Re: RDS/RBDS FM receiver (external) for traffic conditions
Josh, I have the USB FM radio stick. A USB audio device does appear when it's plugged in. However, there is no audio until the FM radio app is run. This does SPI communication with the SI4701 to init and change its settings. They claim it uses standard USBaudio for the sound and that they use the HID spec for control interface (which doesn't make a ton of sense to me, as it seems backwards, but I have not reviewed the spec). Why would this be backwards? HID is human interface, which in this case is buttons on the FM radio GUI application, you have a stereo/mono select, volume slider, mute button, up and down frequency tune and scan buttons, a button for configuring the preset stations, and buttons for preset stations. What is backwards about this? Audio is standard USB audio, controls are custom generic USB HID. This is also the FM chip used in the M$ Zune, but there doesn't appear to have been a lot of progress made on the linux front there. I haven't looked at the code for the FM radio application, and have no idea about making this existing application work with linux. There is other source code also for the evaluation board for the chips. The FM radio stick doesn't appear to demo any RDS/RBDS capability, at least not where I am, no station or artist/song names are appearing. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: RDS/RBDS FM receiver (external) for traffic conditions
A USB audio device does appear when it's plugged in. However, there is no audio until the FM radio app is run. This does SPI communication with the SI4701 to init and change its settings. Yikes that was a poor description. Let me try that again. There is a micrcontroller onboard the USB FM radio stick along with the SI4701 receiver. The microcontroller provides the USB interface and does SPI communication with the SI4701. Plugging in the USB stick creates a composite USB device, both audio and generic HID. Nothing happens until the FM radio application is run on the PC. This sends some init commands to the microcontroller which in turn sends init commands to the SI4701 over SPI. Then the radio starts working. I have not seen any RDS/RBDS capability with this FM radio stick. It is likely capable, assuming it has SI4701 (not SI4700) onboard, but you would need to be able to flash the microcontroller code with new code for that capability (I think ...) -- Doug They claim it uses standard USBaudio for the sound and that they use the HID spec for control interface (which doesn't make a ton of sense to me, as it seems backwards, but I have not reviewed the spec). Why would this be backwards? HID is human interface, which in this case is buttons on the FM radio GUI application, you have a stereo/mono select, volume slider, mute button, up and down frequency tune and scan buttons, a button for configuring the preset stations, and buttons for preset stations. What is backwards about this? Audio is standard USB audio, controls are custom generic USB HID. This is also the FM chip used in the M$ Zune, but there doesn't appear to have been a lot of progress made on the linux front there. I haven't looked at the code for the FM radio application, and have no idea about making this existing application work with linux. There is other source code also for the evaluation board for the chips. The FM radio stick doesn't appear to demo any RDS/RBDS capability, at least not where I am, no station or artist/song names are appearing. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: RDS/RBDS FM receiver (external) for traffic conditions
Josh wrote: I have always thought of HID as using an external device that then communicates to the computer, this is using a virtual app on the computer to control an external device - I don't disagree that it is Human Interface. Aside from keyboards and mice, this idea is exactly what generic HID is for. I have seen others that do the same. For example audio codec evaluation boards use generic HID communication and have volume, balance, fader etc controls in a similar PC app. Interestingly though, generic USB HID can also be used as just a simple comminication protocol between host and slave, and can do pretty decent throughput. I will look further into this, because I have some of the SI4701 chips here too, my intention was to write my own SPI code on a different micro, so I haven't looked too closely at their source. I was thinking about doing something better: using a micro to create a virtual com port, using the driverless USB ACM CDC (communication device class), which would be translated to the necessary SPI commands on the micro firmware, to control the FM tuner and to read and send the RDS/RBDS data. This way you would have generic USB audio and generic USB CDC serial, and you could just open a serial port and send commands to change stations and such, and the RDS data would just arrive at the serial port. This assume a different custom small board with SI4701 and microcontroller, most likely an ARM7. -- Doug -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: RDS/RBDS FM receiver (external) for traffic conditions
