Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. Funny, I expect to ask questions at IRC and search archives. and I expect messages to be archived indefinitely, as a mailing list does (I've seen many forums that don't, unless you mark sticky...) Besides, the usabilty of those forums is very clunky compared to a decent email client. And if you want a webpage for these things? Use gmail. Now, if you like the subforums feature of forums, perhaps the conclusion would be that we need more mailing lists. Atm, I doubt that. What would be bad is to start a forum with the same scope next to an existing mailing list, so we would have two places to search for the same thing. Bye, Kero. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. I'm not sure where you get users expect to search and ask questions in a forum from. And how does a forum provide 24/7 someone knowledgeable in such a way that a mailing list cannot. I'm confused. Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike forums. In this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing lists. You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the two discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped forward (thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information fast. However, as more users, especially ones with little to no experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be inundated with drivel. There is only ~1000 people on this list and look at simple problems with a glitch with gmail. I get 90+ messages about is gmail broken, gmail isn't working, I think it is gmail, etc. Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass market? I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and IRC/lists. The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and consumers can stay in the forums. adam Jeff Rush wrote: Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. I'm not sure where you get users expect to search and ask questions in a forum from. And how does a forum provide 24/7 someone knowledgeable in such a way that a mailing list cannot. I'm confused. Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike forums. In this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing lists. You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the two discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped forward (thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Hello Kero/Jeff et al, A NZ-grown opensource project that addresses the mailing list VS forum problem might help here - http://onlinegroups.net/ It functions a lot like Yahoo Groups and gives people the *option* of choosing their desired interface, i.e. mail client or web forum. Just my 2c. Kind regards, Tim On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 08:19 +0200, Kero van Gelder wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. Funny, I expect to ask questions at IRC and search archives. and I expect messages to be archived indefinitely, as a mailing list does (I've seen many forums that don't, unless you mark sticky...) Besides, the usabilty of those forums is very clunky compared to a decent email client. And if you want a webpage for these things? Use gmail. Now, if you like the subforums feature of forums, perhaps the conclusion would be that we need more mailing lists. Atm, I doubt that. What would be bad is to start a forum with the same scope next to an existing mailing list, so we would have two places to search for the same thing. Bye, Kero. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Ryan Lozier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there an openmoko forum? I am really sick of reading this mailing list for the last year to find subjects im interested in. If there is one, please someone point me to it, and im not talking about the wiki. I mean, where would someone go if they had a question about a particular function of the phone or one of the softwares? This mailinglist? If there is no forum yet, we need one. ryan. Gmane provides a web-interface to the lists. It is fairly easy to navigate, but I don't know if it remembers which messages you have read. http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community Niels ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On 7/20/07, Adam Krikstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information fast. However, as more users, especially ones with little to no experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be inundated with drivel. There is only ~1000 people on this list and look at simple problems with a glitch with gmail. I get 90+ messages about is gmail broken, gmail isn't working, I think it is gmail, etc. Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass market? I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and IRC/lists. The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and consumers can stay in the forums. I agree. I don't understand why people are so opposed to having a forum. It doesn't mean that if we had a forum we had to shut down the mailing list. And no one is suggesting that mailing lists are outdated. I think, at least for me, adding the strengths of another great tool to the growing list of already great tools is a good idea, especially once this starts hitting the market. I think there are some definate strengths that a mailing list has that a forum could never have. From my experiance I have found forums to be a great tool for the novice to advanced user. People who know what they are talking about can help the beginer users and people who have more dificult questions can turn to the mailing list. And if people on the dev team want to poke around in the forums the merrier but they don't have to. I for one think that forums could really enhance the community. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jeff Rush writes: Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike forums. In this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing lists. You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the two discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped forward (thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki. Since you've brought this up -- I'm one who definitely prefers the dynamic of the mailling list over forums. And with some people harvesting information as it goes by and putting it in the wiki, it really seems like the best of all worlds. