Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- While looking over your links, I was struck by your use of Kevin MacDonald who in no way is a neutral source when it comes to the Jewish community. There are many historical reasons why Jews find themselves in the liberal camp without examining carefully as individuals their involvements, and I find myself in disagreement with that philosophy for many reasons. When I first heard attacks on Kevin MacDonald, I wondered what was going on, but after looking at his involvements and his writings, I have no doubt that he falls into the antisemitic camp. Any search on the net will provide much information on his work. He would fit very well into Veith's book, Modern Fascism, on fascism in the academic community. Particularly revealing was an article he wrote which parallels the views of Savitri Devi, a hardcore antisemite. A biography of her is titled Hitler's Priestess. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Salter Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism -Caveat Lector- i perceive a typically polarized argument going on here, so i'm going to interject some comments... just because i'm so damn sick and tired of both sides of the left-right culture war!!! On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Zuukie wrote: -Caveat Lector- I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one of them: Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist tyranny. IMO, the idea that National Socialism was genuine socialism (as the left sees it, anyway), and the idea that National Socialism was the capitalist world's defence against socialism are BOTH bullshit hoaxes, perpetrated by the ideologues of left and right on eachother. these arguments are a disease of those who need to think in dualistic terms. however, i have recently been tilting somewhat to the opinion that the absolute categorization of the nazis as right wing is a distortion of history by the left (especially trotskyists, who have abused the very word fascism into oblivion by using it as a facile verbal weapon against any ideology they don't like, whether or not it accurately fits). this is certainly the case if one equates fascism with late capitalism, which has always been a cheapshot marxist canard. the nazi party platform was very heavily collectivist and strongly espoused a planned as opposed to a market economy, and there was a notable anti-capitalist element in both the nazi platform and many right-wing nationalist movements of the time (a competitive, free-market system, whatever it's real flaws may be, was seen as the enemy because it gave an undesired equality to outsiders and thus weakened the volk). a more perceptive and fair way to look at the nazi regime was as a rendition of what james burnham called the managerial society, which was neither capitalism nor socialism, and in fact is antithetical to both in important ways. it is this managerial state which is the real agenda of the wall st. so-called capitalists who supported hitler (and some of whom, such as the rockefellers, had earlier supported the rise of the bolsheviks, who created what burnham also considered to be a managerial society). http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/burnham.html anyway, here's a quote from a dissenting point of view: The evidence that Nazism was part of the socialist tradition continues to accumulate, even if it makes no headlines. In 1978 Otto Wagener's Hitler: Memoirs of a Confidant appeared in its original German. Wagener was a lifelong Nazi who had died in 1971. His recollections of Hitler's conversations had been composed from notes in a British prisoner-of-war camp, and they represent Hitler as an extreme socialist utopian, anti-Jewish because ``the Jew is not a socialist.'' Nor are Communists--``basically they are not socialistic, since they create mere herds, as in the Soviet Union, without individual life.'' The real task, Hitler told Wagener, was to realize the socialist dream that mankind over the centuries had forgotten, to liberate labor, and to displace the role of capital. That sounds like a program for the Left, and many parties called socialist have believed in less. Hitler's allegiance, even before such sources were known, was acknowledged by socialists outside Germany. Julian Huxley, for example, the pro-Soviet British biologist who later became director-general of UNESCO, accepted Hitler's claim to be a socialist in the early 1930s, though without enthusiasm (indeed, with marked embarrassment). Hitler's program demanded central economic planning, which was at the heart of the
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- i'll check out these references. i'm not strongly endorsing macdonald; however having read some criticsm and counter-criticism, i'm not convinced he's anti-semitic. in fact, his academic work is devoted to ethnic particularism in general, and he has studied other diasporic cultures as well, which somewhat rules out him having a personal agenda or vendetta. however i do think he overgeneralizes, and one thing that i think is sorely missing is an awareness of how the attitudes of jews have been manipulated by elites to play a certain role. this is the crucial element. i believe that both christians and jews have been massively manipulated to serve agendas that are not in their interests. also i think that many elitists who are assumed to be jews or christians are in fact nothing of the sort. at the same time, it is not fair to prohibit open analysis and consideration of jewish cultural identity and its effect on politics and society, given the extraordinarily disproportionate representation that jews have in certain areas. i think that this goes beyond the simple question of zionism or anti-zionism. one cannot ascribe *everything* to individual experience or purely external factors; people are often influenced by their cultural identity and this needs to be acknowledged, in an objective way, without hate. so, even if macdonald falls into the anti-semitic camp, that doesn't mean that some of the issues and research he brings up are out of the question. that said, i think peter meyers offers a more balanced discussion. also this recent article by sherman skolnick (who is jewish) points the way to a more nuanced view: http://www.rense.com/general38/bordello6.htm i'd also like you to back up your accusation against mark that he is a jew hater. can you point out some proof of that? i am somewhat familiar with mark's writing and opinions, and i have never seen any evidence of that whatsoever. -brian On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 01:29 PM, Zuukie wrote: -Caveat Lector- While looking over your links, I was struck by your use of Kevin MacDonald who in no way is a neutral source when it comes to the Jewish community. There are many historical reasons why Jews find themselves in the liberal camp without examining carefully as individuals their involvements, and I find myself in disagreement with that philosophy for many reasons. When I first heard attacks on Kevin MacDonald, I wondered what was going on, but after looking at his involvements and his writings, I have no doubt that he falls into the antisemitic camp. Any search on the net will provide much information on his work. He would fit very well into Veith's book, Modern Fascism, on fascism in the academic community. Particularly revealing was an article he wrote which parallels the views of Savitri Devi, a hardcore antisemite. A biography of her is titled Hitler's Priestess. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- On Wednesday, June 18, 2003, at 11:12 AM, Zuukie wrote: A great deal of the wealth created by the American capitalist economy has been accomplished by taking control of third world nations (see the references below), robbing their natural resources, installing murderous dictatorial (death-squad) governments, and then using their populations as slave labor at wages of pennies per hour to grow and manufacture products for American corporations. This practice is still going on. there are many libertarians, conservatives, and other advocates of free-enterprise capitalism who absolutely deplore these types of atrocities by the US government, and who deplore the form the government has taken over the past century. regardless of the pluses or minuses of their viewpoints, it is totally unfair to their views and a cheapshot to lump all non-socialist views together with the atrocities of the current ruling elites and simply label it all capitalism. that's a gutter level cheap shot, and the left just keeps on doing it. in fact, although i have some fundamental differences with the libertarians, i feel that their arguments that the atrocities of the US govt have been enabled by the institutionalization of the welfare-warfare state more than anything else are sometimes more prinicpled and more analytically grounded than the left has to offer. M:Wrong. Scandinavian and other countries that practice Social Democracy...have much better distribution of wealth than the U.S. economy. Z: Are you suggesting we should stop all foreign aid, all military aid to other countries, support of the UN, all humanitarian aide to other countries, etc. and keep the profits here for the betterment our people? Coveting again? i think that redistribution of wealth land should be on the table... at the same time, it should be recognized that attempts to apply aspects of social democracy in the US have had the opposite effect of what was promised. for example, the progressive income tax, which was supposed to redistribute wealth, has actually served to demolish the middle and upper-middle classes, thus preventing any challenges to the top elites. these top elites are also inveterate opponents of genuine free enterprise; they LOVE planned economies. (but these days, instead of being planned by governments, they are planned by multilater corporations.)this was spelled out in a carnegie foundation study from the 30s, which is not well known today... also i'd like to point out that there used to be some populist forms of socialism in the US, believe it or not, but these were extinguished by the postwar trotskyist / countercultural left. i think some open-minded reexamination is due: http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/ArchiveARCHIVE/MARK%20EVANS/ PopulistSocialism.html M:Sooner or later tyrants and their advocates will divulge their true motives! Here Zuukie and (as I'm told) her friends are advocating the maintenance of economic-class, racial, and gender social barriers, which can mean nothing less than control of the government, society, and economy by wealthy white businessmen. This is exactly the agenda of the Fascists and the businessmen who supported them, for the simple purpose of maximizing their profits. Z: Wow. All that? Leaping logic leaping logic indeed. mark is using polemical, either-or arguments, demonizing rather than debating. but zuukie, you're very polemical as well. The gay rights movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans. Absolutely false. Homosexual people are generally not allowed to have official marriages, and so are denied the various economic and social rights that such marriages confer, and they are also discriminated against in employment, housing, etc. homosexual marriages ought to be allowed; let's be humane. but homosexual parenting should not. but the idea that the ruling class in the US are homophobic per se is nonsense; the rockefeller-funded kinsey studies deliberately exaggerated the prevalence of homosexuality in america, along with other aspects of non-traditional sexuality. it is very clear that the changing of america's sexual mores was sanctioned from the top, from certain circles anyway. not in the sense of supporting liberation, but to create demographic changes, to weaken the family structure and thus make the citizenry more susceptible to having their values changed by propaganda, and also to lower the birth rate in accordance with elite concerns about population (the rockefellers were at the same time setting up groups like the Population Council to carry on the eugenics cause... the rockefellers have been heavily involved in funding certain types of feminist programs, and supporting feminist programs through the UN, because this offers a convenient PR shield to hide the eugenics agenda behind some family planning efforts.) just because the reaction to social change is often imbued with
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- One of the first things the Nazis did was to murder every socialist they could find. When leftists talk about socialism today they mean DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, with workers (including managers) having democratic control (one-person-one-vote, not one-dollar-one-vote as in the U.S. today) over the businesses they work in and over the economy and government as a whole. It is not possible to achieve socialism without establishing an authoritarian state since the pervasive state involvement in all areas of a citizen's life ncessary to implement socialism requires a degree of control only attainable through an authoritarian state. The one essential difference between Communism and Nazism was that the Nazis learned from the mistakes Lenin made in the 1920's. Rather then replace the nation's former, pre Revolutionary elite with a new (untrained) party elite, the Nazis simply co-opted the old elite by making membership in the Nazi party mandatory in order to keep one's position of power. Thus the Nazis had the advantage of permitting the country to continue to function efficiently after seizing power yet make the Party paramount in all areas of life. Eventually the old elite would be replaced by a new highly educated and efficient Party elite. flw www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 08:25 