10 or more phones order
Well, may be that i missed the answer but someone asked if the discount and the extra stuff are applied only to the 10 pack or it could also be a 12 pack? So to let you understand the condition is: if (phones_ordered == 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); or it is something like: if (phones_ordered = 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); ? :D Cya Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
from my understanding its the first :p but don't know.. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, may be that i missed the answer but someone asked if the discount and the extra stuff are applied only to the 10 pack or it could also be a 12 pack? So to let you understand the condition is: if (phones_ordered == 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); or it is something like: if (phones_ordered = 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); ? :D Cya Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will the Neo FreeRunner have a hold switch?
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:58:17 +0700 Alexander Frøyseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hey all I just wonder if the Neo will have a hold switch. A switch that locks the screen. no. it has 2 buttons. 1 power and 1 aux. same as gta01. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On Mon, April 28, 2008 4:27 pm, Flyin_bbb8 wrote: from my understanding its the first :p but don't know.. My understanding is that there will be two different things that you can buy. - a single phone. - a pack of 10 phones. You can buy multiples of each. If you like, you can be 10 lots of a single phone. but this would be more expensive than 1 lot of a pack of 10 phones. You cannot but a pack of 12 phones. You would need either a pack of 10 phones plus 2 lots of a single phone, or 2 lots of a pack of 10 phones (which would leave you with some spares). NeilBrown On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, may be that i missed the answer but someone asked if the discount and the extra stuff are applied only to the 10 pack or it could also be a 12 pack? So to let you understand the condition is: if (phones_ordered == 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); or it is something like: if (phones_ordered = 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); ? :D Cya Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Weekly Wiki Page Views
To all: Here is the wiki weekly page views and editing events. The number is from Google Analytics. WIKI Page View Period Page Views Event 24~30, Mar 18,274 1. Started to put the google analyic on wik 2. Editing Index page 31,Mar~6,April 18,101 1.Make the pages into right categories 7~13,April 19,166 1.Chinese Traslation Plan 14~20,April 23,313 1.Started Edit Main Page 21~26,April(6DAY) 23,066 1.Edit Menu Bar 2.Switched Main page New visitor is 58.76% Returning visitor is is 41.24% Regards Brenda ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
10 PACK UPDATE!!!
Shachar, Please include me in the Israeli buying group. Maybe we should open a group page in openmoko wiki? Ofer * * ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will the Neo FreeRunner have a hold switch?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:58:17 +0700 Alexander Frøyseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hey all I just wonder if the Neo will have a hold switch. A switch that locks the screen. no. it has 2 buttons. 1 power and 1 aux. same as gta01. however, there will be a soft-screen lock, which requires a certain action to unlock the screen http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Display_Locker taking this further; if the neo's in my pocket, and the screen is touched, does the processor enter a higher state, i.e. consume more power, or does that only happen when the screen is unlocked? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
2008/4/28 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I am organizing one in South Tyrol. I want just to check all the person who said they want one (more then twenty), and then look how many more we need to come to a complete set of k*10 Neos. Probably i'll also buy something like 7 or 8 neos for my own to write custome software to then resell to specific companies. As soon as I know the exact number, i'll put it in the wiki :D great! I already placed my name in that wiki pageI'm the only one from Trentino...:(...it would be great to be able to place a 10 Neos order in our country!...much less shipping costs! I'm waiting for your name on the wiki! bye bye On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Pedro Aguilar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Sorry, I missed that page... Has anyone started organizing a 10 pack order? May be one in Milan and another one in Veneto? Even if it's only in Milan I would still be interested :) Bye, -- Pedro Aguilar On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 00:53 +0200, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: Pedro Aguilar ha scritto: Hi, I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) Regards, ?? hey look at the wiki :D we are more than 2, we can actually place 2 10pack order, one in milan, and the other one somwhereelse, or both in milan (there should be someone who can phisically do this) but, welcome, just leave your name in the wiki, i think that a good moment to organize the things is when someone will say Hey, the freerunner is in production stage. Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
Andrea Debortoli ha scritto: 2008/4/28 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: I am organizing one in South Tyrol. I want just to check all the person who said they want one (more then twenty), and then look how many more we need to come to a complete set of k*10 Neos. Probably i'll also buy something like 7 or 8 neos for my own to write custome software to then resell to specific companies. As soon as I know the exact number, i'll put it in the wiki :D I would also be interested: where should I sign on? pc -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
2008/4/28 Paolo Cavallini [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Andrea Debortoli ha scritto: 2008/4/28 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: I am organizing one in South Tyrol. I want just to check all the person who said they want one (more then twenty), and then look how many more we need to come to a complete set of k*10 Neos. Probably i'll also buy something like 7 or 8 neos for my own to write custome software to then resell to specific companies. As soon as I know the exact number, i'll put it in the wiki :D I would also be interested: where should I sign on? pc http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Italy -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko I guess you'd also need to modify DRI to coordinate with the x server? I know it's not going to happen because of time constraints, but wouldn't this be a better option than trying to bend xv into doing something it doesn't want to do? Cheers, Tom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: Well, may be that i missed the answer but someone asked if the discount and the extra stuff are applied only to the 10 pack or it could also be a 12 pack? So to let you understand the condition is: if (phones_ordered == 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); More like: if (phones_ordered phones_ordered % 10 == 0) do_the_10_pack_trick(); Steve has already mentioned on the list that ordering 11 phones means getting a bulk discount on the 10-pack, but paying full price on the stray 11th phone. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko Modify X server and the mplayer, when playing reserve the entire screen and mplayer write the decoded directly into the framebuffer. This is most straightforward and I have tested against on another platform. Actually, even when use XSHM extension in mplayer, the overhead of copy pixmap from mplayer to framebuffer is very big. Bin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
