Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
I have read newspapers for many years now and am not looking forward to the day I can't walk out my door each morning and get the daily paper. So how can newspapers survive; what are they doing wrong? I used to read the Wall Street Journal. It was an excellent news-paper. They've gotten lazy since their first allegiance is to News Corp. and its [not the paper's] profits, with their editorial staff second, reporters third, support staff fourth, and readers way down the list. The only reason to read it now is for daily financial results that are hard to find on the Internet [yes, there are a few of those]. I now subscribe to the Financial Times of London, US edition. One of the big differences between the WSJ and FT is that WSJ will publish a press release as news, something they rarely did before Murdoch. FT will receive a press release, research the story, and print the details behind the press release. Without research and investigative reporting, plus reporters on the scene to observe and report, papers have little reason to exist. Publications that have devolved into -papers need to get their act together and be news-papers, if they aren't already gone. Firing the people who report the news and the rest who enable readers to get it is what's killing newspapers. Why did the Baltimore Sun/LA Times fire so many important employees during good times when their profits were over 30%? What does this bad behavior have to do with news? Can't blame that on Internet competition. How many Internet-only reporters [not commentators] will be covering your local council meetings? None? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:00 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: I now subscribe to the Financial Times of London, US edition. One of the big differences between the WSJ and FT is that WSJ will publish a press release as news, something they rarely did before Murdoch. FT will receive a press release, research the story, and print the details behind the press release. Without research and investigative reporting, plus reporters on the scene to observe and report, papers have little reason to exist. Many, even perhaps most newspapers resorted to simply printing the contents of press releases as a cost saving measure and also to get the news out there early and with little fuss or bother on their part. We all now know that the practice of merely publishing the contents of press releases and other announcements issued by the White House was greatly responsible for why newspapers failed the public throughout the period during the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Hopefully, since it appears as though most larger newspapers have decided to take the low road in terms of actually reporting on and investigating news events, the internet may actually provide a way for entities other than newspapers to be able to inform fairly large audiences with good information based upon real reporting and journalistic integrity. It is likely that the huge newspaper conglomerates may have permanently sealed their own fate, but local and smaller entities may survive and eventually serve audiences beyond their normal areas of coverage by way of the internet. Perhaps papers like the Manchester Guardian, a not-for-profit organization, can become a voice well heard beyond its normal regional boundaries. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, John Duncan Yoyo johnduncany...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: Newspapers are not managed by the brightest bulbs it seems... Yes, Tom, I'm sure there is bad management in the newspaper industry, as there is in *every* industry. But, if this is your sole criteria for why newspapers are failing, then you must agree that Rupert Murdoch's Newscorp holding, The Wall Street Journal, is the best managed newspaper in the country. It's the only one to consistently gain readership. The NYT, not so much. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/media/28paper.html?_r=1ref=busin ess Rupert has owned the WSJ less than a year. Give him time -he will ruin the WSJ soon enough. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Fox news has been steadily dropping in it's ratings. It isn't as drastic as the GOP ratings drop, but it's catching up. On May 30, 2009, at 11:36 PM, mike wrote: Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, John Duncan Yoyo johnduncany...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: Newspapers are not managed by the brightest bulbs it seems... Yes, Tom, I'm sure there is bad management in the newspaper industry, as there is in *every* industry. But, if this is your sole criteria for why newspapers are failing, then you must agree that Rupert Murdoch's Newscorp holding, The Wall Street Journal, is the best managed newspaper in the country. It's the only one to consistently gain readership. The NYT, not so much. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/media/28paper.html? _r=1ref=busin ess Rupert has owned the WSJ less than a year. Give him time -he will ruin the WSJ soon enough. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * ** *** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** ** *** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:36 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? More the NY Post. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? There are many ways in which things can be ruined, and they cannot all be measured by ratings or subscriber volume. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 31, 2009, at 9:53 AM, Chris Dunford wrote: There are many ways in which things can be ruined, and they cannot all be measured by ratings or subscriber volume. Aren't we being a bit superficial here? I asserted that product A was declining because product A had declined in quality. That the decline in quality was caused by sharp staff cut backs and forced retirements of their most talented producers. I further asserted that maintaining the quality of the product was the responsibility of management. Others asserted that product A's decline was due to the ascendency of product B and that A's management was powerless. I note that product A was declining prior to the wide availability of product B. I note that product A's poor management existed prior to the wide availability of product B. Are the defenders of A's poor management suggesting that time travel was involved in the decline of product A? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? Of course not. I don't believe what I wrote is true, but to be consistent with the World According to Tom, that must be why that situation is what it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Actually i wrote that in response to John Duncan's response to you. Sent from my iPod On May 31, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: Do you say that because of how badly Fox news does in the ratings? Of course not. I don't believe what I wrote is true, but to be consistent with the World According to Tom, that must be why that situation is what it is. *** ** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** *** ** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