Josh wrote: One of the apparent weaknesses of the Si USB dongles (from my armchair research) is the antenna connection - it might be nice to have a mini SMA or something (with the standard FM resistance -- 75 Ohms?) Yeah the USB FM Radio stick has a wire sticking out, that is the antenna. For most real applications of this chip, the earphone wire acts as the antenna, like in my sony ericsson phone. The evaluation board for the chipset has SMA connector so you can try different antennae. Looky http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/si4700-B15rev1_0.pdf http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/AN230Rev0_3.pdf http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/AN232Rev0_2.pdf http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/AN234Rev0_2.pdf http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/AN235Rev0_5.pdf http://www.electrosnab.ru/silabs/pdf/Si/AN284Rev0_1.pdf -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible
The idea is that cellphone manufacturers will be able to use the standard, open (and Linux-based) Android platform for free, to power their future cellphones (the first ones will be out in the second half of next year). And, as you might imagine, the new Google-provided mobile OS will have deep hooks into Google applications like search, maps, documents, RSS readers and, yes, ads. Ads that will know where you are and can serve geo- specific messages thanks to the GPS chips coming to almost all smartphones in the near future. So, let's pull this altogether. OpenSocial was about Google maintaining ad dominance in the face of a threat by Facebook/ Microsoft. Android and the Open Handset Alliance is about Google not only owning the mobile ad space, but becoming the Microsoft of the next two decades. It wants to own the mobile operating system space the way Microsoft owns the desktop now. http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=64351 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: GSM firmware and GPS driver
Shachar Shemesh The way I figured it out, the GSM module will always be closed. This is not due to the hardware specs being unknown, but due to the fact that the law requires a transmitter to be approved by the FCC, and it is impossible to get an approval for a transmitter that allows anyone to change the frequencies it transmits in. Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking, the actual firmware cannot and will not be open sourced, however, other companies allow firmware updates to load firmware created by the manufacturer, just as they do for GPS receiver modules and many other devices. You can update firmware, even as an end user, much in the same fashion as flashing a bios on pc, for most products like this. So although we know the firmware for things like gsm, gps, bluetooth, wifi will not be open source, long term it would be best if FIC worked towards using modules that can be field updated by users. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible
Cameron wrote Personally.. I think people should stop commenting snip If you don't like a comment, there is a delete key. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Raphaël Jacquot wrote: it's *very* understandable. it's called the NIH syndrome... We are talking about spectrum allocation here. The 900Mhz band was already allocated in North America. You can buy 900Mhz cordless phones and wireless speakers. 915Mhz is in the ISM band (industrial, scientific, medical). There is no invention involved in spectrum allocation. GSM was already specified. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I'm talking about the previous tech, such as iden (nextel if I'm not mistaken) whatever qualcomm's proprietary tech was called. Motorola invented IDEN. They have been doing telecom since 1928, so you can't really blame them for inventing stuff hehe. In Canada, Telus Mobility also uses IDEN. The PTT feature is actually quite popular. In fact, it could be said that others are conceptual copies of what motorola designed. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible
Yeah it seems like this Android is for phone companies, or that's google's current spaghetti on the wall idea. Even if it sticks, if they're just trying to make it some standard for companies, what will that buy the techie user? Nada. I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to even look at the SDK. Still skeptical, I have seen so many toolkits. Just what I need another SDK hehe. Reminds me of IBM alpha works. Don't get too excited until it actually becomes a product and you understand what any licensing and distribution restrictions there are. -- Doug Bill Cox wrote: unless you're a alliance member ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
