[css-d] and background image without border in IE

[Martin Petrov]

I guess my question's been asked many times. I'm wondering if anybody
knows  how to remove the border that Internet Explorer shows when
using a background image with the hr element.

Thanks
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[css-d] tables VS divs

[shlomi asaf]

HI Guys
I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
im trying to figure what is the "golden path"

Sometimes div's seems to be overkilling achievement when I'm working
with a layout of 3 standing columns and one should relate to his
brother height

Even though div's are so functional/modular compare to tables layout, I
don't want myself to do everything in the sake of "i have to build my
site using only div's, because its what everybody does, so probably
there's a good reason for that"

I want to use the right technique in the right situation
Tables are so easy to maintain a steady structure, the left column is
relative to his right brother, they inherit each other dimensions and i
don't have to kill myself with html/css hacks to achieve repeating
BG_image in one column.

i built few suites using only div's, it gave me a headache, and when im
looking back, i see that i tried so much to be a div-site-builder, that
i forgot not to loose time in the way, and i forgot to question each
situation and figure what is the best way to dill with.

but im sure that im probably in my first few steps in my journey, and i
still need to learn the tricks, but it seems that to much energy is
waist instead of using what is simple and time saving in each specific
situation.

im sorry i dont bring up a discusion on a spacific example. i want
really to discuss to ideal/easy and energy saving way to built a web
site.

thanks a lot
NeoSwf
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Re: [css-d] tables VS divs

[Kristina Floyd]

shlomi asaf wrote:

I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
im trying to figure what is the "golden path"


Hi

IMHO it shouldn't be a tables Vs divs argument - because both have their 
place when correctly marked up.  It should be a "tables for formatting" 
Vs CSS argument.  Plus divs can be just as overused (I'm just as guilty 
of that).


CSS will make your sites much easier to maintain in the future, if they 
are marked up correctly you will still be able to use the site even if 
your stylesheet fails.  (Or more to the point your visitor decides they 
want to turn it off, or apply their own styling).


The thing that is important is that you shouldn't force your website to 
be viewed a certain way.  Which a table formatted design will try to do 
and will also be more difficult to use on different platforms.


I totally understand what you mean about table formatted design being 
easier to create.


But just try a little test - try navigating around your site using 
nothing but the keyboard, try it on other sites too - ones that are CSS 
driven and ones that are table driven.  See how you get on.  Now turn 
off the CSS and images - are those sites still usable/accessible?  Are 
your sites still usable/accessible?  Which in your opinion came out 
best?  They might not look as pretty - but when it comes down to it - 
people want to access and use the information.


My 2p

;o)

hth
Kristina
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Re: [css-d] tables VS divs

[shlomi asaf]

*hey guys*
thanks so much for your replies

*cristina*, have u found your css fails? mine never fall down.
ill read more in details your email, later on- promise :)

*dwain, **cristina, *look at this example, plz enlighten my eyes if im doing
something wrong.
 http://www.shlomiasaf.com/CSS/nav/horizontal_NAV_BAR.htm
look at the source, it based on eric mayers listematic
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal04.htm
 using table for this example, i would have done that in no time. i would
have got vertical-align easly, td-box hieght and it was so easy to acvhive
that goal in few secs and less code/css
 but here i broke my soul to achive this goal. i had to use 2 styles for the
same nav. i had to define DIV style, and A style. its so complecated for no
reason.
  cheers for any sugestions.
 Shlomi


On 9/22/05, dwain alford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> shlomi asaf wrote:
> > HI Guys
> > I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
> > im trying to figure what is the "golden path"
>
> in short, tables should be used for tabular data and divs are used as
> containers for positioning. as you work with (x)html and css rather
> than tables you will find that this is less code heavy than tables. in
> the beginning there can be much frustration in positioning elements, but
> when you begin to understand what you can do with html/css pages, quite
> frankly, you will not want to go back to using tables for layout.
>
> i have been using html/css for layout for just over a year, and i don't
> think that i could do a table layout if my mother's life depended on it.
> there is more freedom in using html/css based layout over table layouts.
>
> sure, tables are quicker to layout, especially if you are a wysiwyger,
> but i've been hand coding for just over a year, and i don't even
> consider wysiwyg as an option any more.
>
> there was an advertisement long ago that espoused, "try it you'll like
> it!" html/css based layouts appear to be more standards compliant than
> table layouts (imo).
>
> hth,
> dwain
>
>
> --
> dwain alford
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
>
> The Savior replied;
> "There is no such thing as sin;..."
> 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
>
=
 shlomi asaf wrote:
> I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
> im trying to figure what is the "golden path"

Hi

IMHO it shouldn't be a tables Vs divs argument - because both have their
place when correctly marked up. It should be a "tables for formatting"
Vs CSS argument. Plus divs can be just as overused (I'm just as guilty
of that).

CSS will make your sites much easier to maintain in the future, if they
are marked up correctly you will still be able to use the site even if
your stylesheet fails. (Or more to the point your visitor decides they
want to turn it off, or apply their own styling).

The thing that is important is that you shouldn't force your website to
be viewed a certain way. Which a table formatted design will try to do
and will also be more difficult to use on different platforms.

I totally understand what you mean about table formatted design being
easier to create.

But just try a little test - try navigating around your site using
nothing but the keyboard, try it on other sites too - ones that are CSS
driven and ones that are table driven. See how you get on. Now turn
off the CSS and images - are those sites still usable/accessible? Are
your sites still usable/accessible? Which in your opinion came out
best? They might not look as pretty - but when it comes down to it -
people want to access and use the information.

My 2p

;o)

hth
Kristina
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Re: [css-d] Centering a CSS List

[Bob Easton]

Greg Farries wrote:

I'm having some problems with a CSS styled list.  I am using the css
list as a navigation menu, and I've picked the code up from Listamatic
[http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal26.htm].

You can see what I've got so far here:
http://www.vauxhallbaseball.com/index-1.html

1) How do I center the CSS list on the page? 


2) Any ideas on how I could add a border to the right-hand side of the
list (similar to the border that is on the left)? 


1) The usual method for centering is "auto" for left and right margins.
#navcontainer {margin-left:auto; margin-right:auto;}
See also our WIKI page on centering (a)

2) Looks like you'll need an extra style on the last list item. Like this:
HTML
Contact Us
CSS
#navcontainer a.last {border-right: 1px solid #A8B090;}

(a) http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement

--
Bob Easton
Accessibility Matters: http://access-matters.com

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Re: [css-d] How big is too big?

[Bob Easton]

Tim Zappe wrote:

How big is too big?

   - What is a good rule of thumb for a CSS file size?
   - How big should all of the images used by your stylesheet be? --
   Total
   - What is a good size for a typical web page? -- I remember hearing
   60-80k, but that seems like we should be able to go bigger by nowI just
   don't know how big.
- What screen resolution should we cater to? -- I noticed that A List
   Apart(www.alistapart.com ) is now catering
   to 1024x1280 instead of 600x800 is this something that we can start moving
   our industry to, or is it still too early? If it is too early, when can we
   expect this change?
   - What are the appropriate sizes and techniques -- for CSS -- to mange
   users on mobile devices? -- PDASs, Phones, ect.



