Re: Irony
On 8/15/14, Joel Rees wrote: > Be careful where you see conspiracy. > Look first in your own heart. PS, I forgot my sig: "Be careful where you fail to see comedy. You heart may be in need of some." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnss_50cmcpsrdcd0deu5ikyru3wf38mf4-_ecdhkues...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On 8/15/14, Joel Rees wrote: > On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:47 AM, AW > wrote: >> On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 >> Joel Rees wrote: >> >> > When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care >> > whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure >> > definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the >> > keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. >> >> Of course you think sideways... >> Step 1. Choose a log to view > > Mixed logs. What then? I think we are meant to create an SQL view then, so we cmd line administrator types can still "grep" the whole sql db with a single command. >> Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. > > Maybe I don't want to limit to a particular time frame, especially > when I'm trying to debug a problem which has been slowly corrupting > the loggin database for I don't know how long. You're right, not possible with SQL. >> Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. > > What columns? Who defined those columns? Why do I have to do a > database design on all the unforeseeable sets of conditions that I > will want to log, many not errors or even warnings, with all the > information I want to log about them, before I can start coding and > debugging the application so that I can find out what I want to log? Perhaps "error code" and "message" would cover all cases? Dont' know that's possible with SQL. But AnyWay, I admit, that might still be more complicated than is worth poking a stick at, when grep works just fine... > And, again, what happens when a watchdog daemon can't get a socket > (heaven forbid a port) to the error logging daemon and wants to log > that fact? Now we're back to log files and we might just as well have > stuck with them in the first place. You should probably have fail over databases, with a watchdog system monitoring th... oh, that's what you're asking? > And if management wants them in a database, dump them to a database > after you can scan through them to get an idea of any specific columns > you want to define other than the free-form text bucket at the end. > But keep the logs in files and generate the database from the files, > otherwise, you're going to be stuck trying to log the fact that you > can't log because your database function is down or not yet up, and > that's going to happen a lot more often than trying to log the fact > that your file system is so corrupt you can't write the logs. Dunno about that. Perhaps a NoSQL database? >> These are all relational searches. > > You can design them, after the fact, as relational searches. And if > your design is good, it will catch a lot of similar searches. But you > still have to write down the queries if you want to use them again, > just like you have to write down the more complex grep queries if you > want to use them again. So we're up to 1-1, text file and sql? >> The fact that you decide as a human does >> not make the data non-relational. > > Actually, the mathematician in me says, yes it does. No > mathematical model truly captures anything from the > real world. Ahh, the truth, the absolute truth. Now we're on solid ground, unshakable ground :) >> It should be very clear that log data are >> strongly relational. Especially, if I might add, just briefly add though, since I don't want to take up too much time here just commenting in any sort of unnecessary sort of way, so I do hope you understand. Whoops, got lost there. Let's try again. Esepcially, if I might add, those binary blobs that systemd caters for. > Only if there is a large text bucket at the end of most records. We can't do a time-sequenced third relation joining errors and words in the error? (Time sequenced so we can still reconstruct the error message of course.) >> They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, Consistent data types, consistent field widths, limited set of data types, non free-form textual data, no repeating fields (alright, this last one probably applies)? >> and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred >> down snippet of data you wish to view. What, like the message reconstruction technique to de-normalise a fully normalized message? > Only after you have had time to go back, analyze a few months or years > of logs, and design a database that fits. and then new software, new systems come along, and the efficient non-free-form-text-bucked data structure changes yet again? >> As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the >> referrer? > > You don't know unless you can see my httpd configuration files, unless > I happen not to have customized the error logs very much. (And, yes, I > sometimes heavily customize the apache logs to emphasize stuff that > needs to be seen in a specific application while debugging a specific Perfect use for normalized tables and reports! You could even run them through colorize I use grep) to add color to your text reports!
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:47 AM, AW wrote: > On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 > Joel Rees wrote: > > > When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care > > whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure > > definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the > > keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. > > Of course you think sideways... > Step 1. Choose a log to view Mixed logs. What then? > Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Maybe I don't want to limit to a particular time frame, especially when I'm trying to debug a problem which has been slowly corrupting the loggin database for I don't know how long. > Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. What columns? Who defined those columns? Why do I have to do a database design on all the unforeseeable sets of conditions that I will want to log, many not errors or even warnings, with all the information I want to log about them, before I can start coding and debugging the application so that I can find out what I want to log? And, again, what happens when a watchdog daemon can't get a socket (heaven forbid a port) to the error logging daemon and wants to log that fact? Now we're back to log files and we might just as well have stuck with them in the first place. And if management wants them in a database, dump them to a database after you can scan through them to get an idea of any specific columns you want to define other than the free-form text bucket at the end. But keep the logs in files and generate the database from the files, otherwise, you're going to be stuck trying to log the fact that you can't log because your database function is down or not yet up, and that's going to happen a lot more often than trying to log the fact that your file system is so corrupt you can't write the logs. > These are all relational searches. You can design them, after the fact, as relational searches. And if your design is good, it will catch a lot of similar searches. But you still have to write down the queries if you want to use them again, just like you have to write down the more complex grep queries if you want to use them again. > The fact that you decide as a human does > not make the data non-relational. Actually, the mathematician in me says, yes it does. No mathematical model truly captures anything from the real world. > It should be very clear that log data are > strongly relational. Only if there is a large text bucket at the end of most records. > They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, > and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data > you > wish to view. Only after you have had time to go back, analyze a few months or years of logs, and design a database that fits. > As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the > referrer? You don't know unless you can see my httpd configuration files, unless I happen not to have customized the error logs very much. (And, yes, I sometimes heavily customize the apache logs to emphasize stuff that needs to be seen in a specific application while debugging a specific problem. Then I change the format again when I'm done, because leaving it that way clutters the logs. And I leave the format sitting in the configuration files in a comment, in case I need to do that again. You would have me design a new database and make the logs discontinuous to do the same thing. > Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? Depends on whether normalization makes them keywords. (See what I said above.) > In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' > statement... Uhm, yeah, the early relational databases were little more than constrained plaintext, numeric indexes written as ASCII text, and searched with awk, sed, and grep. Then they started adding specialty search functions and then they started writing the indexes in binary. Databases are a constrained use of text. Binary indexing and binary blog fields are just optimizations. > except the user must already know what the column headers are, What headers? You don't need headers in text logs. You want a date? You search for a date. Don't seem to be successful finding a date, look at the log and you'll see the dates that are there, and then you know what the grep command should look like. On the other hand, if you need to see some log where you wrote out that the number of pink elephant toy queries seems to be greater than the number of Pooh-Bear towel queriess, and the managers think that is meaningful because it probably means the customers this week have been from a particular neighborhood, and they want to adjust the signs and in-store sales accordingly, what columns in your log database tell you that? And again, what columns do you look at when the whole system dies before it can get up far enough to write to the log database? > as that > informati