AM, flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- One of the first things the Nazis did was to murder every socialist they could find. When leftists talk about socialism today they mean DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, with workers (including managers) having democratic control (one-person-one-vote, not one-dollar-one-vote as in the U.S. today) over the businesses they work in and over the economy and government as a whole. what is seldom discussed is that socialist ideas about direct worker control of factories, such as guild socialism or syndicalism, have a direct link to the sort of corporatism seen in mussolini's fascist regime. this connection is particularly notable in the writings of vilfredo pareto, a theorist who was influential in the development of fascism. the spanish civil war is often cited as an example of supposedly successful application of democratic socialism, but many better-informed leftists are very wary of this claim, given the potential for corporatism that could have come out of that situation (even more, since it only lasted about a year and a half, it really doesn't amount to a successful test run of anything). these surprising connections are obscured and buried by the left / right labeling game vis a vis fascism. also obscured by the childish assumption that just because different political groups are fighting killing eachother, their ideologies must be diametrically opposed. not so. on a deeper level, the obsession with collectivizing the workplace as the single, driving objective of socialism, is the core marxist ruse psy-op... this creates maximum class antagonism between the working class and middle class, and thus keeps the heat of the true overclass -- the financial elite (with various cartels monopolies at their side). it also obviates any possibility of reaching an equitable social modus vivendi between workers and employers, as opposed to utopian, absolutist egalitarianism. marx's theories also divert the blame solely on the dynamics of the productive sector of the economy for economic instability and wealth accumulation, and thereby insulate the manipulation of monetary systems and central banks from adequate attention. this is why wall st. bankers have such a cozy history with marxism! the link i posted yesterday about the populist socialism of the 30s shows that they at least had their general priorities straight -- their number one objective was to eliminate the fed and nationalize the central banking system. it's worth noting that even many libertarians support one particular centralized, socialistic policy that is really in our benefit -- a nationalized central bank. (not counting radicals like rothbard who advocate free-market monetary systems). a further note, marx's labor theory of value never worked as a systematic theory of capitalism. in fact, it was a shamble of contradictions and illogic, as was first demonstrated by boehm-bawerk in his famous critique. in fact, in Kapital, vol. 3, marx actually subtly admits that he couldn't really make this theory work in a way that reflected real market behavior, not without some absurd fudge factors. that doesn't mean that there isn't a metaphorical truth to the value theory of labor, however. but marx's system otherwise simply falls apart. this must be considered as well. i only discovered these details recently, and it blew my mind. just think of all that the world has been subjected to on behalf of this theory which didn't work from the start. this is the dark human comedy, i guess... www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 12:21 PM, Brian Salter wrote: regime. this connection is particularly notable in the writings of vilfredo pareto, a theorist who was influential in the development of fascism. oops, i didn't mean to say Pareto... i was thinking of Georges Sorel. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- i perceive a typically polarized argument going on here, so i'm going to interject some comments... just because i'm so damn sick and tired of both sides of the left-right culture war!!! On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Zuukie wrote: -Caveat Lector- I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one of them: Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist tyranny. IMO, the idea that National Socialism was genuine socialism (as the left sees it, anyway), and the idea that National Socialism was the capitalist world's defence against socialism are BOTH bullshit hoaxes, perpetrated by the ideologues of left and right on eachother. these arguments are a disease of those who need to think in dualistic terms. however, i have recently been tilting somewhat to the opinion that the absolute categorization of the nazis as right wing is a distortion of history by the left (especially trotskyists, who have abused the very word fascism into oblivion by using it as a facile verbal weapon against any ideology they don't like, whether or not it accurately fits). this is certainly the case if one equates fascism with late capitalism, which has always been a cheapshot marxist canard. the nazi party platform was very heavily collectivist and strongly espoused a planned as opposed to a market economy, and there was a notable anti-capitalist element in both the nazi platform and many right-wing nationalist movements of the time (a competitive, free-market system, whatever it's real flaws may be, was seen as the enemy because it gave an undesired equality to outsiders and thus weakened the volk). a more perceptive and fair way to look at the nazi regime was as a rendition of what james burnham called the managerial society, which was neither capitalism nor socialism, and in fact is antithetical to both in important ways. it is this managerial state which is the real agenda of the wall st. so-called capitalists who supported hitler (and some of whom, such as the rockefellers, had earlier supported the rise of the bolsheviks, who created what burnham also considered to be a managerial society). http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/burnham.html anyway, here's a quote from a dissenting point of view: The evidence that Nazism was part of the socialist tradition continues to accumulate, even if it makes no headlines. In 1978 Otto Wagener's Hitler: Memoirs of a Confidant appeared in its original German. Wagener was a lifelong Nazi who had died in 1971. His recollections of Hitler's conversations had been composed from notes in a British prisoner-of-war camp, and they represent Hitler as an extreme socialist utopian, anti-Jewish because ``the Jew is not a socialist.'' Nor are Communists--``basically they are not socialistic, since they create mere herds, as in the Soviet Union, without individual life.'' The real task, Hitler told Wagener, was to realize the socialist dream that mankind over the centuries had forgotten, to liberate labor, and to displace the role of capital. That sounds like a program