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 09:06:02AM -0600, Mathew Davis wrote: On 7/20/07, Adam Krikstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information fast. However, as more users, especially ones with little to no experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be inundated with drivel. There is only ~1000 people on this list and look at simple problems with a glitch with gmail. I get 90+ messages about is gmail broken, gmail isn't working, I think it is gmail, etc. Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass market? I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and IRC/lists. The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and consumers can stay in the forums. I agree. I don't understand why people are so opposed to having a forum. It's because it's yet another place that you have to look. It doesn't mean that if we had a forum we had to shut down the mailing list. Then everyone has to look *both* at the forum and at the list, if they want to keep up, or research a particular issue. If things had started out as a forum, then adding a list would be bad, for exactly the same reason. And no one is suggesting that mailing lists are outdated. I think, at least for me, adding the strengths of another great tool to the growing list of already great tools is a good idea, especially once this starts hitting the market. I think there are some definate strengths that a mailing list has that a forum could never have. From my experiance I have found forums to be a great tool for the novice to advanced user. People who know what they are talking about can help the beginer users and people who have more dificult questions can turn to the mailing list. And if people on the dev team want to poke around in the forums the merrier but they don't have to. I for one think that forums could really enhance the community. At this point it's clearly a developer community, not a consumer community -- there are no consumers using a neo, and there won't be for 6 months to a year, at least. From my perspective, then, the time to start forums would be when there is a significant consumer community. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. -Steven Those were never specified as requirements at all. What they asked for was somewhere they could ask questions without spamming the list - irc is perfect for those little questions. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Mathew Davis wrote: Sorry for writing so much but I really feel strongly that a forum will only be a positive thing. The more information we can get out to general users and the more help we can offer them the better. I personally thing the forums and the mailing list will be two seperate tools. I don't think there will be that much overlap. By that I mean people who use the mailing list now will probably want to stick to the mailing list. But I also see a lot of things that really don't need to be on the mailing list. General topics about equipment to go with the neo, new way's they will use the neo, and just general questions about network providers and plans don't need to go here. Let them ask those question in the forums. I think the forums would be a good place for people to ask general questions get general answers and just enjoy discussing a wide range of things. I think the mailing list could benifit a great deal from a forum. Just my $0.02. I think Matthew's post was 100% correct. People need to get off their high horse and realize that just because the mailing list and wiki works for them, doesn't mean that is the best tool for everyone. A forum is a great tool, that allows people to follow threads based on what interests them instead of having to receive ALL of the messages. Not providing one would be a great disservice to a lot of the people that (possibly) will be purchasing the Mass Marketed phones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Andy Powell wrote: On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. -Steven Those were never specified as requirements at all. What they asked for was somewhere they could ask questions without spamming the list - irc is perfect for those little questions. IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without spamming the list. However, IRC is not an option for those less-technical. Basically, if they can't get the information they are looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will NOT find what they are looking for... IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On Friday 20 July 2007 17:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote: IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. At what point did I actually say *anything* against forums? Please, show me. A question was asked and I made a suggestion - just because you don't like it doesn't mean others weren't aware of it as an option or whatever. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. Wait, did you just insult everyone who uses irc / mailing lists. Good move. You just failed 'social interaction 101' Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
7. Most everything else can be designed by taking dumb and going 5 steps below that for a public launch. IRC and mailing lists will not cut it for the target market public launch. The only reason I care about the general public is that their acceptance is the only way more neo's will be made. The social jab was unnecessary and uncalled for. Jonathon Suggs wrote: Andy Powell wrote: On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. -Steven Those were never specified as requirements at all. What they asked for was somewhere they could ask questions without spamming the list - irc is perfect for those little questions. IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without spamming the list. However, IRC is not an option for those less-technical. Basically, if they can't get the information they are looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will NOT find what they are looking for... IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Mathew Davis wrote: And I don't understand why we can't have both. I really don't see the problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous. I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons: 1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have reached critical mass will dilute the synergy. We are just now starting to come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X). 2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. 3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here. In fact no one can stop it. Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle of open source, in that if you build it will they come. If so, you were right. If not, you were wrong. A very objective approach. And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite likely divergent) visions. Those who (1) produce results that (2) some significant portion of the community approve of will have their work integrated into the core as required/optional packages. And some fraction of those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution. And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at the power user and the gaming user and the multimedia user. Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various teams that form. And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of this device any better than we at this point. Not a planned economy but a chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the free/opensource tradition of running code and rough concensus. Scary sure, but also refreshing and very exciting. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. Have a look at what Harald wrote in his weblog on the 17th. FIC is a B2B not a B2C, I don't think they ever before sold directly to customers. So FIC can't provide them with any knowledge about B2C, this is just totally new for them ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Andy Powell wrote: On Friday 20 July 2007 17:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote: IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. At what point did I actually say *anything* against forums? Please, show me. A question was asked and I made a suggestion - just because you don't like it doesn't mean others weren't aware of it as an option or whatever. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. Wait, did you just insult everyone who uses irc / mailing lists. Good move. You just failed 'social interaction 101' Andy Ok, before this turns into an argument, I was not referring directly to you. Very sorry for not stating that explicitly. As far as insulting people, I do not mean to offend. However, you can't honestly think that the general consensus of the FOSS help groups is positive, do you? There is a time and a place for RTFM to be a legit response, but 9 times out of 10, it is someone asking a simple question that they don't know the answer to, and someone doesn't take the extra few seconds to give a link or reference instead of belittling them. So my point is to keep the mailing list technical, but offer forums for those who are less-technical and are inevitably going to ask stupid questions. -Jonathon P.S. I did not fail, social interaction 101. But you are certainly up for the jumps to conclusions award for 2007 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jonathon Suggs wrote: IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without spamming the list. However, IRC is not an option for those less-technical. Basically, if they can't get the information they are looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will NOT find what they are looking for... IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums. I honestly don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum. Other than people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already. So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums. I will again apologize for the social interaction comment. It did not come across as I meant it (especially after re-reading my own post). But the fact remains that we must be conscious of the less technical users. I personally do not feel that mailing lists and IRC are sufficient to provide a broader audience with the information that they will be looking for. If you think that the spamming of the lists, and improper netiquette is bad now, just wait till the userbase is more diluted (meant in a positive way) with non-technical people. Will simply having a forum solve the problem...obviously no. However, it will be a LOT more user friendly, and that in itself could be a deal breaker for some. Sorry if I offended, Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
I can respect that. I understand that the Openmoko team is streached pretty thin. And I wish I had some skills to volunteer to build a forum, but I can't I am more software driven and have no experiance with web development. Maybe someone else can do this. I don't think opening a forum will dilute much energy, but I can see where you are coming from. We are not really a big enough community to launch another communication avenue. I just hope that the openmoko can see how this will help support a good customer base without much intervention on their part, hopefully. What I would hate to see is that when the phone is launched in 6 months that we don't have anything waiting for those novice users and they get turned off by the idea and it get's a bad rep from the start. I want this project to suceed so badly. I think this is exactly what the communication world needs. I think it offers the strength of linux and the community, but bands it together around a common goal. I think that really emboldens linux and it's users to know that there is support for those who are a littly weiry about trying linux. Linux is a scary word to a lot of people, but if you say don't worry about it we have 1000+ people ready and willing to help with what ever you might have then I think they would be much more willing to accept. I think a forum would be a very easy and cost effective way to do this. I noticed the trouble they had with trying to open a store front end and I am worried that if they wait to long to get a forum up we could run into the same problem, and for a general consumer that could spell disaster. I am very impressed with the progress that the openmoko team don't get me wrong I just really think that a forums is necessary for the sucess of the neo 1973 and I am afraid that no resources will be devoted to this. So maybe what a solution could be is if someone can get a forum up. And let openmoko just route forums.openmoko.com to it. I noticed that openmokoforums.com has been snatched up and along with a few other domains. I would like to see a forum sponsered by FIC/OpenMoko team. Maybe I am jsut blowing smoke and irritating people, but I just really really want openmoko to be sucessful and for me I think that means forums. On 7/20/07, Jeff Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mathew Davis wrote: And I don't understand why we can't have both. I really don't see the problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous. I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons: 1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have reached critical mass will dilute the synergy. We are just now starting to come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X). 