Re: [crossfire] shops and stealing
hv: remeber, each server has diffrent rules. PKing and abusive behavior is 100% happy-good on Cat2 while it is outlawed on MF. Hardcoding jail for such things would be bad. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : For a long time, the thief skill stealing has been available, but the only use :was the limited ability to steal from monsters. : : With the addition of new fields in the map header for shops, it'd seem like it :would not be possible to extend stealing to shops. Not that the current headers :are really in any way useful, but in a sense, because they sort of give an :example of extending the shop attributes. : : What I'd suggest then is fields like: : :steal_adjustment: Represents how hard/easy it is to steal from this shop. A :positive value denotes it is easy, negative value means it is hard. : :max_steal_value: Maximum value of an object that can be stolen from this store. : Thus, if someone drops a 10,000 pp item in a shop easy to steal from (which :normally has junky stuff), one wouldn't be able to steal it, because this value :for the shop may be something like 10 pp. Maybe shops should refuse to buy such expensive items from players if they don't have the facilities to display them securely, or they should buy and immediately sell on to the nearest shop that does. :jail_map: If the theif is caught, map where they are sent. At least scorn has :a jail if I recall - not sure if other maps. But basically, get caught :stealing, have to sit around for 5 (or more) minutes. Easier shops would :probably sentence you to less time. This could be in the form of [EMAIL PROTECTED],y :to denote coordinates to put the player into. I don't like the idea of automatic jail time - keep that for things that you *don't* want players to do, like pking and abusive behaviour. For game balance, I think it'd be enough to ban a thief from the local shops for a period of time (maybe around constant * (1 + log_2(item_value)) ticks). If more is needed, the shop keeper should call the guards - no loot, no exp, and guaranteed to be higher level than you. But I don't think it is needed. The rest sounds good to me. Hugo ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Who said jade and amberonium coins would be in any duengons? I am not putting them as treasures in my maps atleast (and does anyone else map anymore besides me?). As for we have gems/this/that which can be used instead it's nice to have multiple ways to do things. The role of jade etc IMHO, since I'm not going to put them in my duengons as treasure (and hopefully others won't either) is to beable to have 10,000 dollar notes kindof thing. All apprasals etc should be in silver, gold, plat and never jade and amber. I suggest an addum to the mappers handbook don't put jade and amber coins in you duengons as rewards. Then will come the question why have them then! Well then why have most of the things we have in CF? We could probably chuck most of our archtypes.. why even have CF? CF isn't needed in the world etc. I'd also like copper coins, this will require value to have decemal points. Could we do that? --- Rick Tanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Post on behalf of Todd Mitchell (Avion): The Imperial Banking system was not intended to be a modern bank, more of an old fashioned type bank. The Imperial Note is not money, it is a credit note. Basically it was to allow players to carry and transfer large amounts of wealth between cities or as a way to pay for large ticket items (such as guilds) while avoiding inflation of value that large coins would bring. The coin system is based on weight and this is a good thing that limits the amount of treasure folks can carry. Because they are low weight and easy to carry, the Imperial notes are not supposed to be worth anything intrinsically and cannot be used as money, but can be used to transfer large sums of money (and always for a convenience fee). All this talk of large denomination coins seems to be to me misplaced since the point of the coins is to limit what can be hauled out of dungeons easily and limit wealth accumulation. Large coins will lead to inflation as they allow players to carry more cash on hand. As for 'credit cards' and other stuff to pay for big purchases? - why bother when you can easily make special altars (or use scripting) for expensive things that accept Imperial notes. They are already credit notes. Allowing their use as *money* however would simply make them into large coins and defeat their purpose. Also the bank code was designed to allow for alternate credit institutions and easily changable service fees. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Checkbook arch committed. There is also a bankcard arch. --- Rick Tanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ERACC wrote: That is why I suggested a bank card that debits the bank account rather than a credit card. I don't think CF should implement a credit system. I see ways to exploit /that/ right now. Hmm.. I thought the discussion all along was for some sort of debit/check/cheque card that automatically deducts the money from your bank account *assuming* you have enough cash in there to cover the purchase. Otherwise you see some sort of message showing how much more money you need to make the purchase. I agree, I think it's a bad idea for a credit card or making purchases without cold hard cash to back it up. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDsbmDhHyvgBp+vH4RAqqqAKDNYdG9Psbcuw2XfLmwSujwwRon/wCg7O68 Y0Soiyofjh3eTWQ1wdnhcZ0= =zXPP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: [Crossfire-devel] I'll commit the large denomination coin archtypes, I'd like to edit the amber coin to look more ambery (any objections)?
