Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

flw wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> ---
> >> Richard makes some good points as far as it
> goes.
> >> My criticism is that his examples
> >> of fascism are too one dimensional. He
> basically
> >> relates to "bottom up" fascism. What
> >> we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is
> >> "top down" fascism.
> >>
> >> A long term plan through a partnership between
> the
> >> political class (politico-paths) and the
> Corporate
> >> Elite to destroy individual freedom through
> >> Corporate Statism.
> >>
> >> Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the
> Elite
> >> and the sheer joy of power exercised by the
> >> political class.
> >> flw
> >
> >Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW
> points to.
> >It is not the political philosophy of choice by
> the current
> >crop though. They are too liberal. This will
> change with
> >the continued failure of their economic plans for
> the world.
> >
> >They could easily be replaced by corporate
> fascists like the
> >ones that populated the Reagan administration
> during the cold
> >war.
> >
> >We are not there yet. The subject is premature,
> and the paranoia
> >is overblown.
> >
> >Joshua2
>
> My God man! Look about you! Not there yet? The
> journey of 1000 miles is near its
> end. The locomotive engineer can see the station
> in the distance.
>
> To make a distinction between the current crop of
> "liberals" and the Reagan "conservatives"is like
> trying to make a distinction between Robert (let
> them eat interest) Rubin, Madeline (bombs away)
> Albright and James Baker and George Schultz. These
> corrupt Statists are all peas from the same pod.

Yes they are. I was referring more to the background groups
like The Committee on the Present Danger and their ilk. Old
george shultz and many others among the conservatives were
about as fascist as they could get away with being, and
that wasn't " fascism " either.

> Do you really mean what you posted or are you a
> victim of MK ULTRA?
> FLW

I mean what I posted. I spent a brief time in Greece when
the Colonels were running it. That was a fascist state.
Not Nazi fascism mind you, but fascist none the less. What
you have here is nothing like the fear that people conducted
their lives under.

These exaggerations are silly. It's like you guys ( Libertarians
and Paranoids ) have gone off the deep end. There are groups in
this country  which face a fascist government daily in their
lives. You middle class white guys with computers are not among
them yet.

Chill out. Making you crazy fuckers get a license for a gun is
not fascism even if Hitler did it too.

Joshua2

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Gerry Forbes]

 -Caveat Lector-

Howard Davis wrote:

>
>   So now I do not have the single question of whether or not it
>happened, but now I have two questions, first: Why did the allies do
>nothing about it?
>   After the above was released I expected a lot of discussion on the
>above question. I did not see any on the major news web sites. Then last
>fall I went by the Holocaust Museum in Washington. I went by the library
>there to see what they had on this. The librarian knew nothing about it
>and even questioned if I might be mistaken. And, I could find nothing in
>any of the Journals they carried about this revelation. The second
>question, of course, is why not? Something is very fishy about this
>whole thing. You would think that there would have been a lot more about
>it in the news then, for instance, the Nazi gold in Switzerland. Also,
>the documents should set the total number killed much more accurately
>then was possible previously. Any ideas?
>
>Howard Davis


Do you know any popular history that isn't simplified to a
few basic points? Any that doesn't have clearly delineated
good guys and bad guys? And it seems that the main defence
against Holocaust deniers is to simplify further and focus
all of the blame on those who committed the genocide and
none on those who may have been complicit through acts of
omission. The whole effect is to turn the Holocaust into
an historical icon which has no meaning outside of itself;
all those resolutions of "Never again" are as firm as a
blade of grass in a hurricane.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that this information is as
suppressed as you imply (although it is surprising that
the Holocaust museum professes to have no knowledge of it).
I recall hearing Allied excuses years ago and I believe that
there were a few posts on this list some weeks ago about
whether or not the train tracks to Auschwitz should have been
bombed.

Nevertheless your concerns have some resonance with a
current scandal that made a blip in the news and then
disappeared: who knew what, and when, and failed to act on
that information to prevent the genocide in Rwanda.
Put Dallaire+Rwanda into a search engine to get the dirty
details, but here are some of the highlights:
-- General Dallaire asks for authorization to confiscate an
arms cache. Not only is permission refused but Dallaire is
instructed to relay his informant's intelligence and the
U.N. decision not to act to the Rwandan president and his
political party, even though they were the very people who
were planning the massacre. (btw that's Gen. ROMEO Dallaire,
an apt name for a peacekeeper: see Romeo &Juliet Act 3, Sc. 1)
-- Dallaire faxed the U.N. quoting a senior Rwandan security
official as saying he had been ordered to register all Tutsis
in Kigali for the purpose, he suspected, of "their extermination"
Kofi Annan is head of peacekeeping operations at this time.
-- Dallaire comes up with a plan to break the momentum of the
slaughter. The U.N. Security Council dithers and the idea is
finally scotched when Bill Clinton refuses to allow the use
of American planes to transport troops from Nigeria and Ghana
to Rwanda. (The Ghanaians probably come out best in the whole
affair. The general in charge of their meagre forces already
in Rwanda disobeys a direct order from the U.N. to evacuate,
saving 5-10,000 Rwandans.) Later analysis of Dallaire's plan
by Gen. Schroeder of the Carnegie Corp. suggests that it had a
good chance of working and certainly could have been no worse
than the U.N.'s (in)action.
-- Dallaire and other U.N. officials are refused permission to
testify at a Belgian inquiry. Annan cites "diplomatic immunity"
and claims that all necessary information had already been
furnished by the U.N. Coverup? (the Belgians are pissed at
Dallaire because he dawdled while their soldiers were killed;
Dallaire had been negotiating for the safety of the Rwandan
prime minister, but she was probably already dead at the time)
Annan later waives diplomatic immunity to allow Dallaire to
testify at the trial of the Rwandan massacrists. Apparently his
testimony regarding the insanity of the situation is to be
used to mitigate the sentences of the killers.

