Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:
   Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
   economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The
   very worst of both possibilities.

   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of
   Socialism by owning the government. And it's the poor
   and working class who enjoy the bitter leftovers of
   capitalism.

MJ:
   Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.

nurev wrote:
   You are absurd. Why don't you do a reality check to see if the
   above statement bears any resemblance to reality?

MJ:
It is reality at which I am pointing.


Nurev opined:
  This is the stupidest statement I've yet seen on the subject.
  I don't know what planet you live on, but on Earth, Capitalism
  can not exist without the state, and MUST control the state
  or die. Show me even ONE case where capitalism thrives
  independent of the state. EVEN ONE!!!

MJ:
There has NEVER been a truly capitalist society, though America
came close during its first 150 years.

nurev wrote:
   You mean Salvery???

MJ:
salivary (sàl´e-vèr´ê) adjective
   1. Of, relating to, or producing saliva.
   2. Of or relating to a salivary gland.

???

slavery (slâ´ve-rê, slâv´rê) noun
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of
   a slaveholder or household. See synonyms at servitude.
2. a. The practice of owning slaves. b. A mode of production
 in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified
   influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.

???

What exactly do EITHER of these have to do with capitalism?



Nurev opined:
   Capitalism is an inherently unstable and self destructive
   economic system that REQUIRES the state to pull Capitalists'
   chestnuts out of the fire time and time again. Capitalists
   REQUIRE the state to protect their interests from competition.
   BUT WHO PROTECTS THE REST OF US FROM CAPITALISM? Not the state
   because the state is run by the very people we need the
   protection from.
MJ:
 I am becoming dizzy from your Circulus in demonstrando, ad
 hoc and non sequitur.
nurev wrote:
 Well said. But incoherant.
MJ:
Contradicting yourself again?


MJ:
By your above remarks:
   Capitalism is unstable and requires the state to save
   it ... yet the state is run by these same people who
   are unstable -- but capable of saving themselves.
   Certainly profound.
nurev wrote:
   I said that capitalism is unstable, not necessarily its elite
   rulers.   This ploy was very unsubtle. You need to do better
   than that.
MJ:
Perhaps you should again READ what was penned under your name.


American Heritage states:

   cap·i·tal·ism (kàp¹î-tl-îz´em) noun
An economic system in which the means of production and
distribution are privately or corporately owned and
development is proportionate to the accumulation and
reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.


   Capitalism means the complete separation of economy and
   state, just like the separation of church and state.
   Capitalism is the social system based upon private
   ownership of the means of production which entails a
   completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all
   land is privately owned. But the separation of the state
   and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
   the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
   Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on
   the doctrine of individual rights.  This means that
   capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the
   owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life
   in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the
   rights of others.

   The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
   the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
   pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously
   benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing
   each individual to act unhampered by government regulations,
   capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient
   manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living,
   increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an
   ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market
   operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth
   for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
   which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
   richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
   economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

   Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system
   which 

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ wrote:
   The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony
   through the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism,
   the individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest
   simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of
   all others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered
   by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be
   created in the most efficient manner possible which
   ultimately raises the standard of living, increases the
   economic opportunities, and makes available an ever growing
   supply of products for everyone. The free-market operates
   in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for
   himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
   which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
   richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
   economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.



Linda Minor wrote:
   I agree with MJ here.  The system he is advocating does not
   exist.
MJ:
Exactly my point ... people lambaste capitalism by identifying
other systems as such.


Linda Minor wrote:
  It is a figment of Ayn Rand's imagination.
MJ:
Ad hominem, capitalism is independent of Ayn Rand.


Linda Minor wrote:
  Just look at the concepts he's discussing and see what a crock
  he's trying to push down the the throats of the people on this
  list:
MJ:
Ad populum, non sequitur, strawman ...

 results/benefits of capitalism


Linda Minor wrote:
  I believe capitalism is a commendable concept if it did not allow
  so many advantages to the sons and daughters of those who have
  already achieved or inherited wealth.  All I would like explained
  to me is why the children of wealthy people get to start so far
  above the rest of us?

MJ:
Your 'green-ness' is shortsighted as it assumes the 'moron' who
inherits wealth can retain/build or otherwise not LOSE that which
was given him.

In response to your question, because the property was earned by
the parent who may dispose of HIS property as HE sees fit -- whether
to charity OR family OR otherwise.


Linda Minor wrote:
  The problem with capitalism is that it allows wealth to be passed
  down to the unworthy, just as socialism does.  Show me a system
  which truly allows everyone to start on an even playing field,
  earn everything they get and get everything they earn, and I'll
  be satisfied.

MJ:
Capitalism is your answer ... just as YOU should be free to do
what you will with your earnings -- however large or meager they
may be -- so others have that same 'right'.

How exactly does socialism 'pass wealth down' -- implying inheritance?

