CS: Pol-Marginal seats
From: "James McNair", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re an earlier discussion about voting intentions heres a list of marginal seats if anyone needs them : Conservative : Chipping Barnet (maj 2.1%) ; Bosworth (2.0%) ; Uxbridge (1.7%) ; Boston & Skegness (1.4%) ; Meriden (1.1%) ; Bury St Edmunds (0.7%) ; Lichfield (0.5%) ; Hexham (0.5%) ; Bedfordshire South-West (0.2%) ; Dorset South (0.2%). Labour : Wellinborough (0.3%) ; Kettering (0.3%) ; North East Milton Keynes (0.5%) ; Rugby & Kenilworth (0.8%) ; Northampton South (1.3%) ; Romford (1.5%) ; Lancaster & Wyre (2.2%) ; Harwich (2.3%) ; North West Norfolk (2.3%) ; Castle Point (2.4%) ; Harrow West (2.4%) ; Bristol West (2.4%) ; Braintree (2.6%) ; Shrewsbury & Atcham (3.0%) ; Enfield, Southgate (3.1%) ; Conwy (3.8%) ; Gillingham (3.9%) . regards website : http://www.btinternet.com/~jmcnair -- The mention of Lichfield is interesting. The south seat is Labour but is almost certain to go Conservative as it was a safe tory seat forever until the local MP died and Labour won in a by-election in 1996 as I recall. Michael Fabricant is the MP for Lichfield, North and is also on the Home Affairs Committee. It's far more likely that Labour are going to lose out in Lichfield, IMO. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-fox leg pate
From: "Christopher Gould", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here is the simple but authentic recipe from Brittany Cut the best meat from the back legs into cubes about half an inch. Fry in butter with diced garlic, salt, pepper and herbs to taste till golden brown. Put in a liquidiser, pour on a cup of melted butter. Liquidise. Pour into a mould or bowl. Allow to set Voila! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Muzzle Energy formula
From: "Charles Parker", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Muzzle energy in ft/lbs = velocity(ft/sec) squared x bullet weight (grains) divided by 450436 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: MIsc-population densities
From: "Royall, Nick E", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Japan has a lesser population density than Britain but its laws are based on a feudal heirarchy which hasnt really died out. Singapore and Hong kong were British Colonies and did what we wanted them to do so who is to blame there?holland has a greater population density than Britain but does not ban everything at the drop of a hat, most of its sillier laws are a legacy of the nazi occupation (same as germany's) hweras France and Spain have legacies of individual freedom but mass obedience from their dictatorships in their laws. I really dont see where our draconian governmental thought comes from other than the divine right of kings being usurped by the crooks in parliament. Nick -- The Netherlands has a much tougher licensing system than we do, although most types of handguns are still legal there (except replicas and deacts which are inexplicably banned, as well as "small" handguns). Their licensing system for shotguns is massively more restrictive than ours. I don't agree that they are a "legacy" of the Nazi occupation, the Netherlands first imposed a licensing system in the 1890s and then "modernised" them in 1919 into the basis of their current system. That law has been changed and consolidated many times since then, most recently I think in 1998. The Nazis had nothing to do with it as far as I am aware. Japan's current laws developed out of the imposed controls put on them ironically by the US occupation force, I have a copy of it somewhere. Although it is fair to say the underlying reason for them keeping them is a history of strict firearms control going back to the invention of guns. Also they have a lower population density only because of the mountains there. The actual population density of inhabitable areas is much higher than here. It is a fact that I have noticed that as a country becomes more urbanised their gun laws become tougher. It is almost invariably the case. I cannot think of many exceptions. Certainly the laws in Singapore and HK are based on ours, but that is true of the licensing systems of pretty much every English speaking country on the face of the Earth except the US. Lesotho as an example based their 1966 law on our 1937 law. The point is that Singapore could have long since ditched their laws but they haven't, they made them even tougher. Note that places with low population densities like Australia and New Zealand went in the reverse direction. With the exception of Western Australia, the Australians resisted the registration of rifles in the 1920s and most States didn't have much in the way of controls on long guns until the 1980s. New Zealand copied our 1920 Act as well, but it was eventually dumped in 1983. It is only a few high profile crimes that have reversed that trend in Australia, although it's fair to say they have also become increasingly urbanised. I found an interesting French study on urbanisation, apparently the French Government at one point considered it a threat to the French way of life and attempted to stop it by encouraging people to move to rural areas. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Proliferation of Small Arms
From: "Jeff Wood", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Craig wrote: "Perhaps someone should remind Robin Cook and his erstwhile colleagues at the UN that, in the last recorded case of genocide, in Rwanda, the large majority of the 1 million or so people murdered were beaten to death with sticks or cut to pieces with machetes or similar heavy duty knives." I don't know about the proportions of murders by machetes and so on, though I recall a TV programme which showed long range film, shot by a Frenchman I think, of some poor sod being chopped up while folk passed by, hardly paying attention. According to a report in the Observer of London some time in the past few months, a good number of deaths were inflicted using the AK. The arms were supplied to the Hutus by Egypt, and dealings were conducted by the Egyptian Foreign Ministry. The Foreign Minister at the time was a fellow called Boutros Boutros-Ghali, later Secretary-General of the United Nations. This is not to contradict Jim's point, but to expand it a little in the direction of political responsibility, which now extends to the civil war in the Congo, made incomparably worse by the involvement of the genocidal Hutus driven out of Rwanda . Yours sincerely Jeff Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Public PGP Key at: ldap://certserver.pgp.com -- The point is that small arms are easy to make, Egypt makes them and Zimbabwe makes ammo as well. Does Robin Cook seriously expect Robert Mugabe to follow him? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Ron Owen on Australian situation
