Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
John Hasler writes: > lee wrote: >> Mike McGinn writes: >> As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the >> ones doing the work get to make the decisions. > > lee wrote: >> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users >> are the priority. > > It says users are the priority. It doesn't say they are in charge. It > means that the developers are to consider the users when making > decisions. I've been wondering what Debian proposes or has in place to figure out what the needs of the users are. And perhaps someone can explain in which way the users were considered when the decision was made that systemd shall become the default init system for Debian. Once that has been explained, the users can decide whether they have been sufficiently considered or not in this decision. What is Debian proposing or what does it have in place to become aware of such decision of the users so that Debian can act accordingly? What are the users supposed to do when they feel that they haven't sufficiently been considered? Or do you mean to say that allowing the users to decide whether they have been sufficiently considered or not would put them in charge too much? OTOH, how can the users be the priority when they aren't in charge? And being in charge means responsibility in the first place. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87tx3x539f@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Nate Bargmann writes: > * On 2014 21 Sep 15:10 -0500, lee wrote: >> Mike McGinn writes: >> >> > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the >> > ones doing the work get to make the decisions. >> >> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users >> are the priority. > > I fear that down that path lies madness. Which group of users takes > precedence? Is it those who configure and maintain servers, those who > want to use Debian as a desktop, those interested in using Debian as the > basis for embedded systems, some other group? Wouldn't that be all the more reason to modify the social contract? ;) > In these discussions I see these are competing interests which leads > me to think that the divisions are such that these interests may > become mutually exclusive to the point that Debian sub projects > catering to each group will emerge. Already some exist and they may > gain a larger user base. I think that Debian is still doing a really good job to accomodate a great variety of users/use cases. It does so by giving them choices. I might even go so far as to say that after about 20 years of using Debian, choices, versatility and quality are expectations I have, and that other distributions I have more or less experience with are unable to come close. Unfortunately, Debian is on the way of not keeping up with it's standards anymore. As to sub-projects for different applications: I wouldn't want to have to switch to another distribution just because I happen to have an (unforeseen) use case which isn't covered. That really isn't feasible. I also don't want to have to use a multitude of distributions to cover all kinds of use cases I might have. That isn't feasible, either. It would lead to get locked in one way or another, and that's something which is simply not affordable. If you have a very specific use case or environment which never changes, you are also locked in. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4ta3pby@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
lee wrote: > Mike McGinn writes: > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the > ones doing the work get to make the decisions. lee wrote: > Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users > are the priority. It says users are the priority. It doesn't say they are in charge. It means that the developers are to consider the users when making decisions. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4tccylh@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
* On 2014 21 Sep 15:10 -0500, lee wrote: > Mike McGinn writes: > > > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the > > ones doing the work get to make the decisions. > > Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users > are the priority. I fear that down that path lies madness. Which group of users takes precedence? Is it those who configure and maintain servers, those who want to use Debian as a desktop, those interested in using Debian as the basis for embedded systems, some other group? In these discussions I see these are competing interests which leads me to think that the divisions are such that these interests may become mutually exclusive to the point that Debian sub projects catering to each group will emerge. Already some exist and they may gain a larger user base. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140921232748.ge4...@n0nb.us