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, AW wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 21:16:16 -0400 > Jerry Stuckle wrote: > > > It NEVER > > contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and > > the database is properly normalized). > > See step 1... selecting the table = selecting the log file... > > A multiple table database is precisely the same as a multi-file log directory. > -Sorry - you lose. > > --Andrew > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/20140814214214.ec6ef8f58a4d2bf9240bc...@1024bits.com > -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43iomvqwtsefjrxuwtjjkbrz2a71ubr4mch3+nm0p2yx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On 20140814_2247+0100, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 > Paul E Condon wrote: > > > > > > > Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > > > > It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed > > to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed > > according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to > > literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and > > its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. > > > > For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a > > properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a > > computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under > > its control. > > > > Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or > > download, from a reliable source and install and get working with > > minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management > > thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. > > > > Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very > > large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context > > of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just > > another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of > > the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. > > > > Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein > > the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a > > logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required > > by the data model? > > > > > > I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single > table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are > well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then > SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At > that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. > > It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using > the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, > stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, > emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone > jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' > with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational > one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. > > My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use > LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly > single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is > trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client > directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over > ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it > anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. > > SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form > of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server > (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character > encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text > files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's > the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other > flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more > powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. > > -- > Joe In my view SQL is a query language that can do much more than look up records in a single table. To claim that some init system is superior to some other init system because it has 'SQL logging' is, as Andrew said, silly. Almost none of the power of the language is being used in the init system application. Using the fact of SQL logging as a claim for systemd is bullet point one-up-manship. The data relation in init logging is very wide and un-normalized and needs none of the sophistication of SQL. Of course using SQL makes accessing the data easier than if one doesn't know or understand SQL, but is that a reason for choosing systemd over Upstart, for example, or some other init system whose proponents forgot to list this bullet point in their presentation? Surely not. Mentioning it is, IMHO, a shoddy debating ploy and speaks to the intellectual honesty of whoever uses it. Best regards, -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815021031.ga28...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 21:16:16 -0400 Jerry Stuckle wrote: > It NEVER > contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and > the database is properly normalized). See step 1... selecting the table = selecting the log file... A multiple table database is precisely the same as a multi-file log directory. -Sorry - you lose. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814214214.ec6ef8f58a4d2bf9240bc...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 8:47 PM, AW wrote: > On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 > Joel Rees wrote: > > > When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care > > whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure > > definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the > > keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. > > Of course you think sideways... > Step 1. Choose a log to view > Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. > Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. > > These are all relational searches. The fact that you decide as a human does > not make the data non-relational. It should be very clear that log data are > strongly relational. They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, > and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data > you > wish to view. As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the > referrer? Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? > In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' > statement... > except the user must already know what the column headers are, as that > information is not available as it would be in an sql database... > > --Andrew > > Actually, NONE of these are relational searches. They are only selecting specific data from a single table. You need to study up on what a relational model means. It NEVER contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and the database is properly normalized). A relational model would be something with tables like Customer, Customer-Account, Account, Account-Transaction, Transaction. Then selecting all transactions for a specific account. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ed5f60.20...@attglobal.net
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 6:45 PM, Rusi Mody wrote: > On Friday, August 15, 2014 1:50:02 AM UTC+5:30, Paul E Condon wrote: > >> Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > >> It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed >> to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed >> according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to >> literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and >> its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. > >> For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a >> properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a >> computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under >> its control. > >> Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or >> download, from a reliable source and install and get working with >> minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management >> thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. > >> Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very >> large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context >> of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just >> another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of >> the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. > >> Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein >> the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a >> logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required >> by the data model? > > > How about we backup one step up the etymological path? > > And replace 'relational' by 'structured' [The original name was Structured > Query Language -- shortened to SQL] > > Are you saying logging data is not structured? > > I believe this is not a rhetorical question: it seems to me logs are > somewhat at the borderline of needing the heavy-duty structuring > associated with SQL. > > ACID (like postgres) is a red-herring. Indicated by the existence of > database systems like sqlite -- library/API based, natural mode of > running is single threaded > > It is the LANGUAGE that is STRUCTURED - not the data. SQL was created to deal with relational data, not structured data. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ed5e23.4050...@attglobal.net
