Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Emanuel Berg]

coreyh wrote:

> Should CLI (command line interface) have a nice UI library?

You mean, a GUI editor or IDE to write CLI/TUI software?

Interesting question ... Emacs Gnus, maybe?

https://dataswamp.org/~incal/figures/gnus/gnus-gmane.png

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: what's the right way to resolve localhost's IPs

[Emanuel Berg]

fh wrote:

> In my shell script, how to get the localhost's IPs (eth0 and
> eth1) correctly? I know I can run 'ifconfig' and grep etc,
> but it's maybe not that graceful.

Here is what I do, now idea if it's a good idea but maybe it
can help:

#! /bin/zsh
#
# this file:
#   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/ip

public-ip () {
local name=$funcstack[1]
local url='http://checkip.amazonaws.com'
local open_dns=opendns.com
echo $(curl --no-progress-meter $url) "($name)"
dig +short myip.${open_dns} @resolver1.${open_dns}
}

inet () {
local name=$funcstack[1]
echo $(hostname -I | awk '{print $1}') "($name)"
ifconfig $net | awk '/mask/{print $2}'
ip addr show $net | awk '/inet /{print $2}' | cut -d '/' -f 1
}

list-ip () {
public-ip
inet
}
alias lip=list-ip

# $ lip
# 92.34.142.23
# 92.34.142.23
# 192.168.10.224
# 192.168.10.224
# 192.168.10.224

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

rtorrent man page, Jari "Rakshasa" Sundell mail bounces

[Emanuel Berg]

FYI the man page for rtorrent, from 2015-02-25, has this part

AUTHORS
   Jari "Rakshasa" Sundell 

I tried to mail him but that mail bounces, apparently it's an
alias which expands into ja...@student.matnat.uio.no but it's
a "Gone", 550.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Unable to open Thunderbird as default calendar app

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/03/2023 08:01, John Boxall wrote:

 "xdg-mime query default x-scheme-handler/webcal
org.gnome.Evolution.desktop"


To express it explicitly: handling of "text/calendar" .ics files and 
webcal: (webcals:) URI schemes are configured independently. From your 
original message it was unclear for me if you mean a https: link to an 
.ics file or not.


Alternative command that actually calls xdg-mime:

xdg-settings get default-url-scheme-handler webcal
thunderbird.desktop

Both commands may set handlers.


In Firefox check application associations in preferences (settings).


I was able to change the application association in Firefox which 
allowed me to select the Thunderbird launch script in /usr/bin and then 
process the URL.


When associations are properly added to ~/.config/mimeapps.list, firefox 
should offer thunderbird directly without necessity to browse filesystem 
for the executable.


Chrome does not have the same capability as Firefox for application 
associations and relies on the system file associations.


Chrome invokes xdg-open that should execute "gio open". Gnome either 
uses default handler or display a dialog with alternatives.



 file "appointments (4).ics"
 appointments (4).ics: vCalendar calendar file


   file --mime
   uid.ics: text/calendar; charset=us-ascii

is more relevant for configuration of MIME types


 text/calendar=thunderbird.desktop


Such entry is present in thunderbird.desktop, so additional 
configuration should not be necessary.


I missed the x-scheme-handler/webcal mime type which was the root of my 
problem.


For some reason posting content of ~/.config/mimeapps.list you missed 
section headers.


[Added Associations]
x-scheme-handler/webcal=thunderbird.desktop
x-scheme-handler/webcals=thunderbird.desktop

should be enough for Gnome to add Thunderbird to open dialog. Unsure if 
x-scheme-handler/webcals is really necessary. To set thunderbird *by 
default*:


[Default Applications]
x-scheme-handler/webcal=thunderbird.desktop
x-scheme-handler/webcals=thunderbird.desktop

and check that it is not overridden. You posted a lot of files and some 
of them might have higher priority for backward compatibility.


Ubuntu has x-scheme-handler/webcal in thunderbird.desktop. You may 
submit a request to https://bugs.debian.org similar to the mid: 
(Message-ID) URI scheme https://bugs.debian.org/1008159


The following pages describe how to configure associations of MIME types 
and applications, unfortunately URI schemes are not mentioned:


https://help.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/mime-types-application.html.en
Override the default registered application for all users

https://help.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/mime-types-application-user.html.en
Override the default registered application for individual users

I am unaware of Debian docs, however an example of setting scheme 
handler may be found in https://wiki.debian.org/DefaultWebBrowser The 
following page looks too general https://wiki.debian.org/MimeTypesSupport

Re: Unable to open Thunderbird as default calendar app

[John Boxall]

On 2023-03-29 00:21, Max Nikulin wrote:
Your description is too general, it lacks details. E.g. you did not 
provide exact commands and their output that you use to check that 
defaults are set properly.


Max, though I queried several of the mime types (via "xdg-mime query 
default *), the one I missed was "x-scheme-handler/webcal" which was 
still set to Evolution.


"xdg-mime query default x-scheme-handler/webcal
org.gnome.Evolution.desktop"



In Firefox check application associations in preferences (settings).



I was able to change the application association in Firefox which 
allowed me to select the Thunderbird launch script in /usr/bin and then 
process the URL.


Chrome does not have the same capability as Firefox for application 
associations and relies on the system file associations.


If you save link target to disk, can you open the downloaded file by 
thunderbird directly and by xdg-open? What is MIME type reported by the 
"file" utility?



Yes, saving the file would have worked.

file "appointments (4).ics"
appointments (4).ics: vCalendar calendar file



Behavior might depend on your desktop environment.



GNOME desktop.



It is hard to reason whether it should work without details what you 
have added to this file.


These were queried (via xdg-mime) then added or changed in the files listed:

text/calendar=thunderbird.desktop
text/x-vcard=thunderbird.desktop
application/mbox=thunderbird.desktop
message/rfc822=thunderbird.desktop
x-scheme-handler/mailto=thunderbird.desktop



Check entries related to evolution in this file and MIME types specified 
in its .desktop file.




I missed the x-scheme-handler/webcal mime type which was the root of my 
problem.


Thank you for the help and push to look closer.

--
Regards,

John Boxall

Re: Where has the Gnome hot corner setting gone?