And so on. About a year ago a black Congresswoman from Georgia
was pressing to find out what Clinton knew, and when he knew it,
but apparently there's something about black Congresswomen that
makes their voices inaudible to the media. But blaming Clinton
won't help, especially with analysis from the Carnegie Corp.:
  

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

---
>> Richard makes some good points as far as it
goes.
>> My criticism is that his examples
>> of fascism are too one dimensional. He
basically
>> relates to "bottom up" fascism. What
>> we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is
>> "top down" fascism.
>>
>> A long term plan through a partnership between
the
>> political class (politico-paths) and the
Corporate
>> Elite to destroy individual freedom through
>> Corporate Statism.
>>
>> Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the
Elite
>> and the sheer joy of power exercised by the
>> political class.
>> flw
>
>Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW
points to.
>It is not the political philosophy of choice by
the current
>crop though. They are too liberal. This will
change with
>the continued failure of their economic plans for
the world.
>
>They could easily be replaced by corporate
fascists like the
>ones that populated the Reagan administration
during the cold
>war.
>
>We are not there yet. The subject is premature,
and the paranoia
>is overblown.
>
>Joshua2

My God man! Look about you! Not there yet? The
journey of 1000 miles is near its
end. The locomotive engineer can see the station
in the distance.

To make a distinction between the current crop of
"liberals" and the Reagan "conservatives"is like
trying to make a distinction between Robert (let
them eat interest) Rubin, Madeline (bombs away)
Albright and James Baker and George Schultz. These
corrupt Statists are all peas from the same pod.

Do you really mean what you posted or are you a
victim of MK ULTRA?
FLW

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

flw wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> >
> >What i find most interesting with this current
> debate is the distinct
> >lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL
> community. In particular
> >regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know
> for sure we have a large
> >number of UK members on this list including the
> outspoken M.A.R.K.
> >(psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my
> comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2
> >and Alamaine).
> >
> >With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right
> parties throughout Europe
> >and America, especially during the 1980's, we
> have been alerted to the
> >presence
> >of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country.
>
>  lot of catching up to do
>  and Fascist ideals
>  build a strong, meaningful and
>  essential of lists.  Come on CTRL,
>  
> Richard makes some good points as far as it goes.
> My criticism is that his examples
> of fascism are too one dimensional. He basically
> relates to "bottom up" fascism. What
> we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is
> "top down" fascism.
>
> A long term plan through a partnership between the
> political class (politico-paths) and the Corporate
> Elite to destroy individual freedom through
> Corporate Statism.
>
> Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the Elite
> and the sheer joy of power exercised by the
> political class.
> flw

Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW points to.
It is not the political philosophy of choice by the current
crop though. They are too liberal. This will change with
the continued failure of their economic plans for the world.

They could easily be replaced by corporate fascists like the
ones that populated the Reagan administration during the cold
war.

We are not there yet. The subject is premature, and the paranoia
is overblown.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Source - Richard]

 -Caveat Lector-

Do you REALLY write Frasier?? What happens to Daphne and Niles in the
next series??

Brown, Jeremy wrote:
>This message contains more text than QuickMail can display.
>The complete text has been enclosed as a file.
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>You know, this whole thing takes me back to the time when I wrote "A
Tale of
>Two Cities". It took quite a while to finish it, though, as I was busy
with
>the Polio vaccine at the same time, as well as having just returned from
>walking on the moon.  Of course, none of this compares to the work I had
to
>do on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". That George Martin is a
real
>douchebag.  Well, I'd love to keep talking about this, but I have to go
and
>accept my Oscar for directing "Saving Private Ryan" and my emmy for my
>writing on "Frasier".
>
>Richard
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: MARK [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:49 AM
>> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>>
>>  -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong,  Again you are falsely claiming credit for which
>> you should not.  The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact
written
>> by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no
>> reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own,
>> (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism -
more
>> than a state of mind" back in 1993).
>>
>> I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if
>> you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own,
>> measures will have to be taken.
>>
>> M.A.R.K.
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> > Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30
>> > To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>> >
>> >  -Caveat Lector-
>> >
>> > M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you
trip
>> > and fall upon your own dagger.
>> > It was me  who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me
who
>> > published it and me who distributed it.
>> >
>> > Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take
stuff
>> > away.
>> >
>> > Richard B.
>> >
>> > MARK wrote:
>> > > -Caveat Lector-
>> > >
>> > >Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they
>> > were
>> > >published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"
freely
>> > >available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous
>> > increase
>> > >in public awarenss.
>> > >
>> > >I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU
>> > claim
>> > >them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.
>> > >
>> > >M.A.R.K.
>> > >
>> > >> -Original Message-
>> > >> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> > >> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
>> > >> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>> > >>
>> > >>  -Caveat Lector-
>> > >>
>> > >> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the
>> > distinct
>> > >> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
>> > >> particular
>> > >> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have
a
>> > >> large
>> > >> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken
M.A.R.K.
>> > >> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
>> > >> Teo1000, flw, J2
>> > >> and Alamaine).
>> > >>
>> > >> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
>> > >> Europe
>> > >> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted
to
>> > the
>> > >> presence
>> > >> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September
>> > 1993,
>> > >> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
>> > >> council seat
>> > >> in
>> > >> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he
>>