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 06:11:53PM +0200, lee wrote: > Joel Roth writes: > > > I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for > > those who are concerned about this issue. I know that > > I would subscribe. > > That would make it easier to ignore them. Wouldn't it make more sense > to create a list for people interested in alternatives to systemd? I created a list, modular-deb...@freelists.org. The name suggest the direction of a Debian created of loosely coupled components, an alternative systemd's monolithic approach. You can subscribe by mailing to modular-debian-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the subject. Today's surfing turned up these links: boycott systemd - a good starting point http://boycottsystemd.org/ uselessd - attempting a sane fork of systemd, active project http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ mdev: an alternative to udev http://www.snafu.priv.at/interests/debian/mdev.html - 2012! http://git.busybox.net/busybox/plain/docs/mdev.txt http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2005-December/051272.html http://wildanm.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/mdev-mini-udev-in-busybox/ Cheers, Joel Roth -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140921202947.GA14955@sprite
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Mike McGinn writes: > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the > ones doing the work get to make the decisions. Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users are the priority. Should I make a bug report for this? -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ha01dkx0@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires
Joel Roth writes: > I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for > those who are concerned about this issue. I know that > I would subscribe. That would make it easier to ignore them. Wouldn't it make more sense to create a list for people interested in alternatives to systemd? -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87d2apdkc6@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:02:48PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 9/17/2014 10:48 AM, Slavko wrote: > > Dňa Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:40:40 +0200 B napísal: > >> > >>> If yes, > >>> then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... > >> > >> Alas, poor Slavko ;-) > >> > >> > > > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). > > > > regards > > > > Just not familiar with some of the common phrases used in the English > speaking world. COMMOM? How *dare* you! :) -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140919061658.GE15565@tal
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 14Sep18:1301-0400, David L. Craig wrote: > Ironically, I have been recovering > from some strange Sid upgrade issues involving systemd for > past half day--I'm still uncertain what went south, but I > seem to be back with /sbin/init for now. Unfortunately, > Sid seems to break my toys at the worst times. Sigh... Opened 762146 about this after repeating it in a vm installed from the beta D-I netinstl without network mirror for a minimal dist-upgrade to Sid, in case anyone is interested. -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave_Craig__ "So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe." __--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 14Sep18:1449+0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:06:21AM -0500, John Hasler wrote: > > David L. Craig writes: > > > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs? > > > > No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common. > > The grandparent poster isn't a DD. That is good to learn. Ironically, I have been recovering from some strange Sid upgrade issues involving systemd for past half day--I'm still uncertain what went south, but I seem to be back with /sbin/init for now. Unfortunately, Sid seems to break my toys at the worst times. Sigh... -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave_Craig__ "So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe." __--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 08:06:21AM -0500, John Hasler wrote: > David L. Craig writes: > > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs? > > No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common. The grandparent poster isn't a DD. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140918134944.GA11878@debian
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:15:57 -0400 The Wanderer wrote: [SNIP LOT OF REASONABLE THINGS (from The Wanderer)] I would add one thing to what you said, may be rants are filtered by devs (but that I doubt, intelligent people usually keep the temperature of their projects, even if the thermometer is growing bigger;), but as the rant is spreading among blogs (and even LKML), it'll end up to attract large media reporting. That is a thing, whatever you're doing wrong, you usually wanna avoid, especially when articles are made by skillful and respected people. So, yes, rumbling noise can (and I hope, will) be a very good thing at the end. -- My mother reading the newspaper, an article about a Siamese who just have two heads… All she has to say to me is "Do you think when she hair cut, she pays for one or two?" signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/18/2014 at 12:36 AM, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > On 17/09/14 at 09:17am, John Hasler wrote: > >> Mart van de Wege writes: >>> That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. >> >> And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant >> rants. >> >> Quit ranting, ok? If you don't actually have anything to say >> don't say it. If you do, say it and ignore the ranters. > > Delete key works perfectly and fast here BTW, none of the posters > (spammers) is a debian developer and AFAIK it's not going to be. > > That given, can someone explain what's the use in those debates in > which your decision making power it's less than a pigeon shit on a > coat in the middle of a storm? Noise helps make it clear that there is objection, and can help make it clear the magnitude and/or the extent of that objection; in theory, this can then inform the thinking of the decision-makers, in assessing whether a particular decision (including whether to go back on, or details of how to implement, an earlier decision) is appropriate. Whether the decision-makers care about the existence, much less the magnitude or the extent, of objection to the decisions which have been taken is another question. If they don't, then the noise can potentially help serve a separate purpose, by virtue of being an irritant; if the noise is irritating enough, they may decide it's worth doing things differently to get rid of the objections and thereby get rid of the noise. In other words, "if you don't think X is a problem for you directly, we'll make X a problem for you indirectly by not giving you any peace about it". That latter angle doesn't work very well when the decision-makers in question can simply filter all of the noise out (whether by killfiles or by moderation or similar), of course, and even less well when they aren't in a position to see it in the first place - which they mostly aren't, here, AFAICT. But it is something which may be part of the reasoning (if you can call it that) behind deciding to engage in these "debates". Plus, of course, these discussions enable those who have objections to be aware of the existence of others out there who may agree with them, to share resources with those others (and with anyone interested who may not engage in the discussions), and potentially to band together in pursuit of alternatives - whether creating new ones, or simply finding practical ways to implement and use ones which already exist. Which can hardly be a bad thing, can it? - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUGtsNAAoJEASpNY00KDJreHwP/Ak4YmyPazZ8dNWNMsplxAsf GKXrpdOFM2fCBgW71b50jLajr44VGiIxVMQ/wYIDLYcuWbqgh/yL52an9COzmjBu foquMS8e19Fd+Rg7RHEjCw07SqgIuGOdHzGSw00U5vLARZoDZnL+Go2r2n69lleX H/oJtcaPBhbZuJDuGdoPQDjbl/42FNg/T8jx+spFrRIyoCIWlSGLlQ7dMcA9P50p UhS5VyF7cBqeO2+FNzVX0Rs2hTjt7VuaFjgpC4U5MFAfHm61gsIR9OjmHrs9meLK D8cI68SwYJEd+tSqWjVr+ePBU4ZtnmTZIMajoydsO5waDs4Z2gIHLe2NUehVDCT1 Qz564nuSVwUqbNwanE0JLZkkgTLuGbpWxqKMnagX5+wElUn3PxXZ3HRlhb22HzNF 7cESRSUFlzk//azXfHzQUNGJZTrqR0D0ldeF0/Nm49b4UV72f5Bbkb2H0ksv1jxM hiJzWliNhFTyLpf8Gyft3Ed0AgsM9lmZNe+NUYk30WzRcAmEP+DYLqZ69D7DD3rb M8Vrgcpjg2z7wSJFznKbwSMf1CkjX43ZZ+Fm50fcG6m4dgv7lJiwnwt97SobC54j 2zKCpHBCVziJIwEgN3fdCBhYMBTx5GYT2r8ZHgjyyipKwu6FDevCjs4mdsZwPbqX c70pFPIzqyZ+hu4vE+cN =ctYM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541adb0d.2070...@fastmail.fm
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
David L. Craig writes: > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs? No, but the attitude is, unfortunately, quite common. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87lhphgjsi@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 18/09/14 at 03:34am, David L. Craig wrote: > On 14Sep18:0636+0200, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > > > Delete key works perfectly and fast here BTW, none of the posters > > (spammers) > > is a debian developer and AFAIK it's not going to be. > > > > That given, can someone explain what's the use in those debates in which > > your decision > > making power it's less than a pigeon shit on a coat in the middle of a > > storm? > > > > Kind regards > > Is this viewpoint typical of DDs? You just dissed Linus Tolvalds > among many, many others, without whom you wouldn't have anything to > package. I humbly submit you need to search your conscience if > you can find it. You probably think you are a wise guy because you wrote "Linus Torvalds" in a post without any reason, but you are not, you are just proving your ignorance. Few are just dumping their egos on many threads about this systemd thing just like debian was at their own service, but fortunately it is not. They simply should switch to another distro and shut up instead of using the list like "their ego disposal". -- « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140918091517.ga4...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Thursday 18 September 2014 08:34:49 David L. Craig wrote: > You just dissed Linus Tolvalds > among many, many others Where and when?? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409180857.47779.