Georg wrote: no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a very useful additional feature . Speaking of navigation, this is interesting, Locosys makes something called Traffic Message Channel (TMC) using the Silicon Labs SI4701 FM tuner RDS feature to gather real-time traffic and weather information. They use an 8051 microcontroller to read the RDS data from SI4701 and convert it into NMEA sentence format, which is of course, also a format used by GPS receivers. So, if you have onboard GPS, and bolt-on FM tuner with RDS, and some processing, you could do something similar. The NMEA part presumably is just to make it somewhat standard, is useful data on its own, but this is quite interesting. http://www.locosystech.com/download/module/TMC-1513_datasheet_v1.1.pdf I'm going to design just a very simple breakout board for the SI4701 to start playing around with it, this RDS stuff is very interesting. Later will make another board with SI4701 and small microcontroller plus audio codec. Microcontroller will read the RDS and also control/configure the FM tuner. Analog audio output would work alone but could also input into Neo or other application. Currently in the middle of switching jobs and residence though, so it may be a short while before I get any boards made. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
Georg wrote: no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a very useful additional feature . The supplier where I usually buy parts has only the FM receivers in stock, but the interesting thing is that these went way down in price just in the past couple of months. The SI4701 with RDS/RDBS is $5.22 single qty, I paid over $18 for this same part from the same supplier in September! Back then the SI4700 (without RDS/RDBS) was roughly half the price, now it is $4.55. At quantuty 100 this part goes down to $3.03, not bad for a complete FM receiver. The price of the development board also dropped down to $125 and the USB FM radio stick demo is $35. But this distributor (Digiykey) only has the FM receivers, not the AM/FM receivers, FM transmitters, or FM transceivers. Another distributor Mouser also only has the receivers. They have an evaluation board for SI4713 transmittable orderable but not in stock and yet they don't list the chip itself. NuHorizons has these in stock: SI4710 FM Transmitter $10.35 SI4711 FM Transmitter with RDS/RBDS $12.43 SI4712 FM Transceiver $11.96 SI4713 FM Transceiver with RDS/RBDS $14.35 SI4730 AM/FM Receiver $14.87 SI4731 AM/FM Receiver with RDS/RBDS $16.89 http://www.nuhorizons.com/ So assuming RDS/RDBS capable versions ... FM receiver $5.22 from Digikey (SI4701) FM transceiver $14.35 from NuHorizons (SI4713) AM/FM receiver $16.89 from NuHorizons (SI4731) The SI4701 FM receiver has analog audio output so it could connect direct to audio input, or could also be converted to USB audio using PCM2900 or similar. The SPI port is for control (scan frequencies) and receiving RDS/RBDS. If it was done as USB, with a 2-port USB hub chip, PCM29xx USB audio, and small USB microcontroller with SPI (and driver for virtual USB UART), this could plug into the USB host port. The audio interfaces are simple but the control interfaces may be a bit of a challenge for integration with Neo, if you want control from the phone itself. Alternatively, a simple FM receiver could just have a scan button on the receiver board and only an analog interface to Neo. Regarding transmitters and transceivers, I need to look closer at those. One of the other things about these is you basically need to buy a development board to even get full datasheet. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Moved page for those interested in second hand Neos
For some idea on where 850 might be used, this Fido (Canada) USA roaming map shows 850 in a lighter color http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/packages/unitedstates.shtml And Fido (Canada) states this about 850 http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/support/coverage.shtml#rogers_network4 This map shows ATT 1900, 850 and 3G on separate maps http://www.mountainwireless.com/att_850_1900.shtml In some areas it probably won't make a difference, in other areas it will. For example looking at Texas there is much more coverage including 850 on ATT. This T-Mobile map shows 850 in light green http://coverage.t-mobile.com/Default.aspx Back to Canada, this guy states I was advised by a Rogers network engineer that all new towers installed in Canada in the previous two years were 850 MHz for both capacity and coverage range reasons http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/support/coverage.shtml#rogers_network4 And this other guy states 850 is the largest spectrum Rogers owns (currently) and has been setup on their network since day one to best cover all areas (since the analog and TDMA days)... http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=464527 Anecdotal travel report doesn't really mean anything unless we follow your same path. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Moved page for those interested in second hand Neos
Sorry one of those links was wrong, should have been http://skypejournal.com/blog/archives/2006/11/gsm_850_mhz_band_not_to_be_overlooked.php ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