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Gavin Phillips]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-01-31 16:42:46 EST, you write:

<< But none of this is real democracy. The writer said so himself
 >earlier.It's Fascism diguised as democracy. Fascism is Capitalism plus
 state
 >power.
 >
 >Joshua2

 I don't think so. Fascism = Communism = Statism.

 There is no effective difference between Fascism, Communism. They are both
 Statism.

 The Communists replaced the Owner Elite with the Party Elite.
 The Fascists left the Owner  Elite but made them subservient to The Party.
 Hitler's plan was for The Party to then replace the Owner Elite with
 the Party Elite.  WWII intervened.

 In the US we have the Owner Elite allied with the Polito Paths. One supplies
 money, the other supplies them services. Smiley Face Fascism/ Corporate
 Socialism. Suits and ties rather then Brownshirts or Red Banners.
 People broken by the IRS rather then the Gestapo.

 Why bother to put them in camps, just take their money, businesses or
 professions. They will then become Nonpersons. Sad shells that put the fear
 of God (The Govt?) in others who have politically incorrect thoughts.

 The really obstreperous ones? Gas and burn them. They are only "cultists."
 Show it live on CNN. The Attorney General will proudly take credit for
 the massacre and "the media" will applaud her.

 God Bless America!
 flw
  >>

I agree 99% with you flw. Who gives a shit about the other 1%. Gavin.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

flw wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> --
> >>
> >>  What is interesting is that European Fascists also
> claimed "victimhood".
> >>  Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of
> Victimhood is a time honored
> >>  Fascist Rite.
> >>
> >>  "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin
> with them".
> >>  flw
> >>   >>
> >>
> >> A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today.
> He said that the only
> >> difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that
> they got to wear
> >> "really cool uniforms" and we don't.  The Fourth Reich is
> alive and well in
> >> the good old US of A.
> >> Teo1000
> >
> >This is only true for some minorities and political views.
> Otherwise,
> >the above statements are way exaggerated as far as most
> Americans are concerned.
> >
> >J2
>
> Hmm. Many Germans thought the same thing in the early
> 1930's.
> flw

Hey. I'm not defending fascists. I'm just saying that there is too
much exaggeration going on here.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 2/2/99 6:08:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

<< And, I could find nothing in
 any of the Journals they carried about this revelation. The second
 question, of course, is why not? Something is very fishy about this
 whole thing. You would think that there would have been a lot more about
 it in the news then, for instance, the Nazi gold in Switzerland. Also,
 the documents should set the total number killed much more accurately
 then was possible previously. Any ideas?

 Howard Davis >>

Well, as to why you could find nothing out about the allies knowledge of the
Holocaust it seems to me to be perfectly obvious.  They do not want to
implicate themselves in the mass murder by allowing the fact that they knew
what was going on to get out.  It would show them guilty for complicity for
not doing something about it at the time or at least denouncing the Germans
and their genocidal efforts at the time.  It also would explain Britains
desire to give the Jews Palestine after the war as a sort of payoff.  There is
much more to the issue as well, I believe that there were many people in both
the American political machine and military, as well as in Britain who saw
nothing wrong with the wholesale slaughter and thus did nothing to bring it to
light until later when it served their purposes.  The fault for what happened
is not only Germany's that's for sure.
Teo1000

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

Source - Richard wrote:
>

>
> I still believe many of you on the list have a lot of catching up to do
> regarding the current resurgance of the Neo-nazis and Fascist ideals
> amongst todays society, and hope that we can build a strong, meaningful and
> hopefully effective discussion on this most essential of lists.  Come on CTRL,
> pull your socks up!!!
>

As, I believe, you do as well. Who do you think is behind this movement
and what is their purpose in pushing it?
   About two years ago I spent a great deal of time studying the
question of whether or not the Holocaust happened as we are taught in
the schools and media. I went at it as neutral as possible, realizing
long before my studies began that we are lied to constantly. In fact, at
the end of my studies I came to the conclusion that the Holocaust was
not truthfully portrayed by our common history books. So, I guess you
might call me a "revisionist". However, the anomalies that had lead many
to doubt the whole genocide story lead me to believe that, in fact, that
the British intelligence had known through their ability to break the
German codes of details of the Holocaust from near its beginning. And, I
believe that this has been one of the reasons why no debate on this
subject is allowed. For it was obvious to me after a while that many
details of the Holocaust which the deniers were bringing out could only
be explained by the fact that British Intelligence had known from the
beginning. I gave a speech at a meeting in Atlanta to a group called
"Americans for Lawful Government" reporting my findings. It was well
received and of those few members who had been leaning towards the
denier's position, most saw the error of their arguments and renounced
them and the rest stopped attending. During my speech I mentioned my
belief that the British Intelligence had known of the systematic
killings. Less then a month later AP verified my belief in the following
report:

 Documents show Britain was
 aware of Holocaust

 Secret transcripts follow killings
 'as they happened'

 May 19, 1997
 Web posted at: 11:14 p.m. EDT (0314 GMT)

 LONDON (AP) -- Winston Churchill
 and other British leaders knew Nazi
 Germany was killing Jews from the
 first massacres in June 1941 to the final
 concentration camp gassings in 1945,
 according to intelligence documents released
Monday.