I asserted that product A was declining because product A had declined in quality. That the decline in quality was caused by sharp staff cut backs and forced retirements of their most talented producers. I further asserted that maintaining the quality of the product was the responsibility of management. I don't think it's that simple. Others asserted that product A's decline was due to the ascendency of product B and that A's management was powerless. You asserted that B had no bearing on the situation, an assertion unsupported by fact. I assert that the Internet (oops, B) is an extremely disruptive technology for publishing and they are still wrestling with how to cope and adapt to it. I agree that journalism has been in decline for some time now, probably longer than when I earned my undergrad degree in Journalism in 1990. A good number of the students in the program were idiots and clueless as to current events at the time. That didn't bode well from my view. Who knows how many of them went on to a career in journalism, but it was slim pickins for talented and informed writers. Are newspapers powerless? No, but publishers are clearly in a bind and not sure how to sell their product in a medium that expects information for free. If your market is inexorably shrinking, all the good management in the world won't grow your product. (An interesting take here: http://tinyurl.com/5t8uq9) I note that product A was declining prior to the wide availability of product B. I note that product A's poor management existed prior to the wide availability of product B. Actually, you noted no such thing. You provided no timeline for your theory. Are the defenders of A's poor management suggesting that time travel was involved in the decline of product A? No one is defending poor management. That's you arguing with mythical posters in your head. This is more sophisticated than chicken or egg. Did the cuts precipitate the decline or did the decline precipitate the cuts? It's likely a combination and a self-reinforcing dynamic, but circulation has been sharp decline since about 2003, when B was in wide availability. (Newspaper circulation absolutely peaked in the 70's and has been declining since). It's important to note that I have no horse in this race, other than role as a passive observer of news and journalism. I don't watch broadcast news, as I find it to be a very sub-standard product, filled with shouting heads and information-poor, endlessly repeated stories. I like newspapers and print in general, as it is a very practical medium to carry information with you without resorting to an complicated electronic device and is more information-rich than broadcast. But, it's clear that many people get their news primarily from broadcast sources and, increasingly, online. I originally posted this to perhaps generate a discussion of the impact of technology (and how it's changing culture as well) on the news industry, newsmags specifically, but it's hard to do that when you have someone who is intent on pushing their ideological narrative as the answer to all things. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Yes...evil MS IT killed newspapersthat is why David Simon is so disenchanted with print journalists, the evil MS empire of IT...or the evil IT empire of MS or something. On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:29 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On May 31, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: I don't believe what I wrote is true My point exactly. On the other hand, what I write is true. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Only in your twisted world is a first-person account by a participant going to be branded an ideological narrative. You don't work in publishing. You work *for* people who work in publishing. It's like my driving to work makes me an expert on asphalt. Others who watched it happen will say the same thing as I did. And others who watched it will say differently. Oh that's right, you believe in fairies, unicorns and objective observers. The following is of interest because Mr. Simon moved on to greener pastures in 1995. So to disagree with him you will again have to invoke time travel and the modus operandi. We can go back forth all day on who's right. Reality backs me up, rather than your cherry-picked anecdotes of dead people. Go bother other people with your pointless jingoism. Bye-bye. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Tom, thank you for the URL for the David Simon testimony. The testimony was well written, with the ring of truth. I was just talking with a neighbor of mine, who was a manager at Sears, and he had a similar story to tell about Sears. Jeff, I don't really want to argue with you, because I like to discuss issues and not dispense or receive vitriol, and also because I don't think that I have the ability to do a good job of it; but you shouldn't argue with Tom for the same reason as my latter reason. It's obvious that Tom's working with people, becoming friends with them, and having them tell him the inside story, is in a way describing what Mr. Simon the journalist did. Your analogy about driving over asphalt has no intellectual content or relevance to Tom's statements. On May 31, 2009, at 3:00 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On May 31, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: I originally posted this to perhaps generate a discussion of the impact of technology (and how it's changing culture as well) on the news industry, newsmags specifically, but it's hard to do that when you have someone who is intent on pushing their ideological narrative as the answer to all things. Only in your twisted world is a first-person account by a participant going to be branded an ideological narrative. Others who watched it happen will say the same thing as I did. The following is of interest because Mr. Simon moved on to greener pastures in 1995. So to disagree with him you will again have to invoke time travel and the modus operandi. http://commerce.senate.gov/public/_files/DavidSimonTestimonyFutureofJournalism.pdf On May 31, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: You don't work in publishing. You work *for* people who work in publishing. It's like my driving to work makes me an expert on asphalt. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Only in your twisted world is a first-person account by a participant going to be branded an ideological narrative. You don't work in publishing. You work *for* people who work in publishing. It's like my driving to work makes me an expert on asphalt. I worked in publishing--newspapers, magazines, books, advertising, PR. Newspapers must exist first to serve their communities and customers. They won't make any profit at all if they don't do that job. That's obvious. Barely making a profit is more the norm for newspapers. The ones that hurt the most recently and were the fastest to fold were part of leveraged buyouts, incurring so much debt that the meager 'true' profits from the papers couldn't cover the huge debt with interest piled on top of that. I've also done support work for publishing companies. What Tom does is similar to what I did, but more technical. You can't work with a company of that kind without understanding the culture, needs, procedures, interactions, and still remain as a valued consultant to that company. Your being on the ComputerGuys list reading posts about the publishing industry, and in IT, doesn't make you more than vaguely familiar with publishing, in the same way as reading a book or newspaper makes you familiar with publishing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: Newspapers are not managed by the brightest bulbs it seems... Yes, Tom, I'm sure there is bad management in the newspaper industry, as there is in *every* industry. But, if this is your sole criteria for why newspapers are failing, then you must agree that Rupert Murdoch's Newscorp holding, The Wall Street Journal, is the best managed newspaper in the country. It's the only one to consistently gain readership. The NYT, not so much. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/media/28paper.html?_r=1ref=busin ess Rupert has owned the WSJ less than a year. Give him time -he will ruin the WSJ soon enough. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Newspapers are not managed by the brightest bulbs it seems... Executive recruiters likely do not swarm the industry for talent; certainly not in the same way they've gone after leaders at companies such as General Electric, Wells Fargo Bank or Microsoft over the years. Indeed, the June issue of Fast Company, a very sharp tech and business publication, features a cover story on The 100 Most Creative People in Business. Perhaps I missed it but I don't think I saw a single newspaper executive mentioned. http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/james_warren/2009/05/ s_newspaper_publishers_are_quietly_holding_a_very_very_important_con clave_today_will_you_soon_be.php * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Stephen Brownfield steveei...@verizon.net wrote: I personally believe that person should know the basics of at least two OS. Much of it carries over from one to the other. Ah, but this is the United States of America. We are steeped in our OWN culture, and avoid the contamination of others such as the French or of... Macintosh, which sounds kinda Scottish or something else that conjures images of Old Europe. We don't learn to speak foreign languages, we don't learn much about the rest of the world, and we don't want to learn about different computer operating systems either. It has long been held that the business of government (our government) is business. Business uses Windows, and thus we must teach the masses Windows. I think this is called cloning at the non-molecular level. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
t.piwowar wrote: Based on your conduct here I don't think I would accept your word on anything at all. Bingo! These guys are the AIG of the list. Except it's AIB, arrogance, ignorance, belligerence. The AIB group. Tiresome. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Bingo! These guys are the AIG of the list. Except it's AIB, arrogance, ignorance, belligerence. The AIB group. Tiresome. Jordan, it's really too bad that people like you and Tom let a blinding partisan ideology fatally impair your thinking. Try reality. It's refreshing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 27, 2009, at 5:32 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Ah, but this is the United States of America. We are steeped in our OWN culture, and avoid the contamination of others such as the French or of... Macintosh, which sounds kinda Scottish or something else that conjures images of Old Europe. And as we see all to often here, their favorite tactic is to just say it again LOUDER. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Now you're just making things up. This is the industry I specialize in. So I know that by WFB rules I'm disqualified. We definitely don't want somebody posting here who knows what they are writing about. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 11:50 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: According to stats last year, 74 million people buy and read daily newspapers. That's not chump change. You really can't be well informed without reading the news. Radio, TV, Internet don't have the important details, especially for local news. Owning a newspaper can be a very profitable business, a 10 to 15 percent ROI in good times. The problem is that the greedy conglomerates that rolled-up one newspaper after another over the last couple of decades have Wall Street sized notions of what a reasonable return on investment is. When the newspapers could not meet these nutty profitability goals (30 percent ROI), they started slashing costs. Every dollar they slashed lost them over a dollar in revenues, but they were bad at math so they kept on slashing. They slashed themselves into negative profitability. Now they blame everybody, except themselves. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 26, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Dead tree is on the way out, for all intents and purposes. The only question is who will be the last paper standing, and when. I thought newspapers were killed long ago by radio and then radio was wiped out by television. Now television is being wiped out by the internet. Or maybe not. Maybe that's just an ignorant notion about how media works. For Tom and Betty, a good explanation of what is happening with CQ and non-profit ownership: http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2009/03/bridge-to-nowhere-non-profit- press.html Did you keep reading past the initial rather shallow essay. The commentators were much more insightful. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Why are you repeating yourself? It's kind of early to start recycling your arguments. -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:COMPUTERGUYS- l...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of t.piwowar Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:37 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag? On May 25, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Now you're just making things up. This is the industry I specialize in. So I know that by WFB rules I'm disqualified. We definitely don't want somebody posting here who knows what they are writing about. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 11:58 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Truly amazing. Not your shaggy dog story, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality and instead spin a mythos because they gored an ox near and dear to you. Sounds more like sour grapes than any concrete reality. Truly amazing. So you are an expert on the publishing industry too? Or is this the other side of the WFB rules? You have no idea about what you are pontificating about and are therefore eminently qualified. I was there. I am still there. I'm working to help publishers work their way out of the mess they find themselves in. So of course a recounting of what actually happened is derided by you as a shaggy dog story. Based on your conduct here I don't think I would accept your word on anything at all. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Truly amazing. So you are an expert on the publishing industry too? Or is this the other side of the WFB rules? You have no idea about what you are pontificating about and are therefore eminently qualified. I was there. I am still there. I'm working to help publishers work their way out of the mess they find themselves in. So of course a recounting of what actually happened is derided by you as a shaggy dog story. Based on your conduct here I don't think I would accept your word on anything at all. See Tom's Rule of Social Interaction #1: Everyone else is quite stupid. You must be right, though. The whole Internet and entire news industry are just lying about industry conditions to make you look bad, since you figured out their cunning plan. Good thing we blew the lid off this conspiracy before it was too late. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
I thought newspapers were killed long ago by radio and then radio was wiped out by television. Now television is being wiped out by the internet. Or maybe not. Maybe that's just an ignorant notion about how media works. It's not my ignorance that's showing. All of the hysterical predictions you cite were just that: predictions. They were issued at the start of the new technologies. The effect of the Internet on newspapers is a long time coming and roof, as they say, is in the pudding. The recession was just the last push over the precipice. It's clear as glass to anyone looking at the situation that doesn't have an ideological narrative to push that this is most likely the beginning of the end for the newspaper industry as we know it. I've already said that some will undoubtedly survive, but the future for newspapers and newsmags is bleak. Did you keep reading past the initial rather shallow essay. The commentators were much more insightful. Do you mean where the Marxists show up and start citing McChesney about making newspapers little more than arms of party machines to dispense government propaganda, if they want the money to keep flowing? Oh yes, crackling good insight. The candle and buggy-whip maker unions would be quite pleased with such a plan to prop up their ailing industries. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 26, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: See Tom's Rule of Social Interaction #1: Everyone else is quite stupid. Just fed up with you once again pontificating about something that you know nothing about. So you Googled and read a few blog posts. Wow, you are an instant expert. I'm so impressed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Much of what Tom saw about IT in the publishing business, I have seen in my own work environment (a county government agency). One such example: The IT department is proud of the fact that they have convinced school age section of our agency to abandon it's Mac for Windows machines. They say it will be easier if they (the students) don't have to to learn a new OS when they come to the adult program. I work in the adult program and have never had a client who had that problem. (I've been working with Adults computers for over 12 years - longer than anyone has been working in our IT dept.) I personally believe that person should know the basics of at least two OS. Much of it carries over from one to the other. Steve t.piwowar wrote: On May 25, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Now you're just making things up. Of course, because I specialize in working with the publishing industry, by WFB rules I'm disqualified. Perhaps a new slogan for M$: only the ignorant need apply. Several newspapers and magazines that are household names are/were my clients. I observed and assisted with their move to computerized production. In the early days I watched their existing staff take to the new technology with great enthusiasm. Getting the computer part right was not hard, they were buying Macintoshes and developing systems for themselves. Since they knew the business they knew what needed to be done