Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) Ingo. Hi Ingo, The standard trick is to pass as soon as your opponent passes. For this to work, you need to take a one-point security margin with the komi. You should also score seki the Japanese way. That is how Crazy Stone played the UEC Cup and the matches at FIT2008. In fact, for the UEC cup, Crazy Stone did not understand seki, so I took a bigger security margin with the komi. But a bigger security margin is not good for 9x9. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
I think simplistic handling of Japanese rules should play dame points that connect chains. This avoids some problems that can arise where ownership probability drops after the opponent plays the dame, and a point of territory must get filled. Even if not technically required, I can imagine bots acting like beginners and get nervous over imagined vulnerabilites. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 10:44 -0500, Jason House wrote: I think simplistic handling of Japanese rules should play dame points that connect chains. This avoids some problems that can arise where ownership probability drops after the opponent plays the dame, and a point of territory must get filled. I'm trying to think of a counter example where my rule will not work. Of course this has to be understood within the context of the playing strength of the bot itself, so we don't expect extremely sophisticated handling of special cases. In my example, both black and white have clearly live stones and there is an empty point touching both of them. Assuming that the map is correct of course and both groups are alive, then I suppose a connecting move could cause a weaker group to live. So that suggests another rule - in addition to the original condition of at least 1 white and black live group touching, there should be no connections to a group that is not alive. A group that is alive passes some thresehold of certainty. Otherwise, it is not-alive but not dead. The threshold might be something like 90 - 95% or something but some experimentation would be required to find a good value for this. - Don Even if not technically required, I can imagine bots acting like beginners and get nervous over imagined vulnerabilites. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
IIRC under official Japanese rules at the end of the game all groups with liberties shared between opposing colours are by definition in seki. Therefore eventually (before counting) all dame have to be filled. Further, playing dame points is almost equally bad under Chinese rules as it is under Japanese rules. So, if you have a strong 'Chinese' engine no special tricks are needed at least until you reach the endgame. The only thing that is severely penalized under Japanese rules is playing needless defensive moves inside your own territory while the opponent is passing. Erik On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think simplistic handling of Japanese rules should play dame points that connect chains. This avoids some problems that can arise where ownership probability drops after the opponent plays the dame, and a point of territory must get filled. Even if not technically required, I can imagine bots acting like beginners and get nervous over imagined vulnerabilites. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
Although what Don writes is all correct, I understood the question to be rather different. It's not a matter of being able to determine the right score at the end or the right way to play, it's a matter of determining the right score after each playout. For performance reasons MC programs will cut corners there which could be taken advantage of when playing by Japanese rules because the after the playout it is prone to getting the wrong score in certain situations. Mark On 6-nov-08, at 12:12, Don Dailey wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:10 +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote: IIRC under official Japanese rules at the end of the game all groups with liberties shared between opposing colours are by definition in seki. Therefore eventually (before counting) all dame have to be filled. Further, playing dame points is almost equally bad under Chinese rules as it is under Japanese rules. So, if you have a strong 'Chinese' engine no special tricks are needed at least until you reach the endgame. The only thing that is severely penalized under Japanese rules is playing needless defensive moves inside your own territory while the opponent is passing. The dame rule I assumed was needed for an MC bot playing because of the way MC bots play badly when winning or losing. The idea was to focus on what fights were left on the board so that you don't lose due to a Japanese technicality. But it's now not clear to me that my rule would fix that. Maybe it should be left out.I'm also not sure how my rule would affect seki positions. - Don signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
On Nov 6, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 10:44 -0500, Jason House wrote: I think simplistic handling of Japanese rules should play dame points that connect chains. This avoids some problems that can arise where ownership probability drops after the opponent plays the dame, and a point of territory must get filled. I'm trying to think of a counter example where my rule will not work. Of course this has to be understood within the context of the playing strength of the bot itself, so we don't expect extremely sophisticated handling of special cases. Consider a miai to connect a chain with two liberties. It's easy to get the ownership correct in all heavy playouts. If one of the two miai points is dame, your rule would say not to play it. If the opponent plays there, the chain ends up in atari... In my example, both black and white have clearly live stones and there is an empty point touching both of them. Assuming that the map is correct of course and both groups are alive, then I suppose a connecting move could cause a weaker group to live. So that suggests another rule - in addition to the original condition of at least 1 white and black live group touching, there should be no connections to a group that is not alive. A group that is alive passes some thresehold of certainty. Otherwise, it is not-alive but not dead. The threshold might be something like 90 - 95% or something but some experimentation would be required to find a good value for this. - Don Even if not technically required, I can imagine bots acting like beginners and get nervous over imagined vulnerabilites. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