 The previously classified transcripts of German
police radio
 messages, intercepted by British code-breakers,
show senior
 officials knew where Jews were being killed almost
from day to
 day.

 As Hitler's Third Reich conquered most of Europe
and marched
 into the Soviet Union, the transcripts document the executions
 that followed -- some involving just a few Jews and
others tens
 of thousands.

 It has long been known that Allied leaders were
aware of the
 genocide before it became widespread public
knowledge. But the
 hundreds of pages of documents released Monday suggest
 senior wartime British officials had more
information about the
 killing than previously believed.

 "What these records reveal is how
 much the British knew of the atrocities
 as they were happening," said John
 Fox, a lecturer in Jewish
history and
 Holocaust studies at Jew's
College in
 London.

 Britain was able to obtain great
 amounts of enemy material
because it
 broke Germany's top-secret code -- nicknamed
Enigma. The
 information was given only to Churchill and a few senior
 intelligence officials.

 Last fall, the U.S. National Security Agency
declassified a
 handful of documents from the Public Record Office,
the British
 government's archive.

 The records, which were loaned to the U.S.
government in 1981
 to aid in its war crimes investigation, revealed
that the British
 knew the Nazis were systematically killing Jews in
the Soviet
 Union as early as June 1941.

 That was more than a year earlier than previously
 acknowledged. It was not until December 17, 1942,
that the
 

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Brown, Jeremy]

 -Caveat Lector-

You know, this whole thing takes me back to the time when I wrote "A Tale of
Two Cities". It took quite a while to finish it, though, as I was busy with
the Polio vaccine at the same time, as well as having just returned from
walking on the moon.  Of course, none of this compares to the work I had to
do on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". That George Martin is a real
douchebag.  Well, I'd love to keep talking about this, but I have to go and
accept my Oscar for directing "Saving Private Ryan" and my emmy for my
writing on "Frasier".

Richard

> -Original Message-
> From: MARK [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:49 AM
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong,  Again you are falsely claiming credit for which
> you should not.  The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written
> by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no
> reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own,
> (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more
> than a state of mind" back in 1993).
>
> I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if
> you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own,
> measures will have to be taken.
>
> M.A.R.K.
>
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30
> > To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
> >
> >  -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip
> > and fall upon your own dagger.
> > It was me  who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who
> > published it and me who distributed it.
> >
> > Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff
> > away.
> >
> > Richard B.
> >
> > MARK wrote:
> > > -Caveat Lector-
> > >
> > >Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they
> > were
> > >published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"  freely
> > >available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous
> > increase
> > >in public awarenss.
> > >
> > >I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU
> > claim
> > >them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.
> > >
> > >M.A.R.K.
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
> > >> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
> > >>
> > >>  -Caveat Lector-
> > >>
> > >> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the
> > distinct
> > >> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
> > >> particular
> > >> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a
> > >> large
> > >> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K.
> > >> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
> > >> Teo1000, flw, J2
> > >> and Alamaine).
> > >>
> > >> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
> > >> Europe
> > >> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to
> > the
> > >> presence
> > >> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September
> > 1993,
> > >> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
> > >> council seat
> > >> in
> > >> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he
> > increased
> > >> his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists
> > as
> > >> a
> > >> bunch of
> > >> skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than
> > >> then
> > >> on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs'
> > does
> > >> hold
> > >> true for
> > >> the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by
> > >> small
> > >> cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi
&g

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 2/2/99 10:14:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< The Neo-Nazi revival
 is not just a
 mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996),
 but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority
 opinion (take note Teo1000).
  >>

I fail to see what you are asking me to take note of.  This is nothing
different from what I believe of the movement.  Fascism has been alive and
well for a long time.  After W.W.II it had to go underground for a time but
retained much of it's power covertly.  Now fascists take on different labels
and are using all of the resources that are available to any political party
or other powerful group in order to sway opinion cause societal change and
gain power.  I can't really speak of Britain, but it is apparent that we have
a strong fascist (Nazi) underground movement in the USA.  What we see of
"skinheads" and tattooed yahoos beating up gay men and marching in parades
with the ridiculous KKK and other groups is only a small portion of the
movement and it is put in the public limelight for a specific reason,
ridicule.  This way the more "reasonable" elements of the movement, three-
piece-business-suit-wearing men with degrees, and "well thought out" plans for
solving the "racial war/problem", and ideas to help us deal with the
"criminal" element, and save us from the rising tide of immigration which is
damaging to out "nationhood", are seen in a positive light and not associated
with the fascism that is decried in popular media.
Teo1000

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>
>What i find most interesting with this current
debate is the distinct
>lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL
community. In particular
>regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know
for sure we have a large
>number of UK members on this list including the
outspoken M.A.R.K.
>(psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my
comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2
>and Alamaine).
>
>With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right
parties throughout Europe
>and America, especially during the 1980's, we
have been alerted to the
>presence
>of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country.