[Richmond]

Richmond wrote:
> Cindy Sue Causey  writes:
>
>> On 3/29/23, Richmond  wrote:
>>> I thought I had disabled hot corners, but occasionally, if I select and
>>> swipe in the location bar of my browser, it activates hot corner. When I
>>> went back to check the setting which was in "multitasking" before, that
>>> tab has gone. Where is the hot corner setting now?
>>
>> Hi.. I've taken a poke at this via an Internet search. I originally
>> missed you declaring GNOME in the subject line. That brings up this:
>>
>> gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface enable-hot-corners false
>>
>> That's a tweak on where they're telling the user on this webpage to
>> enter "true":
>>
>> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1259451/how-to-enable-to-hot-corners-function-on-lubuntu20-04
>>
>> Maybe once you set that, gsettings can be used to adjust it from
>> there? I tried that command on my setup. It didn't complain since I do
>> have one or more GNOME packages installed. Mine's currently set to
>> "true" with no obvious GUI to set up what actions go with the 4
>> corners.
>>
>> Because you mentioned this was affecting your browser usage, maybe
>> this explains what happened there:
>>
>> https://haydenjames.io/ubuntu-22-04-install-gnome-extensions-manager-workaround/
>>
>> It's saying that Firefox, for one, is no longer compatible in that
>> operating system.
>>
>> With some more searching, I encountered gnome-shell-extensions and
>> gnome-shell-extension-manager. Those may or may not help, but they do
>> exist and are specifically mentioned with respect to toggling hot
>> corners.
>>
>> Searching for those two and Debian as keywords keeps trying to point
>> users to outside websites. I don't know why it would since it looks
>> like the same packages are available through Debian's own apt package
>> manager.
>>
>> WARNING: I was going to test drive the extension manager, but
>> gnome-shell-extensions by itself wants to install 201 new packages at
>> 125MB download, 488MB of additional space used. Maybe next time.
>>
>> If anyone gets curious about hot corners, apparently not all desktops
>> offer them and/or they store hot corners access in varying settings
>> locations. Best bet might be to specify the desktop environment in
>> searches.
>>
>> "apt-get search" pulls up an applet for Budgie. Anything else with hot
>> corners apparently has them included as one piece of an inclusive
>> "goodies" type package.
>>
>> Me? I tried it, maybe when I was trapped using Mint's LiveDVD. The
>> experience lasted about 90 seconds. My mouse usage is too erratic,
>> moves around the screen too much so the otherwise helpful effect got
>> old really quick.
>>
>> Cindy :)
> That's interesting because when I entered this:
>
> gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.interface enable-hot-corners
>
> it said:
>
> false
>
> Which means I have disabled it, and the effect I saw must have been a
> bug. But it is hard to recreate. It happens from time to time though, I
> am using a trackball mouse so zooming to the top right can happen quite
> easily.
>
I find it easy to recreate now. Just press and hold the left mouse
button, then whizz up to the top left corner, and it goes into whatever
mode, even though hot corners are disabled.

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Steve McIntyre]

sulfur...@gmail.com wrote
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>Hello
>
>I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi adapter.
>
>As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the installer
>stops blank.
>
>The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
>Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
>then... :
>Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
>hardware init failed
>[ loaded modules]
>[ stack trace ]
>
>rfkill
>wiphy
>ieee802
>
>
>Any ideas or workaround for this?

There's a bug in the kernel driver here, that we've picked up in
testing of these exact images. See https://bugs.debian.org/1029116 and
https://bugs.debian.org/1031286 if you're interested in the details.

We're planning on doing another debian-installer release in the next
few days which will include this fix. Or if you try one of the current
daily/weekly images it will most likely work too...

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
  note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
  fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"

Re: Where has the Gnome hot corner setting gone?

[Richmond]

Cindy Sue Causey  writes:

> On 3/29/23, Richmond  wrote:
>> I thought I had disabled hot corners, but occasionally, if I select and
>> swipe in the location bar of my browser, it activates hot corner. When I
>> went back to check the setting which was in "multitasking" before, that
>> tab has gone. Where is the hot corner setting now?
>
>
> Hi.. I've taken a poke at this via an Internet search. I originally
> missed you declaring GNOME in the subject line. That brings up this:
>
> gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface enable-hot-corners false
>
> That's a tweak on where they're telling the user on this webpage to
> enter "true":
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1259451/how-to-enable-to-hot-corners-function-on-lubuntu20-04
>
> Maybe once you set that, gsettings can be used to adjust it from
> there? I tried that command on my setup. It didn't complain since I do
> have one or more GNOME packages installed. Mine's currently set to
> "true" with no obvious GUI to set up what actions go with the 4
> corners.
>
> Because you mentioned this was affecting your browser usage, maybe
> this explains what happened there:
>
> https://haydenjames.io/ubuntu-22-04-install-gnome-extensions-manager-workaround/
>
> It's saying that Firefox, for one, is no longer compatible in that
> operating system.
>
> With some more searching, I encountered gnome-shell-extensions and
> gnome-shell-extension-manager. Those may or may not help, but they do
> exist and are specifically mentioned with respect to toggling hot
> corners.
>
> Searching for those two and Debian as keywords keeps trying to point
> users to outside websites. I don't know why it would since it looks
> like the same packages are available through Debian's own apt package
> manager.
>
> WARNING: I was going to test drive the extension manager, but
> gnome-shell-extensions by itself wants to install 201 new packages at
> 125MB download, 488MB of additional space used. Maybe next time.
>
> If anyone gets curious about hot corners, apparently not all desktops
> offer them and/or they store hot corners access in varying settings
> locations. Best bet might be to specify the desktop environment in
> searches.
>
> "apt-get search" pulls up an applet for Budgie. Anything else with hot
> corners apparently has them included as one piece of an inclusive
> "goodies" type package.
>
> Me? I tried it, maybe when I was trapped using Mint's LiveDVD. The
> experience lasted about 90 seconds. My mouse usage is too erratic,
> moves around the screen too much so the otherwise helpful effect got
> old really quick.
>
> Cindy :)

That's interesting because when I entered this:

gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.interface enable-hot-corners

it said:

false

Which means I have disabled it, and the effect I saw must have been a
bug. But it is hard to recreate. It happens from time to time though, I
am using a trackball mouse so zooming to the top right can happen quite
easily.

Re: USB discs no detectats/muntats

[Xavier Narcís]

En miércoles, 29 de marzo de 2023, 00:07:30 CEST, Jordi Miguel 
 escribió: 





Hola,

Fa pinta que estas utilitzant usbguard i aquest està bloquejant el
dispositiu USB.
A l'enllaç [1] que et poso trobaràs com autoritzar el dispositiu USB
que endolles i com fer aquest canvi permanent.

[1] https://askubuntu.com/a/1331639


Hola Jordi,


Doncs, he seguit aquesta pista que has indicat i, l'has clavat !!!

1.- He mirat si tenia instal·lat aquest paquest:

apt list --installed | grep guard | wgetpaste -s 0x0

I, veig que sí:

http://0x0.st/Hodc.txt

2.- He mirat com és aquest paquet:

dpkg -L libkf5sysguard-data libksysguardformatter1 libksysguardsensorfaces1 
libksysguardsensors1 libksysguardsystemstats1 libusbguard1 
qml-module-org-kde-ksysguard usbguard | wgetpaste -s 0x0

http://0x0.st/Hodm.txt

3.- Al veure que té executables he mirat si estaven en marxa ...:

sudo ps -xa | grep guard

$ sudo ps -xa | grep guard
[sudo] contrasenya per a fanelli:  
    768 ?    Ssl    0:00 /usr/sbin/usbguard-dbus --system
    871 ?    Sl 0:00 /usr/sbin/usbguard-daemon -f -s -c 
/etc/usbguard/usbguard-daemon.conf
  20130 pts/1    S+ 0:00 grep guard
 
Per això, com dius tu, em "bloquejave" els USB.