I agree with Eracc, this is something I've wanted too. Could you also make hp and maxhp a 32 bit int aswell? --- Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ERACC wrote: While you guys are looking at stuff like this could you please adjust the payment altars to accept more than 32767? I wanted to use a 5 diamond altar in my Lone Town apartment map (for the various alchemy benches in the basement) but could not due to this limitation. The problem is that converters use sp and food as the number to use/create, and these values are 16 bit right now. It's simple enough to change the type to be 32 bit - I'm just not sure what other side effects that might cause. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: I'll commit the large denomination coin archtypes, I'd like to edit the amber coin to look more ambery (any objections)?
the coin money will still exist, right? --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/31/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not until relative recent history did paper money really become popular. That said, if currency is changed, I'd suggest unique graphics (that are clearly distinguishable) are probably desired - having bunches of coins in my inventory that all look the same would be confusing/annoying, and remove some of the reason for doing this, which is to add character. This would also have to affect character generation, currently players that are generated get an amount of money when they choose a class, and before they exit the nexus. If the two destinations from the nexus have differing currencies, then the player could get the 'wrong' type. Moving the acquisition of money to the teleporters which the player stepped on might work, but since dead players return there until they get another savebed, this might be hard to guarentee to not be exploitable (at the least, every existing player who didn't set a savebed, would get some money next time they died). Making those teleporters damned could work, indeed, if they pointed to a relatively 'safe' place (scorn town hall maybe?) it might be considered a good thing anyway. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
I think you should have to go to the bank to convert coins to other currencies etc. If people don't want to bother with money they can use the checkbook and have to put up with the small % fees. --- Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point about dropping money in the shop is more a convenience thing, not realism (using the 'r' word with crossfire is never a good idea). But my general thought is that if a bankkeeper is willing to accept usage of the check card (or whatever its called), it just makes it easier for players so they don't have to run to the bank every time they want to get rid of their coins. That's not one of the things I really like in real life, so could do without it in a game. As far as check books, various thoughts: 1) the bank itself could charge some fee (fixed percentage) of the money being deposited. After all, they are taking all those coins and storing them away. Number should probably be relatively low. 2) Shops could add some surcharge if using such a card. Perhaps make this a map property. Arguably, the bigger the purchase, the smaller (percentage wise) this charge would be. If you're buying something for 4 gp, its a bit of a bother for the shopkeeper to take that check and get the money. If you're spending 50,000 pp, the shop keeper would probably prefer that money get transferred directly to their bank account - they don't want 5 tons of platinum. If one was going to be more realistic, there really should be regional banks (scorn bank, navar city bank, etc), and you'd need to use the appropriate check book in the appropriate city (or the shops should demand a lot more money for using accounts of a foreign nature). Or perhaps the at the bank itself, you could transfer money, but with a fairly hefty fee (have to use magic after all to really confirm there is the money in that remote account, etc). But that really just makes things more a bother for the player. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] shops and stealing
Could exponetially vs linerally be settable in the server config file. --- ERACC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 31 December 2005 12:02 am Mark Wedel wrote: [...] With the addition of new fields in the map header for shops, it'd seem like it would not be possible to extend stealing to shops. [...] Good ideas there. I would add that a player's luck score should have a lot of influence on ability to steal from a shop. So, a player that wants to PK /and/ steal is truly out of luck and will have a much more difficult time stealing from a shop. A 'luck 0' score would mean luck has no affect on the percentage chance of getting caught. A luck score of +1 or greater means the player has an exponentially greater chance of stealing successfully. A luck score of -1 or lower greatly increases the player's chance of being caught exponentially as the score goes down. So, someone with 2 PKs (luck -2) would have a much harder time stealing than someone with a luck of 0. Gene -- Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Official) for i586 18:27:34 up 16 days, 1:34, 10 users, load average: 0.20, 0.08, 0.02 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eComStation, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer UnixWare resellers ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: I'll commit the large denomination coin archtypes, I'd like to edit the amber coin to look more ambery (any objections)?
