Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
You keep asking why, when their oppressors let them raise their heads out of the water to take a breath of air, the Palestinians don't thank the Israelis and immediately start acting like grateful citizens. It might be useful to imagine how Americans would have reacted if we had lost the Korean War and subsequently been occupied by Korean troops for the last 50 years. With prime parts of our country occupied and our citizens squeezed into smaller and smaller areas. With control points manned by troops who arbitrarily disallowed passage to anyone they pleased. How many would be saying, The North Koreans only want to live in peace - If only the Americans would work with them instead of fighting...? The Israeli army forcibly evicted Israeli settlers from Gaza when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. The result was a violent Hamas takeover in Gaza, raids on Israeli border posts, the kidnapping of a soldier, and indiscriminate rocket fire from Hamas controlled Gaza into Israel. Given that history, where is the incentive for Israel to do anything but take a hard line? The people of Gaza would be a lot less needy if they concentrated on building a civil society. If every crate that brought in weapons through a tunnel brought in food and medicine how much better would the Gazans be today? If Hamas resolved to live in peace with Israel there would be no need for a closed border. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Please remember who declared war upon whom, and who has chosen to remain at war. Israel accepted the UN partition plan - the bulk of the palestinian arabs, backed by their arab neighbors, rejected the partition and declared war. They lost the first phase of the war (1948) and every subsequent phase of the war (1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 ...), though of course many define still alive, still fighting as winning, but only for the arab side. Now it can be argued that the partition plan was an injustice in the first place - many argued that immigration to palestine should not have been allowed - that the British should have used force to keep out Jewish refugees of WWII ( Curiously often the same folks argue that the US should not use force to keep out immigrants to the US ), and that the British should have created an arab state in Palestine where no distinct arab state had existed in 100's of years - certainly not since the days of the initial Israeli conquest of Canaan. Most recently the region had been governed by the Ottoman Empire, before that the Mameluke Sultanate and Fatimid Caliphate out of Egypt, intermingled with crusader periods. There were greater Arab states that ruled for a while after the conquest from the Eastern Roman Empire, based out of Mecca, Baghdad, and Damascus. What would have made creating exclusively an arabian statelet the right thing to do escapes me. I am not asking the Palestinians to say thank you. I am asking them to cease shoving their children under the water so they can stand on their shoulders and throw bombs at Israel while their children suffer beneath them. On Feb 11, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Ralph wrote: You keep asking why, when their oppressors let them raise their heads out of the water to take a breath of air, the Palestinians don't thank the Israelis and immediately start acting like grateful citizens. It might be useful to imagine how Americans would have reacted if we had lost the Korean War and subsequently been occupied by Korean troops for the last 50 years. With prime parts of our country occupied and our citizens squeezed into smaller and smaller areas. With control points manned by troops who arbitrarily disallowed passage to anyone they pleased. How many would be saying, The North Koreans only want to live in peace - If only the Americans would work with them instead of fighting...? The Israeli army forcibly evicted Israeli settlers from Gaza when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. The result was a violent Hamas takeover in Gaza, raids on Israeli border posts, the kidnapping of a soldier, and indiscriminate rocket fire from Hamas controlled Gaza into Israel. Given that history, where is the incentive for Israel to do anything but take a hard line? The people of Gaza would be a lot less needy if they concentrated on building a civil society. If every crate that brought in weapons through a tunnel brought in food and medicine how much better would the Gazans be today? If Hamas resolved to live in peace with Israel there would be no need for a closed border. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Art Clemons Peace is possible the day the Palestinian people want to live in peace. To date the majority has not so chosen. I do not support everything Israel does or has done, but until all their neighbors, including the Palestinians, accept its right to exist and live in peace, the war those neighbors declared continues to their detriment. As the best example of a functioning representative republic in the region we should aid them as we can. It's incredible you dare make this claim. Palestinians aren't occupying and controlling access to Israel, nor do they limit the ability of Israelis to travel. I suggest Israel no more desires peace than you claim the Palestinians do. It's especially apparent if you judge base on actions. (I'm behind on email, out of touch for a week with no email...) But they do get rockets, mortars and explosives into Gaza and the West Bank along with people who will kill themselves with the explosives (hmmm, that hasn't happened recently has it, at least I haven't seen it in the news). The focus of the Israeli's seems to be to stop the flow of weapons. They are talking about giving land up, there are some factions (the settlers) that don't buy it. -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly A clean, neat, desk is a sign of a sick mind * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Hamas was launching rockets as recently a week ago (I won't vouch for the reliability of this NewsDaily site, so please corroborate for yourself): http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre5100oy-us-palestinians-israel/ On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Wayne Dernoncourt way...@panix.com wrote: But they do get rockets, mortars and explosives into Gaza and the West Bank along with people who will kill themselves with the explosives (hmmm, that hasn't happened recently has it, at least I haven't seen it in the news). ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
John Emmerling Hamas was launching rockets as recently a week ago (I won't vouch for the reliability of this NewsDaily site, so please corroborate for yourself): I was talking about the suicide bombers. -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly Crime, Sex, Alcohol, Drugs... God, I love Congress. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Wayne Dernoncourt But they do get rockets, mortars and explosives into Gaza and the West Bank along with people who will kill themselves with the explosives (hmmm, that hasn't happened recently has it, at least I haven't seen it in the news). The focus of the Israeli's seems to be to stop the flow of weapons. They are talking about giving land up, there are some factions (the settlers) that don't buy it. Thinking about this a little more, it seems that the Israeli military/police are reluctant to evict the settlers from the homes that are in the disputed zones. Disputed in that Israel and the Palestinians have both said it's Palestinians and the settlers that say it's the settlers. It seems that one way to build trust would be to have a team of Israeli soldiers escort Palestinian police to evict the settlers. The role of the Israeli's is to make sure that Palestinians don't go overboard in evicting I'm sure that there is lots wrong with something so simple. -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly Take my advice, I not using it! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
The Israeli army forcibly evicted Israeli settlers from Gaza when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. The result was a violent Hamas takeover in Gaza, raids on Israeli border posts, the kidnapping of a soldier, and indiscriminate rocket fire from Hamas controlled Gaza into Israel. Given that history, where is the incentive for Israel to do anything but take a hard line? The people of Gaza would be a lot less needy if they concentrated on building a civil society. If every crate that brought in weapons through a tunnel brought in food and medicine how much better would the Gazans be today? If Hamas resolved to live in peace with Israel there would be no need for a closed border. Matthew On Feb 10, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Wayne Dernoncourt wrote: Wayne Dernoncourt But they do get rockets, mortars and explosives into Gaza and the West Bank along with people who will kill themselves with the explosives (hmmm, that hasn't happened recently has it, at least I haven't seen it in the news). The focus of the Israeli's seems to be to stop the flow of weapons. They are talking about giving land up, there are some factions (the settlers) that don't buy it. Thinking about this a little more, it seems that the Israeli military/police are reluctant to evict the settlers from the homes that are in the disputed zones. Disputed in that Israel and the Palestinians have both said it's Palestinians and the settlers that say it's the settlers. It seems that one way to build trust would be to have a team of Israeli soldiers escort Palestinian police to evict the settlers. The role of the Israeli's is to make sure that Palestinians don't go overboard in evicting I'm sure that there is lots wrong with something so simple. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
If you're talking about the recent unpleasantness in Gaza, then there are no disputed zones at issue. It is my impression that the rockets launched from Gaza (the stated provocation for the Israeli incursions into Gaza) have largely landed in neighboring parts of Israel e.g. Ashkelon. These areas are widely recognized as part of Israel and have been since the end of the original Arab/Israeli war (although if you want to get picky, they were part of the Arab partition according to the partition plan of the time, which Israel accepted and neighboring countries rejected). The Palestinian Police have absolutely no business being there. The people living in these areas cannot legitimately be described as settlers, any more than you, as a person of European or African descent (sorry, I have no way knowing) can be described as a settler because you live in North America (I assume). If you're not specifically talking about the recent violence in Gaza, please make this clear. Thanks! On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Wayne Dernoncourt way...@panix.comwrote: Thinking about this a little more, it seems that the Israeli military/police are reluctant to evict the settlers from the homes that are in the disputed zones. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Peace is possible the day the Palestinian people want to live in peace. To date the majority has not so chosen. I do not support everything Israel does or has done, but until all their neighbors, including the Palestinians, accept its right to exist and live in peace, the war those neighbors declared continues to their detriment. As the best example of a functioning representative republic in the region we should aid them as we can. It's incredible you dare make this claim. Palestinians aren't occupying and controlling access to Israel, nor do they limit the ability of Israelis to travel. I suggest Israel no more desires peace than you claim the Palestinians do. It's especially apparent if you judge base on actions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I am not an authority, but I do know some of what is going on. Part of the problem is that in the mind set of both parties neither one belongs there. Palestinians believe that the Israelis do not belong there, and the Israelis do not believe that the Palestinians belong there. Also note that both religious backgrounds of the combatants feel that they have a God given right to the land. Add to this the revenge mind set of both sides (you hurt me I need to hurt you more.) We come at this with a western mind set which teaches love your brother, care for your brother. The eastern mind set (middle eastern) does not have this love your brother concept. It is an us and them mind set. If you are not part of us, you are them and you are outsiders. You have to do a lot of studies into comparative religions and really study and know Islam and Judaism to see where these folks come from. By the way to keep this partially on topic. The Israelis have had top notch development of software applications over the years. This is a very complicated situation and has taken over 20 years to try and resolve. It will probably take at least another 20 before we get to a true stalemate peace. Stewart At 01:05 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: It's incredible you dare make this claim. Palestinians aren't occupying and controlling access to Israel, nor do they limit the ability of Israelis to travel. I suggest Israel no more desires peace than you claim the Palestinians do. It's especially apparent if you judge base on actions. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7875171.stm * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: One of my first posts likened tax cuts to spreading money around randomly, with no purpose. Not to worry Tom, I'm sure that Obama will soon appoint an economy czar, who will determine what the correct number of turnips, tractors and sturdy women's undergarments that should be produced next year. We can't have money wandering around the economy with no purpose, now can we? People might blow their paychecks on pedicures or baby strollers or power tools and god knows that won't be of any help. People just need to be shown that what they need or want to spend their money on isn't how their betters think it should be spent. There are faddish special interests, under-stimulated constituents back home and well-connected donors that need our pork-laden help! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
From today's New York Times Agency Says Hamas Took Aid Intended for Needy JERUSALEM — The United Nations http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org agency that provides assistance to Palestinian http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/palestinians/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier refugees said Wednesday that the Hamas http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/hamas/index.html?inline=nyt-org police in Gaza http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/gaza_strip/index.html?inline=nyt-geo had seized aid supplies intended for the needy, signaling increased tensions between the agency and the Hamas leaders of the Palestinian enclave. full story at: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1scp=1sq=hamas%20agencyst=cse Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: I am sorry to see you are in Gaza enabling Hamas. Money is fungible and I can not support Hamas. Matthew If people are in need people are in need. It does not matter the stripes of their politics. People are in need in Gaze. I do not agree with Hamas either but there are tons of folks there that are in need. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
