
>   Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)
> * Content Management System:
>   Wyona (http://www.wyona.org/)
> * SVG Editing:
>   Kontour (KDE KOffice Application, http://www.koffice.org/kontour/)
> * eBusiness Integration
>   Open3 Projects and Components (http://www.open3.org/)
> * Enterprise Network Management:
>   OpenNMS (http://www.opennms.org/)
> * Single-Sign-On:
>   Liberty Alliance Standard (no products yet?)
> * Central User Management: ?
> * Workflow Management:
>   OpenFlow (http://www.openflow.it/EN/)
>   Open Business Engine (http://www.openbusinessengine.org/)
>   Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
> * Instant Messaging:
>   Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/)
> * Shop/eCommerce
>   Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
>
> I could imagine even more business areas, where a complete open source
> based integration would be like heaven.
> Please give comments, I'm interesting in your suggestions.
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 14:53
> > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Betreff: sexy open source
> >
> >
> > Hi cocooners,
> > Now that I have your attention, I would like to
> > discuss the ideal of non-compromised development of
> > full-blown, stable, scallable and manageable
> > applications with open-source only and how far one
> > could get to fulfill this. It is probably little OT on
> > this list, but I think a bunch of very open-minded and
> > progressive folks is here, so I hope I could get some
> > discussion going.
> > I think many of you have reached some status quo which
> > could be of great service to all the newcomers.
> > Nevertheless, everybody is probably tired of yet
> > another bugs, yet another unanswered questions, yet
> > another everyday technology-related problems and there
> > is no end to this. But I have a faith that there is
> > some solution that could be achieved with open source
> > and it waits to be discovered.
> > It starts with what one wants to achieve. For me, it
> > is secure content-centric multi-user roles web portal,
> > with professional design, able to serve without
> > interruption even by ongoing changes and high user
> > traffic. But I think the framework I'd like to propose
> > here may be universal enough to be equally worth also
> > for many other means.
> > If you got so far with me, I'd like to start being
> > concrete:
> > 1) Operating system
> > Proposal: Linux
> > Remarks: One could discuss the distributions or other
> > Unix derivates here, but I think it's irrelevant for
> > further points.
> > 2) Programming language
> > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> > Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> > may still take some time to be able to be used for
> > production sites. Moreover, many open source
> > technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> > if I'm wrong.
> > 3) Application framework
> > Proposal: JBoss 3.x
> > Remarks: This is worth discussion, as many of you use
> > iPlanet or don't use any J2EE or related technologies
> > at all. I think JBoss is good for achieving
> > scallability for the site. What concrete parts of
> > JBoss are involved, is very OT here.
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> > Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> > open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> > nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next g

Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Johann Romefort <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > I am really happy with SAP-DB / Castor for
RDBMS
> Persistence
Sorry Johann, that I forgot to reply you before, but
this way is very interesting for sure!
AFAIK (without checking it out right now), SAP-DB
quite new, but probably very evolved RDBMS on open
source scene, coming from famous SAP company and
getting real good response in the last time. It may be
(regarding features) compared to PostgreSQL (with
clear open source roots) or Firebird (previously
Borland's Interbase, with very complicated history and
even more complicated future). I'm very open to give
SAP-DB a try, if the JDBC driver is easy to integrate
into Cocoon or JBoss and free DB management IDE
exists. Any hints from you are highly appreciated.
Regarding Castor, my understanding (most probably
wrong) is that it is a tool to marshall/unmarshall XML
to Java and back. I'm little uncertain about its role
inside Cocoon framework (perhaps to serve as DB access
tier without using poorly managed ESQL from Cocoon?).
Please be kind to describe us your application
structure, pros and cons!
I your debt,
Peter.

__

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
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Re: sexy open source

[Peter Lerche]

On Wednesday 14 August 2002 16:44, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Antonio Gallardo Rivera wrote:
> > The same here! ;)
> >
> > El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:02, Manos Batsis escribió:
> >>>From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> ...
>
> >>>8) Web frontend
> >>>Proposal: Apache
> >>>Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> >>>of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> >>>more of you are using it, true?
> >>
> >>Not needed.
> >
> > Not needed
>
> Can somebody explain how to run Tomcat on port 80 under user with no
> root priviledges?

Hi Vadim your question is a bit off topic but ...OK .

I assume that you are taking about  Tomcat running on a *nix.
All ports below 1024 (correct me if I am wrong the port no.) is reserved
for root only. Just run Tomcat on port 8080 and make a port map in your 
firewall 80->8080  (you would not run a webserver without a firewall WELL...)
It is a lot safer to run the server on 8080 you can create a user with nice 
restricted userrights. 

Peter Lerche

  



>
> Vadim
>
> ...
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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RE: sexy open source

[Manos Batsis]

-Original Message-
From:   ROSSEL Olivier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wed 8/14/2002 6:39 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Cc: 
Subject:    RE: sexy open source
> * XML Editor for Content Editing:
>   Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)

If we need XML editing on the client side and for relativelly small document sizes, I 
can cook up something really cool that has been sleeping for some time. Heh, for this 
project, it's gonna worth it.

Manos

<>
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RE: sexy open source

[Manos Batsis]

Score 2, informative ;-)
I guess I'll have to get KDE3. Either that or I have no clue about what is going on in 
my machine (quite possible).

Manos


-Original Message-
From:   Hochsteger Andreas /INFO-MA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Wed 8/14/2002 6:32 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Cc: 
Subject:AW: sexy open source
I don't know, if you're interested in that, but I've got some additions to
your suggestions:

* CRM/ERP System:
  Compiere (http://www.compiere.org/)
* XML Editor for Content Editing:
  Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)
* Content Management System:
  Wyona (http://www.wyona.org/)
* SVG Editing:
  Kontour (KDE KOffice Application, http://www.koffice.org/kontour/)
* eBusiness Integration
  Open3 Projects and Components (http://www.open3.org/)
* Enterprise Network Management:
  OpenNMS (http://www.opennms.org/)
* Single-Sign-On:
  Liberty Alliance Standard (no products yet?)
* Central User Management: ?
* Workflow Management:
  OpenFlow (http://www.openflow.it/EN/)
  Open Business Engine (http://www.openbusinessengine.org/)
  Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
* Instant Messaging:
  Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/)
* Shop/eCommerce
  Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)

I could imagine even more business areas, where a complete open source based
integration would be like heaven.
Please give comments, I'm interesting in your suggestions.


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 14:53
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: sexy open source
> 
> 
> Hi cocooners,
> Now that I have your attention, I would like to
> discuss the ideal of non-compromised development of
> full-blown, stable, scallable and manageable
> applications with open-source only and how far one
> could get to fulfill this. It is probably little OT on
> this list, but I think a bunch of very open-minded and
> progressive folks is here, so I hope I could get some
> discussion going.
> I think many of you have reached some status quo which
> could be of great service to all the newcomers.
> Nevertheless, everybody is probably tired of yet
> another bugs, yet another unanswered questions, yet
> another everyday technology-related problems and there
> is no end to this. But I have a faith that there is
> some solution that could be achieved with open source
> and it waits to be discovered.
> It starts with what one wants to achieve. For me, it
> is secure content-centric multi-user roles web portal,
> with professional design, able to serve without
> interruption even by ongoing changes and high user
> traffic. But I think the framework I'd like to propose
> here may be universal enough to be equally worth also
> for many other means.
> If you got so far with me, I'd like to start being
> concrete:
> 1) Operating system
> Proposal: Linux
> Remarks: One could discuss the distributions or other
> Unix derivates here, but I think it's irrelevant for
> further points.
> 2) Programming language
> Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> may still take some time to be able to be used for
> production sites. Moreover, many open source
> technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> if I'm wrong.
> 3) Application framework
> Proposal: JBoss 3.x
> Remarks: This is worth discussion, as many of you use
> iPlanet or don't use any J2EE or related technologies
> at all. I think JBoss is good for achieving
> scallability for the site. What concrete parts of
> JBoss are involved, is very OT here.
> 4) Business Logic Persistence
> Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next good
> candidate could be PostgreSQL - with more user
> support, so maybe better solution. Any ideas?
> 5) Web container
> Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> Remarks: I know Tomcat is more used, but Jetty is
> easier to be integrated into JBoss and both offer
> similar if not same functionality. This is a point I
> would like to discuss further.
> 6) Content Persistence
> Proposal: stand-alone XIndice
> Remarks: This component should be used only for
> content without business logic, outside J2EE, for
> example for simple static content editing templates
> and external content syndicate subscription. Simply
> for everything that's too light to be served by deep
> application logic. Did anybody use it already? That's
> a question.
> 7) Content Framework
> Proposal: Cocoon, what else :)
> Remarks: The task of Cocoon is to separate Logic from
> Design, what it should be good at. I want to get more
> detailed here: Starting with structured XSP,
> xincluding or transforming (what is better?) parts of
> final site together, using taglib logicsheets for
> access to business logic that is delegated to J2EE
> (did anybody here got it working?), other taglib for
> content persi

RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> So far, every time I hear someone talk about using EJB's and cocoon, the
> topic gets bundled with deploying cocoon in the appserver itself, which
pegs
> you to one front end machine and causes all of your display logic (cocoon)
> to run on the same disks and cpus as your ejb logic.  Is no one using
EJB's
> on a remote (conceptually remote, even if it's on the same machine for
now)
> server from within cocoon?  Seems to me that a powerful set up is

Assuming you had your JNDI service running correctly the only issue would be
packaging up the data classes and the interfaces for Cocoon. That could be a
bit of a pain if you had a lot of EJB's and had to manually code the build
script to package up the right pieces, but if you're careful with your
naming conventions you could probably automate that pretty quickly (for
every class that has a "Home" or "Bean" suffix you know there's a
corresponding class that doesn't have the "Home" suffix that is the class
you want to bundle up for Cocoon). Haven't needed to do this yet, but could
be doing so sometime this fall.
  

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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source







> -Original Message-
> From: Geoff Howard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:57 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: sexy open source


> So far, every time I hear someone talk about using EJB's and 
> cocoon, the
> topic gets bundled with deploying cocoon in the appserver 
> itself, which pegs
> you to one front end machine and causes all of your display 
> logic (cocoon)
> to run on the same disks and cpus as your ejb logic.  Is no 
> one using EJB's
> on a remote (conceptually remote, even if it's on the same 
> machine for now)
> server from within cocoon?



tell me what makes cocoon different from any other client EJB app? I just don't see the difference. if you may call EJBs from remote Java clients, what would prevent you from doing it from Cocoon's components? 

only thing you need is the proper classpath, with all those client .jar (necessary to obtain JNDI contexts) and remote/home interfaces from the tree.

RE: sexy open source

[Geoff Howard]

-Original Message-
From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:11 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: sexy open source


>> Please, see me as a newbie and give me some code! 
>> a) Explain if there is really working possibility to 
>> have J2EE datasource in cocoon's web.xml alone so one 
>> could access it directly or is it bad idea as such? 
>if you deploy cocoon.war inside your application's .ear file you'll see
everything, even EJBs, not to mention datasources.
>when cocoon is deployed on your appserver, you can get an InitialContext of
the JNDI server even easier, if it was a standalone app. >I simply don't see
a problem at all. I didn't have a necessity to call EJBs from Cocoon
components yet, but I don't see any technical >issues here.

So far, every time I hear someone talk about using EJB's and cocoon, the
topic gets bundled with deploying cocoon in the appserver itself, which pegs
you to one front end machine and causes all of your display logic (cocoon)
to run on the same disks and cpus as your ejb logic.  Is no one using EJB's
on a remote (conceptually remote, even if it's on the same machine for now)
server from within cocoon?  Seems to me that a powerful set up is

CocoonServer ...  [CocoonServer ... CocoonServer ...] cluster

EJBServer 

RDBMS 

Of course the EJBServer and database can be clustered too, but you'd need a 
pretty whopping load before that would be necessary.

Geoff

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Re: sexy open source

[Johann Romefort]

Speaking of LDAP, Castor open-source project also provide 
a nice way to access such directory, by the way of DSML. 

Johann


- Original Message - 
From: "Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: sexy open source


> Argyn Kuketayev wrote:
> 
> > > From: Emmanuil Batsis (Manos) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > > Indeed, my little know-how says it would be stupid to use a
> > > database for
> > > information that updates rarelly, such as user authentication data.
> >
> > why? if it updates really rarely, you may cach it in your appserver or 
> > anywhere else in the memory.
> >
> > frequency of updates itself is not a reason to go into dark forests of 
> > ldap from the shiny fields of RDBMS
> >
> 
> Point taken but one can argue that somethings are easier to implement in 
> LDAP than in a database application. I agree about alternative, 
> application specific stores.
> However, there is no reason to discuss this further while being generic 
> and with no use case in mind; it may be too early to talk about such a 
> use case anyway.
> 
> Manos
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 


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Re: sexy open source

[Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)]

Argyn Kuketayev wrote:

> > From: Emmanuil Batsis (Manos) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> > Indeed, my little know-how says it would be stupid to use a
> > database for
> > information that updates rarelly, such as user authentication data.
>
> why? if it updates really rarely, you may cach it in your appserver or 
> anywhere else in the memory.
>
> frequency of updates itself is not a reason to go into dark forests of 
> ldap from the shiny fields of RDBMS
>

Point taken but one can argue that somethings are easier to implement in 
LDAP than in a database application. I agree about alternative, 
application specific stores.
However, there is no reason to discuss this further while being generic 
and with no use case in mind; it may be too early to talk about such a 
use case anyway.

Manos



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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source







> -Original Message-
> From: Emmanuil Batsis (Manos) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: sexy open source


> Indeed, my little know-how says it would be stupid to use a 
> database for 
> information that updates rarelly, such as user authentication data.


why? if it updates really rarely, you may cach it in your appserver or anywhere else in the memory. 


frequency of updates itself is not a reason to go into dark forests of ldap from the shiny fields of RDBMS

Re: sexy open source

[Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)]

Artur Bialecki wrote:

>Was Directory service mentioned ?
>If not than http://openldap.org.
>
Indeed, my little know-how says it would be stupid to use a database for 
information that updates rarelly, such as user authentication data.

Manos



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RE: sexy open source

[Artur Bialecki]

Was Directory service mentioned ?
If not than http://openldap.org.

Artur...

