Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Rev. Stewart Marshall Talk about rationing. When I hear those commercials that rail against rationing, I wonder which insurance company paid for it, and if the CEO has the same coverage that all his employees are offered. I think the congress critters must be made to live under the same rules that they set for everyone. I heard about one proposed amendment that would've put Congress under the same plan as everybody else. I'm pretty sure that was laughed away...sad -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly Whip me, beat me, make me code in COBOL!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:20 PM, b_s-wilkb1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Single-payer did NOT prevent you from getting the care you need. Managed care did. Be informed and you can be better served. When I hear all the railing against a single-payer system, with the attendant calls for maintaining a system in the United States that is singular in the developed world, I wonder why ours has to be different from all the others? Why uniquely American, which is the term I keep hearing? If our system of insurance is the best in terms of the care being provided, why does the rest of the industrialized world pretty much have a different system? We are talking here about democracies, where citizens have the ability to change what does not work. If those systems in other modern and developed nations are so horrible, why have they been so widely adopted for so long? Why have they not been thrown out considering the horror stories one hears from our insurance companies? Since it is recognized that there are big problems associated with our current system, why the digging in of heels to keep it as it is? Surely, when one applies a bit of logic to the equation, money is the root cause of retaining the status quo. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I am sure there are billions of reasons. ($$) Stewart At 06:08 AM 7/28/2009, you wrote: When I hear all the railing against a single-payer system, with the attendant calls for maintaining a system in the United States that is singular in the developed world, I wonder why ours has to be different from all the others? Why uniquely American, which is the term I keep hearing? If our system of insurance is the best in terms of the care being provided, why does the rest of the industrialized world pretty much have a different system? We are talking here about democracies, where citizens have the ability to change what does not work. If those systems in other modern and developed nations are so horrible, why have they been so widely adopted for so long? Why have they not been thrown out considering the horror stories one hears from our insurance companies? Since it is recognized that there are big problems associated with our current system, why the digging in of heels to keep it as it is? Surely, when one applies a bit of logic to the equation, money is the root cause of retaining the status quo. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:20 PM, b_s-wilkb1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Single-payer did NOT prevent you from getting the care you need. Managed care did. Be informed and you can be better served. When I hear all the railing against a single-payer system, with the attendant calls for maintaining a system in the United States that is singular in the developed world, I wonder why ours has to be different from all the others? Why uniquely American, which is the term I keep hearing? Because corporations that care nothing for the people are running the government. If our system of insurance is the best in terms of the care being provided, why does the rest of the industrialized world pretty much have a different system? We are talking here about democracies, where citizens have the ability to change what does not work. If those systems in other modern and developed nations are so horrible, why have they been so widely adopted for so long? Why have they not been thrown out considering the horror stories one hears from our insurance companies? Since it is recognized that there are big problems associated with our current system, why the digging in of heels to keep it as it is? Surely, when one applies a bit of logic to the equation, money is the root cause of retaining the status quo. Just as a note here: hopefully we're all aware that the Lewin Group is the source of the only study that the Repubs point to in their argument, and that the Lewin Group is owned by health _insurance _giant United Health Care. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
The people in the rest of the world don't change their health care system because they are sheep. Ours is the best health care system in the world. Not perfect -- but we can't afford a perfect system. The U.S. does better than most other countries in most things. Many people come to the U.S. for medical treatment that they can't obtain in their own country. How many Americans leave the U.S. to find medical treatment they can't find here? Socialism is all about producing equality by taking things away from the fortunate -- folks who, for the most part, are fortunate because they or their parents worked hard and smart to earn. Fred Holmes At 07:08 AM 7/28/2009, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: When I hear all the railing against a single-payer system, with the attendant calls for maintaining a system in the United States that is singular in the developed world, I wonder why ours has to be different from all the others? Why uniquely American, which is the term I keep hearing? If our system of insurance is the best in terms of the care being provided, why does the rest of the industrialized world pretty much have a different system? We are talking here about democracies, where citizens have the ability to change what does not work. If those systems in other modern and developed nations are so horrible, why have they been so widely adopted for so long? Why have they not been thrown out considering the horror stories one hears from our insurance companies? Since it is recognized that there are big problems associated with our current system, why the digging in of heels to keep it as it is? Surely, when one applies a bit of logic to the equation, money is the root cause of retaining the status quo. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