Too many questions in one post, and actually too many to answer in a day 
of reading and typing. Only the first and last are CSS topics that apply 
to this list.  The others might be better answered on other lists.  See 
our off-topic page in the CSS-discuss WIKI for where to find those 
lists. (1) Some of these other questions have no easy answers and are 
sometimes discussed on web developer's blogs.  Start subscribing to 
those blogs to  keep up with what they are thinking.  I'll add a 
CSS-discuss WIKI page shortly to start building a list of blogs and 
feeds.  Look for it soon. (3)


For your first question, the answer is in the concept of separating 
presentation from content. Remove all of the presentation markup from 
the HTML.  Learn to use CSS in wasys that are efficient, such as 
understanding selectors well enough to miminize "divitus." (Divitus is 
the excessinve ues of DIVs, something that's all too easy to do when 
coming from a history of using tables for layout.) Then, develop the 
style sheets to apply the desired presentation characteristics.  They 
will be long and complex if the design is complex, smaller if the design 
is smaller. ... and smaller yet as you learn to optimize CSS coding. 
There is no rule of thumb, other than a variation of an old Einstein 
chestnut: "Make your CSS as complicated as needed, but no more."


For the last question, there are not a lot of good sources.  One is 
because the browsers in small devices are still rather primative and 
designers dislike thingking about them.  Second, (I think) the market 
hasn't yet demanded we cater to those devices.  I expect it will 
someday, when available bandwidth is ubiquitous. One good strategy is to 
offer an alternative style sheet that serializes the page into a layout 
that is not width or size sensitive.  This is Joe Clark's "Zoom" 
technique, originally designed to help people with low vision, who zoom 
the magnification of pages. (2)



(1) http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=OffTopic
(2) http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision
(3) http://css-discuss.incutio.com/page?=DesignerDeveloperBlogs

--
Bob Easton
Accessibility Matters: http://access-matters.com

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[css-d] automated response

[Chris McCreery]

I will be away on vacation September 22nd and returning October 3rd. If you 
require assistance please contact Amanda Street-Bishop - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you,
Chris McCreery
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[css-d] Site check and Mac help please

[Gunther Pilz]

Hello list!

I have worked over my layout and tested it with a trial account at 
browsercam.

So I think (hope) that it should be alright in all major browsers.

There are two candidates, which make some problems.
One is Mac IE 5.2 (already had a version which worked, but can't get it 
fixed) where the side-col flows down beneath the main-col.

The other is NS 6.2 (all OS) where the top menu comes down to the header.

It would be very kind from you, if you could test the side
- with Javascript enabled/ disabled
- with different viewport sizes
- with different font-sizes/ text zoom (by browser)

Here's the Link to my page: http://top-topics.com/test-temp/index.html

Further informations are on the site.

Thanks a lot!
Greetings Gunther

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Re: [css-d] Site Check Please - Voices of CSM

[Felix Miata]

Juanita wrote:
 
> If anyone has a moment and can check out my site (this is my first all CSS
> site) - it seems to be okay in IE6, FF, Opera & NN7, but I'm not sure
> about other browsers or Mac.
 
> I imported the stylesheet so as not to break in NN4, but haven't done a
> more basic stylesheet for it yet.
 
> The site is:
> http://www.kcsm.org/voicesofcsm.htm
 
> the CSS is:
> http://www.kcsm.org/catalog/voicesofcsm/voices.css

It's wonderful to see my text size preference there. :-) The problem is,
your 699px wide #wrapper constraint doesn't permit it as much space as
it requires: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/kcsm1.png
-- 
"Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you."
Psalm 55:22 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** Rotary ONLY since 1973

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/ <- More than just a FAQ

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Re: [css-d] tables VS divs

[Christian Montoya]

If web design was easy, companies wouldn't pay hundreds, even thousands of
dollars for great web sites. CSS is about learning to do it right. I can
assure you that once you learn the techniques of CSS, you'll find it's a lot
faster than designing with tables. You just have to keep working on it.
Sure, you might have to give up on vertically equal height columns, but
that's not as important as you might think.

shlomi, your list was okay at first. You were using a background for the
list seperator, which was the right thing to do. Then you gave up on that
and decided to use an img. That's wrong, and so is the div inside each a
tag. Your markup should be:

ABOUT SUPPLIERS
SUPPORT
NEWS
SITE MAP
CONTACT

Then, your css is:

#navcontainer ul li a
{
padding: 0.2em 1em;
color: White;
text-decoration: none;
line-height:26px;
background: url(images/nav_seperator.gif) center left no-repeat;
}

#first
{
background:none;
}

Also, your ul does not need an id. Think about it, did you use the id
name in your css? no. You used #navcontainer ul.
You used the shortcut, so ul doesn't need an id.


On 9/22/05, shlomi asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

*hey guys*
> thanks so much for your replies
>
> *cristina*, have u found your css fails? mine never fall down.
> ill read more in details your email, later on- promise :)
>
> *dwain, **cristina, *look at this example, plz enlighten my eyes if im
> doing
> something wrong.
> http://www.shlomiasaf.com/CSS/nav/horizontal_NAV_BAR.htm
> look at the source, it based on eric mayers listematic
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal04.htm
> using table for this example, i would have done that in no time. i would
> have got vertical-align easly, td-box hieght and it was so easy to acvhive
> that goal in few secs and less code/css
> but here i broke my soul to achive this goal. i had to use 2 styles for
> the
> same nav. i had to define DIV style, and A style. its so complecated for
> no
> reason.
> cheers for any sugestions.
> Shlomi
>
>
> On 9/22/05, dwain alford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > shlomi asaf wrote:
> > > HI Guys
> > > I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
> > > im trying to figure what is the "golden path"
> >
> > in short, tables should be used for tabular data and divs are used as
> > containers for positioning. as you work with (x)html and css rather
> > than tables you will find that this is less code heavy than tables. in
> > the beginning there can be much frustration in positioning elements, but
> > when you begin to understand what you can do with html/css pages, quite
> > frankly, you will not want to go back to using tables for layout.
> >
> > i have been using html/css for layout for just over a year, and i don't
> > think that i could do a table layout if my mother's life depended on it.
> > there is more freedom in using html/css based layout over table layouts.
> >
> > sure, tables are quicker to layout, especially if you are a wysiwyger,
> > but i've been hand coding for just over a year, and i don't even
> > consider wysiwyg as an option any more.
> >
> > there was an advertisement long ago that espoused, "try it you'll like
> > it!" html/css based layouts appear to be more standards compliant than
> > table layouts (imo).
> >
> > hth,
> > dwain
> >
> >
> > --
> > dwain alford
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
> >
> > The Savior replied;
> > "There is no such thing as sin;..."
> > 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
> >
> =
> shlomi asaf wrote:
> > I'm facing now the dilemma between working with tables or div's
> > im trying to figure what is the "golden path"
>
> Hi
>
> IMHO it shouldn't be a tables Vs divs argument - because both have their
> place when correctly marked up. It should be a "tables for formatting"
> Vs CSS argument. Plus divs can be just as overused (I'm just as guilty
> of that).
>
> CSS will make your sites much easier to maintain in the future, if they
> are marked up correctly you will still be able to use the site even if
> your stylesheet fails. (Or more to the point your visitor decides they
> want to turn it off, or apply their own styling).
>
> The thing that is important is that you shouldn't force your website to
> be viewed a certain way. Which a table formatted design will try to do
> and will also be more difficult to use on different platforms.
>
> I totally understand what you mean about table formatted design being
> easier to create.
>
> But just try a little test - try navigating around your site using
> nothing but the keyboard, try it on other sites too - ones that are CSS
> driven and ones that are table driven. See how you get on. Now turn
> off the CSS and images - are those sites still usable/accessible? Are
> your sites still usable/accessible? Which in your opinion came out
> best? They might not look as pretty - but when it comes down to it -
> people want to access and use the information.
>
> My 2p

[css-d] site check please - http://www.Looperman-is-ready.com

[Joseph Harris]

This is relatively simple html css but I have been unable to check in 
browsers other than IE6 (computer disaster among other things) so any help 
in checking other browsers would be appreciated.