> -Original Message-
> From: Hochsteger Andreas /INFO-MA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:32 AM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: AW: sexy open source
>
>
> I don't know, if you're interested in that, but I've got some additions to
> your suggestions:
>
> * CRM/ERP System:
>   Compiere (http://www.compiere.org/)
> * XML Editor for Content Editing:
>   Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)
> * Content Management System:
>   Wyona (http://www.wyona.org/)
> * SVG Editing:
>   Kontour (KDE KOffice Application, http://www.koffice.org/kontour/)
> * eBusiness Integration
>   Open3 Projects and Components (http://www.open3.org/)
> * Enterprise Network Management:
>   OpenNMS (http://www.opennms.org/)
> * Single-Sign-On:
>   Liberty Alliance Standard (no products yet?)
> * Central User Management: ?
> * Workflow Management:
>   OpenFlow (http://www.openflow.it/EN/)
>   Open Business Engine (http://www.openbusinessengine.org/)
>   Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
> * Instant Messaging:
>   Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/)
> * Shop/eCommerce
>   Open For Business (http://www.ofbiz.org/)
>
> I could imagine even more business areas, where a complete open source based
> integration would be like heaven.
> Please give comments, I'm interesting in your suggestions.
>
>
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. August 2002 14:53
> > An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Betreff: sexy open source
> >
> >
> > Hi cocooners,
> > Now that I have your attention, I would like to
> > discuss the ideal of non-compromised development of
> > full-blown, stable, scallable and manageable
> > applications with open-source only and how far one
> > could get to fulfill this. It is probably little OT on
> > this list, but I think a bunch of very open-minded and
> > progressive folks is here, so I hope I could get some
> > discussion going.
> > I think many of you have reached some status quo which
> > could be of great service to all the newcomers.
> > Nevertheless, everybody is probably tired of yet
> > another bugs, yet another unanswered questions, yet
> > another everyday technology-related problems and there
> > is no end to this. But I have a faith that there is
> > some solution that could be achieved with open source
> > and it waits to be discovered.
> > It starts with what one wants to achieve. For me, it
> > is secure content-centric multi-user roles web portal,
> > with professional design, able to serve without
> > interruption even by ongoing changes and high user
> > traffic. But I think the framework I'd like to propose
> > here may be universal enough to be equally worth also
> > for many other means.
> > If you got so far with me, I'd like to start being
> > concrete:
> > 1) Operating system
> > Proposal: Linux
> > Remarks: One could discuss the distributions or other
> > Unix derivates here, but I think it's irrelevant for
> > further points.
> > 2) Programming language
> > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> > Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> > may still take some time to be able to be used for
> > production sites. Moreover, many open source
> > technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> > if I'm wrong.
> > 3) Application framework
> > Proposal: JBoss 3.x
> > Remarks: This is worth discussion, as many of you use
> > iPlanet or don't use any J2EE or related technologies
> > at all. I think JBoss is good for achieving
> > scallability for the site. What concrete parts of
> > JBoss are involved, is very OT here.
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> > Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> > open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> > nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next good
> > candidate could be PostgreSQL - with more user
> > support, so maybe better solution. Any ideas?
> > 5) Web container
> > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> > Remarks: I know Tomcat is more used, but Jetty is
> > easier to be integrated into JBoss and both offer
> > similar if not same functionality. This is a point I
> > would like to discuss further.
> > 6) Content Persistence
> > Proposal: stand-alone XIndice
> > Remarks: This component should be used only for
> > content without business logic, outside J2EE, for
> > example for simple static content editing templates
> > and external content syndicate subscription. Simply
> > for everything that's too light to be served by deep
> > application logic. Did anybody use it already? That's
> > a question.
> > 7) Content Framework
> > Proposal: Cocoon, what else :)
> > Remarks: The task of Cocoon is to separate Logic from
> > Design, what it should be good at. I want to get more
> > detailed here: Starting with structured XSP,
> > xincluding or transforming (what is better?) parts of
> > final site together, usi

Re: sexy open source

[Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)]

> From:Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> Hi Manos,


Finally, someone that says hi to people.

Wow, this thread got a lot of attention. Unfortunatelly I am home and I 
won't go over those messages via a web based interface (that's the only 
way to view them from home). I chast subscribed with this addy instead. 
I will keep our context in my reply and do an overall comment sometime 
tommorow.

>  --- Manos Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >
>  > > 2) Programming language
>  > > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
>  > 1.4 is better IMHO.
> Well, it should be, but I've seen several people here
> reporting problems already with Cocoon alone, not to
> mention other components.

That's because you had to build Cocoon using JDK1.4 to for some things 
to work, namelly database access.

> What version of Cocoon
> to take?

cocoon-2.0.3-vm14-bin.zip (win32)
cocoon-2.0.3-vm14-bin.tar.gz (linux)

>  > > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> [...]
> I did not get PostgreSQL working under JBoss, probably
> my fault or the fault of using JBoss at all.

Unfortunatelly, I have no experience whatsoever with JBoss.

> I also
> like PostgreSQL more, but then: What free DB
> Management for Linux/Windows do you use?

Usually MySQL, but that's mostly because of habit and web administration 
via PHPMyAdmin.

>  > More people are familiar with Tomcat.
> Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that much.
> Again, fault of using JBoss at all?


Actually, there's a bundle of JBoss with a version of  Tomcat at 
JBoss.org. No clue about setting those two up together but I know people 
in this list have done so; perhaps someone should do a good thing and 
supply with the documentation for this (item 1 ;-)

> > > dynamically created using SVG (anybody?)
>  > Sure ;-)
> You are probably ironic here regarding the complexity
> of SVG. 

On the contrary, I love SVG.

> But if it could spare the great deal of
> designers work on creating reusable vector-based
> graphics that are then serialized to appropriate
> format, depending on client capabilities. I've put
> some very simple SVG generation together and it is an
> inferno, but I dream about making it mature enough for
> production, although I'm afraid the results may be not
> worth the time put into it and designers love their
> Adobe/Gimp .and hate XML.

JascWebdraw is good, but if you have a markup/web authoring background 
you are better with a good text editor. I don't know about open source 
projects on the SVG editor area.

>  > > 8) Web frontend
>  > > Proposal: Apache
>  > Not needed.
> Is configuring Tomcat secure enough for example in
> case of DoS attacks?

Sorry, out of my territory.


>  > > Project Management: PHPMyProject
>  > No files released. Try phpcollab.
> True. Thank you for suggestion.

Pretty cool. Even has Gant charts. Instalation was a little hard on windows.

> You mean some group of crazy people should be put
> together and make the ultimate environment true? 

Hey, it's a geek fashion ;-)
Seriously now, it's a big task and will require people to through in 
some brains, experience and hours of work. Worst of all, it will require 
us to be serious and eager to do the job.

Kindest regards,

Manos

RE: sexy open source

[I-Lin Kuo]

>From: Argyn Kuketayev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> > Another drawback is that the Java API provided by Oracle is
> > for 1.2, thus
> > lacking regular expression support.
>
>not an issue, ORO is no worse than Jdk 1.4's regexps

You're probably right, as I haven't tried ORO. But personally, I'd prefer 
Sun's version in 1.4, whenever possible.


I-Lin Kuo
Macromedia Certified ColdFusion 5.0 Advanced Developer
Sun Certified Java 2 Programmer
Ann Arbor, MI


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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> a) Did you ever try to migrate to JBoss 3x?

JBoss 3 was still alpha when we started this release cycle.  Jan./Feb. will
be our first chance to consider using it.

> b) Do you have to write the proxies for every EJB
> manually or is there automatized solution?

We manually write the code. 90% of the time it's just thin layer wrappers,
but every once in a while there is some other encapsulation.  In particular,
polymorphic methods that all populate the same data class for retrieval but
in different ways.  There are some philosophical differences on how pure a
proxy should be. Personally, I don't have a problem with a proxy
interpreting my intentions with a slightly different implementation then I
may be aware of.  For me, that's one of the benefits of using a proxy.

> b) Are you able to use load balancing and other
> administration of JBoss fully with no negatives on
> running system?

Pretty much so.  However, currently all production deployments are still on
Websphere with scheduled down time.  This will change once the current
release makes it to production, but so far there are no plans to build a hot
fail over environment.

> d) Do the efforts with J2EE pay off really better
> performance and manageability against simple Tomcat
> approach according your experience?

Architectures are based on business needs.  (If you'd like to pay me to
analyze your business requirements and determine the appropriate
architecture for your needs I might be open to offers...)  For our case the
business requirements don't necessarily dictate a J2EE architecture and the
learning curve was sufficiently long that knowing what we know now we might
not have done it.  However, having climbed the learning curve there is
definitely no reason to go back.

> e) Do you use JBoss in any custom or standarized means
> also for authentification and authorisation for Cocoon
> resources or would it be too complicated to implement?

We're doing custom authentication.  We've looked at realm based
authentication but we have a complex security model in a complex application
and so far there hasn't been a good fit.

> f) Would you be so nice to post some (almost out of
> the box) working demo illustrating your application
> workflow?

Sorry, I can't do that.  The application is a) proprietary, and b) still
under development.  There are over 500 Java classes, over 10 generic XSLT
and a highly abstracted, highly normalized schema covering some 50 tables.
The architecture document is over 200 pages and would barely get down to the
level of detail that you want...  There is no preset workflow within the
application (it's a generic application for capturing the results of
Clinical Trials), 

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RE: sexy open source

[I-Lin Kuo]

>From: ROSSEL Olivier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>But if you use schema-based storage, you can have your XML internally 
>stored
>into SQL tables. And XPath queries are rewritten (yes yes!) into
>corresponding
>SQL equivalent.