Regard$,
--MJ

Do you not know that freedom means competition, and that
competition, according to M. Louis Blanc, is a system of
extermination for the common people, and a cause of ruin
for the businessman? For evidence that the freer nations
are, the closer they are to destruction and ruination,
should we not look at Switzerland, Holland, England, and
the United States? Do you not know that, again according
to M. Louis Blanc, competition leads to monopoly, and
that, for the same reason, low costs lead to high prices?
That competition tends to exhaust the sources of
consumption and pushes production into a destructive
activity? That competition forces production to increase
and consumption to decrease? Whence it follows that free
peopls produce in order not to consume -- that liberty
means both opppression and madness, and that M. Louis
Blanc simply must step in and set matters straight?
 -- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"M. A. Johnson" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-

> nurev wrote:
> Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
> economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The
> very worst of both possibilities.
>
> It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of
> Socialism by owning the government. And it's the poor
> and working class who enjoy the bitter leftovers of
> capitalism.
>
> MJ:
> Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...
>
> Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
> state -- hardly a reality within the US.

You are absurd. Why don't you do a reality check to see if the
above statement bears any resemblance to reality?

> Nurev opined:
>   This is the stupidest statement I've yet seen on the subject.
>   I don't know what planet you live on, but on Earth, Capitalism
>   can not exist without the state, and MUST control the state
>   or die. Show me even ONE case where capitalism thrives
>   independent of the state. EVEN ONE!!!
>
> MJ:
> There has NEVER been a truly capitalist society, though America
> came close during its first 150 years.

You mean Salvery???

> Nurev opined:
>Capitalism is an inherently unstable and self destructive
>economic system that REQUIRES the state to pull Capitalists'
>chestnuts out of the fire time and time again. Capitalists
>REQUIRE the state to protect their interests from competition.
>BUT WHO PROTECTS THE REST OF US FROM CAPITALISM? Not the state
>because the state is run by the very people we need the
>protection from.
>
> MJ:
> I am becoming dizzy from your Circulus in demonstrando, ad
> hoc and non sequitur.

Well said. But incoherant.
>
> By your above remarks:
> Capitalism is unstable and requires the state to save it ... yet the
> state is run by these same people who are unstable -- but
> capable of saving themselves.  Certainly profound.

I said that capitalism is unstable, not necessarily its elite rulers.
This ploy was very unsubtle. You need to do better than that.

> American Heritage states:
>
> cap·i·tal·ism (kàp¹î-tl-îz´em) noun
> An economic system in which the means of production and
> distribution are privately or corporately owned and
> development is proportionate to the accumulation and
> reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
>
> Capitalism means the complete separation of economy and
> state, just like the separation of church and state.
> Capitalism is the social system based upon private
> ownership of the means of production which entails a
> completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all
> land is privately owned. But the separation of the state
> and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
> the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
> Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on
> the doctrine of individual rights.  This means that
> capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the
> owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life
> in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the
> rights of others.
>
> The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
> the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
> pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously
> benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing
> each individual to act unhampered by government regulations,
> capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient
> manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living,
> increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an
> ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market
> operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth
> for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
> which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
> richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
> economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.
>
> Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system
> which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a
> small minority of wealthy capitalists.

OK. This part was really funny. I like good satire.

>
> As I have previously pointed, America is mucked in a mixed
> economy much to our detriment.
>
> Nurev continued:
> I don't know what fantasy you live in, but pull your head
> out of wherever you've placed it and LOOK AROUND YOU.
>
> I want to control the state democratically and I don't want
> businessmen to run this society surreptitiously any longer.
> MJ:
> I would prefer the Government was restrained to its only
> legitimate function of protecting all individuals from force
> and fraud -- your idea of Tyranny by the majority is no more
> appealing than the Statist displacement we are currently
> saddled.

Too bad. I'm willing to chance the tyrany of the majority, because
we can no longer tolerat

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

flw wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> >You can philosophize all you want. That's the real bottom line. That's
> >also why you have an interest in my well being. It's not altruism it's
> >survival. Your survival. Don't forget it.
> >
> >Joshua2
>
> Thats why we have a 2nd Amendment.
> FLW

Ha ha ha ha ha. Good one FLW. Do the name Custer ring a bell?

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Linda Minor]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ wrote:
>>The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously
benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing
each individual to act unhampered by government regulations,
capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient
manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living,
increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an
ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market
operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth
for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system
which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a
small minority of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is
actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation
of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly
on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the
socialist state to provide anything more than minimum physical
subsistence for the workers except to perhaps prevent riots
or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to the nature of
socialism because individuals cannot exist for their own sake,
rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the socialist
rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of 'society', may have
in mind.

As I have previously pointed, America is mucked in a mixed
economy much to our detriment.<<

+++
I agree with MJ here.  The system he is advocating does not exist.  It is a
figment of Ayn Rand's imagination.  Just look at the concepts he's
discussing and see what a crock he's trying to push down the the throats of
the people on this list:

"essential nature of capitalism is social harmony"

"allowing each individual to act unhampered by government regulations"

"capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient manner
possible "

"free-market "

"capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all"

"capitalism is not a system which exploits a large portion of society for
the sake of a small minority of wealthy capitalists"

I believe capitalism is a commendable concept if it did not allow so many
advantages to the sons and daughters of those who have already achieved or
inherited wealth.  All I would like explained to me is why the children of
wealthy people get to start so far above the rest of us?  The problem with
capitalism is that it allows wealth to be passed down to the unworthy, just
as socialism does.  Show me a system which truly allows everyone to start on
an even playing field, earn everything they get and get everything they
earn, and I'll be satisfied.