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 5:47 PM, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 > Paul E Condon wrote: > >> >> >> Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. >> >> It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed >> to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed >> according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to >> literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and >> its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. >> >> For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a >> properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a >> computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under >> its control. >> >> Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or >> download, from a reliable source and install and get working with >> minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management >> thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. >> >> Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very >> large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context >> of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just >> another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of >> the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. >> >> Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein >> the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a >> logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required >> by the data model? >> >> > > I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single > table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are > well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then > SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At > that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. > > It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using > the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, > stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, > emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone > jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' > with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational > one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. > > My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use > LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly > single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is > trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client > directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over > ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it > anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. > > SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form > of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server > (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character > encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text > files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's > the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other > flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more > powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. > Sure, applications can use SQL Server or other SQL databases. But what if your SQL Server is not running for some reason or another? Maybe a corrupt database prevents it from starting, for instance. What is the kernel to do? And while you can access it with PHP, perl and almost any other language, it's not always so easy to do so. And simple SQL statements are OK - but what if you want to search for messages which contain "abc", "def" and "ghi", in any order? This can easily be accomplished with chained grep's, for instance. But it's not so easy with SQL (and the actual SQL you use may vary depending on the database you are using). Yes, Windows uses SQL for logging. But when was the last time you were able to boot into a Windows command line (in SAFE mode) and look at the log? Maybe never? I do this a LOT on my servers. And yes, you can export from SQL Server - but you may have to go through a lot to import to another SQL database. I have used both SQL and grep for many years. When searching text like logs, I find it much easier to use grep. I can even open the log in vim, search for what I want and the surrounding log entries are right there. You can't do that with one SQL statement. There are people that think SQL is slicker than snot on a doorknob. It's great for what it's designed for (relational data). But it just doesn't work as well as plain text files for things like logs. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, ema
Re: Irony
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care > whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure > definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the > keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. Of course you think sideways... Step 1. Choose a log to view Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. These are all relational searches. The fact that you decide as a human does not make the data non-relational. It should be very clear that log data are strongly relational. They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data you wish to view. As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the referrer? Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' statement... except the user must already know what the column headers are, as that information is not available as it would be in an sql database... --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814204736.bfbd6f88dba61ca919b63...@1024bits.com
Re: Grammatisticality: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On 8/15/14, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:14:09 +0200 > sa...@eng.it wrote: >> Zenaan Harkness writes: >> >> > ChrisBanalGrammatistica, >> >> Grammatistica? Which language does this word belong to? Ancient >> Debianese, possibly pre-Vax era? > > At this point, mightn't it be good to change the subject, just in case > the original poster still wants to hear some more technical > information about poweroff? That would be me :) I guess I do need to be charged with comedijacking my own thread. Sorry about that. And by the way, I haven't yet reproduced the problem (although it was happening regularly), so my next test is to suspend then unsuspend, then try to poweroff from XFCE's gui. I shall report back on the status of that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSSCAD=c52cgig-8ve4a27fekmwzbbj2uwy5ro1otpa...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:05 AM, AW wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 > Paul E Condon wrote: > > > Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) > > Neither. I prefer homemade chocolate chip using 1/2 cup butter and 1/2 cup > Crisco... Just like my grandmother used to make... > > > Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > > > > It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed > > to query (and update) a *relational*database* > > Logging data are 100% relational. In fact, everytime someone uses grep, tail, > head, cut, and awk to search through a log file -- they demonstrate that the > log data are relational. When you think like that, this email is relational. But I can buy that much functionality without bothering with any index tables or other database application overhead. When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. When you're dumping log data to a pure text log file, you don't care whether there's a server or even a functioning SQLite library+subsystem on the other end. If your file system, at least, is functioning, you're log gets recorded. > http://web.mit.edu/11.521/www/lectures/lecture10/lec_data_design.html > and. > http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/lecture-notes/ Wow. You can find entry-level textbooks. Have you ever considered how many bad database designs can be crammed into the relational model? Not saying the relational model is any worse than any other database model, but the mere fact that a design can be made does not mean it is a particularly functional design, nor does it mean that it accurately represents the data, any particular meaning of the data, or any particular use of the data. > A syslog is close to very definition of relational data with the primary key > being the timestamp and/or the "facility" in one large table [not the best > design] --- or better primary key being the timestamp and/or generated uuid > and > the facility being the table... syslog is not a particularly good example of a logging facility. But even within that, you can't seem to see the trees for the forest, if you'll pardon me. (We used to understand that seeing the forest required seeing the trees. These days, the champions of the white paper view of the universe seem to be winning.) > However, as I stated previously, systemd seems fine to me... and the old > sysvinit have sql export already - So that by-the-white-paper managers can get their fix, basically. Exporting it doesn't mean you have to delete the original, but that's beyond the point. > so, obivously lots of people thought and > presumably still think log data is handy in an sql database. Handy to people who want everything in SQL format is fine, after the fact. > http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/rsyslog_pgsql.html > QED. QED what? The problem with OS-level logging that you seem to be missing is that the OS sometimes gets into very undefined states. Plaintext logs can often still be written when the file system is only partially functional, and might even be viewable on a console even with the file system completely bombed. Even with SQLite, you have to have a properly functioning file system, in addition to a properly functioning SQL subsystem of some sort. Not requiring a server does not mean not requiring stable state or the library code to maintain state. (And when you try to reconstruct a database that has been dumping to a bombed file system, what tools do you use? You start with plaintext tools to find the wayward writes. Then you have to use special maintenance-only database tools that never use. So you are probably learning how to use them as you go, when any mistake could cost you the farm.) The fundamental tools you use are plaintext. And if you are an admin worth your pay, you know how to deal with plaintext. Structure is what you give the data after you have the data safely stored away. -- Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, the CPU is just a fancy pen. All is text, flowing freely from the past to the future. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43iogaf7-j1yazy-xhwvxc_y4+pgtmg4jxlmuoz0ypd3...@mail.gmail.com
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Re: Irony
On Friday, August 15, 2014 1:50:02 AM UTC+5:30, Paul E Condon wrote: > Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed > to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed > according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to > literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and > its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. > For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a > properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a > computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under > its control. > Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or > download, from a reliable source and install and get working with > minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management > thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. > Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very > large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context > of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just > another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of > the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. > Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein > the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a > logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required > by the data model? How about we backup one step up the etymological path? And replace 'relational' by 'structured' [The original name was Structured Query Language -- shortened to SQL] Are you saying logging data is not structured? I believe this is not a rhetorical question: it seems to me logs are somewhat at the borderline of needing the heavy-duty structuring associated with SQL. ACID (like postgres) is a red-herring. Indicated by the existence of database systems like sqlite -- library/API based, natural mode of running is single threaded -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2aa8a115-1861-4459-90e4-b5b477bcc...@googlegroups.com