I just can't leave it like that. :-) if (phones_ordered % 10 * PRICE_1 PRICE_10_PACK) phones_ordered += 10 - phones_ordered % 10; Is this really necessary? what this code is for? And where are comments? :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:20:46 +0200, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, may be that i missed the answer but someone asked if the discount and the extra stuff are applied only to the 10 pack or it could also be a 12 pack? So to let you understand the condition is: if (phones_ordered == 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); More like: if (phones_ordered phones_ordered % 10 == 0) do_the_10_pack_trick(); I just can't leave it like that. :-) if (phones_ordered % 10 * PRICE_1 PRICE_10_PACK) phones_ordered += 10 - phones_ordered % 10; for (; phones_ordered = 10; phones_ordered -= 10) do_the_10_pack_trick(); for (; phones_ordered = 1; phones_ordered--) no_tricks_just_order_1(); -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
And why is it not in Python? On 4/28/08, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just can't leave it like that. :-) if (phones_ordered % 10 * PRICE_1 PRICE_10_PACK) phones_ordered += 10 - phones_ordered % 10; Is this really necessary? what this code is for? And where are comments? :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
Hello, put your name down here, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Group_Order warm regards James 2008/4/28 Ofer Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar, Please include me in the Israeli buying group. Maybe we should open a group page in openmoko wiki? Ofer ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Tel: 00447809457487 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And why is it not in Python? It would be too easy to read. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
That's the old page, the current one is: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales Monday 28 April 2008 skrev James Olney: Hello, put your name down here, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Group_Order warm regards James 2008/4/28 Ofer Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Shachar, Please include me in the Israeli buying group. Maybe we should open a group page in openmoko wiki? Ofer ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- ..Dan // Leinir.. http://www.leinir.dk/ Co- existence or no existence - Piet Hein ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 10:32:22 Bin Chen wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko Modify X server and the mplayer, when playing reserve the entire screen and mplayer write the decoded directly into the framebuffer. This is most straightforward and I have tested against on another platform. Nope, no way. With 7m/s video bandwidth your looking at a theoretical maximum of 12 fps, and that would use 100% CPU just for copying the data to the framebuffer. In fact, I believe that is the worst possible way of doing it. :-) For video playback you need to drop the bandwidth you use. Sending an MPEG4 stream would be ideal as it's about as compressed as it comes, you just (!) need to find a way to tell the glamo to decode it. Does the glamo support compressed texture formats? Could the CPU compress pixmaps, copy them to the video memory and then use the 3D core to decompress them when blitting? I know the compression will eat the CPU, but it might be worth it if it saves on bus bandwidth? Cheers, Tom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will the Neo FreeRunner have a hold switch?
On Monday 28 April 2008 09:37:14 robin paulson wrote: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:58:17 +0700 Alexander Frøyseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hey all I just wonder if the Neo will have a hold switch. A switch that locks the screen. no. it has 2 buttons. 1 power and 1 aux. same as gta01. however, there will be a soft-screen lock, which requires a certain action to unlock the screen http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Display_Locker taking this further; if the neo's in my pocket, and the screen is touched, does the processor enter a higher state, i.e. consume more power, or does that only happen when the screen is unlocked? Yes, if you need the device to do anything. If not, you may as well allow it to go into suspend where the main CPU is powered off. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
10 Pack in West Midlands, England?
Is anybody in the West Midlands interested in getting a 10 pack? Would be great to save that bit of money and get the extra goodies. Mo. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:28:56 +0200, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And why is it not in Python? It would be too easy to read. So why's it not in Perl then, You could do all that in a simple one-liner... ;o) Richard ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
So why's it not in Perl then, You could do all that in a simple one-liner... ;o) I don't know Perl :( But I could try to write on z/OS HLASM. Or Erlang... Btw, it could be simple one-liner in Python too. Like this: phone_count = 42 _orders = [BOX for _i in xrange(phone_count // 10)] + [SINGLE for _i in xrange(phone_count % 10)] print(Please, order %s % , .join(_orders)) Or if you want REALLY python one-liner: exec(eJwryMjPS41Pzi/NK1GwVTAx4orPL0pJLSoGcqKVnPwjlBTS8osU4jMVMvMUKooS89JTNQqQtOjrKxgaaMYqaANVB3v6ufu4EtCgClbPVVCUmVeioRSQk5pYnKqjALZTQbVYCSivpKOgpJeVn5mnAXWKpiYAGp0z4g==.decode(base64).decode(zip)) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
David Murrell wrote: Wait a minute... /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Technical:Accelerometer_Fundamentals gives some ideas. The basis of this is the accelerometer used in the wii - as that is about the sensitivity most of the best of the crop have. However, the freerunner has a resolution of 16mg (milligee) - compared to under 1 - for the numbers I used in this page. As to speed - essentially as fast as you read it. Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 5:56 a.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/26/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice if we can choose between input. Sometimes it is nice to use the touchscreen as a mice, while other times I would prefer the accelerometers (e.g. if you want to use the display to something else at the same time). ... and if you use the accelerometers, you can actually move the device just like if it was a mice:) That would be very cool. Tilting is also an alternative and should be implemented before this regular mice behavor thing, since it is a lot more easy to code. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 Pack in West Midlands, England?