Linda

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>I want to control the state democratically and I don't want
>businessmen to run this society surreptitiously any longer. More people
feel like I
>do due to the antics of people you seem to admire. In the end, it will go
our
>way because there are more of us than there are of you. If you don't like
>that, you may leave. I suggest you go to Russia where your kind of economic
>philosophy is practiced. Take a sweater.
>
>Joshua2


Here it is again. The Huge Disconnect. Big Government ain't the problem, of
course not, its the bad (take your pick):

1. Evil Capitalists
2. Evil Commissars
3. Evil Grupenfurhrers

If only the "good people" run the Big Government, all will be fine.

Yeah right!

Please name these "good people" who we can trust to operate Big Government
in such an altruistic benign manner.

I have been around for a long time and yet to meet any of these "good
people" who are immune from the corruption of power. The Politico -  Paths
will dominate any governmental structure you put in place. The only possible
solution is to minimize the damage they can do by limiting the power (of
government) that they can wield.

I.E. "The Field Of Bad Dreams".If you build it they will come.
FLW

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>You can philosophize all you want. That's the real bottom line. That's
>also why you have an interest in my well being. It's not altruism it's
>survival. Your survival. Don't forget it.
>
>Joshua2


Thats why we have a 2nd Amendment.
FLW

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Someone wrote:
May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism
on the one hand, and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase)
or "loan shark" capitalism (which we have in the US now)



MJ:
  May I recommend an education in terminology before one
  attempts to malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?

  America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy
  with Government controls, regulations and planning to its
  detriment.

nurev wrote:
Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The
very worst of both possibilities.

It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of
Socialism by owning the government. And it's the poor
and working class who enjoy the bitter leftovers of
capitalism.

MJ:
Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.


Nurev opined:
  This is the stupidest statement I've yet seen on the subject.
  I don't know what planet you live on, but on Earth, Capitalism
  can not exist without the state, and MUST control the state
  or die. Show me even ONE case where capitalism thrives
  independent of the state. EVEN ONE!!!

MJ:
There has NEVER been a truly capitalist society, though America
came close during its first 150 years.


Nurev opined:
   Capitalism is an inherently unstable and self destructive
   economic system that REQUIRES the state to pull Capitalists'
   chestnuts out of the fire time and time again. Capitalists
   REQUIRE the state to protect their interests from competition.
   BUT WHO PROTECTS THE REST OF US FROM CAPITALISM? Not the state
   because the state is run by the very people we need the
   protection from.

MJ:
I am becoming dizzy from your Circulus in demonstrando, ad
hoc and non sequitur.

By your above remarks:
Capitalism is unstable and requires the state to save it ... yet the
state is run by these same people who are unstable -- but
capable of saving themselves.  Certainly profound.


American Heritage states:

cap·i·tal·ism (kàp¹î-tl-îz´em) noun
An economic system in which the means of production and
distribution are privately or corporately owned and
development is proportionate to the accumulation and
reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Capitalism means the complete separation of economy and
state, just like the separation of church and state.
Capitalism is the social system based upon private
ownership of the means of production which entails a
completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all
land is privately owned. But the separation of the state
and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on
the doctrine of individual rights.  This means that
capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the
owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life
in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the
rights of others.

The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously
benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing
each individual to act unhampered by government regulations,
capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient
manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living,
increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an
ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market
operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth
for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system
which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a
small minority of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is
actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation
of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly
on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the
socialist state to provide anything more than minimum physical
subsistence for the workers except to perhaps prevent riots
or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to the nature of
socialism because individuals cannot exist for their own sake,
rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the socialist
rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of 'society', may have
in mind.

As I have previously pointed, America is mucked in a mixed
economy much to our detriment.


Nurev continued:
I don't know what fantasy you live in, but pull your head
out of wherever you've placed it and LOOK AR

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Franklin Wayne Poley]

 -Caveat Lector-

Let me propose an alternative to acrimonious argument, an unhappy
hangover from the Cold War. The Cold War proved that in sheer economic
terms SELF-identified capitalist and socialist systems worked about
equally well. The GNP of the USSR doubled about every decade and that may
be slightly ahead of the "West". It wasn't economics which caused the
USSR to reinvent itself. It was a deliberately planned policy of
perestroika-glasnost-demokratisatsya. Now it goes under President
Yeltsyn's "Multi-Polar World" slogan.
   My proposal is that the US and USSR have a little contest in the High
Arctic of Canada. The region is in effect the border of Russia and
North America. Each will design a model sustainable city of at least
100,000 population for the High Arctic. Let us see if the best that each
system can now muster will solve the problems of unemployment, absolute
poverty, etc. Sometimes it takes a fresh start on a new field of snow
The capitalism vs. socialism debate is far from over and I want to see a
working example of the best that each can come up with. Which, by the way
is Mondragon? (See link from http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex). With
30,000 worker-owner-shareholders is it capitalist or socialist?
FWP.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"M. A. Johnson" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Nurev wrote:
>
>   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
>   by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
>   who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.
>
> MJ wrote:
>Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...
>
>Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
>state -- hardly a reality within the US.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>And while we do have a slightly mixed economy, ...
>
> MJ:
> 'Slightly mixed'???
>
> Name one business one may participate (legally) which is devoid
> of government.
>
> Regard$,
> --MJ
>
> Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
> is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
> wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
> produces it, whether individually or in association,
> provided that he respects the rights of others.
> -- Frederic Bastiat

And human survival is prior to all. Especially property rights.