Re: Wireless problems - cannot connect zd1211rw
On Thursday 14 August 2014 22:21:06 Brian wrote: > On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 20:40:24 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: > > I have a USB wireless card that is a zd1211rw. It does not seem to > > function. > > have you installed zd1211-firmware? Thanks, Brian. :-) I can't test it now, but I haven't, so that is almost certainly it!! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408142341.36576.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon wrote: > > > Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > > It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed > to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed > according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to > literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and > its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. > > For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a > properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a > computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under > its control. > > Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or > download, from a reliable source and install and get working with > minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management > thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. > > Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very > large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context > of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just > another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of > the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. > > Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein > the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a > logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required > by the data model? > > I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814224738.27db9...@jretrading.com
Re: Wireless problems - cannot connect zd1211rw
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 20:40:24 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: > I have a USB wireless card that is a zd1211rw. It does not seem to function. have you installed zd1211-firmware? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014222000.8ff4ec56c...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon wrote: > Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) Neither. I prefer homemade chocolate chip using 1/2 cup butter and 1/2 cup Crisco... Just like my grandmother used to make... > Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. > > It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed > to query (and update) a *relational*database* Logging data are 100% relational. In fact, everytime someone uses grep, tail, head, cut, and awk to search through a log file -- they demonstrate that the log data are relational. http://web.mit.edu/11.521/www/lectures/lecture10/lec_data_design.html and. http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/lecture-notes/ A syslog is close to very definition of relational data with the primary key being the timestamp and/or the "facility" in one large table [not the best design] --- or better primary key being the timestamp and/or generated uuid and the facility being the table... However, as I stated previously, systemd seems fine to me... and the old sysvinit have sql export already - so, obivously lots of people thought and presumably still think log data is handy in an sql database. http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/rsyslog_pgsql.html QED. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814170555.03d4fb153dbdeba21ffa8...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On 20140809_1647-0400, AW wrote: > On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: > > > > 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. > > > > 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) > > > > 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy > > > > Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. > > > > Sometimes, you just have to laugh. > > > > SteveT > > A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of > anything is nearly impossible. > > There remains only a few holdouts from the "major" distributions: Gentoo and > Slackware. So, give 'em a go... > > However, I've spent a significant time over the last few days relearning much > of what I thought I knew about rsyslog, what I knew I didn't know about > systemd, and musing about what the future may hold... And I gotta say, I might > have agreed with you several months ago -- but I no longer do... > > Systemd is going to take over, because it's - well - better than what existed > in the past. And that's also what open source is about -- a meritocracy. > > I also learned that rsyslog, syslog-ng and company have had sql logging > capability all along... silly me! I should just learn to look more thoroughly > at what I have in front of me... and, I'm sure, if you take a good honest look > at the whole of systemd and what the team is attempting, you'll come over to > the dark-side as well... BTW, we have cookies. > > --Andrew Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814201428.ga27...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Wireless problems - cannot connect zd1211rw
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 20:40:24 +0100 Lisi Reisz wrote: > I have a USB wireless card that is a zd1211rw. It does not seem > to function. From what you sent, I'd say it's fully functional; you just have to add a wireless connection in NM (U must know at least the wifi network's name and the password). Having a working DHCP server on your network helps ;) (U can still configure your card with fixed parms, though). -- What are you going to do today? <Éric> Nothing. You already did that yesterday! <Éric> Yep, but I'm not finished yet. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Wireless problems - cannot connect zd1211rw
I have a USB wireless card that is a zd1211rw. It does not seem to function. I installed wicd, which said that it could find no wireless networks, then remembered that this system appears to have a functioning Network Manager (I didn't know that there was such a thing!) and hastily uninstalled wicd. Help! What do I do?? I have not much experience of wireless, none of having a problem when the relevant module is loaded! Some hopefullty relevant information: From hwinfo: 62: None 00.0: 1070a WLAN [Created at net.124] Unique ID: AYEt.QXn1l67RSa1 Parent ID: VBUu.9MbtL3lij8A SysFS ID: /class/net/wlan0 SysFS Device Link: /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.5/1-1.5:1.0 Hardware Class: network interface Model: "WLAN network interface" Driver: "zd1211rw" Driver Modules: "zd1211rw" Device File: wlan0 HW Address: 00:1a:ee:00:b3:e1 Link detected: no Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown Attached to: #42 (WLAN controller) But: root@Tux-II:/home/lisi# iwconfig eth0 no wireless extensions. eth1 no wireless extensions. lono wireless extensions. wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:off/any Mode:Managed Access Point: Not-Associated Tx-Power=off Retry short limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off Encryption key:off Power Management:on root@Tux-II:/home/lisi# lisi@Tux-II:~$ lsmod | grep zd1211rw zd1211rw 55918 0 mac80211 492899 1 zd1211rw cfg80211 440878 2 mac80211,zd1211rw usbcore 187016 8 usb_storage,ohci_hcd,ohci_pci,ehci_hcd,ehci_pci,usbhid,zd1211rw,xhci_hcd lisi@Tux-II:~$ Result of lsmod: ro62: None 00.0: 1070a WLAN [Created at net.124] Unique ID: AYEt.QXn1l67RSa1 Parent ID: VBUu.9MbtL3lij8A SysFS ID: /class/net/wlan0 SysFS Device Link: /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.5/1-1.5:1.0 Hardware Class: network interface Model: "WLAN network interface" Driver: "zd1211rw" Driver Modules: "zd1211rw" Device File: wlan0 HW Address: 00:1a:ee:00:b3:e1 Link detected: no Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown Attached to: #42 (WLAN controller) Many thanks, Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408142040.24845.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Using a second monitor
On 08/14/2014 01:11 PM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote: I use a second monitor on my old Dell Inspiron, and have 3 monitors on my main desktop. Might as well use the last video out to use four. Works a charm with nVidia. I turned off the onboard video in the bios, and installed two PCIe nVidia cards that are identical, and four identical monitors. I have had almost zero luck running wine like that unless I turn the other monitors (besides 0) off. I wiped wine off and I scarcely miss it. Ric -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ed0905.1010...@gmail.com
Grammatisticality: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:14:09 +0200 sa...@eng.it wrote: > Zenaan Harkness writes: > > > ChrisBanalGrammatistica, > > Grammatistica? Which language does this word belong to? Ancient > Debianese, possibly pre-Vax era? > At this point, mightn't it be good to change the subject, just in case the original poster still wants to hear some more technical information about poweroff? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814133258.72487...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:10:02 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 14.08.2014 16:02, schrieb Rusi Mody: > > On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:40:03 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: > >> Am 14.08.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Rusi Mody: > >>> Aug 14 08:13:15 debian64 pppd[594]: Couldn't open the /dev/ppp device: No > >>> such file or directory > >> Since you don't have the /dev/ppp device, I assume you are not using > >> udev 208-7? > >> Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? > > Thanks Michael > > Just ran an aptitude update. > > After that: > > udev is at 208-6 which is the latest I see > If you are using sysvinit as PID 1, upgrade udev to 208-7 (currently > available from unstable) > > systemd is at 204-8 upgradable to 208-6 > If you are using systemd as PID 1, you should avoid mixing udev 208 with > systemd 204 and always upgrade both [1]. > I'd suggest you install systemd-sysv (which will uninstall > sysvinit-core) which will switch your default init to systemd. > You will still have a fallback /lib/sysvini/init as long as the sysvinit > package is installed and which you can use to boot the system in case > the boot fails with systemd. > [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=75#35 systemd is working (with handwritten grub line) Networking is back to automatically working I'll wait a bit before full switchover [Need to check printer etc Its often a source of trouble because Canon drivers are not the debian supplied ones ] Thanks again! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/25d2d1a3-fa23-4cc3-9478-f69be11f6...@googlegroups.com