4.- He provat aviam si treure els paquets, en n'hi havie prou:

sudo apt remove --purge libkf5sysguard-data libksysguardformatter1 
libksysguardsensorfaces1 libksysguardsensors1 libksysguardsystemstats1 
libusbguard1 libusbguard-dev usbguard qml-module-org-kde-ksysguard


I, cagun l'olla ! Ha funcionat !!!


Gràcies.

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Ismael Farfán]

El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 13:59, Steve McIntyre (st...@einval.com)
escribió:

> sulfur...@gmail.com wrote
> >-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> >Hello
> >
> >I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi
> adapter.
> >
> >As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the
> installer
> >stops blank.
> >
> >The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> >Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> >then... :
> >Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> >hardware init failed
> >[ loaded modules]
> >[ stack trace ]
> >
> >rfkill
> >wiphy
> >ieee802
> >
> >
> >Any ideas or workaround for this?
>
> There's a bug in the kernel driver here, that we've picked up in
> testing of these exact images. See https://bugs.debian.org/1029116 and
> https://bugs.debian.org/1031286 if you're interested in the details.
>
>
Yes, that's exactly the issue, and yeah, the weekly image worked just fine.
I already installed using the weekly image but I'll test when the new
installer comes out anyway just to help the community :)

cheers
-Ismael



> We're planning on doing another debian-installer release in the next
> few days which will include this fix. Or if you try one of the current
> daily/weekly images it will most likely work too...
>
> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.
> st...@einval.com
> < sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
>   note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
>   fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"
>


-- 
Do not let me induce you to satisfy my curiosity, from an expectation, that
I shall gratify yours. What I may judge proper to conceal, does not concern
myself alone.

Crear lanzadores con permisos de superusuario.

[Ramses]

Hola a tod@s,

Tengo estos dos lanzadores en mi Escritorio:

[Desktop Entry]
Name=Zenmap
GenericName=GUI Port Scanner
TryExec=zenmap
Exec=zenmap %F
Terminal=false
Icon=/usr/local/share/zenmap/pixmaps/zenmap.png
Type=Application
Categories=Application;Network;Security;
Comment=A cross-platform GUI for the Nmap Security Scanner.
Keywords=network;scan;scanner;IP;security;


[Desktop Entry]
Name=Zenmap (as root)
GenericName=GUI Port Scanner
TryExec=/usr/local/share/zenmap/su-to-zenmap.sh
Exec=/usr/local/share/zenmap/su-to-zenmap.sh %F
Terminal=false
Icon=/usr/local/share/zenmap/pixmaps/zenmap.png
Type=Application
Categories=Application;Network;Security;
Comment=A cross-platform GUI for the Nmap Security Scanner.
Keywords=network;scan;scanner;IP;security;

Si ejecuto el primero "Name=Zenmap", me dice que se está intentando ejecutar el 
programa con un usuario que no tiene permisos, y a continuación me lo abre.

Si ejecuto el segundo "Name=Zenmap (as root)", no hace nada.

Si en un terminal ejecuto esta línea "/usr/local/share/zenmap/su-to-zenmap.sh" 
del segundo, no hace nada, pero si en el terminal le antepongo el "sudo" a esa 
línea "sudo /usr/local/share/zenmap/su-to-zenmap.sh", se abre sin problemas.

He probado a ponerles "sudo" al principio de las lineas en los comandos de los 
lanzadores, pero me da error.

¿Alguna ayuda de cómo modificar loas lanzadores para que me los ejecute como 
root?


Saludos y gracias

Re: Where has the Gnome hot corner setting gone?

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 3/29/23, Richmond  wrote:
> I thought I had disabled hot corners, but occasionally, if I select and
> swipe in the location bar of my browser, it activates hot corner. When I
> went back to check the setting which was in "multitasking" before, that
> tab has gone. Where is the hot corner setting now?


Hi.. I've taken a poke at this via an Internet search. I originally
missed you declaring GNOME in the subject line. That brings up this:

gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface enable-hot-corners false

That's a tweak on where they're telling the user on this webpage to
enter "true":

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1259451/how-to-enable-to-hot-corners-function-on-lubuntu20-04

Maybe once you set that, gsettings can be used to adjust it from
there? I tried that command on my setup. It didn't complain since I do
have one or more GNOME packages installed. Mine's currently set to
"true" with no obvious GUI to set up what actions go with the 4
corners.

Because you mentioned this was affecting your browser usage, maybe
this explains what happened there:

https://haydenjames.io/ubuntu-22-04-install-gnome-extensions-manager-workaround/

It's saying that Firefox, for one, is no longer compatible in that
operating system.

With some more searching, I encountered gnome-shell-extensions and
gnome-shell-extension-manager. Those may or may not help, but they do
exist and are specifically mentioned with respect to toggling hot
corners.

Searching for those two and Debian as keywords keeps trying to point
users to outside websites. I don't know why it would since it looks
like the same packages are available through Debian's own apt package
manager.

WARNING: I was going to test drive the extension manager, but
gnome-shell-extensions by itself wants to install 201 new packages at
125MB download, 488MB of additional space used. Maybe next time.

If anyone gets curious about hot corners, apparently not all desktops
offer them and/or they store hot corners access in varying settings
locations. Best bet might be to specify the desktop environment in
searches.

"apt-get search" pulls up an applet for Budgie. Anything else with hot
corners apparently has them included as one piece of an inclusive
"goodies" type package.

Me? I tried it, maybe when I was trapped using Mint's LiveDVD. The
experience lasted about 90 seconds. My mouse usage is too erratic,
moves around the screen too much so the otherwise helpful effect got
old really quick.

Cindy :)
-- 
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
* runs with birdseed *

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[David Wright]

On Wed 29 Mar 2023 at 09:39:01 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> I tried with these 2 installers:
> 7da925a34f6f7ab6e39ad64514139afb  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> 547c0e2f85ec04ffec6d08a1e84c64e6
>  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
> 
> both contain firmware-misc-nonfree_20230117-2_all.deb
> which is, I guess, where it's trying to load the firmware from.

I don't know how to access that file. Currently, bullseye
has version 20210315-3, and the files that I quoted,

> >  * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
> >(mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
> >  * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
> >(mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)

are from a page that's slightly older than the version of the
package that it leads to, which you reference here:

> There's a newer version of the firmware in testing though:
> firmware-misc-nonfree_20230210-4_all.deb
> 
> I noticed there's a second installer in the *snapshots* section, it also
> fails to load the firmware but the *installation continues correctly* to
> the next step
> aa5e3fe762300ba87fce77a6bf260a3e  debian-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso

. What version of firmware-misc-nonfree does that include?