and they did it. It was a golden age. Then I watched management get sold on the idea that IT professionals could do the job so much better. The publishing professionals were told to butt out. The IT professionals announced that Macs were toys and that real IT was done with PCs. I started getting calls from the publishing professionals screaming for help. The IT professionals were tossing out stuff that worked while putting in stuff that required huge effort to use. The IT pros even started turning away advertisers who were sending them Mac files. Their new systems would not work with nonstandard files and, of course, it was not PC style to interoperate. Productivity dropped, costs rose. The IT pros convinced management that the problem was all those publishing people on the staff. Management started cutting the people who knew about publishing and the ranks of the IT pros swelled because it was a lot of work to maintain their crummy IT systems. Management was terrified that everything could quickly collapse if the IT beast was not constantly fed. On the other hand forcing a popular columnist to retire early would not have such an instantly terrifying impact. So they kept trimming and trimming and trimming -- the soul of their enterprise gradually vanished. Then the web came along and the IT pros had an even easier time convincing management that it was all about computers. They claimed that everything would be automated. They told management that it was all about data entry and coding everything in XML. Then computers would then rewrite the data into multiple streams. Doing hardly any work the computers would produce a newspaper, a news magazine, specialized newsletters, and websites. Huge profits would roll in and nobody would be the wiser. There was only one problem: the IT professionals did not know what the hell they were talking about. Management now reaps the whirlwind. Conveniently they blame the economy. Bad managers always do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
See Tom's Rule of Social Interaction #1: Everyone else is quite stupid. Just fed up with you once again pontificating about something that you know nothing about. So you Googled and read a few blog posts. Wow, you are an instant expert. I'm so impressed. Tom's Rule for Social Interaction #2: Lather, rinse, repeat. There is no Rule #3. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
That seems to fit into the American culture of one size fits all. My cousin graduated from what we would call a Vo-Tech high school in Germany (Hochshule) and she was required to learn two different foreign languages along with her German studies. Here if they learn one foreign language you are lucky. (In Alabama to receive an Advanced Diploma you are required to have two years of a foreign language. It is not required for a regular HS diploma) So it just makes sense for the students to learn both. My wife did when she went back and got her HS diploma as an adult. Used her training to work at a Newspaper that ran Mac's. (which were not problem free.) Stewart At 09:09 PM 5/26/2009, you wrote: Much of what Tom saw about IT in the publishing business, I have seen in my own work environment (a county government agency). One such example: The IT department is proud of the fact that they have convinced school age section of our agency to abandon it's Mac for Windows machines. They say it will be easier if they (the students) don't have to to learn a new OS when they come to the adult program. I work in the adult program and have never had a client who had that problem. (I've been working with Adults computers for over 12 years - longer than anyone has been working in our IT dept.) I personally believe that person should know the basics of at least two OS. Much of it carries over from one to the other. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Much of what Tom saw about IT in the publishing business, I have seen in my own work environment (a county government agency). Oh, I have no doubt that these things happened. I also don't have any doubt that Tom parsed it through his iFilter and exaggerated his claims. Moreover, I don't doubt that Tom has a narrative to push and damn the inconvenient facts that get in the way. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Yes, it's related to computers, sortakinda. The print media scrambles to remain relevant in the information singularity age. Michael Kinsley moons Time magazine on the way out the door and posts an overly-long, but spot on, critique of Newsweek's new model, which is to tell the booges to piss off the and hit up the ruling class to cancel their Harpers sub. http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=7cc5324e-0fbc-4316-a656-d49e77e3a5a4 Michael Kinsley is so bitter. Could he do a better job for Newsweek? Nah. They don't want him either I worked for a small town paper in Havre de Grace, Maryland for a while. It merged with another local paper. It worked out well. Then they were bought by the Baltimore Sun, but that was OK because the original paper had been owned and run by a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter from the Sun. Then the Sun was bought by the LA Times which cut reporters and support staff to increase profits. LA Times was bought by the Chicago Tribune which had already been bought by some guy who had no interest in newspapers. The Trib is bankrupt and bringing down everything else. Main problem isn't lack of interest or readership, which is less, but not seriously less. Advertising is down, but it's always down in a recession. Main problem with many of the good newspapers has been conglomos--ownership by corporate entities that have no interest in publications other than making a profit. A 10% profit for a newspaper is OK, but conglomos want 30% profit. Solutions? Start with local ownership, force conglomerates to break up so news can be local again. Profits are OK, but the combined nonprofit/profit model of the St. Petersburg Times works well, and keeps it local. Online solution? How about a clearing house for newspaper content where you pay a monthly or yearly subscription to view stories in a variety of papers. When you log in, each newspaper gets paid by keeping track of the articles you view, not by your ID, only by number of readers for each article. Can this be done? Might work. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 11:05 AM, b_s-wilk wrote: Main problem with many of the good newspapers has been conglomos-- ownership by corporate entities that have no interest in publications other than making a profit. A 10% profit for a newspaper is OK, but conglomos want 30% profit. Solutions? Start with local ownership, force conglomerates to break up so news can be local again. Profits are OK, but the combined nonprofit/profit model of the St. Petersburg Times works well, and keeps it local. Another example of excessive greed ruining a good thing. As you say, newspapers were at a stable place between expenses and revenues. Owners made a reasonable living. The greedy conglomerates wanted more and didn't care about the long-term consequences of their short-term greed. They started to cut and for every dollar they cut they lost over a dollar in revenue. The math is inescapable. PS: The Petersburg Times is owned by the Pointer Institute, a non- profit that specializes in journalism. They are now in the process of selling off Congressional Quarterly. I wonder what that is about. It will be a shame to see CQ go the way of the Tribune Cos. Online solution? How about a clearing house for newspaper content where you pay a monthly or yearly subscription to view stories in a variety of papers. When you log in, each newspaper gets paid by keeping track of the articles you view, not by your ID, only by number of readers for each article. Can this be done? Might work. News for the well off and no news for the rest of the population? I don't feel good about this. I think advertising supported models can work. But running an online news service using the same model as a paper-based publication is not a good fit. They need to figure out how to work with the new medium. Compare to the growing pains of the early days of radio or television. In the beginning people did not know what to do about those mediums too. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Another example of excessive greed ruining a good thing. As you say, newspapers were at a stable place between expenses and revenues. Owners made a reasonable living. The greedy conglomerates wanted more and didn't care about the long-term consequences of their short-term greed. They started to cut and for every dollar they cut they lost over a dollar in revenue. The math is inescapable. I think Tom has hit on it. It's not that the business model is failing and that consumers are divesting themselves of archaic information delivery methods and using other means of gathering information now, but that business owners wanted to see their investments fail and not make a positive return. It's all very simple: greedy capitalists want to lose money. PS: The Petersburg Times is owned by the Pointer Institute, a non- profit that specializes in journalism. They are now in the process of selling off Congressional Quarterly. I wonder what that is about. I wonder if it's that even non-profits have to obey the laws of supply and demand? News for the well off and no news for the rest of the population? You seem to think that's a fine idea for Newsweek. I think advertising supported models can work. Then, why don't they? But running an online news service using the same model as a paper-based publication is not a good fit. They need to figure out how to work with the new medium. Compare to the growing pains of the early days of radio or television. In the beginning people did not know what to do about those mediums too. Companies that started out online seem to understand this, but the dinosaurs of the print media are baffled by this medium. Only the wall Street Journal has managed to make money on their online product. Old print media companies keep wanting to enforce the old gatekeeper role on the consumer, when the consumer has already told them to stuff it. WaPo keeps wanting me to register for their online version and I keep telling them via bugmenot that I have no interest in doing so. They don't seem to be listening. Maybe I should just give them bad data instead. Ars Technica is a good example. I remember when they were a smallish site for geeks in the late 90s, but are now owned by Conde Nast. The advertising only model didn't work well enough for them to cover costs, so they started charging a small annual fee for certain information. It worked well enough to keep them afloat and also to make them a viable enough purchase for an old media company that is figuring out how to work the new media. Not to worry though, the left has it all figured out how to save newspapers: just make them wards of the state. What could possibly go wrong? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
It's not that the business model is failing and that consumers are divesting themselves of archaic information delivery methods and using other means of gathering information now, but that business owners wanted to see their investments fail and not make a positive return. It is not uncommon to have businesses do poorly because management is bad at math. A good example are those who buy Windows PCs because that are cheap, but then have to pay for frequent replacements, high maintenance costs, and low staff productivity. For every $1 they save on expenses they probably lose $1.50 in TCO. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
It is not uncommon to have businesses do poorly because management is bad at math. *All* the businesses in the same industry going under all at the same time? That must have been one lousy year for MBA grads. Is this Gitmo logic? It seems awfully tortured. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: *All* the businesses in the same industry going under all at the same time? That's what happens when the spreadsheet guys do rollups. You get management that knows nothing about the business they pretend manage, excessive centralization, a corporate monoculture, and the high probability of a mass die off. You just saw the results of this is the financial sector. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