That's on the feature list, but is it implemented yet? If so, where? In XSU?

The only examples I can find on this are ones where the table has already 
been defined and you're just loading a chunk of XML. That doesn't seem like 
"schema-based" storage, as Oracle isn't even touching the DTD or XSD. It's 
just doing a direct mapping of an XML document into an object.

Is there more to this?

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Argyn Kuketayev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > > Please, see me as a newbie and give me
some code!
> > a) Explain if there is really working possibility
> to
> > have J2EE datasource in cocoon's web.xml alone so
> one
> > could access it directly or is it bad idea as
> such?
> 
> if you deploy cocoon.war inside your application's
> .ear file you'll see
> everything, even EJBs, not to mention datasources.
The problem is I did not get anything working with
combination of newest release versions of
JBoss/Tomcat/Cocoon, but perhaps I should go back to
JBoss 2.4.x and forget new features/bugs.

> when cocoon is deployed on your appserver, you can
> get an InitialContext of
> the JNDI server even easier, if it was a standalone
> app. I simply don't see
> a problem at all. I didn't have a necessity to call
> EJBs from Cocoon
> components yet, but I don't see any technical issues
> here.
> There could be issues with exception handling, as
> Arthur mentioned. When XSP
> is compiled, it has to handle all exceptions. So,
> Arthur wrote that it's
> better to make EJB calls before rendering the page,
> in order to be able to
> dispatch the request to other pages when errors
> come. Otherwise, it's not a
> big deal to call EJB from inside Cocoon. sorry, no
> code attached :)
I really hope there's no problem. Because of my
initial problems with even installing it and no luck
finding any hints in all possible mail archives, I
wondered if anybody uses the combination at all. Now
that I know it is there, it's now my turn to give it a
serious try and report the whole process to anybody
interested.
Thank you,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source





> Please, see me as a newbie and give me some code!
> a) Explain if there is really working possibility to
> have J2EE datasource in cocoon's web.xml alone so one
> could access it directly or is it bad idea as such?


if you deploy cocoon.war inside your application's .ear file you'll see everything, even EJBs, not to mention datasources.

when cocoon is deployed on your appserver, you can get an InitialContext of the JNDI server even easier, if it was a standalone app. I simply don't see a problem at all. I didn't have a necessity to call EJBs from Cocoon components yet, but I don't see any technical issues here.

There could be issues with exception handling, as Arthur mentioned. When XSP is compiled, it has to handle all exceptions. So, Arthur wrote that it's better to make EJB calls before rendering the page, in order to be able to dispatch the request to other pages when errors come. Otherwise, it's not a big deal to call EJB from inside Cocoon. sorry, no code attached :)

RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > > I don't care for JBoss that much but
would like to
> > have J2EE for business logic scalability. My BIG
> > question is - HOW DO YOU ACCESS EJBs FROM COCOON?
> > Please, give us your secrets!
> 
> Didn't I just answer this?  Nothing special is
> required:
Sorry I got lasting on this, I answered before reading
your next reply.

I think this is what I needed to try it out, I promise
to get back to you with my curiosity only after I get
it roughly working for me.
define your EJB's
> to jBoss as normal. Deploy the EJBs along with the
> Cocoon servlet as part of
> an ear through jBoss.  The Cocoon code can then see
> anything in the EJB jar.
> We mostly use proxy code to wrap the EJB references,
> but you could call them
> directly from your code.  
> 
> We do cache our EJB references using code like:
> 
>  Foo foo =
> (Foo)EJBUtil.getFooBLHome().create().getFoo(fData);
> 
> Where EJBUtil has code like:
> 
> public static FooBLHome getFooBLHome()
>throws BackEndException {
>   try {
>  return
>
(FooBLHome)ResourceFactory.getFactory().lookUpHome(FooBLHome.class);
>   } catch (NamingException e) {
>  throw new BackEndException(e.getMessage());
>   }
>}
> 
> and ResourceFactory is just a singleton that keeps a
> hash map of the
> references.  No need to jump through these hoops if
> you're not pounding on
> the EJB references a lot...
Thank you a lot,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Thank you, Peter, for this:
 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > 
> We do not use J2EE as Cocoon datasources directly. 
> Our application logic is
> invoked as Cocoon generators, Cocoon actions and in
> some cases as XSLT
> extensions.  All of our code, in theory, could be
> ported to a framework
> other than Cocoon, the only issue being replacing
> the sitemap  (most likely
> that would be done as explicit switch statements in
> a servlet) and in fact
> started life running from a highly modified version
> of the LotusXSL servlet
> many years ago...  As a result, the application code
> invokes the J2EE code
> through proxy classes.  The J2EE code then resolves
> any other datasources
> from the jBoss JNDI definitions and Cocoon is not
> aware of what is going on.
Seems like very nice and scallable solution for me,
but I still have lasting questions:
a) Did you ever try to migrate to JBoss 3x?
b) Do you have to write the proxies for every EJB
manually or is there automatized solution?
c) Are you able to use load balancing and other
administration of JBoss fully with no negatives on
running system?
d) Do the efforts with J2EE pay off really better
performance and manageability against simple Tomcat
approach according your experience?
e) Do you use JBoss in any custom or standarized means
also for authentification and authorisation for Cocoon
resources or would it be too complicated to implement?
Last, but not least:
f) Would you be so nice to post some (almost out of
the box) working demo illustrating your application
workflow?
I think I'm going to owe you much :)
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Argyn Kuketayev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:35 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: sexy open source
>  
> > My BIG
> > question is - HOW DO YOU ACCESS EJBs FROM COCOON?
> 
> the same way as from any other servlet container or
> client, I guess.
I thought that, there is hardly any other possibility
AFAIK.
> I wouldn't put EJB calls inside lgicsheet itself in
> XSP, probably. I'd use
> helper classes.
Please, see me as a newbie and give me some code!
a) Explain if there is really working possibility to
have J2EE datasource in cocoon's web.xml alone so one
could access it directly or is it bad idea as such?
b) What are the interfaces of these classes, do you
have to write them manually, what do you need to
deploy them into running system (if possible), do you
use xsp:logic to declare and access them from Cocoon?
> from regular components, such as generators, lookup
> JNDI and do whatever you
> do in your regular client EJB code.
How do you configure JNDI for that? What is the whole
big scenario you are using EJBs in?
I hope you'll be generous with us :)
Thank you in advance,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> I don't care for JBoss that much but would like to
> have J2EE for business logic scalability. My BIG
> question is - HOW DO YOU ACCESS EJBs FROM COCOON?
> Please, give us your secrets!

Didn't I just answer this?  Nothing special is required: define your EJB's
to jBoss as normal. Deploy the EJBs along with the Cocoon servlet as part of
an ear through jBoss.  The Cocoon code can then see anything in the EJB jar.
We mostly use proxy code to wrap the EJB references, but you could call them
directly from your code.  

We do cache our EJB references using code like:

 Foo foo = (Foo)EJBUtil.getFooBLHome().create().getFoo(fData);

Where EJBUtil has code like:

public static FooBLHome getFooBLHome()
   throws BackEndException {
  try {
 return
(FooBLHome)ResourceFactory.getFactory().lookUpHome(FooBLHome.class);
  } catch (NamingException e) {
 throw new BackEndException(e.getMessage());
  }
   }

and ResourceFactory is just a singleton that keeps a hash map of the
references.  No need to jump through these hoops if you're not pounding on
the EJB references a lot...


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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

>> Java 1.4 works fine with C 2.0.3
>OK, I will give it a try right now. What about C2.1
>(just that little satan inside me)?

Sorry, haven't tried it...
 
> Do you use J2EE as datasource in
> Cocoon to cooperate with JBoss regarding business
> logic? Please, please, elaborate on it!

We do not use J2EE as Cocoon datasources directly.  Our application logic is
invoked as Cocoon generators, Cocoon actions and in some cases as XSLT
extensions.  All of our code, in theory, could be ported to a framework
other than Cocoon, the only issue being replacing the sitemap  (most likely
that would be done as explicit switch statements in a servlet) and in fact
started life running from a highly modified version of the LotusXSL servlet
many years ago...  As a result, the application code invokes the J2EE code
through proxy classes.  The J2EE code then resolves any other datasources
from the jBoss JNDI definitions and Cocoon is not aware of what is going on.