Silicon Labs SI4700 and SI4701 are entire FM tuners on a single chip, and they are tiny. I have their USB FM Radio and I use it every day on my PC, and I believe the same chip is in my Sony Ericsson phone. This is the one that uses the earphone wire as antenna, although it can be separate, as is demonstrated in the USB FM radio implementation and also their devkit. The 4701 adds European Radio Data System (RDS) and US Radio Broadcast Data System (RBDS) which can capture the station identification and song name. This FM tuner would be a good choice for Neo. Silicon Labs also has an even smaller version, AM/FM version, and also FM transmitter chips that would allow playback on car stereo for example. I am planning to make some PCB boards with the SI4701 and minimal parts on them in the future, will be sold on ebay (I have surface mount reflow oven). See the Silicon Labs parts here: http://www.silabs.com/tgwWebApp/public/web_content/products/Broadcast/Radio_Tuners/en/Si4730-31_matrix.htm -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
He is talking about receiver chips, like those used in SonyEricsson/Nokia cellphones, to provide the phone owner with FM radio reception. Not to transmit say, music, to a radio. Well I mentioned both, and they are separate chips. There is plain FM, FM with RDS/RBDS, AM/FM and also FM transmitters and receivers available from Silicon Labs. I have FM radio on my phone now and don't use it very much, it's definitely not a show stopper, in fact for Neo even GPS is not a requirement for me, main concern is the quad band (future, sorry for all my whining), good quality audio (wolfson is very good choice), and the WIFI sounds great. Bluetooth makes sense. Camera, GPS, and other add-ons not needed, for me anyways, I don't expect this device to be the only one. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
Georg, The amazing thing about these Silicon Labs parts is that they require almost no external components. For example the SI470x FM tuners require a crystal and regulator, that is all, they can use headphone cable as antenna (as is done in most phones now), and they have stereo analog output and SPI interface for control and for getting the RDS/RDBS station identification and song info as text. Those analog outputs could feed right into a TI PCM2900 and then you have a driverless USB audio FM tuner. Without access to SPI though a small microcontroller would be required. Could be done with a $2 ARM7 or Cortex-M3. I haven't looked too closely at the FM transmitters or receivers yet, but I'll take a look and see what kind of external components are required. So you're not even interested in FM tuner, just FM transmitters and receivers? BTW I also have hardware based text-to-speech chips here that work really well and also require few components, they are UART input and analog and/or digital audio output, I have already made one full speech synth for someone using them and have several more chipsets here. I am actually more interested in speech based interfaces to phones and PDAs than the fancy GUIs, might be interesting to bolt one onto a Neo at some point. My phone should READ web pages and email to me and whisper in my ear. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions
There is an interesting speaker phone codec made by cirrus logic http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1006.html They are in stock at digikey -- Doug___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Alan wrote: Adding gps to the iPhone is likely to be a minor Bluetooth driver project. But you don't have source, so this minor project becomes impossible. The only way that is going to happen is if/when Apple integrates such driver support into the device. -- Doug___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: highly offtopic but oh so fun :D
More phunnies http://www.clipstr.com/videos/ConanIPhoneCommercialItDoesEverything/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I forgot to mention, with the modules I have looked at and also worked with, you send a command over the serial port to switch bands. That is all. Regarding the board design dilemma, I suppose that means the antenna as is probably part of the pcb board is not tuned to be quad band. It must be possible because thousands of other phones work that way. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
You should not have to switch firmware for the different bands. That would be insanity. A quad band module should be able to use one image for everything. That apparently isn't the case at the moment, but it should be, and hopefully they are working towards that end. Not sure what the deal is with calypso but I have looked very closely at several other quad band modules and there is none of this problem. Check out for example the telit modules and the mult-tech modules. They are likely more expensive but they definitely do quad band and they don't need different firmware for different bands. http://www.multitech.com/PRODUCTS/Families/SocketModemEDGE/ http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68 Load different firmware to travel? WTF? Dear FIC please work on quad band with single firmware. If calypso is problematic for this then please ditch it and get another module, there are many many to choose from and gsm serial code is standard so there should not be a huge number of changes required. I noticed that TI is very secretive and protective of their cell technology. I am starting to think that it's a bad choice. I have all the docs for the above two modules and everything is well documented and ready to go. They both have direct antenna connector, although the telit surface mount modules allow you to make part of the pcb board the antenna. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