Great, thanks! I have added a West Midlands section and put my name there, I noticed a couple of West Midlands names in the London section, but have left them there since I'm not sure what the rules of etiquette are for such situations. Mo. On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:33 +0100, James Olney wrote: Hey, yes put you name down here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#England i'm not sure how it's going to work. but if you put your name down we know you're interested. James 2008/4/28 Mo Abrahams [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is anybody in the West Midlands interested in getting a 10 pack? Would be great to save that bit of money and get the extra goodies. Mo. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
I think this would be great.. Ideally it would not decode it completely, but simply encode the video with some simpler compression... Another question: if we skip sound, would the decoding be faster? By how much? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: just thinking out loud here, for example maybe you have some short videos you want to show to some other people, so u can open an app that checks the amount of memory you have, then checks the amount it needs to do decoding. if it has enough it does the decoding (not at full speed) 'n lets u know when it's complete, then u can watch it 'n decide if u wanna watch it again or delete the decoded part from memory again... not sure if this is possible, not an expert here... On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:47 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
ramsesoriginal wrote: I think this would be great.. Ideally it would not decode it completely, but simply encode the video with some simpler compression... Another question: if we skip sound, would the decoding be faster? By how much? As a datapoint, most VCD class mpegs/avis I had around played just fine. (150kilobytes/second, 320*240 or so). Yes, they framedropped a bit, and ended up around 15-18fps. Without audio, it's much smoother, as audio decoding - in the mp3 case - used about 25% CPU. If the GTA01 would do rotation in hardware, then dropping to QVGA mode would be completely adequate. Of course, it can't - but this gives some idea. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? On Monday 28 April 2008 08:17:18 Flyin_bbb8 wrote: just thinking out loud here, for example maybe you have some short videos you want to show to some other people, so u can open an app that checks the amount of memory you have, then checks the amount it needs to do decoding. if it has enough it does the decoding (not at full speed) 'n lets u know when it's complete, then u can watch it 'n decide if u wanna watch it again or delete the decoded part from memory again... not sure if this is possible, not an expert here... On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:47 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? USB1.1 only (on the Freerunner) And they are not cheap. (presumably) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
Yeah, I had a look at the page, summed up rather well at the bottom - basically we're limited to somewhat coarse motor movements, unless one axis is restricted. I had an idea to strap it to my motorbike, start it logging, and go for a blat and see what the output is. Could be interwesting, and possibly expensive. Honestly officer, I was just trying to get some bigger acceleration numbers I'm probably over tired, but the concept of going over a particular type of bump in the car that makes your stomach feels like its just dropped, and having the phone play a w sound gives me a bit of a chuckle. Still, it shall be fun to play with, I don't doubt. TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Stirling Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 11:15 p.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) David Murrell wrote: Wait a minute... /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Technical:Accelerometer_Fundamentals gives some ideas. The basis of this is the accelerometer used in the wii - as that is about the sensitivity most of the best of the crop have. However, the freerunner has a resolution of 16mg (milligee) - compared to under 1 - for the numbers I used in this page. As to speed - essentially as fast as you read it. Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 5:56 a.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/26/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice if we can choose between input. Sometimes it is nice to use the touchscreen as a mice, while other times I would prefer the accelerometers (e.g. if you want to use the display to something else at the same time). ... and if you use the accelerometers, you can actually move the device just like if it was a mice:) That would be very cool. Tilting is also an alternative and should be implemented before this regular mice behavor thing, since it is a lot more easy to code. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
Andrea Debortoli ha scritto: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Italy Just 2 things, when someone insert his/her name should also update the number at the top, just under the city! Hey, we are 37 people!! :D Go go go go Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 15:12 +0300 schrieb Mikko Rauhala: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). I'm not sure whether the glamo is able to do mpeg-4 decoding. I just watched the website of this chip (http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm) and there you can read the following: The Glamo3365 Mobile Multimedia coProcessor boasts a 5M pixels digital photo resolution image processor. The MPEG4 codec enables 30 frames per second in up to VGA resolution, producing life-like video quality on a mobile phone display. There is nothing about the 3362 (used in FR), isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong... Sebastian Billaudelle Please do not send me any Microsoft Office documents - I won't accept them! See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more information! Sorry! signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On 4/28/08, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ilja O. ha scritto:
So why's it not in Perl then,
You could do all that in a simple one-liner...
;o)
I don't know Perl :(
But I could try to write on z/OS HLASM. Or Erlang...