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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi Artur,

 --- Artur Bialecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > 
> All I'm saying is that logicsheets which are used
> during
> generation of server pages are not the best palce to
> call J2EE business logic. EJBs can throw many
> exceptions
> and by the time you get to generation all you can 
> do is transform on your errors so in the simplest
> form
> your stylesheet must be able to handle all possible
> errors
> generated on the given page. I consider an internal
> redirection
> much better approach to handling errors, e.g. On
> error I can
> redirect back to the original form. Gets even worse
> if you
> EJBs have input on which stylesheet to use, e.g. If
> inventory item
> foo (business object) has stylehseet hint then use
> it, otherwise
> use default_inventory_item.xsl.
> Way I can get around this is to process my XSP which
> uses logicsheets
> with calls to J2EE beans before generation starts.
I have to try to understand twice your advanced
description, but in summary it looks like you invested
much time to find the solution and yet there is
something what disturbs you, right? Could you post
some source code snipets to hungry wolves here? Could
you elaborate more on your current and ideal solution,
pros and cons? I know your time is valuable, but maybe
there will be some benefits for you too.
Thank you in advance,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> * XML Editor for Content Editing:
>   Xopus 2 (http://www.xopus.org/)

Did they released the beta version of Xopus2 yet?

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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source







> -Original Message-
> From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
 
> My BIG
> question is - HOW DO YOU ACCESS EJBs FROM COCOON?


the same way as from any other servlet container or client, I guess.
I wouldn't put EJB calls inside lgicsheet itself in XSP, probably. I'd use helper classes.


from regular components, such as generators, lookup JNDI and do whatever you do in your regular client EJB code.

RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source







> -Original Message-
> From: I-Lin Kuo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:28 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source


> Another drawback is that the Java API provided by Oracle is 
> for 1.2, thus 
> lacking regular expression support.


not an issue, ORO is no worse than Jdk 1.4's regexps

RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi folks,

I don't care for JBoss that much but would like to
have J2EE for business logic scalability. My BIG
question is - HOW DO YOU ACCESS EJBs FROM COCOON?
Please, give us your secrets!
Thanks,
Peter.
 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > > I always deploy EJBs "manually". jBoss is
easier
> to write deployment
> descriptors, yes. otherwise there's not much
> difference. 
> 
> Why on earth would you do manual deploys?  ANT is
> sexy!  We do a ANT build
> that automatically deploys a new EAR through jBoss. 
> In 90 seconds I can
> have a complete new build running with no manual
> intervention other than to
> invoke ANT.  That includes over 300 Java files in
> the EJB source (including
> data classes) and another 120 or so on the
> application side. Having jBoss
> hot deploy your EJB's and your application is one of
> those things that makes
> incremental development a reality...
>  

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Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Antonio Gallardo Rivera
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Vegan:
> 
> Can you publish at the end of this survey the
> results?
Sure, I'm eager to do it ASAP.

> I am newbie too. I am currently ending the last
> course of a serie of 3 
> tutorials about Cocoon in the IBM website. ;)
You mean the articles available after registration at 
https://www6.software.ibm.com/developerworks/education/x-cocoon/x-cocoon-6-1.html?

> need to end a new 
> application using Cocoon for Sept. 1. Nice, right? I
> am working 18 hours 
> dialy to meet the date. :)
Oh yes, I have two months more but probably more
complicated application. I wish you (an me) all luck!

Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> To add to this.
> 
> Oracle 9i now has a native XMLType which is really a CLOB. 
> However, it 
> doesn't have the normal limitations of a CLOB -- you can use 
> XPATH for 
> selection and for indexing, a great improvement in my 
> opinion. However, a 
> drawback remains in that you are still unable to select 
> individual nodes and 
> attributes within the CLOB, so your SQL has to return the 
> document as a 
> whole.

I disagree.
XMLType is a abstraction of how the XML is "really" stored.
XMLType is (by default) CLOB. And XPath are real XPath expressions applied
on that CLOB.

But if you use schema-based storage, you can have your XML internally stored
into SQL tables. And XPath queries are rewritten (yes yes!) into
corresponding
SQL equivalent.

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RE: sexy open source

[I-Lin Kuo]

To add to this.

Oracle 9i now has a native XMLType which is really a CLOB. However, it 
doesn't have the normal limitations of a CLOB -- you can use XPATH for 
selection and for indexing, a great improvement in my opinion. However, a 
drawback remains in that you are still unable to select individual nodes and 
attributes within the CLOB, so your SQL has to return the document as a 
whole.

Another drawback is that the Java API provided by Oracle is for 1.2, thus 
lacking regular expression support.

Also, XML has to be updated as a whole, as Oracle still has nothing like 
XUpdate.

Oracle is catching up to Xindice but still a ways back, in my opinion.

>From: ROSSEL Olivier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: sexy open source
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:10:03 +0200
>
> > >I am currently studying XML DB features of Oracle 9iR2.
> > >It is quite impressive.
> > >Very very advanced stuff !!!
> > >
> > How it compares to Tamino and Xindice? What are the cool
> > features (in a
> > nutshell ;)?
>
>I dunno Tamino.
>I hope I will have the time to test Xindice.
>
>Oracle 9iR2 has a XML repository accesible vie Webdav, HTTP and FTP.
>It handles foldering, versionning.
>
>It has schema validation system, and (automatic or manual) schema-based
>XML-SQL mapping.
>XPath functions are accessible inside SQL queries. And queries can provide
>XML as output.
>
>I am currently investigating mapping SQL queries to HTTP URLs.
>So we can use a simple Http generator to get XML from Oracle.
>
>This is a (very) simplified overview.
>
>I have not made stretch test yet.


I-Lin Kuo
Macromedia Certified ColdFusion 5.0 Advanced Developer
Sun Certified Java 2 Programmer
Ann Arbor, MI


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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
schrieb: > >> > 2) Programming language
> Java 1.4 works fine with C 2.0.3
OK, I will give it a try right now. What about C2.1
(just that little satan inside me)?
 
> >> > 5) Web container
> >> > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> >> More people are familiar with Tomcat.
> >Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that
> much.
> >Again, fault of using JBoss at all?
> JBoss works fine with Tomcat we use JBoss 2.4.4 with
> Tomcat 4.0.4. Start
> with the integrated build, copy the newer Tomcat on
> top of the Catalina
> directory.
Yes, it worked also for me (with some customization
because of XML parser), but I wanted to use JBoss
3.0.1 and then it was dead end to integrate Cocoon.
But I'm very curious: Do you use J2EE as datasource in
Cocoon to cooperate with JBoss regarding business
logic? Please, please, elaborate on it!

> >> > 8) Web frontend
> >> > Proposal: Apache
> >> Not needed. 
> >Is configuring Tomcat secure enough for example in
> >case of DoS attacks?
> Apache is probably reasonable for a production
> environment.  In particular,
> for serving static content it would be better than
> Tomcat.
I don't plan to have any static content, because all
of the design (at least) should go through Cocoon XSL
transformer. Anyway, I think it is reasonable
(although not required) to have Apache as frontend
sitting on HTTP and HTTPS just because it is the most
stable and tested web server and also sites other than
those from Cocoon could be put in separate subdomain..
Does anyone use pure Tomcat on production site with
success?
Thank you for your valuable responses,
Peter.

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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: Message



I 
meant "manually" meaning "not with GUI deplpoyers". sorry, for misunderstanding. 
of course we use Ant, when it's possible

  -Original Message-From: Hunsberger, Peter 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 
  2002 10:32 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: 
  RE: sexy open source
  
  > I 
  always deploy EJBs "manually". jBoss is easier to write deployment 
  descriptors, yes. otherwise there's not much 
  difference. 
  Why on earth would you do manual 
  deploys?  ANT is sexy!  
  

RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> >I am currently studying XML DB features of Oracle 9iR2.
> >It is quite impressive.
> >Very very advanced stuff !!!
> >
> How it compares to Tamino and Xindice? What are the cool 
> features (in a 
> nutshell ;)?

I dunno Tamino.
I hope I will have the time to test Xindice.

Oracle 9iR2 has a XML repository accesible vie Webdav, HTTP and FTP.
It handles foldering, versionning.

It has schema validation system, and (automatic or manual) schema-based
XML-SQL mapping.
XPath functions are accessible inside SQL queries. And queries can provide 
XML as output.

I am currently investigating mapping SQL queries to HTTP URLs.
So we can use a simple Http generator to get XML from Oracle.

This is a (very) simplified overview.

I have not made stretch test yet.

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RE: sexy open source

[Artur Bialecki]

-Original Message-
From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:05 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: sexy open source

> -Original Message- 
> From: Artur Bialecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:02 AM 
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Subject: RE: sexy open source 
> Cocoon right now (2.0.3) has no good way to handle 
> errors generated by J2EE business logic. 
can you elaborate this in a little more details? I don't quite get what you mean by 
that, sorry 


All I'm saying is that logicsheets which are used during
generation of server pages are not the best palce to
call J2EE business logic. EJBs can throw many exceptions
and by the time you get to generation all you can 
do is transform on your errors so in the simplest form
your stylesheet must be able to handle all possible errors
generated on the given page. I consider an internal redirection
much better approach to handling errors, e.g. On error I can
redirect back to the original form. Gets even worse if you
EJBs have input on which stylesheet to use, e.g. If inventory item
foo (business object) has stylehseet hint then use it, otherwise
use default_inventory_item.xsl.
Way I can get around this is to process my XSP which uses logicsheets
with calls to J2EE beans before generation starts.

Artur...


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Re: sexy open source

[Vadim Gritsenko]

ROSSEL Olivier wrote:

>I am currently studying XML DB features of Oracle 9iR2.
>It is quite impressive.
>Very very advanced stuff !!!
>
How it compares to Tamino and Xindice? What are the cool features (in a 
nutshell ;)?

Vadim


>Buy some RAM and let's go :-)
> 
>PS: BTW? what's the price of Oracle? :-)
> 
>
>-Message d'origine-
>De: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Date: mercredi 14 août 2002 15:05
>À: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
>Objet: RE: sexy open source
>
>
>
>RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. 
>cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
>while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
>better than anything.
>  
>
...



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RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

> >>>8) Web frontend
> >>>Proposal: Apache
> >>>Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> >>>of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> >>>more of you are using it, true?
> >>
> >>Not needed.
> > 
> > Not needed
> 
> Can somebody explain how to run Tomcat on port 80 under user with no 
> root priviledges?

Under Linux, you can use VERY simple iptables rules.
And there are free tools to make that too.
And patches so you can declare ports under 1024 to be accessible to non-root
people.

Open source your mind!

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RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

 --- Manos Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > 
> From: Argyn Kuketayev
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> 
> > business doesn't care about opennes as 
> > much as about performance and features. 
> 
> The first thing business cares about is not profit
> or performance; it's
> survival. To survive in today's business
> environment, one needs to find
> a balance between cost, efficiency flexibility etc.
> A business must also
> serve the general interest of the public, as the
> public's opinion is
> essential to it's survival.
So true. I'm most experienced in Oracle and I love it,
but my current project budget doesn't allow me to buy
a licence (I think). I 100% agree that Oracle is the
best choice (DB2 and Informix almost as good), but I
have to look for reasonable open source alternative. I
hope that Oracle (as announced) changes its licence
policy the way that the use of their software could be
paid after the application is released and bringing
commercial incomes.
In hope,
Peter.

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Re: sexy open source

[Vadim Gritsenko]

Antonio Gallardo Rivera wrote:
> The same here! ;)
> 
> El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:02, Manos Batsis escribió:
> 
>>>From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

...

>>>8) Web frontend
>>>Proposal: Apache
>>>Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
>>>of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
>>>more of you are using it, true?
>>
>>Not needed.
> 
> Not needed

Can somebody explain how to run Tomcat on port 80 under user with no 
root priviledges?

Vadim

...


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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

Title: Message




> I 
always deploy EJBs "manually". jBoss is easier to write deployment descriptors, 
yes. otherwise there's not much 
difference. 
Why on earth would you do manual deploys?  ANT is 
sexy!  We do a ANT build that automatically deploys a new EAR through 
jBoss.  In 90 seconds I can have a complete new build running 
with no manual intervention other than to invoke ANT.  That includes 
over 300 Java files in the EJB source (including data 
classes) and another 120 or so on the application side. Having jBoss hot 
deploy your EJB's and your application is one of those things that makes 
incremental development a 
reality...

Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

Vegan:

Can you publish at the end of this survey the results?

I think many people here want to know about that. ;)

I am newbie too. I am currently ending the last course of a serie of 3 
tutorials about Cocoon in the IBM website. ;) And I need to end a new 
application using Cocoon for Sept. 1. Nice, right? I am working 18 hours 
dialy to meet the date. :)

Regards,

Antonio.

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 08:12, Vegan Portal escribió:
> Hi Manos,
>  --- Manos Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >
>
> > > 2) Programming language
> > > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> >
> > 1.4 is better IMHO.
>
> Well, it should be, but I've seen several people here
> reporting problems already with Cocoon alone, not to
> mention other components. Maybe these are minor and
> because many people are on it, 1.4 is really way to
> go. Should it try it out today? What version of Cocoon
> to take?
>
> > > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> >
> > I vote for PostgreSQL.
>
> I did not get PostgreSQL working under JBoss, probably
> my fault or the fault of using JBoss at all. I also
> like PostgreSQL more, but then: What free DB
> Management for Linux/Windows do you use?
>
> > > 5) Web container
> > > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> >
> > More people are familiar with Tomcat.
>
> Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that much.
> Again, fault of using JBoss at all?
>
> > > dynamically created using SVG (anybody?)
> >
> > Sure ;-)
>
> You are probably ironic here regarding the complexity
> of SVG. But if it could spare the great deal of
> designers work on creating reusable vector-based
> graphics that are then serialized to appropriate
> format, depending on client capabilities. I've put
> some very simple SVG generation together and it is an
> inferno, but I dream about making it mature enough for
> production, although I'm afraid the results may be not
> worth the time put into it and designers love their
> Adobe/Gimp .and hate XML.
>
> > > 8) Web frontend
> > > Proposal: Apache
> >
> > Not needed.
>
> Is configuring Tomcat secure enough for example in
> case of DoS attacks?
>
> > > Project Management: PHPMyProject
> >
> > No files released. Try phpcollab.
>
> True. Thank you for suggestion.
>
> > I'd be happy to jusm in if this gets attention.
> > However, if this is
> > going to be serious, I wouldn't settle for less than
> > two months of
> > design/documentation/prototyping before actually
> > starting
> > implementations.
> > Besides, I'm sure many people may have great ideas
> > on this.
>
> You mean some group of crazy people should be put
> together and make the ultimate environment true? I'm
> for it! More than I ever dreamed of before...
>
> > Perhaps the common aim will be a strong customizable
> > code base for
> > web-based, multiuser applications.
>
> Exactly. Thank you very much for speaking out.
>
> See you,
> Peter.
>
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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

>> > 2) Programming language
>> > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
>> 1.4 is better IMHO.
>Well, it should be, but I've seen several people here
>reporting problems already with Cocoon alone, not to
>mention other components. Maybe these are minor and
>because many people are on it, 1.4 is really way to
>go. Should it try it out today? What version of Cocoon
>to take?

Java 1.4 works fine with C 2.0.3

>> > 5) Web container
>> > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
>> More people are familiar with Tomcat.
>Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that much.
>Again, fault of using JBoss at all?

JBoss works fine with Tomcat we use JBoss 2.4.4 with Tomcat 4.0.4. Start
with the integrated build, copy the newer Tomcat on top of the Catalina
directory.