Sample Pages are generated by a publishing program so the css in embedded. 
I started to make it external, but found the same class did different things 
on different pages.  Is this a good way to cope?   Or would it be far better 
to do the work of renaming as necessary to move the css external?


All comments are welcome, of course.
http://www.Looperman-is-ready.com

Thank you for your help


Joseph Harris
Humor coming soon:
(When Nature Calls)
http://www.Looperman-is-ready.com
(Loo as in English toilet...)
http://www.smilepoetryweekly.com
(family friendly humour) 


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[css-d] Re: Float in IE Mac expands design

[Yazmin Media]

Suggestions anyone?

On 9/21/05, Yazmin Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have the following files:
>
> http://yazminmedia.com/playground/test.htm
> http://yazminmedia.com/playground/description.css
> http://yazminmedia.com/playground/metal2.css
>
> In the description.css file, if I float the .panel class, it forces IE/Mac
> users to have to scroll horizontally to view the whole page. If I remove the
> float: left; spec, the .results class div gets pushed down below the .panel
> class div.
>
> I'd like for the .results div and the .panel div to appear side by side.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Yazmin Wickham
> Contractor - Internet Development
> http://www.yazmin.net
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Re: [css-d] Re: Float in IE Mac expands design

[Yazmin Media]

On 9/22/05, Christian Heilmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Move the files to another folder, this one keeps asking for login details.
>
> Therefore we cannot see your CSS and give you any advice.
>
> My guess is that you have set no width to the floated element.MSIE is
> picky with that.




Sorry, I forgot to mention that you just need to click the cancel button at
the login prompt. This file is displaced where it is, as it resides on
another server as part of an in development system. That accounts for the
login prompt, since the file is still trying to call images from that
server.

However, you should still be able to see the CSS files using the direct
links I provided since they are not protected themselves.

Regarding the float width, I do have a width on every floated element.

Thanks!

--
Yazmin Wickham
Contractor - Internet Development
http://www.yazmin.net
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[css-d] background image trouble

[Tanya Renne]

At this site:

http://dev.ironworkers.org

there is a big gap in the middle of the left sidebar - it is there 
because the nav2 div ends prematurely ... to remedy that I've added a 
background image to #sitecontainer - but i've done something wrong 
because the image isn't showing up.


Any thoughts on what simple thing I'm missing?
- Tanya
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[css-d] CSS in Theory & Practise

[ibn Ezra]

Howdy!
It's obvious that CSS based design is the better choice for where I  
want to take my site & page designs, but there are some basic  
questions about CSS theory v. practise that I wish I understood more  
thoroughly. KISS Theory ('keep it simple...') is telling me that I  
should keep my rules to the bare minimum; both for lighter code and  
easier troubleshooting as the rules governing the presentation grow  
larger & more complex.


Yet there also are the practical issue of browser defaults which pull  
in the opposite direction. One might make assumptions about how the  
browser will handle the page background-color, font-size & line- 
height, or margin & padding but there is certainly no guarantee that  
all browsers have the same defaults. Sometimes that's a non-issue,  
but at other times it's certain result in a design breakdown that  
creates an unpleasant user experience.


So before I get all obsessive-compulsive and create CSS rules for  
every possible design attribute it seemed like a good idea to ask if  
there was any documentation covering the practical issues associated  
with browser defaults for the major browsers. There's plenty of  
coverage for which browsers support which CSS attributes, but I  
haven't had much success in getting a better handle on dealing with  
browser defaults.


Thanks in advance for your help!
-iE

.

ibn Ezra
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

.




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Re: [css-d] and background image without border in IE

[Steve Clay]

Thursday, September 22, 2005, 3:32:28 AM, Martin Petrov wrote:
> knows  how to remove the border that Internet Explorer shows when
> using a background image with the hr element.

Styling HR is pretty much hopeless cross-browser.  Put a DIV around it,
position the HR offscreen (it may have use to screen readers) and style the
DIV.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/ : http://thefrenchhorns.com/

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Re: [css-d] Designing without tables

[John Guchemand]

Hello all,

It is a pleasure to be a newcomer to this group.  It appears to be a
great (live) resource for web designers/developers, and I am so glad
that I found out about this.  Well, nice to meet you.

OK, on with my question.  

In IE6 the text on this page (http://www.csszengarden.com) doesn't
change even when I select Text Size->Largest.  On the other hand when I
do the same thing on another page (eg., www.ebay.com) it works fine, and
the text size is enlarged.

When doing the same in Firefox, the text on both web pages are
enlarged.  

Does anyone know why this is happening (not happening) in IE6?  Is there
some sort of CSS code involved that shuts off user control in IE?

Thank you for any comments.

Cheers,

John
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RE: [css-d] CSS in Theory & Practise

[Pringle, Ron]

> Yet there also are the practical issue of browser defaults 
> which pull  
> in the opposite direction. One might make assumptions about how the  
> browser will handle the page background-color, font-size & line- 
> height, or margin & padding but there is certainly no guarantee that  
> all browsers have the same defaults. Sometimes that's a non-issue,  
> but at other times it's certain result in a design breakdown that  
> creates an unpleasant user experience.
> 
> So before I get all obsessive-compulsive and create CSS rules for  
> every possible design attribute it seemed like a good idea to ask if  
> there was any documentation covering the practical issues associated  
> with browser defaults for the major browsers. There's plenty of  
> coverage for which browsers support which CSS attributes, but I  
> haven't had much success in getting a better handle on dealing with  
> browser defaults.

Ibn-

You might want to take a look at this page discussing Global Whitespace
Reset.

http://leftjustified.net/journal/2004/10/19/global-ws-reset/

Ron
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Re: [css-d] CSS in Theory & Practise

[Christian Heilmann]

> Yet there also are the practical issue of browser defaults which pull
> in the opposite direction. One might make assumptions about how the
> browser will handle the page background-color, font-size & line-
> height, or margin & padding but there is certainly no guarantee that
> all browsers have the same defaults. Sometimes that's a non-issue,
> but at other times it's certain result in a design breakdown that
> creates an unpleasant user experience.

First of all: A web site that looks the _same_ in every browser is
possibly not achievable and is also not really a clever web site. The
idea is that you improve the experience with the ability of the
browser and allow the users to change their browser settings without
making your site unusable.

A lot of browser issues can be solved with the whitespace reset:

* {margin:0;padding:0;}
http://leftjustified.net/journal/2004/10/19/global-ws-reset/

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
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Re: [css-d] CSS in Theory & Practise

[Alex Robinson]

Practice good. Theory bad. On this list in any case.

So, when you've figured out what direction you want to take, come 
back and fire away with practical questions.


In the meantime, this article of Eric's should get you started:

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/15/emreallyem-undoing-htmlcss/


Alex Robinson
css-d moderator
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RE: [css-d] Stylinzing drop lists

[Peach Lynda L Contr 96 CG/SCTOA]

While not completely on-topic -- be careful of using red on green or vice
versa. The Red/Green color combination is the most standard one that fails
for color-blind users. For them it will closely resemble gray on gray. In
other words, unusable.

