Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
Another star of hope rising? The Compositor Modules "COMO" To Build Wayland Compositors Have Arrived [ https://www.phoronix.com/review/the-compositor-modules-como ] In the middle of the article: "I put a lot of work into making sure that The Compositor Modules are ... modular and open to any use case from big to small." > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 09:44:15PM +0100, Manfred_Knick wrote: ...>> To me, "Wayland Compositor" really seems to be the crux of the matter. >> >> Unfortunately, I very much doubt that anybody will undergo the endurance >> to enlarge ctwm into such a full-blown beast Perhaps, the approaches described in the second half of the article could ease that pain? Kind regards Manfred
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
Hmm, that's an interesting window/desktop manager I hadn't heard of
before. It doesn't seem to be quite as flexible as ctwm, but it might
be more similar to it than other Wayland options.
On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 09:44:15PM +0100, Manfred_Knick wrote:
>
> Servus!
>
> "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
>
> Dante Alighieri, Inferno
>
> To me, "Wayland Compositor" really seems to be the crux of the matter.
>
> Unfortunately, I very much doubt that anybody will undergo the endurance
> to enlarge ctwm into such a full-blown beast.
>
>
> Anybody who is looking for a really *very* minimalistic compositor
> might risk a look at *dwl* which is "dwm for Wayland":
>
> [ https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl ]
>
> based on wlroots.
>
> I would by no means call it an "alternative" to ctwm,
> and many will deeply miss ctwm's "beauty",
> as already stated in a former post.
>
> But it definitely works reliable and solid,
> including XWayland and X applications,
> the "usual suspects", KDE apps, ... ,
> up to non-free SW like VMware Workstation.
>
> At second glance it offers more versatiliy than it's first look promised.
>
>
> Primarily, I'm running this on an otherwise pretty "stable" Gentoo
> workstation,
> exploiting a 4-Screen ( 2 x 2 ) setup,
> DPs driven by current nvidia (you are welcome to blame on me).
>
> Also tested on-the-road_Tumbleweed_Notebook.
>
>
> Packages involved ( /etc/portage/package.accept_keywords ) :
>
> #
> ##
>
>dev-util/spirv-llvm-translator# req. by intel_clc
>dev-util/intel_clc# req. by mesa
>media-libs/mesa
>x11-apps/mesa-progs
>
> #
> ##
>
>dev-libs/wayland **
>dev-libs/wayland-protocols**
> # gui-libs/egl-wayland
>dev-util/wayland-scanner **
>x11-base/xwayland **
>
>gui-apps/wlr-randr** # guru
># <--- fetch manually
>
>gui-libs/wlroots **
>media-libs/libdisplay-info#
># req. by wlroots-
>
>gui-wm/dwl** # # savedconfig# !
> shiftview # req. wlroots:0/
>x11-libs/libdrm
>
>dev-libs/bemenu ** #
>
>gui-apps/foot
>dev-libs/tllist # req. by foot
>
> # gui-apps/wl-clipboard #* # <-- wl-copy wl-paste
>
> # gui-apps/grim #* # grim -o { HDMI-0 DP-1 DP-2
> DP-3 } -t jpeg -q 90
> # gui-apps/slurp#* # grim -g "$(slurp)"
> -t jpeg -q 90
> # app-text/scdoc#* # req. by slurp
>
> #
> ##
>
>
> Start alias:
>
> alias dwl4='/usr/bin/dwl -s .../w'
>
>
> with
>
> $ cat .../w
>
> #!/bin/bash
> wlr-randr --output DP-1 --pos 0,0
> wlr-randr --output DP-2 --pos 0,1440
> wlr-randr --output DP-3 --pos 2560,1440
> wlr-randr --output HDMI-A-1 --pos 2560,0
>
>
> For me, "shiftview" definitely is a must-have enhancement for efficiency:
>
> https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl-patches
>
> https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl-patches/src/branch/main/shiftview/shiftview.patch
>
>
> In the hope that perhaps this might prove useful for somebody
>
> Kind regards
>
> Manfred
>
--
-Mike
Rident stolidi verba Latina.
-Ovid
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
Servus!