In my small government experience, it was council members' fear that raising water and sewer rates angers the voters, their neighbors. So previous councils pretended the problems in the water and sewer systems didn't need to be funded. They did cheap, little fixes that made the problems a bit less visible. By the time I got on council we almost lost our two water towers due to lack of maintenance. Our waste water plant was near end of life, but no one had thought of funding a replacement; they thought we could get another grant. People yelled at me many times when they saw I was behind increasing rates. I asked each of them if we should keep rates low and then shut it all down when it falls apart in two to three years. They weren't pleased, but they saw that we were serious and that we could not get any state or federal grants. This is the result when we keep cutting taxes at higher levels and shift all responsibilities to municipal governments. This is also the result when big governments increase the mandatory requirements we must meet, but provide no funding to meet them. It is not pretty or easy when small towns suddenly start seeing the gigantic future bills! If the state legislature keeps cutting taxes, the local taxes and fees will have to increase dramatically. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of Tom Piwowar Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE HE Actually, guys the elephant in the room is.. pensions. The Feds, the States, and the locals have the largest unfunded pension liability. Don't even think that the PBGC can bail these out- and it's small potatoes compared to the private sector. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From: Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) mark.sny...@ngc.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:42 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves In my small government experience, it was council members' fear that raising water and sewer rates angers the voters, their neighbors. So previous councils pretended the problems in the water and sewer systems didn't need to be funded. They did cheap, little fixes that made the problems a bit less visible. By the time I got on council we almost lost our two water towers due to lack of maintenance. Our waste water plant was near end of life, but no one had thought of funding a replacement; they thought we could get another grant. People yelled at me many times when they saw I was behind increasing rates. I asked each of them if we should keep rates low and then shut it all down when it falls apart in two to three years. They weren't pleased, but they saw that we were serious and that we could not get any state or federal grants. This is the result when we keep cutting taxes at higher levels and shift all responsibilities to municipal governments. This is also the result when big governments increase the mandatory requirements we must meet, but provide no funding to meet them. It is not pretty or easy when small towns suddenly start seeing the gigantic future bills! If the state legislature keeps cutting taxes, the local taxes and fees will have to increase dramatically. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of Tom Piwowar Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Clearly in your first paragraph you identify part of the problem - not charging what it costs to provide the service now and going forward. You came on board and had the needed spine to push for what had to be done - I commend you. My question is why should municipal governments not bear all municipal responsibilities? One of our growing problems has been raising taxes at the higher levels and then passing them back down to lower levels. This is inefficient and it makes it harder for the lower level governments closer to the voters to raise needed funds, and fosters a taxes are someone else's problem attitude. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 6:40 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) wrote: In my small government experience, it was council members' fear that raising water and sewer rates angers the voters, their neighbors. So previous councils pretended the problems in the water and sewer systems didn't need to be funded. They did cheap, little fixes that made the problems a bit less visible. By the time I got on council we almost lost our two water towers due to lack of maintenance. Our waste water plant was near end of life, but no one had thought of funding a replacement; they thought we could get another grant. People yelled at me many times when they saw I was behind increasing rates. I asked each of them if we should keep rates low and then shut it all down when it falls apart in two to three years. They weren't pleased, but they saw that we were serious and that we could not get any state or federal grants. This is the result when we keep cutting taxes at higher levels and shift all responsibilities to municipal governments. This is also the result when big governments increase the mandatory requirements we must meet, but provide no funding to meet them. It is not pretty or easy when small towns suddenly start seeing the gigantic future bills! If the state legislature keeps cutting taxes, the local taxes and fees will have to increase dramatically. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of Tom Piwowar Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
For many small communities if it were not for state or federal governments they would never be able to provide these services. When I lived in WI, the local community had a water system. Worked great until they found pout their source of water was being contaminated by an underground source. An old abandoned Service station had underground tanks that had leaked over decades and contaminated the area with ethyl-lead. Either shut down the water system and subject everyone to possibly getting contaminated water, or find a source of funding to get remediation. (More than local municipality can afford) They got federal grants to get it fixed. (Area that was contaminated still condemned and this is 10 years ago) Your process, means that those without will always be without because they will never have the resources that larger municipalities have. Small towns will have to close and everyone can move into the big city. Government keeps advocation for larger farms which are more efficient, but at what cost? These large farms produce milk at a cheaper price, but the cost, is more concentrated waste, higher turn over of cattle, and poor quality of product. Sometimes the Government has to help subsidize the little guy to help level the playing field or what we end up with is not what we thought we wanted. Stewart At 08:18 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Clearly in your first paragraph you identify part of the problem - not charging what it costs to provide the service now and going forward. You came on board and had the needed spine to push for what had to be done - I commend you. My question is why should municipal governments not bear all municipal responsibilities? One of our growing problems has been raising taxes at the higher levels and then passing them back down to lower levels. This is inefficient and it makes it harder for the lower level governments closer to the voters to raise needed funds, and fosters a taxes are someone else's problem attitude. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
It seems to me that there was an actionable tort against the owners of the land where the service station was, and the owners of the station at the time of abandonment. Were they made to pay costs for remediating the pollution they caused? What did the municipality consider more important to fund than the remediation? Was the cost such that they could not float capital bonds? Did the locals consider personal remediation? ISTR that there are on site filters that can handle ethyl-lead - I have a filtration system for my well water. My process means that you will not be taxed for the exclusive benefit of me. My process means that people will choose to live largely where their circumstances and preferences allow, recognizing that all preferences might not be achievable due to circumstances. Small towns have been closing for over a century under the present system. From my reading of history, this is large the result of the production efficiencies of mechanized agriculture, lowering food prices and freeing the labor that used to produce food to other uses. Was this a bad thing? Should more people be sent back to small farms and food prices raised to preserve some idyllic vision of rural life? My family and I are localvores - we get our milk from a local dairy (delivered in glass bottles no less), much of our produce in season from a farm co-op, beef and pork from the local 4-H kids when we can. It is much more expensive, but we are lucky enough to be able to afford it. Not every one can. We still also buy all of the same on occasion from supermarkets. Modern agriculture and trade brings my daughter oranges, my wife avocados, my son blueberries, and me some peace of mind. Should we give that up in the name of small farms? I agree that government farm subsidies favor large farms - I don't think we should subsidize farms at all - they don't need it. What you call subsidizing the little guy economists call penalizing success. How is it justified to rob Peter to pay Paul? Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: For many small communities if it were not for state or federal governments they would never be able to provide these services. When I lived in WI, the local community had a water system. Worked great until they found pout their source of water was being contaminated by an underground source. An old abandoned Service station had underground tanks that had leaked over decades and contaminated the area with ethyl-lead. Either shut down the water system and subject everyone to possibly getting contaminated water, or find a source of funding to get remediation. (More than local municipality can afford) They got federal grants to get it fixed. (Area that was contaminated still condemned and this is 10 years ago) Your process, means that those without will always be without because they will never have the resources that larger municipalities have. Small towns will have to close and everyone can move into the big city. Government keeps advocation for larger farms which are more efficient, but at what cost? These large farms produce milk at a cheaper price, but the cost, is more concentrated waste, higher turn over of cattle, and poor quality of product. Sometimes the Government has to help subsidize the little guy to help level the playing field or what we end up with is not what we thought we wanted. Stewart At 08:18 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Clearly in your first paragraph you identify part of the problem - not charging what it costs to provide the service now and going forward. You came on board and had the needed spine to push for what had to be done - I commend you. My question is why should municipal governments not bear all municipal responsibilities? One of our growing problems has been raising taxes at the higher levels and then passing them back down to lower levels. This is inefficient and it makes it harder for the lower level governments closer to the voters to raise needed funds, and fosters a taxes are someone else's problem attitude. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And yet they do this because it is clear that their own publics would not support paying market prices directly. And it also helps keep third world farmers at starvation level because they can not compete with European (and American) subsidized agriculture. Good job. Oh, and then we send tons of food aid, further crashing what market price for food there was, and empowering the thugs who gain control of the food aid. Great system you got there Tom. On Feb 4, 2009, at 10:05 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Sometimes the Government has to help subsidize the little guy to help level the playing field or what we end up with is not what we thought we wanted. This is also why the average European Safeway puts an American gourmet shop to shame. They support their small farmers and the farmers give the public an abundance of good food. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Not particularly true. Statistics have shown there is enough food produced in the world to feed everyone. The problem is with distribution. Also very HUGE problem corrupt governments that would rather their populace die than allow them the needed food. Case in point, Ethiopia in the 80's. Everyone remembers the outcry for all the starving people in Ethiopia and the Band Aid and the albums produced to get food aid over there. What is not talked about is how much food went over there and how little of it got to those needing it. A good portion was stolen and confiscated by the leaders of the country and then resold for their benefit. Our church body has an Aid program that sends goods and aid overseas for disasters. (One of the higher rated agencies) One of the things we insist on is having someone on the ground where the aid is going to oversee what is transpiring. Helps make sure things get where they are supposed to better. Stewart At 09:23 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: And yet they do this because it is clear that their own publics would not support paying market prices directly. And it also helps keep third world farmers at starvation level because they can not compete with European (and American) subsidized agriculture. Good job. Oh, and then we send tons of food aid, further crashing what market price for food there was, and empowering the thugs who gain control of the food aid. Great system you got there Tom. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Try and track it down. I am not sure if you know the history of many small gas stations, but very frequently they were part owned by a local person and part by a national corp. In this case paperwork disappeared and no one was left holding the bag. Probably a National Oil company long since gone. (This started in the 20's-30's) Ask the folks in Alaska how easy it is to recoup costs related to an Oil Spill, Stewart At 09:20 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: It seems to me that there was an actionable tort against the owners of the land where the service station was, and the owners of the station at the time of abandonment. Were they made to pay costs for remediating the pollution they caused? What did the municipality consider more important to fund than the remediation? Was the cost such that they could not float capital bonds? Did the locals consider personal remediation? ISTR that there are on site filters that can handle ethyl-lead - I have a filtration system for my well water. My process means that you will not be taxed for the exclusive benefit of me. My process means that people will choose to live largely where their circumstances and preferences allow, recognizing that all preferences might not be achievable due to circumstances. Small towns have been closing for over a century under the present system. From my reading of history, this is large the result of the production efficiencies of mechanized agriculture, lowering food prices and freeing the labor that used to produce food to other uses. Was this a bad thing? Should more people be sent back to small farms and food prices raised to preserve some idyllic vision of rural life? My family and I are localvores - we get our milk from a local dairy (delivered in glass bottles no less), much of our produce in season from a farm co-op, beef and pork from the local 4-H kids when we can. It is much more expensive, but we are lucky enough to be able to afford it. Not every one can. We still also buy all of the same on occasion from supermarkets. Modern agriculture and trade brings my daughter oranges, my wife avocados, my son blueberries, and me some peace of mind. Should we give that up in the name of small farms? I agree that government farm subsidies favor large farms - I don't think we should subsidize farms at all - they don't need it. What you call subsidizing the little guy economists call penalizing success. How is it justified to rob Peter to pay Paul? Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: For many small communities if it were not for state or federal governments they would never be able to provide these services. When I lived in WI, the local community had a water system. Worked great until they found pout their source of water was being contaminated by an underground source. An old abandoned Service station had underground tanks that had leaked over decades and contaminated the area with ethyl-lead. Either shut down the water system and subject everyone to possibly getting contaminated water, or find a source of funding to get remediation. (More than local municipality can afford) They got federal grants to get it fixed. (Area that was contaminated still condemned and this is 10 years ago) Your process, means that those without will always be without because they will never have the resources that larger municipalities have. Small towns will have to close and everyone can move into the big city. Government keeps advocation for larger farms which are more efficient, but at what cost? These large farms produce milk at a cheaper price, but the cost, is more concentrated waste, higher turn over of cattle, and poor quality of product. Sometimes the Government has to help subsidize the little guy to help level the playing field or what we end up with is not what we thought we wanted. Stewart At 08:18 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Clearly in your first paragraph you identify part of the problem - not charging what it costs to provide the service now and going forward. You came on board and had the needed spine to push for what had to be done - I commend you. My question is why should municipal governments not bear all municipal responsibilities? One of our growing problems has been raising taxes at the higher levels and then passing them back down to lower levels. This is inefficient and it makes it harder for the lower level governments closer to the voters to raise needed funds, and fosters a taxes are someone else's problem attitude. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Feb 4, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Not particularly true. What is not true? Statistics have shown there is enough food produced in the world to feed everyone. Agreed The problem is with distribution. Also very HUGE problem corrupt governments that would rather their populace die than allow them the needed food. Agreed - with the caveat that part of the distribution problem is that in some areas the locals can not price compete with subsidized imported food, and so leave the farms and head for the cities. Case in point, Ethiopia in the 80's. Everyone remembers the outcry for all the starving people in Ethiopia and the Band Aid and the albums produced to get food aid over there. Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. What is not talked about is how much food went over there and how little of it got to those needing it. A good portion was stolen and confiscated by the leaders of the country and then resold for their benefit. It was widely discussed, just not by the rock stars to did a gig and moved on. Our church body has an Aid program that sends goods and aid overseas for disasters. (One of the higher rated agencies) One of the things we insist on is having someone on the ground where the aid is going to oversee what is transpiring. Helps make sure things get where they are supposed to better. Good for them. I used to give to some church groups. I stopped when it became clear that the child / family I was supposedly helping never saw a dime of the aid I gave. I trust yours is better run. Stewart At 09:23 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: And yet they do this because it is clear that their own publics would not support paying market prices directly. And it also helps keep third world farmers at starvation level because they can not compete with European (and American) subsidized agriculture. Good job. Oh, and then we send tons of food aid, further crashing what market price for food there was, and empowering the thugs who gain control of the food aid. Great system you got there Tom. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
At 10:18 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Agreed - with the caveat that part of the distribution problem is that in some areas the locals can not price compete with subsidized imported food, and so leave the farms and head for the cities. Yes and no. Very often the government discourages the indigenousness folks from producing by cutting off needed resources. Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. The sorriest part of this was the people had no trucks or the governments confiscated their transportation or limited it by Military and other means. (Sam is not one of my favorites he shouted way too much.) Good for them. I used to give to some church groups. I stopped when it became clear that the child / family I was supposedly helping never saw a dime of the aid I gave. I trust yours is better run. Check it out called Lutheran World Relief. It gets one of the higher marks for actually getting stuff done. No flashy ads, no flashy personas, just the work. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. I remember this--it was very funny advice, but not real practical. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
NOT True. And, we should do EXACTLY the same. Several cities along the Mississippi have finally relocated to higher ground. Scottsville in Virginia did so about ten years ago (after building a levee taller than the fences in Israel, to no avail). We all need to recognize the nature of flooding, desertification, and the like- whether you ascribe to climate change (the ostriches abound) or not. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of Chris Dunford Sent: 02/04/2009 12:07 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. I remember this--it was very funny advice, but not real practical. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
At 11:09 AM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Agreed - that one routine was funny though. I did not find many of his routines funny. I am sorry to see you are in Gaza enabling Hamas. Money is fungible and I can not support Hamas. Matthew If people are in need people are in need. It does not matter the stripes of their politics. People are in need in Gaze. I do not agree with Hamas either but there are tons of folks there that are in need. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Not at all practical, but the routine was funny. I found this link to three versions of the bit for those who don't know what we are talking about. Warning - he is quite profane. http://bobsfunnies.blogspot.com/2008/03/sam-kinison-ethiopia-sketch.html Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 12:06 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. I remember this--it was very funny advice, but not real practical. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
But by providing a support structure for Hamas, you help perpetuate the suffering. I know it is harsh, but sometimes you have to let people suffer until they change the behavior that creates the suffering. I would be all in favor aid programs to take people out of Gaza, or to take Hamas out of the picture, but simply supplementing the Hamas medical arm enables them to devote more effort to their execrable behavior. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: I am sorry to see you are in Gaza enabling Hamas. Money is fungible and I can not support Hamas. Matthew If people are in need people are in need. It does not matter the stripes of their politics. People are in need in Gaze. I do not agree with Hamas either but there are tons of folks there that are in need. Stewart * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
You are correct there. The flood plains of the Mississippi river basin were as fertile as they were in part because they were flood plains. Our insistence that we build along the shore and ward off floods, rather than learn to live with them, has done great damage to the ecosystem. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: NOT True. And, we should do EXACTLY the same. Several cities along the Mississippi have finally relocated to higher ground. Scottsville in Virginia did so about ten years ago (after building a levee taller than the fences in Israel, to no avail). We all need to recognize the nature of flooding, desertification, and the like- whether you ascribe to climate change (the ostriches abound) or not. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM ] On Behalf Of Chris Dunford Sent: 02/04/2009 12:07 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. I remember this--it was very funny advice, but not real practical. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On top of which some expect the government to pay for the loss of property so foolishly placed. Matthew Taylor wrote: You are correct there. The flood plains of the Mississippi river basin were as fertile as they were in part because they were flood plains. Our insistence that we build along the shore and ward off floods, rather than learn to live with them, has done great damage to the ecosystem. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: NOT True. And, we should do EXACTLY the same. Several cities along the Mississippi have finally relocated to higher ground. Scottsville in Virginia did so about ten years ago (after building a levee taller than the fences in Israel, to no avail). We all need to recognize the nature of flooding, desertification, and the like- whether you ascribe to climate change (the ostriches abound) or not. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of Chris Dunford Sent: 02/04/2009 12:07 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves Remember Sam Kinison? Get in the trucks - you live in a freaking desert - we are taking you to where the food is I laughed so hard I cried. I remember this--it was very funny advice, but not real practical. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
You have that backwards. Foolish government offers subsidized flood insurance program and property owner buys it (sometimes required to by the lender). I hope people who buy insurance are not foolish to expect to be paid for an insured loss. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- On top of which some expect the government to pay for the loss of property so foolishly placed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And yet they do this because it is clear that their own publics would not support paying market prices directly. And it also helps keep third world farmers at starvation level because they can not compete with European (and American) subsidized agriculture. Good job. Oh, and then we send tons of food aid, further crashing what market price for food there was, and empowering the thugs who gain control of the food aid. Great system you got there Tom. Medium-sized family-owned farms are the most efficient in the long-run. They get fewer subsidies [by %] than the large factory farms. Mid-sized farms not only have high yields, they also protect the land, with farmers living on the farms, unlike corporate farms. Corporate lobbies are putting smaller farms out of business. The US corporate farms throughout Latin America have lower costs but are significantly more destructive to the land and the people [ex.: pineapples in Costa Rica, fish farms in Chilean desert, cattle in Brazilian rainforest]. It's in the best interests of everyone except corporate agribusiness to protect mid-sized family farms because they are our future. The question is whether to go for the big profits now, or food in the future. It's no different when considering infrastructure--profits now or a sustainable future? Micro-loans in third world countries' entrepreneurs or dump excess US grain there? Social Security--spend the reserves now and forget the future? Broadband--don't invest now, keep rates high, penetration low [to save money] and fall further behind the rest of the world? The national/world economy is more complicated than today's profits when the future is at stake. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
But by providing a support structure for Hamas, you help perpetuate the suffering. I know it is harsh, but sometimes you have to let people suffer until they change the behavior that creates the suffering. I would be all in favor aid programs to take people out of Gaza, or to take Hamas out of the picture, but simply supplementing the Hamas medical arm enables them to devote more effort to their execrable behavior. The US government encouraged Palestinians to have elections. They did, with international observers. The Gazans elected Hamas because it was the only group that was providing services at the time. Any group that needs help can benefit from local groups, or international relief groups. Aid is important. Allowing those services into impoverished areas is important too. Please consider both sides before condemning one group. Neither group is 100% to blame, as shown in recent news reports from inside Gaza which local people recorded and sent with their cell phone cameras. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Hamas won the majority of seats in Parliament, but NOT the leadership. They OUTSTED the Fatah's Officers and Management in Gaza (via murder). They did NOT win the Presidency or the Ministry. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of b_s-wilk Sent: 02/04/2009 3:20 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves But by providing a support structure for Hamas, you help perpetuate the suffering. I know it is harsh, but sometimes you have to let people suffer until they change the behavior that creates the suffering. I would be all in favor aid programs to take people out of Gaza, or to take Hamas out of the picture, but simply supplementing the Hamas medical arm enables them to devote more effort to their execrable behavior. The US government encouraged Palestinians to have elections. They did, with international observers. The Gazans elected Hamas because it was the only group that was providing services at the time. Any group that needs help can benefit from local groups, or international relief groups. Aid is important. Allowing those services into impoverished areas is important too. Please consider both sides before condemning one group. Neither group is 100% to blame, as shown in recent news reports from inside Gaza which local people recorded and sent with their cell phone cameras. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