From: "pendrous", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Firearm Owners Association of Australia > > Box 346 Gympie > Queensland 4570 > Phone 07 54825070 > Fax 07 54824716 > > Message to all Firearm Owners in Australia > Operation Strike Back 100% Victorious > In 1996 Howard, Fisher, Cooper and Borbridge were all warned by the FOAA > that if they continued to ignore the individual rights of Firearm Owners, > traditionally their core supporters, that they, having 'sown the wind would > reap the whirlwind'. They were told in no uncertain terms via, thousands of > letters, faxes personal visits by former members and in countless media > interviews by our executive, that to proceed with the dictatorial Gun Laws > would be political suicide. That they would end up taking all their MP's to > parliament in a bongo van. > They did not want to listen, in fact Cooper and Borbridge invited the FOAA > executive to a conference, prior to the introduction of the Act and then > cancelled the meeting at the last minute, saying we were considered > 'INTRACTABLE' that means, unsubmissive, unyielding, uncompromising, and it > was true. We would not compromise the rights of our members by 'treating' > with the enemy. > The Road Back > It has taken nearly four years, countless days and many nights of burning > the midnight oil by thousands of Firearm Owners throughout Australia but the > Liberal, National betrayal has finally been driven to its conclusion. Every > state Government that agreed to the Inter-National Gun Laws has been thrown > out of office, the Nationals and Liberals as a political force in this > country are now a non event. Cooper has Resigned, Fisher has resigned, > Borbridge has resigned and Prime Minister Howard is riding an (at the most > six months) avalanche of disenchantment into a chasm that the > Liberal/National coalition will never crawl out from. > 'Bang Bang And You're Dead' > quote by Sir Richard Court referring to One Nation's effect on the West > Australian Liberal Party. > 'One Nation' the machine that has produced this stunning result would not > have had substance if the shooters did not supply the legs. Both the Firearm > Owners and Pauline have both been quoted as saying that 'Pauline is the > Train Driver and the Firearm Owners are the Engines and Wheels'. We have > split Liberal and National asunder, now One Nation is the fastest growing > political force in Australia's history. > Only One More Party To Beat > Of the three Major Parties whose 'bi-partisan', or as I would call it > 'Tyrannical' behaviour introduced the Inter-National Gun Laws in 1996 there > is only one left. Labour. It seems that the only vehicle that has a chance > of bringing Labour to its knees is, One Nation. One Nation is the only > Opposition. > Labour is the last one to go, it cannot hide now behind a shield of Liberal > Socialists, it's on its own, isolated ready to be knocked off its perch. > Labour has not won an election on its merits, it offers no solutions, no > fairer attitude to the electorate, it has only sat on the sidelines > benefitting from the massive split in the coalition parties. As all action > causes re-action. Labours 10% swing, a backlash from Liberal due to GST can > soon swing to One Nation with the certainty of a ticking clock. > Let's do it. > Ron Owen Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting venues in New Jersey?
From: Paul Bartomioli, [EMAIL PROTECTED] having lived in NJ for 10 years, I offer this advice: forget it. paul bartomioli Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values..
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The E-mail about "black faces" at Pistol A.D. was not meant to be sarcastic in that sense but to show that perception is, in fact, not always reality. It is the same with the disparagement of those who wear ex-surplus "cammo gear". The perception seems to have been that all of these "types" are sad Rambo fantasists. The reality may be that they appreciate buying hard wearing well made practical items of clothing for a fraction of its true cost of manufacture simply because it is ex-surplus. It is nice to be able to afford a Haggart's tweed shooting suit that is warm, fits well and gives blends in as "camouflage" if stalking. But for a tenth of that I can buy exactly the same thing that because it is not tweed but a cloth printed with disruptive pattern colour is condemned as "cammo gear". But a good tweed is, in its reality, nothing more than rich man's "cammo gear". ___ Thank you for explaining what you meant and I certainly appreciate the practical side of ex.military clothing. But when you add a few rings in ears and through eyebrows, beard down to the waist, pony tail and a plastic bag full of bear cans (to be discarded anywhere when empty) you get the impression of a gentleman of independent means. One that does not need a job; does not care whether his appearance or behaviour causes offence; a true free spirit that signals "sod off" to the rest of us! Clearly, there are several stages between the genuine person who wears "cammo gear" and the type that I describe and there are exceptions to any generalisation, of course. My point was that if we want the society to tolerate our sport and grant us the privilege of free choice, then raising two fingers to every known convention is not likely to cause anything but contempt and that is bad news. Am I wrong? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-instant incapacitation
From: "Derek Bernard", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >In the case you mention (I think it's the same one, from Miami) the >kid actually survived and is in a mental hospital. He is a vegetable >and blind but he lived. > Steve A different case. The one I was quoting was a New York drug dealer, being executed by his own people. He died very soon afterwards. Derek Bernard Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values..