Get your head out of your bank account. We are talking about the
national economy. Not just businesses.

J2

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"M. A. Johnson" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Someone wrote:
>  May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the
>  one hand, and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark"
>  capitalism (which we have in the US now)
>
> 
>
> MJ:
>  May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts
>  to malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?
>
>   America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy
>   with Government controls, regulations and planning to its
>   detriment.
>
> nurev wrote:
>Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
>economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very
>worst of both possibilities.
>
>It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
>by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
>who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.
>
> MJ:
> Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...
>
> Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
> state -- hardly a reality within the US.

This is the stupidest statement I've yet seen on the subject. I don't
know what planet you live on, but on Earth, Capitalism can not exist
without the state, and MUST control the state or die. Show me even ONE
case where capitalism thrives independent of the state. EVEN ONE!!!

Capitalism is an inherently unstable and self destructive economic
system
that REQUIRES the state to pull Capitalists' chestnuts out of the fire
time and time again. Capitalists REQUIRE the state to protect their
interests
from competition. BUT WHO PROTECTS THE REST OF US FROM CAPITALISM? Not
the state because the state is run by the very people we need the
protection
from.

I don't know what fantasy you live in, but pull your head out of
wherever
you've placed it and LOOK AROUND YOU.

I want to control the state democratically and I don't want
businessmen to
run this society surreptitiously any longer. More people feel like I
do due
to the antics of people you seem to admire. In the end, it will go our
way
because there are more of us than there are of you. If you don't like
that,
you may leave. I suggest you go to Russia where your kind of economic
philosophy is practiced.

Take a sweater.

Joshua2

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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nazi's need not apply.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"M. A. Johnson" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Someone wrote:
>   Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?
>
> Kenn Thomas wrote:
> This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA
> is staffed with people from industry. Like the other
> government agencies, it is a weak force compared to
> the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could
> live without it--it has no impact on European or Asian
> markets, for instance.
>
> MJ:
> Huh?  The FDA is unconstitutional -- another protectionist,
> vote-buying racket.
>
> Place the government in its legitimate role and businesses
> have no 'tool' for their use.  Reminds me of what another
> stated on a different list ... 'sounds like blaming the cow
> for leaving the barn when you left the door open'.
>
> Regard$,
> --MJ
>
> Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
> is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
> wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
> produces it, whether individually or in association,
> provided that he respects the rights of others.
> -- Frederic Bastiat


Grow up and get real man. You only own property because no one
takes it from you. How can you own property for example, when it was
here before you, and will be here after you. You're living in an
illusion. It's a game. I won't take your property if you won't take
mine. But if I have nothing to lose, I will take yours unless you can
stop me. If I have a vested interest in a system that I feel benefits
me as well as you, I will be glad to maintain such a system. If not,
then I have no interest in keeping you fat and sassy while my kids
starve.

You can philosophize all you want. That's the real bottom line. That's
also why you have an interest in my well being. It's not altruism it's
survival. Your survival. Don't forget it.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>> Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?
>
>This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA is staffed with
people
>from industry. Like the other government agencies, it is a weak force
compared to
>the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could live without it--it has
no
>impact on European or Asian markets, for instance.
>
>kt


Exactly my point. Predatory Corporations utilize and manipulate federal
agencies to further their own agenda. These Corps love "Big Government"
because it is used by them to discourage small business competitors and
manipulate the market.

Monsanto and the FDA -  perfect together.

Predatory Capitalism is not free market. It is the unholy alliance between
corporations, the Elites who control them, and the politico-paths who serve
them.

It is Statism. A variant of Facism. A blood relative of Socialism, Communism
and Nazism.

FLW

FLW

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[EASTERISLE]

 -Caveat Lector-

I wrote:

>(something about a slightly mixed economy)

In a message dated 12/26/98 3:49:36 AM, MJ wrote:

>Name one business one may participate (legally) which is devoid
>of government.

This has been an interesting discussion. I doubt we're going to find ourselves
all simultaneously agreeing to one single perfect economic solution anytime
soon, but I think it's very important to discuss this type of thing along with
the various other abuses and manipulations of power discussed on CTRL.
Disagreements aside, how can we expect to actually have a positive impact on
the status quo unless we mentally hack the system, as well as our own
preconceptions?

When I said "slightly mixed," I wasn't trying to deny that we live in Babylon,
and that we cannot escape Babylon's grip (Babylon as a metaphorical
representation of the United States). You cannot operate a "business" of any
substantial sort without entangling yourself with the government, and you
cannot gain employment legally without paying taxes, which go to support all
sorts of nasty stuff that  people generally wouldn't approve of if they
realized what was actually going on.