We aren't digging in our heels to keep it as it is. The Republicans tried to make all sorts of changes to the health care system in the previous administration, all of which were filibustered or defeated by Democrats playing knee-jerk opposition to everything the Republicans did. Fred Holmes At 07:08 AM 7/28/2009, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Since it is recognized that there are big problems associated with our current system, why the digging in of heels to keep it as it is? Surely, when one applies a bit of logic to the equation, money is the root cause of retaining the status quo. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Not tainted by any facts? 1. The other countries we are talking about are democracies, so they can vote to change, and no other country tries to replicate the US healthcare system. 2. Few of us can afford our current system. Fewer still will be able to as it gets more expensive. 3. Life expectancy in the US is not faring as well as the other systems we are discussing. 4. Medical-vacations were introduced in the past few years, as people go abroad to get operations they cannot afford in the US. 5. Socialism? WTF; can't you do any better than that? Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- The people in the rest of the world don't change their health care system because they are sheep. Ours is the best health care system in the world. Not perfect -- but we can't afford a perfect system. The U.S. does better than most other countries in most things. Many people come to the U.S. for medical treatment that they can't obtain in their own country. How many Americans leave the U.S. to find medical treatment they can't find here? Socialism is all about producing equality by taking things away from the fortunate -- folks who, for the most part, are fortunate because they or their parents worked hard and smart to earn. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
On Jul 26, 2009, at 9:06 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Germany uses less than 11% of GDP for health care, but it's better than in the US where it's well over 15% of GDP and rising fast. In Germany they will send you to a spa for a week if you convince the doctor that you are too stressed at work. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck...
Get an EFI-X card to handle multi-booting and enable installing of OS X too. Cool hardware. On Jul 27, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Marcio wrote: Time off to sudy this dual boot... I already have a boot C: and a Data D:... I am no sure if I can put a third HD and have he option to boot frm it... Computers are fun...up to a pont... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:08 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Why uniquely American, which is the term I keep hearing? That is a code word to assure insurance execs that they will still be able to get their $100,000,000 salaries. Just imagine how much money could be saved by merely sending a dozen of these robbers packing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Jul 28, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote: 5. Socialism? WTF; can't you do any better than that? Curiously, the same people who rail against fixing healthcare with weird tales of single payer systems will happily support the single- provider system when it comes to computer operating systems and software. Can somebody bring us back on topic and explain that to me? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
Likewise, in the Czech Republic - only for longer. There, families also have maternity leave that can last for a year, with return to one's job. Two years, but not to the same guaranteed position. --- On Tue, 7/28/09, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: From: TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 10:42 AM On Jul 26, 2009, at 9:06 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Germany uses less than 11% of GDP for health care, but it's better than in the US where it's well over 15% of GDP and rising fast. In Germany they will send you to a spa for a week if you convince the doctor that you are too stressed at work. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
For one who constantly rails against the MS monopoly, I am surprised that you advocate a monopoly on the buying side of health care (and a government monopoly at that). TPiwowar wrote: On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck...
very cool. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:46 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Get an EFI-X card to handle multi-booting and enable installing of OS X too. Cool hardware. On Jul 27, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Marcio wrote: Time off to sudy this dual boot... I already have a boot C: and a Data D:... I am no sure if I can put a third HD and have he option to boot frm it... Computers are fun...up to a pont... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I heard recently that the UK is banning certain drugs. In an environment such as that, who will create the wonder drugs of the future? On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:09 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Who is advocating that and what exactly does it mean? On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:02 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Curiously, the same people who rail against fixing healthcare with weird tales of single payer systems will happily support the single-provider system when it comes to computer operating systems and software. Can somebody bring us back on topic and explain that to me? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