From: "Royall, Nick E", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would disagree with the analogy between shooting and golf, golf has no charitable purpose and around a thousand times more rules than shooting so there will undoubtedly be rules on clothing etc because there are 2000 rules for complaining about other rules. I prefer the challenge of myself, my rifle and the conditions at the time to see how well I can do rather than worrying whether a tree is a natural or man-made hazard just because I hit my ball the wrong side of it. I used to play golf in cut off jeans and incorrect footwear, there again the golf course I played on belonged to a shooter and had no silly "club" rules, just the challenge of doing ones best with possible rivalry with friends. since shooting is for the defence of the realm I suggest a few hundred rules to make wearing issue camo gear compulsory, no bright red leather shooting jackets with yellow waterproof trousers, everyone will get equally wet and miserable. the only alternative is to stop moaning and let people enjoy what they do as long as it is safe. nick Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Richard: [...] A. Because the chasing of a fox by hounds is not the act of a "wild predatory" animal but the use of domestic animals selectively bred by human beings (since the days of Hugo Meynell) for pleasure in seeing hounds "work" u under the skilled control of their Huntsman. There is nothing "natural" in the United Kingdom of a group of dogs chasing another for three, four, five or even ten to twenty miles until it is exhausted and then killing it. [...] Well, do you not consider humans to be natural? If certain predatory animals hunt in packs -- and if humans also hunt in packs, and if crows & ravens often fly ahead of packs of wolves, in the direction of the prey -- not unlike hunting dogs conducting the same operation, then are humans unnatural in this regard, yet animals not? To simply equate human activity as unnecessary merely because there is no real need to assuage hunger, is the same thing as condemning a domesticated dog's instinct that causes it to chase other animals in its quest to sate the natural desire. It is, in relevant terms, the same thing as ridiculing someone for employing a slide rule when they might avail themselves to a modern computer. That someone wants to pursue an older way of doing things is no reason to condemn them. If they pursue the act in a wasteful way, then there is room for ridicule. [...] A. Because the "rules" of fox hunting by mounted packs are concerned with prolonging the hunt and thus seeing hounds "work" and not with controlling foxes. Otherwise why when a fox is dug out after "going to earth" is it given a "field and a fence" and hounds not immediately allowed to fall upon it and kill it? [...] To give it a chance? Why not put the question direct to the people conducting the hunt? Does every fox get killed that is put to the hunt? If the answer is not, then it seems that the hunters are being more than a bit kind. They might well have ended its life when it was captured initially. [...] A.Primitive humans that do today, or have in pre-history, killed animals in a "barbaric way" do so to survive by eating that animal. It needs not "justification" as it is "necessity". If one has neither gun, nor bow and arrow that is powerful enough, nor the use of a horse to pursue and spear the quarry then the last resort is to drive a bison over a cliff so that it may be killed in that way. [...] I might remind you, Richard, that cliffs are some pretty rare real estate. The only other option is to face the quarry direct. Not a pretty sight. Wolves have the habit of eating their prey alive, i.e., while it is still alive and breathing, the pack is munching down. Lions too, among others. Humans are perhaps the only mammalian species that attempts to makes sure the prey is dead before consuming it. [...] A.When it becomes not a "necessity" to either kill vermin or an edible quarry species but a "pleasure" falsely justified by calling it a "necessity". [...] Well, then, by that definition, none of us 'need' hunt at all, owing to the fact that everything we 'need' to survive is provided in one way or another by the mass market and distributed so efficiently and at such a 'reasonable price' as to negate any thought of hunting at all. Freedom of choice is at risk here. But then, the ultimate destination that arrives of your thinking in this matter would also deprive us of many other earthly pleasures, based simply as it were on the same theme as you state above. It doesn't take much thought to see where it would lead. It devolves to a question of 'choice'. Will you be deprived of a choice in the matter, simply because a group of people who form the majority are disenchanted with the idea of hunting a certain way? Or, hunting at all? Ultimately it falls to a matter of degree, determined by a group of people who have never participated, who have no interest, and who could care less about your own feelings: only that they get to lord it over everybody else who thinks differently than you. It allows them to feel powerful, and that feeling of power is intoxicating indeed! This year we take half; next year we take more -- or the rest. [...] A.Foxhounds are not doing what is a "natural proclivity". The "sport" of fox hunting as we know it today is not much more than two hundred years old. It can be said that its "father" was Hugo Meynell in the Nineteenth Century! The very purpose of "cubbing" is to allow the Huntsman to select out, recognise and kill those hounds who in fact do follow their "natural proclivity" in that they have no innate desire to chase or kill foxes. Only those hounds that act, in reality, contrary to their natural instincts by seeking to chase and kill the fox are those that are of use to the Huntsman. [...] Interesting. When I was a wee lad, every dog I k
CS: Crime-counsellor raped by youth