for the Left, and many parties called socialist have believed in less. Hitler's allegiance, even before such sources were known, was acknowledged by socialists outside Germany. Julian Huxley, for example, the pro-Soviet British biologist who later became director-general of UNESCO, accepted Hitler's claim to be a socialist in the early 1930s, though without enthusiasm (indeed, with marked embarrassment). Hitler's program demanded central economic planning, which was at the heart of the socialist cause; and genocide, in the 1930s, was well known to be an aspect of the socialist tradition and of no other. There was, and is, no conservative or liberal tradition of racial extermination. The Nazis, what is more, could call on socialist practice as well as socialist theory when they invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 and began their exterminatory program. That is documented by Rudolf Hoess in his memoir Kommandant in Auschwitz (1958). Detailed reports of the Soviet camp system were circulated to Nazi camp commandants as a model to emulate and an example to follow. from, Never Blame the Left by George Watson, quoted at http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/genocide.html (note: i don't endorse everything on this page...) He also assumes that the elimination of all social barriers is a good thing. History shows us this isn't so. The social anarchy that followed the French and Russian revolutions were not the beginnings of a socialist utopia, they were rightly called Reigns of Terror. i think this is oversimplistic, but i would agree that left utopianism is more directly responsible for unexpected nightmarish consequences than the left admits. this is particularly an issue when it
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 12:07:30AM -0500 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 12:07:30AM -0500, Zuukie wrote: I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one of them: Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist tyranny. One of the first things the Nazis did was to murder every socialist they could find. When leftists talk about socialism today they mean DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, with workers (including managers) having democratic control (one-person-one-vote, not one-dollar-one-vote as in the U.S. today) over the businesses they work in and over the economy and government as a whole. Regardless of their party's name or the original beliefs of some of their members, the actual facts of Nazism and Italian and Japanese Fascism is that they were financed by (some) wealthy businessmen and they served the interests of wealthy businessmen. All these forms of Fascism specifically murdered everyone who advocated democratic control of businesses and the economy by the people. They even murdered union leaders who simply wanted to organize workers so they could gain some leverage toward better wages and conditions. The German Fascists (Nazis) got most of their financing from (some) wealthy American businessmen. After WWII, (some) wealthy American businessmen, acting through conservative politicians, carried out assassinations and covert and overt military attacks on dozens of different nations, to murder exactly the same sorts of pro-human political leaders that the Nazis murdered. See the references below. This person is of the mistaken assumption that profits are evil. No, it is _excessive_ profits -- those that rob from workers most of the value of the goods and services they produce -- that are evil. what he ignores is that the much maligned American capitalist economy has created more wealth A great deal of the wealth created by the American capitalist economy has been accomplished by taking control of third world nations (see the references below), robbing their natural resources, installing murderous dictatorial (death-squad) governments, and then using their populations as slave labor at wages of pennies per hour to grow and manufacture products for American corporations. This practice is still going on. and distributed it more evenly than any other economic system in the history of mankind. No socialist economy anywhere, ever has created the broad distribution of wealth the US economy has... period. Wrong. Scandinavian and other countries that practice Social Democracy -- democratic control over a capitalist economy, with limitations on profits and a large public sector to provide housing, medical care, etc., that capitalism doesn't -- have much better distribution of wealth than the U.S. economy. And people in Cuba, and under the former socialist government of Nicaragua, have done much better than under U.S.-imposed capitalism, even with U.S.-enforced trade embargos and military attacks that did tremendous damage to their economies. He also assumes that the elimination of all social barriers is a good thing. History shows us this isn't so. The social anarchy that followed the French and Russian revolutions were not the beginnings of a socialist utopia, they were rightly called Reigns of Terror. Sooner or later tyrants and their advocates will divulge their true motives! Here Zuukie and (as I'm told) her friends are advocating the maintenance of economic-class, racial, and gender social barriers, which can mean nothing less than control of the government, society, and economy by wealthy white businessmen. This is exactly the agenda of the Fascists and the businessmen who supported them, for the simple purpose of maximizing their profits. The gay rights movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans. Absolutely false. Homosexual people are generally not allowed to have official marriages, and so are denied the various economic and social rights that such marriages confer, and they are also discriminated against in employment, housing, etc. Its about government mandated endorsement of sodomy and nothing else. That is an absurd lie. Sodomy -- oral and anal sex -- is widely practiced by heterosexual, as well as homosexual, people. The laws that homosexual people want, permitting marriage and forbidding discrimination, do not endorse sodomy any more than current laws endorse penile-vaginal intercourse. Here is the ideal general principle of morality: Don't harm other people; do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. In fact, that is the fundamental