Many Faces of Go's Monte Carlo engine plays strongly using Japanese rules. It's required for sales in American and japan (as AI Igo). I don't use Remi's trick, since there are sometimes points remaining when your opponent passes when playing against weaker players. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rémi Coulom Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:02 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) Ingo. Hi Ingo, The standard trick is to pass as soon as your opponent passes. For this to work, you need to take a one-point security margin with the komi. You should also score seki the Japanese way. That is how Crazy Stone played the UEC Cup and the matches at FIT2008. In fact, for the UEC cup, Crazy Stone did not understand seki, so I took a bigger security margin with the komi. But a bigger security margin is not good for 9x9. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
What if the playout uses the AGA rule of paying 1 point for a pass and requiring white to pass last (so the game does not end by two passes if black plays the second pass). Wouldn't the score then be equivalent to the japanese score? Dave Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens Mark Boon Verzonden: do 6-11-2008 17:11 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules Although what Don writes is all correct, I understood the question to be rather different. It's not a matter of being able to determine the right score at the end or the right way to play, it's a matter of determining the right score after each playout. For performance reasons MC programs will cut corners there which could be taken advantage of when playing by Japanese rules because the after the playout it is prone to getting the wrong score in certain situations. Mark On 6-nov-08, at 12:12, Don Dailey wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
And of course black should pay 1 point for each extra handicap stone. http://www.britgo.org/rules/compare.html#coun Dave Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: do 6-11-2008 19:28 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules What if the playout uses the AGA rule of paying 1 point for a pass and requiring white to pass last (so the game does not end by two passes if black plays the second pass). Wouldn't the score then be equivalent to the japanese score? Dave Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens Mark Boon Verzonden: do 6-11-2008 17:11 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules Although what Don writes is all correct, I understood the question to be rather different. It's not a matter of being able to determine the right score at the end or the right way to play, it's a matter of determining the right score after each playout. For performance reasons MC programs will cut corners there which could be taken advantage of when playing by Japanese rules because the after the playout it is prone to getting the wrong score in certain situations. Mark On 6-nov-08, at 12:12, Don Dailey wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:19 +0100, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Hello all, two questions. (i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base for Japanese rules? (ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) I've thought about those questions myself from time to time. Let me think out loud concerning this. I am by know means an expert in Japanese scoring or even GO in general, so I'm just giving some thoughts here and a plan for building a Japanese simple bot that you can be free to criticize: It seems to me the primary difference between the two is knowing when to stop playing and of course scoring dead groups. The Chinese style bots do not technically need to know about scoring. You can look at the combined statistics at the end of the games for a given point to get a sense of whether that point is still in play or whether it's a forgone conclusion. You can do the same to determine dead groups. I don't know how well that works in all cases, but I have used it and it works pretty well. But we also want to recognize dame, and not play to dame points early in the game even if it doesn't affect the final Chinese outcome. So here is my idea: 1. If ALL the stones of a particular group belong to the opponent with high certainty, they are dead. 2. If there are open spaces that belong to you or the opponent with high certainty don't move to them. 3. If an uncertain point is touching stones of both colors and both colors have high certainty for the color they belong to, it is probably dame and you shouldn't move to them. example: White has a stone on d4 that is clearly alive. Black has a stone on f4 that is clearly alive. An empty point on e4 is highly uncertain. Do not play to e4 - it is probably dame. question: Is that a reasonably good rule or does it need some work? 4. If you have no moves other than these cases, you should pass. You can test this idea by playing a bot on KGS under Japanese rules. You may have to tweak what you consider your uncertainty margin. Also, I'm not considering seki here but we would want to find a way to cope with that. - Don Ingo. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:43 -0800, David Fotland wrote: Many Faces of Go's Monte Carlo engine plays strongly using Japanese rules. So what do you do in the playouts? Do you score with area or territory? Does your program play optimally where different rules would result in different winner? -Jeff ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
I'm sure he meant, Does your program play optimally in trivial situations where different rules would result in a different winner? I'm not sure if your last answer also applies to that, more specific question. David Fotland wrote: I score with area, and adjust for Japanese rules. It doesn't play optimally under and rule set :) David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Nowakowski Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:57 AM To: computer-go Subject: RE: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 09:43 -0800, David Fotland wrote: Many Faces of Go's Monte Carlo engine plays strongly using Japanese rules. So what do you do in the playouts? Do you score with area or territory? Does your program play optimally where different rules would result in different winner? -Jeff ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
(ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This is meant especially in the light of MC's tendency to win games by 0.5 points according to the rules implemented.) The difference I've noticed most in analyzing strong 9x9 games (in Japanese rules using a bot playing in Chinese rules) is a half-point ko at the end of the game. In Chinese rules, once all the dame have been filled in, if one side has no ko threats he has to pass, and the opponent fills the ko and gets an extra point. In Japanese rules passing does not cost anything. So the score ends up one point different. In these games what tends to happen is the Chinese-rule-monte-carlo bot, playing for its 0.5pt win, ends up choosing the wrong move 20 moves from the end of the game. If that is as clear as mud let me know and I'll try to hunt up an example game. Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