>> > 8) Web frontend
>> > Proposal: Apache
>> Not needed. 
>Is configuring Tomcat secure enough for example in
>case of DoS attacks?

Apache is probably reasonable for a production environment.  In particular,
for serving static content it would be better than Tomcat.


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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: Message



agree, 
DB2 is not bad. I meant that sexy bunch of software is not to be 100% open. why 
would I want open RDBMS? I've no clue in inner workings of databases, I'll never 
ever open the hood, I promise. in fact, Oracle, MS SQL server and DB2 are 
probably equally good choices. for development you may get them for free, I 
guess.
 
I 
always deploy EJBs "manually". jBoss is easier to write deployment descriptors, 
yes. otherwise there's not much difference. 

  -Original Message-From: Hunsberger, Peter 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 
  2002 10:14 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: 
  RE: sexy open source
  One 
  could certainly argue that DB2 is as sexy or sexier than Oracle; the fact that 
  Oracle 8 lacks true outer join makes it down right ugly if you ask me... 
  In any case, my real reason for responding is to say that I would consider 
  jBoss "sexy" anyone that's had to do a manual EJB deploy using something other 
  than JBoss is likely to agree...
  
-Original Message-From: Argyn Kuketayev 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 
    2002 8:11 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: 
RE: sexy open source
subj was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open 
source" RDBMS comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL 
Server.
 
Ok, Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed. 
 
business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and 
features. 
 
Cocoon is sexy too, btw
jBoss is not.

  -Original Message-From: Manos Batsis 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: sexy 
  open source
  Argyn, 
  
   
  Err... 
  the subject says "open source".
   
  I don't 
  think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what doesn't, so I 
  just won't.
   
  Manos
  

-Original Message-From: Argyn 
Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:05 PMTo: 
'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: sexy open 
source
RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. 
cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to 
the cost of one DBA. while at the same time performance and other 
features of Oracle are far better than anything.
> 4) Business Logic Persistence > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service 
jBoss sucks, imho. 
  

Re: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi Antonio,

 --- Antonio Gallardo Rivera
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > The
same here! ;)
> I also use jEdit (http://www.jEdit.org)a nice open
> source editor. I use it to 
> edit XML.
I'm downloading it right now to test it out.
Thank you, Antonio.
Peter.
PS: If this thread goes to some nice results, I will
write down the summary.

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RE: sexy open source

[Hunsberger, Peter]

Title: Message



One 
could certainly argue that DB2 is as sexy or sexier than Oracle; the fact that 
Oracle 8 lacks true outer join makes it down right ugly if you ask me... In 
any case, my real reason for responding is to say that I would consider jBoss 
"sexy" anyone that's had to do a manual EJB deploy using something other than 
JBoss is likely to agree...

  -Original Message-From: Argyn Kuketayev 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 
  2002 8:11 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: 
  RE: sexy open source
  subj 
  was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source" RDBMS 
  comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
   
  Ok, 
  Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed. 
   
  business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and 
  features. 
   
  Cocoon is sexy too, btw
  jBoss is not.
  
-Original Message-From: Manos Batsis 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 
    AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: sexy 
open source
Argyn, 

 
Err... 
the subject says "open source".
 
I don't 
think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what doesn't, so I 
just won't.
 
Manos

  
  -Original Message-From: Argyn 
  Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 
  August 14, 2002 4:05 PMTo: 
  '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: sexy open 
  source
  RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. 
  cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the 
  cost of one DBA. while at the same time performance and other features of 
  Oracle are far better than anything.
  > 4) Business Logic Persistence > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service 
  jBoss sucks, imho. 

RE: sexy open source

[Vegan Portal]

Hi Manos,
 --- Manos Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > 
> > 2) Programming language
> > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> 1.4 is better IMHO.
Well, it should be, but I've seen several people here
reporting problems already with Cocoon alone, not to
mention other components. Maybe these are minor and
because many people are on it, 1.4 is really way to
go. Should it try it out today? What version of Cocoon
to take?

> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> I vote for PostgreSQL.
I did not get PostgreSQL working under JBoss, probably
my fault or the fault of using JBoss at all. I also
like PostgreSQL more, but then: What free DB
Management for Linux/Windows do you use?

> > 5) Web container
> > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> More people are familiar with Tomcat.
Me too! Just that ... JBoss doesn't like it that much.
Again, fault of using JBoss at all?

> > dynamically created using SVG (anybody?)
> Sure ;-)
You are probably ironic here regarding the complexity
of SVG. But if it could spare the great deal of
designers work on creating reusable vector-based
graphics that are then serialized to appropriate
format, depending on client capabilities. I've put
some very simple SVG generation together and it is an
inferno, but I dream about making it mature enough for
production, although I'm afraid the results may be not
worth the time put into it and designers love their
Adobe/Gimp .and hate XML.

> > 8) Web frontend
> > Proposal: Apache
> Not needed. 
Is configuring Tomcat secure enough for example in
case of DoS attacks?

> > Project Management: PHPMyProject
> No files released. Try phpcollab.
True. Thank you for suggestion.

> I'd be happy to jusm in if this gets attention.
> However, if this is
> going to be serious, I wouldn't settle for less than
> two months of
> design/documentation/prototyping before actually
> starting
> implementations.
> Besides, I'm sure many people may have great ideas
> on this.
You mean some group of crazy people should be put
together and make the ultimate environment true? I'm
for it! More than I ever dreamed of before...

> Perhaps the common aim will be a strong customizable
> code base for
> web-based, multiuser applications.
Exactly. Thank you very much for speaking out.

See you,
Peter.

__

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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source







> -Original Message-
> From: Artur Bialecki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:02 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source


> Cocoon right now (2.0.3) has no good way to handle 
> errors generated by J2EE business logic. 


can you elaborate this in a little more details? I don't quite get what you mean by that, sorry

RE: sexy open source

[Artur Bialecki]

> -Original Message-
> From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
>
> 7) Content Framework
> Proposal: Cocoon, what else :)
> Remarks: The task of Cocoon is to separate Logic from
> Design, what it should be good at. I want to get more
> detailed here: Starting with structured XSP,
> xincluding or transforming (what is better?) parts of
> final site together, using taglib logicsheets for
> access to business logic that is delegated to J2EE
> (did anybody here got it working?), other taglib for

Cocoon right now (2.0.3) has no good way to handle 
errors generated by J2EE business logic. I have 
logicsheets that access J2EE beans but I have
to process my XSP with action before the generation
starts so I can do something real whith errors.

Artur...


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Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

Hey this look nice! Is this opensource?

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:43, Johann Romefort escribió:
> > 8) Web frontend
> > Proposal: Apache
> > Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> > of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> > more of you are using it, true?
> > 9) Suporting Tools
> > XML editor: ??? (I use several or write the XML from
> > scratch)
> > XSL editor: ??? (Did not find good free one)
>
> Try sunBow plugin for Eclipse:
>
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0108489/
>
> from the webiste:
>
> * Enhanced XML-Editor: completion proposals for tags generated from
> associated XML schemas, automatically insertion of closing tags, formatting
> the XML document dependant on adjustable parameters
> * Sitemap editor: directly open referenced files from the editor, Drag and
> Drop support with schema validation
> * pipeline-testing: execute HTTP requests or Apache Latka scripts from the
> workbench
> * Cocoon log-level configuration
> * management of sitemap fragments in the sitemap editor
> * breakpoints in the XSLT debugger
>
> johann
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
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Re: sexy open source

[Johann Romefort]

> 8) Web frontend
> Proposal: Apache
> Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> more of you are using it, true?
> 9) Suporting Tools
> XML editor: ??? (I use several or write the XML from
> scratch)
> XSL editor: ??? (Did not find good free one)

Try sunBow plugin for Eclipse:

http://radio.weblogs.com/0108489/

from the webiste:

* Enhanced XML-Editor: completion proposals for tags generated from
associated XML schemas, automatically insertion of closing tags, formatting
the XML document dependant on adjustable parameters
* Sitemap editor: directly open referenced files from the editor, Drag and
Drop support with schema validation
* pipeline-testing: execute HTTP requests or Apache Latka scripts from the
workbench
* Cocoon log-level configuration
* management of sitemap fragments in the sitemap editor
* breakpoints in the XSLT debugger

johann


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Re: sexy open source

[Johann Romefort]

I am really happy with SAP-DB / Castor for RDBMS Persistence

Johann



- Original Message -
From: "Antonio Gallardo Rivera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: sexy open source


I recommend you try PostgreSQL.