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Source - Richard]

 -Caveat Lector-

Pure fluff and twaddle.

MARK wrote:
>This message contains more text than QuickMail can display.
>The complete text has been enclosed as a file.
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>Wrong, wrong, wrong,  Again you are falsely claiming credit for which
>you should not.  The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written
>by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no
>reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own,
>(As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more
>than a state of mind" back in 1993).
>
>I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if
>you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own,
>measures will have to be taken.
>
>M.A.R.K.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30
>> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>>
>>  -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip
>> and fall upon your own dagger.
>> It was me  who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who
>> published it and me who distributed it.
>>
>> Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff
>> away.
>>
>> Richard B.
>>
>> MARK wrote:
>> > -Caveat Lector-
>> >
>> >Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they
>> were
>> >published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"  freely
>> >available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous
>> increase
>> >in public awarenss.
>> >
>> >I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU
>> claim
>> >them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.
>> >
>> >M.A.R.K.
>> >
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> >> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
>> >> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>> >>
>> >>  -Caveat Lector-
>> >>
>> >> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the
>> distinct
>> >> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
>> >> particular
>> >> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a
>> >> large
>> >> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K.
>> >> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
>> >> Teo1000, flw, J2
>> >> and Alamaine).
>> >>
>> >> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
>> >> Europe
>> >> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to
>> the
>> >> presence
>> >> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September
>> 1993,
>> >> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
>> >> council seat
>> >> in
>> >> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he
>> increased
>> >> his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists
>> as
>> >> a
>> >> bunch of
>> >> skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than
>> >> then
>> >> on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs'
>> does
>> >> hold
>> >> true for
>> >> the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by
>> >> small
>> >> cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi
>> >> revival
>> >> is not just a
>> >> mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter,
>> 1996),
>> >> but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway
>> majority
>> >> opinion (take note Teo1000).
>> >>
>> >> How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in
>> a
>> >> Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most
>> >> importantly, by not
>> >> appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous
>> suggestion
>> >> last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the
>> American
>> >> 

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[MARK]

 -Caveat Lector-

Wrong, wrong, wrong,  Again you are falsely claiming credit for which
you should not.  The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written
by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no
reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own,
(As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more
than a state of mind" back in 1993).

I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if
you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own,
measures will have to be taken.

M.A.R.K.

> -Original Message-
> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:      Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip
> and fall upon your own dagger.
> It was me  who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who
> published it and me who distributed it.
>
> Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff
> away.
>
> Richard B.
>
> MARK wrote:
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> >Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they
> were
> >published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"  freely
> >available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous
> increase
> >in public awarenss.
> >
> >I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU
> claim
> >them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.
> >
> >M.A.R.K.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-
> >> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
> >> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
> >>
> >>  -Caveat Lector-
> >>
> >> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the
> distinct
> >> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
> >> particular
> >> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a
> >> large
> >> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K.
> >> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
> >> Teo1000, flw, J2
> >> and Alamaine).
> >>
> >> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
> >> Europe
> >> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to
> the
> >> presence
> >> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September
> 1993,
> >> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
> >> council seat
> >> in
> >> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he
> increased
> >> his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists
> as
> >> a
> >> bunch of
> >> skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than
> >> then
> >> on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs'
> does
> >> hold
> >> true for
> >> the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by
> >> small
> >> cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi
> >> revival
> >> is not just a
> >> mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter,
> 1996),
> >> but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway
> majority
> >> opinion (take note Teo1000).
> >>
> >> How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in
> a
> >> Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most
> >> importantly, by not
> >> appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous
> suggestion
> >> last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the
> American
> >> Nazi
> >> Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that:
> >> "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the
> mire
> >> of
> >> the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he
> >> had
> >> not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British
> >> public
> >> were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide
> >> behind
> >> the
> >> Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to
> go
> &

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Source - Richard]

 -Caveat Lector-

M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon 
your own dagger.
It was me  who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and 
me who distributed it.

Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away.

Richard B.

MARK wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were
>published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"  freely
>available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase
>in public awarenss.
>
>I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim
>them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.
>
>M.A.R.K.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
>> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>>
>>  -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct
>> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
>> particular
>> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a
>> large
>> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K.
>> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
>> Teo1000, flw, J2
>> and Alamaine).
>>
>> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
>> Europe
>> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the
>> presence
>> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993,
>> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
>> council seat
>> in
>> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased
>> his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as
>> a
>> bunch of
>> skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than
>> then
>> on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does
>> hold
>> true for
>> the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by
>> small
>> cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi
>> revival
>> is not just a
>> mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996),
>> but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority
>> opinion (take note Teo1000).
>>
>> How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a
>> Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most
>> importantly, by not
>> appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion
>> last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American
>> Nazi
>> Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that:
>> "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire
>> of
>> the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he
>> had
>> not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British
>> public
>> were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide
>> behind
>> the
>> Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go
>> public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable,
>> 1991).
>> Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction
>> of
>> social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring
>> themselves
>> to be
>> openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that
>> time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel
>> symbol,
>> and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi
>> organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using
>> patriotism
>> to
>> get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other
>> secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad.
>>
>> We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least
>> three
>> of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first
>> two are
>> Consistancy and Rigidity. A minority that remains consistant in it's
>> argument is more likely to influence a majority, than one that is
>> inconsistant. The
>> Neo-Fascists remain undaunted in their convictions that events such as
>> the holocaust did not happen, their racist views and especially their
>> anti-

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[MARK]

 -Caveat Lector-

Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were
published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat"  freely
available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase
in public awarenss.