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > EX-PRISONER RAPED ME DURING AFFAIR, COUNSELLOR TELLS COURT > > 191813 FEB 10 > > By Melvyn Howe, PA News > > A single, middle-aged drug counsellor sobbed today as she told how she was > allegedly raped by a young "gun-toting gangster" she had fallen for in jail. > > Despite having only spent a total of 90 minutes in his company behind bars, > she "stupidly" began an affair with him less than 24 hours after his > release. > > She said she then had sex several more times with 6ft tall Carlon Robinson, > who at 26 was young enough to be her son. > > But the woman, who can only be identified as Miss X for legal reasons, wept > as she told Inner London Crown Court his attitude became increasingly more > "aggressive", during their short affair, with him first demanding ú800 for > a gun and then asking her to smuggle some drugs to one of his friends who > was still inside. > > While she accepted she arranged a loan for the weapon he wanted - but never > actually got around to giving him the money - she drew the line with the > drugs request, explaining: "It was more than my job was worth." > > She told the court that despite her pleas and struggles he raped her on her > own bed. > > She alleged that next morning he behaved as if nothing had happened, before > demanding her car keys. > > "He was shouting at me and I was shouting back. > > "He slapped me around the face, telling me to shut up and that I was his > bitch and should do what I was told to do. > > "I was terrified. I just gave him the keys and said, `Go on, just take the > car. I don't care'." > > Struggling to compose herself, she then claimed: "He said, `If you call the > police I am going to get a gun and shoot you.' > > Miss X, who said she called the police on the advice of friends, told the > jury she never returned to work after her alleged ordeal. > > It had left her "depressed, anxious and frightened", with nightmare ridden > sleep and worried whenever she had to leave the safety of her home. > > Robinson, who was arrested several days later in Brighton, denies one count > of rape on September 19 last year. > > ~ > > Have I got this right? Aiding and abetting him in buying an illegal firearm > wasn't more than her job was worth? Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> The essence of the question is: if a wild predatory animal inflicts >>a certain level of misery upon its prey -- in the process of subduing it, what >>would you deem to be onerous when a human is conducting the same act? > >Oh please - there is a massive difference. You cannot equate a natural kill >by an animal with what is basically a human sport with rules, conventions >and a yearly fixture. You know I firmly believe that a major reason that >people oppose fox hunting, in this country anyway, is because the >supporters try to justify their cause with comments like this. In short you >are treating the people who oppose you like idiots and they fight harder >because of it. --snip-- I'll bite. First, and foremost, the reasons for allotting of licenses is to ensure that the 'pool' of animals that are hunted will not be decimated. Left to their own devices, most of the so-called 'game animals' would face extreme cycles of famine caused by over-population, and then near extinction as their natural predator's populations grew as a result of their herd sizes. The 'game' animals are called such, because of the royalty of yore, who engaged in 'hunting games', whilst the paupers and serfs were usually denied such pleasures, depending instead on the more abundant vermin. The rules you speak of, were devised as a means to ensure that the animals were given a fair chance to escape their predator, who in the modern guise may avail himself to easy transport, roads, and increased efficiency of methods for dispatch. I rather despise the term 'game' animal for several reasons, but mostly because it has been taken advantage of by those whose antipathies would deprive every essence of the natural spirit of humanity. It seems that we have been elevated to the status of demigods, and therefore must pooh-pooh what was formerly done by our near ancestors, if only because it connects us to the reality of our essential selves. And, heaven help us, should we should suddenly realize that we really are some kind of blood spilling predator dependant upon the flesh of other animals for our survival. That people hunt is not to be disparaged, anymore than attacking the proclivities of a wild -- or domesticated predator. Again, as I've stated previously, there are people 'out there' who have an abiding hatred of humans, and would -- if they possessed the power -- seek to decimate every human on the face of the earth, except themselves and some close friends. They see humanity as vermin unto themselves, predating the entire biosphere. Are we unnatural? I think not, that is, unless we seek to deny our essential qualities, and then we seek all manner of unnatural things. It might be noted here that it isn't the hunter that has disrupted the environment, and caused all manner of chaos, but the anti-hunter who, in seeking to prevent a 'perceived' misery, has instead created in the wake of the 'theme' park all manner of misery. It is the artificial expressions of those who can't face the truth of the matter, that have created the largest depredation's. And to continually hide the blunders of stupidity, they hire 'government hunters' to fix the 'occasional problems'. That, Neil, is the real problem. --rest snip-- -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > And this is true not only of foxhunting but of the supporters of any > sport and minority activity when they face criticism. I think that that > stems from a pig-headed refusal to recognise that civilised societies > impose rules of behaviour which can not be disregarded on the basis of > any historical right or tradition. No one is saying that societys rules should be disregarded simply so that a particular tradition can continue. What society should recognise is that it does not, and should not, have the right to control the activities of adults who are not causing any problems for their fellow Humans. It is about society being more tolerant towards things that the majority may not like or approve of. > It does not matter if one is hunting foxes on horseback with hounds or > having a weekly bar-b-que with the smoke and the smell of burnt sausages > filling the neighbours bedrooms. This is not a fair comparison because Fox Hunting does not affect your next door neighbours (or anyone else who does not choose to be associated with it for than matter) whereas a barbecue may do and so is subject to whatever rules society likes to put on it. > Minorities whose behaviour is considered objectionable will eventually > have their "pleasure" curtailed and the right and freedom of choice > simply does not come into the consideration. Well if you think that is acceptable behaviour from a civilised society then I would try to re-evalate the way you look at the World. For society to simply outlaw an activity because it dosent like it is wrong and to be honest rather worrying, what will they ban or who will they persecute next? Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-SA website