http://www.proficio.ca/ Not really true... Europe have GSM 900/1800... They have two frequencies for different reasons. 1800 was added due to congestion on 900. In North America 850Mhz is longer distance due to higher output power. Read specs on cellular modules (hardware) and you will see 850Mhz is higher output power. That is why it is used more often in rural areas. It can be hundreds of miles between cities over here. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
The 850 Mhz capability of the radio is disabled. Article quote: If you're in a major metropolitan area, you probably won't need the 850 MHz band, but if you travel to secondary areas regularly, you will find the extra coverage of the 850 MHz band to be valuable. Looking into the future, it is probable we'll see increased use of 850 MHz to expand GSM's overall coverage into more of the country. And then, looking further into the future, it is possible we'll see 1900 MHz coverage duplicating the 850 MHz coverage. Bottom line : If you travel out of the main cities, you'll definitely benefit from a phone that supports both 850 MHz and 1900 MHz. http://www.thetravelinsider.info/roadwarriorcontent/quadbandphones.htm I don't know many North Americans who do not travel outside of main cities. 850Mhz What this means for future versions depends on if they make the changes to support 850Mhz. The lack of 850Mhz support Antigua, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Colombia, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvadore, Grenada, Guam, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Montserrat, Nicaragua, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States, Venzuela. Also, regarding the comment that some carriers only operate 1900, keep in mind that you ROAM onto partner networks. Even if your provider only uses 1900, there are good odds that you actually can and possibly do use 850 outside of major cities. If you have T-Mobile that doesn't mean you don't use other networks. You probably don't even know you are using them ... Mikko wrote: Does anyone know if the Siemens M56 was a dual or single band phone? If the band-spec is contained in the Neo, I would not be worried about it. M56 is 850/1900. Worry about lack of 850. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Edwin Lock wrote: North America(and Canada) apparently uses 850/1800 and the rest of the world uses 900/1900. No, North America uses 850/1900 and most of the rest of the world uses 900/1800, but there are MANY MANY countries that use 1900 and more than just North America uses 850. And Canada is in North America eh LOL -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
850Mhz is odd because north america is big. Output power 2 watt versus 1 watt for 1900 Mhz. To cover rural areas, less towers required for 850Mhz. There will be more not less 850 support in the future. Europe is much more congested so can justify more towers with less output power on phones. I hope Neo gets this support for 850Mhz in the next version. I love the idea but it doesn't make sense for most folks on this side of the pond to buy what would effectively be a single band phone. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Alright I stand corrected on one aspect of this, but 850Mhz (specficied power) is double the output power of 1900Mhz and is used extensively in rural areas. Any future version of Neo will need 850/1900 for North America. And as stated earlier, these countries also use 850Mhz: Antigua, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Colombia, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvadore, Grenada, Guam, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Montserrat, Nicaragua, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States, Venzuela. It's crazy that 850 is disabled, crazier that it's called quad band. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
Well so far it's a bunch of hot air. Let's see what this SDK looks like. Supposedly an early look within one week. I'm a bit skeptical on the whole thing for now. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
The big deal about 850Mhz vs 1900Mhz is that 850Mhz specification is higher power. Higher power means different, and probably more stringent, testing and certification requirements. Presumably that is why it's more than just a software/firmware issue requiring board design and component changes. Sigh. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