I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim
them as your own.  You are a Charlatan and a Fraud.

M.A.R.K.

> -Original Message-
> From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct
> lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In
> particular
> regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a
> large
> number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K.
> (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly
> Teo1000, flw, J2
> and Alamaine).
>
> With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout
> Europe
> and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the
> presence
> of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993,
> Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a
> council seat
> in
> East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased
> his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as
> a
> bunch of
> skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than
> then
> on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does
> hold
> true for
> the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by
> small
> cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi
> revival
> is not just a
> mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996),
> but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority
> opinion (take note Teo1000).
>
> How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a
> Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most
> importantly, by not
> appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion
> last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American
> Nazi
> Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that:
> "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire
> of
> the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he
> had
> not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British
> public
> were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide
> behind
> the
> Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go
> public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable,
> 1991).
> Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction
> of
> social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring
> themselves
> to be
> openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that
> time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel
> symbol,
> and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi
> organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using
> patriotism
> to
> get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other
> secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad.
>
> We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least
> three
> of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first
> two are
> Consistancy and Rigidity. A minority that remains consistant in it's
> argument is more likely to influence a majority, than one that is
> inconsistant. The
> Neo-Fascists remain undaunted in their convictions that events such as
> the holocaust did not happen, their racist views and especially their
> anti-Semitism
> have lead Nazi Revisionists such as David Irving, for who the BNP
> supply
> 'bodyguards', to publish articles and books in an attempt to rewrite a
> history
> that is against them. In BNP literature a study by none other than
> Hans
> Eysenck that appears to support the belief that whites are more
> intelligent
> than
> blacks, is constantly referred to without reference to criticisms of
> Eysencks methodology, or reference to counter-arguments or alternative
> interpretations
> of the data. Labov's (1970) study into 'Black English' is a good
> example
> of how scientists can interpret data incorrectly. Labov (1970) and
> Stewart
> (1970)

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order

[Source - Richard]

ECTED]; Tue, 2
Feb
>  1999 09:09:53 -0500
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>From: flw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"
>To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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==
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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

--
>>
>>  What is interesting is that European Fascists also
claimed "victimhood".
>>  Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of
Victimhood is a time honored
>>  Fascist Rite.
>>
>>  "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin
with them".
>>  flw
>>   >>
>>
>> A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today.
He said that the only
>> difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that
they got to wear
>> "really cool uniforms" and we don't.  The Fourth Reich is
alive and well in
>> the good old US of A.
>> Teo1000
>
>This is only true for some minorities and political views.
Otherwise,
>the above statements are way exaggerated as far as most
Americans are concerned.
>
>J2

Hmm. Many Germans thought the same thing in the early
1930's.
flw

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 2/1/99 4:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< > A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today.  He said that the
only
 > difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear
 > "really cool uniforms" and we don't.  The Fourth Reich is alive and well in
 > the good old US of A.
 > Teo1000

 This is only true for some minorities and political views. Otherwise,
 the above
 statements are way exaggerated as far as most Americans are concerned.

 J2
  >>

This might be true in an operative sense, but I do believe that we are just
one step away from tyranny.  There IS much exaggeration on both sides of this
issue; the "Patriots" say we live in an oppressive Nazi regime where we have
no freedoms left, while the "left" tells us that all is well on the home
front.  The truth is in between somewhere, BUT IMO it is leaning heavily in
the direction of fascistic "Nazi-like" tyranny.
We DO have a measure of freedom left to us, but anyone who examines things can
see that those freedoms that we do have are dwindling under the oppressiveness
of national law and statute, as well as corporate constructs which are
supported by the government in a very fascistic way I might add.
So the statement may be exaggeration but not much IMO.
Teo1000

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Teo One Thousand wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/30/99 4:40:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> << Mike is so right.
>
>  The difference between 1930's European Fascism and present day US Fascism
>  is the lack of military style uniforms. The American Fascist leaders wear
>  suit and ties and rant about Group Rghts. Their shock troops wear jeans and
>  sneakers, not black shirts.
>
>  What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood".
>  Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored
>  Fascist Rite.
>
>  "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them".
>  flw
>   >>
>
> A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today.  He said that the only
> difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear
> "really cool uniforms" and we don't.  The Fourth Reich is alive and well in
> the good old US of A.
> Teo1000

This is only true for some minorities and political views. Otherwise,
the above
statements are way exaggerated as far as most Americans are concerned.