The debate is, as usual, between those who do (at least a little) research to discern the facts and those who determine the situation without having any basis. That is the problem with American politics today. We need not even use any other example than our own country to determine how health care can be improved in America. That removes the differences between attitudes, incompetencies, and mores from the equation. Some of us are old enough to have fought the battle in 1976 to have the costs of dialysis treatment covered in the US. (Some of you may even recall the famous Life article depicting the life and death committees that determined who were entitled and who were refused the treatment.) The same BS complaints existed (from the same political spectrum). Yes, there is a problem- it only covers one disease. Yes, there is a problem, our government is so panicked that the practitioners will steal from the system that they spend almost $ 1 in oversight for every $ 1 in benefit. (THAT IS THE TRUE ISSUE THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED BY THE PROPOSED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM REFORM!). Yet, in some 30+ years, we have been able to treat Americans to about the best dialysis care found anywhere. And, it is a single payer- Medicare (once you have been on dialysis for about 9 months or so, no private health insurance is involved). And, it is multi-provider. Please study facts- not half-hearted (or fully bloviated) opinion pieces that have no clue how/why/where health care operates - here or elsewhere. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 07/28/2009 11:10 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I've wondered something along these lines...why are we creating yet another system when there are already half a dozen? Yet one more large bureaucracy when we should consolidate the others. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. acker...@astrecg.com wrote: The debate is, as usual, between those who do (at least a little) research to discern the facts and those who determine the situation without having any basis. That is the problem with American politics today. We need not even use any other example than our own country to determine how health care can be improved in America. That removes the differences between attitudes, incompetencies, and mores from the equation. Some of us are old enough to have fought the battle in 1976 to have the costs of dialysis treatment covered in the US. (Some of you may even recall the famous Life article depicting the life and death committees that determined who were entitled and who were refused the treatment.) The same BS complaints existed (from the same political spectrum). Yes, there is a problem- it only covers one disease. Yes, there is a problem, our government is so panicked that the practitioners will steal from the system that they spend almost $ 1 in oversight for every $ 1 in benefit. (THAT IS THE TRUE ISSUE THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED BY THE PROPOSED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM REFORM!). Yet, in some 30+ years, we have been able to treat Americans to about the best dialysis care found anywhere. And, it is a single payer- Medicare (once you have been on dialysis for about 9 months or so, no private health insurance is involved). And, it is multi-provider. Please study facts- not half-hearted (or fully bloviated) opinion pieces that have no clue how/why/where health care operates - here or elsewhere. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto: computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 07/28/2009 11:10 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
1. What Congress has: in point of fact, congresspersons and senators have the same choices of insurance that all federal employees have. My guess is that they mostly choose standard-option Blue Cross-Blue Shield--a popular choice among all federal employees. There is also a congressional doctor for congresspersons and senators, from whom they can get flu shots [and similar services] and who is the first responder if any legislator gets sick in the Capitol Building. 2. I wonder if most people realize what a very simple medical problem will do to their financial security. I'm an example: in January, I fell on the ice and broke my arm. Even though there were complications, and minor, routine surgery was required to fix things, the broken arm was a very minor problem that won't turn into an expensive chronic condition. I had to have physical therapy when the cast came off, so I could use my hand again; again, routine care. I had the bone set at the semi-public hospital where I had gotten good and inexpensive care when I sprained my wrist, six years ago. I went to the orthopedic practice they recommended for the follow-up care. In other words, a simple problem, easily fixed; and at moderately priced institutions. Here's the kicker: the broken arm cost MORE THAN I MADE last year. You don't need to feel sorry for me; just by a fluke, my husband picked exactly the right kind of insurance with the right clauses in the contract, and we only had to pay for pills, once the EXTREMELY high deductible had been met. The point is, this has nothing to do with how hard you or your parents worked; how diligently you take care of your health; how carefully you save for emergencies or retirement; or anything else. This is almost entirely a matter of luck. If you need medical care and don't have really good insurance, you are in BIG trouble. --Constance Warner * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