A neat little free tool called "Colour Contrast Analyzer" is available at
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/

When I ran your color combination through it, I got the following:
"X" The difference in brightness between the two colours is not
sufficient.
  [the red "X" indicates 'do not use']
Why? It tells you.
"The threshold is 125, and the result of the foreground 
and background colours is 96.

The difference in colour between the two colours is not 
sufficient. The threshold is 500, and the result of the 
foreground and background colours is 204."

-
We should not take this color thread any further as it is off-topic. But I
wanted to share the above tool because all of us who use CSS always deal in
color whether it be our idea or our customer. We don't always have someone
around who is color-blind to view our site and tell us if the selected
colors 'work' for them.

I receive so many valuable pieces of info and tool tips I wanted to share
this one. Who knows -- I may have read about it on THIS list in the first
place.

Lynda Peach

-Original Message-
> Using CSS, I have stylized my droplist to with a red/green color 
> scheme at http://webmarksonline.com/temp/styledroplist.html
>
> The problem is that I am unable to stylize the actively selected option.
> Right now the active option as well as the option as the user mouse 
> over them is the default white on blue.  How do I change that to say 
> red or yellow for example?


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RE: [css-d] Designing without tables

[Oliver Hodgson]

> -Original Message-
> From: Guchemand
> Subject: Re: [css-d] Designing without tables
> 
> In IE6 the text on this page (http://www.csszengarden.com) doesn't
> change even when I select Text Size->Largest.  On the other 
> hand when I
> do the same thing on another page (eg., www.ebay.com) it 
> works fine, and
> the text size is enlarged.

This is because Internet Explorer cannot resize text whose size is set in 
pixels, but can size text set in other measurement details.

IE cannot resize this:

  body { font-size: 12px; }

but can resize this:

  body { font-size: 1em; }

I hope that helps.

Cheers,


-- 
Olly Hodgson
Web Designer, Sesame
 


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Re: [css-d] Designing without tables

[John Guchemand]

Thank you all for your help.

Next time, I will start a new thread.

Cheers,

John
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RE: [css-d] Designing without tables

[CJ Larson]

FireFox gives the user the ability to resize text regardless of what the
designer specified as units in their CSS code.  IE, on the other hand,
doesn't resize the text if the CSS specifies the font in px/pt, which is
what the default template for zengarden does:

body { font: 9pt/17pt georgia; }


However, on ebay, they used a different method:

body { font-size:small; }


hth.  :)


-Original Message-
In IE6 the text on this page (http://www.csszengarden.com) doesn't
change even when I select Text Size->Largest.  On the other hand when I
do the same thing on another page (eg., www.ebay.com) it works fine, and
the text size is enlarged.

When doing the same in Firefox, the text on both web pages are
enlarged.
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RE: [css-d] Designing without tables

[Oliver Hodgson]

> -Original Message-
> From: Oliver Hodgson
> 
> This is because Internet Explorer cannot resize text whose 
> size is set in pixels, but can size text set in other 
> measurement details.

Huh? Read that as "other units of measurement". I'm up to my eyeballs in 
decongestant, so thinking isn't my strong point right now :(


-- 
Olly Hodgson
Web Designer, Sesame


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Re: [css-d] CSS in Theory & Practise

[Rob Cochrane]

ibn Ezra wrote:

Howdy!
It's obvious that CSS based design is the better choice for where I  
want to take my site & page designs, but there are some basic  questions 
about CSS theory v. practise that I wish I understood more  thoroughly. 
KISS Theory ('keep it simple...') is telling me that I  should keep my 
rules to the bare minimum; both for lighter code and  easier 
troubleshooting as the rules governing the presentation grow  larger & 
more complex.


Yet there also are the practical issue of browser defaults which pull  
in the opposite direction. One might make assumptions about how the  
browser will handle the page background-color, font-size & line- height, 
or margin & padding but there is certainly no guarantee that  all 
browsers have the same defaults. Sometimes that's a non-issue,  but at 
other times it's certain result in a design breakdown that  creates an 
unpleasant user experience.


So before I get all obsessive-compulsive and create CSS rules for  every 
possible design attribute it seemed like a good idea to ask if  there 
was any documentation covering the practical issues associated  with 
browser defaults for the major browsers. There's plenty of  coverage for 
which browsers support which CSS attributes, but I  haven't had much 
success in getting a better handle on dealing with  browser defaults.




Hi,

I do believe this is a mindset thing!

As we progress into more and more modern browsers we will find font size 
adjustment by user as a given. Background colours by user choice and 
many more features will be left to the user.
I believe the next advance by browser developers will be in educating 
users to develop their own default style sheet. "Control your own 
surfing experience"
You have no idea what browser is going to use the page so from my 
perspective KISS applies. Simple structural CSS then a few presentation 
sheets where needed and alternate pretty CSS for the user to choose.


Less and less we will worry about old broken down browsers (is there 
actually users using NN4? I have never even seen a copy!) More we will 
be concentrating on alternate CSS for cell phones and PDA's and other 
mobile devices.
I looked at my own page on my cellphone today and I was shocked. Tonight 
I make a mobile device style sheet to get some respectability. I also 
downloaded an emulator so I can save a bit of money on testing!


Why? Well in South Africa for many people the only access to the 
Internet is via a cell phone! This is be the same throughout Africa. 
Europe has 3g Asia has 3G and surfing with a cell is becoming the way to 
go. I called the local Nokia HO and they would not give figure but say 
they are dispatching thousands of 3G and GPRS capable phones a day! That 
is just in SA. (15 million cell phones)


Rob


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Re: [css-d] Re: Float in IE Mac expands design

[Ben Curtis]

On 9/21/05, Yazmin Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I have the following files:

http://yazminmedia.com/playground/test.htm
http://yazminmedia.com/playground/description.css
http://yazminmedia.com/playground/metal2.css

In the description.css file, if I float the .panel class, it forces  
IE/Mac
users to have to scroll horizontally to view the whole page. If I  
remove the
float: left; spec, the .results class div gets pushed down below  
the .panel

class div.

I'd like for the .results div and the .panel div to appear side by  
side.



It's difficult to tell what's going on, since you have many items on  
the page (images?) behind some password protection, and a large  
number of javascript errors stemming from DOCTYPE tags in your JS  
files. In addition, the XHTML does not validate (but likely would  
once you correct the capitalization) so we can't see if the CSS would  
validate. However, it sounds like I problem I've run into before.


I haven't pinned down the problem, but it seems that Mac IE will  
sometimes improperly nest the element that follows an element removed  
from the flow (e.g., float or absolute positioned). The solution is  
to put a comment after the closing tag of each such element. In your  
case, see if placing a comment after your panel div works.


--

Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613




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[css-d] Which browsers do you support?

[Evert | Collab]

For my projects I support and test in

   * Internet Explorer 5.5/6.0
   * Firefox > 1.0
   * Mozilla Suite
   * Safari 1/2
   * Netscape 6.0 - 8.0
   * Lynx
   * Links

Browsers I explicitly don't support are:

   * Netscape 4 or older
   * Internet Explorer 5 on Mac

This question has probably been asked before, but it's still interesting 
if people's opinions change over time.


[ this post was inspired by the CSS Theory & Practice thread ;) ]

Evert
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Re: [css-d] Which browsers do you support?

[Michael Wilson]

I support:

* Internet Explorer 5.0+
* Firefox
* Mozilla
* Safari
* Netscape 6.0+
* Opera 7+ (6+ if I can)

For older and other browsers, I just try to make sure the site is usable 
and I don't concern myself much with the look and feel of things.