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Dante Alighieri, Inferno
To me, "Wayland Compositor" really seems to be the crux of the matter.
Unfortunately, I very much doubt that anybody will undergo the endurance
to enlarge ctwm into such a full-blown beast.
Anybody who is looking for a really *very* minimalistic compositor
might risk a look at *dwl* which is "dwm for Wayland":
[ https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl ]
based on wlroots.
I would by no means call it an "alternative" to ctwm,
and many will deeply miss ctwm's "beauty",
as already stated in a former post.
But it definitely works reliable and solid,
including XWayland and X applications,
the "usual suspects", KDE apps, ... ,
up to non-free SW like VMware Workstation.
At second glance it offers more versatiliy than it's first look promised.
Primarily, I'm running this on an otherwise pretty "stable" Gentoo workstation,
exploiting a 4-Screen ( 2 x 2 ) setup,
DPs driven by current nvidia (you are welcome to blame on me).
Also tested on-the-road_Tumbleweed_Notebook.
Packages involved ( /etc/portage/package.accept_keywords ) :
#
##
dev-util/spirv-llvm-translator# req. by intel_clc
dev-util/intel_clc# req. by mesa
media-libs/mesa
x11-apps/mesa-progs
#
##
dev-libs/wayland **
dev-libs/wayland-protocols**
# gui-libs/egl-wayland
dev-util/wayland-scanner **
x11-base/xwayland **
gui-apps/wlr-randr** # guru
# <--- fetch manually
gui-libs/wlroots **
media-libs/libdisplay-info#
# req. by wlroots-
gui-wm/dwl** # # savedconfig# !
shiftview # req. wlroots:0/
x11-libs/libdrm
dev-libs/bemenu ** #
gui-apps/foot
dev-libs/tllist # req. by foot
# gui-apps/wl-clipboard #* # <-- wl-copy wl-paste
# gui-apps/grim #* # grim -o { HDMI-0 DP-1 DP-2
DP-3 } -t jpeg -q 90
# gui-apps/slurp#* # grim -g "$(slurp)"
-t jpeg -q 90
# app-text/scdoc#* # req. by slurp
#
##
Start alias:
alias dwl4='/usr/bin/dwl -s .../w'
with
$ cat .../w
#!/bin/bash
wlr-randr --output DP-1 --pos 0,0
wlr-randr --output DP-2 --pos 0,1440
wlr-randr --output DP-3 --pos 2560,1440
wlr-randr --output HDMI-A-1 --pos 2560,0
For me, "shiftview" definitely is a must-have enhancement for efficiency:
https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl-patches
https://codeberg.org/dwl/dwl-patches/src/branch/main/shiftview/shiftview.patch
In the hope that perhaps this might prove useful for somebody
Kind regards
Manfred
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
"For now, I'm blissfully running Xorg as if it'll be with us for another 30 years, keeping my head firmly in the sand," I am right next to you, head buried just as firmly! When Fedora 40 is out and supposedly doesn't offer Xorg X11 servers, I plan to do a test to see what packages are installed when I install ctwm from RPM Sphere and whether it will work. On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 7:00 PM Stefan Monnier wrote: > > apps on your Wayland desktop. So even if everything works right, ctwm > > there could only ever manage those X windows, not the native Wayland > > ones. And if all the other clients you're running are X11 anyway, > > then you wouldn't need to be running Wayland in the first place. > > That's a bit pessimistic: running Xwayland on top of Wayland does have > the advantage (compared to running Xorg directly) that both Wayland and > Xwayland are maintained. So in the not-too-distant-future it may be the > *only* way to go even if you use nothing else than X11 applications. > > [ IIUC, Xwayland has some significant shortcomings, but I can't > remember what they are. For now, I'm blissfully running Xorg as if > it'll be with us for another 30 years, keeping my head firmly in the > sand, even tho most of my machines require an `xorg.conf` to turn off > UseGammaLUT otherwise the system freezes at startup, and there's no > movement on the corresponding Debian bug. ] > > > Stefan > >
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
> apps on your Wayland desktop. So even if everything works right, ctwm > there could only ever manage those X windows, not the native Wayland > ones. And if all the other clients you're running are X11 anyway, > then you wouldn't need to be running Wayland in the first place. That's a bit pessimistic: running Xwayland on top of Wayland does have the advantage (compared to running Xorg directly) that both Wayland and Xwayland are maintained. So in the not-too-distant-future it may be the *only* way to go even if you use nothing else than X11 applications. [ IIUC, Xwayland has some significant shortcomings, but I can't remember what they are. For now, I'm blissfully running Xorg as if it'll be with us for another 30 years, keeping my head firmly in the sand, even tho most of my machines require an `xorg.conf` to turn off UseGammaLUT otherwise the system freezes at startup, and there's no movement on the corresponding Debian bug. ] Stefan