Btw, it could be simple one-liner in Python too.
Like this:
phone_count = 42
_orders = [BOX for _i in xrange(phone_count // 10)] + [SINGLE
for _i in xrange(phone_count % 10)]
print(Please, order %s % , .join(_orders))
Or if you want REALLY python one-liner:
exec(eJwryMjPS41Pzi/NK1GwVTAx4orPL0pJLSoGcqKVnPwjlBTS8osU4jMVMvMUKooS89JTNQqQtOjrKxgaaMYqaANVB3v6ufu4EtCgClbPVVCUmVeioRSQk5pYnKqjALZTQbVYCSivpKOgpJeVn5mnAXWKpiYAGp0z4g==.decode(base64).decode(zip))
Oh My God
It was just the moment, it was because it's passed some time since i stopped
using C at work i think, it could be python, perl, bash, php, c, c++, basic,
javascript, ASM, also java (i don't like it),. :D
It was the moment :D
All the code can be written with standard cut (the Unix command).
But here is the C code:
/* input: the number of Freerunners */
/* returns the total netto Openmoko price for Freerunners */
unsigned long get_price(unsigned short no)
{
unsigned long price=0;
while (no%10)
{
price += 399;
no--;
}
while (no)
{
price += 9*399;
no -= 10;
}
return price;
}
--
Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774
Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone
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Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 16:13 +0200, Jens Fursund wrote: Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
On 4/28/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the code can be written with standard cut (the Unix command). btw., awk is more easy than cut :) -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Jens Fursund wrote: Mikko Rauhala wrote: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. It would be lovely if it did audio too, and you could feed it a scatter-gather list of blocks from the SD to play - but no. So we've got to decode the audio in the CPU, and feed the extracted video stream from the file read by the CPU to the video chip. (neglecting the fact that tehre are no drivers) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
On 4/28/08, Werner Almesberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: steve wrote: Werner doesn't even know he was the inspiration. Oh, *now* I'm curious :-) - Werner Maybe you run free of something? (Did you run away from jail/work/someone???) Or running out _in_ the free? Or you where running without getting paid for it? Does running actually free your mind? ... ... That would qualify as free (as in beer or gratis) running. Anyway, I like the name Freerunner, since it runs (i.e. powered) with free software:) -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Upgrading 1973 to Freerunner
In view of 'many' 1973's becoming obsolete and probably 'ridden' with unfixable problems, would it be 'thinkable' to replace the internals of the device with a FreeRunner Motherboard ? I heard that the most costly part of a device it the screen, and that the screen IFAIK is the same for both systems, an upgrade would be cost-effective. Is this at all thinkable ? Thanx W ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On 4/28/08, Ryan Prior [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community list is for getting phones into peoples' hands? Where has the actual community discussion gone, then? If there is need for a special purpose list to get phones into peoples' hands, it would not be hard to create one. Besides, it's not hard to share mailing list bandwidth between various purposes. I simply can't buy the notion that the community mailing list is not suited to community discussion at this time. There is already too much noise on on the community mailing list. I am sure we will get all the details soon:) I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! So according to you, it should not be possible to talk with people outside the mailing list? -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Upgrading 1973 to Freerunner
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In view of 'many' 1973's becoming obsolete and probably 'ridden' with unfixable problems, would it be 'thinkable' to replace the internals of the device with a FreeRunner Motherboard ? I heard that the most costly part of a device it the screen, and that the screen IFAIK is the same for both systems, an upgrade would be cost-effective. Is this at all thinkable ? As I understand it - no. Basically, the screen is glued down, and will be difficult to remove. All of the internal plastic needs changed - only the outside case is the same. Having said that - I'd like this. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
New List?
Hi, just a question. Do you think that it makes sense to put the distribution questions to a new mailing list? This community list gets flooded with group sales messages. Dirk ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
+1 Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 17:03 +0200 schrieb Dirk Deimeke: Hi, just a question. Do you think that it makes sense to put the distribution questions to a new mailing list? This community list gets flooded with group sales messages. Dirk ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Please do not send me any Microsoft Office documents - I won't accept them! See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more information! Sorry! signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Upgrading 1973 to Freerunner
I think there was a post on the list about a month ago asking this and ultimately, it would cost about as much to upgrade a GTA01 as it would to buy a new GTA02 outright. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In view of 'many' 1973's becoming obsolete and probably 'ridden' with unfixable problems, would it be 'thinkable' to replace the internals of the device with a FreeRunner Motherboard ? I heard that the most costly part of a device it the screen, and that the screen IFAIK is the same for both systems, an upgrade would be cost-effective. Is this at all thinkable ? Thanx W ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. (Also the CPU will have more time to spend for doing the I/O.) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner?
Is it impossible to make the glamo fetch data from the sd directly? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 17:13 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Billaudelle: +1 -1 I think this will return to a normal level when freerunner is shipping. So give it another 2 weeks ;) -- Andre Timmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
So generally, when all the drivers, and software are in place, the freerunner is still going to be limited by how much of anything that needs to be streamed off the SD card at one shot. Maybe this was already posted, but what is the bandwidth limit? How many MB/s, etc. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. (Also the CPU will have more time to spend for doing the I/O.) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
On 4/28/08, Andre Timmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 17:13 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Billaudelle: +1 -1 I think this will return to a normal level when freerunner is shipping. So give it another 2 weeks ;) -1 I agree -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner?