Google the search engine company announces vapourware and that means FIC's time is come and gone? That doesn't make much sense. Did you see what the partners are saying? They say we are happy to be a part of this. This is the equivant of for example HP saying we are announcing that we will be working closely with XYZ. Nothing has been agreed on, except we will be working on it. Ever seen how consortiums operate and how long it takes companies to agree on things. There is also two levels of agreement here. First the participants is this open platform (btw let's see what that really means) need to agree. Then they need agreement of the wireless providers, who most likely will not be as peppy on saying we're happy to be part of this. Such knee jerk reaction from one announcement, makes no sense in technology announcements. Tech companies often announce things before they even have a conceptual idea of what it will be. It's the spaghetti on the wall methodology. Throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. And google, per said company's roots, will surely have an agenda beyond an open platform. Adware based on voice recognition? I will never buy a google anything, thanks. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Mathew Davis: Who uses the 900 band does anyone know? Nobody in North America uses 900 or 1800. Originally all GSM phones were 900Mhz. The GSM specs were created in Europe. Due to congestion on the 900Mhz band most providers added support for 1800Mhz. North America was late in the GSM game due to old networks and therefore much prior investment. However, it is basically unheard of now to buy a GSM phone in North America that does not support 850/1900, the two North American bands. These two are must have for North American customers in general. Quad band should be the goal. Good GSM coverage info here http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Update
Okay this is what confuses me regarding this GPS source code. I have worked with several GPS modules. I have written code to configure them and read and parse their output. Why you would need the vendor's code is beyond me. They provide the specs. The specs are all you need to write your own drivers. Writing drivers for GPS is trivial. You should not have to update firmware on GPS modules. Whatever for? They should basically be black boxes that follow their specs. If you need to update firmware then you've picked the GPS module. Every module I have looked at supports NMEA by default. That is plain text output! Most also have binary data mode which offers much more capability. One simple command sets to receiver into binary mode. Writing drivers for the output is still trivial but a bit more involved. Writing drives that can do absolutely all functions like saving almanacs and such is more work, but most people probably don't even need that. I am baffled why there should EVER be a need for any kind of binary file for a GPS. What does it do exactly? Is the device not a serial device? Can't you just write your own serial code? -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Update
Karsten wrote: Some time ago, someone (I can not remember who it was) mentioned that the current GPS chip of the GTA01 does some calculations in software (means within the driver code), which is done by firmware in other GPS chips. Okay that makes some sense then what is being discussed, but still does not explain why you NEED such binary. If all you want is the coordinates you should be able to send a simple command to the receiver and tell it ... go :) Also, whatever calculation that is, surely it can be done in software outside the receiver, or if not then this was a very poor choice of receivers. I started working with them about 12 years ago. They have advanced tremendously since then. They are tiny, cheap, and easy to write code for. The NMEA mode is good to have for applications that expect that kind of output, but it's a nasty spec actually format wise, and binary modes unleash much more data. My recommendation would be to ditch any vendor provided code and focus on two drivers, one for NMEA and one for binary mode. The binary mode is usually proprietary ie motorola has their own spec and lasson has another etc, but it's just a matter of reading binary and following the specs. 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't :) I am willing to write code for this, and other areas too, but do not have a Neo yet, and sadly it does not make sense to order one at the moment. Count me in for the next rev but please do lots of QA. The reports of white screen and no boot and othe nasties are ... a concern. Only alpha hardware should behave that way. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Update