J2

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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>But none of this is real democracy. The writer said so himself
>earlier.It's Fascism diguised as democracy. Fascism is Capitalism plus
state
>power.
>
>Joshua2

I don't think so. Fascism = Communism = Statism.

There is no effective difference between Fascism, Communism. They are both
Statism.

The Communists replaced the Owner Elite with the Party Elite.
The Fascists left the Owner  Elite but made them subservient to The Party.
Hitler's plan was for The Party to then replace the Owner Elite with
the Party Elite.  WWII intervened.

In the US we have the Owner Elite allied with the Polito Paths. One supplies
money, the other supplies them services. Smiley Face Fascism/ Corporate
Socialism. Suits and ties rather then Brownshirts or Red Banners.
People broken by the IRS rather then the Gestapo.

Why bother to put them in camps, just take their money, businesses or
professions. They will then become Nonpersons. Sad shells that put the fear
of God (The Govt?) in others who have politically incorrect thoughts.

The really obstreperous ones? Gas and burn them. They are only "cultists."
Show it live on CNN. The Attorney General will proudly take credit for
the massacre and "the media" will applaud her.

God Bless America!
flw

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==
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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/30/99 4:40:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

<< Mike is so right.

 The difference between 1930's European Fascism and present day US Fascism
 is the lack of military style uniforms. The American Fascist leaders wear
 suit and ties and rant about Group Rghts. Their shock troops wear jeans and
 sneakers, not black shirts.

 What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood".
 Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored
 Fascist Rite.

 "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them".
 flw
  >>

A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today.  He said that the only
difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear
"really cool uniforms" and we don't.  The Fourth Reich is alive and well in
the good old US of A.
Teo1000

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: Mike Moxley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:50 AM
Subject: Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"


>
>Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"
>
>Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain
>
>On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story,
>originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of
>U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new
>international order, one that would revamp existing global
>institutions and spawn entirely new ones (SNIP)..

Mike is so right.

The difference between 1930's European Fascism and present day US Fascism
is the lack of military style uniforms. The American Fascist leaders wear
suit and ties and rant about Group Rghts. Their shock troops wear jeans and
sneakers, not black shirts.

What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood".
Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored
Fascist Rite.

"Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them".
flw

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/30/99 1:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< I think that this is a very informative post, but it comes to some
 phony conclusions. -- J2
 -
 Mike Moxley wrote:
 >
 >  -Caveat Lector-
 >
 > Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"
 >
 > Madeleine Albright Makes it Plai >>

Quick, Joshua II, tell me what are the phony conclusions.  I want to feel
better about things.  Prudy

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/30/99 1:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< > decades, there are now officers who routinely commit robberies while
 > off-duty. >>

Ours no longer have to wait.  Prudy

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

I think that this is a very informative post, but it comes to some
phony conclusions. -- J2
-
Mike Moxley wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"
>
> Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain
>
> On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story,
> originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of
> U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new
> international order, one that would revamp existing global
> institutions and spawn entirely new ones." According to the L.A.
> Times, Albright is referring to "the new order" as a kind of
> "international democracy club" where the U.S. would be the "organizing
> principle." "The 21st century ... ought to be the century of
> democracy," Albright told the L.A. Times. "We're going to be putting
> an awful lot more emphasis on organizing the democracies, working with
> them ... so they can work with each other better." Only those who
> understand what kind of "democracy" she's talking about know what this
> means for the world.
>
> In case the reader fails to grasp the meaning behind Albright's
> government-speak, we will translate. "Organize" means nothing less
> than "control", and this "new international order" means "world wide
> control." Albright said that "we [the foreign policy establishment]
> are the organizing principle." Other nations will "either organize
> with us or against us," she declared, meaning that those nations who
> won't play ball will be branded as pariahs and ostracized by the
> international community. When Albright says "democracy" she really
> means "doing it my way."
>
> Fascism in Democracy's Clothing
>
> In the minds of many well-meaning folks "democracy" is synonymous with
> government of, by, and for "the people", self-determination, rule of
> law and an open society. Often President Clinton claims to be working
> "for the American people," as do many in the U.S. Congress. This is
> the illusion of democracy, but the reality is far different. This
> reality was aptly defined by Noam Chomsky, a self-defined Socialist
> and professor at M.I.T. He wrote:
>
> "Democracy," in the United States rhetoric refers to a system of
> governance in which elite elements based in the business community
> control the state by virtue of their dominance of the private society,
> while the population observes quietly. So understood, democracy is a
> system of elite decision and public ratification, as in the United
> States itself. Correspondingly, popular involvement in the formation
> of public policy is considered a serious threat. It is not a step
> towards democracy; rather it constitutes a 'crisis of democracy' that
> must be overcome. (Noam Chomsky, On Power and Ideology, 1987
>
> The evidence is overwhelming that Albright's "new international order"
> will not be much different from Hitler's "neue ordnung" and
> Mussolini's "ordine nuovo." It is the amalgamation of government and
> big business, as well as state direction of the economy that defines
> fascism, and, when Albright says "democracy" she really means
> "fascism" -- the current form of government in America today.

So far, so good. But. Comparing the situation to Nazi Germany doesn't
work. It doesn't work because the WWII fascists were NATIONALISTS
looking for empire. The globalists are anti nationalist elitists.