There are actually well more than half-dozen. And, that has no bearing on the real issues. In a nutshell, what the debate is about: 1. Terminating the use of paper (or non-existent) health care information. By making this information electronic, it can be transmitted from practitioner to practitioner, from one department to another, on an as-need, prior-approval basis. In addition, it will force insurers (I will name one BIG transgressor- Blue Cross/Blue Shield) to deal with electronic records, billing, and subsequent payment in a more uniform, time-sensitive fashion. It will also insure that the practitioners YOU have empowered have the salient information to make decisions that make sense based upon your needs. 2. Covering everyone means that unfunded liabilities don't get spread to everyone else. By requiring everyone to have insurance (just like auto insurance) means that there won't be an unfunded bill that gets spread to those of us that have payment capabilities to pick up the slack. a. As a corollary, it also means that hospitals and practitioners can't elect to charge you $ 400 for an emergency visit (which will now be truly an emergency, since non-emergencies will be sent to doc-in-the-box, regular practitioners, or precluded with preventive care- and not a sore throat for the uninsured or the unenlightened) or $ 100 for a 30 minute visit because they like your insurance and $ 12000 or $ 500 to me, respectively) because I am out-of-network or uninsured. [Yes, these numbers are real.] 3. Covering everyone means that the children of America can be treated as children, long before they develop diabetes or cardiac problems due to lack of care- and then escalate to dialysis that our government pay $ 35K a year for each soul. 4. Reform means that companies like United Medical, which imposed a 20% hike on its subscribers this year can't- because they had record profits. Obviously, this raise is due to greed and not costs. 5. Reform means that insurers like Blue Cross will not impose at 15% increase on small employers (5 to 15 subscribers) or 30% on teeny employers (2 to 5) because of the possible, extensive swings in the costs of providing care on a year-to-year basis. No other explanation or proof provided. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of mike Sent: 07/28/2009 12:03 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare I've wondered something along these lines...why are we creating yet another system when there are already half a dozen? Yet one more large bureaucracy when we should consolidate the others. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. acker...@astrecg.com wrote: The debate is, as usual, between those who do (at least a little) research to discern the facts and those who determine the situation without having any basis. That is the problem with American politics today. We need not even use any other example than our own country to determine how health care can be improved in America. That removes the differences between attitudes, incompetencies, and mores from the equation. Some of us are old enough to have fought the battle in 1976 to have the costs of dialysis treatment covered in the US. (Some of you may even recall the famous Life article depicting the life and death committees that determined who were entitled and who were refused the treatment.) The same BS complaints existed (from the same political spectrum). Yes, there is a problem- it only covers one disease. Yes, there is a problem, our government is so panicked that the practitioners will steal from the system that they spend almost $ 1 in oversight for every $ 1 in benefit. (THAT IS THE TRUE ISSUE THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED BY THE PROPOSED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM REFORM!). Yet, in some 30+ years, we have been able to treat Americans to about the best dialysis care found anywhere. And, it is a single payer- Medicare (once you have been on dialysis for about 9 months or so, no private health insurance is involved). And, it is multi-provider. Please study facts- not half-hearted (or fully bloviated) opinion pieces that have no clue how/why/where health care operates - here or elsewhere. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
The people in the rest of the world don't change their health care system because they are sheep. Ours is the best health care system in the world. Not perfect -- but we can't afford a perfect system. The U.S. does better than most other countries in most things. Many people come to the U.S. for medical treatment that they can't obtain in their own country. How many Americans leave the U.S. to find medical treatment they can't find here? Socialism is all about producing equality by taking things away from the fortunate -- folks who, for the most part, are fortunate because they or their parents worked hard and smart to earn. Consistently, year after year, the US doesn't have the best health care system. It has the 37th best system. France has consistently been first for a long time. Propaganda works. It makes you confuse the kind of health care available to those who can afford to pay a lot with the insurance system. Our insurance system is akin to highway robbery, except corporations profit more while those of us who pay for health insurance get terrible choices, and outrageously high charges from the insurance companies. The overcharges are not allowed in the countries that have better insurance systems because the payers negotiate costs before the insurees pay a penny. The governments work for the people, writing laws and regulations that provide good insurance, both public and private, in the countries where the insurance systems are for the people. In the US the government works for corporations, not the people. Don't let fear of socialism or social democracies, which are governments working for the people instead of corporations, scare you away from improving health care and reducing costs. The US is 37th! That's nothing to be proud of. Americans are the sheeple, not the Europeans. When we take back our government from the corporations, and remove corporate personhood, then we might creep up to being 20th or maybe 10th. With more people believing the corporate [insurance co., for-profit providers] disinformation as you do, it will be a long time for us to get into the top 10, if ever. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
So what does all this healthcare debate on The Computer Guys listserv have to do with computers? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Evil Apple...
