subject:"\[Cellhunter\]"

Hi,

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects

We have imported the opencellid data once, to bring right now better 
coverage to the users. But this is supposed to be temporary. The target 
being to have only openBmap data or data from projects which share the 
level of quality we aim at.

 AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important
 data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels.
 

Yes, we want the data to be of the best possible quality. This implies 
logging more details. And we try to make the clients sticking to this.

 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj
 cellhunter cells?

There are not 7 M cells. 140K or so I think. And at the time of the last 
import, no cellhunter data had made their way to opencellid database 
yet. But it was planned by cellhunter, thus we did not want to have to 
import them, and have to solve the conflicts when importing opencellid 
(embedding cellhunter data).

 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet

I am working on a D-Bus service giving your location on your phone, 
note/net-book using an embedded database. Help is welcome :-)

 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner
 

Opencellid said there is... I think he referred to cellhunter, because 
cellhunter said he would upload the data from his project to opencellid 
on a regular basis.

 I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just
 easiest to use. 

Partly thanks to your feedback that I have tried to take into account. 
Thanks for this!

Onen


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Landspurg wrote:
   Hello Risto,
 
   Here is a few facts from such FAQ:
 

Not all accurate, though.

  Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the
 'untrusted ones')
 

Absolutely correct. Number is on your side.

  One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID
 provides a complete access to the data and the measures.
 

Does cellhunter not provide access to all the collected data?

OpenBmap has on his main page the link to download all the data files, 
exactly as sent by the users. This is a fact you may have checked 
easily, or asked.

For me the main difference between the projects, is that openBmap is 
focusing on the quality of the data.

  OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files
 mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have
 any OpenMoko phone to test it.
 

Do you mean cellhunter?

   I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not
 involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and
 others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration
 effort. 

Yes, glad you came back after I contacted you about three weeks ago, in 
order to reopen the dialog.

Onen


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

Leonti Bielski wrote:
 So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project?

Please see the nice work from Christian Gagneraud in the archive about 
comparison of what's get logged/stored by CH, OBM and OCI
logger/database:

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049238.html

Onen


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

Thomas Landspurg wrote:
   Again , and clarifiacation:
 
  ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells),
 the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;)
 
 
  OpenCellID: 433 574 cells
  CellHunter:  148 943 cells
  OpenBMap:  82 963 cells
 
  (sorry for talking the risk of being the 'bad' guy agin, but at the
 end that's a little bit annoying)
 

No problem. This is absolutely correct. Stating facts never hurts :-)

Onen


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

  Great, good to know that you are back. So I would like to be sure
that you received my latest emails / linked in invitation/facebook
inviation in order to make sure that we still can continue to discuss!
:-)

2009/9/3 Onen onen...@free.fr:
 Hi,

 I was away from my computer, I try to go now through my emails...

 Thomas Landspurg wrote:

   Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions

   I have some point of disagreement,

 Please tell.

  but I would like first to stay

 polite

 You imply you think you have good reasons not to. I think you should simply
 tell what you think.

  and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he

 disappear?

 !!!

 I am trying to contact him since more than a week without

 success


 I find very ironic that you find more than a week thaat long.

 Onen





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8Motions
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http://www.opencellid.org

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

  Hello Risto,

 That's exactly the objective.There is a clear difference and
complementarity between a general purpose database and the
CellsHunter game for instance. The good news is that we are
progressing well with CellsHunter to integrate their database.
Currently the integration has been done once but I hope to integrate
this much easily soon...
  I still hope to convince OpenBMap to don't recreate another database
focused on OpenMoko but use and improve a general purpose project. I
am sure that that's the spirit of Onen, but it seems that we had some
communication issue that I should be solved soon.
  The final benefit, at the end, is to provide the best not in only in
term of coverage but also in terms of accuracy database.

  As a reminder, we are open to any suggestion on how to imprement the
API, features, missing fields, etc.

2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 I have no idea what's going on between you people but:

 Now that I had a little thought, I really don't care how many copies
 of the database we have. All I care about is that

 a) there's a way to use the data (=a client capable to locate me based
 on the GSM cells around me)
 b) the client uses the database with most cells.

 - as long as all three projects have proper API's to import/export
 data and they do it from the other 2 projects things work.

 It kind of makes sense if the projects use different ways to collect
 the data. One has it as a competition, one uses some clients to
 collect the data, another uses other clients and projects. And in the
 end they all benefit from the work of others.

 Just some points for you to discuss:
 a) common api or data format to import/export
 b) common api to submit cells


 r - goes out to find some cells

 (no, not really, I'll watch an episode of CSI :)



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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Thomas
Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
  That's exactly the objective.There is a clear difference and
 complementarity between a general purpose database and the
 CellsHunter game for instance. The good news is that we are
 progressing well with CellsHunter to integrate their database.

I think this should be something done ~weekly; syncing the databases.

  I still hope to convince OpenBMap to don't recreate another database
 focused on OpenMoko but use and improve a general purpose project.

I can't see why openbmap would focus on OpenMoko more than any other
projects. They talk about Windows Mobile and Freerunner on the front
page

 I
 am sure that that's the spirit of Onen, but it seems that we had some
 communication issue that I should be solved soon.

I don't know about your issues, just don't let it effect your
co-operation. If you think it's good to work together, do it.

  The final benefit, at the end, is to provide the best not in only in
 term of coverage but also in terms of accuracy database.

OpenBmap stores this data:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/myposition/wiki/log_format

* mcc
* mnc
* lon
* lat
* alt
* heading
* speed
* hdop
* vdop
* pdop
* swid: software id of the logger
* swver: software version of the logger
* lac: decimal value
* id: decimal value of the cell id
* ss: signal strength in dBm
* rxlev: optional
* ta: timing advance, optional
* speed: in km/h

OpenCellID stores these (source: http://opencellid.org/api)

mcc: mobile country code(decimal)
mnc: mobile network code(decimal)
lac: locale area code (in decimal)
cellid: value of the cell id (in decimal)
measured_at (optionnal) the time of the measure...
lat:latitude when the measure has been taken
lon:longitude when the measure has been taken

CellHunter seems to be the app-specific you were talking about. Didn't
find specs to tell what data it sends (didn't check the source).

I think alt, speed and GPS precision etc information can be useful in
calculating the position of the cells.

  As a reminder, we are open to any suggestion on how to imprement the
 API, features, missing fields, etc.

Please add sopport for at least alt, speed, heading, hdop, vdop, pdop,
signal strength. If the projects plan to share their data, all
projects should gather the same (full!) data of the cells to reach the
highest possible precision. Coverage is something you'll be able to
reach by everyone focusing on their own projects AND sharing the data.

I must say I like opencellID API: it has clear addresses how to
put/get cell information or GPS location. THis is something where
openbmap is behind.
And if OpenCellID has a nice api, it's good, but if I see that it
doesn't use speed nor hdop/vdop/alt in calculating the location I
trust openbmap more - but it's lacking the proper API.

- work for both of you to do. Focus on it, not in rhetorics 
communication issues. Just make your project better than the other one
is and share the data. It's the best for the community!





r

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote:
 OpenBmap stores this data:
 http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/myposition/wiki/log_format

 * mcc
 * mnc
 * lon
 * lat
 * alt
 * heading
 * speed
 * hdop
 * vdop
 * pdop
 * swid: software id of the logger
 * swver: software version of the logger
 * lac: decimal value
 * id: decimal value of the cell id
 * ss: signal strength in dBm
 * rxlev: optional
 * ta: timing advance, optional
 * speed: in km/h

 OpenCellID stores these (source: http://opencellid.org/api)

 mcc: mobile country code(decimal)
 mnc: mobile network code(decimal)
 lac: locale area code (in decimal)
 cellid: value of the cell id (in decimal)
 measured_at (optionnal) the time of the measure...
 lat:latitude when the measure has been taken
 lon:longitude when the measure has been taken


Ok, downloaded the cellhunter database, this is what it stores:

providercell_mcccell_mnccell_la cell_id cell_arfcn  
signal  gps_timegps_lat gps_longgps_alt gname   local_time  
cell_type
IL ORANGE   425 1   3AFCA2F992  19  1252151461  
32.3668973  34.8627705  17.44   Baruch  1252185642  old_oldgps_near
IL ORANGE   425 1   3AFC7D54630 6   1252151461  
32.3668973  34.8627705  17.44   Baruch  1252185370  old_oldgps_near
IL ORANGE   425 1   1D6079CD107 17  1252151461  
32.3668973  34.8627705  17.44   Baruch  1252185368  new_gps

altitude is stored, good
speed missing, bad
hdop/vdop/pdop missing
heading missing (ok, I can't right now see how to use it but why not
to store it, it might become useful in the future..)
cell arfcn, no idea what's that..

So anyway also cellhunter could add some fields here and as it's on
Freerunner only, it shouldn't be too hard to also add the support to
the client.



r



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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

Btw you all three (openbmap, cellhunter, opencellid) devels are warmly
welcome to join FOSS-GPS -mailing list
(http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/foss-gps) - I'd like to see
discussion about the algorithms you use to calculate the position of
the cells. It must be something else than just the average... As a
used I'd like to know it but also I think there's some optimization to
be done in the field. If OpenBMap uses also speed  GPS precision
information  alt in the calculation, I'd like to see the algorithm..


r



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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-06 Thread Alex (Maxious) Sadleir

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote:


 Ok, downloaded the cellhunter database, this is what it stores:

 provider        cell_mcc        cell_mnc        cell_la cell_id cell_arfcn    
   signal  gps_time        gps_lat gps_long        gps_alt gname   local_time  
     cell_type
 IL ORANGE       425     1       3AFC    A2F9    92      19      1252151461    
   32.3668973      34.8627705      17.44   Baruch  1252185642      
 old_oldgps_near
 IL ORANGE       425     1       3AFC    7D54    630     6       1252151461    
   32.3668973      34.8627705      17.44   Baruch  1252185370      
 old_oldgps_near
 IL ORANGE       425     1       1D60    79CD    107     17      1252151461    
   32.3668973      34.8627705      17.44   Baruch  1252185368      new_gps

 altitude is stored, good
 speed missing, bad
 hdop/vdop/pdop missing
 heading missing (ok, I can't right now see how to use it but why not
 to store it, it might become useful in the future..)
 cell arfcn, no idea what's that..