2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. 3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here. In fact no one can stop it. Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle of open source, in that if you build it will they come. If so, you were right. If not, you were wrong. A very objective approach. And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite likely divergent) visions. Those who (1) produce results that (2) some significant portion of the community approve of will have their work integrated into the core as required/optional packages. And some fraction of those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution. And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at the power user and the gaming user and the multimedia user. Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various teams that form. And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of this device any better than we at this point. Not a planned economy but a chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the free/opensource tradition of running code and rough concensus. Scary sure, but also refreshing and very exciting. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jeff Rush wrote: 1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have reached critical mass will dilute the synergy. We are just now starting to come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X). ~1000 users isn't necessarily that small. And I would be willing to bet that there are quite a decent number of people that actually are interested but just don't want to sign up with a mailing list. I'll be honest and say that this is the first mailing list that I have ever participated in despite being very much involved with the technical industry. I was very hesitant to sign up (fear of the unknown, maybe). Anyway, even now that I am getting involved with it, I still do not like this interface. I would much prefer a forum style, and would think that quite a few people (non-techies) would be of the same opinion. 2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. Agreed. But I don't think that is a very valid point. What percentage of the communication of this list comes from actual FIC employees, pretty low. So, just like it is now, the community would provide the bulk of the answers. 3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here. In fact no one can stop it. Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle of open source, in that if you build it will they come. If so, you were right. If not, you were wrong. A very objective approach. Again, you are correct. There are plenty of examples where the dominant discussions of products/services/whatever comes from a non-official source. So, if someone wants to put this together, then I think that would be a great thing to do. However, having all of the information be in a single location would provide a much better unified experience for the users. And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite likely divergent) visions. Those who (1) produce results that (2) some significant portion of the community approve of will have their work integrated into the core as required/optional packages. And some fraction of those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution. And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at the power user and the gaming user and the multimedia user. Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various teams that form. And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of this device any better than we at this point. Not a planned economy but a chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the free/opensource tradition of running code and rough concensus. Scary sure, but also refreshing and very exciting. -Jeff I think its healthy to discuss both pros and cons of the ideas, so feel free to rebuttal my comments. However, I am of the opinion that a forum would do a greater benefit than harm. Feel free to disagree, but that is just my take in this situation. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Jeff Rush wrote: Mathew Davis wrote: And I don't understand why we can't have both. I really don't see the problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous. I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons: 1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have reached critical mass will dilute the synergy. We are just now starting to come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X). I completely agree. A forum at this point is overkill but necessity should become apparent as more devices are sold. 2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources to research and establish a forum themselves. They were overloaded just getting a basic storefront up. I don't understand why a company the size of FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the hardware/software but that's the way it is today. With the rampant ADHD of users here, how much of that energy has gone into answering the same emails over and over. I'm sure they are personally reading and responding to all emails themselves and that was only with ~1-2k orders. I can only imagine the clusterfuck that would result if the current structure and implementation remained as orders ramp up to 10-20k for a mass release. I also question FIC's organizational structure but for an open source project they have still exceeded my expectations. 3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here. In fact no one can stop it. Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle of open source, in that if you build it will they come. If so, you were right. If not, you were wrong. A very objective approach. While I expect the openmoko project to fork as people seem to inherently love to bicker over what is included, free vs restricted, and default options, I didn't expect someone to suggest it so soon. Consumers should be able to go to the openmoko site and get all the documentation, source, products, and support from an official site. I feel that most people here only look at the problems and solutions from a developer's perspective. Sean has stated that there will be other neo's and maybe even carrier sales/support. These devices are aimed at the mass market and a coherent support network covering all bases should be available. You are asking people to switch from their comfort zone to a completely foreign manufacturer with an unknown mobile OS. There is no real way for people to demo a neo in person unlike a linux livecd for the desktop so this process will be riddled with apprehension