From: N J Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > If the Sportsmans Association had any sense they'd get > themselves a domain name ($25 a year?) and their > -- > They have got a domain name, sportsmans-association.org Yes - you have to be fair here - Their domain name is not the problem - it was the physical server where their site was located. They were told it was closing with only a couple of days notice. Easyspace - who ever they are were the culprits. Steve is correct - you basically get what you pay for. The SA have not said why Easyspace chose to remove their site? Anyone know?? Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-march in March
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Neil Francis writes, << But if - say - 70% of the country find it distasteful - does it become reasonable to look at preventing that activity from being engaged in? >> This is a profoundly illiberal attitude, and a reminder of all the stuff we've heard about gun ownership in recent years. It is all the more alarming because it echoes the kind of crudely populist definition of "democracy" which one hears being mouthed by lots of people who should know better, such as the "great & good" types on Any Questions the other day, who it seems would happily impose the most draconian restrictions on the Internet in order, they say, to catch paedophiles. Reminds one of the "war on drugs" and the frighteningly repressive (and expensive) measures taken by governments everywhere in order, they say, to save us from the bogeyman of drugs... The implication of suggesting that our democracy is based upon nothing more than a crude show of hands is that if 70 percent of those polled think shoplifters should be summarily crucified, then we should do it. What a delightfully civilised vision of society. The fact is that people have hunted since the dawn of humanity, it's the most natural thing in the world, and if individuals choose not to hunt - minnows or rhinos, it's all the same - that's their decision but they shouldn't try to coerce others into following their example. Liberty is the most precious thing there is, and one of the nastiest aspects of our time is the disturbing number of people who happily propose radical curtailments of others' freedom. I don't care if 99 percent of the population dislikes fox hunting - something I don't take part in - since the tyranny of a majority is no more acceptable than that of an individual despot. Anthony Harrison Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting venues in New Jersey?
From: "Daryll Brownjohn", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >"I seem to recall reading an article saying that renting handguns >was illegal in New Jersey or something like that"... Ok then... what about Pennsylvania / Philadelphia?? State line not far from where I might be going thx.. Daryll Brownjohn Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Cooperative MP
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Following up on my correspondence with Charles Clarke via my MP, David Prior: Dear Mr. Prior, Further Firearms Legislation Many thanks for forwarding a copy of the letter from Charles Clarke MP. I am sorry that I have been so tardy in replying but as you will see this has not been from want of interest. Unfortunately Mr. Clarke again totally fails to address the question I asked right at the beginning of this correspondence. This was: Ç£Please ask the Home Office Ǫ before instigating further controls could they please provide some sort of evidence that the existing controls are effective.Ç¥ However, his letter contained several points that I would like to comment on and I have spent a lot of time in thinking about them. Ç£The overall crime rate in this country has risen during the same period, and much armed crime will be linked to rises in other areas of crime such as the trade in illegal drugs.Ç¥ I think this point is not logically supportable. Most legislation is directed against the actions of criminals and if those criminals fail to observe the law, crime increases. That is logical. However, the ban on handguns is directed against things and once the ban is in place crime related to those things should drop (if laws against things rather than actions can ever be thought to achieve anything).Logically if the firearms legislation is held to be an anti-crime measure then banning handguns should have some effect on crime. Mr. Clarke admits that it hasn't and it is therefore a failure. Saying that crime has generally increased and therefore gun related crime has increased is logical but it underlines the fact that the legislation banning legally held handguns has been a gross infringement on civil liberties and a considerable waste of public funds. Saying that crime increases generally therefore gun related crime has increased therefore the legislation is successful simply does not hang together. Ç£The Home Office has not generally sought to put forward an estimate for the number of illegal guns in circulation in the United Kingdom.Ç¥ I accept that I was mistaken in this respect. Michael Yardley conducted the study I was referring to on gun crimes reported to the Metropolitan police. If I remember correctly in over 1,000 incidents less than 1% involved a gun that had ever legally been owned. Notwithstanding this does not Mr. Clarke consider it rather pitiful that the Home Office has not sought to put forward an estimate of the number of illegal guns in circulation, particularly as those are the ones that seem to cause nearly all of the problems? Ç£As our controls over firearms are amongst the strongest in the Western world - not the strongest as Mr. Pantling suggests then our rate of firearms homicide should be amongst the lowest in the Western world. This is in fact the case.