The question is, are you one of the few who the system is built to serve, or
are you one of the rabble which the system feeds upon? I guess that's what I
meant by "slightly mixed," in the sense (quoth Noam Chomsky) that we have in
effect a form of state socialism for the rich, with free markets reserved for
the poor. Those who are able to claw their way out of the free market and gain
entry to the "top of the pyramid club" will, on the way, learn all the
bloodthirsty tricks necessary to maintain their prosperous new positions. The
social rot begins to smell like roses; decay becomes new growth; crisis
becomes opportunity. Corporate execs draw $250,000 paychecks with $100,000
bonuses on a bad year (and blow every dime of it, saving surprisingly little),
while the kids in the public housing project down the road have to put plywood
over their windows because all the glass has been broken out.

But the system (any mass system) is perpetuated by building a conceptual "box"
(laws, regulations, social controls, etc.), then tricking and/or forcing as
many people as possible to stay within the box. Automatically the perpetuation
of this system becomes its primary occupation; that's a given. There is no
system that can be built which will be able to withstand the probing of those
who seek to use it to their own advantage.

Maybe the revolution will come one day, but even if it did, would anything new
really come along? The real revolution is within each of us -- the systematic
individual process of eliminating one's own contradictions, false values and
preconceptions. We have been conditioned since birth in a rancid sea of lies,
contradictory messages, dead ends, and greed-inspired motivations. We must
deprogram ourselves, dig deep into our own souls, and determine what exactly
it is we want to do in these 70-some-odd years that most of us are given on
this earth. Only when we have cleansed ourselves of the weaknesses instilled
by years of unconcious programming can we come together as a people and really
build a better society.

And it IS a matter of building alternative systems (while we continue to
resist and expose the evils of the old system). Look at that overpriced
machine sitting on your desk -- yeah, the one that's allowing you to read this
blathering email message, and reply to it if you so choose. It won't be long
until one of these gizmos is a necessary tool for pretty much any type of
economic activity. Go ahead, get rid of the government, extricate yourself all
you want. How the hell are you going to extricate yourself from Apple and
Microsoft (or CrappleSoft, if they ever get around to merging)? How are you
going to send email or check USENET without BellBeast's phone lines?

But technology, of course, is a two-edged sword. There are many, many
potential technological solutions that could help us set ourselves free, but
they must be solutions that are developed and initiated independently of the
established system. We must learn to survive independently in the midst of
Babylon's house, if for no other reason than to prove it can be done. Why not
set up an independent international network of Internet servers based on
packet radio? Why not set up an online bartering system and opt out of the
Beast system entirely? Why not organize corps of volunteer knowledge workers
and guerilla information activists to develop the software and hardware that
would be necessary to set up these alternatives? All we really need is food,
shelter and a little time.

There is no end to the possibilities, if people actually got together and
started DOING something. Again, it's important to debate economic issues as
thoroughly as one might beat a dead horse, but it is also extremely important
to put ideas into action. When our leaders are derelict and corrupt, we must
lead ourselves; wh

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
Huh?  The FDA is unconstitutional -- another protectionist,
vote-buying racket.

Kenn Thomas wrote:
   Like Monsanto gives a wit about the constitution. The FDA
   helped ensure that other milk producers could not advertise
   being "BGH Free", and that is helpful to Monsanto, but again
   it's something small compared to the ability of the corporation
   to produce and market BGH milk around the world. Hormone
   "enhanced" milk is a free market commodity, ostensibly
   developed in response to unregulated demand. "Ostensibly"
   because it's actually the creation of Monsanto's mad
   scientists and marketing managers and probably quite
   unhealthy and something consumers reject. That's a defacto
   form of regulation more powerful than the FDA.


MJ:
>From whence does a corporation derive its status?




MJ:
Place the government in its legitimate role and businesses
have no 'tool' for their use.
Kenn Thomas wrote:
  Corporations are transnational governments that take advantage
  of the local laws as best they can.

MJ:
If government is restrained to protecting all individuals from
FORCE and FRAUD, where exactly are the 'laws' by which this
'advantage' may be taken?


MJ:
 Reminds me of what another stated on a different list ...
 'sounds like blaming the cow for leaving the barn when you
 left the door open'.

Kenn Thomas wrote:
The cow in this case being the FDA or Monsanto?
MJ:
The Cow being *any* business ... which is permitted activities
by a government which has no mandate to participate in such.

Regard$,
--MJ

The state is the great fictitious entity by which everyone seeks
to live at the expense of everyone else.
-- Fredric Bastiat, early French economist

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

> Huh?  The FDA is unconstitutional -- another protectionist,
> vote-buying racket.

Like Monsanto gives a wit about the constitution. The FDA helped ensure that other
milk producers could not advertise being "BGH Free", and that is helpful to
Monsanto, but again it's something small compared to the ability of the
corporation to produce and market BGH milk around the world. Hormone "enhanced"
milk is a free market commodity, ostensibly developed in response to unregulated
demand. "Ostensibly" because it's actually the creation of Monsanto's mad
scientists and marketing managers and probably quite unhealthy and something
consumers reject. That's a defacto form of regulation more powerful than the FDA.