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- I truly am glad that you chose to reply, for whatever reason. You have elaborated very clearly and with wonderful documentation what I was trying to say in a less academic way, and for that I thank you. Having gone thru what might be called onion research, attempting to lift one layer after another of opinion and facts to understand what is going on, just out of persistent curiousity, I am no more a fan of the organized right than I am of the organized left, particularly seeing the right as the provision made for dissidents which Beatrice Webb said was necessary. You are right when you say the media promoted establishment left and right organizations promote ideas that are devisive. Followers on the right are sidetracked when they attempt to learn what is causing the changes, and followers on the left tend to respond to emotional messages promoting the cultural changes taking place. On the right those who look for information are easily funneled to antisemitic sources who promise to give them the real truth that they can't get anywhere else. They don't even realize how they have been funneled, thinking that those who present them with any new information are to be trusted. That seems to be happening on the left now also. Those on the left over these past years were provided with so much emotionally laden factual support that they felt they need look no further as they supported the cause of their choice. Neither media promoted side respects its followers. One of the leaders on the political side of the New Age movement stated they have something for everyone. It takes much persistence to discover how those somethings link to New Age. As David Spangler, a New Age spokeman wrote, the movement was first tried with a disciple on the Rhine, but this time things wouldn't go the same way they thought. Enough said on that. The issues to be explored go far beyond surface discussion of homosexuality, abortion, the feminist movement, Israel, the EU, etc. and other publicized topics. I look forward to checking out the links you have suggested. By the way, I was using the word fascism as it is used by Prof. Gene Veith in his book Modern Fascism. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Salter Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism -Caveat Lector- i perceive a typically polarized argument going on here, so i'm going to interject some comments... just because i'm so damn sick and tired of both sides of the left-right culture war!!! On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Zuukie wrote: -Caveat Lector- I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one of them: Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist tyranny. IMO, the idea that National Socialism was genuine socialism (as the left sees it, anyway), and the idea that National Socialism was the capitalist world's defence against socialism are BOTH bullshit hoaxes, perpetrated by the ideologues of left and right on eachother. these arguments are a disease of those who need to think in dualistic terms. however, i have recently been tilting somewhat to the opinion that the absolute categorization of the nazis as right wing is a distortion of history by the left (especially trotskyists, who have abused the very word fascism into oblivion by using it as a facile verbal weapon against any ideology they don't like, whether or not it accurately fits). this is certainly the case if one equates fascism with late capitalism, which has always been a cheapshot marxist canard. the nazi party platform was very heavily collectivist and strongly espoused a planned as opposed to a market economy, and there was a notable anti-capitalist element in both the nazi platform and many right-wing nationalist movements of the time (a competitive, free-market system, whatever it's real flaws may be, was seen as the enemy because it gave an undesired equality to outsiders and thus weakened the volk). a more perceptive and fair way to look at the nazi regime was as a rendition of what james burnham called the managerial society, which was neither capitalism nor socialism, and in fact is antithetical to both in important ways. it is this managerial state which is the real agenda of the wall st. so-called capitalists who supported hitler (and some of whom, such as the rockefellers, had earlier supported the rise of the bolsheviks, who created what burnham also considered to be a managerial society). http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/burnham.html anyway, here's a quote from a dissenting point of view: The
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- Mark, I think your comments have been answered in a better way by others than I could do. However, I would like to add a few comments of my own. - Mark:Regardless of their party's name or the original beliefs of some of their members, Z: The I think the true believers among the communists are saying the same thing...Real communism wasn't tried by those calling themselves communists, etc. Mark: the actual facts of Nazism and Italian and Japanese Fascism is that they were financed by (some) wealthy businessmen and they served the interests of wealthy businessmen. Z: The Thule Society made sure that the Nazi movement financially got off the ground. (See the Pool book you list at the end of your post.) Capitalists supporting the Nazis? No doubt about that. It still goes on. The Bill Gates Foundation is listed on ngws.org (New Group of World Servers, part of Lucis Trust, a very occultic, New Age political organization. The German Fascists (Nazis) got most of their financing from (some) wealthy American businessmen. After WWII, (some) wealthy American businessmen, acting through conservative politicians, carried out assassinations and covert and overt military attacks on dozens of different nations, to murder exactly the same sorts of pro-human political leaders that the Nazis murdered. See the references below. This person is of the mistaken assumption that profits are evil. No, it is _excessive_ profits -- those that rob from workers most of the value of the goods and services they produce -- that are evil. what he ignores is that the much maligned American capitalist economy has created more wealth A great deal of the wealth created by the American capitalist economy has been accomplished by taking control of third world nations (see the references below), robbing their natural resources, installing murderous dictatorial (death-squad) governments, and then using their populations as slave labor at wages of pennies per hour to grow and manufacture products for American corporations. This practice is still going on. As in New Age is a resurgence of Nazism. M:Wrong. Scandinavian and other countries that practice Social Democracy...have much better distribution of wealth than the U.S. economy. Z: Are you suggesting we should stop all foreign aid, all military aid to other countries, support of the UN, all humanitarian aide to other countries, etc. and keep the profits here for the betterment our people? Coveting again? M:Sooner or later tyrants and their advocates will divulge their true motives! Here Zuukie and (as I'm told) her friends are advocating the maintenance of economic-class, racial, and gender social barriers, which can mean nothing less than control of the government, society, and economy by wealthy white businessmen. This is exactly the agenda of the Fascists and the businessmen who supported them, for the simple purpose of maximizing their profits. Z: Wow. All that? Leaping logic The gay rights movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans. Absolutely false. Homosexual people are generally not allowed to have official marriages, and so are denied the various economic and social rights that such marriages confer, and they are also discriminated against in employment, housing, etc. M:Here is the ideal general principle of morality: Don't harm other people; do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Z: Wasn't it Crowley the Satanist who said Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole of the Law! Z: Regarding promoting homosexuality to children, I presume you are in support of the Diversity Days that are a cover for bringing knowledge of homosexual practices to school children? M:Women have been discriminated against in employment and wages, and in protection by the law ... Z: For a while in your post you have been confusing what I've written and what another wrote. By the way, do you know the difference between civil law and cultural custom? Could it be that the feminist movement drove women into the workplace where they earn less than the men would who would be holding the same jobs, making more money for the dreaded capitalists? When women weren't in the workplace, they were also busy keeping an eye on government activities such as libraries, schools, local government. Now that they are in the workplace, who has time to monitor these groups? Much volunteer work was done by women, an unpaid service to the community which kept government money-sucking groups under check. Friend:Likewise, these religions are socialist, emphasizing the group over the individual. Man exists to serve the state (or the coven, or whatever group you like). M:Wicca doesn't make people serve anyone or any thing. Zuukie and her bigoted right-wing friends are just making this shit up. Z: If you bother to check it out, you will see the very powerful occult Lucis Trust in its writings says
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 11:43:49PM -0500 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 11:43:49PM -0500, Zuukie wrote: ... I checked out your website and based on that and your comments you really are into coveting. What I'm into is workers receiving as wages most of the value of the goods and services they produce. Instead of almost all of it going to wealthy owners, executives, stockholders, bankers, etc., resulting in 95% of U.S. wealth being in the hands of the richest 5% of the population. Morally, that wealth belongs mostly to the workers; wanting to get it back is not coveting. I would suggest you find out where in your area you can review back issues of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. You might then see who really has the wealth and which organizations are being supported. It sure isn't the right that's getting the bulk of the money. All of the causes you support are not being supported by the little guy sending in his $10 bill. Zuukie appears to be saying that some wealthy people support pro-human organizations. True, but so many other wealthy people support the Fascists (Republicans and some of the Democrats) that those organizations can't do much. All of the doing good activities you describe have intruded the government into every area of our lives. Apparently Zuukie's life mostly consists of dumping toxic waste, abusing women, blacks, and gays, selling injurious products, etc. After all the controllers have to make sure that the people got what they really wanted, made sure the efforts were properly funded, were followed thru in every possible way, nationally and internationally without interference from anyone with a different point of view. You really want me to believe the establishment politicians saw the light that was brought to them by the people. Remember SDS -- Supply the Demand for the Supply? It works for the one-worlders also. Have you ever seen it in operation in the small discussion groups where a concensus is to be formed? Talk about immoral manipulative behavior! I don't think any actual meaning can be assigned to that completely vague paragraph. Just where do you draw the line at capitalism? According to the following study, of the top forty richest Americans almost all of the big capitalists were around in the 1800s. The study by Michael Klepper and Robert Gunther grew out of research the two did for a 1996 book The Wealthy 100: From Benjamin Franklin to Bill Gates A Ranking of the Richest Americans, Past and Present. The authors updated their data for the magazine article. People with money are no more or less moral than those with no money. The man or woman who owns five MacDonalds is just as likely to be immoral as the poverty level Mom. Perhaps that's so, but since under capitalism money equals power, immoral wealthy American businessmen, using conservative politicians to control the government, have murdered many millions of people in other countries in order to prevent them from controlling their own economy, leaving it open to these predatory businessmen to use the population as virtual slave labor. Such businessmen financed Hitler in order to kill off socialism in Europe, and after WWII financed various death-squad operations, and carried out direct military interventions, to stop democracy, trade-unionism, and socialism; see the references below. Generalizations may make you feel superior to the capitalists, but stereotypes are dangerous to clear thinking. So? The problem is that 95% of the wealth in the U.S. is held by the richest 5% of the population. That wealth is the value of the goods and services produced by workers, so it is finite. The fact that most of it is taken by the rich means that little is left for working people. But thanks anyway for pointing out that there is a New Age culture and what it looks like to the true believer. Zuukie offers no rational criticism of New Age culture, but implies that people who agree with it are irrational true believers. He also makes no attempt to defend his vile smear in his previous post that flower children caused Fascism. References: o Most of the funding for Hitler's military buildup came from some very wealthy conservative Americans and their businesses. Many of the racial-superiority ideas came from American organizations also. http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html http://www.ka.net/randy/conspiracies/conspiracies.html http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/ http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm _Trading With The Enemy_, Charles Higham, 1983 _All Honorable Men_, James Stuart Martin, 1950 _Who Financed Hitler?_, James Suzanne Pool, 1978 _The Secret War Against The Jews_, John Loftus Mark Aarons, 1994 o Since WWII, the U.S., on behalf of some very wealthy Americans, has attacked over 50 nations by military action or subversion,