. Does it try to load the two .bin files listed above?
  It doesn't help to write "(lots of this)" unless
  indicating whether any of the failures mention /your/
  device name, as opposed to similar-looking ones.
  It's normal for one module to try loading many .bins
  before the right one is found.

I have noticed that those .bin files vary between packages having
different dates:

$ ls -GlgR /tmp/202*
/tmp/20210315-3:
total 792
-rw-r--r-- 1  90464 Jul 25  2021 WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin
-rw-r--r-- 1 712832 Jul 25  2021 WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin

/tmp/20230210-4:
total 796
-rw-r--r-- 1  92192 Mar 11 08:15 WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin
-rw-r--r-- 1 719156 Mar 11 08:15 WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin
$ 

I haven't looked at which kernel modules try to load that firmware,
and whether they have changed.

Cheers,
David.

Where has the Gnome hot corner setting gone?

[Richmond]

I thought I had disabled hot corners, but occasionally, if I select and
swipe in the location bar of my browser, it activates hot corner. When I
went back to check the setting which was in "multitasking" before, that
tab has gone. Where is the hot corner setting now?

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Jude DaShiell]

When the installation starts up, hit the < key until a numbered menu comes
up.  A default will be on the menu don't take the default yet.  Choose 19
which should be change priority and choose 4 in tha t low priority
messages.  When you get back out to the menu choose 21 save logs and
choose save logs to mounted file system and hit enter.
Then when you get out to the menu again take the default number and go as
far as you are able.  Your logs will be in /var/logs and those should be
sent to debian-b...@lists.debian.org with any additional information you
would like to share.
That may get debian improved.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and amo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, Ismael Farfán wrote:

> El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 10:33, Jude DaShiell (jdash...@panix.com)
> escribió:
>
> > Could it be Debian hasn't got your firmware in any of its installations?
> > That points at very new firmware.
> >
> >
> The issue is that the installation should continue anyway and get packages
> from the DVD, instead the installer hangs there forever without any message.
>
> The the snapshots installer worked just fine 
>
>
>
> >
> > -- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
> > defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and amo. Please use in that
> > order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, Ismael Farfán wrote:
> >
> > > I tried with these 2 installers:
> > > 7da925a34f6f7ab6e39ad64514139afb
> > debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> > > 547c0e2f85ec04ffec6d08a1e84c64e6
> > >  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
> > >
> > > both contain firmware-misc-nonfree_20230117-2_all.deb
> > > which is, I guess, where it's trying to load the firmware from.
> > > There's a newer version of the firmware in testing though:
> > > firmware-misc-nonfree_20230210-4_all.deb
> > >
> > > I noticed there's a second installer in the *snapshots* section, it also
> > > fails to load the firmware but the *installation continues correctly* to
> > > the next step
> > > aa5e3fe762300ba87fce77a6bf260a3e  debian-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > -Ismael
> > >
> > >
> > > El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 09:16, David Wright (
> > deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk)
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > > > On Tue 28 Mar 2023 at 12:57:28 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi
> > > > adapter.
> > > > >
> > > > > As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the
> > > > installer
> > > > > stops blank.
> > > > >
> > > > > The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> > > > > Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> > > > > then... :
> > > > > Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> > > > > hardware init failed
> > > > > [ loaded modules]
> > > > > [ stack trace ]
> > > > > 
> > > > > rfkill
> > > > > wiphy
> > > > > ieee802
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any ideas or workaround for this?
> > > > >
> > > > > I also tried with the advanced installer from the DVD but it always
> > wants
> > > > > to try detecting the network HW and stops there.
> > > >
> > > > You need to post the full names of what you used to install with.
> > > > It's likely that your downloads aren't the firmware-inclusive
> > > > versions that you need. If so, you need to download one containing
> > > > the non-free firmware, which appears to be available:
> > > >
> > > >  * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
> > > >(mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
> > > >  * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
> > > >(mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)
> > > >
> > > > It's also /possible/ that the bookworm installer is still not
> > > > production-ready yet.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > David.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Ismael Farfán]

El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 10:33, Jude DaShiell (jdash...@panix.com)
escribió:

> Could it be Debian hasn't got your firmware in any of its installations?
> That points at very new firmware.
>
>
The issue is that the installation should continue anyway and get packages
from the DVD, instead the installer hangs there forever without any message.

The the snapshots installer worked just fine 



>
> -- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
> defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and amo. Please use in that
> order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, Ismael Farfán wrote:
>
> > I tried with these 2 installers:
> > 7da925a34f6f7ab6e39ad64514139afb
> debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> > 547c0e2f85ec04ffec6d08a1e84c64e6
> >  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
> >
> > both contain firmware-misc-nonfree_20230117-2_all.deb
> > which is, I guess, where it's trying to load the firmware from.
> > There's a newer version of the firmware in testing though:
> > firmware-misc-nonfree_20230210-4_all.deb
> >
> > I noticed there's a second installer in the *snapshots* section, it also
> > fails to load the firmware but the *installation continues correctly* to
> > the next step
> > aa5e3fe762300ba87fce77a6bf260a3e  debian-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> >
> > Regards
> > -Ismael
> >
> >
> > El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 09:16, David Wright (
> deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk)
> > escribió:
> >
> > > On Tue 28 Mar 2023 at 12:57:28 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi
> > > adapter.
> > > >
> > > > As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the
> > > installer
> > > > stops blank.
> > > >
> > > > The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> > > > Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> > > > then... :
> > > > Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> > > > hardware init failed
> > > > [ loaded modules]
> > > > [ stack trace ]
> > > > 
> > > > rfkill
> > > > wiphy
> > > > ieee802
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas or workaround for this?
> > > >
> > > > I also tried with the advanced installer from the DVD but it always
> wants
> > > > to try detecting the network HW and stops there.
> > >
> > > You need to post the full names of what you used to install with.
> > > It's likely that your downloads aren't the firmware-inclusive
> > > versions that you need. If so, you need to download one containing
> > > the non-free firmware, which appears to be available:
> > >
> > >  * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
> > >(mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
> > >  * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
> > >(mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)
> > >
> > > It's also /possible/ that the bookworm installer is still not
> > > production-ready yet.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > David.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>


-- 
Do not let me induce you to satisfy my curiosity, from an expectation, that
I shall gratify yours. What I may judge proper to conceal, does not concern
myself alone.

