Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Dave McFadden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If MS is successful at 'embracing and extending' Java, then HTML, TCP/IP and the OSS world will soon feel the suffocating arms of MS wrapped around them. Hey, don't forget some people even managed to decode SMB for NT in the SAMBA project. If MS really managed to decommoditize open standards - don't you think there are enough developers which are able to copy these new properitary protocols? And when MS makes first tries in this direction and when they see, the OSS comunity will just fake what they are developing, i'm not sure if MS will continue on this way. -- Until the next mail..., Stefan.
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Stefan Nobis wrote: Dave McFadden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If MS is successful at 'embracing and extending' Java, then HTML, TCP/IP and the OSS world will soon feel the suffocating arms of MS wrapped around them. How does HTML and TCP/IP depends on Java? Java will only be relevant to us when good GPLd virtual machines, classes, JITs *and* compilers are available; but never HTML, TCP/IP will depend on it. Hey, don't forget some people even managed to decode SMB for NT in the SAMBA project. If MS really managed to decommoditize open standards - don't you think there are enough developers which are able to copy these new properitary protocols? And when MS makes first tries in this direction and when they see, the OSS comunity will just fake what they are developing, i'm not sure if MS will continue on this way. The problem with efforts like Samba and Wine is that they are necessary evils. They are necessary because so much users depend on M$ clients, we have to support them; and M$ wants a protocol lock-in, so it won't provide good NFS clients or POSIX layers on Windows. We have then to provide the compatibility. But to provide M$ protocols we dedicate efforts which we would rather use in open standards, like a good NFS v3 implementation, NIS+ and X.500/LDAP. If it was possible to M$ to make the world dependent on the latest version of its incompatible, proprietary protocols, the free s/w community efforts on M$-compatible implementations would be always playing catch-up, never able to present a finished, well-polished tool. -- Leandro Guimaraens Faria Corcete Dutra Amdocs Brasil Ltda
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:48:31AM -0500, John Forest wrote: While all this cloak and dagger stuff makes for good entertainment, I believe the following link sums up my feeling on this a lot better then I could. http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19981105.html He makes the point that IBM developed Token Ring to decommodize Ethernet. That may be true, but Token Ring was a better system than Ethernet. As MCA is/was better than ISA. Both of these lost out because they required licensing. Is there any sign that Microsoft's protocols are actually better than the open equivalents? Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3TYD [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
At 11:46 PM 11/7/98 +1100, Hamish Moffat wisely observed: He makes the point that IBM developed Token Ring to decommodize Ethernet. That may be true, but Token Ring was a better system than Ethernet. As MCA is/was better than ISA. Both of these lost out because they required licensing. Is there any sign that Microsoft's protocols are actually better than the open equivalents? The ongoing story of Java, 'embraced and extended' by Microsoft may be the best sign of how their next de-commodization project will go. The author of the Pulpit web page, referred to earlier in this thread, details how MS Java extensions had insidious effects on applications written inside the standard. IMHO, the typical personal home page writer does not care as much about adherence to a standard as getting the neatest effects. If 'HTML with MS extensions' has animated 3-D GIFs, _and_ if standard HTML GIFs suddenly take on a strange spatial separation of red and blue, _and_ if the casual home page writer thinks, 'what the heck, 99% of my visitors are on Windows anyway,' then the commodity of the standard begins to be ignored in favor of the propietary de-facto standard. If MS is successful at 'embracing and extending' Java, then HTML, TCP/IP and the OSS world will soon feel the suffocating arms of MS wrapped around them. mctech In the history of great ideas and great innovations, there is not a single accountant in the list.