b_s-wilk wrote: Medium-sized family-owned farms are the most efficient in the long-run. They get fewer subsidies [by %] than the large factory farms. Mid-sized farms not only have high yields, they also protect the land, with farmers living on the farms, unlike corporate farms. Corporate lobbies are putting smaller farms out of business. The US corporate farms throughout Latin America have lower costs but are significantly more destructive to the land and the people [ex.: pineapples in Costa Rica, fish farms in Chilean desert, cattle in Brazilian rainforest]. It's in the best interests of everyone except corporate agribusiness to protect mid-sized family farms because they are our future. Correct! Giant agri-business, with the support of our government, has been mining our soil for many years now. Healthy soil is a living thing. Much of our top soil and organic matter is gone. The rich farmland of our midwest is a dieing shadow of its former self due to chemical use and corporate farming methods. Thanks to lobbyists from Monsanto and other chemical companies, the farm subsidies have been designed to put small farms out of business and promote GM seed and chemicals. NAIS ( National Animal Identification System) was designed to put the small farms raising animals out of business and encourage producing your meat and eggs in cruel and inhumane conditions. Due to corporate lobbying many of the regulations regarding our food are written without regard to health or sustainability of the land, animals or consumers, and with the intension of making life difficult for small local producers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Ralph wrote: But by providing a support structure for Hamas, you help perpetuate the suffering. As opposed to the good done with the billions of dollars supplied by U.S. taxpayers to kill Palestinians? Peace is possible the day the Palestinian people want to live in peace. To date the majority has not so chosen. I do not support everything Israel does or has done, but until all their neighbors, including the Palestinians, accept its right to exist and live in peace, the war those neighbors declared continues to their detriment. As the best example of a functioning representative republic in the region we should aid them as we can. I know it is harsh, but sometimes you have to let people suffer until they change the behavior that creates the suffering. You'd sing a different tune if they were your relatives being given a white phosphorus bath. I hope my relatives would choose to build at home rather than try to tear down the entire neighborhood, and thus avoid said bath. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I am on the town council in a historic Virginia town of about 700. We provide water and sewer services to in-town residents. In the 1970's, the town built its sewer using state and federal grants to defray almost all of the cost. Connection and availability fees were too low. When we realized we needed to replace it several years ago, all hell broke out because the state and federal grants had disappeared. We have an impressive business base in town, but, as the council member leading the utility, the debt spread over about 500 customers was daunting, about $5m (state of the art membrane technology). We were lucky to get the builder of the inn agree to pay for the new plant in exchange for allowing them to build a 168 room inn, as their availability fee. It is now under construction. Now, we are trying hard to make sure the availability fees will actually cover the cost of the infrastructure that new development consumes. But I must wonder how towns that are not as lucky as us will make do. Will they build cheap plants that are bound to fail? Or will the US start supporting its infrastructure again? We are replacing old water mains and spending more to repair old sewer lines. People still complain loudly that we should cut rates, but that would be ruinous. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- False distinction. By definition excessive taxation would not be good governance. Then we clearly do not have good governance today, and throwing more money at it won't create it. Case closed. That's right we don't have good governance today. Due to the excessive influence of the cons/noecons the public sector is starved. This morning NPR reported that 20 years ago the US spent 7 percent of GNP on infrastructure, now it is just 4 percent. That's why roads and bridges are crumbling and water main breaks are a daily occurance. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I lived in a small town in WI. (350) that also had a sewer system and water system. The state came in and forced them to raise their rates to prevent what you are talking about. They dictated what type of reserve they had to keep and the minimum they could charge to make sure they were getting rebuilding costs along the way. Not bad management on the States part I think. Stewart At 06:50 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: I am on the town council in a historic Virginia town of about 700. We provide water and sewer services to in-town residents. In the 1970's, the town built its sewer using state and federal grants to defray almost all of the cost. Connection and availability fees were too low. When we realized we needed to replace it several years ago, all hell broke out because the state and federal grants had disappeared. We have an impressive business base in town, but, as the council member leading the utility, the debt spread over about 500 customers was daunting, about $5m (state of the art membrane technology). We were lucky to get the builder of the inn agree to pay for the new plant in exchange for allowing them to build a 168 room inn, as their availability fee. It is now under construction. Now, we are trying hard to make sure the availability fees will actually cover the cost of the infrastructure that new development consumes. But I must wonder how towns that are not as lucky as us will make do. Will they build cheap plants that are bound to fail? Or will the US start supporting its infrastructure again? We are replacing old water mains and spending more to repair old sewer lines. People still complain loudly that we should cut rates, but that would be ruinous. Thank you, Mark Snyder Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And I agree with the sentiment expressed (though not the supernatural part). I just don't agree that we should use the force of government to compel others to provide what should be voluntary charity. There are things government does best (national defense, protection against predation) and things that faith communities and civic associations do best (basically charity work) and we should not task one with the other. I don't want church militias patrolling the streets, and I don't want government run hospitals. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 8:50 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: ...when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ...When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ...When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'...The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'...'whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'...'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' Or do the neocons prefer Cain who whined, Am I my brother’s keeper? [Yes, we Unitarians also study Biblical history. Stewart - your turn!] * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
It reads to me that the problem was as you identified it: Connection and availability fees were too low. If you charge what it actually costs then polities have a greater incentive to build only what they need, and users have an incentive to be much more frugal in their use. If you subsidize costs, you get predictable waste. Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) wrote: I am on the town council in a historic Virginia town of about 700. We provide water and sewer services to in-town residents. In the 1970's, the town built its sewer using state and federal grants to defray almost all of the cost. Connection and availability fees were too low. When we realized we needed to replace it several years ago, all hell broke out because the state and federal grants had disappeared. We have an impressive business base in town, but, as the council member leading the utility, the debt spread over about 500 customers was daunting, about $5m (state of the art membrane technology). We were lucky to get the builder of the inn agree to pay for the new plant in exchange for allowing them to build a 168 room inn, as their availability fee. It is now under construction. Now, we are trying hard to make sure the availability fees will actually cover the cost of the infrastructure that new development consumes. But I must wonder how towns that are not as lucky as us will make do. Will they build cheap plants that are bound to fail? Or will the US start supporting its infrastructure again? We are replacing old water mains and spending more to repair old sewer lines. People still complain loudly that we should cut rates, but that would be ruinous. Thank you, Mark Snyder * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
There should not be any church militias!!! (Separation of church and state or in theological language kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right.) However Canada's hospital systems belie your comments they are efficiently run and well run. Though they are owned by the government. One of the biggest problems we have here in the states is the profit motive in health care. It has done all sorts of nasty things to our insurance rates and actually lessened health care. Doctors offices and hospitals are only waiting three months before sending accounts out to collection, and that is after collecting the insurance fees. It has all come down to profit, and not care. Stewart At 08:42 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: And I agree with the sentiment expressed (though not the supernatural part). I just don't agree that we should use the force of government to compel others to provide what should be voluntary charity. There are things government does best (national defense, protection against predation) and things that faith communities and civic associations do best (basically charity work) and we should not task one with the other. I don't want church militias patrolling the streets, and I don't want government run hospitals. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I have heard they are well run for emergency services. I have also read that they are severely underfunded with resulting long waits for operations that are not absolutely emergent. I also seem to recall having read that at least one province is fighting hard to make it illegal for anyone to offer supplemental insurance that would allow for out of system health care - do you know anything about this? I do not think the profit motive is the problem. The problem is that we think that society has an absolute obligation to pay whatever it takes to extend life for the last few months / years. An amazingly large amount of our healthcare spending is going towards the last few months from what I have read (but no, I don't have the stats to hand). We also have an absurd government system for the poor that will pay emergency room costs or part of chronic care costs, but not preventative care which is always cheaper in the long run. The real philosophical problem with government paid health care is that if the government (that is civil society at large) pays for it, then the government should be expected to be able to mandate against any personal lifestyle choices that increase costs if they can not pass those costs on to those making the cost increasing choices. Then the question becomes do you have a license for that burger? I don't want to go there. What I would not mind seeing is government mandated insurance pools and the end of employer based health care coverage. Let folks buy their own coverage from regional pools (county level would probably be best) served by competing plans. The key is the plans have to accept everyone, and everyone has to participate, at least at the catastrophic care level of coverage. Yes, it is a diminution of liberty, but a modest one that is a trade off for the fact that society as a whole clearly will not throw the sick and injured to the wolves, so we are at some level going to pay anyway - might as well get some efficiencies then. Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: There should not be any church militias!!! (Separation of church and state or in theological language kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right.) However Canada's hospital systems belie your comments they are efficiently run and well run. Though they are owned by the government. One of the biggest problems we have here in the states is the profit motive in health care. It has done all sorts of nasty things to our insurance rates and actually lessened health care. Doctors offices and hospitals are only waiting three months before sending accounts out to collection, and that is after collecting the insurance fees. It has all come down to profit, and not care. Stewart At 08:42 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: And I agree with the sentiment expressed (though not the supernatural part). I just don't agree that we should use the force of government to compel others to provide what should be voluntary charity. There are things government does best (national defense, protection against predation) and things that faith communities and civic associations do best (basically charity work) and we should not task one with the other. I don't want church militias patrolling the streets, and I don't want government run hospitals. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