On 4/28/08, Kim Alvefur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it impossible to make the glamo fetch data from the sd directly? Try to ask on the kernel list:) Anyway, I think you will get a good explanation of why we cannot do that. The glamo has proprietary firmware, and very limited space for added functionality. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Am Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:03:38 +0200 schrieb Dirk Deimeke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, just a question. Do you think that it makes sense to put the distribution questions to a new mailing list? What a great idea. Maybe I'm to uncommunicative but I'm tired of marking group order threads and what colour do i like questions as read. At least I found a missing feature in claws: mark folded threats read ;-) I think the wiki would be the best place to arrange group orders and form groups (which might exists after anyone got it's neo-- Steve's intention to spent some goodies?). The real buying process is neither done on the mailing list nor the wiki so there is no disadvantage. Sorry, if anyone feels offended, just my onion pin and 2 cents Christian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 17:31:10 Mikko Rauhala wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. Huh? I think (I hope) I've mis-understood you. Surely it depends what bitrate the mpeg4 video stream was encoded at? Personally I encode 640x480 @ 25 fps at about 800 KBit/s for video. Uncompressed 16bpp would be: 640x480x25x16 = 12 KBit/s Surely 800 KBit/s is not just a _tiny_ bit less than 12 KBit/s? Sending compressed MPEG4 video to the glamo is going to be a _lot_ better than sending uncompressed fames! I'm also wondering just _exactly_ what is meant by MPEG4. I'm guessing it means MPEG4 part 2 - but which profile? Probably simple profile given it's a mobile device - which probably means you'll have to transcode all your videos to MPEG4 part-2 simple profile, as most MPEG4 video I've come across is Advanced Simple plus some codec-specific extenstions (Div.X seems to especially like defining their own extensions). However, I believe this limitation affects IPods PSPs, etc. too, so the neo is not alone. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Andre Timmermann schrieb: Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 17:13 +0200 schrieb Sebastian Billaudelle: +1 -1 I think this will return to a normal level when freerunner is shipping. So give it another 2 weeks ;) me too ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! So according to you, it should not be possible to talk with people outside the mailing list? I did not say anything quite so bold, and you've completely missed my meaning. Please go back and read the thread again - my comment is purely a reaction the circumstances under which the request for secrecy arrived. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. Me too! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Andre Timmermann ha scritto: So give it another 2 weeks ;) Hey hey hey what are you trying to tell us? That the neo will be in the shipping/shopping phase in about 2 week? Think what are you going to say!! :D Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
And to be completely frank about about, I've found the tone of this thread the ugliest thing going on! I'm happy with just getting this phone so I can start developing for it, and I've found most of the push on this thread extremely negative and unproductive. I would guess that's why a private thread was suggested. Then that gets turned into an ugly mess as well. If we have to prioritize to not clog up the list, then right now the focus should be on getting these devices shipped. Discussion about future models is fine, but the whole premise of me and my friends this thing are ugly, is purely unproductive. I hope we can just move on and let this thread die. Heres to the great job everyone has been doing. Can't wait to get a FreeRunner and take part! Sincerely, Geoff On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. Me too! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 19:46 +0200 schrieb Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano: Hey hey hey what are you trying to tell us? That the neo will be in the shipping/shopping phase in about 2 week? Think what are you going to say!! :D Indeed, my intention was increasing the pressure to openmoko inc. ;) Sorry, steve ;) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New List?