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:11, Argyn Kuketayev escribió:
> subj was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source"
> RDBMS comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
>
> Ok, Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed.
>
> business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and
> features.
>
> Cocoon is sexy too, btw
> jBoss is not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Manos Batsis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
> Argyn,
>
> Err... the subject says "open source".
>
> I don't think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what
> doesn't, so I just won't.
>
> Manos
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:05 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
>
> RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> better than anything.
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
>
> jBoss sucks, imho.

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Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

I recommend you try PostgreSQL.

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:11, Argyn Kuketayev escribió:
> subj was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source"
> RDBMS comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
>
> Ok, Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed.
>
> business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and
> features.
>
> Cocoon is sexy too, btw
> jBoss is not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Manos Batsis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
> Argyn,
>
> Err... the subject says "open source".
>
> I don't think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what
> doesn't, so I just won't.
>
> Manos
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:05 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: sexy open source
>
>
>
> RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> better than anything.
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
>
> jBoss sucks, imho.

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Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

How they can compare Firebird to Postgresql? PostgreSQL is superior!



El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:07, ROSSEL Olivier escribió:
> I am currently studying XML DB features of Oracle 9iR2.
> It is quite impressive.
> Very very advanced stuff !!!
> Buy some RAM and let's go :-)
>
> PS: BTW? what's the price of Oracle? :-)
>
>
> -Message d'origine-
> De: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Date: mercredi 14 août 2002 15:05
> À: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Objet: RE: sexy open source
>
>
>
> RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> better than anything.
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
>
> jBoss sucks, imho.
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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RE: sexy open source

[Manos Batsis]

From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 

> business doesn't care about opennes as 
> much as about performance and features. 

The first thing business cares about is not profit or performance; it's
survival. To survive in today's business environment, one needs to find
a balance between cost, efficiency flexibility etc. A business must also
serve the general interest of the public, as the public's opinion is
essential to it's survival.

Different views and contexts of course, bring different decisions.

Manos

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Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:05, Argyn Kuketayev escribió:
> RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
> cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
> while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
> better than anything.
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
>
> jBoss sucks, imho.

I agree! ;)

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Re: sexy open source

[Antonio Gallardo Rivera]

The same here! ;)

El Miércoles, 14 de Agosto de 2002 07:02, Manos Batsis escribió:
> > From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > 2) Programming language
> > Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> > Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> > may still take some time to be able to be used for
> > production sites. Moreover, many open source
> > technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> > if I'm wrong.
>
> 1.4 is better IMHO.
1.4
>
> > 4) Business Logic Persistence
> > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> > Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> > open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> > nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next good
> > candidate could be PostgreSQL - with more user
> > support, so maybe better solution. Any ideas?
>
> I vote for PostgreSQL.
PostgreSQL
>
> > 5) Web container
> > Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> > Remarks: I know Tomcat is more used, but Jetty is
> > easier to be integrated into JBoss and both offer
> > similar if not same functionality. This is a point I
> > would like to discuss further.
>
> More people are familiar with Tomcat.
Tomcat
>
> > dynamically created using SVG (anybody?)
>
> Sure ;-)
Yes
>
> > 8) Web frontend
> > Proposal: Apache
> > Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> > of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> > more of you are using it, true?
>
> Not needed.
Not needed
>
> > Project Management: PHPMyProject (or other web-based
> > solution?)
>
> No files released. Try phpcollab.
I also use jEdit (http://www.jEdit.org)a nice open source editor. I use it to 
edit XML.
>
> I'd be happy to jusm in if this gets attention. However, if this is
> going to be serious, I wouldn't settle for less than two months of
> design/documentation/prototyping before actually starting
> implementations.
> Besides, I'm sure many people may have great ideas on this.
>
> Perhaps the common aim will be a strong customizable code base for
> web-based, multiuser applications.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Manos
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: Message



subj 
was "sexy open source". I don't think that there's "sexy open source" RDBMS 
comparing to Oracle, or even MS SQL Server.
 
Ok, 
Apache is sexy, comparing to IIS indeed. 
 
business doesn't care about opennes as much as about performance and 
features. 
 
Cocoon 
is sexy too, btw
jBoss 
is not.

  -Original Message-From: Manos Batsis 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:09 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: sexy open 
  source
  Argyn, 
  
   
  Err... the 
  subject says "open source".
   
  I don't 
  think there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what doesn't, so I just 
  won't.
   
  Manos
  

-Original Message-From: Argyn 
Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 
August 14, 2002 4:05 PMTo: 
'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: sexy open 
source
RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. 
cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the 
cost of one DBA. while at the same time performance and other features of 
Oracle are far better than anything.
> 4) Business Logic Persistence > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service 
jBoss sucks, imho. 

RE: sexy open source

[Manos Batsis]

Title: Message



Argyn, 

 
Err... the 
subject says "open source".
 
I don't think 
there is a point in arguing about what sucks and what doesn't, so I just 
won't.
 
Manos

  
  -Original Message-From: Argyn Kuketayev 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 
  2002 4:05 PMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: 
  RE: sexy open source
  RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one 
  DBA. while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far 
  better than anything.
  > 4) Business Logic Persistence > Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service 
  jBoss sucks, imho. 

RE: sexy open source

[ROSSEL Olivier]

I am currently studying XML DB features of Oracle 9iR2.
It is quite impressive.
Very very advanced stuff !!!
Buy some RAM and let's go :-)
 
PS: BTW? what's the price of Oracle? :-)
 

-Message d'origine-
De: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Date: mercredi 14 août 2002 15:05
À: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Objet: RE: sexy open source



RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho. 
cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA.
while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far
better than anything.


> 4) Business Logic Persistence 
> Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service 

jBoss sucks, imho. 


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RE: sexy open source

[Argyn Kuketayev]

Title: RE: sexy open source





RDBMS must be Oracle. no other options, imho.
cost is not a problem. it's negligeable comparing to the cost of one DBA. while at the same time performance and other features of Oracle are far better than anything.


> 4) Business Logic Persistence
> Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service


jBoss sucks, imho.

RE: sexy open source

[Manos Batsis]

> From: Vegan Portal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 

> 2) Programming language
> Proposal: pure Java 1.3.1x
> Remarks: I know many of you are trying 1.4 out, but it
> may still take some time to be able to be used for
> production sites. Moreover, many open source
> technologies were still not ported to 1.4. Correct me
> if I'm wrong.

1.4 is better IMHO.


> 4) Business Logic Persistence
> Proposal: Firebird RDBMS as JBoss service
> Remarks: I personally think it is most evolved
> open-source database now. The problem is, almost
> nobody uses it, the JDBC driver is beta etc. Next good
> candidate could be PostgreSQL - with more user
> support, so maybe better solution. Any ideas?

I vote for PostgreSQL.

> 5) Web container
> Proposal: Jetty as JBoss service
> Remarks: I know Tomcat is more used, but Jetty is
> easier to be integrated into JBoss and both offer
> similar if not same functionality. This is a point I
> would like to discuss further.

More people are familiar with Tomcat. 



> dynamically created using SVG (anybody?)

Sure ;-)


> 8) Web frontend
> Proposal: Apache
> Remarks: This is only for security reasons - the task
> of Apache is just to forward the requests. I think
> more of you are using it, true?

Not needed. 



> Project Management: PHPMyProject (or other web-based
> solution?)

No files released. Try phpcollab.

I'd be happy to jusm in if this gets attention. However, if this is
going to be serious, I wouldn't settle for less than two months of
design/documentation/prototyping before actually starting
implementations.
Besides, I'm sure many people may have great ideas on this.

Perhaps the common aim will be a strong customizable code base for
web-based, multiuser applications.


Cheers,

Manos

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