It is more complicated than that. Funding must be identified for future capacity as well as current or new users will be shut out. So we added a modest increase in the new capacity of the new plant. Also, when the state and federal government shut down those grant funds, they left municipal systems hanging out there, most of them not even aware of it. This is a recipe for public health disasters. If those municipal systems fail while the operators chase funding/financing sources, many people will be at risk of some serious diseases. Finally, what predictable waste did I report? Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- It reads to me that the problem was as you identified it: Connection and availability fees were too low. If you charge what it actually costs then polities have a greater incentive to build only what they need, and users have an incentive to be much more frugal in their use. If you subsidize costs, you get predictable waste. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I can tell you how it works as I have lived there and have experienced it first hand. One thing we know is that they are flat funded. In other words they only get so many bucks a year, and do not collect from the patient any money. Not all hospitals have MRI or CTScan machines or other high buck devices. You have to schedule those and if they are only schedule for 5 a day that is all they will perform. If a high need patient comes in they have first priority. They ration their health care, thereby limiting the amount they spend. Now before you think patients do not get the need or care they should have, every Hospital I went into in Canada was well run and staff was very pleasant and very much there for the patients. My first child was born with heat abnormalities and receive the very best of care in a Canadian hospital. His doctors were mostly Americans. His Resident was from Washington University. I never saw a doctors bill or hospital bill for his three stay in ten hospital and for his surgeries and care. In America nit would have bankrupted me. I was just starting out at my first placement. Making less than 14K a year. Some provinces have tried to prevent dual tier medical systems from happening by limiting and outlawing extra charges by Doctors and Insurance plans to pay such. You have to buy supplemental insurance if you want semi private or other things that the provincial health plan does not cover. (Prescription plan, needed crutches etc.) Provincial plan only covers ward stay (4-8 beds per ward) These hospitals also had Chronic care wings in which chronic folks (elderly, medically disabled) would stay and get needed medical care, but not extraordinary care. Their nursing homes were also a joy to visit and work in. Most were locally run or community run. Canada does run their medical system but has not gotten into lifestyle dictates. They have a higher percentage than we do of smoking, plus they drink more than we do. Plus it is an insurance plan, at least the medical part. The biggest draw back is that they do ration health care. No one is left out of the insurance pool, and everyone at least gets a minimum of care at no charge. Does that lead to some abuse, yes it does. I think again it is a fine balancing act. We have not tried balancing it yet. Stewart At 09:37 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: I have heard they are well run for emergency services. I have also read that they are severely underfunded with resulting long waits for operations that are not absolutely emergent. I also seem to recall having read that at least one province is fighting hard to make it illegal for anyone to offer supplemental insurance that would allow for out of system health care - do you know anything about this? I do not think the profit motive is the problem. The problem is that we think that society has an absolute obligation to pay whatever it takes to extend life for the last few months / years. An amazingly large amount of our healthcare spending is going towards the last few months from what I have read (but no, I don't have the stats to hand). We also have an absurd government system for the poor that will pay emergency room costs or part of chronic care costs, but not preventative care which is always cheaper in the long run. The real philosophical problem with government paid health care is that if the government (that is civil society at large) pays for it, then the government should be expected to be able to mandate against any personal lifestyle choices that increase costs if they can not pass those costs on to those making the cost increasing choices. Then the question becomes do you have a license for that burger? I don't want to go there. What I would not mind seeing is government mandated insurance pools and the end of employer based health care coverage. Let folks buy their own coverage from regional pools (county level would probably be best) served by competing plans. The key is the plans have to accept everyone, and everyone has to participate, at least at the catastrophic care level of coverage. Yes, it is a diminution of liberty, but a modest one that is a trade off for the fact that society as a whole clearly will not throw the sick and injured to the wolves, so we are at some level going to pay anyway - might as well get some efficiencies then. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
That is normally done in most areas. My mother has septic, but is surrounded by the city. They have no intent on running lines into my mothers subdivision but if they choose to sign on with the city they will charge them a large hook up fee, and then the customer will have to pay to run the line from the house to the street, WHEN THE LINE IS PUT IN. (No guarantee on when) Oh all this must be paid up front. Nice way for a city to cash in and then procrastinate. Our church is on septic although we are well within the city limits. We have been told that if we want to hook up, we must put in a grinder pump system of City Approved pumps and pay the city a yearly fee to service the pumps. Oh plus a hook up fee for commercial properties. Guess that is why we have kept our septic system. Stewart At 10:07 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: That is actually a simple problem to solve. You charge new customers the cost of extending service / capacity to them. If a developer wants to put in 50 houses a couple miles out from the current termination point of the service, you charge the developer the full cost of bringing in the services. They in turn will fold that into the resale cost of the houses. If folks won't buy at that price, smart developers won't build. The waste is folks using utilities inefficiently because there is no economic incentive to do otherwise. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
That is a vastly over-simplified account. I never recoup the cost of my water or sewer plants in your scenario. You also ignore the disruption when the state or federal government suddenly ignores these infrastructures. Life sounds very simple in your world. Probably too simple. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- That is actually a simple problem to solve. You charge new customers the cost of extending service / capacity to them. If a developer wants to put in 50 houses a couple miles out from the current termination point of the service, you charge the developer the full cost of bringing in the services. They in turn will fold that into the resale cost of the houses. If folks won't buy at that price, smart developers won't build. The waste is folks using utilities inefficiently because there is no economic incentive to do otherwise. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
How do you not recoup your costs if you charge appropriately for the cost of service? Part of the cost is a reserve for predictable maintenance and growth. Why is a town relying on state funds to provide service to the town? Why should the town not be providing all strictly local service? If the town / municipal district / county runs the water system then the residents of that jurisdiction should bear the costs. If you don't suck at a higher government teat, then there are no worries about the flow being cut off. I hear this quandary quite frequently in MD (and from VA as well). A developer wants to build a new mega housing development somewhere on the fringe. The existence of these new households will impose additional up front costs on the jurisdiction, usually in the form of roads, water, sewer, schools, power, emergency services, etc. There is much wailing about how can we afford this vs. we need growth. I have yet to see a government say - Go right a head mega-builder corp. Our estimates show a cost to us of $N per unit constructed. Payment is due before you break ground. Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) wrote: That is a vastly over-simplified account. I never recoup the cost of my water or sewer plants in your scenario. You also ignore the disruption when the state or federal government suddenly ignores these infrastructures. Life sounds very simple in your world. Probably too simple. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- That is actually a simple problem to solve. You charge new customers the cost of extending service / capacity to them. If a developer wants to put in 50 houses a couple miles out from the current termination point of the service, you charge the developer the full cost of bringing in the services. They in turn will fold that into the resale cost of the houses. If folks won't buy at that price, smart developers won't build. The waste is folks using utilities inefficiently because there is no economic incentive to do otherwise. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
For someone with so many criticisms of government, you know curiously little about actually running one! If I don't charge an amount proportional to the customer's use of the system, when it comes time to replace those parts of that system, where will the money come from? (Developers hate me for charging this, but eventually I will go bust if we don't.) We have water and sewer treatment plants, water towers, etc. I need to plan for end of life of all of these. Where do you think water and sewer systems came from? The Indians did not leave them behind! The federal government set requirements for the states in the previous century, who required municipal governments to have these facilities. The state and the federal governments provided much of the funding so we could meet their requirements. (We perform testing every day so we can report to the state, who would yank our license if we do not.) The higher government-teat is the group that tells us exactly what all of our requirements are. So, how do we play the big-shot you describe? You play tough-guy with mega-bucks developers with so little planning and see how fast they drag You into court (and they would clean you out with that kind of planning)! You need to learn a lot before any of your positions will make any sense or could be implemented in the real world. Your ideas are about as practical as telling your doctor how to diagnose, prescribe for and operate on you. You describe a fantasy world, not reality. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- How do you not recoup your costs if you charge appropriately for the cost of service? Part of the cost is a reserve for predictable maintenance and growth. Why is a town relying on state funds to provide service to the town? Why should the town not be providing all strictly local service? If the town / municipal district / county runs the water system then the residents of that jurisdiction should bear the costs. If you don't suck at a higher government teat, then there are no worries about the flow being cut off. I hear this quandary quite frequently in MD (and from VA as well). A developer wants to build a new mega housing development somewhere on the fringe. The existence of these new households will impose additional up front costs on the jurisdiction, usually in the form of roads, water, sewer, schools, power, emergency services, etc. There is much wailing about how can we afford this vs. we need growth. I have yet to see a government say - Go right a head mega-builder corp. Our estimates show a cost to us of $N per unit constructed. Payment is due before you break ground. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Feb 3, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) wrote: If I don't charge an amount proportional to the customer's use of the system, when it comes time to replace those parts of that system, where will the money come from? (Developers hate me for charging this, but eventually I will go bust if we don't.) We have water and sewer treatment plants, water towers, etc. I need to plan for end of life of all of these. Where did you get that I thought that? I am saying you have to charge for all the costs, and should have done so from the get go. Where do you think water and sewer systems came from? The Indians did not leave them behind! The federal government set requirements for the states in the previous century, who required municipal governments to have these facilities. The state and the federal governments provided much of the funding so we could meet their requirements. (We perform testing every day so we can report to the state, who would yank our license if we do not.) And your charges should include the cost of that testing and meeting those requirements. The higher government-teat is the group that tells us exactly what all of our requirements are. So, how do we play the big-shot you describe? By charging your customers the costs associated with meeting those requirements of course. You play tough-guy with mega-bucks developers with so little planning and see how fast they drag You into court (and they would clean you out with that kind of planning)! Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? You describe a fantasy world, not reality. I am describing how it ought to be done, not how it is presently being done. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Obviously Mathew, you are a neocon. Just like Barney Frank had nothing to do with the fall of fannie/freddie...even though you can read NYT stories about it...all a neocon plot. On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Matthew S. Taylor taylorsmatt...@gmail.comwrote: Tom, Did you ever notice that most of the big urban areas, with the big breaking water mains and such (and troubling schools, and pot hole filled roads) are not run by your pet bogeymen, the cons/neocons, but mostly by liberals / political machine Democrats? Could it be that pandering to unions and appeasing every interest group in site has not worked? Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I don't know where you live, but here on the West Coast that's just wrong. Many of those so called liberals do run some of the larger cities. But as the neocons enjoy saying, most of the land in this country is controlled by smaller cities and towns usually run by mostly neocons. Here is Washington state it's been a long call for the splitting of the state, mostly by the cons/neocons who feel their voice isn't being heard. The Seattle/Tacoma area does maintain the majority of the people of my state. And that majority does control most policy here. But city by city and town by town this is far from the truth. The problems many of us face here are a direct result of con/neocon local policy. It totally amazes me here that many of our local people will complain and moan about being ripped off by the more affluent in our area, and then turn around and vote them in after hearing a few of the neocon scare tactics. What a bunch of morons. They get what they deserve. Jeff M On Feb 3, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Matthew S. Taylor wrote: Tom, Did you ever notice that most of the big urban areas, with the big breaking water mains and such (and troubling schools, and pot hole filled roads) are not run by your pet bogeymen, the cons/neocons, but mostly by liberals / political machine Democrats? Could it be that pandering to unions and appeasing every interest group in site has not worked? Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * The friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you. - Elbert Hubbard * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Tom, Did you ever notice that most of the big urban areas, with the big breaking water mains and such (and troubling schools, and pot hole filled roads) are not run by your pet bogeymen, the cons/neocons, but mostly by liberals / political machine Democrats? Could it be that pandering to unions and appeasing every interest group in site has not worked? Matthew On Feb 3, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