> Place the government in its legitimate role and businesses
> have no 'tool' for their use.

Corporations are transnational governments that take advantage of the local laws
as best they can.

> Reminds me of what another stated on a different list ... 'sounds like blaming
> the cow
> for leaving the barn when you left the door open'.

The cow in this case being the FDA or Monsanto?

kt

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/25/98 7:38:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>
>  > Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?
>
>  This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA is staffed with
> people
>  from industry. Like the other government agencies, it is a weak force
> compared to
>  the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could live without it--it has
> no
>  impact on European or Asian markets, for instance.
>
>  kt
>
I took this as a rhetorical question. The FDA is essentially a taxpayer funded
police force operated by the major entities in the food and drug industries to
prevent competition from outside the circle of elite players. The USDA is its
twin. Witness the destruction of Hudson Foods last year through media hype and
USDA pressure, then the acquisition of the ruins by Tyson Foods. Since (1)
Monsanto is based in the US economy, and (2) FDA powers have not yet been
usurped by some agency of a world government, the FDA probably remains very
important to companies like Monsanto.

Jim

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Teo1000]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/25/98 7:38:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA is staffed with
people
 from industry. Like the other government agencies, it is a weak force
compared to
 the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could live without it--it has
no
 impact on European or Asian markets, for instance.

 kt

 kt >>

This is an excellent observation.  The FDA is run by former business men and
the businesses (like Monsanto) frequently hire former FDA workers to work for
them.  It is a blatant conflict of interest in my opinion, especially in all
the talk about Nutrasweet and other questionable foodstuffs.
Teo1000

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Someone wrote:
  Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?

Kenn Thomas wrote:
This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA
is staffed with people from industry. Like the other
government agencies, it is a weak force compared to
the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could
live without it--it has no impact on European or Asian
markets, for instance.

MJ:
Huh?  The FDA is unconstitutional -- another protectionist,
vote-buying racket.

Place the government in its legitimate role and businesses
have no 'tool' for their use.  Reminds me of what another
stated on a different list ... 'sounds like blaming the cow
for leaving the barn when you left the door open'.

Regard$,
--MJ

Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
produces it, whether individually or in association,
provided that he respects the rights of others.
-- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nurev wrote:

  It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
  by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
  who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ wrote:
   Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

   Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
   state -- hardly a reality within the US.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   And while we do have a slightly mixed economy, ...

MJ:
'Slightly mixed'???

Name one business one may participate (legally) which is devoid
of government.

Regard$,
--MJ

Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
produces it, whether individually or in association,
provided that he respects the rights of others.
-- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

> Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?

This seems like a cart-before-the-horse question. The FDA is staffed with people
from industry. Like the other government agencies, it is a weak force compared to
the realities of global corporatism. Monsanto could live without it--it has no
impact on European or Asian markets, for instance.

kt

kt

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Daniel Holly]

 -Caveat Lector-

Russia must be a libertarian wet dream.
The government is minimal and the adventurous
entrepreneurs/capitalists are  in charge...


THE RUSSIAN MAFIA that is


DAN






-Original Message-
From: flw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, December 25, 1998 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?


> -Caveat Lector-
>
>>Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed economy
>>which
>>is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very worst of both
>>possibilities.
>>
>>It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism by owning
>>the government. And it's the poor and working class who enjoy the
>>bitter leftovers of capitalism.
>>
>>Joshua2
>
>It is kind of interesting how B.G.L.'s (Big Government Lovers) suffer a
>disconnect
>when expounding on "socialism" and "capitalism" in Amerika.
>
>Whether "Nazism", "Communism", or "Predatory Capitalism", what we are
really
>talking about is Statism in all its glory. You have a Sociopathic Elite who
>utilize and foster statist policies to control all facets of our economic
>and political life.
>
>Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?
>
>What they must have is coercive statism. Intrusive laws controlling all
>elements of our
>daily life in order to manipulate the system for their own advantage. They
>depend on
>social marxist dupes, those who expouse the New Secular Good Government
>Religion,  that "good government" throught its "enlightened policies"
>directed by "good people" will overcome the basic nature of Man and produce
>ultimately social and political Goodness.
>
>Evil Political / Sociopaths I can understand. They cannot help themselves.
>They are born defective. What sickens me are the "reformers", those who
feel
>"compassion" who ultimately support the policy of "let me help you or I
will
>have to hurt you" philosophy.
>
>The road to Political Hell is paved with "compassion" and "good
government".
>FLW
>
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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>
>Om

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

>Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed economy
>which
>is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very worst of both
>possibilities.
>
>It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism by owning
>the government. And it's the poor and working class who enjoy the
>bitter leftovers of capitalism.
>
>Joshua2

It is kind of interesting how B.G.L.'s (Big Government Lovers) suffer a
disconnect
when expounding on "socialism" and "capitalism" in Amerika.

Whether "Nazism", "Communism", or "Predatory Capitalism", what we are really
talking about is Statism in all its glory. You have a Sociopathic Elite who
utilize and foster statist policies to control all facets of our economic
and political life.

Where would Monsanto be without the F.D.A.?