--
Best regards,
Michael Wilson

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[ADMIN - OFF TOPIC - PLEASE READ] Re: [css-d] Which browsers do you support?

[Alex Robinson]

This question has probably been asked before, but it's still 
interesting if people's opinions change over time.


[ this post was inspired by the CSS Theory & Practice thread ;) ]



OK, mea culpa.

I thought I'd go easy and not get all stroppy about all the 
off-topicness on [css-d] today, but enough is enough.


This list is for the practical discussion of CSS - that is discussion 
about the actual nuts and bolts of *using* CSS, not the underlying 
theory, not how well CSS stacks up against tables.


There are plenty of other venues for all these types of post

   http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=OffTopic


Seeing that some people have either never read them (or have 
forgotten they exist) I draw your attention to the posting guidelines


  http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PostingGuidelines


As for the subject of the current thread, that has no place 
whatsoever on the list. Different people and different projects have 
different requirements. There cannot even begin to be an answer to 
this that satisfies everybody which is why the question often ends up 
descending into holy war territory.


If anyone wants to write Evert directly, please do so, but don't 
continue this thread on list.



Please everyone, can we just get back on topic?


Alex Robinson
css-d moderator
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Re: [css-d] Which browsers do you support?

[Mark Mckee]

I have to say I support:-

*firefox windows and linux
*mozilla windows and linux
*opera windows and linux
*Safari
*Netscape if possible

I definately no longer support:-

*IE in all its forms --- i am sick and tired of having to change my 
designs to suit IE, tired of having to hack my code so it displays 
correctly. lets hope IE7 works or that will be crossed off my list.


mark

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[css-d] Site check: simple stuff

[Guy K. Haas]

Could someone out there on a Mac let me know whether

 http://covinahigh68.com/testing.htm

looks OK?  "Stretchable" banner at top fades from white to red, with a 
red colt in the left end, a title in silver, and a white colt in the 
right end. Narrowing the window should cause the title to divide into 
two lines.


Likewise, if anyone with Netscape 7 can eyeball it and see if there is a 
problem on any platform (one informant on Win 2K with Netscape 7 reports 
seeing only the red colt at the top).


--Thanks,
   Guy K. Haas
   Software Exegete in Silicon Valley

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Re: [css-d] Site Check Please - Voices of CSM

[Juanita]

David Laakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Thursday, September 22, 2005 at 9:17
AM -0800 wrote:
>Felix Miata wrote:
>
>>Juanita wrote:
>>  
>>
>She's looking and working much, much better now, Juanita.
>
>
>>It's wonderful to see my text size preference there. :-)
>The problem is,
>>your 699px wide #wrapper constraint doesn't permit it as much space asit
>requires: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/kcsm1.png
>>  
>>
>Unless Felix has a problem with this, I'd suggest that:
>Giving more width to the sidebar may solve the problem of breaking on
>zoom.
>Try these dimensions (not tested).
>

Hi David & Felix -

Thanks for the suggested changes, I will try them and see how they work,
and again, a HUGH thanks to you David who I actually owe alot to for the
guidance that is making this site work - and increasing my knowledge of
CSS!

Juanita

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Re: [css-d] and background image without border in IE

[David Laakso]

Martin Petrov wrote:


I guess my question's been asked many times. I'm wondering if anybody
knows  how to remove the border that Internet Explorer shows when
using a background image with the hr element.


 


Martin,
FWIW, I do not remember where I got this stuff.
And have no idea if all this code to create a lousy cross-browser hr 
will even work in your particular situation?

hr { border: none; /* For Internet Explorer */ color: #CFDEE1; height:
1px; text-align: right; width: 100%; }
html { background: #EBECF1; margin: 0; padding: 0; }
html>body hr { background-color: #CFDEE1; border: none; /* For Gecko-based
browsers */ height: 1px; margin-right: 0; width: 100%; }
html>body hr { background-color: #CFDEE1; border: 0px solid #CFDEE1; /*
For Opera and Gecko-based browsers */ height: 1px; margin-right: 0; width:
100%; }
Best,
~dL



--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com

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Re: [css-d] Site check: simple stuff

[Tom Livingston]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:09:34 -0400, Guy K. Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Could someone out there on a Mac let me know whether
  http://covinahigh68.com/testing.htm
 looks OK?  "Stretchable" banner at top fades from white to red, with a  
red colt in the left end, a title in silver, and a white colt in the  
right end. Narrowing the window should cause the title to divide into  
two lines.


Yup. Opera 8.5 Mac.

--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [css-d] Re: Float in IE Mac expands design

[Yazmin Media]

On 9/22/05, Ben Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's difficult to tell what's going on, since you have many items on
> the page (images?) behind some password protection, and a large
> number of javascript errors stemming from DOCTYPE tags in your JS
> files. In addition, the XHTML does not validate (but likely would
> once you correct the capitalization) so we can't see if the CSS would
> validate. However, it sounds like I problem I've run into before.


Thank you Ben. This project is protected behind a realm. I should have made
a copy of the HTML as it comes out in the browser and uploaded that to my
personal server. That's what I've done now, so there should be no issues
with realm protection, however, it has duplicated some elements (which
should be ignored). I hope this fixes most issues that have been stopping
people from commenting.

Concerning validation, this is a canned system that we are trying to
customize without modifying core files. If there are validation issues not
associated with our added code, I unfortunately am not allowed to fix them.
But I have been sending these issues to the developer, so I hope they will
be fixed in future releases. However, I thought CSS files could be validated
separately. Is that not the case?


I haven't pinned down the problem, but it seems that Mac IE will
> sometimes improperly nest the element that follows an element removed
> from the flow (e.g., float or absolute positioned). The solution is
> to put a comment after the closing tag of each such element. In your
> case, see if placing a comment after your panel div works.
>
>
The panel div is actually three distinct divs with the same class but a
different id (panel1, panel2, and panel3) that sit one on top of the other.
I put a comment after each of these panels, but it did not fix the problem.

Thanks,
--
Yazmin Wickham
Contractor - Internet Development
http://www.yazmin.net
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[css-d] Re: Negative Margin & FireFox Mac Issue

[Yazmin Media]

Well, this has turned out to still be an issue (on another site), so if
anyone had any suggestions they would be appreciated!

Thanks!

On 9/21/05, Yazmin Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've been playing with the following file:
>
> http://yazminmedia.com/playground/tabs.htm
>
> The problem I've encountered is with lining up the tabs (.tab) on top of
> the content div (.panelx). Anyhow, in Firefox/IE on Windows and Safari/IE on
> Mac, the page displays as intended, but on Firefox Mac, the tabs overlap the
> panel divs.
>
> I used a negative margin of 1px on the panel divs to achieve this in all
> the other browsers, but Firefox Mac doesn't seem to be obeying. Would
> someone take a look at the CSS and see if I'm doing something wrong?
>
> The CSS and XHTML validate. The CSS is in the same file at the moment.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
--
Yazmin Wickham
Contractor - Internet Development
http://www.yazmin.net
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[css-d] Getting back into css...

[BEAUCHAMP, MICHAEL J.]

Hi,

 

I have a decent level of understanding of how style sheets work, but I
would like to get to the point where I can design something along the
lines of css zen garden. By that I mean that I would like to have a deep
enough understanding of both xhtml and css so that I could design a web
page with multiple designs (like zen garden). I find that when I look at
layout templates that I don't always understand some of the concepts
applied.  