It's too bad those bridges fell down under lefties/socialists who were running the city into the ground before they were led off to jail. On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? I think the cons/neocons describe this as passing debts on to future generations. Past generations built the infrastructure. Then the cons/neocons got control and screamed no taxes -- I want to be free (probably because they were hippies in their youth). Then the bridges started to fall down, the water mains broke, and the power grid failed. Now guess who has to pay the debt: it is us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Your suggestions are as practical to me as an instruction on driving elephants that I might write for you. Sure, I've seen elephants at the circus, zoo and on TV. Perhaps more than you've seen about actual government budgeting, legislation and operations? Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- On Feb 3, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Snyder, Mark (IT-EI) wrote: If I don't charge an amount proportional to the customer's use of the system, when it comes time to replace those parts of that system, where will the money come from? (Developers hate me for charging this, but eventually I will go bust if we don't.) We have water and sewer treatment plants, water towers, etc. I need to plan for end of life of all of these. Where did you get that I thought that? I am saying you have to charge for all the costs, and should have done so from the get go. Where do you think water and sewer systems came from? The Indians did not leave them behind! The federal government set requirements for the states in the previous century, who required municipal governments to have these facilities. The state and the federal governments provided much of the funding so we could meet their requirements. (We perform testing every day so we can report to the state, who would yank our license if we do not.) And your charges should include the cost of that testing and meeting those requirements. The higher government-teat is the group that tells us exactly what all of our requirements are. So, how do we play the big-shot you describe? By charging your customers the costs associated with meeting those requirements of course. You play tough-guy with mega-bucks developers with so little planning and see how fast they drag You into court (and they would clean you out with that kind of planning)! Not if the laws of the jurisdiction mandate such up front. I also never said there should not be adequate planning - I assume it is the duty of the government to plan for such eventualities. Are you telling me you are not? You describe a fantasy world, not reality. I am describing how it ought to be done, not how it is presently being done. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
You need to learn a lot before any of your positions will make any sense or could be implemented in the real world. Your ideas are about as practical as telling your doctor how to diagnose, prescribe for and operate on you. You describe a fantasy world, not reality. But they do tell doctors how to diagnose, prescribe and operate. Results * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Did you ever notice that most of the big urban areas, with the big breaking water mains and such (and troubling schools, and pot hole filled roads) are not run by your pet bogeymen, the cons/neocons, but mostly by liberals / political machine Democrats? Could it be that pandering to unions and appeasing every interest group in site has not worked? Hardly true, the union guys want the work. Who built Central Park? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I am curious - why Wow? 1. I favor a limited government of enumerated powers (gov't may only do what it is expressly permitted rather than everything not expressly forbidden). 2. I favor free market economics. 3. I favor a robust foreign policy restrained by constitutional restrictions on the executives ability to make war (something we have not seen since, oh, 1945 *sigh*). 4. I favor a personally liberal society (as in I support the liberty of the individual vs. the group). 5. I am not in any way religious - I simply don't understand the urge to find faith in any religious dogma of revealed truth. Clearly, in the current American political climate, I am not going to see a major party candidate who I align perfectly with, so I have to decide which things I can give on in any given election. In this election I saw in Obama as meeting none of my positions (with the possible exception of 5, but that just means he was a fraud wrt religion). I saw McCain as possibly in line with 4, but that was it. Palin appeared to at least hit 1 and 2 in large part as well as 4. Not bad given what I am usually given as choices, but as she was only the VP choice, not enough to make me hold my nose and vote for McCain. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Jordan wrote: Matthew S. Taylor wrote: McCain was never in the least bit tempting for me (due to his attitudes toward mere free speech and such) until he picked Palin. Then I seriously thought about voting for her for her small government views in spite of her cultural conservatism. All I can say is WOW!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
'Re-read my earlier post. ;^) And no, while he was much, much, closer, he does not hit on all of them. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 11:24 AM, John Emmerling wrote: Then why didn't you vote for Bob Barr? He supported all your views. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Matthew S. Taylor taylorsmatt...@gmail.com wrote: I am curious - why Wow? 1. I favor a limited government of enumerated powers (gov't may only do what it is expressly permitted rather than everything not expressly forbidden). 2. I favor free market economics. 3. I favor a robust foreign policy restrained by constitutional restrictions on the executives ability to make war (something we have not seen since, oh, 1945 *sigh*). 4. I favor a personally liberal society (as in I support the liberty of the individual vs. the group). 5. I am not in any way religious - I simply don't understand the urge to find faith in any religious dogma of revealed truth. Clearly, in the current American political climate, I am not going to see a major party candidate who I align perfectly with, so I have to decide which things I can give on in any given election. In this election I saw in Obama as meeting none of my positions (with the possible exception of 5, but that just means he was a fraud wrt religion). I saw McCain as possibly in line with 4, but that was it. Palin appeared to at least hit 1 and 2 in large part as well as 4. Not bad given what I am usually given as choices, but as she was only the VP choice, not enough to make me hold my nose and vote for McCain. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Palin is great for the media because she's such a wacko. It seems to me that if you aren't aware of that, then you just aren't paying attention. Specifically, you mentioned small government. If you go here: http://tinyurl.com/cyn3o5 and look for an article starting with Palin As Reformer, you can get some background on her. Both as mayor of Wasilla and as governor, Palin has aggressively sought federal earmarks, and has a friendlier relationship with indicted GOP senator Ted Stevens than one would expect for a good-government crusader. She has fired employees who she sees as disloyal. And, in a move reminiscent of the Bush-Cheney White House, she has stonewalled legitimate efforts by the legislature to uncover the truth in the Trooper-Gate affair. The article goes on to list some more of her reformist credentials. Each item on the list includes links to articles to back it up. Have fun! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
As far as Palin's religion goes, check out this article: http://tinyurl.com/6rwm5y It's called Palin's Movement Urges 'Godly' To 'Plunder' Wealth of The 'Godless' * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And now you reference the Huff Po? Do you read anything that is not an organ of the left? Tell me, were they as critical of Obama's 20 year relationship with Rev. Wright? Why do I think not? Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Jordan wrote: As far as Palin's religion goes, check out this article: http://tinyurl.com/6rwm5y It's called Palin's Movement Urges 'Godly' To 'Plunder' Wealth of The 'Godless' * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Talking Point Memo as a good source of impartial information on Palin? Please ... Oh, and yes, I read it all before during the campaign. If it was not so sad, it would have been funny to see the left and the main stream media (not that there is much difference between the two, its just that the first one admits their bias) go after Palin and her actual executive record with actual malice in a way that they never attempted wrt to the annointed one. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Jordan wrote: Palin is great for the media because she's such a wacko. It seems to me that if you aren't aware of that, then you just aren't paying attention. Specifically, you mentioned small government. If you go here: http://tinyurl.com/cyn3o5 and look for an article starting with Palin As Reformer, you can get some background on her. Both as mayor of Wasilla and as governor, Palin has aggressively sought federal earmarks, and has a friendlier relationship with indicted GOP senator Ted Stevens than one would expect for a good- government crusader. She has fired employees who she sees as disloyal. And, in a move reminiscent of the Bush-Cheney White House, she has stonewalled legitimate efforts by the legislature to uncover the truth in the Trooper-Gate affair. The article goes on to list some more of her reformist credentials. Each item on the list includes links to articles to back it up. Have fun! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And speaking of the New Deal there is this interesting article in the WSJ (yes, capitalist conservative): http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123353276749137485.html The downturn of 1937-38 was preceded by large wage hikes that pushed wages well above their NIRA levels, following the Supreme Court's 1937 decision that upheld the constitutionality of the National Labor Relations Act. These wage hikes led to further job loss, particularly in manufacturing. The recession in a depression thus was not the result of a reversal of New Deal policies, as argued by some, but rather a deepening of New Deal polices that raised wages even further above their competitive levels, and which further prevented the normal forces of supply and demand from restoring full employment. Our research indicates that New Deal labor and industrial policies prolonged the Depression by seven years. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Matthew S. Taylor wrote: And now you reference the Huff Po? Do you read anything that is not an organ of the left? Everything I gave a link to had links to generally well researched articles sighting points of fact. Research things down to the facts. The fact speak for themselves. Sounds like you only trust the talking points from Rush and Fuax News. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
McCain was a tempting candidate for a short time. Then he opened his mouth. Then he picked a running mate for VP. That pretty much sealed the deal. Before I get slammed, Ha. No slamming here--you are one right-thinking dude. Check my little blog: http://justweirdstuff.blogspot.com/. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Then why didn't you vote for Bob Barr? He supported all your views. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Matthew S. Taylor taylorsmatt...@gmail.com wrote: I am curious - why Wow? 1. I favor a limited government of enumerated powers (gov't may only do what it is expressly permitted rather than everything not expressly forbidden). 2. I favor free market economics. 3. I favor a robust foreign policy restrained by constitutional restrictions on the executives ability to make war (something we have not seen since, oh, 1945 *sigh*). 4. I favor a personally liberal society (as in I support the liberty of the individual vs. the group). 5. I am not in any way religious - I simply don't understand the urge to find faith in any religious dogma of revealed truth. Clearly, in the current American political climate, I am not going to see a major party candidate who I align perfectly with, so I have to decide which things I can give on in any given election. In this election I saw in Obama as meeting none of my positions (with the possible exception of 5, but that just means he was a fraud wrt religion). I saw McCain as possibly in line with 4, but that was it. Palin appeared to at least hit 1 and 2 in large part as well as 4. Not bad given what I am usually given as choices, but as she was only the VP choice, not enough to make me hold my nose and vote for McCain. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Matthew S. Taylor wrote: McCain was never in the least bit tempting for me (due to his attitudes toward mere free speech and such) until he picked Palin. Then I seriously thought about voting for her for her small government views in spite of her cultural conservatism. All I can say is WOW!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
McCain was never in the least bit tempting for me (due to his attitudes toward mere free speech and such) until he picked Palin. Then I seriously thought about voting for her for her small government views in spite of her cultural conservatism. In the end I went third party (which in MD is easy - the state will go in the D column pretty much guaranteed. On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: McCain was a tempting candidate for a short time. Then he opened his mouth. Then he picked a running mate for VP. That pretty much sealed the deal. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Why? Were you under the impression I was a diest? Choosing Gold over God is a good indicator of avarice. False distinction. By definition excessive taxation would not be good governance. Then we clearly do not have good governance today, and throwing more money at it won't create it. Case closed. That's right we don't have good governance today. Due to the excessive influence of the cons/noecons the public sector is starved. This morning NPR reported that 20 years ago the US spent 7 percent of GNP on infrastructure, now it is just 4 percent. That's why roads and bridges are crumbling and water main breaks are a daily occurance. Voluntary associations. You must have heard of them? You know, voluntary fire companies, service organizations, the Boy Scouts, etc., etc.. All run better and leaner than government. That is simply bullshit. A fantasy you perpetuate to justy cupidity. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... Once again name calling substituted for rational thought. So what is the alternative to each according to their needs? You let you neighbors starve to death or die from minor, untreated diseases. Last month a local 12-year-old boy dies of a toothache. Untreated the infection spread to his brain. It was a long agonizing death. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... I think you have amply demonstrated that you should not be the decider. I definitely would be better at it than you, but I will leave it to our elected officials. I really don't want to be dictator. My standard is there must be a compelling need before I use government to take from my neighbor. Good. Meeting compelling needs is exactly what I'm focusing on. I'm glad we are finally in agreement. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