...or ATT made them do it. Apple Blocking Google Voice App http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2350840,00.asp It is time for legislation to set our cell phones free. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:39 AM, mike wrote: I heard recently that the UK is banning certain drugs. In an environment such as that, who will create the wonder drugs of the future? And our FDA approves bunches of drugs that kill the patient. You prefer that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: For one who constantly rails against the MS monopoly, I am surprised that you advocate a monopoly on the buying side of health care (and a government monopoly at that). The government is not a monopoly. The government is the American people acting in concert for the common good. What have you got against Americans? What have you got against good? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
And when will that happen? It's not going to happen under the current administration. Unless we dump every member of congress and the senate and stop putting up with these idiots getting rich on our backs, nothing is going to change except for the worse. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:41 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: When we take back our government from the corporations, and remove corporate personhood, then we might creep up to being 20th or maybe 10th. With more people believing the corporate [insurance co., for-profit providers] disinformation as you do, it will be a long time for us to get into the top 10, if ever. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Right, your game playing continues no matter the subject. meh. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:53 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:39 AM, mike wrote: I heard recently that the UK is banning certain drugs. In an environment such as that, who will create the wonder drugs of the future? And our FDA approves bunches of drugs that kill the patient. You prefer that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Tourbus Rider Stuart Carlownoodni...@aol.com wrote: So what does all this healthcare debate on The Computer Guys listserv have to do with computers? I've got carpal tunnel syndrome from using my computer keyboard. I am not insured for this medical problem, and it is going to cost me over $9,500.00 for treatment. I think that is too much, don't you? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
Tourbus Rider Stuart Carlow wrote: So what does all this healthcare debate on The Computer Guys listserv have to do with computers? Uumm... if we didn't have to pay so much for healthcare, we could get better computers. Not to mention better food and other good stuff. Well, some of us could get better computers. I already have the best. Plus I grow most of my own food. Which I do research about with the computer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
We do not as much ban drugs, What we do is allow the drug companies and our insurance to ban them for us. Very often they just price the drug out of the market. I am not sure how many of you know this but over the past few years a number of readily available generic drugs have disappeared off the market. Because of rule changes or because the company manufacturing them could not get it perfect (and only the manufacturer can) they have been pulled. This raises the cost on pills once again and we see older medications gone to be replaced by higher priced newer ones. Stewart At 10:39 AM 7/28/2009, you wrote: I heard recently that the UK is banning certain drugs. In an environment such as that, who will create the wonder drugs of the future? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck...
If your machine will do that just install a bootable OS on the 2nd drive and use the menu Fred mentions to make the choice at boot time. db Fred Holmes wrote: At 11:42 AM 7/27/2009, Marcio wrote: Time off to sudy this dual boot... I already have a boot C: and a Data D:... I am no sure if I can put a third HD and have he option to boot frm it... Computers are fun...up to a pont... Marcio Modern computers have a boot menu built into the BIOS. On Dell computers it is generally pressing F12 that brings up the boot menu (a list of storage devices, for the user to select which one to boot from). There is generally a notification of this on the boot screen, along with the keypress to bring up the BIOS Setup routine. Of course, these notifications can be suppressed by a choice in the BIOS setup. The foregoing is totally separate from any multiple boot manager software that you may have installed on your default boot drive. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Health care debate
Look into Healtheon. Jeff M On Jul 28, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Tourbus Rider Stuart Carlow wrote: So what does all this healthcare debate on The Computer Guys listserv have to do with computers? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
TPiwowar wrote: On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Exactly! It's so bogus that certain interests are muddying the issue intentionally by implying that single payer means single provider. Single payer is just a simple efficient means of giving everyone choice ... a choice most don't have now. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. Because they are not trying to have a thoughtful discussion where the best idea wins but trying to win the debate in this country at all costs... even if that means by trickery etc... When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. When I hurt my back sailing in the South of France some years ago and could not stand up, a doctor made a house call to the boat at dockside on a Sunday, prescribed 5 days of bed rest and gave me a shot and two prescriptions to cover that period. No charge. I can't tell you how grateful I was. It would have been in a huge complicated and unnecessarily expensive problem otherwise. Their system was so direct, simple, common sensical and no big bureaucratic deal. Like medecine used to be here db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