Ç¥ Ah! We are into splitting hairs here. Very well, I accept that there may be nations were the controls are marginally stronger than here, although with handguns I cannot imagine anything stronger than a complete ban. But let us take two of the examples that Mr. Clarke quotes in his letter. Firstly, in the United States, nearly all types of crime other than murder are lower than in the United Kingdom and they are falling. This does rather shoot down Mr. ClarkeÇÖs theory that one level of crime will reflect itself in another as mentioned above. Also in rural America where guns are most prevalent crime is lowest. In urban America the reverse is true. The recent shooting in Massachusetts occurred in one of the states with the most stringent gun laws. The liberalization of the concealed carry laws in Florida resulted in a decrease in street crime. In Kennesaw, Georgia, it is now mandatory to keep a gun in the house and all crime has decreased. Secondly, in Switzerland we have a country with one of the highest concentrations of private firearms ownership in the World. Following Mr. ClarkeÇÖs logic it should be a hotbed of armed crime. Well all I can tell him is that I have been there and I felt much safer in Basel than I do in London. In fact, depending on the interpretation of the statistics relating to suicide it appears that this most armed nation has a crime rate very comparable with ours. No correlation Mr. Clarke! This theory of more guns more crime, less guns less crime just doesn't hold up. Ç£I am satisfied that our low rates of armed crime by international standards are due in part to our strict controls over firearms. Not only do these make it more difficult for most criminals to obtain guns, but they also reduce the scope for unsuitable characters to obtain firearms with tragic results.Ç¥ Now we come to the real point, does firearms legislation really keep guns out of the hands of criminals? On this point I can quote some statistics that I am sure Mr. Clarke will find it hard to dispute
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > It's the same as the MoD standard for indoor pistol ranges, max. > calibre .455", not sure what the exact energy limit is off the > top of my head. > > Steve. 475 ft/lbs seems familiar. Jonathan Laws 475 ft/l/lbs used to be the muzzle energy limit for indoor fullbore pistol ranges and this was carried over to gallery rifle. Alex -- Okay so what is it because I'm getting confused now. 475 or 1,496? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-population density
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's true in this country (to an extent, depends how big the minority is) but I find it to be less true in most other developed countries. Probably because they have lower population densities so there is more room for people to do what they want. Look at the legal environment in places with higher population densities like Singapore or Japan. Steve. __ You got it bang on the nail, Steve, population density has a lot to do with tolerance, or lack of it. This is where I cannot contribute more, because I have no personal experience of any country with population density higher than UK. So, how are these social problems tackled in Japan and Singapore. How do the minorities protect their interests there when what they do is not approved by the majority? I think that we need to study what happens in similar environment in other countries in order to learn how to survive ourselves. Alex -- I can only comment on the state of the gun laws really: In Singapore you have to be a member of the NRA (or I think a gun club, there are one or two there), and all guns have to be stored by the NRA in the NRA's armoury. The licensing system is similar to here, although it is worth mentioning that pistols are still legal. Hong Kong has a similar system, except that you can keep rifles and shotguns at home and I think single shot .22 pistols. Japan is the worst, their licensing system is a nightmare, you have to go through various exams, psychological evaluation and so on, and that is just to own a rifled air rifle. Shotguns can be legally owned, I think there are about 300,000 licenses on issue (i.e. half as many as here with twice the population). If you want a centrefire rifle you have to be a member of the Japanese NRA, if you want one for hunting then you have to have safely owned and used a shotgun for at least _ten years_. Only a maximum of 500 people can legally own an air pistol at any time (which is why the Japanese airsoft pistols have smoothbore barrels, rifled ones are covered by this law), and only 50 people can own a .22 pistol, and it must be stored at a police station. Apparently only about 30 people actually own a .22 pistol because you have to be able to achieve a minimum score with an air pistol to qualify for the .22 license and it is extremely hard. Of course everything has to be kept locked up, licenses renewed every year, etc., etc. The point that always fascinates me is that even in those places cartridge handguns aren't totally illegal for target shooting like they are here. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-handgun ban "profoundly wrong"