 

Can anyone recommend a good book for me?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Michael Beauchamp
IT Developer 1
Amica Mutual Insurance Company
25 Amica Way
Lincoln, RI 02865-1155
1-800-992-6422 ext. 23224
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 




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Re: [css-d] Which browsers do you support?

[Alan Stevens]

Mark Mckee wrote:

I have to say I support:-

*firefox windows and linux
*mozilla windows and linux
*opera windows and linux
*Safari
*Netscape if possible

I definately no longer support:-

*IE in all its forms --- i am sick and tired of having to change my 
designs to suit IE, tired of having to hack my code so it displays 
correctly. lets hope IE7 works or that will be crossed off my list.


mark

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I recognize the frustration with IE. Who here hasn't finished a 
beautiful layout in __ (fill in the blank), and then screamed 
obscenities and frightened coworkers and family when you saw how IE 
mangled your beautiful and validated work? I know I have!


I really do hesitate to reply, because this issue has been flogged to 
death (and then some!) on every list I have ever been on, but since 
CSS-D is supposed to be about the practical rather than just theory, 
here's a fact I would like to ignore but haven't been able to:


"On average, 95%+ (that's not a typo) of of my small business customers 
and their site visitors use MS-IE versions 5.x through 6.x, according to 
the browser stats I collect."


I truly am open to suggestions on how to overcome this fact and ignore 
the IE platform altogether, of course while continuing to earn an income


I can make a good economic case for using CSS that makes sense to small 
business customers. And, while I don't have a good economic 
justification for accessibility, as the price of compliance continues to 
fall I am able to include it or some portion of it without much 
grumbling. However, I have no idea how to tell my customers that we are 
going to ignore up to 95% of their user base because I don't like the 
way those users have chosen to access content and because it makes my 
job more complicated. I suppose you could upcharge clients for MS-IE 
compliance, but if you do please forward me a list of your prospects so 
I can bid against you :). All kidding aside, I don't have a clue how to 
tell clients they won't get a site that renders in IE and still continue 
to run a business.


The user chose MS-IE. We might not like it, or we might think they made 
an uninformed choice (I use FF and Thunderbird when using a Windoze 
platform, so it's my belief as well), but that was their choice. In 
theory I think I should respect that choice, and in practice the fact 
that 19 out of 20 of my client's end users have chosen it means I don't 
have much say in the matter for the foreseeable future. I don't see how 
telling them you can't use MS-IE is any different then putting an 
animated rainbow banner on the front that says "This site is designed 
for Netscape 2.0 at 800x600."


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RE: [css-d] Getting back into css...

[Ian Skinner]

Not to be too snarky, but how about the Zen Garden book.  "the Zen of CSS 
design" by Dave Shea and Molly Holzschlag published by New Riders.

I have my copy, but have yet had the chance to read it, so I can only comment 
that it exists and had decent review on Amazon.


--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
 
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

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Re: [css-d] ADMIN: Which browsers do you support?

[Eric A. Meyer]

Hello,

   Maybe Alex wasn't quite clear enough earlier.  Allow me to 
reiterate what he said, only with fewer words and all in capitals:


   THIS THREAD IS OVER.

Thank you.

   (Why?  See the "Holy Wars" section of 
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PostingGuidelines -- something 
to which Alex pointed in his message.)


--
Eric A. Meyer (http://meyerweb.com/eric/), List Chaperone
"CSS is much too interesting and elegant to be not taken seriously."
  -- Martina Kosloff (http://mako4css.com/)
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RE: [css-d] Getting back into css...

[BEAUCHAMP, MICHAEL J.]

I don't know what snarky means, but thanks for the tip.  :)

Michael Beauchamp
IT Developer 1
Amica Mutual Insurance Company
25 Amica Way
Lincoln, RI 02865-1155
1-800-992-6422 ext. 23224
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:09 PM
To: BEAUCHAMP, MICHAEL J.
Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
Subject: RE: [css-d] Getting back into css...

Not to be too snarky, but how about the Zen Garden book.  "the Zen of
CSS design" by Dave Shea and Molly Holzschlag published by New Riders.

I have my copy, but have yet had the chance to read it, so I can only
comment that it exists and had decent review on Amazon.


--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
 
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

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Re: [css-d] Getting back into css...

[Alan Stevens]

BEAUCHAMP, MICHAEL J. wrote:

Hi,

 


I have a decent level of understanding of how style sheets work, but I
would like to get to the point where I can design something along the
lines of css zen garden. By that I mean that I would like to have a deep
enough understanding of both xhtml and css so that I could design a web
page with multiple designs (like zen garden). I find that when I look at
layout templates that I don't always understand some of the concepts
applied.  

 


Can anyone recommend a good book for me?

 


Thanks in advance,

 


Michael Beauchamp
IT Developer 1
Amica Mutual Insurance Company
25 Amica Way
Lincoln, RI 02865-1155
1-800-992-6422 ext. 23224
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 





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Boy I am in a reply'in mood today - as usual it means I have work I 
don't want to complete :)


Since you say you have a good understanding of the basics, I would 
recommend websites over most books, as they tend to give good 
intermediate/advanced discussions (alistpart etc etc), while most books 
on CSS are aimed at the beginner. One exception that people rave about 
is "Bulletproof Web Design', but I haven't read it and can't comment. 
You can google lots of good websites and blogs to find what you are 
looking for.


What got me over the hump was leaving the theory behind and doing 
exercises. I am very much a learn by doing person. There are lots of 
good example books, but 'Eric Meyer on CSS' and 'More Eric Meyer on CSS' 
where the most helpful to me, because there were some 30 excersises I 
could do step by step and compare with what was in the book. By the time 
you are done with those you will have a good grasp of positioning and 
styling. Positioning is not intuitive, at least it wasn't for me, and I 
had to do lots of hands-on work before I felt like I had the hang of 
things.


My advice is to load the sites you like into a FireFox browser (make 
sure you get the developer toolbar and render as source extensions). 
Then you can use those and the DOM inspector and "edit css" tool in FF 
to understand what's going on. If you find a piece of code you can't 
decipher, email the author or post it here and I bet you'll get a 
competent response.


Good luck!

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Re: [css-d] IE Bugs with div alignment

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Julie Davis wrote:


-Original Message-
My page looks perfect in Firefox v.1, Navigator v.6-8, Safari v.2, and
Mozilla v.1.7 but the alignment of the main content portion of my page
is really wild.

http://www.clarkson.edu/depts/newweb/clarkson_experience/index.html
   



"CJ Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 09/21/2005 01:03:46 PM:

 


To take a guess, I would imagine you've run into the ie float
double-margin bug.  Good news is that it's easily fixable.  :)

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.html

   



Thanks for the idea CJ! 

I gave it a try though and it seems to not be the fix for my problem. i 
was so hoping it was that easy. Any other ideas, anyone?
 



I don't see the difference between the page in FF and IE.  Did you fix 
it?  If so, how?


Zoe

--
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Specialist
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu

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Re: [css-d] Re: Negative Margin & FireFox Mac Issue

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Yazmin Media wrote:


Well, this has turned out to still be an issue (on another site), so if
anyone had any suggestions they would be appreciated!

Thanks!

On 9/21/05, Yazmin Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 


I've been playing with the following file:

http://yazminmedia.com/playground/tabs.htm

The problem I've encountered is with lining up the tabs (.tab) on top of
the content div (.panelx). Anyhow, in Firefox/IE on Windows and Safari/IE on
Mac, the page displays as intended, but on Firefox Mac, the tabs overlap the
panel divs.