What really gets me is people always seem to think government is this nefarious bunch out to ruin our lives. In the US the government is us. Self loathing isn't new. In fact I think a small amount of it is healthy. It keeps a person focused. The cons/neocons self-loathing gets me too. For the most part high-level civil-service managers are very bright, well educated, and very dedicated. I have known many. The evil ones are the political appointees put in place by con/neocon adminstrations. Those people are truly loathsome. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Really Tom, what is this analogy of sharing toys about? When you share toys, it is with the understanding that 1. Some party owns the toys and 2. that party expects them to be returned, undiminished, when play time is over. How does this apply to taxation? Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes That says it pretty well. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
At 05:59 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Choosing Gold over God is a good indicator of avarice. I would agree wholeheartedly. Luther once said you God is where your gold is. That's right we don't have good governance today. Due to the excessive influence of the cons/noecons the public sector is starved. This morning NPR reported that 20 years ago the US spent 7 percent of GNP on infrastructure, now it is just 4 percent. That's why roads and bridges are crumbling and water main breaks are a daily occurance. That decline did not just happen over the past 20 years. A lot of the expansion during the Clinton years was not in infrastructure!!! The Bridge in Minneapolis/St. Paul was a result of LONG TERM neglect during both Democratic and Republican administrations. We have been trying to do more with less for a long time. Voluntary associations. You must have heard of them? You know, voluntary fire companies, service organizations, the Boy Scouts, etc., etc.. All run better and leaner than government. That is simply bullshit. A fantasy you perpetuate to justy cupidity. Depends on where you live Tom. Many rural areas have some of the best volunteer Fire and rescue departments all funded out of volunteer hours and dollars. I would not want it on a national model, but I think more volunteerism would be for the better. If it were not for the National Guard and Reserves Americas defenses would not be what it is today. In the Air Force and Army they play an important and integral part, and a lot of their time is not paid Now I would not want a whole military of part-time/volunteer folks. It is best if it is done in tandem. (Oh by the way you get more bang for your buck with the Reserves/Guard. Studies have proven it.) Ask Kentucky what they would do if they did not have their National Guard available to do some of the work right now??? Oh when the Governor calls them up, they are paid by State Bucks, not Federal. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
In what way is a parent giving assets to a child undemocratic? Has any parent been denied the same opportunity, equal before the law? It makes no sense that an individual is free to give their money away, so long as they don't give it to their kin. I really do not understand the principles and assumptions that are at the root of your statements. Dynastic succession is fundamentally undemocratic. It is bad for society to let a small portion of the populace accumulate excessive wealth. It is even more undemocratic and unhealthy when that wealth is not earned. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Ethically, I believe I am compelled to help my neighbor in time of need. I reject any notion that I have the right to compel you to help your neighbor. Its a freedom thing. So you also reject the notion that your neighbor should be compelled to refrain from murdering you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Then why didn't you vote for Bob Barr? He supported all your views. Bob Barr is a hypocrite. While in Congress he was constantly meddling in the affairs of the local people and acting a bully. His favorite tactic was to put holds on legislation important to the locals until they capitulated to his weird damands. A prime example of why I consider cons/neocons to be scumbags. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Now I would not want a whole military of part-time/volunteer folks. It is best if it is done in tandem. (Oh by the way you get more bang for your buck with the Reserves/Guard. Studies have proven it.) Of course. The problem is that the cons/neocons push voluntary as a means of entirely opting out from their responsibilities. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Feb 2, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Why? Were you under the impression I was a diest? Choosing Gold over God is a good indicator of avarice. Can't do the former if you don't believe the existence of the latter is proven. False distinction. By definition excessive taxation would not be good governance. Then we clearly do not have good governance today, and throwing more money at it won't create it. Case closed. That's right we don't have good governance today. Due to the excessive influence of the cons/noecons the public sector is starved. This morning NPR reported that 20 years ago the US spent 7 percent of GNP on infrastructure, now it is just 4 percent. That's why roads and bridges are crumbling and water main breaks are a daily occurance. The budgets at the federal and state level both are being starved by massive entitlement spending and as the population ages it will only grow worse. Any demographer will tell you this. 20 years ago we also spent a lot more on the military but we cut that back (some argue to far). What is interesting is it was never the federal gov't that paid for most roads (highways excepted) and water infrastructure - that is state and local. They have chosen, and in the case of entitlements have been forced, to spend on other things. You see this in state after state. Take MD for instance - hardly a state run by neo-cons or cons in any meaningful way. How come they are not massively better off for the lack? Voluntary associations. You must have heard of them? You know, voluntary fire companies, service organizations, the Boy Scouts, etc., etc.. All run better and leaner than government. That is simply bullshit. A fantasy you perpetuate to justy cupidity. Justy cupidity? Sounds like a really sick anime name. In any event, have you ever seen how such service organizations run? Compared their overhead vs. direct operations expense to that of government? How many are you involved with that you know so well that they do not run better and leaner than gov't? I have experience with all of them. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... Once again name calling substituted for rational thought. Where is the name calling? So what is the alternative to each according to their needs? You let you neighbors starve to death or die from minor, untreated diseases. Last month a local 12-year-old boy dies of a toothache. Untreated the infection spread to his brain. It was a long agonizing death. And his parents should be charged with negligence for the neglect that brought him to that point. I will bet his general hygiene and diet stank - if we are talking about the case I recall from the papers a while back, the reports certainly implied neglect. You just don't accept that not every problem is the responsibility of government. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... I think you have amply demonstrated that you should not be the decider. I definitely would be better at it than you, but I will leave it to our elected officials. I really don't want to be dictator. I think you have demonstrated that you want to pick everyone else's pocket so you can feel better about not helping out personally. If it is government's problem then you don't have to do anything. I prefer to go out and get my hands dirty supporting my community. My standard is there must be a compelling need before I use government to take from my neighbor. Good. Meeting compelling needs is exactly what I'm focusing on. I'm glad we are finally in agreement. Foreign wars of choice are a compelling need? The NEA is a compelling need? The war on drugs (and civil liberties) is a compelling need? Income transfers are a compelling need? No, they are not. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Everyone serves a god. Wether it be one from a formal religion or it be one of their own making. It is a persons choice, but everyone serves a god. Stewart At 07:06 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Can't do the former if you don't believe the existence of the latter is proven. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
He was a politician - same thing. No doubt Tom Oh, that 140K in taxes Daschel is your idol. On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Then why didn't you vote for Bob Barr? He supported all your views. Bob Barr is a hypocrite. While in Congress he was constantly meddling in the affairs of the local people and acting a bully. His favorite tactic was to put holds on legislation important to the locals until they capitulated to his weird damands. A prime example of why I consider cons/neocons to be scumbags. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Really Tom. When a neo-con, or trad-con, or blue-dog Democrat runs into a burning building (an honor I have not had) are they opting out? When vastly greater numbers of conservatives serve in uniform than liberals, are they opting out? Are the service groups throughout the land opting out? Get over your self righteousness. On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Now I would not want a whole military of part-time/volunteer folks. It is best if it is done in tandem. (Oh by the way you get more bang for your buck with the Reserves/Guard. Studies have proven it.) Of course. The problem is that the cons/neocons push voluntary as a means of entirely opting out from their responsibilities. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Do you need a lecture on positive vs. negative liberties? There is a big difference between what I must do, and what I must not do. As said earlier, and you keep ignoring, protection from predation is a key role of limited government. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:33 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Ethically, I believe I am compelled to help my neighbor in time of need. I reject any notion that I have the right to compel you to help your neighbor. Its a freedom thing. So you also reject the notion that your neighbor should be compelled to refrain from murdering you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
And completely fails to address your silly sharing toys analogy. On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Really Tom, what is this analogy of sharing toys about? When you share toys, it is with the understanding that 1. Some party owns the toys and 2. that party expects them to be returned, undiminished, when play time is over. How does this apply to taxation? Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes That says it pretty well. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Dynastic succession to power under law, to classic privilege (private law is the root as I recall) is undemocratic. There is nothing undemocratic about allowing a holder of wealth to give that wealth to the party of their choice, be it their children, a homeless shelter, the SDS, the NAACP, or the local PBA. It is theirs to dispense. How is it bad for society to allow any individual to prosper as a result of their efforts, and to share that prosperity with their children? Building a better life for oneself, and passing that on to their children, has been a prime motivator of human society from the earliest recorded time, and probably before that. Is it your preference that on death all assets revert to the state? On Feb 2, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: In what way is a parent giving assets to a child undemocratic? Has any parent been denied the same opportunity, equal before the law? It makes no sense that an individual is free to give their money away, so long as they don't give it to their kin. I really do not understand the principles and assumptions that are at the root of your statements. Dynastic succession is fundamentally undemocratic. It is bad for society to let a small portion of the populace accumulate excessive wealth. It is even more undemocratic and unhealthy when that wealth is not earned. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Now that is an interesting assertion. Also an interesting definition of god? Could you elaborate please? No one has ever told me I believed in God before, though many appear to have assumed I was of their or similar faith based on our association. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Everyone serves a god. Wether it be one from a formal religion or it be one of their own making. It is a persons choice, but everyone serves a god. Stewart * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Kind of what I was thinking. Though not surprised by the comment considering it comes from a Reverend. Jeff M On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: Now that is an interesting assertion. Also an interesting definition of god? Could you elaborate please? No one has ever told me I believed in God before, though many appear to have assumed I was of their or similar faith based on our association. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Everyone serves a god. Wether it be one from a formal religion or it be one of their own making. It is a persons choice, but everyone serves a god. Stewart * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * The friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you. - Elbert Hubbard * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Now of course I come from the belief in only one God. But Luther stated that where ever you put your trust there is your god. For some they have made the gathering of wealth their god, others sports (do not get me started on that one) and still others politics. Essentially whatever a person puts first and foremost in their live can become and often is their god. I cannot prove that there is a God by any scientific means. For science is their God. To me I believe in my God by faith and trust. Luther put it this way, we should fear (awe,reverence) love and trust in God above all things. A god can be anything, and has been over time. As the saying goes choose your own poison. As I said this is my own belief, and no one has to hold to it if they do not want. Stewart At 07:45 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Now that is an interesting assertion. Also an interesting definition of god? Could you elaborate please? No one has ever told me I believed in God before, though many appear to have assumed I was of their or similar faith based on our association. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