and problems guaranteed. Instead of hand-holding new consumers, people are suggesting that the public can just deal with what is available. I believe that thinking is a disservice to the adoption of openmoko and embedded linux. Most of the new (windows)users will have to go through trial and error to get things to work for them. Having that new user explain to other incoming users how to replicate their experience is better than any written documentation with that process best shown in a recognizable forum format. I am realistic of what support is actually attainable but developers and openmoko employees don't need to be omnipresent. And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite likely divergent) visions. Those who (1) produce results that (2) some significant portion of the community approve of will have their work integrated into the core as required/optional packages. And some fraction of those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution. And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at the power user and the gaming user and the multimedia user. Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various teams that form. And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of this device any better than we at this point. Not a planned economy but a chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the free/opensource tradition of running code and rough concensus. Scary sure, but also refreshing and very exciting. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Is there an openmoko forum? I am really sick of reading this mailing list for the last year to find subjects im interested in. If there is one, please someone point me to it, and im not talking about the wiki. I mean, where would someone go if they had a question about a particular function of the phone or one of the softwares? This mailinglist? If there is no forum yet, we need one. ryan. On 7/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send community mailing list submissions to community@lists.openmoko.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of community digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Daniel Robinson) 2. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Peter Trapp) 3. Re: projects of interest? (Shakthi Kannan) 4. Operator Acceptance Testing (Shakthi Kannan) 5. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Ian Stirling) 6. Re: Possible App - Security (Christian St?ble) 7. Re: Possible App - Security (Henryk Pl?tz) 8. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Rodolphe Ortalo) -- Forwarded message -- From: Daniel Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:15:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Shipping, Billing, etc I had some concerns about this also. There has been very little info coming out from OpenMoko about the number of units of each type that have been ordered by developers and how many are available. Moreover, there hasn't been any information about where we are in the queue. All that has been said is that you get one email, then you get another email, then you get your dev unit. Do they expect me to keep hitting the refresh button like some blue-haired lady playing the nickel slots? On 7/19/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benjamin Flanagin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : The limited number of neo's have got me worried that I might not be in the first batch. Have anyone been charged for the device yet? I'm ready to learn the ways of Openmoko Ninjitsu. One person has confirmed on the list that their order has been processed. There's a few factors, first there's two colours. Secondly there's two kits, the phone only and the phone + dev board kits. Maybe the white and orange versions will be in more supply? --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Forwarded message -- From: Peter Trapp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:39:42 +0200 Subject: Re: Shipping, Billing, etc I'm not concerned about the number of units. It's more about the delivery date. On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ: Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed? Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks. I don't want to wait another 6 weeks (~ End of August) to buy GTA02 2 month later... Daniel Robinson wrote: I had some concerns about this also. There has been very little info coming out from OpenMoko about the number of units of each type that have been ordered by developers and how many are available. Moreover, there hasn't been any information about where we are in the queue. All that has been said is that you get one email, then you get another email, then you get your dev unit. Do they expect me to keep hitting the refresh button like some blue-haired lady playing the nickel slots? On 7/19/07, *Giles Jones* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benjamin Flanagin [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : The limited number of neo's have got me worried that I might not be in the first batch. Have anyone been charged for the device yet? I'm ready to learn the ways of Openmoko Ninjitsu. One person has confirmed on the list that their order has been processed. There's a few factors, first there's two colours. Secondly there's two kits, the phone only and the phone + dev board kits. Maybe the white and orange versions will be in more supply? --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community --
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Seconded! Please open a forum.openmoko.org ! I'd love to post some spontaneous ideas, discuss stuff, ask and answer small questions etc. but I often don't want to spam the whole mailing list with it. Ortwin On 7/19/07, Ryan Lozier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there an openmoko forum? I am really sick of reading this mailing list for the last year to find subjects im interested in. If there is one, please someone point me to it, and im not talking about the wiki. I mean, where would someone go if they had a question about a particular function of the phone or one of the softwares? This mailinglist? If there is no forum yet, we need one. ryan. On 7/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send community mailing list submissions to community@lists.openmoko.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of community digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Daniel Robinson) 2. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Peter Trapp) 3. Re: projects of interest? (Shakthi Kannan) 4. Operator Acceptance Testing (Shakthi Kannan) 5. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Ian Stirling) 6. Re: Possible App - Security (Christian St?ble) 7. Re: Possible App - Security (Henryk Pl?tz) 8. Re: Shipping, Billing, etc (Rodolphe Ortalo) -- Forwarded message -- From: Daniel Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:15:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Shipping, Billing, etc I had some concerns about this also. There has been very little info coming out from OpenMoko about the number of units of each type that have been ordered by developers and how many are available. Moreover, there hasn't been any information about where we are in the queue. All that has been said is that you get one email, then you get another email, then you get your dev unit. Do they expect me to keep hitting the refresh button like some blue-haired lady playing the nickel slots? On 7/19/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benjamin Flanagin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : The limited number of neo's have got me worried that I might not be in the first batch. Have anyone been charged for the device yet? I'm ready to learn the ways of Openmoko Ninjitsu. One person has confirmed on the list that their order has been processed. There's a few factors, first there's two colours. Secondly there's two kits, the phone only and the phone + dev board kits. Maybe the white and orange versions will be in more supply? --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Forwarded message -- From: Peter Trapp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:39:42 +0200 Subject: Re: Shipping, Billing, etc I'm not concerned about the number of units. It's more about the delivery date. On http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ: Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed? Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks. I don't want to wait another 6 weeks (~ End of August) to buy GTA02 2 month later... Daniel Robinson wrote: I had some concerns about this also. There has been very little info coming out from OpenMoko about the number of units of each type that have been ordered by developers and how many are available. Moreover, there hasn't been any information about where we are in the queue. All that has been said is that you get one email, then you get another email, then you get your dev unit. Do they expect me to keep hitting the refresh button like some blue-haired lady playing the nickel slots? On 7/19/07, *Giles Jones* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benjamin Flanagin [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : The limited number of neo's have got me worried that I might not be in the first batch. Have anyone been charged for the device yet? I'm ready to learn the ways of Openmoko Ninjitsu. One person has confirmed on the list that their order has been processed. There's a few factors, first there's two colours. Secondly there's two kits, the phone only and the phone + dev board kits. Maybe the white and orange versions will be in more supply? --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
I agree. I posted a while back about a forum, and it was clearly not the time yet for one. But as phones are now being shipped and people will have actual units I think The list could get really messy. I think a forum offers a lot of advantages over the mailing list for some things. It is good for editing, grouping, and for research. So if this helps I will use it and I am sure so will alot of other people. On 7/19/07, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seconded! Please open a forum.openmoko.org ! I'd love to post some spontaneous ideas, discuss stuff, ask and answer small questions etc. but I often don't want to spam the whole mailing list with it. Ortwin ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On Thursday 19 July 2007 22:03, Mathew Davis wrote: I agree. I posted a while back about a forum, and it was clearly not the time yet for one. But as phones are now being shipped and people will have actual units I think The list could get really messy. I think a forum offers a lot of advantages over the mailing list for some things. It is good for editing, grouping, and for research. So if this helps I will use it and I am sure so will alot of other people. Have you tried the irc channel #openmoko on irc.freenode.net ? Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists. But users expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC. I think it's about time for some forums. -Steven On 7/19/07, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried the irc channel #openmoko on irc.freenode.net ? Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
On 7/20/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is that searchable? Is it threaded? Will there be someone on 24/7 that is knowledgable and helpful? If you want to search for information you can try my Google custom search engine. It is available at http://aiurlano.netsons.org/OpenMoko/ It can search into the wiki, mailing lists and the other official sites in a single query. Bye, Alessandro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
Alessandro Iurlano writes: If you want to search for information you can try my Google custom search engine. It is available at http://aiurlano.netsons.org/OpenMoko/ It can search into the wiki, mailing lists and the other official sites in a single query. Nice! Hmmm, if it were only available in the search engine box ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
sloppy but working... :) for firefox 2... save it to ~/.mozilla/firefox/something.default/searchplugins/ and restart firefox... http://72.9.241.114/files/google4openmoko.xml Joe Pfeiffer pisze: Alessandro Iurlano writes: If you want to search for information you can try my Google custom search engine. It is available at http://aiurlano.netsons.org/OpenMoko/ It can search into the wiki, mailing lists and the other official sites in a single query. Nice! Hmmm, if it were only available in the search engine box ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
well, I need some sleep... :-) it should be: http://openmoko.nemezis.eu/files/google4openmoko.xml Piotr Duda pisze: sloppy but working... :) for firefox 2... save it to ~/.mozilla/firefox/something.default/searchplugins/ and restart firefox... http://72.9.241.114/files/google4openmoko.xml ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45
OK turned out /home/pfeiffer/.firefox/default/jornrz13.slt/searchplugins was the right place to put it. Works great! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