By the way I should mention that not only Neo is experiencing the white screen phenomenon. I am doing tech support for phones and many off the shelf motorola and other standard brands are doing this. It's not a huge phenomenon but it has become regular in the past six months or so. Based on what has been said here it seems to be power management related. That is interesting because all I know of the others is that they go back to their creator to be reborn, it is never said what exactly happens in their reincarnation. I had assumed in the other cases it was either a problem with the screen itself or the connection. But having written bad code oin embedded boards myself I know that just a software glitch can crreate the WSOD hehe. Just the other day I was helping someone figure out why they couldn't send mms on some brand name phone (forget which already) and as soon as she selected insert to attach the image to the mms message the screen went white. That is bad firmware of some sort. Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Update
Gabriel wrote: The Global Locate device does a lot of GPS processing on the HOST CPU which is why it REALLY needs that driver to work. I am guessing, possibly wrongly, that this would be stuff like altitude and velocity calculations. When you look at every bit of a GPS spec there isn't a lot to calculate, or if there is then get a better module. I still think that it should be easy to at least get coordinates. There should not be any required calculation for this. If there is then that is not even a complete GPS receiver. Every other I have looked at has ONBOARD HOST. They have a ARM7 or similar that does all the magic you should not have to worry about. If this one is only sending raw data ie no actual coordinates then it makes no sense to use that part. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community Update
Mikko wrote: 2) Yes, it can make sense not to have a bazillion CPUs on board from various perspectives. I evaluated no less than 25 different GPS modules some years ago and compared them in all important aspects. Every single one had a microcontroller onboard. I do not agree that it makes any sense at all not to choose one of these types. They are down to the size of a thumbnail almost. Is the microcontroller a CPU, technically yes, but it's part of the receiver, and you want to do all this fancy GUI and not suck the life of the battery from ARM9 usage. It is a good thing they ditched that GPS. It is now standard that any GPS module does have a microcontroller inside, most commonly some variant of ARM7, super low power, you never deal with any firmware. More importantly, choosing any part that requires a binary on an open source based board is asking for trouble. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Homebrew Open Phone
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Open hardware means availability of schematics and gerbers, Are they available for the Neo? No, Neo is not open hardware either. Even if it was it would not be easy to produce. I have a reflow oven and could do it, but I think it would end up costing just as much as buying one. Really open hardware would be if you get all the files to produce your own silicon :-) Yeah, and the interesting thing about ARM is that is does start that way. ARM is a fabless company, they only sell intellectual property. Licensees actually buy the source code to the hardware. http://www.arm.com/products/physicalip/product_overview.html If you want to make your own silicon ...grab this source hehe http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/core_arm/overview Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Homebrew Open Phone
Open hardware means availability of schematics and gerbers, not source code, and this is not open hardware. Driver code is still in the software realm. For compulab's PXA270 boards, this is their listed OS support: http://www.compulab.co.il/x270em/html/x270-em-os-support.htm Since they list linux support presumably there is source but I would check to make sure before buying. For harware details, products like this will usually include enough documentation of the hardware to do any kind of interfacing you need, but it's not open hardware unless they provide the full schematics and gerber files to produce pcb boards. Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ Regarding CompuLab hardware does anyone know the word on openness of their hardware? i.e. are the modules they supply in binary form, or as code? the hardware looks fantastic and i've spent a while studying the specs, but if there's no open code, i'll stick with openmoko/neo1973 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Using Openmoko in Japan
Well WCDMA aka UMTS was made in Japan as NTT DoCoMo launched the first commerical WCDMA 3G mobile network in 1991. I dunno about protectionism, and there are many sides to this. The North American wireless infrastructure is advancing slowly due to its roots in old tech, and will probably be the slowest to advance to widespread 3G adoption. -- Doug Jon wrote: supports the standard GSM bands (850/1900, 900/1800) and Japan's UMTS uses 1700 2100. note: this is indeed some form of protectionnism :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Feature request -- SMS spam blocking?