Re: Using a second monitor
I use a second monitor on my old Dell Inspiron, and have 3 monitors on my main desktop. Both have nVidia hardware, so I load up the nvidia-settings package and find I can configure the monitors as I like. I generally like to extend the desktop, so that each monitor shows different stuff. That means that on my main desktop machine, my workspaces are 5760 x 1080 pixels, and using workspace-switcher, I have 4 workspaces. The OP should check what hardware runs the monitors. There may be a good solution for you. On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote: > I use a second monitor on my old Dell Inspiron, and have 3 monitors on my > main desktop. > > Both have nVidia hardware, so I load up the nvidia-settings package and > find I can configure the monitors as I like. I generally like to extend > the desktop, so that each monitor shows different stuff. That means that > on my main desktop machine, my workspaces are 5760 x 1080 pixels, and using > workspace-switcher, I have 4 workspaces. > > The OP should check what hardware runs the monitors. There may be a good > solution for you. > > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Bret Busby wrote: > >> On 14/08/2014, Brian wrote: >> >> >> >> > Argumentum ab auctoritate. :) >> > >> >> Ah; does that mean that the stomach muscles of the argument, cause it >> to autorotate? >> >> -- >> Bret Busby >> Armadale >> West Australia >> .. >> >> "So once you do know what the question actually is, >> you'll know what the answer means." >> - Deep Thought, >> Chapter 28 of Book 1 of >> "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: >> A Trilogy In Four Parts", >> written by Douglas Adams, >> published by Pan Books, 1992 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org >> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact >> listmas...@lists.debian.org >> Archive: >> https://lists.debian.org/CACX6j8MnTOpk_FdsyNFqUfPqWbRuVHWLMc1tfMr6Q8=ur2q...@mail.gmail.com >> >> > > > -- > Kevin O'Gorman > > programmer, n. an organism that transmutes caffeine into software. > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > -- Kevin O'Gorman programmer, n. an organism that transmutes caffeine into software. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Re: Using a second monitor
On 14/08/2014, Brian wrote: > Argumentum ab auctoritate. :) > Ah; does that mean that the stomach muscles of the argument, cause it to autorotate? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CACX6j8MnTOpk_FdsyNFqUfPqWbRuVHWLMc1tfMr6Q8=ur2q...@mail.gmail.com
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:40:03 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 14.08.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Rusi Mody: > > Aug 14 08:13:15 debian64 pppd[594]: Couldn't open the /dev/ppp device: No > > such file or directory > Since you don't have the /dev/ppp device, I assume you are not using > udev 208-7? > Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? Ok after dist-upgrade, box is at systemd 208-6 udev 208-6 libpam-systemd removed sysvinit, sysvinit-core, sysvinit-utils installed all at 2.88dsf-53.3 systemd-shim at 6-3 All show as latest. Does this look ok? I'll be checking if there is any improvement with booting with systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/e46f71d5-4ff2-49d4-be9c-2a57dfd77...@googlegroups.com
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
Am 14.08.2014 16:02, schrieb Rusi Mody: > On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:40:03 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: >> Am 14.08.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Rusi Mody: >>> Aug 14 08:13:15 debian64 pppd[594]: Couldn't open the /dev/ppp device: No >>> such file or directory > >> Since you don't have the /dev/ppp device, I assume you are not using >> udev 208-7? > >> Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? > > > Thanks Michael > > Just ran an aptitude update. > > After that: > > udev is at 208-6 which is the latest I see If you are using sysvinit as PID 1, upgrade udev to 208-7 (currently available from unstable) > systemd is at 204-8 upgradable to 208-6 If you are using systemd as PID 1, you should avoid mixing udev 208 with systemd 204 and always upgrade both [1]. I'd suggest you install systemd-sysv (which will uninstall sysvinit-core) which will switch your default init to systemd. You will still have a fallback /lib/sysvini/init as long as the sysvinit package is installed and which you can use to boot the system in case the boot fails with systemd. [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=75#35 -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 9:10:02 PM UTC+5:30, Tom H wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: > > To add to my earlier report: > > I managed to remove graphviz and its associated libraries. > > So that now aptitude dist-upgrade gives me only 1 'issue' : > > The following packages have unmet dependencies: > > systemd-sysv : Conflicts: sysvinit-core but 2.88dsf-53.3 is to be > > installed. > > The following actions will resolve these dependencies: > > Remove the following packages: > > 1) sysvinit-core > You can either accept to remove sysvinit-core and run with systemd > only or install systemd-shim and you won't be prompted to install > systemd-sysv - and you'll be able to boot with sysvinit by default or > systemd if you add "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" to the kernel cmdline. > (the archives have this repeated a number of times!) systemd-shim is currently installed Running with init=/bin/systemd makes networking stop working And /bin/systemd is softlinked to /lib/systemd/systemd so I guess that is a non-difference -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/efb5bddb-7a9b-43b1-b866-4074c70fb...@googlegroups.com
Re: Using a second monitor
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 18:04:55 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > > We have come full circle. Which one of us goes to jail and does not > > collect 200 GBP? :) > > May I have the 200 GBP? There's a LMS Garrat Model by Heljan at 199GBP... Of course! I am easily persuaded by an argument from desire. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014172900.e3d4786b3...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On 2014-08-14, Iain M Conochie wrote: > Yet this is exactly what my 2 year old car does now. I halt at the > lights and the engine powers off. Is this a bug? Depends. > Given enough usage, a bug can become a feature. Some clever folks turn bugs into features, I reckon: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/07/23/stop-start-engines-fuel-savings-aaa/13053447/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnlupnu3.2c0.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 08/14/2014 10:35 AM, Tom H wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Paul E Condon > wrote: > >> In English, both 'stop job' and 'stopped job' are an adjective >> modifying a noun. The noun in both cases is 'job'. 'stop job' is a >> noun phrase expressing a type of job, and must be some kind of >> geeky usage. OTOH, the noun phrase 'stopped job' is a job that is >> not progressing, or not running. But in this context, 'job' must >> itself have a geeky, technical jargon meaning. > > I don't understand why you've got a bee under your bonnet because of > the "stop job" phrase! > > "Stop" in "stop job" isn't an adjective, it's a noun (or an > attributive noun) just like "office" in "office chair." Technically speaking, in "office chair", the word "office" is an adjective. Most words in English can serve as multiple different parts of speech, depending on context. Nouns can be verbed, verbs can be nouned, and - as we see here - nouns can be adjectivized, trivially. That said, yes, a "stop job" is a job intended to stop something. (Think of the phrase "a stop-job order", that is, an order to stop a job that otherwise would go forward.) The phrase is still non-obvious at a glance to the uninitiated - I had trouble figuring out that it wasn't a transcription error for "stopped job", and then figuring out what it did mean, myself - but it is a reasonable one to choose from the perspective of someone who does know what's being talked about. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJT7NuqAAoJEASpNY00KDJr9PYP/0j116FU93DILPVuF8i7rJDr tHptGTGBFJt7rtpw//igCRYeNrZTgAZ0XiZXGZKDJAWKjJQ0/40/OPeB6yS1ptbW 7xfo9w4vtmqf05qi2JXxuin54cL91iYVhuBCbc7lSIaC3q4+wvJZoJThKRBs1e0x ioRCecz+641ZFkcSv5WeGP5uYHVC/AI2t7FBAHyIdpyTEYn43bHfDhqNP0iMCCi8 15InRQolVuoMzzyCb8JHnMuZBpWgk3LEBjP4qB2rNuy57ZgHAuun8GaKXfCJ1weW KCXtA+FxXQ24yXw13ZD9HB3pSTbI/y+o7Cqr5hLENYlvH5EW+jTJC6PJrC2IN3DK a1kvWLi8I/WEnexy14w2RaJQaU9rk1fwbijHGJ/sgRx83Jcs2iUaJY4+b2JpcAPC WxtXQ0Q7Yu1siMAS/U7xzWYUXRODFRGECSAXJywh7ZV0znabKhukgJq9FmmJLvq2 jFEwH1nu/qkHgAI6pXqNNjSm7Z8rTMkj8nRVBjSR7V5ftbisazjwV27Eja6tPE/I cml7sJl5RV84hs1M1GzVsYoTFL8Lqt4NpqFBzdCdvZTavz9oDnWU20HpmJNJNpMI bdxSfFFRR8fiE10gWEP0ta6NoIJBX4ZglCLg6IlPYr6RW+sf7xqZjrasEpAx/xjh IJ/5vUmEYDWrW/FKim6J =WQVw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ecdbab.3030...@fastmail.fm
Re: Using a second monitor