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Richard E. Hawkins Esq. said chuck asked, Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? Is the Wall Street Journal a good enough source? :) Tuesday morning's Let me ask this: Has the WSJ ever had to print a retraction? Someone much wiser than me said something once about beleiving what we read... WSJ had an article and summary about it. OK, I **BELIEVE**!!! (Well, sorta...) rick Chuck -- Chuck Stickelman, Owner E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Practical Network DesignVoice: +1-419-529-3841 9 Chambers Road FAX:+1-419-529-3625 Mansfield, OH 44906-1301 USA
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 09:28:45AM -0200, Vera Lucia Mazzocchi wrote: Hi, I was thinking if this document wasn't released purposely, that is, let them know only what we want they know and let's see what they think about. Seems to me that M$ might be playing with us, releasing such document, or allowing somebody to have access and releasing it. Doesn't this sound to ease? To have access to a confidential document from M$ exactly about OSS? I have some doubts ... just thinking... I don't think I doubt its authenticity or sincerity, but my guess is the author of the memo is not a major M$ player. His personnal home page is linked off the Linux Weekly News site (http://lwn.net). This leak comes curious close to the time where BG is trying to convince the court in the anti-trust case against him, that M$ is not the only player, that there alternatives out there. He needs Linux to be present and to appear to the court to be a major threat to 'Doze. Could work in their favour. On the other hand, if it creates negative publicity and heat in the court, it would be easy to distance themselves from it as being the mere enthusiastic meanderings of a junior underling and not official corporate policy nor practice. Have a look at his site. He doesn't come across as a big corporate savvy suit. Ta, Gerald Crimp
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 05:02:43PM +, Thomas Lakofski wrote: On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? It was confirmed by MS. See slashdot.org somewhere... And the Wall Street Journal of Tues., page B4. Gerald
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On 6 Nov 1998, Martin Bialasinski wrote: : : A == AJT60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : : A On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Martin Bialasinski wrote: : : M$ had confirmed, that this document is a M$ memo. See slashdot for : the pointer. : : A Also, it's unlikely that this was deliberatly leaked by microsoft : A (IMHO), because it's not exactly good publicity for them. Far more PR : : I have not finished the Halloween II document, but the key quotes : alone make me think that *this* one was leaked by M$ because of the : DOJ case to show that there is immense competition and M$ doesn't have : a monopol. This is an excellent point ... I hadn't thought about it in those terms. I still find your scenario doubtful, but not impossible ... : This one is so positiv, if managers would read it, they would kick NT : at once. So? OS/2 Warp Server and Novell have at times been compared most favorably to NT (read, they kicked NT's butt) and people still flocked to NT :) Never assume that people, especially management, are rational. -- Nathan Norman MidcoNet 410 South Phillips Avenue Sioux Falls, SD mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.midco.net finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP Key: (0xA33B86E9)
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 12:25:27PM +1300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, it's unlikely that this was deliberatly leaked by microsoft (IMHO), because it's not exactly good publicity for them. Far more PR damage is possible because of (admittedly somewhat backhanded) admissions of how well the Free Software community is doing and the subtefuge they are planning to combat it than any gain they could get from seeing our relations to it. Rememeber it's not only Free Software enthusiasts and microsoft haters who will be reading it. Ah, but they were SO quick to confirm that it was an official memo with SO little effort put into trying to downplay its significance and distance themselves from what seems to be damaging. I think they could be very well playing this. Gerald Crimp
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
NEN == Nathan E Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: NEN Never assume that people, especially management, are rational. Well, I am studying economics. I hope me and others can turn this around sometime in the future :-) This semester, I have lectures in decision theory. On base of rational analysis, Linux should be much more present in business already, but I guess the current situation is a typical textbook case for the economic psychology. Fsck, I somehow have to get around a certain course in CS. It is a analysis of M$. The base is a book written by a M$ employ, so it is full of innovative cooperation, envisioned leadership of Gates, great organisation form at M$, customer orientated softwaredevelopement and such shit. I think I gonna have to blech. I am somewhat worried about my grade for this course. I certainly will turn this around in why is M$ that successfull despite their products low quality. Ciao, Martin