On 12/31/05, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While regional currencies exchange values could change depending on factors that are not in the game yet the silver, plat, gold, jade, and amberonium coins should keep their absolute value forever. Actually, something I think might be interesting would be to have major and minor currencies. Consider the (pre-decimalisation) British Currency. Prices were given in pounds, shillings and pence, 12 p made one shilling, and 20 shillings one pound There was a one penny coin, a one shilling coin, and a one pound note. In principle it was possible to use these, and only these, for purchasing items. However, there were a number of other coins of intermediate values which were extensively used to make up intermediate values, without prices being quoted in them. (note that I am referencing old British currancy, simply because there were so many coins of arbitrary values that were issued - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_coinage#Denominations_of_pre-decimal_coins_and_their_years_of_production looks to be a fairly good list). Now, what I am wondering, is if the coins with which shops make change couldn't be the thing that varied, so that money would be taken from one of 12 or so different types of coins, and change given in a similar manner (to take an example from the above list, an item which would require 50 shillings (gold) change might cause it to be given in the form of two unites and a half unite in one place, but one two guinea coin and two double florins somewhere else. These could all be legal tender everywhere, whilst causing a player who would travel in certain areas of the world to have different types of coins to someone else elsewhere. A modern form of this can be seen to a lesser extent with the euro coins and notes, whilst they lack the amusingly contradictory values, they have different designs on the reverse depending on which country they are from, so that a coin with a design from a country relatively far away is a mild curiosity on the occasions they are encountered. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: I'll commit the large denomination coin archtypes, I'd like to edit the amber coin to look more ambery (any objections)?
If we are to do this it should be in addition to the current (blank) coins. --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/31/05, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While regional currencies exchange values could change depending on factors that are not in the game yet the silver, plat, gold, jade, and amberonium coins should keep their absolute value forever. Actually, something I think might be interesting would be to have major and minor currencies. Consider the (pre-decimalisation) British Currency. Prices were given in pounds, shillings and pence, 12 p made one shilling, and 20 shillings one pound There was a one penny coin, a one shilling coin, and a one pound note. In principle it was possible to use these, and only these, for purchasing items. However, there were a number of other coins of intermediate values which were extensively used to make up intermediate values, without prices being quoted in them. (note that I am referencing old British currancy, simply because there were so many coins of arbitrary values that were issued - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_coinage#Denominations_of_pre-decimal_coins_and_their_years_of_production looks to be a fairly good list). Now, what I am wondering, is if the coins with which shops make change couldn't be the thing that varied, so that money would be taken from one of 12 or so different types of coins, and change given in a similar manner (to take an example from the above list, an item which would require 50 shillings (gold) change might cause it to be given in the form of two unites and a half unite in one place, but one two guinea coin and two double florins somewhere else. These could all be legal tender everywhere, whilst causing a player who would travel in certain areas of the world to have different types of coins to someone else elsewhere. A modern form of this can be seen to a lesser extent with the euro coins and notes, whilst they lack the amusingly contradictory values, they have different designs on the reverse depending on which country they are from, so that a coin with a design from a country relatively far away is a mild curiosity on the occasions they are encountered. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] shops and stealing
Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: I like the idea (note it shouldn't be that a lvl 115 player can usually steal an artifact item (or something of similar value) from a shop, that should still be ultra hard). But this is also where the max steal value comes in. Unless there are shops which let the players steal 100,000 pp items, this never really becomes an issue. While theoretically possible to make the formula something settable in a config file, I think it'd be more likely that certain parameters are set that way (base chance, difficulty increase, etc). Note also of course that your steal chance is based on your exp in the stealing skill. I'd imagine getting really high levels would be relatively difficult/time consuming. As far as punishments: Being banned from stores (for some time) is an interesting idea. Certainly, the shop maps could be set up to not allowed players that are