>
> Perhaps it was their dedication to Western tradition that led our
> forefathers to mount the Roman fasces behind the Speaker's chair in
> the U.S. House of Representatives. Made up of rods bound about an ax,
> this ancient symbol has appropriately become the trademark of modern
> fascism, "a system of government characterized by dictatorship,
> belligerent nationalism, and racism, militarism, etc..." (Webster's
> New World Dictionary) This "binding up", or as Albright puts it,
> "organizing" of the world's democracies, reveals the truth about her
> definition of democracy. The new order will be totalitarian, on the
> global scale as it is on the local, which indicates what is ahead for
> the world if the 21st century becomes "the century of democracy" as
> Albright and the rest of the foreign policy cabal would like.
>
> Hitler solidified his political power by joining an alliance with the
> industrialists of Germany. In turn, he protected the large
> corporations and extended them favorable treatment. Hitler reigned in
> Nazi radicals who sought to topple big business in what was called
> "the second revolution." On July 1, 1933, Hitler told his S.A. and
> S.S. leaders: "I will suppress every attempt to disturb the existing
> order as ruthlessly as I will deal with the so-called second
> revolution, which would lead only to chaos." (William L. Shirer, The
> Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, 1950)
>
> The marriage of money and demagoguery was consummated in Hitler's
> Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy. While wealth and political power
> have always colluded t

[CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

[Mike Moxley]

 -Caveat Lector-

Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order"

Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain

On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story,
originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of
U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new
international order, one that would revamp existing global
institutions and spawn entirely new ones." According to the L.A.
Times, Albright is referring to "the new order" as a kind of
"international democracy club" where the U.S. would be the "organizing
principle." "The 21st century ... ought to be the century of
democracy," Albright told the L.A. Times. "We're going to be putting
an awful lot more emphasis on organizing the democracies, working with
them ... so they can work with each other better." Only those who
understand what kind of "democracy" she's talking about know what this
means for the world.

In case the reader fails to grasp the meaning behind Albright's
government-speak, we will translate. "Organize" means nothing less
than "control", and this "new international order" means "world wide
control." Albright said that "we [the foreign policy establishment]
are the organizing principle." Other nations will "either organize
with us or against us," she declared, meaning that those nations who
won't play ball will be branded as pariahs and ostracized by the
international community. When Albright says "democracy" she really
means "doing it my way."

Fascism in Democracy's Clothing

In the minds of many well-meaning folks "democracy" is synonymous with
government of, by, and for "the people", self-determination, rule of
law and an open society. Often President Clinton claims to be working
"for the American people," as do many in the U.S. Congress. This is
the illusion of democracy, but the reality is far different. This
reality was aptly defined by Noam Chomsky, a self-defined Socialist
and professor at M.I.T. He wrote:

"Democracy," in the United States rhetoric refers to a system of
governance in which elite elements based in the business community
control the state by virtue of their dominance of the private society,
while the population observes quietly. So understood, democracy is a
system of elite decision and public ratification, as in the United
States itself. Correspondingly, popular involvement in the formation
of public policy is considered a serious threat. It is not a step
towards democracy; rather it constitutes a 'crisis of democracy' that
must be overcome. (Noam Chomsky, On Power and Ideology, 1987)

The evidence is overwhelming that Albright's "new international order"
will not be much different from Hitler's "neue ordnung" and
Mussolini's "ordine nuovo." It is the amalgamation of government and
big business, as well as state direction of the economy that defines
fascism, and, when Albright says "democracy" she really means
"fascism" -- the current form of government in America today.

Perhaps it was their dedication to Western tradition that led our
forefathers to mount the Roman fasces behind the Speaker's chair in
the U.S. House of Representatives. Made up of rods bound about an ax,
this ancient symbol has appropriately become the trademark of modern
fascism, "a system of government characterized by dictatorship,
belligerent nationalism, and racism, militarism, etc..." (Webster's
New World Dictionary) This "binding up", or as Albright puts it,
"organizing" of the world's democracies, reveals the truth about her
definition of democracy. The new order will be totalitarian, on the
global scale as it is on the local, which indicates what is ahead for
the world if the 21st century becomes "the century of democracy" as
Albright and the rest of the foreign policy cabal would like.

Hitler solidified his political power by joining an alliance with the
industrialists of Germany. In turn, he protected the large
corporations and extended them favorable treatment. Hitler reigned in
Nazi radicals who sought to topple big business in what was called
"the second revolution." On July 1, 1933, Hitler told his S.A. and
S.S. leaders: "I will suppress every attempt to disturb the existing
order as ruthlessly as I will deal with the so-called second
revolution, which would lead only to chaos." (William L. Shirer, The
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, 1950)

The marriage of money and demagoguery was consummated in Hitler's
Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy. While wealth and political power
have always colluded to some degree, there comes a point where apathy,
pseudo-tolerance and ignorance binds the will of the masses to a
fanatical idea that brings their destruction. It is this subjective,
enervated, and brain-dead mental state that led the Germans to embrace
the Nazi regime. "The masses are like an animal that obeys its
instincts," Hitler observed of the Germans. "They do not reach
conclusions by reasoning." (Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels,
p.47) This same collective state-of-mind is what the Hitlers of our