One of the biggest problems in any society is what level of regulation is proper. You can under regulate and over regulate. DMA can be seen by many (except for the RIAA and others) as over regulation. However the SEC can be seen as under regulating (Along with the FDA and others.) It is a fine balancing act that must always be looked at. It is never static. The problem is that I do not see either side having a monopoly on the proper balance. Politics is about trying to find balance. It is not easy. Stewart At 07:26 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Do you need a lecture on positive vs. negative liberties? There is a big difference between what I must do, and what I must not do. As said earlier, and you keep ignoring, protection from predation is a key role of limited government. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
No, I think he meant that you shouldn't be prosecuted for violating the Good Samaritan law for which the Seinfeld 4 were found guilty in the last episode of the show. Tom Piwowar wrote: Ethically, I believe I am compelled to help my neighbor in time of need. I reject any notion that I have the right to compel you to help your neighbor. Its a freedom thing. So you also reject the notion that your neighbor should be compelled to refrain from murdering you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I agree. That's why this country is so great. It has the highest turnover of the very rich than any other country. However, I don't like the idea of the government determining excessive wealth. Is it Obama's 250K (salary), 1M, 5M, 10M, 50M, 500M? Tom Piwowar wrote: In what way is a parent giving assets to a child undemocratic? Has any parent been denied the same opportunity, equal before the law? It makes no sense that an individual is free to give their money away, so long as they don't give it to their kin. I really do not understand the principles and assumptions that are at the root of your statements. Dynastic succession is fundamentally undemocratic. It is bad for society to let a small portion of the populace accumulate excessive wealth. It is even more undemocratic and unhealthy when that wealth is not earned. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Actually it was the left which pushed for the all voluntary military. I remember it well, as I was a leftie back in the early '70s, primarily to keep my sorry ass from being sent to Nam. The Democratic Congress recognized that we could maintain a voluntary army in peace time, with the backing of the Reserves/Guard in time of war. Tom Piwowar wrote: Now I would not want a whole military of part-time/volunteer folks. It is best if it is done in tandem. (Oh by the way you get more bang for your buck with the Reserves/Guard. Studies have proven it.) Of course. The problem is that the cons/neocons push voluntary as a means of entirely opting out from their responsibilities. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I am not sure that there is anywhere that I put my trust. I have met some of the gold is god congregation, as well as the temple of sports types. I don't understand them. I know folks who live and breath politics - they strike me as needing a life. By your first and foremost maxim then for me family and my obligation to serve and protect them is my god, though I would never have put it that way. I like to remind (at almost any opportunity, I am a baaad boy g) scientific atheists that they can not prove a negative. I find that I frequently have a lot in common with deeply religious folks with the glaring exceptions of their faith and attitudes toward libertine consensual recreation (even if I generally refrain, I just don't see it as wrong). Thank you for responding. Matthew On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Now of course I come from the belief in only one God. But Luther stated that where ever you put your trust there is your god. For some they have made the gathering of wealth their god, others sports (do not get me started on that one) and still others politics. Essentially whatever a person puts first and foremost in their live can become and often is their god. I cannot prove that there is a God by any scientific means. For science is their God. To me I believe in my God by faith and trust. Luther put it this way, we should fear (awe,reverence) love and trust in God above all things. A god can be anything, and has been over time. As the saying goes choose your own poison. As I said this is my own belief, and no one has to hold to it if they do not want. Stewart At 07:45 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Now that is an interesting assertion. Also an interesting definition of god? Could you elaborate please? No one has ever told me I believed in God before, though many appear to have assumed I was of their or similar faith based on our association. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:10 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: One of the biggest problems in any society is what level of regulation is proper. Very true. You can under regulate and over regulate. DMA can be seen by many (except for the RIAA and others) as over regulation. However the SEC can be seen as under regulating (Along with the FDA and others.) You can also badly regulate what should be regulated, and well regulate what should have been left alone. It is a fine balancing act that must always be looked at. It is never static. The problem I see is many passionate regulators accept no principle on which to found the decision on wether or not to regulate. The problem is that I do not see either side having a monopoly on the proper balance. No, but I would rather err on the side of under regulation than over regulation until proven wrong. It is that liberty thing again. Politics is about trying to find balance. It is not easy. Politics is easy - implementing the decisions is hard. ;^) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Forget Karl Marx and neocons. This is a good place for an appropriately sensible quote from the Bible, like Matthew 25:31-46? [Matthew was a kool dood] ...when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ...When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ...When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'...The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'...'whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'...'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' Or do the neocons prefer Cain who whined, Am I my brother’s keeper? [Yes, we Unitarians also study Biblical history. Stewart - your turn!] OK, now back to computers. My PowerMac G5 had a BSOD yesterday. Painful, UGLY, until my husband told me he installed a ca. 2002 utility that hasn't worked since Jagwire, and G5 has Leopard. Went into command line, single user, and removed the APE bundle. Easy fix. Works like a charm. Next: BootCamp on my new iMac, maybe. Betty Why? Were you under the impression I was a diest? Choosing Gold over God is a good indicator of avarice. ...snip... Voluntary associations. You must have heard of them? You know, voluntary fire companies, service organizations, the Boy Scouts, etc., etc.. All run better and leaner than government. That is simply bullshit. A fantasy you perpetuate to justy cupidity. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Whoa! Way off topic! On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 8:50 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: OK, now back to computers. My PowerMac G5 had a BSOD yesterday. Painful, UGLY, until my husband told me he installed a ca. 2002 utility that hasn't worked since Jagwire, and G5 has Leopard. Went into command line, single user, and removed the APE bundle. Easy fix. Works like a charm. Next: BootCamp on my new iMac, maybe. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Not only that the Con's with the help of others have tried to kill the Guard and Reserve every chance they get. The last Quadrennial review in the 90's wiped out many of the same units that served with distinction in Desert Storm in the early 90's. Stewart At 07:36 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Actually it was the left which pushed for the all voluntary military. I remember it well, as I was a leftie back in the early '70s, primarily to keep my sorry ass from being sent to Nam. The Democratic Congress recognized that we could maintain a voluntary army in peace time, with the backing of the Reserves/Guard in time of war. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Hey Betty never said you didn't. Anyone can study the Bible and I encourage folks to do so. You do not have to be religious to get something out of it. Just like you everyone has their chosen profession. Mine happens to be a minister. (By the way in answer to Cain's question (Not Mc) Yes we are our brothers keepers.) I would never begrudge you or anyone else theres. Stewart At 07:50 PM 2/2/2009, you wrote: Forget Karl Marx and neocons. This is a good place for an appropriately sensible quote from the Bible, like Matthew 25:31-46? [Matthew was a kool dood] ...when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ...When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ...When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'...The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'...'whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'...'Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.' Or do the neocons prefer Cain who whined, Am I my brotherâs keeper? [Yes, we Unitarians also study Biblical history. Stewart - your turn!] OK, now back to computers. My PowerMac G5 had a BSOD yesterday. Painful, UGLY, until my husband told me he installed a ca. 2002 utility that hasn't worked since Jagwire, and G5 has Leopard. Went into command line, single user, and removed the APE bundle. Easy fix. Works like a charm. Next: BootCamp on my new iMac, maybe. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
I'll go into the rest of your argument later, but for now, what the hell does this mean? Maybe those willing to buy the product being produced? Excuse me, but frack your PLATIUDES AND SNARK remark. I won't throw the same. Jeff M On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: You need to drop the platitudes and snark and make a logical argument. If what labor produces does not belong to labor, to whom does it belong? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
You need to double check who you're replying to. And when replying to more then one, make it obvious. Jeff M On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote: On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: It has everything with who the primary producer of wealth is. You have to get past this notion that all the toys belong to you. You need to drop the platitudes and snark and make a logical argument. If what labor produces does not belong to labor, to whom does it belong? Think of it another way. If what you stated were true you would be obligated to give all your assets to the church. Why? Were you under the impression I was a diest? Disagree - the level of taxation must be balanced against the perceived needs of good governance, lest the a majority decide that good governance means taxing the wealth of the minority to deliver services to the majority. False distinction. By definition excessive taxation would not be good governance. Then we clearly do not have good governance today, and throwing more money at it won't create it. Case closed. Agreed - but government is not the only agent or means of civilization. I also mentioned the church. What do you want to add to the list? Voluntary associations. You must have heard of them? You know, voluntary fire companies, service organizations, the Boy Scouts, etc., etc.. All run better and leaner than government. How is a presumptive preference for letting labor keep the fruits of that labor where possible equal to being a looter? A looter takes but does not produce wealth - sort of like government now that I think about it The presumptive preference for not contributing one's fair share is equal to being a looter. Oh, so you get to decide what my fair share is? Who was it who said To each according to their needs ... My standard is there must be a compelling need before I use government to take from my neighbor. You can't be that stupid, so why make such absurd statements. Zimbabwe is the ultimate example of government existing only to perpetuate itself rather than serve the population. Zimbabwe has no functioning government. Oh, it functions very well at keeping itself in power to date (though it might finally be failing). Recognize the name Barney Frank? Chris Dodd? They, not Bush, blocked serious reform of Fannie and Freddie on more than one occasion. These organizations have been under attack for many years. The attacks were funded by those Wall Street banks that have brought us to ruin. They thought they were not getting enough of the profits. They wanted them all. Barney Frank is a very smart (and often very funny) man who we are blessed to have during this trying time. Man, talk about your ideological blinders. If you admire Frank, who was literally in bed with the folks he was supposed to provide oversight for, you are a lost cause. Citations please. Remember I did not vote for Bush - I am no fan of his, but I don't see his fingerprints on the housing mess. Once again, I'm not going to write a dissertation to respond to your inability to look up facts. Once again you hinge your arguments on unsupported statements. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * The friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you. - Elbert Hubbard * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Resodding the mall, was Re: [CGUYS] Senate Approves
Here I'm going to violate DRY: After reading the full Joe the Plumber quote, I am certain Obama only intended to say that the economy works best when there is prosperity at all levels. However, I think his choice of the phrase spread the wealth around was ill-considered, and he probably regrets it. On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Chris Dunford ch...@covesoftware.comwrote: No, he didn't say that they (by which I assume you mean the Obama government) would spread it around. The full quote has already been posted, but what he said was that it's better for everyone when the wealth is spread around, as opposed to the wealth being concentrated in the hands of a small number of individuals. The purpose of our Keynesian progressive tax code is already to spread the wealth around, so what he was saying simply reflects what the progressive income tax already tries to do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