That's what happens when the spreadsheet guys do rollups. You get management that knows nothing about the business they pretend manage, excessive centralization, a corporate monoculture, and the high probability of a mass die off. You just saw the results of this is the financial sector. Now you're just making things up. The recession has hurt the publishing industry, no doubt at all, but that was just the banana peel next to the grave. I would guess that after another 10 years or so, you'll be looking at only a few large city papers left with successful local papers scattered within. Journalism, such that it is today, will survive. Print news, not so much. As to newsmags, I'm really at a loss as to why anyone reads them any longer, other than inertia. 40 years ago, when the news industry was very stratified and slow moving, they made sense, but so did the evening news. I suspect that if you took away Dr.'s office subscriptions, you'd have money-losing ventures across the board. I haven't willingly read a Time, US News or Newsweek in probably 15 years, excluding physicals and checkups. I do continue to subscribe to magazines at home and work, and enjoy them greatly, but they're topical, not news. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 25, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Now you're just making things up. Of course, because I specialize in working with the publishing industry, by WFB rules I'm disqualified. Perhaps a new slogan for M$: only the ignorant need apply. Several newspapers and magazines that are household names are/were my clients. I observed and assisted with their move to computerized production. In the early days I watched their existing staff take to the new technology with great enthusiasm. Getting the computer part right was not hard, they were buying Macintoshes and developing systems for themselves. Since they knew the business they knew what needed to be done and they did it. It was a golden age. Then I watched management get sold on the idea that IT professionals could do the job so much better. The publishing professionals were told to butt out. The IT professionals announced that Macs were toys and that real IT was done with PCs. I started getting calls from the publishing professionals screaming for help. The IT professionals were tossing out stuff that worked while putting in stuff that required huge effort to use. The IT pros even started turning away advertisers who were sending them Mac files. Their new systems would not work with nonstandard files and, of course, it was not PC style to interoperate. Productivity dropped, costs rose. The IT pros convinced management that the problem was all those publishing people on the staff. Management started cutting the people who knew about publishing and the ranks of the IT pros swelled because it was a lot of work to maintain their crummy IT systems. Management was terrified that everything could quickly collapse if the IT beast was not constantly fed. On the other hand forcing a popular columnist to retire early would not have such an instantly terrifying impact. So they kept trimming and trimming and trimming -- the soul of their enterprise gradually vanished. Then the web came along and the IT pros had an even easier time convincing management that it was all about computers. They claimed that everything would be automated. They told management that it was all about data entry and coding everything in XML. Then computers would then rewrite the data into multiple streams. Doing hardly any work the computers would produce a newspaper, a news magazine, specialized newsletters, and websites. Huge profits would roll in and nobody would be the wiser. There was only one problem: the IT professionals did not know what the hell they were talking about. Management now reaps the whirlwind. Conveniently they blame the economy. Bad managers always do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Management now reaps the whirlwind. Conveniently they blame the economy. Bad managers always do. You can blame whomever you like. Good managers do the job and we don't have to apologize for what we do. If you think this stuff is easy you need to try running it. It isn't easy and it mostly sucks, frankly. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
According to stats last year, 74 million people buy and read daily newspapers. That's not chump change. You really can't be well informed without reading the news. Radio, TV, Internet don't have the important details, especially for local news. I have several subscriptions--news, econ, tech, science, fashion, and read the newspaper that my husband brings home every day. Can't live without the Sunday papers--ads, coupons, entertainment, news. Can't get it all online--just some, with a lot of distractions. My son has a job in DC. He commutes by Metrorail. He reads--a lot more now on the Metro. First he had his iPod shuffle, then his iPhone, but yesterday he told me that he's been reading magazines and newspapers on the train. His roommate also subscribes to the WaPo. His generation appears to be more interested in news than his older friends. They're also more interested in politics and getting involved, because all politics is local especially when you work in DC. Dead tree news will not die for a long time. Kindle and the like won't replace it. Journalism, such that it is today, will survive. Print news, not so much. As to newsmags, I'm really at a loss as to why anyone reads them any longer, other than inertia. 40 years ago, when the news industry was very stratified and slow moving, they made sense, but so did the evening news. I suspect that if you took away Dr.'s office subscriptions, you'd have money-losing ventures across the board. I haven't willingly read a Time, US News or Newsweek in probably 15 years, excluding physicals and checkups. I do continue to subscribe to magazines at home and work, and enjoy them greatly, but they're topical, not news. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
There was only one problem: the IT professionals did not know what the hell they were talking about. Management now reaps the whirlwind. Conveniently they blame the economy. Bad managers always do. Truly amazing. Not your shaggy dog story, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality and instead spin a mythos because they gored an ox near and dear to you. Sounds more like sour grapes than any concrete reality. Ad revenues down by 25%. Circulation steadily declining for years, down 13% average for the industry. Subscriptions plummeting. Craigslist eviscerating classifieds, the bread and butter of newspaper revenue. But yeah, the IT guys hoodwinking management took down an entire industry. Sure, Tom. Whatever you say. The Internet had *nothing* to do with it. But, don't take my word for it, read what Howard Kurtz has to say: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002 044.html Or, about the anxiety over forcing the old media's square peg into the Internet's round hole: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content _id=1003976278 Ah, numbers: http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2009/04/diving-circulation-raise-newspaper.htm l http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2009/04/dont-blame-google-for-newspaper-woes.h tml http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2009/04/newspaper-web-sales-lag-by-every.html * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