Hi, What a great idea. Maybe I'm to uncommunicative but I'm tired of marking group order threads and what colour do i like questions as read. At least I found a missing feature in claws: mark folded threats read ;-) try ignore on threads ;-) I think the wiki would be the best place to arrange group orders and form groups (which might exists after anyone got it's neo-- Steve's intention to spent some goodies?). The real buying process is neither done on the mailing list nor the wiki so there is no disadvantage. Same for me. Everyone knows the wiki to be the place to go to for group orders. Dirk ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
I'm probably over tired, but the concept of going over a particular type of bump in the car that makes your stomach feels like its just dropped, and having the phone play a w sound gives me a bit of a chuckle. That was a great idea:) Please add it to the wiki page. Also, if you fall, the phone should start screaming AUUU!!! IT HURTS! -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
Could you offer shipping by the US Postal Service? Looking at their website, I see that for instance, they have a service called 'Express Mail International' that would cost $28 for a single phone, with a delivery time in 6 days to Sweden, and a service called 'Priority Mail International' which would cost $19 for delivery in 6-10 days. I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. Thank you. -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. Thank you. -- Steven Kurylo Agreed. I once had to pay $100 in brokerage fees for a $90 PocketPC Jacket when it was shipped by UPS. I've found that purolator and fedex don't often charge brokerage fees, UPS charges them quite often, where USPS hasn't yet (for me, at least). Matt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
2008/4/28 Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. If OpenMoko, Inc. won't do it, it sounds like a business opportunity for someone living close to Freemont to buy phones, pick them up or have inexpensive shipping, and then remail them to the rest of the world with USPS, charging a minor fee (around $10 per phone might make it worth while without being too expensive). As I wrote that I realized that there might be existing commerical services in the US that does stuff like that... /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
Ok, everyone, this type of content must stop right away. It will not be tolerated. Michael David Samblas Martinez wrote: We maybe must stop this or freerunner will be the first mobile phone with a PARENTAL ADVISORY tag in its case. :) In oderside it can be a very agresive marketing campaing Open your.phone */Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió: On 4/25/08, steve wrote: Somebody needs to work on the software to make it vibrate better. Maybe I'll have a look at it (need to get the phone first). I got one idea, but I need to test it:) -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=52431/*http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:30 -0700, Steven Kurylo wrote: I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. Thank you. Steven, Where are you in Canada? -Jon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. Thank you. Steven, Where are you in Canada? I am in Victoria. -- Steven Kurylo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
comparisons
Hello, I believe that we are targeting the Freerunner to eventually be an end consumer smart phone. Many end consumers are likely to want to compare the Freerunner to its competitors, e.g., Apple iPhone and HTC Touch. Perhaps it would be good to compare the Freerunner against popular alternatives feature by feature. I can see that openness has already been documented and analyzed [1]. But we could document the other features as well: . Battery life (talk time, standby time) . Frequencies (triband 850/1800/1900, 900/1800/1900, quadband) . Wireless technologies (WiFi, Bluetooth, etc.) . Screen resolution . Max. movie resolution, fps . Accelerometer differences, if any . GPS . Supplied accessories . Radiation . Standard apps . Price . Warranty The list goes on. The Freerunner will shine in some cases; the competition will in others. But this list will present the end consumer with an objective way to compare. If such documentation is already available, please point me to it. Otherwise, it may be good to start a wiki page to document what we know of the Freerunner and its competitors. Thanks! Ajit [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Problems_of_typical_closed_phones ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
Yeah, I fully agree. It's not innuendo unless it's subtle :) Also, are we still are missing the video from Steve's kids about the FreeRunner, or have I just missed it? Cheers, Federico On 4/28/08, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, everyone, this type of content must stop right away. It will not be tolerated. Michael David Samblas Martinez wrote: We maybe must stop this or freerunner will be the first mobile phone with a PARENTAL ADVISORY tag in its case. :) In oderside it can be a very agresive marketing campaing Open your.phone */Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió: On 4/25/08, steve wrote: Somebody needs to work on the software to make it vibrate better. Maybe I'll have a look at it (need to get the phone first). I got one idea, but I need to test it:) -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=52431/*http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Actually, you left out a very important aspect to their success. It starts with an F, and ends in a word normally used to refer to men of a young age. I hear it's a trade secret. * Puts on fire retardent suit * Cheers, Federico On 4/28/08, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt again, unless you have engineered a clever design I don't think you have much credibility on this. Executing appealing products from an engineering perspective is incredibly hard. What experiences do you have on this front which would suggest otherwise. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 or more phones order
Haha, one of the bests laughs I've had on here! Although I'm pretty sure it violates PEP 346356 which clearly states that thou should not use exec and base64 :) Cheers, Federico On 4/28/08, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So why's it not in Perl then, You could do all that in a simple one-liner... ;o) I don't know Perl :( But I could try to write on z/OS HLASM. Or Erlang... Btw, it could be simple one-liner in Python too. Like this: phone_count = 42 _orders = [BOX for _i in xrange(phone_count // 10)] + [SINGLE for _i in xrange(phone_count % 10)] print(Please, order %s % , .join(_orders)) Or if you want REALLY python one-liner: exec(eJwryMjPS41Pzi/NK1GwVTAx4orPL0pJLSoGcqKVnPwjlBTS8osU4jMVMvMUKooS89JTNQqQtOjrKxgaaMYqaANVB3v6ufu4EtCgClbPVVCUmVeioRSQk5pYnKqjALZTQbVYCSivpKOgpJeVn5mnAXWKpiYAGp0z4g==.decode(base64).decode(zip)) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make $yyy profit aren't really any of our business. In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the goal of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly the best possible mobile phone software stack that can be installed over a wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any business) make more profit. For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of units sold, market breakdown c - is a trade secret, and I don't see why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of information may be available to someone with experience in the industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the sort of information that any company will publish casually. Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we consumers want (colours, features c), whilst they may be interested in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build. When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty support in the future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates - than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems to me that that's pretty much what the secrecy whiners on this thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised that), Any company will provide inside information to the trade press - perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as Lowell has then FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first is demonstrate that you're not a whining fanboi, but that your unique insight can add value to the discussion of the product. I found Lowell's remarks interesting because he seems to be looking at Freerunner's place in the market from the old closed-development point of view. It seems likely to