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Jude DaShiell]

Could it be Debian hasn't got your firmware in any of its installations?
That points at very new firmware.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and amo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, Ismael Farfán wrote:

> I tried with these 2 installers:
> 7da925a34f6f7ab6e39ad64514139afb  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-DVD-1.iso
> 547c0e2f85ec04ffec6d08a1e84c64e6
>  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
>
> both contain firmware-misc-nonfree_20230117-2_all.deb
> which is, I guess, where it's trying to load the firmware from.
> There's a newer version of the firmware in testing though:
> firmware-misc-nonfree_20230210-4_all.deb
>
> I noticed there's a second installer in the *snapshots* section, it also
> fails to load the firmware but the *installation continues correctly* to
> the next step
> aa5e3fe762300ba87fce77a6bf260a3e  debian-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso
>
> Regards
> -Ismael
>
>
> El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 09:16, David Wright (deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk)
> escribió:
>
> > On Tue 28 Mar 2023 at 12:57:28 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi
> > adapter.
> > >
> > > As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the
> > installer
> > > stops blank.
> > >
> > > The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> > > Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> > > then... :
> > > Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> > > hardware init failed
> > > [ loaded modules]
> > > [ stack trace ]
> > > 
> > > rfkill
> > > wiphy
> > > ieee802
> > >
> > >
> > > Any ideas or workaround for this?
> > >
> > > I also tried with the advanced installer from the DVD but it always wants
> > > to try detecting the network HW and stops there.
> >
> > You need to post the full names of what you used to install with.
> > It's likely that your downloads aren't the firmware-inclusive
> > versions that you need. If so, you need to download one containing
> > the non-free firmware, which appears to be available:
> >
> >  * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
> >(mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
> >  * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
> >(mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)
> >
> > It's also /possible/ that the bookworm installer is still not
> > production-ready yet.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David.
> >
> >
>
>

Re: alternative views of PNG (was Re: Buster => Bullseye: packages keptback)

[Charlie Gibbs]

On Wed Mar 29 08:56:04 2023 davidson  wrote:

> If I wrote an essay about the undignified interfaces I have no time
> for, I would call it "Of Mice and Menus".



If I write my essay first, I might have to steal that
(properly attributed, of course).

> People want to waste their time. If you get in the way of that, if you
> suggest they should do something else, they will hate you forever.



Stop it.  My hands are getting sore.

Let them waste their time.  I draw the line when they waste _my_ time.

--
/~\  Charlie Gibbs  |  You can't save the earth
\ /|  unless you're willing to
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |  make other people sacrifice.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |-- Dogbert the green consultant

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[Ismael Farfán]

I tried with these 2 installers:
7da925a34f6f7ab6e39ad64514139afb  debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-DVD-1.iso
547c0e2f85ec04ffec6d08a1e84c64e6
 debian-bookworm-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso

both contain firmware-misc-nonfree_20230117-2_all.deb
which is, I guess, where it's trying to load the firmware from.
There's a newer version of the firmware in testing though:
firmware-misc-nonfree_20230210-4_all.deb

I noticed there's a second installer in the *snapshots* section, it also
fails to load the firmware but the *installation continues correctly* to
the next step
aa5e3fe762300ba87fce77a6bf260a3e  debian-testing-amd64-DVD-1.iso

Regards
-Ismael


El mié, 29 mar 2023 a la(s) 09:16, David Wright (deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk)
escribió:

> On Tue 28 Mar 2023 at 12:57:28 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi
> adapter.
> >
> > As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the
> installer
> > stops blank.
> >
> > The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> > Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> > then... :
> > Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> > hardware init failed
> > [ loaded modules]
> > [ stack trace ]
> > 
> > rfkill
> > wiphy
> > ieee802
> >
> >
> > Any ideas or workaround for this?
> >
> > I also tried with the advanced installer from the DVD but it always wants
> > to try detecting the network HW and stops there.
>
> You need to post the full names of what you used to install with.
> It's likely that your downloads aren't the firmware-inclusive
> versions that you need. If so, you need to download one containing
> the non-free firmware, which appears to be available:
>
>  * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
>(mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
>  * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
>(mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)
>
> It's also /possible/ that the bookworm installer is still not
> production-ready yet.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
>

-- 
Do not let me induce you to satisfy my curiosity, from an expectation, that
I shall gratify yours. What I may judge proper to conceal, does not concern
myself alone.

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Nicolas George]

The Wanderer (12023-03-29):
> I think it's plausible/probable that it's not so much about the format
> itself, but about the data/meaning/information attached to that format.
> 
> Text has much more *nuance* and *detail* attached to it than any
> non-text-based programming structure I've ever run across, while also
> having more *formality* and *precision* attached to it than e.g.
> spoken-word conversations (which have a lot more nuance, because of the
> added information channels of tone and inflection and the like).

The issue is not what you CAN express with different media: any program
can be expressed as a flowchart.

The problem is that even the simplest program will require a huge area
with tiny icons in it.

What matters here is density: text is the densest way we know to express
rigorous information in a way a human can access directly.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: [Bookworm] installer stops due to missing wifi firmware

[David Wright]

On Tue 28 Mar 2023 at 12:57:28 (-0600), Ismael Farfán wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to install Bookworm on a G513QY laptop with MT7921 wifi adapter.
> 
> As soon as the installer (Net or DVD) tries to detect the HW, the installer
> stops blank.
> 
> The last thing I see in dmesg is something like
> Detected ethernet HW, renamed to eth0 (succeed)
> then... :
> Failed to load mt7821 firmware (lots of this)
> hardware init failed
> [ loaded modules]
> [ stack trace ]
> 
> rfkill
> wiphy
> ieee802
> 
> 
> Any ideas or workaround for this?
> 
> I also tried with the advanced installer from the DVD but it always wants
> to try detecting the network HW and stops there.

You need to post the full names of what you used to install with.
It's likely that your downloads aren't the firmware-inclusive
versions that you need. If so, you need to download one containing
the non-free firmware, which appears to be available:

 * MediaTek MT7921 hdr firmware, version 20230117170855a
   (mediatek/WIFI_MT7961_patch_mcu_1_2_hdr.bin)
 * MediaTek MT7921 firmware, version 20230117170942
   (mediatek/WIFI_RAM_CODE_MT7961_1.bin)

It's also /possible/ that the bookworm installer is still not
production-ready yet.

Cheers,
David.

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Nicolas George]

Erwan David (12023-03-29):
> and do not forget that CLI is what we use in degraded conditions, eg when
> there is no way to get graphics and colors (text, or  virtualisation solution here> console)
> 
> So we must not depend on graphical capacities to be available

I do not think this is a good argument: nothing forces us to use the
same tools when we have comfortable screens and keyboards and more at
our disposal than when we do not. Of course, we need some tools to work
in limited circumstances, but we do not have to use these tools every
day.