What they must have is coercive statism. Intrusive laws controlling all
elements of our
daily life in order to manipulate the system for their own advantage. They
depend on
social marxist dupes, those who expouse the New Secular Good Government
Religion,  that "good government" throught its "enlightened policies"
directed by "good people" will overcome the basic nature of Man and produce
ultimately social and political Goodness.

Evil Political / Sociopaths I can understand. They cannot help themselves.
They are born defective. What sickens me are the "reformers", those who feel
"compassion" who ultimately support the policy of "let me help you or I will
have to hurt you" philosophy.

The road to Political Hell is paved with "compassion" and "good government".
FLW

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[EASTERISLE]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nurev wrote:

>   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
>   by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
>   who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ wrote:

>Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

>Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
>state -- hardly a reality within the US.


I agree, MJ, the economy is entangled with the state apparatus in Amerika --
but the people have for all intents and purposes been forcibly divorced from
their government. And while we do have a slightly mixed economy, the corporate
class receives the benefits of a socialist state apparatus, with "free
markets" for the poor, and for those who seek to remain independent from the
control structure. This in itself serves to repress and extinguish independent
thought in favor of programmed human behavior -- b ehavior based on
repetition, not insight or progress.

There don't seem to be any clear or easy answers, but obviously, it would be
an improvement if we had an economic system that focused primarily on human
creativity and innovation, instead of the mass hallucinations of the
marketplace and the unthinking, amoral pursuit of the direction of least
resistance. If we, as individuals, work to produce more than we consume (when
possible), and work to address actual human needs instead of the bizarre
hypercommodification of anything that registers with the public's neurons,
then to my mind it doesn't matter WHAT brand economy we have. With all
respect, though, as far as theoretical arguments go, neither socialism nor
capitalism are likely to save us any time soon. We need to build our own
economy.

Peace out & Merry Whatnot,
Charles Overbeck
ParaScope

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Caveat Lector-

Someone wrote:
 May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the
 one hand, and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark"
 capitalism (which we have in the US now)



MJ:
 May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts
 to malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?

  America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy
  with Government controls, regulations and planning to its
  detriment.

nurev wrote:
   Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
   economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very
   worst of both possibilities.

   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
   by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
   who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ:
Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.

As Thomas Sowell stated:

A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and
there is no more effective way to limit thought
than to control the language itself.  By changing
definitions of words through continual association,
any serious discussion involving the concepts that
the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled.

The words "democracy," "hate" and "racism"
immediately comes to mind.

What better way to malign liberty and freedom than calling
apples, oranges ... blaming the oranges for that which is
otherwise not possible.

Regard$,
--MJ

The policy of the American government is to leave their
citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in
their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Someone wrote:
 May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the
 one hand, and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark"
 capitalism (which we have in the US now)



MJ:
 May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts
 to malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?

  America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy
  with Government controls, regulations and planning to its
  detriment.

nurev wrote:
   Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
   economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very
   worst of both possibilities.

   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
   by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
   who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ:
Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.

As Thomas Sowell stated:

A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and
there is no more effective way to limit thought
than to control the language itself.  By changing
definitions of words through continual association,
any serious discussion involving the concepts that
the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled.

The words "democracy," "hate" and "racism"
immediately comes to mind.

What better way to malign liberty and freedom than calling
apples, oranges ... blaming the oranges for that which is
otherwise not possible.

Regard$,
--MJ

The policy of the American government is to leave their
citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in
their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"M. A. Johnson" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> At 05:18 AM 12/21/1998 -0500, Jim Condit Jr. wrote:
> > -Caveat Lector-
>
> >May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the one hand,
> >and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark" capitalism (which we
> >have in the US now)
>
> 
>
> MJ:
> May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts to
> malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?
>
> America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy with
> Government controls, regulations and planning to its detriment.
>
> Regard$,
> --MJ

Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed economy
which
is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very worst of both
possibilities.

It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism by owning
the government. And it's the poor and working class who enjoy the
bitter
leftovers of capitalism.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[L. Shipton]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: Jim Condit Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

Who seems to hold the keys to the patent and copyright offices?
The computer was suppose to take away a lot of jobs.  It seems as if the
jobs have just changed location.  Percentage wise are there more unemployed
then there were previously?  What has happened with the stock markets would
tend to fudge the actual figures - but to place the blame on technology?

Laura

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 05:18 AM 12/21/1998 -0500, Jim Condit Jr. wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-

>May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the one hand,
>and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark" capitalism (which we
>have in the US now)



MJ:
May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts to
malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?

America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy with
Government controls, regulations and planning to its detriment.

Regard$,
--MJ

The ideology of capitalism makes us all into connoisseurs of liberty-of the
indefinite expansion of possibility. -- Susan Sontag

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[Jim Condit Jr.]