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- I sent Mark's post to a number of people. Here is a response from one of them: Fascism is based on the ideal of National SOCIALISM. The only real difference between a Nazi and a Communist is that a Nazi believes that socialism can be achieved in a single nation while a communist believes that a global socialist state is need to fully implement socialist tyranny. This person is of the mistaken assumption that profits are evil. Of course, what he ignores is that the much maligned American capitalist economy has created more wealth and distributed it more evenly than any other economic system in the history of mankind. No socialist economy anywhere, ever has created the broad distribution of wealth the US economy has... period. He also assumes that the elimination of all social barriers is a good thing. History shows us this isn't so. The social anarchy that followed the French and Russian revolutions were not the beginnings of a socialist utopia, they were rightly called Reigns of Terror. The gay rights movement isn't about civil rights for homosexuals. Homosexuals enjoy all the same civil rights as other Americans. Its about government mandated endorsement of sodomy and nothing else. The 'gay rights' movement wants to create a 'right of access' for homosexuals to other people's children. The have demanded that the Congress reverse Loving v. Virginia, where the court ruled that marriage was a common law institution that was not subject to redefinition by the state and in the process they did away with miscegenation laws. Now they want to say marriage is whatever the state says it is. It's not as if these demands have improved the lot of homosexuals. In the Netherlands, where they've gotten everything they've wanted, their median age of death is still roughly 40 years younger than similarly situated heterosexuals and they suffer MORE greatly from depression and other mental illness than in the states. Feminism isn't about civil rights for women. Women have had all the civil rights of men since the passage of the 19th amendment in 1920. It's about redefining society to say men and women are identical (as opposed to equal), that men and male perogatives like fatherhood and the traditional family are 'outmoded'. Of course, with the adoption of feminist demands like easy divorce, government preferrence of single mothers, abortion on demand and so on, we've seen our juvenille deliquency rates sky-rocket, we've seen the absolute destruction of the family unit in the black and latino communities (and it's not in such great shape among whites either, but Asians and Jews seem to be fairly a little better). Wicca, and these other New Age religions, seek to reduce man to the level of the animals instead of recognizing that each of us is a unique creation. Likewise, these religions are socialist, emphasizing the group over the individual. Man exists to serve the state (or the coven, or whatever group you like). Whereas under Jewish morality, government exists to serve the people. Instead of the worker being a cog in the state managed greater good (as under socialism and New Age religion), Judaism holds that each man, even the lowliest laborer, is entitled to seek his own betterment, the economy serves the person NOT the otherway around. Insofar as it is human nature to seek one's own interests, and insofar as Judaism teaches one how to do so in a way that builds a better world for everyone it is FAR more human than any religion that man conceived. This is the most inane, assinine load of leftist garbage I have read in a while. The author is utterly clueless about how societies and economies actually work. What he and his confederates seek is not liberty but license, not freedom but the ability to tyranize those who don't agree with him. It is socialism as we have seen it in a thousand gulags and concentration camps around the world. We will see it again, sadly, and millions will pay with their lives for his greed and the greed of his confederates. But let's call this by it's right name. It's not progressive... it's evil! www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 04:53:54PM -0500 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 04:53:54PM -0500, Zuukie wrote: ... This is one of the most vicious, anti-human, right-wing propaganda pieces I've ever seen. Comments below... America started to slide into Fascism long before Bush came into office. It happened so gradually that no one noticed that it was happening. As government power grew and individuals became less involved in government at all levels, leaving it to the professionals, fascism came to power. U.S. Fascism was engineered by Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton (of the right wing of the Democratic party) GW Bush and the people behind them. Fascism is violent, deceptive, domineering government by and for wealthy capitalists. At one time civics was taught in the schools, and students learned how federal, state and local government worked. Then Civics was taken out. The flower children who had no idea how government worked joined groups emotionally and protested without ever taking the time to search out what was happening. Oh so righteous they were. As they grew older they became even more righteous and came into positions of power where no one was to challenge their thinking. They brought in every New Age cockamamie idea with the straightest of faces, giving government more and more power. The only increases in government power pushed by flower children were (and are) regulations on businesses to limit environmental damage, set minimum wages, protect workers and consumers, prevent discrimination against non-whites, women, homosexual people. They also want to decrease government power by legalizing victimless sex and drug activities. Clever they were. They presented their ideas as if they were the outsiders, fighting the establishment. Everybody likes an underdog and few take the time to look into the backgrounds of the thousands of front groups operating. (See the Encyclopedia of Associations for a general idea of how many groups are operating here and internationally.) God help you if you wanted to challenge an environmental group, a peace group, a pro-abortion group, a school board, a library board or any other branch of government and its establishment. Conservatives, neocons, etc., challenged these groups all the time, because the changes they recommended decreased the profits of the wealthy businessmen the conservatives and neocons work for. Gradually, as in Nazi Germany, the churches and synagogues were turned toward supporting the secular goals of the flower children and their government, leaving behind any effort to teach monotheistic morality, and moving forward to the acceptance of occult spirituality. Morality -- rules to prevent people from harming each other -- do NOT uniquely come from monotheism. The morality of, e.g., various Wiccan religions is much more directed at preventing harm to people and