 So anyway also cellhunter could add some fields here and as it's on
 Freerunner only, it shouldn't be too hard to also add the support to
 the client.


I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko
OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api
wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the
OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records
produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after
collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs
folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app.
YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out
between themselves.
from xml.dom import minidom
import os,dbus,urllib

OBMhunter submitter 0.1.0  maxi...@lambdacomplex.org
Submits appropriate openBMap xml logs to cellhunter DB.

Installation:
Patch the openBMap logger library:
patch  obm_hunter-logger.py.patch

Change the group name (gname), group password (gpass) and device id (a 
random number - check .cellhunter.conf if you want to be consistent) if
you want your results to count for a group's score. Otherwise leave 
defaults to remain anonymous.

Then just run the OBM logger as usual but you have to run this script after 
collecting the logs
but before you move them to the Processed Logs folder in OBM. So I do it before 
I do Upload in 
the OBM logger app.

gname=
gpass=
device_id=0

bus = dbus.SystemBus()
ogsmd_obj = bus.get_object( org.freesmartphone.ogsmd, 
/org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device )
ogsmd_network_iface = dbus.Interface( ogsmd_obj, 
org.freesmartphone.GSM.Network )
data = ogsmd_network_iface.GetStatus()
provider = urllib.quote(data['provider'])


path=/home/root/.openBmap/Logs/
dirList=os.listdir(path)
for fname in dirList:
print Processing  + fname
dom = minidom.parse(path + fname)
for scannode in dom.getElementsByTagName(scan):
for gpsnode in scannode.getElementsByTagName(gps):
time = int(gpsnode.getAttribute(time))
lat  = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(lat))
long = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(lng))
alt  = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(alt))
for child in scannode.childNodes:
if gsm in child.tagName:
cell_mcc   = int(child.getAttribute(mcc))
cell_mnc   = int(child.getAttribute(mnc))
cell_la= int(child.getAttribute(lac))
cell_id= int(child.getAttribute(id))
if (child.getAttribute(rxlev) != )  
(child.getAttribute(arfcn) != ):
signal = 
int(child.getAttribute(rxlev))
cell_arfcn = 
int(child.getAttribute(arfcn))
serving= 1 if (child.tagName == 
gsmserving) else 0
URL = 
http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/submit.php?provider=%scell_mcc=%dcell_mnc=%dcell_la=%xcell_id=%xsignal=%dtime=%dlat=%flong=%falt=%fgname=%sgpass=%sdevice_id=%dcell_arfcn=%dserving=%d
  %(provider, 
cell_mcc,cell_mnc,cell_la,cell_id,signal,time,lat,long,alt,gname,gpass,device_id,cell_arfcn,serving)

os.system('wget --user-agent OBMhunter 
0.1.0 offline maxi...@lambdacomplex.org -q --output-document=- \' + URL + 
'\')
print \n



obm_hunter-logger.py.patch
Description: Binary data
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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Alex (Maxious) Sadleirmaxi...@gmail.com wrote:
 I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko
 OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api
 wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the
 OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records
 produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after
 collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs
 folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app.
 YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out
 between themselves.

Nice hack!

Do you have any idea what's arfcn - how do you generate it? If you can
generate it after the data's collected, couldn't it be created
server-side (to me it sound's redundant information if it's generated
from other data).

And I don't support the idea of one client uploading to several
databases, the databases should do the syncing..


r


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-06 Thread Alex (Maxious) Sadleir

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote:
 On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Alex (Maxious) Sadleirmaxi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko
 OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api
 wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the
 OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records
 produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after
 collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs
 folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app.
 YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out
 between themselves.

 Nice hack!

 Do you have any idea what's arfcn - how do you generate it? If you can
 generate it after the data's collected, couldn't it be created
 server-side (to me it sound's redundant information if it's generated
 from other data).
ARFCN (Absolute Radio Frequency Channel Number) specifies a pair of
physical radio carriers and channels used for transmission and
reception on the Um Interface in GSM cellular networks, one for the
uplink signal and one for the downlink signal.
So it's data to be collected from the cell station rather than
something that could be generated/assumed/estimated. Without seeing
the cellhunter location algorithm, I don't know how it helps location
calculation either... but if the other two DB don't store it, then it
can't be that important, right? ;)


 And I don't support the idea of one client uploading to several
 databases, the databases should do the syncing..
Well I was having to run the loggers in parallel anyway but it's
easier to get one working consistently rather than two... and I prefer
the way the OBM logger is designed anyway :)
DB sync is where it should be though. I've uploaded different areas to
either cellhunter or OBM so it would be good to get them combined
efficently.

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

  Hello Risto,

 note that strengh is already part of the opencellid api.

  As I've pointed out once, the problem is not all client have access
to these data. So do we add all possible fields in the database? Out
of the 45 millions of measures, only several millions might have all
these data.
  My suggestion, implemented today in the opencellid api is the
following: add the missing informaiton in the extraInfo field, as
tag/value.
  For instance, extraInfo=speed=123,alt=12,hdop=12,vdop=6 etc.
This is already used by some tools for instance the cellhunter
importer put the team name as gteam=team name value.
  Then, the algorithm to define the cell might use these extra info.

  The bad thing is that it would by quite difficult to do query on
this extra things. I do not thing that it's the biggest issue. The
other problem might be that we need to find a common naming for all
possible new fields and ensure validity. For instance, use alt and not
altitude, etc One possible option is to add hese as extra possible
parameters so it will be checked, but store them as value/pair.
  Other fields could be added also, to store for instance user agent
instead of software version for others type of platforms, or accuracy
but not defined in hdop/vdop value but in others type (see JSR179 or
Android API).

  Any opininon on this.


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8Motions
Founder/CTO
http://www.8motions.com
http://www.opencellid.org

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

  Thanks for the information, I'll subscribe to it.

2009/9/6 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 Btw you all three (openbmap, cellhunter, opencellid) devels are warmly
 welcome to join FOSS-GPS -mailing list
 (http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/foss-gps) - I'd like to see
 discussion about the algorithms you use to calculate the position of
 the cells. It must be something else than just the average... As a
 used I'd like to know it but also I think there's some optimization to
 be done in the field. If OpenBMap uses also speed  GPS precision
 information  alt in the calculation, I'd like to see the algorithm..


 r



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Founder/CTO
http://www.8motions.com
http://www.opencellid.org

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Yorick Moko

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi wrote:

 On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Thomas
 Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
   Again , and clarifiacation:
 
   ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells),
  the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;)

 Yes, I knew that OBM had imported from OCI but to me the only thing
 that matters is how many cells a service has to be used to calculate
 the locations of cells, no matter where's the data from. The more data
 a service has, the more reliable  usable it is for a user (if there
 were applications capable of using any of the services to do the
 location). So if all three services would sync their info daily/weekly
 with having some of their own extra fields I'd be happy as they all
 would benefit from each other and they all would have the same sources
 to do the locationing the only difference being the algorithms. Yes of
 course it'd be a waste of work to maintain three databases.. but isn't
 that the case now anyway?

   I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into
 OpenCellID too

 Is there something that stops you from doing so?

 r

 this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view:

openBmap has the most cells
openBmap maps the most information

all I want is as much cells as possible
AND
know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data
(AFAIK cellhunter logs less information)

openBmap does the trick for both of them

this is of course a personal opinion

y
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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com wrote:
 this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view:

 openBmap has the most cells
 openBmap maps the most information

 all I want is as much cells as possible
 AND
 know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data
 (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information)

 openBmap does the trick for both of them

+1

(and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the
location based on GPS cells)

But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm
thumbs up for it!


r

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Thomas Landspurg

   Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions

   I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay
polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he
disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without
success

2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com wrote:
 this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view:

 openBmap has the most cells
 openBmap maps the most information

 all I want is as much cells as possible
 AND
 know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data
 (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information)

 openBmap does the trick for both of them

 +1

 (and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the
 location based on GPS cells)

 But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm
 thumbs up for it!


 r

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Yorick Moko

he used to be on  #openmoko-cdevel (nick: OnenBmap)
but I haven't seen him in a long time
maybe somebody there knows more about it

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Thomas Landspurg
t.landsp...@8motions.comwrote:

   Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions

   I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay
 polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he
 disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without
 success

 2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
  On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view:
 
  openBmap has the most cells
  openBmap maps the most information
 
  all I want is as much cells as possible
  AND
  know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data
  (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information)
 
  openBmap does the trick for both of them
 
  +1
 
  (and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the
  location based on GPS cells)
 
  But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm
  thumbs up for it!
 
 
  r
 
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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak

On 9/3/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions

I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay
 polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he
 disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without
 success

He just returned (few minutes ago). He explained on IRC that he was
offline thanks to his new internet provider :P

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Onen

Hi,

I was away from my computer, I try to go now through my emails...

Thomas Landspurg wrote:
Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions
 
I have some point of disagreement,

Please tell.

  but I would like first to stay
 polite

You imply you think you have good reasons not to. I think you should 
simply tell what you think.

  and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he
 disappear? 

!!!

I am trying to contact him since more than a week without
 success
 

I find very ironic that you find more than a week thaat long.

Onen


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-03 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

I have no idea what's going on between you people but:

Now that I had a little thought, I really don't care how many copies
of the database we have. All I care about is that

a) there's a way to use the data (=a client capable to locate me based
on the GSM cells around me)
b) the client uses the database with most cells.

- as long as all three projects have proper API's to import/export
data and they do it from the other 2 projects things work.

It kind of makes sense if the projects use different ways to collect
the data. One has it as a competition, one uses some clients to
collect the data, another uses other clients and projects. And in the
end they all benefit from the work of others.

Just some points for you to discuss:
a) common api or data format to import/export
b) common api to submit cells


r - goes out to find some cells

(no, not really, I'll watch an episode of CSI :)



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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Thomas Landspurg

  Hello Risto,

  Here is a few facts from such FAQ:

 Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the
'untrusted ones')

 One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID
provides a complete access to the data and the measures.

 OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files
mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have
any OpenMoko phone to test it.

  I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not
involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and
others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration
effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the
data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to
support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed.
  Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an
integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate
them.
  Regards,

2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org wrote:
 How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ?

 I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's :)

 CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html
 and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?)
 OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client:
 http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories)
 OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients:
 http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download

 * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from
 other projects.

 AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each
 other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just
 collect the cells.
 AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects
 AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important
 data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels.

 To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects.
 Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to
 find the position of a phone, right?

 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj
 cellhunter cells?
 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet
 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner

 I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just
 easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of
 these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of
 Open Source. Can't really see it here.

 r

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Leonti Bielski

So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project?
For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses
some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then
obm could import new data and everyone would be happy.

Leonti

Leonti

On 9/2/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
   Hello Risto,

   Here is a few facts from such FAQ:

  Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the
 'untrusted ones')

  One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID
 provides a complete access to the data and the measures.

  OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files
 mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have
 any OpenMoko phone to test it.

   I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not
 involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and
 others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration
 effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the
 data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to
 support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed.
   Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an
 integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate
 them.
   Regards,

 2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org
 wrote:
 How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ?

 I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's
 :)

 CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html
 and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?)
 OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client:
 http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories)
 OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients:
 http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download

 * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from
 other projects.

 AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each
 other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just
 collect the cells.
 AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects
 AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important
 data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels.

 To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects.
 Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to
 find the position of a phone, right?

 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj
 cellhunter cells?
 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet
 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner

 I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just
 easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of
 these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of
 Open Source. Can't really see it here.

 r

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Petr Vanek

So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project?
For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses
some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then
obm could import new data and everyone would be happy.

Leonti

yes, it is lots of fun :) , the website is down now, what team do you
kick for? :))

Petr


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak

On 9/2/09, Leonti Bielski prishe...@gmail.com wrote:
 So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project?
 For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses
 some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then
 obm could import new data and everyone would be happy.

 Leonti

 Leonti

 On 9/2/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
   Hello Risto,

   Here is a few facts from such FAQ:

  Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the
 'untrusted ones')

  One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID
 provides a complete access to the data and the measures.

  OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files
 mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have
 any OpenMoko phone to test it.

   I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not
 involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and
 others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration
 effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the
 data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to
 support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed.
   Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an
 integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate
 them.
   Regards,

 2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org
 wrote:
 How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ?

 I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in
 FAQ's
 :)

 CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html
 and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?)
 OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client:
 http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories)
 OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients:
 http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download

 * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from
 other projects.

 AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each
 other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just
 collect the cells.
 AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects
 AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important
 data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels.

 To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects.
 Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to
 find the position of a phone, right?

 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj
 cellhunter cells?
 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet
 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner

 I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just
 easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of
 these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of
 Open Source. Can't really see it here.

 r

When I tried Cellhunter (in early stage of its development), it didn't
feel so bullet-proof and stable, and I noticed I was collecting points
for invalid data which happened sometimes. And when moving, clicking
update constanly was giving me always 1 point more, and offline mode
wasn't so usable, so I had to colllect cells during GPRS connection,
which wasn't so stable these days. Maybe it changed now (well, i would
be supriced if it didn't :P), but openBmap client, data and website
just feel better, and most of important FSO and SHR devs are using
openBmap to collect cells - that's good enough recomendation to me ;)

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Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server

2009-09-02 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

So,. everything should be fine now, please visit
http://cellhunter.omoco.de for the new version and report any bugs you find.

Greetings, Sebastian

ps: no deb package yet but will come

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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

About the amount of cells, could someone explain me how many cells
(with some kind of location information) cellhunter knows:

http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/images/cellhunter_statistic_all.png
explained here:
http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/?hideintro=1orderby=beginat=

7milj (don't know where I got it from.. sorry for misleading..) is the
number of ALL submits but to me it looks like that the no of cells is
around 141371 (NCG) + 7572 (OCnG) = 148 943 cells. The rest are just
more gps information for a single cell. Am I wrong?

So to recap:
OpenBMap: 479740 cells (of which 82963 are 'trusted')
OpenCellID: 433574 cells
CellHunter: 148 943 cells

r


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Thomas Landspurg

  Again , and clarifiacation:

 ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells),
the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;)


 OpenCellID: 433 574 cells
 CellHunter:  148 943 cells
 OpenBMap:  82 963 cells

 (sorry for talking the risk of being the 'bad' guy agin, but at the
end that's a little bit annoying)

  I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into OpenCellID too


2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi:
 About the amount of cells, could someone explain me how many cells
 (with some kind of location information) cellhunter knows:

 http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/images/cellhunter_statistic_all.png
 explained here:
 http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/?hideintro=1orderby=beginat=

 7milj (don't know where I got it from.. sorry for misleading..) is the
 number of ALL submits but to me it looks like that the no of cells is
 around 141371 (NCG) + 7572 (OCnG) = 148 943 cells. The rest are just
 more gps information for a single cell. Am I wrong?

 So to recap:
 OpenBMap: 479740 cells (of which 82963 are 'trusted')
 OpenCellID: 433574 cells
 CellHunter: 148 943 cells

 r


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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-02 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Thomas
Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote:
  Again , and clarifiacation:

  ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells),
 the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;)

Yes, I knew that OBM had imported from OCI but to me the only thing
that matters is how many cells a service has to be used to calculate
the locations of cells, no matter where's the data from. The more data
a service has, the more reliable  usable it is for a user (if there
were applications capable of using any of the services to do the
location). So if all three services would sync their info daily/weekly
with having some of their own extra fields I'd be happy as they all
would benefit from each other and they all would have the same sources
to do the locationing the only difference being the algorithms. Yes of
course it'd be a waste of work to maintain three databases.. but isn't
that the case now anyway?

  I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into OpenCellID 
 too

Is there something that stops you from doing so?

r


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CellHunter is moving to a new server

2009-09-01 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

Hi,

CellHunter is getting a new faster server!

So CellHunter is moving. At the moment I am migrating the database to
the new system and will check if everything is ok with the data. The bad
part of the move is that I have to release a new version because the
submit adress is hardcoded to the old ip :( But the new version will
contain a dns name and some bugfixes.

So please be patient and save your logs while I am moving to the new
server and then update CellHunter to the new version. I will send an
email again when everything is over. You can also check
http://cellhunter.omoco.de I will update this subdomain as soon all is
ready.

All is getting faster and better - I promise :)

Greetings, Sebastian

ps: the database now contains over 7 million entries and is about 1,5GB big.

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Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server

2009-09-01 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 11:58:42PM +0200, Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 CellHunter is getting a new faster server!
 
 So CellHunter is moving. At the moment I am migrating the database to
 the new system and will check if everything is ok with the data. The bad
 part of the move is that I have to release a new version because the
 submit adress is hardcoded to the old ip :( But the new version will
 contain a dns name and some bugfixes.
 
 So please be patient and save your logs while I am moving to the new
 server and then update CellHunter to the new version. I will send an
 email again when everything is over. You can also check
 http://cellhunter.omoco.de I will update this subdomain as soon all is
 ready.
 
 All is getting faster and better - I promise :)
 
 Greetings, Sebastian
 
 ps: the database now contains over 7 million entries and is about 1,5GB big.

How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ?

Rui

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cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)

2009-09-01 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org wrote:
 How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ?

I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's :)

CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html
and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?)
OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client:
http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories)
OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients:
http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download

* trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from
other projects.

AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each
other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just
collect the cells.
AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects
AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important
data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels.

To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects.
Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to
find the position of a phone, right?

1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj
cellhunter cells?
2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet
3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner

I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just
easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of
these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of
Open Source. Can't really see it here.

r

-- 
| risto h. kurppa
| risto at kurppa dot fi
| http://risto.kurppa.fi

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[cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Davide Scaini

Hi guys...
i want ot ask if cellhunter data is going to be integrated for exampre in
tangogps for positioning without gps...
thanks
d

(and:
*Shortnews:* 02/05/2009 - You want see something new? Click
herehttp://78.47.116.33/%7Ehole/cellhunter/images/tangogps.png.
View all cells in Tangogps! Available soon
what about this? ;-) )
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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread tb

As far as I know it is planned to integrate the data in fso so tangogps
would benefit from that too

2009/8/6 Davide Scaini dsca...@gmail.com

 Hi guys...
 i want ot ask if cellhunter data is going to be integrated for exampre in
 tangogps for positioning without gps...
 thanks
 d

 (and:
 *Shortnews:* 02/05/2009 - You want see something new? Click 
 herehttp://78.47.116.33/%7Ehole/cellhunter/images/tangogps.png.
 View all cells in Tangogps! Available soon
 what about this? ;-) )

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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Onen

Hi,

I am currently working on this, a D-Bus location service for the FR. I 
work with the openBmap data though.

I already had some talks with FSO people, in order to see how we can 
collaborate on this.

Onen


tb wrote:
 As far as I know it is planned to integrate the data in fso so tangogps 
 would benefit from that too
 
 2009/8/6 Davide Scaini dsca...@gmail.com mailto:dsca...@gmail.com
 
 Hi guys...
 i want ot ask if cellhunter data is going to be integrated for
 exampre in tangogps for positioning without gps...
 thanks
 d
 
 (and:
 *Shortnews:* 02/05/2009 - You want see something new? Click here
 http://78.47.116.33/%7Ehole/cellhunter/images/tangogps.png. View
 all cells in Tangogps! Available soon
 what about this? ;-) )
 
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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Petr Vanek

I am currently working on this, a D-Bus location service for the FR. I 
work with the openBmap data though.

I already had some talks with FSO people, in order to see how we can 
collaborate on this.

this sounds like i come first, the rest doesn't matter to me. 
we have data in both openbmap and cellhunter, can we make sure both are
utilized?

Petr



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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Stefan Schmidt

Hello.

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:40, Petr Vanek wrote:
 I am currently working on this, a D-Bus location service for the FR. I 
 work with the openBmap data though.
 
 I already had some talks with FSO people, in order to see how we can 
 collaborate on this.
 
 this sounds like i come first, the rest doesn't matter to me. 
 we have data in both openbmap and cellhunter, can we make sure both are
 utilized?

And that sounds like You are doing the job, but I tell you what to do. :)

As discussed several times on this very ml the cellhunter data finds his way
into the openbmap database via opencellid.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Petr Vanek

On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:40, Petr Vanek wrote:
 I am currently working on this, a D-Bus location service for the
 FR. I work with the openBmap data though.
 
 I already had some talks with FSO people, in order to see how we
 can collaborate on this.
 
 this sounds like i come first, the rest doesn't matter to me. 
 we have data in both openbmap and cellhunter, can we make sure both
 are utilized?