I used a negative margin of 1px on the panel divs to achieve this in all
the other browsers, but Firefox Mac doesn't seem to be obeying. Would
someone take a look at the CSS and see if I'm doing something wrong?
   



Yazmin,

It's probably a rounding error.  Can you send the URL of the page that 
has a similar problem?


Zoe

--
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Specialist
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu

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[css-d] Forms

[Alan Gutierrez]

A newbie question on styling forms.

In the olden days, I would have put them in a table, labels on
the left, elements on the right.

These days I want to do it the CSS way.

A structure question...

What elements do I use to markup structure? DL/DT/DD? UL/LI?

(Not too interested in styling yet.)

An accessiblity question...

What are the usability attributes, how to use them?

Pointers to your favorite articles would be greatly appreciated.

--
Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [css-d] Getting back into css...

[Christian Heilmann]

> I have a decent level of understanding of how style sheets work, but I
> would like to get to the point where I can design something along the
> lines of css zen garden. By that I mean that I would like to have a deep
> enough understanding of both xhtml and css so that I could design a web
> page with multiple designs (like zen garden). I find that when I look at
> layout templates that I don't always understand some of the concepts
> applied.
>
> Can anyone recommend a good book for me?

Yes, there is a page on this discussion list's WIKI dedicated to that:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=GoodBooks

In the last few weeks a lot of people asked for books and the noise on
this list is pretty high because of it. So can we please add our new
finds to the WIKI page instead of answering the same over and over
again?

I will add now: Bulletproof CSS by Dan Cederholm and CSS Hacks by Ivor
Gotatthemoment.

--
Chris Heilmann
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Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
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[css-d] Re: Forms

[Alan Gutierrez]

* Alan Gutierrez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-09-22 16:36]:
> A newbie question on styling forms.
> 
> In the olden days, I would have put them in a table, labels on
> the left, elements on the right.
> 
> These days I want to do it the CSS way.
> 
> A structure question...
> 
> What elements do I use to markup structure? DL/DT/DD? UL/LI?
> 
> (Not too interested in styling yet.)
> 
> An accessiblity question...
> 
> What are the usability attributes, how to use them?
> 
> Pointers to your favorite articles would be greatly appreciated.

Found:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html

FIELDSET and LEGEND are new to me. Is this the way it's done?

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RE: [css-d] Forms

[Rowan @ Jetboy]

No list tags; they'd be used for styling lists. ;)

Try , which can be nested; , but use a  inside it
and style that instead; and . I get better styling mileage using
 before or after the form control than wrapping it around the
control. Floats are definitely useful if you want to avoid adding additional
structural markup.

For accessibility, you get the choice of using labels and legends, or using
title attributes.




What elements do I use to markup structure? DL/DT/DD? UL/LI?

(Not too interested in styling yet.)

An accessiblity question...

What are the usability attributes, how to use them?



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Re: [css-d] Re: Negative Margin & FireFox Mac Issue

[Yazmin Media]

On 9/22/05, Zoe M. Gillenwater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yazmin,
>
> It's probably a rounding error. Can you send the URL of the page that
> has a similar problem?
>
> Zoe
>

Sure. Here it is:

http://yazminmedia.com/playground/tabs.htm

Thanks!
--
Yazmin Wickham
Contractor - Internet Development
http://www.yazmin.net
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Re: [css-d] Forms

[Christian Heilmann]

> No list tags; they'd be used for styling lists. ;)
>
> Try , which can be nested; , but use a  inside it
> and style that instead; and . I get better styling mileage using
>  before or after the form control than wrapping it around the
> control. Floats are definitely useful if you want to avoid adding additional
> structural markup.
>
> For accessibility, you get the choice of using labels and legends, or using
> title attributes.

This is a markup issue, not really CSS. And careful what to propagate
as "good styleable element" and useful.

- The job of fieldset and legend is to group controls that logically
belong together in a unit - in the markup and on the screen - like
"Your Address" incorporating street, house name and number, city,
county and postcode (or the other localised equivalents)

- The job of a label is to tell the visitor what the field it connects
to (via the for attribute) is, like Family
name (It connects to the
element's ID not the name attribute). You do not need to nest the
element in it - you can, though

- Title attributes are a tricky thing, and definitely NOT a valid
accessibility fallback. Titles explain more than meets the eye (or the
ear) on the first encounter - but not all users have title reading
enabled or have the patience/aptitude to see the rendered tooltip a
title attribute creates.

As for laying out tables via CSS: There are several schools of
thought. One claims that tables are still valid for form layout, as a
label can be seen as a table header and the form field as the table
cell (instead of real table data the field is the changeable data).
Another uses the same analogy to advertise definition lists as a good
way of laying out forms. Others see lists as the cat's pyjamas and a
fourth uses plain old paragraphs.

I personally had bad experience with floated labels - especially in MSIE/Mac.

Links:
The godfather article:
Simulates tables with DIVs, probably a dated and semantically dubious approach
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/practicalcss/

labels/fieldsets/paragraphs
http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/
http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/InForm/index.htm

Rolls Royce version discussed here some weeks ago:
http://jeffhowden.com/code/css/forms/

Good overview over various techniques:
http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/formlayout.php

HTH
Chris
--
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Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
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[css-d] lists with in Safari

[Steve Lockwood]

Most of my html lists need to have a blank line between line items. DreamWeaver 
(v6 through 8) shows the html as ..., and BBEdit's syntax 
checker (v6 through 8) passes this as correct for html 4.01 Transitional and 
xhtml 1.0 Transitional. In fact this code works in all browsers I've tried 
except Safari (any version). Is this a bug in Safari, or is the syntax flawed?

Suggestions appreciated!
--Steve Lockwood
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [css-d] lists with in Safari

[Christian Heilmann]

> Most of my html lists need to have a blank line between line items. 
> DreamWeaver (v6 through 8) shows the html as ..., and 
> BBEdit's syntax checker (v6 through 8) passes this as correct for html 4.01 
> Transitional and xhtml 1.0 Transitional. In fact this code works in all 
> browsers I've tried except Safari (any version). Is this a bug in Safari, or 
> is the syntax flawed?

if you add a P just to have some whitespace then, yes your syntax is
flawed. Why don't you just use

li{
margin-bottom:1em;
}

to get the line spacing between the LIs?


--
Chris Heilmann
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Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
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Re: [css-d] lists with in Safari

[Paul Novitski]

At 03:03 PM 9/22/2005, Steve Lockwood wrote:
Most of my html lists need to have a blank line between line items. 
DreamWeaver (v6 through 8) shows the html as ..., 
and BBEdit's syntax checker (v6 through 8) passes this as correct 
for html 4.01 Transitional and xhtml 1.0 Transitional. In fact this 
code works in all browsers I've tried except Safari (any version). 
Is this a bug in Safari, or is the syntax flawed?



Steve,

It seems like extraneous markup to me.  How about stripping out the P 
tags and styling the LI elements with {margin-bottom: 1ex;} or 
{margin-bottom: 1em;}.


Paul 


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RE: [css-d] Forms

[Rowan @ Jetboy]

- Title attributes are a tricky thing, and definitely NOT a valid
accessibility fallback. Titles explain more than meets the eye (or the
ear) on the first encounter - but not all users have title reading enabled
or have the patience/aptitude to see the rendered tooltip a title attribute
creates.