You do what you will, but personally I will keep using zsh and its
features, I will not make /bin/dash my default shell just because I
sometimes have to connect to devices where it is the only shell. And if
that means my finger will try zsh automatisms when I am on these
devices, so be it.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-03-29 at 10:09, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 09:51:13AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
>>> I think you are being too harsh here. Such a question may come 
>>> genuinely from someone who hasn't experienced the power of the 
>>> CLI, which, once you've taken the firs step gently takes you to
>>> small one-liners, little loops and bigger and bigger programs.
>>> 
>>> It has this seamless "growth path" which helps and entices its
>>> users to get better, something I miss from most GUIs, which 
>>> rather tend to degrade the user to a click machine. I don't know
>>> whether this is inherent to GUIs or just the current "social
>>> convention" underlying actual GUIs.
>> 
>> I think it's the same underlying reasons why programming languages
>> are almost universally represented as text: maybe it's just because
>> of habit or "social convention", but I think there's something more
>> fundamental at play, which make it very hard to make non-textual
>> programming languages (and maybe even formal systems in general).
> 
> Perhaps roughly 3k to 4k years of storing, transmitting and
> retrieving information in written form have a part in it.
> 
> It may be a social convention, but by now it runs so deep that I'm 
> convinced you'll find epigenetic traces of it in us humans.

I think it's plausible/probable that it's not so much about the format
itself, but about the data/meaning/information attached to that format.

Text has much more *nuance* and *detail* attached to it than any
non-text-based programming structure I've ever run across, while also
having more *formality* and *precision* attached to it than e.g.
spoken-word conversations (which have a lot more nuance, because of the
added information channels of tone and inflection and the like).

If you can contrive another format for representing the user's intention
that enables comparable or greater amounts of expressiveness, while not
sacrificing much if any precision or rigor, I suspect that that format
might be able to equal or surpass text for programming, etc., purposes.

Good luck with doing that, though; if such a thing were practical, it
would very likely have been invented long since. Unless it only becomes
practical with a technology that's only become available relatively
recently, but unless e.g. the recent forays into "AI" represent such a
thing, I'm not sure what candidates for such a thing there might be.
(And even those "AI"s are interacting with people through text.)

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Erwan David]

Le 29/03/2023 à 16:24, Nicolas George a écrit :

to...@tuxteam.de (12023-03-29):

Perhaps roughly 3k to 4k years of storing, transmitting and retrieving
information in written form have a part in it.

It may be a social convention, but by now it runs so deep that I'm
convinced you'll find epigenetic traces of it in us humans.


Or perhaps those 3-4K years of storing information have selected a
format that is close to the best possible with the limitations of our
brains, our eyes and our hands.

Keyboards are roughly 150 years old: it is possible we find some
improvement on the way they are designed that makes entering data more
efficient.

On the other hand, computers have not changed the fact that data enters
us mostly as images and sound, so I predict it is unlikely we find means
significantly more efficient than reading.

Regards,



and do not forget that CLI is what we use in degraded conditions, eg 
when there is no way to get graphics and colors (text, or favorite virtualisation solution here> console)


So we must not depend on graphical capacities to be available

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Nicolas George]

to...@tuxteam.de (12023-03-29):
> Perhaps roughly 3k to 4k years of storing, transmitting and retrieving
> information in written form have a part in it.
> 
> It may be a social convention, but by now it runs so deep that I'm
> convinced you'll find epigenetic traces of it in us humans.

Or perhaps those 3-4K years of storing information have selected a
format that is close to the best possible with the limitations of our
brains, our eyes and our hands.

Keyboards are roughly 150 years old: it is possible we find some
improvement on the way they are designed that makes entering data more
efficient.

On the other hand, computers have not changed the fact that data enters
us mostly as images and sound, so I predict it is unlikely we find means
significantly more efficient than reading.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 09:51:13AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > I think you are being too harsh here. Such a question may come
> > genuinely from someone who hasn't experienced the power of the
> > CLI, which, once you've taken the firs step gently takes you
> > to small one-liners, little loops and bigger and bigger programs.
> >
> > It has this seamless "growth path" which helps and entices
> > its users to get better, something I miss from most GUIs, which
> > rather tend to degrade the user to a click machine. I don't
> > know whether this is inherent to GUIs or just the current
> > "social convention" underlying actual GUIs.
> 
> I think it's the same underlying reasons why programming languages are
> almost universally represented as text: maybe it's just because of habit
> or "social convention", but I think there's something more fundamental
> at play, which make it very hard to make non-textual programming
> languages (and maybe even formal systems in general).

Perhaps roughly 3k to 4k years of storing, transmitting and retrieving
information in written form have a part in it.

It may be a social convention, but by now it runs so deep that I'm
convinced you'll find epigenetic traces of it in us humans.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

[Résolu] Recherche iso strech (debian 9)

[Norbert Ponce]

Merci à tous.

Le 29/03/2023 à 15:07, Plapla a écrit :

Le 29/03/2023 à 14:55, Norbert Ponce a écrit :

Bonjour,
Je suis à la recherche d'une strech 9 pour la réinstaller sur un 
vieux Toshiba Satellite P 500. J'ai tenté une version 10 mais il y a 
trop de problèmes (manque de mémoire?).
Après une mise en veille sur cette version 10, l'écran est brouillé 
au réveil et il faut relancer la machine.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de lien de téléchargement sur le wiki Debian.
Merci


Il y a ce site d'archives:

https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/

où on peut trouver la dernière version 9:

https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/9.13.0/amd64/iso-dvd/

hth :)

Re: should CLI have a nice UI today?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I think you are being too harsh here. Such a question may come
> genuinely from someone who hasn't experienced the power of the
> CLI, which, once you've taken the firs step gently takes you
> to small one-liners, little loops and bigger and bigger programs.
>
> It has this seamless "growth path" which helps and entices
> its users to get better, something I miss from most GUIs, which
> rather tend to degrade the user to a click machine. I don't
> know whether this is inherent to GUIs or just the current
> "social convention" underlying actual GUIs.

I think it's the same underlying reasons why programming languages are
almost universally represented as text: maybe it's just because of habit
or "social convention", but I think there's something more fundamental
at play, which make it very hard to make non-textual programming
languages (and maybe even formal systems in general).


Stefan

Re: Recherche iso strech (debian 9)

[lol]

Salut,
Ici tu as tout ce qu'il faut!
https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/debian-installer/
Cordialement,
Laurent

Le 2023-03-29 15:55, Norbert Ponce a écrit :

Bonjour,
Je suis à la recherche d'une strech 9 pour la réinstaller sur un vieux 
Toshiba Satellite P 500. J'ai tenté une version 10 mais il y a trop de 
problèmes (manque de mémoire?).
Après une mise en veille sur cette version 10, l'écran est brouillé au 
réveil et il faut relancer la machine.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de lien de téléchargement sur le wiki Debian.
Merci

Re: Recherche iso strech (debian 9)

[Plapla]

Le 29/03/2023 à 14:55, Norbert Ponce a écrit :

Bonjour,
Je suis à la recherche d'une strech 9 pour la réinstaller sur un vieux 
Toshiba Satellite P 500. J'ai tenté une version 10 mais il y a trop de 
problèmes (manque de mémoire?).
Après une mise en veille sur cette version 10, l'écran est brouillé au 
réveil et il faut relancer la machine.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de lien de téléchargement sur le wiki Debian.
Merci


Il y a ce site d'archives:

https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/

où on peut trouver la dernière version 9:

https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/9.13.0/amd64/iso-dvd/

hth :)

Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...