And that sounds like You are doing the job, but I tell you what to
do. :)

i realize that, and it's not that way. it just feels silly to even
think about not utilizibng all the c.h. data

As discussed several times on this very ml the cellhunter data finds
his way into the openbmap database via opencellid.

looking forward to that...

Petr


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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Onen

Hi,

Petr Vanek wrote:
 On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 19:40, Petr Vanek wrote:
 I am currently working on this, a D-Bus location service for the
 FR. I work with the openBmap data though.

 I already had some talks with FSO people, in order to see how we
 can collaborate on this.
 this sounds like i come first, the rest doesn't matter to me. 
 we have data in both openbmap and cellhunter, can we make sure both
 are utilized?
 And that sounds like You are doing the job, but I tell you what to
 do. :)
 
 i realize that, and it's not that way. it just feels silly to even
 think about not utilizibng all the c.h. data
 

I don't think I said something about not using the data :-)

We have imported data from opencellid to bring right now the best 
coverage for the users. And plan to replace it with time with our data. 
Sebastian, from cellhunter said a couple of times he would import his 
data into opencellid.

 As discussed several times on this very ml the cellhunter data finds
 his way into the openbmap database via opencellid.
 

Exactly, as explained above.

Of course you could give openBmap a try, thus your new data would be 
there directly ;-)

Onen

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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Petr Vanek

Exactly, as explained above.

good :)

Of course you could give openBmap a try, thus your new data would be 
there directly ;-)

i better :)

what if i run openbmap and cellhunter at the same time? Should run ok,
as it only uses fso calls... 

Petr


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Re: [cellhunter] about positioning

2009-08-06 Thread Onen

Petr Vanek wrote:
 
 what if i run openbmap and cellhunter at the same time? Should run ok,
 as it only uses fso calls... 
 

openBmap uses only FSO API. I think c.h. uses FSO Debug API to send AT 
commands.

So I guess this should not be a problem.

Onen

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-08 Thread Onen

Hi,

very nice work! Thanks for taking the time of doing this.

Christian Gagneraud wrote:
 For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few 
 data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
 - provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g 
 getStatus() or Status() signal

Would not be too difficult ;-)

 - arfcn: current channel number, as reported by 
 fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()

This will be in next version.

 And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
 - signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command 

The dBm is a direct formula out of the GSM spec. So you should be able 
to go from one to the other very easily.

 So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this 
 way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will 
 give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever 
 database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH 
 server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced 
 of the higher quality of their data).
 

Well and what if cellhunter changes his API, and or the data it uploads? 
I fear having to follow every move of cellhunter to catch up with his 
modifications. In the end my app will be tagged as unstable/not working 
every time it does not succeed in uploading to ch.

Cellhunter does have rules for the game (uploaded online, offline, maybe 
depends of data) which leads to the number of points you get. I wonder 
if you would get all the points you should, with an obm (fairly) 
compatible logger.

Well if somebody feels like maintaining such a mechanism, he can get in 
touch with me.

 Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
 - It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use 
 percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...
 

I try to think about cpu usage when building my application. But to be 
honest, once I talked with someone about this, and he made a good point:
this is absolutely nothing in comparison of using python instead of C, 
vala, etc.

Onen


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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-07 Thread Christian Gagneraud

Christian Gagneraud wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
 are still usable by OBM.
 
 Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of 
 course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
 Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?

I did a comparison of what's get logged/store by CH, OBM and OCI 
logger/database:


Cell data:
==
 OBM CH  OCI
timex   x   x
providerx
mmc x   x   x
mnc x   x   x
lac x   x   x
id  x   x   x
signal (1)  x   x
arfcn   x
type (2)x (3)
ta  x (3)
c1  x (4)
c2  x (4)
serving x   x

GPS data:
=
 OBM CH  OCI
timex
lat x   x   x
longx   x   x
alt x   x
heading x
speed   x
hdopx
vdopx
pdopx

Meta data:
==
 OBM CH  OCI
hwmanuf x
hwidx   x
hwver   x
swidx   x (5)
swver   x   x (5)
login/pass/key  x   x   x

(1) OBM: signal strength in dBM and rxlevel in % (?), CH: signal 
strength according to GSM specs
(2) Network type: GSM, UMTS, HSDPA, ...
(3) OBM: only with serving cells
(4) OBM: only with non-serving cells
(5) Via HTTP agent when uploading


So finally, OCI logs basic information, CH a bit more, and OBM a lot 
more.

Here is the compatibility matrix between the loggers and the servers 
(database):

  SERVER
 OCICHOBM   
L G  OCI x
O E  CH  x x
G R  OBM xx


Both CH and OBM loggers can be used to populate OCI database.
For CH logger to be compatible with OBM database, there's lot of data 
that need to be added to the CH logger.
For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few 
data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
- provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g 
getStatus() or Status() signal
- arfcn: current channel number, as reported by 
fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()
And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
- signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command

So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this 
way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will 
give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever 
database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH 
server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced 
of the higher quality of their data).

Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
- I was really surprised to see that CH logger use AT commands 
directly (via fso.GSM.Debug), whereas OBM logger use plainly the FSO 
interface.
- It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use 
percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...

Chris

PS: I don't pretend that this analysis is accurate nor mistake-free, 
so please correct me if i'm wrong somewhere.

 
 Chris.
 
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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-07 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

hi,

Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
 Christian Gagneraud wrote:
   
 Hi all,

 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
 are still usable by OBM.

 Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of 
 course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
 Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?
 

 I did a comparison of what's get logged/store by CH, OBM and OCI 
 logger/database:

 
 Cell data:
 ==
  OBM CH  OCI
 timex   x   x
 providerx
 mmc x   x   x
 mnc x   x   x
 lac x   x   x
 id  x   x   x
 signal (1)  x   x
 arfcn   x
 type (2)x (3)
 ta  x (3)
 c1  x (4)
 c2  x (4)
 serving x   x

 GPS data:
 =
  OBM CH  OCI
 timex
 lat x   x   x
 longx   x   x
 alt x   x
 heading x
 speed   x
 hdopx
 vdopx
 pdopx

   
Cellhunter does save the gps time.

greetings, Sebastian
 Meta data:
 ==
  OBM CH  OCI
 hwmanuf x
 hwidx   x
 hwver   x
 swidx   x (5)
 swver   x   x (5)
 login/pass/key  x   x   x

 (1) OBM: signal strength in dBM and rxlevel in % (?), CH: signal 
 strength according to GSM specs
 (2) Network type: GSM, UMTS, HSDPA, ...
 (3) OBM: only with serving cells
 (4) OBM: only with non-serving cells
 (5) Via HTTP agent when uploading
 

 So finally, OCI logs basic information, CH a bit more, and OBM a lot 
 more.

 Here is the compatibility matrix between the loggers and the servers 
 (database):

   SERVER
  OCICHOBM 
 L G  OCI x
 O E  CH  x x
 G R  OBM xx


 Both CH and OBM loggers can be used to populate OCI database.
 For CH logger to be compatible with OBM database, there's lot of data 
 that need to be added to the CH logger.
 For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few 
 data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
 - provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g 
 getStatus() or Status() signal
 - arfcn: current channel number, as reported by 
 fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()
 And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
 - signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command

 So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this 
 way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will 
 give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever 
 database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH 
 server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced 
 of the higher quality of their data).

 Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
 - I was really surprised to see that CH logger use AT commands 
 directly (via fso.GSM.Debug), whereas OBM logger use plainly the FSO 
 interface.
 - It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use 
 percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...

 Chris

 PS: I don't pretend that this analysis is accurate nor mistake-free, 
 so please correct me if i'm wrong somewhere.

   
 Chris.

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-05 Thread Sebastian Hammerl



Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
 Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
   
 Hi,

 

 Hi Sebastian,

   
 about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap
 format.

 I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the
 result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the
 cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some
 mails here around with reasons for that.
 

 Yes, i've read about this, and i think that it's worth logging too 
 much data than not enough...

   
 But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I
 know the largest open cellid database. And my opinion is that everyone
 should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database
 so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world
 this data gets usefull.
 

 I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any 
 information concerning the database, how can a user access the data 
 for example...

   
there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw 
data.
 I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be
 the cellhunter data in in future.
 

 That's a good point, but for example, yesterday evening i've uploaded 
 lot of data (about 5 hours sampling every 10 seconds, while moving by 
 boat along the coast), and now i would like to reuse these data, 
 exploit them, plot them, ... with existing web application or by 
 writing my own tool, the API offered by cellhunter doesn't really fit 
 my needs that's why i want to have a look at OBM's API.

 Do you know how often CH is imported into opencellid, and how often 
 opencellid are imported into OBM?

   
cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to
prepare the data for that but it will happen.

Sebastian
 Cheers,
 Chris


   
 Greetings, Sebastian
 (CellHunter developer)

 Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
 
 Hi all,

 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
 are still usable by OBM.

 Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of 
 course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
 Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?

 Chris.

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-05 Thread Stefan Schmidt

Hello.

On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 10:14, Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 
 Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
  Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 
  I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any 
  information concerning the database, how can a user access the data 
  for example...
 

 there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw 
 data.


I bet he has the same issue I still have here with Firefox 3.0.9. The link list
is not viewable.

Try to mark all the text on the page with your mouse and you will discover those
links.

 cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to
 prepare the data for that but it will happen.

BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then?

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-05 Thread Christian Gagneraud

Stefan Schmidt wrote:
 Hello.
 
 On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 10:14, Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
 Sebastian Hammerl wrote:

 I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any 
 information concerning the database, how can a user access the data 
 for example...

   
 there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw 
 data.
 
 
 I bet he has the same issue I still have here with Firefox 3.0.9. The link 
 list
 is not viewable.

Well spotted!!! :)

Really, when i visited the web site, i thought it was just an empty 
shell (no information, no docs, no links, nothing...), and i said to 
myself They should rename their web site notsoopencellid.org!

But with you trick, the truth appears to me! :)

Thanks,
Chris

 
 Try to mark all the text on the page with your mouse and you will discover 
 those
 links.
 
 cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to
 prepare the data for that but it will happen.
 
 BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then?
 
 regards
 Stefan Schmidt
 
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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

Hi,

Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap
 format.
 

This is most probably doable, just a matter of converting it. What 
annoys me, is that ch will upload to oci, we will import oci data on 
regular basis. If we import the data from ch, we have to detect ch data 
in oci data when importing. Which makes more work.