Brian writes: > On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 17:29:22 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > > > Brian writes: > > > *Your* use of .xinitrc is not the issue. Your advice, without > > > qualification. that users of Debian follow in your footsteps is. > > > The argument is set out in the earlier linked post. > > > > Can't check right now, but if I recall it well I cited both .xinitrc > > and .xsession, whichever one uses... > > It is quoted in > > > https://lists.debian.org/14082014114201.39912d455...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk Thanks. My fault, I thought that .xession was bound to the use of a session manager. > We have come full circle. Which one of us goes to jail and does not > collect 200 GBP? :) May I have the 200 GBP? There's a LMS Garrat Model by Heljan at 199GBP... -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.56871.62946.381...@mail.eng.it
Re: Using a second monitor
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 17:29:22 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > Brian writes: > > *Your* use of .xinitrc is not the issue. Your advice, without > > qualification. that users of Debian follow in your footsteps is. > > The argument is set out in the earlier linked post. > > Can't check right now, but if I recall it well I cited both .xinitrc > and .xsession, whichever one uses... It is quoted in https://lists.debian.org/14082014114201.39912d455...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk We have come full circle. Which one of us goes to jail and does not collect 200 GBP? :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014164835.7e9da9e98...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On 12/08/14 22:23, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 12 August 2014 17:53:19 Martin Steigerwald wrote: But if the english meaning of the words give exact this difference, so well. In my understanding there never was much of a difference between halt and poweroff. I'm not quite clear what you are saying, but if you are saying that there is not give much difference in the English meaning of the words poweroff and halt, then I must take issue with you. Halt simply means stop. Poweroff means turn the power off. A big difference in the words. Think of a car at traffic lights. You stop it: halt it. You do not power off, i.e. turn the engine off. (Unless you accidentally stall it!) Yet this is exactly what my 2 year old car does now. I halt at the lights and the engine powers off. Is this a bug? Given enough usage, a bug can become a feature. Iain Lisi
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: > > To add to my earlier report: > > I managed to remove graphviz and its associated libraries. > > So that now aptitude dist-upgrade gives me only 1 'issue' : > > The following packages have unmet dependencies: > systemd-sysv : Conflicts: sysvinit-core but 2.88dsf-53.3 is to be installed. > The following actions will resolve these dependencies: > > Remove the following packages: > 1) sysvinit-core You can either accept to remove sysvinit-core and run with systemd only or install systemd-shim and you won't be prompted to install systemd-sysv - and you'll be able to boot with sysvinit by default or systemd if you add "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" to the kernel cmdline. (the archives have this repeated a number of times!) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SwotZ5w0JMb7aA2iU=3zickvooeakc-vacb_gis8l3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: New 64-bit Install: Wine
- Original Message - > From: "David Baron" > > On Tuesday 12 August 2014 10:36:51 Rob Owens wrote: > > - Original Message - > > > > > From: "David Baron" > > > > > > On Tuesday 12 August 2014 10:10:58 Rob Owens wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > > > > > > > > From: "David Baron" > > > > > > > > > > I have no 64-bit .exe's. The few apps I need to run are all fairly > > > > > old. > > > > > Seems to be no way to run them. > > > > > > > > > > Wine64 complains about the .exe format. Placing win32:i386 on top of > > > > > all > > > > > this complains that the .wine is for a 64bit installation to wine32 > > > > > will > > > > > not work. Even if there is no such folder (I purged everything for > > > > > latest > > > > > try). > > > > > > > > This is complaining about ~/.wine being a 64bit installation, at least > > > > that's what it did for me. I moved my existing ~/.wine to ~/.wine.bak > > > > and > > > > was able to run 'wine Firefox\ Setup\ 31.0.exe' successfully. > > > > > > What wine packages do you have installed? > > > > wine > > wine64 > > wine32:i386 > > Tried that. I do not know about the firefox setup but no .exe's I had around > would take. I also go rid of the ~/.wine. Wine-cfg also barked. > Just to be sure you have a clean environment, you might want to try creating a new user and try it as that user. Otherwise, I don't know what the problem is. I'm running an up to date Jessie, by the way. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/302860793.44622303.1408030338940.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: Using a second monitor
Brian writes: > *Your* use of .xinitrc is not the issue. Your advice, without > qualification. that users of Debian follow in your footsteps is. > The argument is set out in the earlier linked post. Can't check right now, but if I recall it well I cited both .xinitrc and .xsession, whichever one uses... -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.54738.936005.675...@mail.eng.it
Re: Using a second monitor
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 17:00:08 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > Brian writes: > > On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 14:22:25 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > > > > > Brian writes: > > > > > > > > Is there a reason to prefer .xinitrc over .xsession with startx? > > > > > > First of all, I used .xinitrc when Linux kernel version was below 0, > > > my environment is more or less the same I used on the Sun boxes when I > > > was a stuudent - including rainbow titlebar for WindowMaker :). > > > > Argumentum ad antiquitatem. :) > > Reductio ad antiquitatem. :) (from Reductio ad Hitlerum). > > BTW, it works for the equipment in the NFL. Or would you like to argue > with some veteran linebacker :) :) ? Argumentum ab auctoritate. :) > > > Then I read the letter from Mr. Prolux, gor a look to the scripts in > > > /etc/X11/Xsession.d and now I state explicitly that I do not need X > > > session management or, better, I do not want it. > > > > Fine. But, without explanation, personal use is probably not suitable > > Agreed that people without technical skill have to use what a technician > prepared for them. > > But I will stop using a GNU/Linux if it prevents me from using it the > way *I* want, since I am supposed to know what I do :). > > I suppose that Debian will never violate Property[0] of the Free > Software. *Your* use of .xinitrc is not the issue. Your advice, without qualification. that users of Debian follow in your footsteps is. The argument is set out in the earlier linked post. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014161313.4a4371ccb...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Problem with Debian 6 LTS and vlc
On Wed, 8/13/14, Bret Busby wrote: Subject: Problem with Debian 6 LTS and vlc To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 11:46 PM I have just tried to install vlc on this laptop. At first attempt, it kept prompting for the "disc number...", so I checked the /etc/apt/sources.list file, and found that it was not set up for LTS. So, I updated the /etc/apt/sources.list file, as (I believe) shown on the relevant wiki web page, and ran apt-get update and then apt-get upgrade, and that apparently included removal of about 3.6MB of something (it did not say what would be removed). But, now I can not install vlc. I get, in the error box (the error classification/description, can not be copied and pasted) " vlc: Depends: vlc-nox but it is not going to be installed Depends: libfribidi0 (>=0.19.2) but it is not installable Depends: libsdl-image1.2 (>=1.2.10) but it is not installable Depends: libxcb-keysyms1 (>=0.3.6) but it is not installable Recommends: vlc-plugin-notify but it is not going to be installed Recommends: vlc-plugin-pulse but it is not going to be installed " Is vlc no longer installable, on Debian 6? --- I have vlc running on squeeze LTS. Looks like it comes from Debian multimedia packages maintainers so you'll likely have to add the http://www.deb-multimedia.org oldstable main repo to your sources list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1408029776.76194.yahoomailba...@web163404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Re: Using a second monitor
Brian writes: > On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 14:22:25 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > > > Brian writes: > > > > > > Is there a reason to prefer .xinitrc over .xsession with startx? > > > > First of all, I used .xinitrc when Linux kernel version was below 0, > > my environment is more or less the same I used on the Sun boxes when I > > was a stuudent - including rainbow titlebar for WindowMaker :). > > Argumentum ad antiquitatem. :) Reductio ad antiquitatem. :) (from Reductio ad Hitlerum). BTW, it works for the equipment in the NFL. Or would you like to argue with some veteran linebacker :) :) ? > > Then I read the letter from Mr. Prolux, gor a look to the scripts in > > /etc/X11/Xsession.d and now I state explicitly that I do not need X > > session management or, better, I do not want it. > > Fine. But, without explanation, personal use is probably not suitable Agreed that people without technical skill have to use what a technician prepared for them. But I will stop using a GNU/Linux if it prevents me from using it the way *I* want, since I am supposed to know what I do :). I suppose that Debian will never violate Property[0] of the Free Software. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.52984.723410.810...@mail.eng.it
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 8:00:03 PM UTC+5:30, Rusi Mody wrote: > On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:40:03 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: > > Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? > > > Thanks Michael To add to my earlier report: I managed to remove graphviz and its associated libraries. So that now aptitude dist-upgrade gives me only 1 'issue' : The following packages have unmet dependencies: systemd-sysv : Conflicts: sysvinit-core but 2.88dsf-53.3 is to be installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies: Remove the following packages: 1) sysvinit-core -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/f5ced6dd-b9af-4095-8bd9-34177ce73...@googlegroups.com