to the planet than Judeo-Christian morality. The claim that anything outside of Judeo-Christian religion is evil occult spirituality is a standard Christian Fundamentalist Big Lie, one which they've been using for many centuries as a pretext for discriminating against, imprisoning, torturing, and murdering anyone who practices a religion different from theirs. In fact, Christian monotheists have murdered tens of millions of people for believing in a different religion (the witch burnings) and for trying to practice the same kind of non-competitive pro-human economic sharing (e.g., democratic socialism in Vietnam and Nicaragua) that Jesus would have approved of. So, the average person gave up learning what was happening, realizing the establishment enemy was too big. They were whipped into shape gradually. Forty years have gone by. Now when someone wants to challenge the state, it's almost impossible without the support of some sort of well-funded front group, paid for by who knows. This is total crap. Most people are sheep and don't challenge the establishment because of what they are force-fed by the mainstream news media, which are all owned by the ultra-wealthy, and have been pushing right-wing lies, for the benefit of the wealthy, for decades. The original post about the effects of most schooling (public and private) details additional mind- destroying effects. Fascism was brought into the country by the hands of the smug, uneducated flower children. No, Fascism was brought into the country by the conservative and neocon political servants of wealthy businessmen and bigoted religious fundamentalists, who are the vicious and unceasing _enemies_ of the flower children. The previous generation of these right-wing businessmen -- including two of GW Bush's grandfathers -- provided 70% of the funding for Hitler's military buildup. Zuukie, or whomever he is quoting, is using a standard right-wing propaganda technique -- attributing to their opposition what they
Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism
-Caveat Lector- Funny, I don't remember calling out the name Rumpelstilskin, but I guess I did that. By the way I wasn't quoting anyone. I checked out your website and based on that and your comments you really are into coveting. I would suggest you find out where in your area you can review back issues of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. You might then see who really has the wealth and which organizations are being supported. It sure isn't the right that's getting the bulk of the money. All of the causes you support are not being supported by the little guy sending in his $10 bill. All of the doing good activities you describe have intruded the government into every area of our lives. After all the controllers have to make sure that the people got what they really wanted, made sure the efforts were properly funded, were followed thru in every possible way, nationally and internationally without interference from anyone with a different point of view. You really want me to believe the establishment politicians saw the light that was brought to them by the people. Remember SDS -- Supply the Demand for the Supply? It works for the one-worlders also. Have you ever seen it in operation in the small discussion groups where a concensus is to be formed? Talk about immoral manipulative behavior! Just where do you draw the line at capitalism? According to the following study, of the top forty richest Americans almost all of the big capitalists were around in the 1800s. The study by Michael Klepper and Robert Gunther grew out of research the two did for a 1996 book The Wealthy 100: From Benjamin Franklin to Bill Gates A Ranking of the Richest Americans, Past and Present. The authors updated their data for the magazine article. People with money are no more or less moral than those with no money. The man or woman who owns five MacDonalds is just as likely to be immoral as the poverty level Mom. Generalizations may make you feel superior to the capitalists, but stereotypes are dangerous to clear thinking. But thanks anyway for pointing out that there is a New Age culture and what it looks like to the true believer. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark S Bilk Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 10:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Why most Americans are unable to perceive and protest America's slide into fascism -Caveat Lector- In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 04:53:54PM -0500 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 04:53:54PM -0500, Zuukie wrote: ... This is one of the most vicious, anti-human, right-wing propaganda pieces I've ever seen. Comments below... America started to slide into Fascism long before Bush came into office. It happened so gradually that no one noticed that it was happening. As government power grew and individuals became less involved in government at all levels, leaving it to the professionals, fascism came to power. U.S. Fascism was engineered by Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton (of the right wing of the Democratic party) GW Bush and the people behind them. Fascism is violent, deceptive, domineering government by and for wealthy capitalists. At one time civics was taught in the schools, and students learned how federal, state and local government worked. Then Civics was taken out. The flower children who had no idea how government worked joined groups emotionally and protested without ever taking the time to search out what was happening. Oh so righteous they were. As they grew older they became even more righteous and came into positions of power where no one was to challenge their thinking. They brought in every New Age cockamamie idea with the straightest of faces, giving government more and more power. The only increases in government power pushed by flower children were (and are) regulations on businesses to limit environmental damage, set minimum wages, protect workers and consumers, prevent discrimination against non-whites, women, homosexual people. They also want to decrease government power by legalizing victimless sex and drug activities. Clever they were. They presented their ideas as if they were the outsiders, fighting the establishment. Everybody likes an underdog and few take the time to look into the backgrounds of the thousands of front groups operating. (See the Encyclopedia of Associations for a general idea of how many groups are operating here and internationally.) God help you if you wanted to challenge an environmental group, a peace group, a pro-abortion group, a school board, a library board or any other branch of government and its establishment. Conservatives, neocons, etc., challenged these groups all the time, because the changes they recommended decreased the profits of the wealthy businessmen the conservatives and neocons work for. Gradually, as in Nazi Germany, the churches and