 I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the
 result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the
 cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some
 mails here around with reasons for that.
 

Please see the email from Stefan, about elaborating on this.

 But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I
 know the largest open cellid database.

Not anymore, now that we have the data from oci, obm is the largest 
database ;-) . Why did we import it? We think the data from oci could be 
of better quality with some additions. So far, we could not get an 
agreement about this from Thomas. So we still aim at people logging 
through obm for better quality. But to propose right now the best 
coverage to our users, we use oci data too, where no obm data is 
available. But the idea is to replace it with obm data with time, as it 
comes in.

  And my opinion is that everyone
 should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database
 so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world
 this data gets usefull.
 

I disagree. Without a good quality, you will end up with lot of data 
(possibly) unuseful because less accurate, or corrupted (through buggy 
logging software, for example). Coverage is not the key by itself.
And we proposed to merge our database in oci (with the extra fields we 
are interested in), but we did not get an answer about this. So if we 
upload to oci, we can only upload the smaller number of supported 
fields, thus we help building a less accurate database than we have. It 
does not make any sense to me.

 I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be
 the cellhunter data in in future.
 

Cool, you make the announcement for us ;-) Joke aside, Nick is finishing 
testing it, that is the reason we did not talk about this so far.

Onen


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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

Hi,

Christian Gagneraud wrote:
 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.

Thanks for the contributions!

 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?

Please see my response in the other email (about detecting ch data in 
importing oci if we import ch data too).

 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
 are still usable by OBM.
 

That is correct. And if the ch data ends up in oci, then we will import 
it indirectly.

Onen


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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

Hi,

Christian Gagneraud wrote:
 Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be
 the cellhunter data in in future.
 
 That's a good point, but for example, yesterday evening i've uploaded 
 lot of data (about 5 hours sampling every 10 seconds, while moving by 
 boat along the coast), and now i would like to reuse these data, 
 exploit them, plot them, ... with existing web application or by 
 writing my own tool, the API offered by cellhunter doesn't really fit 
 my needs that's why i want to have a look at OBM's API.
 

You can find the Web based API from obm here:
http://realtimeblog.free.fr/api/openbmap_api.php

Feel free to tell if this does not fit your needs. Let me know what you 
need, to see what I can do for you.

I also have a prototype of D-bus service running on the phone, which 
uses local database built on top of obm data, to get my position. This 
is only a proof of concept, but it works.

 Do you know how often CH is imported into opencellid, and how often 
 opencellid are imported into OBM?
 

We import oci data in order to built better service right now to our 
users (see my other email for details). But we don't plan to do this 
very often. If you want to see your data in obm, the best way is to 
upload directly to it for sure. It gets processed right away.

 Cheers,
 Chris

Onen


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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

Hi,

Stefan Schmidt wrote:
 cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to
 prepare the data for that but it will happen.
 
 BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then?
 

That is a very good point. As I stated in another email on this thread, 
if we would upload obm data to oci, we could only upload the subset of 
data it supports.

This annoys me, because if ch uploads to oci, and then obm import oci 
data, we lose some infos :-(

But if we import ch data directly, we have to manage not to import from 
oci data, what comes from ch, which is more work...

Onen


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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

Hi,

thanks for the nice comments!

Yorick Moko wrote:
 My personal preference goes out to openBmap,
 because I think they combine quality and quantity;
 quality: they log the most data (they are even working on TA)
 quantity: they have all the cells of cellhunter and opencellid
 

For now, we only have the cells from oci, just to avoid misunderstanding.

 I could be mistaken but from what i heard from onen (the creator of
 openBmap) on ML and irc, I got the impression that he DOES want to
 work together,
 just not only sharing data, but i could be wrong
 

For the records, Nick created openBmap, not me :-)

Onen


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Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-04 Thread Christian Gagneraud

Hi all,

I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
are still usable by OBM.

Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of 
course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?

Chris.

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-04 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

Hi,

about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap
format.

I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the
result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the
cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some
mails here around with reasons for that.

But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I
know the largest open cellid database. And my opinion is that everyone
should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database
so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world
this data gets usefull.

I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be
the cellhunter data in in future.

Greetings, Sebastian
(CellHunter developer)

Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
 Hi all,

 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some 
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert 
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data 
 are still usable by OBM.

 Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of 
 course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
 Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?

 Chris.

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-04 Thread Risto H. Kurppa

At some stage I heard that Openbmap would save more information
compared to opencellid.

I don't know where's the problem but I really can't see why there has
to be three databases for the same stuff - I'd guess it's just because
of selfish people not willing to share and let others contribute or
modify their way of working to suit the others. Too bad..


r

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-04 Thread Stefan Schmidt

Hello.

On Thu, 2009-06-04 at 20:28, Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 At some stage I heard that Openbmap would save more information
 compared to opencellid.
 
 I don't know where's the problem but I really can't see why there has
 to be three databases for the same stuff - I'd guess it's just because
 of selfish people not willing to share and let others contribute or
 modify their way of working to suit the others. Too bad..

It's not that simple. Read the long threads we had about that in the past.

Summarize:

- opencellid was there first. Not much responses in the beginning. Got better in
  the end. I asked them if they are interested to extend their database to have
  fields for the quality of the gps signal and also logging other things like
  wifi APs. Tried it two times, no answer.

- openbmap came later and has a smaller database. On the other hand they have
  the idea of logging cell informations with more informations about the
  quality. Quality vs quantity gives them less cells of course. The also have
  the idea of more then just GSM cells.

- cellhunter made a great start due to the game character

- cellhunter data gets feed into opencell id

- openbmap imports the opencellid db

From the FSO perspective we have several points that we need before we would
write code in the framework using it (and of course also contributing to it):

- Access to the server side source code.

- We prefer quality over quantity.

- We like to log wifi ap's as well.

- DB available as download.

After all the mails we had about that I don't think a cooperation more then what
is happening atm is likely. Sad but reality.

So far OpenBmap has been the most cooperative project from the FSO view. Once
the last issue, access to the server side source code, is sorted out the FSO
team will start to work together with them for tighter cooperation. Daniel and
Jan had some thinking with Onen about this during the FSOSHRUDCON.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap

2009-06-04 Thread Yorick Moko

My personal preference goes out to openBmap,
because I think they combine quality and quantity;
quality: they log the most data (they are even working on TA)
quantity: they have all the cells of cellhunter and opencellid

I could be mistaken but from what i heard from onen (the creator of
openBmap) on ML and irc, I got the impression that he DOES want to
work together,
just not only sharing data, but i could be wrong

y

On 6/4/09, Christian Gagneraud cgagner...@techworks.ie wrote:
 Hi all,

 I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some
 data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
 I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert
 data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
 I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data
 are still usable by OBM.

 Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of
 course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
 Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?

 Chris.

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-05-03 Thread ivvmm

Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Here are some updates about cellhunter. I am currently working at an
 online map so you can view already found cells around you. I am using
 tangogps to display the cells and it looks like:
 http://78.47.116.33/~hole/cellhunter/images/tangogps.png
 
 I created a tangogps repository which overlays the celldata over
 openstreetmap. So you know if somebody has been there and where you can
 get new cells.
 
 It is not finished yet but I will release it soon.
 
 Greetings, Sebastian
 
 ivvmm schrieb:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
 cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
 regions are already covered.

 So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
 get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
 will cellhunter remain just a game?


Thank you very much. This feature is a useful one that will help me as I
have already forgotten what places I had fetched and what not.

It looks like it is time for a feature request for TangoGPS to allow
overlaying of maps: not just points where GPS was linked with GSM, but
OSM over Google maps or so as number of repositories grow. My SD card is
running out of space because of maps. And now additional repository will
be added which partly duplicates OSM!



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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-05-03 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

Hi,

Here are some updates about cellhunter. I am currently working at an
online map so you can view already found cells around you. I am using
tangogps to display the cells and it looks like:
http://78.47.116.33/~hole/cellhunter/images/tangogps.png

I created a tangogps repository which overlays the celldata over
openstreetmap. So you know if somebody has been there and where you can
get new cells.

It is not finished yet but I will release it soon.

Greetings, Sebastian

ivvmm schrieb:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
 cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
 regions are already covered.

 So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
 get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
 will cellhunter remain just a game?

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-27 Thread Onen

Hi,

as stated before, FSO team has started some work on database on the 
phone. Maybe you should get in touch with them, in order to build 
something together.

Of course if you think openBmap could be of any help with your work, 
feel free to get in touch with me!

Onen

fredrik normann wrote:
 Understand that things are moving in the same direction :) but I still 
 think a local db of the data you have collected yourself is a good idea :)
 
 I am playing with some code my self now, trying to make something.
 
 -f-
 
 On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr 
 http://free.fr wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 regarding the settings based on location. ptitjes from SHR is working on
 an ologicd, which implements reasoning on the phone. He is interested in
 this cell location based service, as one of the inputs for his ologicd.
 
 Onen
 
 fredrik normann wrote:
   Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a
 while
   the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent
   settings do things according to that?
  
   -f-
  
   On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om
 http://onen.om@free.fr http://free.fr
   http://free.fr wrote:
  
   Hi,
  
   adding to my last comments...
  
   Onen wrote:

 Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of
   anonymous
 account, where people could upload if they don't want to
 create an
 account? Did I understand you correctly?

 Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me.
 But is
   it good
 enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license
 makes you
   have
 to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the
   data they
 provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
   compatible with
 this? I guess, if people would upload using a same
 account, this
   would
 be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?

  
   Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
   uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult
 to know what
   to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am
 not very sure
   we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should
 be deleted.
  
   Onen
  
  
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-27 Thread fredrik normann

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:

 Hi,
 as stated before, FSO team has started some work on database on the
 phone. Maybe you should get in touch with them, in order to build
 something together.


Are there some code somewhere that i can look at?

Of course if you think openBmap could be of any help with your work,
 feel free to get in touch with me!


I am learning from your code :) But I want to make a different
datastructure. The GsmCell should be like objects that collect information
about its self over time, but more or less use the datastructures from the
FSO functions... or something :)

I am mostly just playing with the code to get more into the FSO stack and
python again :)

-fredrin-




 Onen

 fredrik normann wrote:
  Understand that things are moving in the same direction :) but I still
  think a local db of the data you have collected yourself is a good idea
 :)
 
  I am playing with some code my self now, trying to make something.
 