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Hello, rick wrote: chuck asked, Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this ... There's enough in there contrary to the ms party line that it's quite clear that it's confidential. Just because it's confidential doesn't mean it wasn't leaked intentionally... Say with a view of getting some feedback on their analysis from us. Perhaps unlikely, but possible. Hmm, maybe the bit about FUD was specifically aimed at us? Jiri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Hello, George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jiri Baum wrote: ... [extra level of indenting still Jiri] While this appears at first sight to be a classic play out of the Microsoft handbook, there is a subtle but very important distinction. By releasing the source code, the program is ... But Microsoft must, at all costs, prevent any extention or modification by the user that results in any additional utility without additional income to Microsoft. Oops - what I meant was that this should be a correction to the explanation of OSS in the memo. Ie, what they are up against. I wasn't expecting MS to turn around and say 'here's the code'. They might not also want to reveal code that detects competing products and sabotages them or gives misleading error messages. *Misleading* error messages? I can't remember the last time I saw one... Most of them seem to be content-free. (Does a misleading config option count? The other day I turned off 'enable mobile device connection', and it grabbed the port anyway. Of course, the other program didn't say what the problem is, just 'unable to communicate'.) their developers are payroll, Open Source developers are, in most cases, not. Probably doesn't make that much of a difference - if their software was the best, people would be willing to pay extra for it. Jiri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on why MS is in trouble from OpenSource OSes like Linux
On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 12:09:54PM +0100, Roberto Ripio wrote: El Wed, 04 Nov 1998, Chad A. Adlawan escribió: http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html Very interesting. I can't believe they describe Gimp 1.0 as Paintbrush. At least they weren't stupid enough to say nasty things about Perl, given that they distribute a Windows version with the NT 4 resource kit. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3TYD [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:14:47AM +, Jiri Baum wrote: Just because it's confidential doesn't mean it wasn't leaked intentionally... Say with a view of getting some feedback on their analysis from us. Perhaps unlikely, but possible. Indeed. The memo mentions that they have list archives for Mozilla; would anyone with access to murphy care to comment on whether there are (m)any Microsoft addresses subscribed to Debian lists? Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3TYD [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Hi, While all this cloak and dagger stuff makes for good entertainment, I believe the following link sums up my feeling on this a lot better then I could. http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19981105.html Got that from http://slashdot.org John.
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Hello, Roberto Ripio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | El Wed, 04 Nov 1998, Chad A. Adlawan escribi¢: ... | This is an excellent doc that was leaked out of MS on the future | issue of Open Source OSes like Linux, etc. The hosting WWW site ... | As published, the document is edited by Eric S. Raymond, who has | added very interesting comments. As has been pointed previously by | other list members (thanks to them!) it can also be reached at | http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html . I've read the document last night, and I thought it hovered somewhat uncertainly between Microsoft-bashing and traditional Internet giving-kudos-where-kudos-are-due, between treating Microsoft as the enemy and considering it a member of the comunity. Compare, for instance, This is an interestingly arrogant comment. vs Wow. This is an insight I never had. Hmm, here's a thought: how about re-doing the comments in the giving kudos and constructive criticism style, and sending it to MS? That'd confuse 'em. Say like this: --c-- This is a classic play out of the Microsoft handbook. -- While this appears at first sight to be a classic play out of the Microsoft handbook, there is a subtle but very important distinction. By releasing the source code, the program is immediately useful to a much wider audience than a binary-only distribution could be, due to the ability of the users to extend or modify it according to their immediate requirements. -- (OK, so it's my first try at this.) I don't think it could do any harm, because they can understand ESR's comments just as well as we can anyway. There's no call to be nasty. Does that make sense? Jiri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Hi, I was thinking if this document wasn't released purposely, that is, let them know only what we want they know and let's see what they think about. Seems to me that M$ might be playing with us, releasing such document, or allowing somebody to have access and releasing it. Doesn't this sound to ease? To have access to a confidential document from M$ exactly about OSS? I have some doubts ... just thinking... []s, Mario O.de Menezes | Many are the plans in a man's heart, but IPEN-CNEN/SP | is the Lord's purpose that prevails Prov. 19.21
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
Vera Lucia Mazzocchi said Hi, I was thinking if this document wasn't released purposely, that is, let them know only what we want they know and let's see what they think about. Seems to me that M$ might be playing with us, releasing such document, or allowing somebody to have access and releasing it. Doesn't this sound to ease? To have access to a confidential document from M$ exactly about OSS? I have some doubts ... just thinking... Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? []s, Mario O.de Menezes | Many are the plans in a man's heart, but IPEN-CNEN/SP | is the Lord's purpose that prevails Prov. 19.21 Chuck -- Chuck Stickelman, Owner E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Practical Network DesignVoice: +1-419-529-3841 9 Chambers Road FAX:+1-419-529-3625 Mansfield, OH 44906-1301 USA