Regarding SMS, a few basic comments on how it works ... First, there is a message service center address, that is the link to the provider and is set with the +CSCA command. The device (phone) can be set to allow originations (send), terminations (receive) and broadcast type messages, set with the +CMCS (select message service). There is an alert called new message indicator, the behavior of which is set with +CNMI (New Message Indications). There is command to list messages +CMGL. And yes there is command to receive message +CMGR. The billing of messaging is entirely carrier dependent. There is no generic rule that can apply to everyone. Some carriers for example may not charge for incoming messages while others will. As far as I know there is no way to block specific origins in a way that would stop billing of messages. So the answer is it is technically possibly to only receive (+CMGR) messages in your address book, that could be effective in blocking spam messages, but afaik that has no impact on billing. How it is billed depends on your carrier, and which plan or messaging feature you have. Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Homebrew Open Phone
Compulab does have, and has always had, very interesting embedded boards. But before you get excited about this one that the article states starting at $122 ... Unless they have changed their way of doing sales, you don't just buy one module, you buy an evaluation kit, which runs up close to $2000. Only after buying said kit can you buy just modules. Also, what is the starting at module? Probably not the one you would end up wanting. It's a very nice product but it will not be something you can put together for hundreds of dollars, read their web site for the details on how sales work, before getting too excited. Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Using Openmoko in Japan
No you do not have GSM there. The 3G in Japan is UMTS. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: I'm new in this list
I have not purchased a Neo yet but I bid on one and ebay and lost. Just wanted to say, I hope that the focus on making calls is top on the priority list. It seems a bit bizarre that there is another version in the works when you can't make calls on the first. It would make more sense to get the basics of calling working on version one before even talking about WIFI and accelerometers. A phone that cannot make calls: not a phone! -- Doug___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 3G status within the US?
With ATT, formerly Cingular when 3D SIMS were introduced, initially there was different SIMS for 3G (UTMS) and non-3G (GSM) devices, but my understanding is that all new SIMS are labeled as 3G, and they work on both types of devices, at least with ATT they do. I would suggest try a new SIM. Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: No Camera???
I do tech support for phones and I assure that there are many people who don't care about cameras. I knpw because they say exactly that I don't need a camera. However, based on the number of mms messaging, and problems with this I see, they certainly are popular with a lot of people. Lack of a camera will not doom a phone. Although it is now becoming hard to find one without camera, most have very pitiful camera that take lousy pictures. I have one that takes great pictures, but it's made to specially be a phone blended with camera (sony cybershot) and it works very as a camera and less well as a phone hehe. I can't say that Neo is for non techies. An open source linux based phone where you can compile your own kernel and can get a JTAG adapter for flashing ... for non techies? This is not for non techies. It could have been but then it would not even be released until the software was fully cooked and idiot proofed, and they probably wouldn't be talking about tons of new features. Also, knowing what I do about how phone providers work and how they deal with phone firmware, branding, security, authentication, etc ... You will not see a phone like this sold by a major provider. Not in a fully open source form. They will not allow that. There are many reasons for this which I will not mention, if you don't know them then you don't understand the phone industry. There are sales oriented reasons, security oriented reasons, and branding reasons. A fully open source phone is a provider's nightmare. That does not mean they won't sell to users, but it does mean that providers won't buy them to sell to you, not unless they can erase the flash image, provide their own, prevent the JTAG access, and many other things ... -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New TOP SECRET OM device??
Okay so I confer that GTA03 will use vi for user interface =8^) Then we can have vi versus emacs wars too hehe Doug Sutherland Proficio Research http://www.proficio.ca/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: emergency alarm for openmoko
Better check the legalities of auto sending anything to emergency services. Due to instances of false alarms, this is not legal in many places, and/or can involve large fines. This is true even of home fire and security alarm systems. If you have false alarms and a system that reports to emergency services, you can be fined heavily. The idea of alarm function is not bad. The idea of any messaging to emergency services is very bad. configured to send a message to the emergency services ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Screen shots of Qtopia on Neo and some thoughts
My hope is that this marks the end of closed phones. Not a chance. The providers want custom firmware that leads you to their pay per use service, pay per item content, the recurring charge subscriptions, and the associated data charges. The relationship between providers and phone manufacturers is much like between PC hardware manufacturers and the software and integrators. They together force consumers to need more RAM, more this, new mobo, etc. Installing linux on motherboards tends to void warranties, which makes no sense, but is the way of the world. Nokia et al have no business without providers and will never stray too far from a very controlled software build. They dabble in linux with the 770 but do you really think service providers will sign onto full open source? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