  -f-
 
  On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr
  http://free.fr wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  regarding the settings based on location. ptitjes from SHR is working
 on
  an ologicd, which implements reasoning on the phone. He is interested
 in
  this cell location based service, as one of the inputs for his
 ologicd.
 
  Onen
 
  fredrik normann wrote:
Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a
  while
the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply
 diffrent
settings do things according to that?
   
-f-
   
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om
  http://onen.om@free.fr http://free.fr
http://free.fr wrote:
   
Hi,
   
adding to my last comments...
   
Onen wrote:
 
  Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind
 of
anonymous
  account, where people could upload if they don't want to
  create an
  account? Did I understand you correctly?
 
  Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me.
  But is
it good
  enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license
  makes you
have
  to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to
 the
data they
  provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
compatible with
  this? I guess, if people would upload using a same
  account, this
would
  be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
 
   
Another point against an open account: imagine somebody
 starts
uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult
  to know what
to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am
  not very sure
we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should
  be deleted.
   
Onen
   
   
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Local GSM db on the phone (Was:Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future)

2009-04-27 Thread Onen

fredrik normann wrote:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr
http://free.fr wrote:

Hi,
as stated before, FSO team has started some work on database on the
phone. Maybe you should get in touch with them, in order to build
something together.

Are there some code somewhere that i can look at?

The commits I was referring to:
http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=bcc9257634bc42d1bc3531633e62d29cb93aba37
http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=b6cf00aa9970368debac89edd9ed69cac032779d
http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=567f3454e19fac756a03ba58a7a3c5e909519780

I did a quick search to point it to you. I may miss some more commits,
though.

Of course if you think openBmap could be of any help with your work,
feel free to get in touch with me!

I am learning from your code :)

:-)

But I want to make a different
datastructure. The GsmCell should be like objects that collect
information about its self over time, but more or less use the
datastructures from the FSO functions... or something :)

The code is in a public git. You can follow work there. If you want to
discuss this and/or think this could be included in openBmap logger I
would be more than happy to talk about it! I plan to rework some of the
GSM part, this could be a good opportunity to include more...

I am mostly just playing with the code to get more into the FSO stack
and python again :)

Ok, to be honest, this is not exactly clear for me right now what you
have in mind. So if you want to explain maybe a little bit further,
and/or want precision about my code, feel free.

Onen

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Re: Local GSM db on the phone (Was:Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future)

2009-04-27 Thread fredrik normann

Thanks man!

I am a bit offline right now, dont have internet in my house and have to use
internet cafes :( But it makes time for reading code, lol

-fredrin-

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:

fredrik normann wrote:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr
http://free.fr wrote:

Hi,
as stated before, FSO team has started some work on database on the
phone. Maybe you should get in touch with them, in order to build
something together.

Are there some code somewhere that i can look at?

The commits I was referring to:

http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=bcc9257634bc42d1bc3531633e62d29cb93aba37

http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=b6cf00aa9970368debac89edd9ed69cac032779d

http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=commit;h=567f3454e19fac756a03ba58a7a3c5e909519780

I did a quick search to point it to you. I may miss some more commits,
though.

Of course if you think openBmap could be of any help with your work,
feel free to get in touch with me!

I am learning from your code :)

:-)

I am mostly just playing with the code to get more into the FSO stack
and python again :)

Ok, to be honest, this is not exactly clear for me right now what you
have in mind. So if you want to explain maybe a little bit further,
and/or want precision about my code, feel free.

Onen

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-26 Thread Onen

Hi,

do you mean a local db, and you do not upload to an online db at all?

Onen

fredrik normann wrote:
 Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while 
 the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent 
 settings do things according to that?
 
 -f-
 
 On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr 
 http://free.fr wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 adding to my last comments...
 
 Onen wrote:
  
   Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of
 anonymous
   account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an
   account? Did I understand you correctly?
  
   Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is
 it good
   enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you
 have
   to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the
 data they
   provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
 compatible with
   this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this
 would
   be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
  
 
 Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
 uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know what
 to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very sure
 we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be deleted.
 
 Onen
 
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-26 Thread Onen

Hi,

regarding the settings based on location. ptitjes from SHR is working on 
an ologicd, which implements reasoning on the phone. He is interested in 
this cell location based service, as one of the inputs for his ologicd.

Onen

fredrik normann wrote:
 Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while 
 the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent 
 settings do things according to that?
 
 -f-
 
 On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr 
 http://free.fr wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 adding to my last comments...
 
 Onen wrote:
  
   Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of
 anonymous
   account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an
   account? Did I understand you correctly?
  
   Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is
 it good
   enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you
 have
   to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the
 data they
   provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
 compatible with
   this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this
 would
   be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
  
 
 Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
 uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know what
 to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very sure
 we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be deleted.
 
 Onen
 
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-26 Thread Onen

Hi,

sorry but I am not sure to get your point.

At the moment, the clients (possibly stores the logs, for later upload) 
upload to their respective online dbs.

Jan, from the FSO team has built a proof of concept of a service on the 
phone (see FSO 5.5 beta announcement), which based on the db of raw data 
from the online site it downloads, builds a local db and propose a cell 
based location service directly on the phoone.

I don't know how (if) an update mechanism is implemented so far.

Is this what you have in mind?

Onen

fredrik normann wrote:
 And then you can have a sync scripts that syncs to what ever database 
 you like, cellhunter, openBmap
 
 -f-
 
 On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:00 PM, fredrik normann 
 fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com mailto:fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a
 while the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply
 diffrent settings do things according to that?
 
 -f-
 
 
 On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om
 http://onen.om@free.fr http://free.fr wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 adding to my last comments...
 
 Onen wrote:
  
   Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind
 of anonymous
   account, where people could upload if they don't want to
 create an
   account? Did I understand you correctly?
  
   Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But
 is it good
   enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes
 you have
   to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to
 the data they
   provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
 compatible with
   this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account,
 this would
   be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
  
 
 Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
 uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to
 know what
 to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not
 very sure
 we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be
 deleted.
 
 Onen
 
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-26 Thread fredrik normann

Understand that things are moving in the same direction :) but I still think
a local db of the data you have collected yourself is a good idea :)

I am playing with some code my self now, trying to make something.

-f-

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:

 Hi,

 regarding the settings based on location. ptitjes from SHR is working on
 an ologicd, which implements reasoning on the phone. He is interested in
 this cell location based service, as one of the inputs for his ologicd.

 Onen

 fredrik normann wrote:
  Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while
  the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent
  settings do things according to that?
 
  -f-
 
  On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen.om http://onen.om@free.fr
  http://free.fr wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  adding to my last comments...
 
  Onen wrote:
   
Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of
  anonymous
account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an
account? Did I understand you correctly?
   
Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is
  it good
enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you
  have
to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the
  data they
provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account
  compatible with
this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this
  would
be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
   
 
  Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
  uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know
 what
  to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very
 sure
  we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be
 deleted.
 
  Onen
 
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-24 Thread fredrik normann

Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while the
phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent settings do
things according to that?

-f-

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:

 Hi,

 adding to my last comments...

 Onen wrote:
 
  Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of anonymous
  account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an
  account? Did I understand you correctly?
 
  Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is it good
  enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you have
  to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the data they
  provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account compatible with
  this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this would
  be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
 

 Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
 uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know what
 to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very sure
 we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be deleted.

 Onen


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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-24 Thread fredrik normann

And then you can have a sync scripts that syncs to what ever database you
like, cellhunter, openBmap

-f-

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:00 PM, fredrik normann 
fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while the
 phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent settings do
 things according to that?

 -f-


 On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:

 Hi,

 adding to my last comments...

 Onen wrote:
 
  Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of anonymous
  account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an
  account? Did I understand you correctly?
 
  Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is it good
  enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you have
  to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the data they
  provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account compatible with
  this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this would
  be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
 

 Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts
 uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know what
 to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very sure
 we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be deleted.

 Onen


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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-24 Thread ivvmm

fredrik normann wrote:
 Wouln't it be smarter to have a local db on the phone, so after a while
 the phone will learn where it is all the time and can aply diffrent
 settings do things according to that?
 
 -f-
 

It seems a smart behaviour but still there is no activity in this
direction in the FSO stack.



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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-23 Thread Onen

Hi,

adding to my last comments...

Onen wrote:
 
 Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of anonymous 
 account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an 
 account? Did I understand you correctly?
 
 Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is it good 
 enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you have 
 to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the data they 
 provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account compatible with 
 this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this would 
 be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?
 

Another point against an open account: imagine somebody starts 
uploading garbage. Once we notice it. It could be difficult to know what 
to delete, if a lot of people are using this account. I am not very sure 
we could reliably rely on IP address to find out what should be deleted.

Onen


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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-20 Thread ivvmm

Al Johnson wrote:
 These are great news. But it is very sorry that now no one claimed that
 this functionality will be provided. To speak more frankly many people
 would be glad to hear from the developer of TangoGPS, Marcus Bauer, that
 he is going to implement this feature.
 
 Why should the apps have to support it? The location service need only supply 
 data according to the gypsy protocol to have most existing apps 'just work.' 
 Apps using gpsd will be taken care of by fso-gpsd. It really shouldn't matter 
 to the apps that the data came from something other than a gps unit, be it 
 cell tower, wifi, bluetooth or the magic location pixie. 
 

That's even better than I thought. So we should expect activity from the
FSO team. Were there any steps towards this(or will be there any in the
nearest future)?

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-20 Thread Stefan Schmidt

[Resend as the ml seems not to like my other email address, but do not inform me
about this either...]

Hello.

On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 15:58, Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 
 So here is the call to all the developers around to create a location
 service based on the opencellid data. for me that database should be the
 main db and everyone can provide his data to this db.

As long as I don't get an answer from Thomas about his willingness to add
informations about cell quality and other data then cell IDs, like wifi APs,
into the opencellid db FSO will not go into the opencellid direction at all.

Telling people all the time that it is the biggest db and don't answer requests
about quality and other data buys you nothing guys.

We will think more about this until and at FSOSHRUDCON, but we will not go with
opencellid just because they have the most data yet.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-20 Thread vale


why do we need so many databases doing the same?

cellhunter has far more cells than openbmap, so why not just bundle the
effort and only have one database for getting cells with openmoko?

greetings

vale

i think cellhunter has far more

Stefan Schmidt wrote:
 
 [Resend as the ml seems not to like my other email address, but do not
 inform me
 about this either...]
 