 -Caveat Lector-

May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the one hand,
and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark" capitalism (which we
have in the US now) look into the system called Social Credit which was
originated in 1917 by C. H. Douglas. It is definitely not socialism and
"democratizes" all the elitist aspects of capitalism. Also, Pope Pius XI
wrote brilliantly on this subject in Quadragesima Anno in 1931, explaining
that Finance (loanshark) Capitalism which concentrates wealth in the hands
of the few -- sows the seeds of discontent (due to injustice) which
contributes to the workers turning in desperation to Socialism or Communism
-- where they find themselves in a worse trap. Pat Buchanan and Jerry Brown
understands this. William Buckley and the whole lot of "free market"
Republicans do not. Most Democrats are just closet socialists anyway, so
don't expect anything from them. Jim Condit Jr. The Social Credit website
is: http://www.scss.gil.com.au/ -- and the Michael Journal website is:
http://www.connection.com/~rysio/...   here's a sample essay from
each:

WHAT IS SOCIAL CREDIT ABOUT?

SOCIAL CREDIT comprises interlocking concepts of economics and politics
which deal with the just relationship between Man and the Society he lives
in.
ECONOMICS
The progressive application of science and technology to all aspects of
production is increasingly capable of providing a sufficiency for all, with
ever fewer people employed in the process. Hence, in developed economies,
'unemployment' exists side by side with 'overproduction' and 'overcapacity'
- i.e. 'poverty amidst plenty' in all its manifestations.
Unlike orthodox economics, Social Credit identifies the major factor in
this situation as the Cultural Heritage, the accumulated knowledge derived
from generations of scientists, engineers and inventors which underpins the
mechanisation, robotisation and computerisation in industry, commerce and
agriculture. The effect of the cultural heritage is simultaneously to
provide an abundance of goods and services while depriving an increasing
proportion of the population of access to them through loss of income from
employment.
Unlike orthodox economics which advocates 'economic growth' to provide more
jobs, Social Credit recognises that the cultural heritage is an inheritance
common to all, with each individual a tenant-for-life and thereby entitled
to a dividend over and above his earnings. Collectively, such dividends
would help bridge the gap between purchasing power and prices which is the
root cause of 'recessions'.
To forestall any possibility of inflation, the National Dividend to
individuals as of right would be matched by a reduction in retail prices by
the mechanism of a Compensated Price. This is best visualised as a negative
VAT, or negative GST, or a negative Sales Tax, by which retail prices would
be reduced by an amount calculated under a correct formula, instead of
being increased as under current methods.
To finance both the National Dividend and the Compensated Price requires a
major correction in the current financial accounting system to ensure it
accurately reflects economic reality - i.e., abundance, instead of
distorting it as scarcity. In other words, to make financially possible
whatever is physically possibly and socially desirable. The techniques
involved in introducing these reforms are fully explained in available
literature.
POLITICS
These reforms require that a well-informed electorate are enabled to demand
the results they require by applying sufficient pressure on their
representatives under the sanction of dismissal if the results are not
achieved. This concept envisages the progressive replacement of party
politics by restoring the political initiative to the voters, e.g. through
a process of Direct Democracy or Initiated Referenda. This procedure
together with bodies such as Voters' Policy Associations would formulate
the results required, not the technical methods of achieving them.
Political parties represent particular interests and submit their party
manifestos, reflecting these interests, to the voters. Conflicting
arguments such as nationalisation, privatisation, or between more or less
taxation, serve to divide and rule the electorate on technicalities they
are not qualified to decide upon. By contrast, provided that the result
demanded is shown to be physically possible, the electorate could unite in
such a demand as 'End Poverty amidst Plenty'.
SUMMARY
Social Credit stands for optimum economic and political freedom for each
individual by ensuring (a) consumer control over production - i.e.,
economic democracy; (b) voter control over policy - i.e., political
democracy. Social Credit stands against the political party system; the
existing financial system; and the concentration of power over individuals,
whether economic or political, or in any other form. These concepts derive
from the published works of C.H. Douglas.


Where does m

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Gold wrote:
>
> Hi Joshua 2.
>
> Sorry to write you off list but I have a hard time writing on list for
> a variety of reasons.
>
> You mentioned a few times that you are an anti-capitalist and
> anti-socialist.
>
> Could you either on or off list explain what kind of system you believe
> in.(By the way, I respect the way you aproach things in general, and am
> very curious what system you believe in.)
>
> tibor

Dear Tibor,

Hod voyd? Quite frankly, it doesn't exist. But something approaching it
could be described as a form of mixed economy. A synthesis of the better
aspects of Socialism and Capitalism or anything else for that matter.

If you get beyond the ideology of both major systems and look at what
they actually do ( have done ), you can pick and choose from both. The
very first place to look is among the Elites of both systems. The
Capitalists Elites love the security socialism. But only for themselves.
The Socialist Elites love the wealth that capitalist projects produce.
But there is really not enough for both greed and need.

I can't present you with a finished product but I know the raw materials
necessary to build a composite system for now and the near future.

Elitism - is why we have never had an equitable social system since the
dawn of agriculture. Permanent elites MUST NEVER BE ALLOWED TO ESTABLISH
THEMSELVES. Rotate often through democratic control.

Accumulation and centralization of wealth ( and economic power ) is why
societies disintegrate into crime, violence and revolution.

Ownership of the means of production has been in the hands of the State
under ( Elite led ) Socialism, and in private Elite hands under Capitalism.
There is no reason why workers shouldn't own their means of production. No
reason that is except that ambitious thieves don't want to give up the
goose that manufactures golden eggs.

A few simple thoughts on a complex issue.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om