[Dan Ritter]

Albretch Mueller wrote: 
> On 3/29/23, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk  wrote:
> > As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to
> > me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency,
> > since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time,
> > and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get.
> 
>  Well, debian folks say it is gradle folks the ones that didn't get it
> right and vice versa.
>  As you could see from their installation page, the one and only
> installation prerequisite is a java version after the reflection API
> was introduced. I would guess everyone who works from a Debian install
> and need to install gradle is because they are using java already.
> There have been 7 releases till JDK 19.
> 
>  Maybe debian packages should have various installation candidates
> based on the JDK one has installed or during configuration of the
> package if no java install is reachable it should look for it in the
> filesystem and if it is still not found tell user and abort the
> installation.

The way it works in practice is this:

- if you want a system to provide services, Debian has a
consistent and stable method.

- if you want to develop new software or run the latest versions
of some applications, you will need to bring in specialized
infrastructure on top of Debian's stable base. If the software
is destined to be a Debian package, testing or even unstable
might be your preference, and cooperation with a Debian
development team.

The simplest development approach is with the most stable languages. If
you're writing in one of the gcc or clang supported languages, the
versions supplied by Debian are generally what you want to use. But if
you see a specific library that is under current development, or you
need to track recent releases, you will need to obtain it and keep it
up to date yourself. Perl is quite stable, and has tooling to
acquire modules and turn them into Debian packages that works
very well most of the time.

Java and Python are of medium stability. For most projects, a C-like
approach will work, but if you need specific recent features, you will
need to get the ones you want yourself.

For some newer languages, like Go or Rust, where the language
itself is still under significant development, starting with the
Debian-supplied packages is really only suitable for learning
the language. Once you start a serious development effort, you
will definitely want to maintain your own copy from upstream.

-dsr-

Re: debian 11 vs ubuntu 22

[Bret Busby]

On 29/3/23 13:02, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:05:28AM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:

cor...@free.fr writes:


Dear list,

Though I have been using debian 11 for long days, I want to give a try
on ubuntu 22.04.
Do you know what's the main difference for these two systems on
dev/ops environment?


I have experience both Ubuntu and Debian. Google cloud vm is running
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS (+ESM). Then my desktop is Debian 11 under Chromebook.

Ubuntu's advantage is 10 years.


Aha. Just a random test (Debian Bullseye here, so not the newest):

   tomas@trotzki:~$ bash --version
   GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
   Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
   License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 

   This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it.
   There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

This page says that bash 5.1 is 2020-12-07. So Ubuntu 22.10 would be
from... 2030? Operating system from the future! Must be the Flatpaks
or how they are called.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash_(Unix_shell)



And,on Linux Mint Mate 21.1 (based on Ubuntu 22.04) -

"
Wed Mar 29 18:52:00 bret@bret-Precision-Tower-5810:~$ bash --version
GNU bash, version 5.1.16(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 



This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
Wed Mar 29 18:52:11 bret@bret-Precision-Tower-5810:~$
"

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Recherche iso strech (debian 9)

[Norbert Ponce]

Bonjour,
Je suis à la recherche d'une strech 9 pour la réinstaller sur un vieux 
Toshiba Satellite P 500. J'ai tenté une version 10 mais il y a trop de 
problèmes (manque de mémoire?).
Après une mise en veille sur cette version 10, l'écran est brouillé au 
réveil et il faut relancer la machine.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de lien de téléchargement sur le wiki Debian.
Merci

Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...

[Albretch Mueller]

On 3/29/23, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk  wrote:
> As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to
> me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency,
> since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time,
> and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get.

 Well, debian folks say it is gradle folks the ones that didn't get it
right and vice versa.
 As you could see from their installation page, the one and only
installation prerequisite is a java version after the reflection API
was introduced. I would guess everyone who works from a Debian install
and need to install gradle is because they are using java already.
There have been 7 releases till JDK 19.

 Maybe debian packages should have various installation candidates
based on the JDK one has installed or during configuration of the
package if no java install is reachable it should look for it in the
filesystem and if it is still not found tell user and abort the
installation.

 lbrtchx

Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...

[Nicolas George]

debian-u...@howorth.org.uk (12023-03-29):
> As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to
> me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency,
> since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time,
> and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get.

This is true for most packages: you can install your .so.* in
/usr/local/lib/. Yet packages depend on the shared libraries they need.

If you install something separately, the solution to have it fulfill
dependencies for packages is to make and install a dummy package.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...

[debian-user]

Albretch Mueller  wrote:
>  OK this is what the gradle folks told me/us:
> 
>  
> https://discuss.gradle.org/t/gradle-wants-as-java-version-openjdk-11-even-if-a-newer-version-is-installed/45254/6
> 
>  Gradle itself would just use the Java from your JAVA_HOME or as
> fallback from PATH (given you use a version that is compatible with
> your Gradle version, otherwise it will most likely fail to execute
> later on).
> ~
>  so, the installation by apt-get should have detected that I had set
> JAVA_HOME and the included the JDK in my PATH.

As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to
me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency,
since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time,
and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get.

>  In case someone stumbles on the same problems, runs into the same
> thread, here are the quick steps about how to install gradle on Linux
> (without gregorian chanting " ... and if you use Windows, ... and if
> you use MacOS, ..."):
> 
>  1) look for the installation file at: https://gradle.org/install/

[snip of a message where Albretch explains how to install the upstream
version of gradle instead of the packaged version.]

Re: debian 11 vs ubuntu 22

[Bret Busby]

On 29/3/23 08:49, cor...@free.fr wrote:

Dear list,

Though I have been using debian 11 for long days, I want to give a try 
on ubuntu 22.04.
Do you know what's the main difference for these two systems on dev/ops 
environment?


Thanks
Corey Hickman


What exactly is your objective use?

Does Debian 11 do involuntary automated updates and use snap? Ubuntu 
does, which can be disruptive, and unreliable, amongst other things.


Also, if you are going to install on new hardware, is Debian likely to 
have all of the appropriate hardware drivers?


In about 2013, I bought a new super duper whizzbang laptop computer, 
that was the most powerful computer that I had then owned. Reference may 
be found, in list archives of the applicable mailing lists.


It took me eighteen months to get it operational.

The MS-Windows that came with it, was unusable.

Debian Linux at that time, did not have the drivers for the CPU or GPU.

Only two non-MS operating systems had drivers for the CPU; DragonflyBSD 
and Ubuntu Linux.