 Hello.
 
 On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 15:58, Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 
 So here is the call to all the developers around to create a location
 service based on the opencellid data. for me that database should be the
 main db and everyone can provide his data to this db.
 
 As long as I don't get an answer from Thomas about his willingness to add
 informations about cell quality and other data then cell IDs, like wifi
 APs,
 into the opencellid db FSO will not go into the opencellid direction at
 all.
 
 Telling people all the time that it is the biggest db and don't answer
 requests
 about quality and other data buys you nothing guys.
 
 We will think more about this until and at FSOSHRUDCON, but we will not go
 with
 opencellid just because they have the most data yet.
 
 regards
 Stefan Schmidt
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-20 Thread Stefan Schmidt

Hello.

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 05:05, vale wrote:
 
 why do we need so many databases doing the same?
 
 cellhunter has far more cells than openbmap, so why not just bundle the
 effort and only have one database for getting cells with openmoko?

Seems you did not read my mail. To get the background you should also have a
look at the archive to find the previous desicussions about this.

I ask for quality and willingness to expand the server side for better results.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-20 Thread vale

yes i read your email,

but i think size matters ;) i prefer to get a less acurate position but
get a position to beeing somewhere where we have no cells at all.

if we have a big database its not that difficult to implement a position
query by cell ...

with cellhunter i think we have the main roads and cities covered in
germany :)

best regards

vale

Stefan Schmidt (via Nabble) schrieb:
Hello.

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 05:05, vale wrote:

why do we need so many databases doing the same?

cellhunter has far more cells than openbmap, so why not just bundle the
effort and only have one database for getting cells with openmoko?

Seems you did not read my mail. To get the background you should also
have a
look at the archive to find the previous desicussions about this.

I ask for quality and willingness to expand the server side for better
results.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Onen

Hi,

ivvmm wrote:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?

I am working on a similar project openBmap[1]. A thread has been started 
by Stefan from FSO about the state of the collaboration between the 
projects [2][3]. I am for collaboration and even for merge at least of 
some code or so. To my understanding, so far, cellhunter sees 
collaboration as sharing the data (Sebastian, please correct me if I am 
wrong). In the thread you will see that Sebastian will have little time 
to work on cellhunter until middle May. I let you read his answers in 
the mailing list archives, to make your mind.

OpenBmap is welcoming collaboration. The source code git is 
available[4]. The work is currently going on there. Nick is taking care 
of the server side and website.

The difference between the projects is that we focus on quality of data. 
We don't want to get a database full of bad data. Again you will find 
our arguments in the thread pointed above[5]. I copy paste it here for ease:
quote
That is the
reason behind keeping more details about measures. This allows to gather
a lot of data, but with time, we can trash the low quality ones, because
we have got high quality ones since.

This brings three questions:
1. if you have big HPV-Dops, your position is not very precise. If you
add to this that you have a high speed, then when you take your measure,
the GPS position is very inaccurate. And the time you get notified that
the GSM connection has changed, this adds to inaccuracy.

My question is: do people think this argument makes sense?

2. Do OpenCellID or CellHunter think this could be possible to add these
extra fields to their database, and measures? This would allow to use
inaccurate data, until when we have better ones. Then we could filter
the low quality measures. I think we are still all learning a lot, and
this would imply that extra fields could be added in the future. So this
is probably not only a one shot change.

3. The database should also keep track of the software (id and version)
which has logged the data: this allows to ignore/remove data which has
been submitted by a buggy software, even if the bug is discovered much
later. That is also the idea behind keeping the GSM chip model +
Firmware version + GPS chip, etc...
end of quote

 In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
 cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
 regions are already covered.
 
 So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
 get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
 will cellhunter remain just a game?
 

Jan has started some work on this in the framework (see git logs). On my 
side, I have also started some work on this. Nick and I build sqlite 
files for every country by operator, and I have started a DBus service 
which would
query the file to give the current GSM based location. Because of lack 
of time, this goes slowly though. Any help would be very welcomed. [6]

Feel free to ask if you have questions.

OpenBmap package is located in SHR and FSO repositories (opkg install 
openbmap-logger), and on opkg.org website.

Onen

[1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenBmap
[2] 
http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/smartphones-standards/2009-April/000973.html
[3] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-April/005283.html
[4] http://myposition.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=myposition
[5] 
http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/smartphones-standards/2009-April/000975.html
[6] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-April/005290.html


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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Yorick Moko

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:
 Hi,

 ivvmm wrote:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?

 This brings three questions:
 1. if you have big HPV-Dops, your position is not very precise. If you
 add to this that you have a high speed, then when you take your measure,
 the GPS position is very inaccurate. And the time you get notified that
 the GSM connection has changed, this adds to inaccuracy.

 My question is: do people think this argument makes sense?

I do.
joerg also said that TA (time advance?) was a good measure IIRC

y

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Pander

Yorick Moko wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:
 Hi,

 ivvmm wrote:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 This brings three questions:
 1. if you have big HPV-Dops, your position is not very precise. If you
 add to this that you have a high speed, then when you take your measure,
 the GPS position is very inaccurate. And the time you get notified that
 the GSM connection has changed, this adds to inaccuracy.

 My question is: do people think this argument makes sense?
 
 I do.
 joerg also said that TA (time advance?) was a good measure IIRC

on basis of GPS data you could calculate a running average speed and
based on that determine whether to use the measured data or not.

 
 y
 
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Onen

Pander wrote:
 Yorick Moko wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Onen onen...@free.fr wrote:
 ivvmm wrote:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 This brings three questions:
 1. if you have big HPV-Dops, your position is not very precise. If you
 add to this that you have a high speed, then when you take your measure,
 the GPS position is very inaccurate. And the time you get notified that
 the GSM connection has changed, this adds to inaccuracy.

 My question is: do people think this argument makes sense?
 I do.
 joerg also said that TA (time advance?) was a good measure IIRC
 
 on basis of GPS data you could calculate a running average speed and
 based on that determine whether to use the measured data or not.
 

1. We have a pretty accurate value out of GPS. Why do computation to get 
a less accurate one? Plus you would have to compute it out of some GPS 
points. Where logging the GPS speed, you only have to read one value. 
Imagine analysing a database of millions of points...

2. If I stop at a red light with my car, and a measure is taken there. 
The GPS will tell speed = 0 (or very close to). If you compute an 
average, then this high quality measure (you were not moving!) would 
become a you were going slower.

Onen


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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Sebastian Hammerl

Hi,

ivvmm schrieb:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
 cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
 regions are already covered.

   
At the moment it is only me involved in the developing of cellhunter. At
the end of mai i will finish my master thesis and then i will have some
more time for cellhunter and developing will go on.
 So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
 get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
 will cellhunter remain just a game?

   
Cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org, the largest cell database
i know. with the api of opencellid someone can offer a program to get a
fix with cells or agps support. perhaps some location service will be
added to fso.

cellhunter is not just a game, the main goal is to get the database and
use the data. because it does not make sense to work only on the own
data it will join its database into opencellid.org. with this
cooperation there will be a good coverage worldwide and opencellid can
provide the data to the enduser. for a coverage of opencellid look at:
http://78.47.116.33/~hole/worldcells_opencellid.jpg

cellhunter itself offers an api to query the cells known by cellhunter.

So here is the call to all the developers around to create a location
service based on the opencellid data. for me that database should be the
main db and everyone can provide his data to this db.

greetings, sebastian
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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread ivvmm

Onen wrote:
 Hi,
 
 ivvmm wrote:
 I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
 
 I am working on a similar project openBmap[1]. A thread has been started 
 by Stefan from FSO about the state of the collaboration between the 
 projects [2][3]. I am for collaboration and even for merge at least of 
 some code or so. To my understanding, so far, cellhunter sees 
 collaboration as sharing the data (Sebastian, please correct me if I am 
 wrong). In the thread you will see that Sebastian will have little time 
 to work on cellhunter until middle May. I let you read his answers in 
 the mailing list archives, to make your mind.
 
 OpenBmap is welcoming collaboration. The source code git is 
 available[4]. The work is currently going on there. Nick is taking care 
 of the server side and website.
 
 The difference between the projects is that we focus on quality of data. 
 We don't want to get a database full of bad data. Again you will find 
 our arguments in the thread pointed above[5]. I copy paste it here for ease:
 quote
 That is the
 reason behind keeping more details about measures. This allows to gather
 a lot of data, but with time, we can trash the low quality ones, because
 we have got high quality ones since.
 
 This brings three questions:
 1. if you have big HPV-Dops, your position is not very precise. If you
 add to this that you have a high speed, then when you take your measure,
 the GPS position is very inaccurate. And the time you get notified that
 the GSM connection has changed, this adds to inaccuracy.
 
 My question is: do people think this argument makes sense?
 
 2. Do OpenCellID or CellHunter think this could be possible to add these
 extra fields to their database, and measures? This would allow to use
 inaccurate data, until when we have better ones. Then we could filter
 the low quality measures. I think we are still all learning a lot, and
 this would imply that extra fields could be added in the future. So this
 is probably not only a one shot change.
 
 3. The database should also keep track of the software (id and version)
 which has logged the data: this allows to ignore/remove data which has
 been submitted by a buggy software, even if the bug is discovered much
 later. That is also the idea behind keeping the GSM chip model +
 Firmware version + GPS chip, etc...
 end of quote
 
 In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
 cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
 regions are already covered.

 So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
 get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
 will cellhunter remain just a game?

 
 Jan has started some work on this in the framework (see git logs). On my 
 side, I have also started some work on this. Nick and I build sqlite 
 files for every country by operator, and I have started a DBus service 
 which would
 query the file to give the current GSM based location. Because of lack 
 of time, this goes slowly though. Any help would be very welcomed. [6]
 
 Feel free to ask if you have questions.
 
 OpenBmap package is located in SHR and FSO repositories (opkg install 
 openbmap-logger), and on opkg.org website.
 
 Onen
 
 [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenBmap
 [2] 
 http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/smartphones-standards/2009-April/000973.html
 [3] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-April/005283.html
 [4] http://myposition.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=myposition
 [5] 
 http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/smartphones-standards/2009-April/000975.html
 [6] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-April/005290.html
 


Okay, I see. The both applications: openBmap and Cellhunter have their
advantages and disadvantages.