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Paul E Condon wrote: > > In English, both 'stop job' and 'stopped job' are an adjective > modifying a noun. The noun in both cases is 'job'. 'stop job' is a > noun phrase expressing a type of job, and must be some kind of geeky > usage. OTOH, the noun phrase 'stopped job' is a job that is not > progressing, or not running. But in this context, 'job' must itself > have a geeky, technical jargon meaning. I don't understand why you've got a bee under your bonnet because of the "stop job" phrase! "Stop" in "stop job" isn't an adjective, it's a noun (or an attributive noun) just like "office" in "office chair." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SxjM8=tX7qBip5qtVvWnVu5vdfWvTZ9zfTqXkUs=ym...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Using a second monitor
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 14:22:25 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > Brian writes: > > > > Is there a reason to prefer .xinitrc over .xsession with startx? > > First of all, I used .xinitrc when Linux kernel version was below 0, > my environment is more or less the same I used on the Sun boxes when I > was a stuudent - including rainbow titlebar for WindowMaker :). Argumentum ad antiquitatem. :) > Then I read the letter from Mr. Prolux, gor a look to the scripts in > /etc/X11/Xsession.d and now I state explicitly that I do not need X > session management or, better, I do not want it. Fine. But, without explanation, personal use is probably not suitable for generalised advice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014151804.4741c9c7e...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
Zenaan Harkness writes: > ChrisBanalGrammatistica, Grammatistica? Which language does this word belong to? Ancient Debianese, possibly pre-Vax era? -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.50225.571935.947...@mail.eng.it
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:40:03 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 14.08.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Rusi Mody: > > Aug 14 08:13:15 debian64 pppd[594]: Couldn't open the /dev/ppp device: No > > such file or directory > Since you don't have the /dev/ppp device, I assume you are not using > udev 208-7? > Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? Thanks Michael Just ran an aptitude update. After that: udev is at 208-6 which is the latest I see systemd is at 204-8 upgradable to 208-6 Trying to upgrade systemd gives me: colord will be removed gnome-sushi will be removed gvfs will be removed gvfs-backends will be removed gvfs-daemons will be removed libpam-systemd will be removed nautilus will be removed packagekit will be removed packagekit-tools will be removed policykit-1 will be removed policykit-1-gnome will be removed udisks2 will be removed libsystemd-daemon0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-journal0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-journal0:i386 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-login0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 nautilus-data (version 3.8.2-3) will be upgraded to version 3.12.2-1 systemd (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 Some other things which I looked at: Trying to upgrade libpam-systemd gives me sysvinit-core will be removed libpam-systemd (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-daemon0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-journal0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-journal0:i386 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 libsystemd-login0 (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 systemd (version 204-8) will be upgraded to version 208-6 systemd-sysv (version 208-6) will be installed sysvinit is at 2.88dsf-53.2 upgradable to 2.88dsf-53.3 Trying to upgrade sysvinit gives: sysvinit (version 2.88dsf-53.2) will be upgraded to version 2.88dsf-53.3 init (version 1.20) will be installed which seems the least drastic so far! I find that on trying aptitude dist-upgrade I get a large load of installs/upgrades and these removes: Remove the following packages: 1) graphviz 2) rsyslog 3) sysvinit-core Keep the following packages at their current version: 4) libgvc6 [Not Installed] 5) liblognorm1 [Not Installed] So I try to remove graphviz and related libs but I get E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Unable to correct dependencies E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Unable to correct dependencies E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages. E: Unable to correct dependencies E: Unable to lock the download directory So I am going to try to remove graphviz and its libraries one piece at a time... Meanwhile if you have any further advice... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ed2f8f3e-5d91-4524-a2be-1e70a8028...@googlegroups.com
Re: default layout for web server (jessie)
On Aug 14, 2014, at 6:56 AM, AW wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:42:12 -0400 > John Bleichert wrote: > >> Apache on Debian > > Jessie = Apache 2.4 > Wheezy = Apache 2.2 > > Apache 2.4 is very different than 2.2... Many things have changed including > variable names, SSL cert configuration, and many others... this is not a > Debian > thing. > > —Andrew True story, and thanks for the clarification. I have not been able to move to 2.4 yet due to the lack of a working perl cgi rig, but 2.2 is fine, hence sticking with wheezy. -- John Bleichert -syb...@earthlink.net The heat from below can burn your eyes out! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5d970cf5-254f-40ec-9606-6abd517f5...@earthlink.net
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On 8/14/14, Darac Marjal wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:03:31PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >> On 8/14/14, Paul E Condon wrote: >> > I should stop. I really have very little firm knowledge of systemd, >> > just opinions that make sense to me. (tm) >> >> That's "TM" for YOU son! It's formal english thank you very much. and >> "(tm)" is a very sloppy rendition!! I don't know that we can tolerate >> this level of slack any more... >> >> Chris Bannista, I formally disignate you bro (that's the correct >> speling, since he Nuu Zoolander) as the Grammatistica Commissioner. >> And ChrisB, I now formally report Paul's sloppy, sloppy instance of >> (non-!)capitalization for your formal punishment. >> >> Thanks and have a -great- day (TM <<-- note the capitals), > > To clarify further, TM is as “sloppy” a shortcut as (tm). The > correct rendering should be ™; that is: U+2122, “TRADE MARK SIGN”. ChrisBanalGrammatistica, I hereby formally duly readily specifically unequivocally report myself for sloppiness, or signing and speling and grammar! Intransigence shall -not- be tolerated, Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnssfg+wpoh-yntryiox7toaurca6wudj4rpczwtcyko...@mail.gmail.com
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:03:31PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 8/14/14, Paul E Condon wrote: > > I should stop. I really have very little firm knowledge of systemd, > > just opinions that make sense to me. (tm) > > That's "TM" for YOU son! It's formal english thank you very much. and > "(tm)" is a very sloppy rendition!! I don't know that we can tolerate > this level of slack any more... > > Chris Bannista, I formally disignate you bro (that's the correct > speling, since he Nuu Zoolander) as the Grammatistica Commissioner. > And ChrisB, I now formally report Paul's sloppy, sloppy instance of > (non-!)capitalization for your formal punishment. > > Thanks and have a -great- day (TM <<-- note the capitals), To clarify further, TM is as “sloppy” a shortcut as (tm). The correct rendering should be ™; that is: U+2122, “TRADE MARK SIGN”. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814124108.ga11...@darac.org.uk
Re: Using a second monitor
Brian writes: > On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 09:08:29 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: > > [A nice xrandr howto snipped] > > > One last thing. Since you do not want to issue this command over and > > over again, you can place it into the .xsession file (if you use > > xdm/gdm/kdm) or .xinitrc file if you log on in a text console and then > > manually run the startx program. > > Is there a reason to prefer .xinitrc over .xsession with startx? First of all, I used .xinitrc when Linux kernel version was below 0, my environment is more or less the same I used on the Sun boxes when I was a stuudent - including rainbow titlebar for WindowMaker :). Then I read the letter from Mr. Prolux, gor a look to the scripts in /etc/X11/Xsession.d and now I state explicitly that I do not need X session management or, better, I do not want it. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.43521.104831.167...@mail.eng.it
Re: systemd fails to poweroff - "A stop job is running for Session 2 of user $USER"
On 8/14/14, Paul E Condon wrote: > I should stop. I really have very little firm knowledge of systemd, > just opinions that make sense to me. (tm) That's "TM" for YOU son! It's formal english thank you very much. and "(tm)" is a very sloppy rendition!! I don't know that we can tolerate this level of slack any more... Chris Bannista, I formally disignate you bro (that's the correct speling, since he Nuu Zoolander) as the Grammatistica Commissioner. And ChrisB, I now formally report Paul's sloppy, sloppy instance of (non-!)capitalization for your formal punishment. Thanks and have a -great- day (TM <<-- note the capitals), Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnssl47klfj1s1f__avzejprmwyahdokx5escu71ayjh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: par2
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:44:16 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > this is not a situation where we are worried about > attackers Crypto is crypto... and md5, sha1, sha256 are cryptographic hashes. And a cryptographic hash is only as good as its slowness in reverse computation and its uniqueness [collision-lessness] for a given data set... --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814070454.3ed47f58bd45aed9aa3f4...@1024bits.com
Re: par2
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:18:21 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > Did you mean 3xiTB, by any chance? There will be blood... err.. typos. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814070159.206868a5053ad330f9708...@1024bits.com
Re: default layout for web server (jessie)