It's not a monopoly ... just the opposite ... we have a defacto monopoly now. People who can't afford corporate type plans have nothing and run EVERYONE's bill thru the roof when they end up in emergency rooms or terminally dying etc. I think what most in the national argument want ... except for the radicals on either side... is just the option of a federal med insurance plan that people of modest means can pay into and get some relief. db Steve at Verizon wrote: For one who constantly rails against the MS monopoly, I am surprised that you advocate a monopoly on the buying side of health care (and a government monopoly at that). TPiwowar wrote: On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
That will probably some to pass, if we can get the basic coverage for all thingee going. Medical care for the country is a huge beast... better to bite off as much as we can digest at any one time. Even if we could vote to do it, we would be taking on a too huge logistical problem to try to redo existing systems that people are depending on for their lives in many cases... at the same time. No reason they couldn't be merged in the future when we are ready in good ways we can't even imagine now. db mike wrote: I've wondered something along these lines...why are we creating yet another system when there are already half a dozen? Yet one more large bureaucracy when we should consolidate the others. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. acker...@astrecg.com wrote: The debate is, as usual, between those who do (at least a little) research to discern the facts and those who determine the situation without having any basis. That is the problem with American politics today. We need not even use any other example than our own country to determine how health care can be improved in America. That removes the differences between attitudes, incompetencies, and mores from the equation. Some of us are old enough to have fought the battle in 1976 to have the costs of dialysis treatment covered in the US. (Some of you may even recall the famous Life article depicting the life and death committees that determined who were entitled and who were refused the treatment.) The same BS complaints existed (from the same political spectrum). Yes, there is a problem- it only covers one disease. Yes, there is a problem, our government is so panicked that the practitioners will steal from the system that they spend almost $ 1 in oversight for every $ 1 in benefit. (THAT IS THE TRUE ISSUE THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED BY THE PROPOSED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM REFORM!). Yet, in some 30+ years, we have been able to treat Americans to about the best dialysis care found anywhere. And, it is a single payer- Medicare (once you have been on dialysis for about 9 months or so, no private health insurance is involved). And, it is multi-provider. Please study facts- not half-hearted (or fully bloviated) opinion pieces that have no clue how/why/where health care operates - here or elsewhere. Eschew Obfuscation This is a reply from: Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. Financial, Managerial, and Technical Services for the Professional, Non-Profit, and the Entrepreneurial Organization 703.548.1343 voice 703.783.1340 fax From thinking to doing, from sales to profits, from tax to investments- we are YOUR adjuvancy -Original Message- From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto: computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On Behalf Of TPiwowar Sent: 07/28/2009 11:10 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
OHIP (Ontario health Insurance Plan) which is one of those government plans in Canada is not really much more than basic health insurance. When I lived up there I bought a supplement that would give me a few benefits, such as a prescription plan, semi-private room, prosthetics, and some similar stuff. OHIP covered basic doctor fees, hospitalization and similar stuff. (like lab etc.) I think once congress starts looking at what needs to be covered and what does not it might get easier. Stewart At 04:10 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: That will probably some to pass, if we can get the basic coverage for all thingee going. Medical care for the country is a huge beast... better to bite off as much as we can digest at any one time. Even if we could vote to do it, we would be taking on a too huge logistical problem to try to redo existing systems that people are depending on for their lives in many cases... at the same time. No reason they couldn't be merged in the future when we are ready in good ways we can't even imagine now. db Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I just want to say thanks to the powers that be on this list for allowing this discussion. How I ended up with having nearly all conservative friends is beyond me! Admittedly, I have not gone searching the web for health care discussions, but it is very refreshing to know that there are others in this world who think more along the lines that I do, concerning this topic. It seems to me if we take away the benefits for illegal aliens and clean up the welfare system, there would be little extra cost in giving all American citizens basic healthcare. I realize I'm opening a can of worms here, especially involving illegal aliens. I have no problem with them working here. I just don't think they should be entitled to the benefits of citizens. No green card, no cash, no health care. I also don't think they should pay income taxes. Nor should they be able to send their kids to our schools without paying tuition. They should be considered visitors. If they can't support themselves here, they should go home. The year my kids turned 16 and were eligible to take driver's ed in the summer, the local school district where our summer cottage is would not let them take driver's ed at that school (because we were only seasonal residents). We spent entire summers there. And of course, we paid full school taxes there! It doesn't seem like it takes a lot of common sense to figure out what's fair for everyone. The way it is right now, if the economy takes a downturn, and jobs are lost, so is the health care. To buy it privately is not even conceivable--especially when you have been laid off your job. These are the kinds of discrepancies that need to be ironed out, IMHO. Greed is what stands in the way. Several generations of welfare in a family, illegal aliens, the government collecting income taxes from illegals, insurance companies posting millions in profits--all of this is what's making the problem. I do believe the president sees things this way also, and this is what he's trying to do something about (although he's not quite as radical as I am about making the system fair). Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil Apple...