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 01:57:15PM -0600 I heard the voice of Quentin Barnes, and lo! it spake thus: > > I've heard this. But I've also see discussions on "best window > managers for Wayland", so I'm not really sure how to take that. > > I would assume it's because of how Wayland compositors also have the > job of WMs, so the old roles from the X11 world just don't map > cleanly to Wayland. It's my understanding that it works out that a "Wayland compositor" subsumes the "window manager" functions, but also includes something like the upper half of the X server too. So, "porting" to Wayland basically means reimplementing a lot of the X server in your WM. My suspicion would be that building something new that acted ctwm-ish on top of some existing wayland thing (e.g., wlroots, but from what I've heard such things really _aren't_ as flexible and easy to build what you want on as the sales story says), would be a more profitable route than trying to pile all that into our codebase as-is. The dearth of other wm ports seems to support that. I believe there's at least a living community of tiling WM fans that have enough mass to be doing some stuff on Wayland; that might be a place to look for something that could be strongarmed into acting more floating-ish. Also I think Wayland is all-in on client-side decorations, so all the framing and reparenting wouldn't fit so well there either. Though I'm certainly not a Wayland expert. Maybe it's easier than I think. Well... it probably can _only_ be easier than I think;) As far as Xwayland, I'd start out guessing that ctwm would run on it OK, but that probably wouldn't help you with much. I believe Xwayland is basically Xnest or the like (except rootless), letting you run X apps on your Wayland desktop. So even if everything works right, ctwm there could only ever manage those X windows, not the native Wayland ones. And if all the other clients you're running are X11 anyway, then you wouldn't need to be running Wayland in the first place. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fulle...@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:00 AM Quentin Barnes wrote: > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 08:11:32AM -0500, Michael George wrote: > > Hello everyone. > > > > I've been using CTWM since the 1990s, so about from the beginning. At > > work I run CTWM on Fedora, but I read that Fedora 40 is going to be all > > Wayland. > > I'm in the same boat as you. I've been using ctwm since the mid-'90s > and Fedora has been my preferred desktop OS for the past several > years. > I run Gentoo Linux at home, so I will probably have more time before I lose my CTWM there. However, I like having similar environments for home and work. > I searched the mailing list archives and I didn't find many posts > > referencing Wayland. Given that ctwm is a rather niche application, I > > fear that it will not work in the Wayland world. > > > > Is it as simple as installing Xwayland and then continuing on as in the > > good ol' days of X11R5? > > I'm concerned that Xwayland won't be a well-supported solution, > especially for X11 programs that use window manager features of X11. > Even if stability isn't an issue, I'm concerned about performance > of all the additional layers. And if I'm proved wrong on either or > both counts, I'll be delighted! > > Aside from stability and performance concerns, I'm wondering what > kind of limitations will be imposed on Xwayland programs that > wouldn't be present under X11. The limitations I've seen so far > using Wayland programs annoy me. I'm not sure if those are default > limitations of Wayland and can be lifted if I just knew the right > configuration changes to make, or if that's just the way things will > be from now on. > > I'm hopeful that RPM Fusion or other third party repositories for > Fedora will pick up Xorg server and utilities. However, that would > be a lot of work since all X11 programs would need to be picked up > and maintained as well the X11 server, so I consider such a path, > even if someone's willing to do it, just a stop-gap. > I agree with many of your concerns above. I hope that other repos will give us a bit more life with the apps we have used for decades. > I'm also curious what would happen running FlatPaks with > Wayland-only builds of programs running on top of an X11 server. > Does anyone know off-hand? > > As possible medium- and long-term paths, I see for myself: > >- Switch to a distro that'll support X11 for a longer term. > Right now I'm thinking RHEL or Debian. > RHEL has announced it will take the same path as Fedora with version 11. However, 9 will be around for quite a while. I am guessing that Alma and Rocky will follow suit, but mabye not. >- Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Wayland. > Same here, but I'm not familiar with the amount of effort that may be involved. >- Find a Wayland WM with all the features of ctwm that I like. (Ha!) > Yeah, I have looked at other WM's over the years. Nothing is quite like CTWM, especially after the configurations I've become accustomed to using. One other option is Wayland and the limited desktop environments isn't sufficient for many users and there will be resistance. Or, Wayland will be improved. > Thank you. >
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:34:27PM +0100, Rhialto wrote: > On Mon 19 Feb 2024 at 10:00:17 -0600, Quentin Barnes wrote: > >- Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Wayland. > > One of the problems of Wayland is that it doesn't *have* the concept of > window managers... I've heard this. But I've also see discussions on "best window managers for Wayland", so I'm not really sure how to take that. I would assume it's because of how Wayland compositors also have the job of WMs, so the old roles from the X11 world just don't map cleanly to Wayland. Instead, they get stripped-down and resliced up. > -Olaf. > -- > ___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert > \X/ There is no AI. There is just someone else's work. --I. Rose
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
On Mon 19 Feb 2024 at 10:00:17 -0600, Quentin Barnes wrote: >- Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Wayland. One of the problems of Wayland is that it doesn't *have* the concept of window managers... -Olaf. -- ___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert \X/ There is no AI. There is just someone else's work. --I. Rose signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 08:11:32AM -0500, Michael George wrote: > Hello everyone. > > I've been using CTWM since the 1990s, so about from the beginning. At > work I run CTWM on Fedora, but I read that Fedora 40 is going to be all > Wayland. I'm in the same boat as you. I've been using ctwm since the mid-'90s and Fedora has been my preferred desktop OS for the past several years. > I searched the mailing list archives and I didn't find many posts > referencing Wayland. Given that ctwm is a rather niche application, I > fear that it will not work in the Wayland world. > > Is it as simple as installing Xwayland and then continuing on as in the > good ol' days of X11R5? I'm concerned that Xwayland won't be a well-supported solution, especially for X11 programs that use window manager features of X11. Even if stability isn't an issue, I'm concerned about performance of all the additional layers. And if I'm proved wrong on either or both counts, I'll be delighted! Aside from stability and performance concerns, I'm wondering what kind of limitations will be imposed on Xwayland programs that wouldn't be present under X11. The limitations I've seen so far using Wayland programs annoy me. I'm not sure if those are default limitations of Wayland and can be lifted if I just knew the right configuration changes to make, or if that's just the way things will be from now on. I'm hopeful that RPM Fusion or other third party repositories for Fedora will pick up Xorg server and utilities. However, that would be a lot of work since all X11 programs would need to be picked up and maintained as well the X11 server, so I consider such a path, even if someone's willing to do it, just a stop-gap. I'm also curious what would happen running FlatPaks with Wayland-only builds of programs running on top of an X11 server. Does anyone know off-hand? As possible medium- and long-term paths, I see for myself: - Switch to a distro that'll support X11 for a longer term. Right now I'm thinking RHEL or Debian. - Do what I can to encourage the community to port ctwm to Wayland. - Find a Wayland WM with all the features of ctwm that I like. (Ha!) > Thank you.
Fedora 40, Wayland, and ctwm
Hello everyone. I've been using CTWM since the 1990s, so about from the beginning. At work I run CTWM on Fedora, but I read that Fedora 40 is going to be all Wayland. I searched the mailing list archives and I didn't find many posts referencing Wayland. Given that ctwm is a rather niche application, I fear that it will not work in the Wayland world. Is it as simple as installing Xwayland and then continuing on as in the good ol' days of X11R5? Thank you.