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:42:12 -0400 John Bleichert wrote: > Apache on Debian Jessie = Apache 2.4 Wheezy = Apache 2.2 Apache 2.4 is very different than 2.2... Many things have changed including variable names, SSL cert configuration, and many others... this is not a Debian thing. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814065618.1606ab5496fc39439c5e1...@1024bits.com
Re: Using a second monitor
On Thu 14 Aug 2014 at 09:08:29 +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: [A nice xrandr howto snipped] > One last thing. Since you do not want to issue this command over and > over again, you can place it into the .xsession file (if you use > xdm/gdm/kdm) or .xinitrc file if you log on in a text console and then > manually run the startx program. Is there a reason to prefer .xinitrc over .xsession with startx? https://lists.debian.org/20140813165134.ge22...@copernicus.demon.co.uk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/14082014114201.39912d455...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Using a second monitor
Elimar Riesebieter writes: > https://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12 Cool page, thank you. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.37625.575337.89...@mail.eng.it
Re: Using a second monitor
* Bret Busby [2014-08-14 17:42 +0800]: [...] > After reading the thread, and the above response, it occurred to me, > that this could be worthwhile to add to the debian.org web site, as a > "HowTo", for whoever has the privileges. > > Or, if such a thing exists, a Debian "HowTo" wiki? https://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12 Elimar -- Alles was viel bedacht wird ist bedenklich!;-) Friedrich Nietzsche -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814103207.ga10...@baumbart.home.lxtec.de
Re: Using a second monitor
Bret Busby writes: > After reading the thread, and the above response, it occurred to me, > that this could be worthwhile to add to the debian.org web site, as a > "HowTo", for whoever has the privileges. I share the part of my .xinitrc that deals with xrandr # check if the tv I have home is connected... if xrandr | grep -q "VGA1 connected 1360x768+0+0" then xrandr --output VGA1 --mode 1920x1080 --pos 0x0 --output LVDS1 --mode 1366x768 --pos 560x1080 # if VGA1 is connected I assume to be at work... elif xrandr | grep -q "VGA1 connected" then xrandr --output VGA1 --left-of LVDS1 --output LVDS1 --mode 1366x768 else # My laptop is without external screen xrandr --output LVDS1 --mode 1366x768 fi -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.36900.595223.246...@mail.eng.it
Re: networking fails with temporary systemd (was auto starting of ppp has stopped working)
Am 14.08.2014 um 05:32 schrieb Rusi Mody: > Aug 14 08:13:15 debian64 pppd[594]: Couldn't open the /dev/ppp device: No > such file or directory Since you don't have the /dev/ppp device, I assume you are not using udev 208-7? Could you please post the version of udev (and systemd) you are using? Thanks -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Using a second monitor
On 14/08/2014, sa...@eng.it wrote: > Robert D. Hilliard writes: > > Reply To: bobhilli...@gmail.com > >> I have a new Dell Ispiron that dual boots Windows 7 and Debian 7.4. > > The new machine uses the F1 key to connect to the second monitor, but > > it only works in Windows - In Debian pressing F! is a noop. > > I would advice to use xrandr. > > First issue the > > xrandr -q command > > in a terminal so that you can see which monitors are available. > > Here is what the output on my laptop: > > 08:42:12 [24] $xrandr -q > Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2390 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192 > LVDS1 connected 1366x768+1024+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > 344mm x 194mm >1366x768 60.0*+ >1360x768 59.8 60.0 >1024x768 60.0 >800x60060.3 56.2 >640x48059.9 > VGA1 connected 1024x768+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 304mm > x 228mm >1024x768 75.1 75.0 70.1 60.0* >800x60072.2 75.0 60.3 >640x48072.8 75.0 60.0 >720x40070.1 > HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > > VGA1 on a laptop SHOULD be always be the VGA connector, on my machine > the screen of the laptop is LVDS1 and it is the default primary > monitor. IF I understood the manual page, the primary monitor is also > the first one listed with the -q option. > > Please note that there are 2 other connectors that are not in use > HDMI1 and DP1. > > Once you know the monitor names you can build the command that better > suits your needs. In the following example I will assume that the > external monitor is named VGA1 and the laptop monitor is named LVDS1. > > If you just need to have the external monitor as only output (you do > not use the laptop monitor) > > xrandr --output VGA1 --primary > > that turns the external monitor into the primary (this comes from one > of the pages mentioned in this thread). I will use this command with a > slight change: > > xrandr --output VGA1 --primary --output LVDS1 --off > > that shuts down the laptop monitor and saves some power. To turn the > monitor on you must issue the > > xrandr --output LVDS1 --mode widthxheight. > > This command > > xrandr -output VGA1 -same-as LVDS1 > > turns the external monitor into a mirror of the internal monitor > without changing the primary monitor. > > Reading the xrandr manual you will discover what options suits your > problem best. > > One last thing. Since you do not want to issue this command over and > over again, you can place it into the .xsession file (if you use > xdm/gdm/kdm) or .xinitrc file if you log on in a text console and then > manually run the startx program. > > -- After reading the thread, and the above response, it occurred to me, that this could be worthwhile to add to the debian.org web site, as a "HowTo", for whoever has the privileges. Or, if such a thing exists, a Debian "HowTo" wiki? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cacx6j8mqfwsyzec8bxstutws7lqspv0fbbswbpycuy+1cau...@mail.gmail.com
Re: kernel upgrade in squeeze; was Re: TP-link TL-WN722N with Squeeze
On Mi, 13 aug 14, 17:13:24, pe...@easthope.ca wrote: > * From: Andrei POPESCU > * Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 08:32:32 +0300 > > ... complete output from running apt-get ... > > root@armada:/home/peter# apt-get install linux-image-2.6-686-pae ... > root@armada:/home/peter# apt-get install linux-image-3.2.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae I think you're missing '-t squeeze-backports' as per http://backports.debian.org/Instructions/#index3h2 Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Jo, 14 aug 14, 09:48:45, Joel Rees wrote: > > A four-four draw in the technical committees should have been a call > to open the discussion to a wider user base, not a call for one member > of the committee to make an arbitrary decision. Things are not > functioning correctly "up" there, even if we ignore the Social > Contract. This seems to come up from time to time so I have to say: The vote against sysvinit was 7:1 Sysvinit didn't even beat Further Discussion (4:4), which in Debian's voting system means "we would rather restart the discussion than continue with sysvinit". The 4:4 draw you are referring to, the one decided by the Chairman's casting vote was for the systemd vs. upstart part of the vote. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00405.html Add to this that the Technical Committee specifically designed the resolution to be overridable by a General Resolution with a simple majority (vs. the two thirds required by the constitution to override the Technical Committee). Yet, - *nobody* proposed a resolution to change systemd with upstart or stick with sysvinit - the proposed resolution to decide between loose coupling vs. tight coupling didn't even gather enough sponsors. https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg0.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg00151.html Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Using a second monitor
Robert D. Hilliard writes: > Reply To: bobhilli...@gmail.com > I have a new Dell Ispiron that dual boots Windows 7 and Debian 7.4. > The new machine uses the F1 key to connect to the second monitor, but > it only works in Windows - In Debian pressing F! is a noop. I would advice to use xrandr. First issue the xrandr -q command in a terminal so that you can see which monitors are available. Here is what the output on my laptop: 08:42:12 [24] $xrandr -q Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2390 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192 LVDS1 connected 1366x768+1024+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 344mm x 194mm 1366x768 60.0*+ 1360x768 59.8 60.0 1024x768 60.0 800x60060.3 56.2 640x48059.9 VGA1 connected 1024x768+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 304mm x 228mm 1024x768 75.1 75.0 70.1 60.0* 800x60072.2 75.0 60.3 640x48072.8 75.0 60.0 720x40070.1 HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) VGA1 on a laptop SHOULD be always be the VGA connector, on my machine the screen of the laptop is LVDS1 and it is the default primary monitor. IF I understood the manual page, the primary monitor is also the first one listed with the -q option. Please note that there are 2 other connectors that are not in use HDMI1 and DP1. Once you know the monitor names you can build the command that better suits your needs. In the following example I will assume that the external monitor is named VGA1 and the laptop monitor is named LVDS1. If you just need to have the external monitor as only output (you do not use the laptop monitor) xrandr --output VGA1 --primary that turns the external monitor into the primary (this comes from one of the pages mentioned in this thread). I will use this command with a slight change: xrandr --output VGA1 --primary --output LVDS1 --off that shuts down the laptop monitor and saves some power. To turn the monitor on you must issue the xrandr --output LVDS1 --mode widthxheight. This command xrandr -output VGA1 -same-as LVDS1 turns the external monitor into a mirror of the internal monitor without changing the primary monitor. Reading the xrandr manual you will discover what options suits your problem best. One last thing. Since you do not want to issue this command over and over again, you can place it into the .xsession file (if you use xdm/gdm/kdm) or .xinitrc file if you log on in a text console and then manually run the startx program. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21484.24685.761993.144...@mail.eng.it