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
On 4/28/08, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/4/28 Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would really like the option to use the USPS instead of UPS. UPS charges much higher brokerage fees to bring a package into Canada compared to the USPS. If OpenMoko, Inc. won't do it, it sounds like a business opportunity for someone living close to Freemont to buy phones, pick them up or have inexpensive shipping, and then remail them to the rest of the world with USPS, charging a minor fee (around $10 per phone might make it worth while without being too expensive). As I wrote that I realized that there might be existing commerical services in the US that does stuff like that... There is. myus.com is one of them. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
I was just hoping that if not a lot of phones get sold (mere thousands or tens of thousands) OpenMoko still makes enough money to keep going, and to design a sexy phone next time around, when there can be an optimized case design rather than a leftover one, and when the software is polished enough that it has a chance of mass-market appeal. (If the software was best-in-class, the case could maybe even be overlooked by a decent fraction of people.) It's good if we have marketing people interested in how to make it sell better, but I agree the GTA02 is probably not the phone that's going to take the world by storm, yet. Maybe there isn't much harm in talking about what to improve next time even though next time isn't really upon us yet. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
It would detract from the argument to not speak to the points, so I will not argue about experience. You look only for a way to minimize my argument. Your argument is similar to suggesting Nike has superior engineering because they have the coolest shoes. No doubt there is some engineering at Nike wrt shoes but it aint that special in the grand scheme of things. It's about selling a minimal product with high margins, like Apple. If we take as a simplistic metric the number of inferences and resulting complexity produced from work at the company required to go from the drawing board to the product release, then the engineering that goes into an iPhone is not really any more then most of the McWindows phones out there. A lot of design and art and marketing considerations mostly, but that is not really engineering, and what's left is for the most part just a cheap computer with off the shelf parts. Parts that minimally met the quality requirments, no doubt. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:47 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt again, unless you have engineered a clever design I don't think you have much credibility on this. Executing appealing products from an engineering perspective is incredibly hard. What experiences do you have on this front which would suggest otherwise. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
software of ne freerunner
Hi, is there a list of applications for the freerunner? I installed the qemu on my ubuntu and there is no email client and no QWERTZ on screen keyboard in the software package that comes with the MokoMakefile :( Best regards, Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Your argument is similar to suggesting Nike has superior engineering because they have the coolest shoes. uhh... yes. The coolest shoes come from doing real *engineering*. Unless by cool you just mean pretty colors. An *incredible* amount of engineering goes into the creation of nike shoes. An **INCREDIBLE** amount. No doubt there is some engineering at Nike wrt shoes but it aint that special in the grand scheme of things. It's about selling a minimal product with high margins, like Apple. Hmm... this is just wrong. Nike (nor apple) wins because they designed the cheapest to manufacture product. In fact most of the time this is not true. If we take as a simplistic metric the number of inferences and resulting complexity produced from work at the company required to go from the drawing board to the product release, then the engineering that goes into an iPhone is not really any more then most of the McWindows phones out there. First of all I said Apple not iPhone. But to focus on the iphone for a sec, because Apple controls the software and the hardware of all of its products, even with the iPhone this statement is demonstrably false since McWindows phone manufacturers OEM their software and so do far less than half the work apple has to do. And certainly, at this point, apple has the most appealing software stack in the phone market. To suggest that there is no difference between the iphone software and the crash prone clunky windows mobile is to not have used either. A lot of design and art and marketing considerations mostly, but that is not really engineering, design *is* engineering, particularly as it relates to software and mechanical engineering. You cannot separate them. And by design I do not mean art work. It means how you make things work. Again your comments reflect not having actually worked on this stuff. Engineering good designs is hard. Its not about art, it is about execution. To suggest otherwise is really to reveal a lack of understanding of the process. -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 17:40:38 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. Euh, I thought that is it because the glamo and the SD are on the same 'bus' or something that there is a bottleneck, not because of the glamo. Or am I missing something ? W On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
All this talking about shipping made a lightbulb go off in my head. I'm not sure if this has already been considered, but would it be possible to distribute through Amazon.com? They seem to be very efficient about distributing things, and shipping costs have always been very reasonable(if not completely free) in my experience. I don't know exactly how it works getting distributed by Amazon, but just curious if this has been looked into. Maybe it would be beneficial to all parties involved? -Hans Loeblich ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:12:32 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Monday 28 April 2008 17:40:38 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. Euh, I thought that is it because the glamo and the SD are on the same 'bus' or something that there is a bottleneck, not because of the glamo. Or am I missing something ? read back. there is a bus between the cpu/system memory and the glamo. this busy is used to: 1. transfer graphics data to and from the video card (glamo) 2. transfer SD IO data to and from the micro-SD card this bus has a limit of about 7.3m/s. to give you an idea of graphics data, 1 RGB565 image @ fullscreen VGA is 600k. you do the math. when you decode a video file it is decoded with the cpu in system ram. the file is read from somewhere (SD card, network, internal flash) which consumes IO bandwidth approximately according to the actual file size (1 minute video, if it is 60mb in size means you consume 1m/s of IO bandwidth, ignoring caching - as cacheing for such large files will be mostly useless). you then need to consume cpu cycles (and memory bandwidth) to decode that video to its native colorspace of YUV (this is not RGB). YUV as used by most video formats uses less space than RGB565 (25% less) so 1 fullscreen VGA frame of video data is 450k. in order for this to be displayed it HAS to be transferred to the video card - across the bus. every amount of time spent copying data to/from the glamo is time that cannot be spent doing something else as the cpu is waiting on the glamo bus. W On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jens Fursund wrote: Mikko Rauhala wrote: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. Why we need to choose smedia's product? I remember ATI(AMD) has same product but with audio capability. The sync of video and audio may be a problem if the HW lacks of audio ability. Bin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Very simply If at this point in the delivery of freerunner I have to answer every posting about the next product, then the current product will not ship and the next will not ship. So I'm trying to structure a public dialog on the future product, in the future. On the other hand, I could of course stop everything I am doing on shipping freerunner and have nice long debates with everybody about what we should ship a year from now. Not going to do it So, I wanted to explain to him, I'm not ignoring his questions and explain a bit of the marketing background, basically personal stuff like what his experiences were and what my history was so we could communicate better. I don't like to thump my chest in public so I thought it better to share with him in private. Sorry that you took it the way you did. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Prior Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:46 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn)
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Thanks for the response and clarification, steve. -Ryan On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:35 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very simply If at this point in the delivery of freerunner I have to answer every posting about the next product, then the current product will not ship and the next will not ship. So I'm trying to structure a public dialog on the future product, in the future. On the other hand, I could of course stop everything I am doing on shipping freerunner and have nice long debates with everybody about what we should ship a year from now. Not going to do it So, I wanted to explain to him, I'm not ignoring his questions and explain a bit of the marketing background, basically personal stuff like what his experiences were and what my history was so we could communicate better. I don't like to thump my chest in public so I thought it better to share with him in private. Sorry that you took it the way you did. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Ryan Prior *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:46 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Lowell Higley *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Ya thanks Ian, Lowell is on travel and hopefully after he gets back we can figure out how to construct a viable dialogue on the issue. I think tapping his experience is very important. One day in a santa clara hotel Sean, will and I are sitting there and Will shows me these great YouTube Openmoko commercials. Made by a community member. And a bomb went off in my head. Open marketing! So, we placed the marketing assets under creative commons. And we will go beyond that to involve everybody as practicable. But when BusinessWeek calls and wants to talk to somebody, I cannot say, wait, let me see what everybody else thinks, and can we arrange a con call with 1M people. It's hard enough getting a press release out with 3 people arguing over words, much less 1M. So, there will be times I speak for the community without their explicit permission. And beg forgiveness when I tread on my own private parts. Roadmap is also difficult and let me explain why. If you ask people what they want, they will ask for the moon and naked dancing girls AND free beer. A noble goal. Now you lay a schedule and cost on that. You can have the moon in two years and it will cost you 699. per moon unit. So, people can share their wish list. It will go into the mix. But the final product is not the union of all wish lists. namely, free beer is out. So, we look at the range of possible configurations. We weigh what it costs, we weigh the schedule, we estimate the ROI based on marketing estimates. Not a lot of this is open, yet. My request to the community. Work with us. Don't ask for free beer, because we will not ship it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
They are fiddling with the screen shots because they are not perfect. We are now having a debate about what to name the file. They think I should change the name of the product. They have no viable suggestions, of course. So, in these matters I step back. They have an opportunity. they have the tools. They can do something unique. So, will they? lots of yelling going on upstairs. good sign. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Federico Lorenzi Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:36 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!! Yeah, I fully agree. It's not innuendo unless it's subtle :) Also, are we still are missing the video from Steve's kids about the FreeRunner, or have I just missed it? Cheers, Federico On 4/28/08, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, everyone, this type of content must stop right away. It will not be tolerated. Michael David Samblas Martinez wrote: We maybe must stop this or freerunner will be the first mobile phone with a PARENTAL ADVISORY tag in its case. :) In oderside it can be a very agresive marketing campaing Open your.phone */Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió: On 4/25/08, steve wrote: Somebody needs to work on the software to make it vibrate better. Maybe I'll have a look at it (need to get the phone first). I got one idea, but I need to test it:) -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ evt=52431/*http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
thanks for explaining that to folks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make $yyy profit aren't really any of our business. In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the goal of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly the best possible mobile phone software stack that can be installed over a wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any business) make more profit. For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of units sold, market breakdown c - is a trade secret, and I don't see why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of information may be available to someone with experience in the industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the sort of information that any company will publish casually. Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we consumers want (colours, features c), whilst they may be interested in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build. When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty support in the future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates - than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems to me that that's pretty much what the secrecy whiners on this thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised that), Any company will provide inside information to the trade press - perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as Lowell has then FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first is
Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future Button and LED software spec)
Is it possible to turn off these LEDs via Software? Sebastian Gerald A wrote: On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So why shipping semi-bugged hardware if there's a fixed version ready? Any software or hardware has annoyances or bugs, or missing features. The question is are they show stoppers, or just mere annoyances? If turning off the blinkenlights can solve this issue, is it worthwhile to hold production another 2 months to get LEDs that consume a bit less power? It's a tough call, and we have to appreciate this process being open -- otherwise we wouldn't even know there is an issue. However, power sipping LEDs aren't a showstopper in most people's books. Personally, I'm much more anxious to play with the WLAN stuff, and would be cool with no LEDs at all. My 2cents. Gerald. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