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? It was confirmed by MS. See slashdot.org somewhere... -TL .. please forgive my abrupt ending hre - but my conection is xtrememleyyhiclmelyey BAD hiccuppy etc must sign off -
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
chuck asked, Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? Is the Wall Street Journal a good enough source? :) Tuesday morning's WSJ had an article and summary about it. And in a document for public consumption, there would be no discussion about using FUD as a strategy (he concludes it wouldn't be effective against open source). There's enough in there contrary to the ms party line that it's quite clear that it's confidential. rick --
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
s == stick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: s Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this s has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or s not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? M$ had confirmed, that this document is a M$ memo. See slashdot for the pointer. Ciao, Martin
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on
On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Martin Bialasinski wrote: s == stick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: s Me too! I'm usually a very cautious person...How do we *know* that this s has even originated from MicroSoft? So there is the issue of whether or s not it's from MS, and if it is it it truly confidential? M$ had confirmed, that this document is a M$ memo. See slashdot for the pointer. Ciao, Martin Also, it's unlikely that this was deliberatly leaked by microsoft (IMHO), because it's not exactly good publicity for them. Far more PR damage is possible because of (admittedly somewhat backhanded) admissions of how well the Free Software community is doing and the subtefuge they are planning to combat it than any gain they could get from seeing our relations to it. Rememeber it's not only Free Software enthusiasts and microsoft haters who will be reading it. Andrew Tarr If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate
[Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on why MS is in trouble from OpenSource OSes like Linux
Hi everyone ! Anyway, i glanced on this one from David Ranch's page and some of you might be intersted in reading it. Cheers, Chad This is an excellent doc that was leaked out of MS on the future issue of Open Source OSes like Linux, etc. The hosting WWW site has already noted that MS might take legal action to take down the page so if its gone by the time you get to it, lemmie know and I'll send you a copy. Its a little long but it reads well and it REALLY tells of Linux's true power. The PEOPLE! http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html --David .. | David A. Ranch - Remote Access/Linux/PC hardware [EMAIL PROTECTED] | !! `- For more detailed info, see http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~dranch -'
Re: [Off Topic] An EXCELLENT Microsoft Confidential document on why MS is in trouble from OpenSource OSes like Linux
El Wed, 04 Nov 1998, Chad A. Adlawan escribió:
Hi everyone ! Anyway, i glanced on this one from David Ranch's page
and some of you might be intersted in reading it.
This is an excellent doc that was leaked out of MS on the future
issue of Open Source OSes like Linux, etc. The hosting WWW site
has already noted that MS might take legal action to take down
the page so if its gone by the time you get to it, lemmie know
and I'll send you a copy.
Its a little long but it reads well and it REALLY tells of
Linux's true power. The PEOPLE!
http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html
--David
..
|| David A. Ranch - Remote Access/Linux/PC hardware [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
As published, the document is edited by Eric S. Raymond, who has added very
interesting comments. As has been pointed previously by other list members
(thanks to them!) it can also be reached at
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html .
I would like to highlight the paragraphs that i felt more worrying, or, in
ESR words, more sinister. ESR comments follows indented.
Linux can win as long as services / protocols are commodities
{ We sense a theme developing here...
To put it slightly differently: Linux can win if services are open
and protocols are simple, transparent. Microsoft can only win
if services are closed and protocols are complex, opaque.
To put it even more bluntly: commodity services and protocols are
good things for customers; they promote competition and choice.
Therefore, for Microsoft to win, the customer must lose.
OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications
because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By
extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS
projects entry into the market.
{ In other words, open protocols must be locked up and the IETF
crushed in order to ``de-commoditize protocols applications''
and stop open-source software.
Once again, open-source advocates' best response is to point out
to customers that when things are ``de-commoditized'', vendors
gain and customers lose. }
--
It is also noted that one of the strategies of MS will be the monitoring of
linux related lists and newsgroups, so I would like to take avail myself
of this opportunity to send a salutation to a linux-hacker friend currently at
MS headquarters ;-)
Roberto Ripio
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