It is time for legislation to set our cell phones free. Just making cell phones free or independent of carriers likely won't really improve things. I point to the up and down ability of the Palm pre to masquerade as an IPOD with Itunes under windows and on the Mac as an example of what can be done even if phones could easily switch networks and carriers. I'm also cynical about the type of legislation offered when said leglslators are willing to allow RIAA suits to proceed with outrageous penalties for what amounts to a claim of copyright infringement and unlawful distribution. The legal penalties are actually less for photocopying a book and distributing said photocopy than downloading an MP3 and leaving it available to be distributed. Apple is demonstrating no more greed than other corporations who can assert control over what they have produced or offer for sale. Any day now I expect to see some OS asserting that users can't research how to utilize another OS with that OS as a condition of use in the United States. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Sue in a vast majority of cases they do pay taxes. I do not know of any employer here in America (legitimate) who does not withhold taxes out of paychecks, unless they consider the worker a contractor. Many (A good number) of south of the border people work in the food industry (Mainly animal processing) and to get hired they must show ID/SS cards etc. Even though these numbers may be bad (stolen, made up etc.) and have passed government scrutiny (Tysons runs them all before employment) they then withhold taxes under those numbers. It is only those illegals who are working for cash under the table that do not pay taxes. I think if you checked a statistical (non biased) examination of that argument it would proof moot, as for the number that pay into the system do not collect any benefits out of the system. My knowledge of this comes from working with them for a time and observing their process. Stewart At 04:30 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: I just want to say thanks to the powers that be on this list for allowing this discussion. How I ended up with having nearly all conservative friends is beyond me! Admittedly, I have not gone searching the web for health care discussions, but it is very refreshing to know that there are others in this world who think more along the lines that I do, concerning this topic. It seems to me if we take away the benefits for illegal aliens and clean up the welfare system, there would be little extra cost in giving all American citizens basic healthcare. I realize I'm opening a can of worms here, especially involving illegal aliens. I have no problem with them working here. I just don't think they should be entitled to the benefits of citizens. No green card, no cash, no health care. I also don't think they should pay income taxes. Nor should they be able to send their kids to our schools without paying tuition. They should be considered visitors. If they can't support themselves here, they should go home. The year my kids turned 16 and were eligible to take driver's ed in the summer, the local school district where our summer cottage is would not let them take driver's ed at that school (because we were only seasonal residents). We spent entire summers there. And of course, we paid full school taxes there! It doesn't seem like it takes a lot of common sense to figure out what's fair for everyone. The way it is right now, if the economy takes a downturn, and jobs are lost, so is the health care. To buy it privately is not even conceivable--especially when you have been laid off your job. These are the kinds of discrepancies that need to be ironed out, IMHO. Greed is what stands in the way. Several generations of welfare in a family, illegal aliens, the government collecting income taxes from illegals, insurance companies posting millions in profits--all of this is what's making the problem. I do believe the president sees things this way also, and this is what he's trying to do something about (although he's not quite as radical as I am about making the system fair). Sue Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil Apple...
Just a correction here., The Palm Pre does not run Windows. It runs the newest Palm Software. Stewart At 04:53 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: Just making cell phones free or independent of carriers likely won't really improve things. I point to the up and down ability of the Palm pre to masquerade as an IPOD with Itunes under windows and on the Mac as an example of what can be done even if phones could easily switch networks and carriers. I'm also cynical about the type of legislation offered when said leglslators are willing to allow RIAA suits to proceed with outrageous penalties for what amounts to a claim of copyright infringement and unlawful distribution. The legal penalties are actually less for photocopying a book and distributing said photocopy than downloading an MP3 and leaving it available to be distributed. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
At 04:49 PM 7/28/2009 -0500, you wrote: Sue in a vast majority of cases they do pay taxes. I do not know of any employer here in America (legitimate) who does not withhold taxes out of paychecks, unless they consider the worker a contractor. Many (A good number) of south of the border people work in the food industry (Mainly animal processing) and to get hired they must show ID/SS cards etc. Even though these numbers may be bad (stolen, made up etc.) and have passed government scrutiny (Tysons runs them all before employment) they then withhold taxes under those numbers. It is only those illegals who are working for cash under the table that do not pay taxes. I think if you checked a statistical (non biased) examination of that argument it would proof moot, as for the number that pay into the system do not collect any benefits out of the system. My knowledge of this comes from working with them for a time and observing their process. Stewart My point exactly. If they are not citizens, they should not pay taxes. Nor should they claim the benefits of citizenship. Let them work here, but pay their own way. How much more fair can you get? In many countries, you cannot own property without being a citizen. I see no problem with that either. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I didn't say the government is a monopoly; I said that a single-payer is a monopoly. Actually there is a new term for a buyer monopoly and that is a monopsony. The federal government can and has exerted monopoly powers. Armies and delivery of First Class Mail are two examples. Single-payer would be another, and, from your response, one of which you approve. And lest you continue quibbling about the word monopoly, the effect would be the same. A seller monopolist says You can't buy my product from anyone else, so here is my price, take it or leave it. A buyer monopolist says You can't sell your product to anyone else, so here is my offer, take it or leave it. In fact, this latter feature of single-payer is a major method of controlling health costs. The question is if the government can hit the sweet spot on the prices they set; low enough to save money, but not so low as to drive providers out of business. I'm in the camp that multiple sellers and buyers in a market is the best way to determine prices. TPiwowar wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: For one who constantly rails against the MS monopoly, I am surprised that you advocate a monopoly on the buying side of health care (and a government monopoly at that). The government is not a monopoly. The government is the American people acting in concert for the common good. What have you got against Americans? What have you got against good? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil Apple...