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Find this item online at http://www.yougov.com/news.jsp;jsessionid=iaa4jpglq1?news.id=10012840 By Alec Marsh VISCOUNT Cranborne, a Cabinet Minster in the last Conservative government, has condemned the ban on handguns as "profoundly wrong" and said the Tories should have told the public to "grow up" in the aftermath of the Dunblane killings. In an interview with YouGov the life peer said that the "discredited" Tory government had been swept along under a wave public insanity and hysteria. MPs voted to illegalise 160,000 handguns following the murder of 16 five and six-year-olds and their teacher at school in Dunblane, Perthshire, in 1996. Asked about the ban, Lord Cranborne said: "I think we were wrong. I think we were profoundly wrong and I was part of the Government that did that. "We were swept away on this understandable tide of revulsion of Dunblane and I was as guilty as any of them. "It was very difficult to resist particularly at a time when the Government was so discredited itself." Lord Cranborne, who was sacked as shadow leader of the Lords by William Hague in 1998, continued: "It was virtually impossible. Bit of a shame really because of course the people who really misuse handguns arenÆt the competition shooters. "If you want to use a gun for illegal purposes youÆd be absolutely mad to use a registered one. It's dead easy to get one that isnÆt. "The insanity of public hysteria was demonstrated again... I feel very guilty I didnÆt fight more û I should have fought a lot more than I did. However any government worth its salt û should have used its judgement and told everybody to grow up." The peer, who compares the ban to the proposed ban on foxhunting, was Leader of the Lords from 1994 to 1997 and a junior defence minister before then. He added: "What I do think is debatable is the sheer insanity from a pragmatic practical point of view of Government of criminalising a million people who are instinctively the most law abiding people in the country. In the end that is irresponsible government." Lord Cranborne was Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Ministry of Defence 1992-94 & Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Lords 1994-97 The interview in full: AM: How long do you think the remaining 92 hereditary peers will be keep their seats in the House of Lords? LC: Very interesting question. What happened was that when Hague first became party leader I went to him and said: "We got a plan, we'll tell you what the plan is, if you donÆt like the plan we'd better think of another one." "Oh he said, there's a plan is there? Basically Id better tell you I'm a strong advocate of quite a fundamental reform of their Lordships' house because I Parliament needs rebalancing. [I said:] "And I think that what this government wants is to do a stage one reform of kicking out the hereditaries, be left of a House of entirely nominated peers and leave it at that. There'll be a lot chat about stage two but it will never actually get as far as stage two. But thatÆs not good enough. So what I'd like to do is I'd like to ratchet up the pressure on the Government uttering all sorts of threats û a Battle of the Somme - and by the end of period look as though not only do we mean what we say but that we can do what we say and that by the end of this exercise the Government will come and say can we do a deal on the grounds they won't want their entire legislative programme disrupted. I actually think û and I said to Hague - that if we were to do what we threatened to do it would be thoroughly unconstitutional and I would not be prepared to do it. WeÆre not an elected house and they have been recently elected with an overwhelming majority û we were in 1945 country û and that not the point of their Lordships' house. After a bitàrather sooner than expected, Derry Irvine rang me up and said I think we ought to talk. So I rang up Hague and I said part one of the plan seems to be working, may I negotiate? I got as far as I could by about November, I rang up Hague and say, hereÆs the deal. I said well this is what we got 92 û possibility of a lot more than that.. ex-leaders who were hereditaries would get life peerages, so we asked for 100, settled for 92 but actually probably settled for about 108. He says: "It sounds alright to me, but we are going to need the approval of the Shadow Cabinetà I donÆt feel IÆve got the authority to do it on my own, what do you think?". Well I say, why donÆt we invent a very very great subcommittee of the Shadow Cabinet stuff it full of people. The first meeting was scheduled for one Thursday evening rather late û about 10ish û and I saw Hague that morning it was perfectly plain he had changed his mind but he didnÆt tell me he said he was beginning to have reservations, I would like to see it discussed in committee. So when the committee meets IÆm beginning to have slight alarm bells. SHADOW CABINET - 'SUPPORTED AB
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle power limits
From: "Royall, Nick E", [EMAIL PROTECTED] the limits for an indoor range were 1410fps ans 475ft/lbs Nick -- Presumably 1,496 ft/lb is the outdoor limit. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: Adrian, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Up to now its worked. There have been no more massacres with legal >pistols. Still using that weak argument Neil? There is no way you can prove that the pistol ban has prevented a massacre unless you have solid evidence that without the ban there would have been another massacre with a legally owned pistol. Please leave the silly statements to the GCN. -- Adrian Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle
From: "VinceB", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > It's the same as the MoD standard for indoor pistol ranges, max. > calibre .455", not sure what the exact energy limit is off the > top of my head. 475 ft/lbs seems familiar. Jonathan Laws Thanks Jonathan, I was wondering if the .30 M1 carbine round would qualify. Regards Vince -- It's apparently 1,496 ft/lb. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting venues in Florida?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Hi Folks >I think this is a perennial questionbut here goes. >I am going to Florida early April...the Orlando Area. >Are there any "interesting* shooting venues. I would appreciate a >change from the *Mickey Mouse* attractions I will have to visit. I tried the range on International drive opposite Wet and Wild in August last year and found it looked as though it had closed down. No one was answering the phone so I am not sure if it was closed permanently or just during their off season. There is one on Lower Orange Blossom Trail which was welcoming and good fun. As everyone says, the best source is probably the Yellow pages. Ken -- That was the other one I was thinking of. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values..