According to stats last year, 74 million people buy and read daily newspapers. That's not chump change. You really can't be well informed without reading the news. Radio, TV, Internet don't have the important details, especially for local news. That was last year. Depending on your paper, it's a lot fewer this year: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EkLOPCrR0fc/SfXTimHGDJI/AsI/vkmMUyxkoVI/s1600-h/circ+div+4.09.jpg Dead tree news will not die for a long time. Kindle and the like won't replace it. Dead tree is on the way out, for all intents and purposes. The only question is who will be the last paper standing, and when. For Tom and Betty, a good explanation of what is happening with CQ and non-profit ownership: http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2009/03/bridge-to-nowhere-non-profit-press.html * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Yes, it's related to computers, sortakinda. Well, this is getting seriously weird. I'm not sure paper is going to survive as a delivery vehicle. Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Eric S. Sande esa...@erols.com wrote: Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. What am I gonna read in the loo? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. What am I gonna read in the loo? http://tinyurl.com/redefh * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote: Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. What am I gonna read in the loo? http://tinyurl.com/redefh Very good. I have another idea. A whole new line of digital readers specifically designed for filling this vast need, perhaps even incorporated into the fixtures themselves with flip and swivel screens. All the techno geeks will scarf them up like crazy and since they will be bathroom based, I'm sure they will be primarily running Linux. JUST KIDDING. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Eric S. Sande esa...@erols.com wrote: Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. What am I gonna read in the loo? Steve http://tinyurl.com/q79wga Or I read magazines. Yea, I know what you're thinking, and no, I read MacWorld, CarandDriver, Mother Earth. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote: Even the Post has cut back significantly. Problem is, as I see it, is that only the connected will be connected, if you get my drift. What am I gonna read in the loo? http://tinyurl.com/redefh Very good. I have another idea. A whole new line of digital readers specifically designed for filling this vast need, perhaps even incorporated into the fixtures themselves with flip and swivel screens. All the techno geeks will scarf them up like crazy and since they will be bathroom based, I'm sure they will be primarily running Linux. JUST KIDDING. Steve Or maybe better yet, jokes and short stories printed on TP. Read'um and wipe. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 24, 2009, at 4:25 AM, Eric S. Sande wrote: I'm not sure paper is going to survive as a delivery vehicle. Take a look at: http://www.city.ac.uk/journalism/dps/ thurman_myllylahti.pdf Taking the paper out of news: A case study of Taloussanomat, Europe’s first online-only newspaper Getting rid of paper cut their production costs in half. I'm sure that made their IT guys feel smug. But after a few months they discovered that advertising revenues were down by 75%. In other words, for every dollar they saved they lost a dollar and a half in revenue. Not a winning strategy. As long as newspapers think the solution is cutting back they will be trapped by this simple reality. The more they cut the more will their losses multiply. Lots of IT guys that don't understand business should be shown the door. That would be a cut back that would make them money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
On May 24, 2009, at 12:30 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=7cc5324e-0fbc-4316-a656- d49e77e3a5a4 Kinsley's TNR op ed validates his getting canned by Time. Lots of vitriol and almost no useful insights. Just crazy stuff -- like US News is said to exist still in some form, but no one I know has seen it lately is bizarre. The facile reply is that it is on the news stand shelf right next to Newsweek and Time. After somebody starts off like that should I pay attention to the rest of his raving? On the other hand Meacham editor's letter is not much better. It starts off with It is no secret that the business of journalism is in trouble. That is a dangerously false premise. It would have been better and wiser to write It is no secret that the business of journalism is changing. It is changing and participants will need to adapt. Is that tragic? The failure of these businesses to adapt is the tragic part. Their management lacks strategic vision. Fortunately Meacham's staff does better than he does. I picked up his revamped Newsweek and found it about as good as it was before. It gave me insights and information that I had not gotten from the media I usually listen to. Maybe I should give up watching the nightly news and spend that half hour with Newsweek? But it is easier and more restful to just sit in front of the boob tube. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wither the newsmag?
Don't they already have these in Japan? On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote: What am I gonna read in the loo? http://tinyurl.com/redefh Very good. I have another idea. A whole new line of digital readers specifically designed for filling this vast need, perhaps even incorporated into the fixtures themselves with flip and swivel screens. All the techno geeks will scarf them up like crazy and since they will be bathroom based, I'm sure they will be primarily running Linux. JUST KIDDING. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