One more correction. He said the palm looks like an ipod under windows and macos. Sent from my iPod On Jul 28, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: Just a correction here., The Palm Pre does not run Windows. It runs the newest Palm Software. Stewart At 04:53 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: Just making cell phones free or independent of carriers likely won't really improve things. I point to the up and down ability of the Palm pre to masquerade as an IPOD with Itunes under windows and on the Mac as an example of what can be done even if phones could easily switch networks and carriers. I'm also cynical about the type of legislation offered when said leglslators are willing to allow RIAA suits to proceed with outrageous penalties for what amounts to a claim of copyright infringement and unlawful distribution. The legal penalties are actually less for photocopying a book and distributing said photocopy than downloading an MP3 and leaving it available to be distributed. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 *** ** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** *** ** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
Hi Kate - Health care has become such a heated topic that it has even taken over my computer talk group (see below) . I've told you about our experience with health care in England . France seems to have the best system in the world (but you know that the French are crazy -) . See below : When I broke my eyeglasses in London When I hurt my back sailing in the South of France When you go to a doctor in an emergency in England ( France , etc.) nobody asks if you're an American . They treat folks as people who need health care . No questions about whether you have money or insurance . They just take care of you , who ever you are , where ever you came from . No billing follows . If I didn't have so many responsibilities in the USA I'd retire to the UK in a minute ! Dad db wrote: TPiwowar wrote: On Jul 26, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Absolutely wrong. There must always be choices. The customer must always have somewhere else to go when the service he is currently receiving is unsatisfactory. Single payer is tyranny. Single-payer systems typically include the opportunity for paying for care privately. Single-payer does not mean single provider. Exactly! It's so bogus that certain interests are muddying the issue intentionally by implying that single payer means single provider. Single payer is just a simple efficient means of giving everyone choice ... a choice most don't have now. Why do the cons/neocons keep dragging in irrelevant boogeymen? It does not help the discussion. Because they are not trying to have a thoughtful discussion where the best idea wins but trying to win the debate in this country at all costs... even if that means by trickery etc... When I broke my eyeglasses in London, even though I was an American, I was offered National Health glasses or I could get a swanky pair. I had the means to get a swanky pair so I did. I was also grateful to have the choice of a pair for almost nothing should I have been in poorer financial circumstances. When I hurt my back sailing in the South of France some years ago and could not stand up, a doctor made a house call to the boat at dockside on a Sunday, prescribed 5 days of bed rest and gave me a shot and two prescriptions to cover that period. No charge. I can't tell you how grateful I was. It would have been in a huge complicated and unnecessarily expensive problem otherwise. Their system was so direct, simple, common sensical and no big bureaucratic deal. Like medecine used to be here db * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.34/2268 - Release Date: 07/28/09 06:00:00 -- We can't all , and some of us don't - Eeyore * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Lighten the mood
Murphy's Laws of Computing 1. When computing, whatever happens, behave as though you meant it to happen. 2. When you get to the point where you really understand your computer, it's probably obsolete. 3. The first place to look for information is in the section of the manual where you'd least expect to find it. 4. When the going gets tough, upgrade. 5. For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Healthcare
I strongly object to paragraphs five and seven of your posting, and in particular, to your use of highly objectionable terms and comparisons. -Andy Gallant John covici wrote: To fix the health care system, you need to do three simple things: (1) Repeal the 1973 legislation legalizing hmos. This will get the thieves out of the way so we can have health care, not some kind of profit center!! (2) get back to the Hill Burton legislation, first passed in 1946 which mandates construction of enough hospitals in each county, so there are a certain number of beds (around 4.5) per 10 population, if memory serves. Not much use in having coverage if there is no place to go. (3) A single payer system which has much lower administrative costs. This scheme will only work properly if we take back all the bailout money which has been stolen and restart the physical economy. Obama's health reform is an exact copy of Hitler's t-4 program where he stated that lives not worth of life should be given a mercy death. There is a very nice pamphlet which explains this more fully at http://www.larouchepac.com/files/media/Act_NowPOST.pdf so download that. No Nazi health care program in America!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