From: "pendrous", [EMAIL PROTECTED] By Terry Pendrous, Actually, that silly business about Camo clothing at Bisley during the period of the work up to the hand gun ban, was made to look even more pathetic when the younger generation took up wearing it as a fashion at the time. Anyone remember that? You know, we have got to a pathetic state when one starts worrying about crap like that! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-counsellor raped by youth
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] She prefers to supply a gangster (according to The Times, she knew he was serving 4 years for firearms offences) with money for a __gun__, rather than take drugs to his jail mates !! This an _OFFICIAL_ drug counsellor!!! God help us all. Of course you can see the COMPENSATION claim coming, see the references to "depressed, anxious and frightened", wonder if she will get half a million?? What morals this lady has, "OK here is gun money, go and use it" Tom C Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle power limits
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What I want is the formula so that I can work out if any of my carbine loads exceed it. It would be nice if someone who understood the formula could write it so I could plug it into Excel. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-US Army running out of 9mm
Army running out of bullets By Rowan Scarborough THE WASHINGTON TIMES The U.S. Army is running out of bullets. A memo sent this week by Fort Hood, Texas, the Army installation with the largest population, says soldiers are suffering a worldwide shortage of 9 mm ammunition. The 9 mm Beretta pistol is standard issue for many officers and certain enlisted ratings, such as military police (MPs) and tank crews. The memo, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Times, said range marksmanship training was being canceled except for police and soldiers about to deploy overseas from Fort Hood. The memo is one of the clearest signs to date, Army sources said, that the military needs a quick infusion of cash to reverse a downward trend in combat readiness. "Due to an Army worldwide 9 mm ammo shortage, all Fort Hood 9 mm ranges have been canceled except for 89th MPs and special deployment needs," says the memo circulated Monday among Army III Corps units. "This shortage is expected to last until something this fall. . . . Until further notice no units (active, reserve, National Guard) will get [9 mm bullets] based on their normal forecast except [MPs]." Calling the situation a "critical shortage," the memo states that those units that still have 9 mm shells "should ensure they get maximum training benefit from it. . . . Units should micromanage [9 mm ammo] already in the hands of units." "There's still an option. Personnel in the units that are deploying will be able to fire and train in the 9 mm," said Cecil Green, a spokesman at Fort Hood, home to the 1st Cavalry and 4th Infantry divisions. He declined further comment. Army sources said the bullet shortages are another bad sign for a branch that was stretched thin this decade on global peacekeeping missions. "This is indicative of a lot of other problems," said an Army source who asked not to be named. "We've been robbing Peter to pay Paul for years. What does this tell you? We don't have enough ammo to shoot. They keep demanding we do more with less. The situation is not healthy." Maj. Tom Artis, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon, said the shortage stems from budget shortfalls as opposed to production problems. He said decisions on whether to cancel Beretta firings are up to each base. He said the Army is fixing the shortage by reprogramming budget dollars into ammunition accounts. "The guys who really need the ammunition are getting it," he said. Col. Guy Shields, a spokesman for Army Forces Command in Georgia, said the command has passed the word to the 197,000 troops it oversees that a shortage exists for training rounds and to deal with it unit by unit. An Army officer stationed at a base overseas said personnel have been warned of shortages of another bullet - that for the M16. He said Army regulations call for specified amounts of training ammo to be issued to each soldier. A Senate Armed Services Committee report on this year's defense budget said the Army is short $242 million in its ammunition procurement account. "For the past several years, field commanders have expressed concern regarding the inadequate stocks of ammunition to support their training and war reserve requirements," the committee said. One Army official commented: "I wonder why they can't go down to WalMart and make a local purchase. Last I checked, they had plenty of 9 mm ammo." A box of 9 mm shells at WalMart costs about $7. Congressional sources said yesterday the Army shortages of such a basic combat tool as bullets is evidence that Congress needs to pass a defense bill this spring to supplement the current Pentagon budget. The Army has submitted a $2.9 billion request. The sources say the Bush White House is cool toward additional defense spending this year. But the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who already have sent a supplemental spending request to Congress, are adamant in saying the services need emergency money to shore up readiness accounts for spare parts, fuel, building repairs and ammunition. Some staffers are working to keep the bill no higher than $7 billion. But they fear a rush by lawmakers to add "pork" projects would prompt the White House and congressional leaders to kill the legislation. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