I have several questions about openBmap. Cellhunter allows not to have
an account and still contribute to the DB(remain anonymous, or to be
more specific --- not to connect the data you send with one special
nickname, but to hide among many). That's the serious thing which
prevents me from using it. Additionally registration could be
implemented in the app itself for easiness.

The second question is: the cellhunter's developers stated that they
will merge their DB with opencellid.org, which is a rather big one. Are
you going to do same things? Or are you going to just collect the data
for one unique database which is just truly accurate?

Why can't the user control the rate in which application collects the
data? I am not that sure about this feature as I do not know the
internals of the application. But explanation is: if you move on foot
you do not need to log data every 30 seconds. If you move on a bicycle
you do not need to log data every 10 seconds. If you move on a car you
have to collect data every ten seconds or so. Hope you got the point.

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread ivvmm

Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
 Hi,
 
 At the moment it is only me involved in the developing of cellhunter. At
 the end of mai i will finish my master thesis and then i will have some
 more time for cellhunter and developing will go on.

Can't wait for the future versions, or to say more for more features and
less bugs!

 Cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org, the largest cell database
 i know. with the api of opencellid someone can offer a program to get a
 fix with cells or agps support. perhaps some location service will be
 added to fso.

These are great news. But it is very sorry that now no one claimed that
this functionality will be provided. To speak more frankly many people
would be glad to hear from the developer of TangoGPS, Marcus Bauer, that
he is going to implement this feature.

 
 cellhunter is not just a game, the main goal is to get the database and
 use the data. because it does not make sense to work only on the own
 data it will join its database into opencellid.org. with this
 cooperation there will be a good coverage worldwide and opencellid can
 provide the data to the enduser. for a coverage of opencellid look at:
 http://78.47.116.33/~hole/worldcells_opencellid.jpg
 
 cellhunter itself offers an api to query the cells known by cellhunter.
 
 So here is the call to all the developers around to create a location
 service based on the opencellid data. for me that database should be the
 main db and everyone can provide his data to this db.
 
 greetings, sebastian

Thank you very much for your response. Would like to say 'going to hear
from you at the end of may'. Cannot query features now as you already
stated that you will be busy until that.

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Al Johnson

On Sunday 19 April 2009, ivvmm wrote:
 Sebastian Hammerl wrote:
  Cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org, the largest cell database
  i know. with the api of opencellid someone can offer a program to get a
  fix with cells or agps support. perhaps some location service will be
  added to fso.

 These are great news. But it is very sorry that now no one claimed that
 this functionality will be provided. To speak more frankly many people
 would be glad to hear from the developer of TangoGPS, Marcus Bauer, that
 he is going to implement this feature.

Why should the apps have to support it? The location service need only supply 
data according to the gypsy protocol to have most existing apps 'just work.' 
Apps using gpsd will be taken care of by fso-gpsd. It really shouldn't matter 
to the apps that the data came from something other than a gps unit, be it 
cell tower, wifi, bluetooth or the magic location pixie. 

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Re: cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-19 Thread Onen


ivvmm wrote:
 
 Okay, I see. The both applications: openBmap and Cellhunter have their
 advantages and disadvantages.
 

Please, feel free to write to me (publicly or privately) with your 
comments and/or suggestions about openBmap. The ToDo list is growing at 
the moment with people suggestions, but they do not get forgotten.

 I have several questions about openBmap. Cellhunter allows not to have
 an account and still contribute to the DB(remain anonymous, or to be
 more specific --- not to connect the data you send with one special
 nickname, but to hide among many). That's the serious thing which
 prevents me from using it. Additionally registration could be
 implemented in the app itself for easiness.
 

Ok. If I understand you correctly, you would like some kind of anonymous 
account, where people could upload if they don't want to create an 
account? Did I understand you correctly?

Well I have nothing against it, it is a good idea to me. But is it good 
enough regarding legal aspect? Creative commons license makes you have 
to put the name of contributors (and possibly link them to the data they 
provided, not sure about this). Is an anonymous account compatible with 
this? I guess, if people would upload using a same account, this would 
be one contributor name, and would legally be ok, isn't it?

About registration in the app. Why not. I like the idea. Added to ToDo 
list :-)

 The second question is: the cellhunter's developers stated that they
 will merge their DB with opencellid.org, which is a rather big one. Are
 you going to do same things? Or are you going to just collect the data
 for one unique database which is just truly accurate?
 

The licenses are compatible between the three projects. So each of them 
could download and merge the data from the others.

To clarify things cellhunter will not merge his database with 
opencellid. Sebastian will push the updates of his own database to 
opencellid on a regular basis. That is how I understand it. It means, 
two similar databases will co-exist, doing similar things.

We have been proposing merges of databases and/or client, instead of 
regular push of data, in order to diminish the similar efforts in 
parallel. But so far without success. I still hope to see some 
progresses in this direction.

 Why can't the user control the rate in which application collects the
 data? I am not that sure about this feature as I do not know the
 internals of the application. But explanation is: if you move on foot
 you do not need to log data every 30 seconds. If you move on a bicycle
 you do not need to log data every 10 seconds. If you move on a car you
 have to collect data every ten seconds or so. Hope you got the point.
 

The openBmap logger allows you to do so. There is not graphical 
interface for this, you have to modify the config file by hand before 
starting the app. But I got your point. I am mixed between giving more 
freedom to the user to config the app, and the more complicated 
interface this would present to him. Some people prefer the app to just 
log, without changing all kind of parameters... But I add it to the ToDo 
list and will think about it.

Thanks for all your suggestions, please keep going!

Onen


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cellhunter --- the state of development and future

2009-04-18 Thread ivvmm

I wonder how quick is it developed and how much people are involved in?
In fact no one in my country is using it(looked at the map on
cellhunter's site). By also looking at the map we can see that many
regions are already covered.

So when the next steps will be taken? I mean integrating the ability to
get a fix from a network cell for GPS clients. TangoGPS for example? Or
will cellhunter remain just a game?

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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more

2009-03-20 Thread arne anka

 On every openmoko distro like fso or shr the user is root with home
 /home/root/

those are iirc all oe based -- debian is an om distro too, and it does not  
use /home/root/ but /root/. gentoo does so to iirc.

 /tmp is a bad idea because its only tmpfs and deleted
 everytime it boots up.

and that's worse than silent failing?

 but an other dir would be better, yes

sure, but which directory is available everwhere and can be presumed to be  
r/w to the every user?

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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more

arne anka schrieb:
 Cellhunter tries to read out your $HOME variable. when NOT set it goes
 to /home/root (line 536)
 

 that seems to be a very strange fallback
 - where is root's home below /home/? so far i've seen it in oe only
 - why is the user root assumed?

   
On every openmoko distro like fso or shr the user is root with home
/home/root/

normally $home should be set. I think other programs will have problems
too without this. /tmp is a bad idea because its only tmpfs and deleted
everytime it boots up. but an other dir would be better, yes

Sebastian
 a sane fallback would be /tmp, which usually exists everwhere and is r/w  
 for everyone.

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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more

Tony Berth schrieb:
 On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sebastian Hammerl
 list-openm...@omoco.de mailto:list-openm...@omoco.de wrote:

 try to start it from the commandline  with parameter -d

 cellhunter.py -d

 perhaps this will tell you more.

 Sebastian



 I did re-start the phone but still 'cellhunter' doesn't create a log file.

 Here is the outcome when running from command line:

 ---
 __init__
 __init__ / checking for homedir
 __init__ / found homedir = /home/root
 __init__ / init config
 __init__ / init wget file
 __init__ / init dbus
 __init__ / init gtk main window
 main
 offline_mode
 offline_mode / offline=True
 check_cellid_auto
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 4 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 4 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid_auto / auto=1
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 7 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D45 3 860
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 6 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 6 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D45 3 860
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 5 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 2 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 delete_event
 gui_destroy
 gui_destroy / sending AT+CREG=0\r\n
 gui_destroy / kill all old wgets
 -

what does

echo $HOME

tell you?

is /home/root/ accessable?

Sebastian
 Thanks

 Tony

 

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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more

arne anka schrieb:
 On every openmoko distro like fso or shr the user is root with home
 /home/root/
 

 those are iirc all oe based -- debian is an om distro too, and it does not  
 use /home/root/ but /root/. gentoo does so to iirc.

   
 /tmp is a bad idea because its only tmpfs and deleted
 everytime it boots up.
 

 and that's worse than silent failing?

   
no, shurely not
 but an other dir would be better, yes
 

 sure, but which directory is available everwhere and can be presumed to be  
 r/w to the every user?

   
that was my problem when hacking together that code :)
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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more

2009-03-20 Thread Tony Berth

2009/3/20 Sebastian Hammerl list-openm...@omoco.de

  Tony Berth schrieb:

 On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Sebastian Hammerl list-openm...@omoco.de
  wrote:

 try to start it from the commandline  with parameter -d

 cellhunter.py -d

 perhaps this will tell you more.

 Sebastian



 I did re-start the phone but still 'cellhunter' doesn't create a log file.

 Here is the outcome when running from command line:

 ---
 __init__
 __init__ / checking for homedir
 __init__ / found homedir = /home/root
 __init__ / init config
 __init__ / init wget file
 __init__ / init dbus
 __init__ / init gtk main window
 main
 offline_mode
 offline_mode / offline=True
 check_cellid_auto
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 4 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 4 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid_auto / auto=1
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 7 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D45 3 860
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 6 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 6 801
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D45 3 860
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 3 830
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 check_cellid
 check_cellid / 0181 E637 5 786
 check_cellid / +COPS: 0,2,26203
 check_cellid / Provider: 262 3
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DD9 4 990
 check_cellid / neighbours: 0181 3D4F 2 796
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD 5DE3 5 986
 check_cellid / neighbours: 02FD B563 5 801
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / neighbours:   2 0
 check_cellid / FIX/TIME: No Fix / 0 /
 check_cellid / POS:  /  /
 check_serverresponse
 check_cellid / scheduling next check in 1 ms
 delete_event
 gui_destroy
 gui_destroy / sending AT+CREG=0\r\n
 gui_destroy / kill all old wgets
 -

   what does

 echo $HOME

 tell you?

 is /home/root/ accessable?

 Sebastian

  Thanks

 Tony


yes indeed. 'echo $HOME' gives me 'home/root' and I can rwd anything there!

Thanks Tony
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Re: [Cellhunter] no offline log any more