DragonflyBSD did not have drivers for the GPU, and had the attitude that 
they were not about providing a usable operating system.


So, I got it going with Ubuntu Linux, as the only available, usable, 
operating system, that had available drivers for the hardware.


Ubuntu Linux has since, gone downhill, and, become increasingly 
user-hostile and bloated.


So, I now use Linux Mint Mate 21.1, which is based on Ubuntu 22.04, but, 
without most of the bloatware, and, Linux Mint 21.1, is like the 
assessment of the planet Earth, from about 40 years ago; "Mostly 
harmless". Of course, the assessment of planet Earth, has 
deteriorated,and, is now, probably, "Mostly harmful".


And, Linux Mint operates with mostly "Plug and Play" functionality, 
whether it is laser printers, USB wifi dongles, or, whatever.


And, when I was still using Ubuntu Linux, and bought Samsung T5 and T7 
external USB SSD's, that use the exFAT file format, the drivers were 
natively included in Ubuntu Linux, which also are thence, included in 
Linux Mint.


I suggest that, if you want an efficient OS to consider, rather than 
Ubuntu Linux 22.04, you consider Linus Mint Mate 21.1 .


When Linux Mint 21 was about to be released, Liam Proven had written and 
published an interesting review of it.


You might be interested in viewing
https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/02/linux_mint_21_vanessa_released/

Unfortunately, the primary shortcoming that I have found, of Linux Mint, 
is that Linux Mint does not provide support through a mailing list, 
although, like at Hogwarts, on the Ubuntu Users mailing list, "Help is 
available to those who ask for it".


Of interest, in the context of your post, and, this mailing list, in the 
above Linux Mint article by Liam Proven, is
"If you are averse to Ubuntu for some reason, or you have a 
well-specified 32-bit machine that you can't affordably upgrade, the 
team's other offering is Linux Mint Debian Edition; we looked at the new 
version 5 in March."


So, I suggest that, if you are considering Ubuntu 22.04, you also 
investigate Linux Mint 21.1 (after reading the article by Liam Proven). 
It was that, or, his previous article about Linux Mint 21, that caused 
me to investigate and subsequently switch to Linux Mint.


And, I hope that the List Administrators of this list, do not mind the 
content of my message; recommending Linux Mint, on a Debian Users 
mailing list - if so, then, I apologise.


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: alternative views of PNG (was Re: Buster => Bullseye: packages keptback)

[davidson]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 gene heskett wrote:

On 3/28/23 06:53, davidson wrote:

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 gene heskett wrote:

On 3/27/23 09:18, Nicolas George wrote:

Dan Ritter (12023-03-27):

[Dan suggests googling ANSI color escapes]

changing 33 to 30 will get you black. ANSI color escapes are on
the web in many places.

[Nicolas touts the benefits of readable terminal colors]

Also, decent terminal emulators let users tweak the colors, and making
sure all main colors are readable on the default background would
probably be a good use of that ability.

[Gene curses poorly contrasting colors in documentary illustrations]
This is a sore point with something I'm fighting with. Chinese electronics 
makers are in the habit of publishing .pngs of their products, with the 
most valuable info one needs to properly hook it up, in a putrid yellow on 
a white background.

[Gene contemplates an alchemical solution]
Would it be practical to put a filter in the path cups put things headed 
to a printer thru, to change just that esc sequence to make those boxes 
and their text content into something more readable.


For an example of such an unhelpful document, find a copy of 
"MKS-Robin-Nano-V3.X-main.zip", unpack it, cd to Image-V3, and look at 
"MKS_Robin_Nano_V3_PIN.png" on-screen or better yet print it.


Like this?

  
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-Robin-Nano-V3.X/main/hardware/Image-V3/MKS_Robin_Nano_V3_PIN.png

I can't help you with the printing.

I installed xli, works great, and is fast, but apparently has no output 
redirection ability. I made several 0 length files trying.


The netpbm package contains, among other things, routines "pngtopnm"
and "pnmtopng" which do produce standard output that can be redirected
to a file:

 $ pngtopnm -gamma 0.45 RobinNano.png | pnmtopng -gamma 0.45 > 
RobinNano_darker.png

Took a while, and a few detours, for me to remember this. But I
believe it will write you a more legible png.


gimp could probably do it, but I get lost in endless menu's.


If I wrote an essay about the undignified interfaces I have no time
for, I would call it "Of Mice and Menus".


imagemagick won't run from the cli, from the pulldowns, its file
selector is not controllable to navigate to the file.  Trying to
wade thru home/src/MKS_nano_v3_main/hardware/Images-V3/ to that file
was a hopeless waste of time.  Any attempt to scroll thru the
presented very busy file list with the mouse wheel was always
interpreted as load the first file.  IOW its file selector is busted
afaiac.


Who needs an essay? You see what I mean already.


libreoffice loaded it, replaced the putrid yellow with black, and
then printed me a copy on photo paper, a copy I can actually read!

Mark it problem solved.


Glad you got it done.

--
People want to waste their time. If you get in the way of that, if you
suggest they should do something else, they will hate you forever.
-- Tim Dillon

Re: debian 11 vs ubuntu 22

[Tom Furie]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 02:44:18PM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> I did mean that 10 years of security updates.
> Most Ubuntu users know this news, i think.

Perhaps they would, though I have my doubts about *most*. Regardless, this
isn't an Ubuntu list so no Ubuntu knowledge should be assumed.

Cheers,
Tom

-- 
Asynchronous inputs are at the root of our race problems.
-- D. Winker and F. Prosser


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Re: debian 11 vs ubuntu 22

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 03:02:12PM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:

[...]

> Thank you for kind test, tomas!

My pleasure.

> Also i like GNU bash very much, indeed.

Still, the question remains: what will be the bash version in year 2033?

Cheers
-- 
tomás


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Re: debian 11 vs ubuntu 22

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

 writes:

> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:05:28AM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
>> cor...@free.fr writes:
>> 
>> > Dear list,
>> >
>> > Though I have been using debian 11 for long days, I want to give a try
>> > on ubuntu 22.04.
>> > Do you know what's the main difference for these two systems on
>> > dev/ops environment?
>> 
>> I have experience both Ubuntu and Debian. Google cloud vm is running
>> Ubuntu 18.04 LTS (+ESM). Then my desktop is Debian 11 under Chromebook.
>> 
>> Ubuntu's advantage is 10 years.
>
> Aha. Just a random test (Debian Bullseye here, so not the newest):
>
>   tomas@trotzki:~$ bash --version
>   GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
>   Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>   License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 
> 
>
>   This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it.
>   There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
>
> This page says that bash 5.1 is 2020-12-07. So Ubuntu 22.10 would be
> from... 2030? Operating system from the future! Must be the Flatpaks
> or how they are called.
>
> Cheers
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash_(Unix_shell)

Thank you for kind test, tomas!

Also i like GNU bash very much, indeed.

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//