Bad phrasing on my part, but in fact the WCAG 2.0 draft does actually
suggest using "title to label form controls that can't be individually
labeled." So precisely as an accessibility fallback. However, I can't
readily think of a situation where  can't be used, so it seems to be
a bit of a redundant recommendation. If a label's in the way visually, it
can be styled using a negative text indent and absolute positioning to hide
it and take it out of the flow.


One claims that tables are still valid for form layout, as a label can be
seen as a table header and the form field as the table cell (instead of real
table data the field is the changeable data). Another uses the same analogy
to advertise definition lists as a good way of laying out forms. Others see
lists as the cat's pyjamas and a fourth uses plain old paragraphs.


Hmmm. The question I have to ask is whether these perspectives would even
exist if it were more straightforward to style forms with the existing
semantic elements? I can buy a navigation bar as a list of links, but not a
form as a series of paragraphs.

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[css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[Nancy Smith]

I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,
but only IE on the PC and Mac.  Very frustrating. 
Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site. 

http://www.wminc.biz

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
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Re: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[Rimantas Liubertas]

2005/9/23, Nancy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
> First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,

Hi, some interesting browsers you have got ;)

> but only IE on the PC and Mac.  Very frustrating.
> Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site.

As far as I can tell your jpegs are not  on the server.
I've tried directly retrieve sidebar.jpg - it is not here,

aboutus.htm reffers to images/faucet.jpg, but there is no
faucet.jpg in the images directory...

And frankly, sorry to say that, but I wouldn't expect much of
the cross-browser compliance with the current state of your HTML.

Make it meaningfull and make if valid. Things likt that below look
confusing...:

  


Hose Bids 
  
<...>

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
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RE: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[Peter Williams]

> From: Nancy Smith
> Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site. 
> http://www.wminc.biz

Nancy,



When I looked in http://www.wminc.biz/images/
I saw no such image. Looks to me like you forgot to upload them.

-- 
Peter Williams
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Re: [css-d] Re: Float in IE Mac expands design

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

I have the following files:

http://yazminmedia.com/playground/test.htm
http://yazminmedia.com/playground/description.css
http://yazminmedia.com/playground/metal2.css

In the description.css file, if I float the .panel class, it forces 
IE/Mac
users to have to scroll horizontally to view the whole page. If I 
remove the
float: left; spec, the .results class div gets pushed down below the 
.panel

class div.

I'd like for the .results div and the .panel div to appear side by 
side.


That is a known bug in IE Mac. You have a floated block nested in a td 
within a whole bunch of tables. Took me quite a while to drill through 
to reach it in the DomInspector.


Here is the documentation for that bug, including samples and possible 
workarounds:



.result {display:inline-block; float: none} will probably fix that. 
Serve to IE Mac only.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh


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Re: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[Keith Sader]

Could you post a pice of the problematic CSS for the list?

thanks

On 9/22/05, Nancy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
> First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,
> but only IE on the PC and Mac.  Very frustrating.
> Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site.
--
Keith Sader
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.saderfamily.org/roller/page/ksader
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Re: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[Steve Clason]

On 9/22/2005 7:26 PM Nancy Smith wrote:

I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,
but only IE on the PC and Mac.  Very frustrating. 
Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site. 


http://www.wminc.biz


Hi Nancy,

This isn't a CSS issue, but your images don't show up because they 
aren't on the server, at least not where you think they are.  This 
should be an image, according to your markup:


http://www.wminc.biz/newinside.jpg

but that URL generates a 404 error.

You might make sure the images have been uploaded to the server, and to 
what directory.


The main reason IE renders differently from Gecko browsers is that your 
host is serving your style sheet as "Content-Type: text/plain", which 
Gecko (rightly) refuses to treat as a style sheet (should be 
"Content-type:text/css", if memory serves.)


You'll have to get that stuff right and then we can help you if any CSS 
issues remain.


--
Steve Clason
Web Design and Development
Boulder, Colorado, USA
www.topdogstrategy.com
(303)818-8590

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Re: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[James Wanless]

Clean up your stylesheet for formatting and validation. Not that I 'tested'
it, but HTML at the very top of the file is probably preventing Mozilla
based browsers from interpretting it.

As a bit of another tip, you can optimize the size of your stylesheet by
putting all the padding attributes, etc, in one declaration. Similarly with
borders, etc.

Unless your images are referred to in the stylesheet as backgrounds, and
even if they are, ensure all your paths are correct. It seems you refer to
many things from the root of the site. Organizing your architecture
logically will go a long way to preventing this.

Cheers;
jdw


On 9/22/05, Nancy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
> First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,
> but only IE on the PC and Mac. Very frustrating.
> Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site.
>
> http://www.wminc.biz
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> __
> css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
> Supported by evolt.org  --
> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
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Re: [css-d] Forms

[Rob Cochrane]

Alan Gutierrez wrote:

A newbie question on styling forms.



A structure question...

What elements do I use to markup structure? DL/DT/DD? UL/LI?



For me label is a pretty logical way of marking up forms along with 
fieldset all are designed to work in a form. IE has some presentation 
issues with legend and persists in styling it blue unless you 
specifically alter it to another colour. Someone with a deep knowledge 
of Cascading may be able to say why.


Display the labels as block with width and you can then flow them, clear 
them all along with the inputs.


Here is an excellent article:
http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/InForm/index.htm

Rob
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Re: [css-d] Why don't my images appear on site?

[David Laakso]

Nancy Smith wrote:


I am doing my first CSS site and it is a killer.
First, it doesn't look right in Foxfire or Monzilla,
but only IE on the PC and Mac.


Code for FF. Hack IE.

 Very frustrating. 
Second, none of my jpegs show up on the site. 
 


Images that do not appear in FF seldom have to due with CSS.


http://www.wminc.biz

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
 




FWIW, see:

and:
Captures:

Suggestion:
Read again what I sent you off-list the day before yesterday.

Best,
dL


--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com

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[css-d] Poor CSS work processes

[Andrew Gregory]

Hi all,

Here's a quote from a recent post, which I've modified to make a point.  
I've removed the attribution, as my intention is not to single out any  
person in particular, but to make an observation about something I've seen  
with disappointing regularity:


I recognize the frustration with browser A. Who here hasn't finisheda  
beautiful layout in browser B, and then screamed obscenities and 
frightened coworkers and family when you saw how browser A mangledyour  
beautiful and validated work? I know I have!


Browsers A and B can be *any* browser. The problem is the work process by  
which a design is only checked in one, maybe two browsers while the  
development proceeds, then when everything is "finished" it is checked in  
more browsers.


Software engineering has been slowing moving towards a maxim of "test  
early, test often". It's taken many years to get there, but unit testing  
is now a common practice. Perhaps it's because a lot of web designers are  
more "artist" than "engineer" that that doesn't seem to be happening in  
this field? Not that I have anything against artists! :-)


Most people will have a list of browsers they'd like their sites to work  
with. The exact list is not important. What is important is that if you're  
going to check your site in browser X, then you start checking right from  
the beginning, not at the very end!


As a user of a minority browser (Opera), I perhaps see the results of lack  
of testing more often than others. I've lost count of the number of times  
I've found a one or two-line fix for a web designer oversight.


Many studies have found that the earlier bugs are found, the cheaper,  
quicker, and easier they are to fix. That applies to web design too.


I hope more of you might consider earlier testing. I expect the result  
would be happier web designers, and more robust cross-browser designs.


Thanks for reading!

--
Andrew Gregory, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/ >
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