banned from going into the store. And a force could be used to denote that the person is banned (ideally, they should just be banned in that region - navar isn't really going to know what happened in scorn). In fact, this force could be used to record number of times caught, with each time they have been caught decreasing the odds - a known thief is going to be watched pretty carefully after all. So even if the player isn't banned from the store, may still have a very hard time stealing. It could be interesting to tie this to the idea of reputation that has been bandied about before also. A known thief probably won't get as good prices selling stuff and pay more for buying stuff. This could be an incentive for that player to go out to another town where he isn't known. Perhaps tracking successes (or amount successfully stolen) could be interesting - a character could then become (in)famous as the legendary thief or something also. If we actually had a thieves guild, such status could be a requirement to get access to certain parts of it. Punishment in coins could be done. But then I suppose the players would decide on that tradeoff - if they don't want to loose money, they'd just drop what money they have in their apartment and then steal, risking the jail time. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: I suggest an addum to the mappers handbook don't put jade and amber coins in you duengons as rewards. Then will come the question why have them then! Well then why have most of the things we have in CF? We could probably chuck most of our archtypes.. why even have CF? CF isn't needed in the world etc. Updating the map guide could be done. I just wonder how many people read it :). That said, the map check scripts could be modified to look for unauthorized arches also - some cases may be acceptable, but noting that jade coin appears in map xyz coudl still be useful. I'd also like copper coins, this will require value to have decemal points. Could we do that? IMO, no. There will always need to be a minimum value, and keeping that minimum 1 to me makes perfect sense. Adding decimalization adds a fair amount of complication, and as is, a value 1 object really isn't worth anything. I'd much rather go the approach of revalueing the existing money. Make the new copper coin worth 1. Make silver coins worth 5. If gold (10) and platinum (50) coins keep the same value, such a change in valuation isn't likely to affect things very much (unless players make huge piles of silver to anticipate that change). Or perhaps one that seems like more a hack but wouldn't have that problem - create 'new' coin - new copper, new silver, new gold, new platinum, etc coins as new archetypes. Put whatever valuation you want in them. Update treasure lists (and perhaps maps, but I'm not sure how many maps actually have coins piled on them) Maybe change the existing coins to be 'old' coins or 'ancient' coins. Thus, all new coinage that shows up should be these new coins with new valuation. However, those old coins still exist and can still be used with no inflation in value, so a player that has stockpiled piles of them doesn't get anything more from them (and if they find them in maps or something, not a big deal - old coins sitting in a dungeon wouldn't be that odd). I say all this because, as I've said before, at some level, you need a minimum value on objects. You can't use floats to store value because the precision for high/low values isn't there, and you'll get into all sorts of errors. So the only way to do this is what Brendan (I think it was) described, which is to multiply and divide internally. But even then, you are still stuck with some minimum, based on the multiply/divide values that are set up (if for example it is 100, then your minimum value is .01 - anything less is lost). But really, it comes down to the fact (to me) that a value 1 object is pretty nearly worthless, and I can't see need to have stuff worth less than that. So this really becomes a matter of a new coin standard, and that can be done with just archetype changes, which to me seems like the much better way to go. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] shops and stealing
On Saturday 31 December 2005 08:00 pm Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: --- ERACC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 31 December 2005 12:02 am Mark Wedel wrote: [...] With the addition of new fields in the map header for shops, it'd seem like it would not be possible to extend stealing to shops. [...] Good ideas there. I would add that a player's luck score should have a lot of influence on ability to steal from a shop. So, a player that wants to PK /and/ steal is truly out of luck and will have a much more difficult time stealing from a shop. A 'luck 0' score would mean luck has no affect on the percentage chance of getting caught. A luck score of +1 or greater means the player has an exponentially greater [...] Could exponetially vs linerally be settable in the server config file. Making this server configurable would be good I think. Not everyone desires to have all the features be a hard-coded non-option. Gene -- Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Official) for i586 17:28:52 up 17 days, 35 min, 10 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eComStation, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer UnixWare resellers ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