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 14Sep18:0636+0200, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > Delete key works perfectly and fast here BTW, none of the posters (spammers) > is a debian developer and AFAIK it's not going to be. > > That given, can someone explain what's the use in those debates in which your > decision > making power it's less than a pigeon shit on a coat in the middle of a storm? > > Kind regards Is this viewpoint typical of DDs? You just dissed Linus Tolvalds among many, many others, without whom you wouldn't have anything to package. I humbly submit you need to search your conscience if you can find it. Kind regards -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave_Craig__ "So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe." __--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 17/09/14 at 09:17am, John Hasler wrote: > Mart van de Wege writes: > > That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. > > And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant rants. > > Quit ranting, ok? If you don't actually have anything to say don't say > it. If you do, say it and ignore the ranters. Delete key works perfectly and fast here BTW, none of the posters (spammers) is a debian developer and AFAIK it's not going to be. That given, can someone explain what's the use in those debates in which your decision making power it's less than a pigeon shit on a coat in the middle of a storm? Kind regards -- « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140918043652.ga3...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
John Hasler writes: > Mart van de Wege writes: >> That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. > > And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant rants. > > Quit ranting, ok? If you don't actually have anything to say don't say > it. If you do, say it and ignore the ranters. Funny. This is my first post in d-u in years. And stop changing the subject. It is the anti-systemd crowd who point at their repetitive rants as if they were proof of massive popular support. Since the pro-systemd crowd hasn't used that argument yet (in fact, they use the reverse) their numbers are *irrelevant*. Stop trying to tell people what to think. -- "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes." --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/86zjdxc3g2@gaheris.avalon.lan
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
FREELOADERS! Am 17.09.2014 um 19:14 schrieb Slavko: Ahoj, Dňa Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:38:46 +0200 B napísal: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:48:39 +0200 Slavko wrote: Alas, poor Slavko ;-) I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). Oh, sorry. I was referring to a line from Shakespeare into Hamlet (when he grabs a skull and talk to him: 'alas, poor Yorick…') No problem ;) Now i understand regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/blu436-smtp25520ba18a7b482f8ba4043be...@phx.gbl
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Ahoj, Dňa Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:38:46 +0200 B napísal: > On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:48:39 +0200 > Slavko wrote: > > > > Alas, poor Slavko ;-) > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). > > Oh, sorry. > > I was referring to a line from Shakespeare into Hamlet > (when he grabs a skull and talk to him: 'alas, poor Yorick…') No problem ;) Now i understand regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 9/17/2014 10:48 AM, Slavko wrote: > Ahoj, > > Dňa Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:40:40 +0200 B napísal: > >> On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:17:19 +0200 >> Slavko wrote: >> >>> If yes, >>> then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... >> >> Alas, poor Slavko ;-) >> >> > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). > > regards > Just not familiar with some of the common phrases used in the English speaking world. Shakespeare's "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark", Act V, Scent 1 " Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio,..." (often misquoted as "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him well.") A reference to your "...state of Denmark" comment :) Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5419b0a8.7070...@attglobal.net
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:48:39 +0200 Slavko wrote: > > Alas, poor Slavko ;-) > > > > > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). Oh, sorry. I was referring to a line from Shakespeare into Hamlet (when he grabs a skull and talk to him: 'alas, poor Yorick…') -- I just watched two hours of film without subs Kuro: porn doesn't count signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Wednesday 17 September 2014 15:48:39 Slavko wrote: > Ahoj, > > Dňa Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:40:40 +0200 B napísal: > > On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:17:19 +0200 > > > > Slavko wrote: > > > If yes, > > > then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... > > > > Alas, poor Slavko ;-) > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). He is "quoting" from Shakespeare's Hamlet: "Alas, poor Yorrick". The previous quotation was from that play. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409171637.04967.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/17/2014 at 10:17 AM, John Hasler wrote: > Mart van de Wege writes: > >> That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. > > And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant > rants. > > Quit ranting, ok? If you don't actually have anything to say > don't say it. If you do, say it and ignore the ranters. Speaking as someone who might once have been (and indeed still sometimes might potentially be) classified as one of the ranters, this is what I'm now doing. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUGakIAAoJEASpNY00KDJr3PcP/jJ0mTudOWm08d/39ZbO1/KK yzUIuONksJnLtF3g5BhmCMwKH7frxydLHSOdsIbsyunr2egpuJhBQQ2lq2496rY+ F8Ss4WKAWUrD44pQilVj6wmMatyUWmMna33LTX5f+9Ud7LE4qXCWQTMwh52xoxKG Ni7FEzp1iYkmfQ3KlyOxta5dgXgPhHW7QJfSLmyBzJaOHDPPGzMO8cjxoMXz8B5I j0+3vR0uAgvQZQMqh5exkTU+4NyuBBmda9hlQ/ygiKz90NM+Qy3RuQkTIFVbQUaM Sx+UqsWJbpHhEv8dzGRVr453KAqOFDlIR4J5Yz0zintzvXDkExzHUT3CBze/MAWH Bqws8MlpSpJtqRrid1K8kNJPJcKzPdVsQXQtoi34norSCL15ECQ0GOYmE7LX2ix6 amdW4o1d4C3mih1w3UYCUVR7r5suEaTJecZSpACz+z+EnONpUamK/BVgZ0mFQscu KgkzgmNj519dYUw2JgYFL17VGhRDZ88ni6CLwfFZogJnlKsFUvWP/W9Ope6Z1vwT yuly3T0HjUMntGKHSSEoC1l6nc+OtymDA3StVmzrbbrYOV6twP/0XvUqKOESDCTU aiJOs1T2HYZnyJsQ0f038AMH0zbfLwPGuYl8hpKCvmACjPpKHJVZYr+q42UPIgQt 4suIzlK6F2C7Z5VhCffk =qdQW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5419a908.9050...@fastmail.fm
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Ahoj, Dňa Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:40:40 +0200 B napísal: > On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:17:19 +0200 > Slavko wrote: > > > If yes, > > then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... > > Alas, poor Slavko ;-) > > I am sorry, i don't understand your reply (my poor English). regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Mart van de Wege writes: > That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. And I see the same names coming up in the anti anti systemd rant rants. Quit ranting, ok? If you don't actually have anything to say don't say it. If you do, say it and ignore the ranters. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/877g12ib6l@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Steve Litt writes: > > Like I said to Lisi, every time you shush one of us, three more pop up. That's funny, because I keep seeing the same names coming up. Enough that I am considering downscoring 2 or 3 users and all replies to them, regardless of subject, because it would kill 90% of the same systemd rant over and over again. -- "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes." --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8638bqe7ed@gaheris.avalon.lan
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Mike McGinn wrote: On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 12:17:19 Slavko wrote: Ahoj, Dňa Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:24:07 -0400 Steve Litt napísal: On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 Don Armstrong wrote: Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this mailing list. Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an interesting discussion for developers. Sure, the developers discussion is OT here. But, please, what when these things (developers decisions) affects the users? Now it seems, that the users can here post only: "The DD are best and their choices are the best" and anything critic is OT here. If yes, then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... regards Every developer decision affects the users. As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the ones doing the work get to make the decisions. If you want to be in on the decisions, pick an orphaned package. I have been Treasurer of my congregation for six years and will stand for President next year. I hear lots of complaints from people who are unwilling to do any work to make the organization work. To all I say: "Either help or get out of the way." Red Hat is shipping systemd with RH 7. If one were to google "redhat systemd" the RH systemd documentation can be found. I spent some time reading this last night. I found some of the features compelling. Since Red Hat focuses on reliability over all else, I really doubt that systemd will destroy your system. Red Hat is a very different system than Debian, in many ways - a lot of which I respect, some of which I don't, which is why I run Debian on our servers. Effectively, systemd is one more step toward turning Debian (and other distros) into Red Hat Linux. If you want Red Hat, and don't want to pay for it, CentOS and Fedora are both respectable choices. Turning Debian and other distros into Red Had is not, IMHO a good thing. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541870e0.3000...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 12:17:19 Slavko wrote: > Ahoj, > > Dňa Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:24:07 -0400 Steve Litt > > napísal: > > On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 > > > > Don Armstrong wrote: > > > Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this > > > mailing list. > > > > Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable > > dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an > > interesting discussion for developers. > > Sure, the developers discussion is OT here. But, please, what when > these things (developers decisions) affects the users? > > Now it seems, that the users can here post only: "The DD are best and > their choices are the best" and anything critic is OT here. If yes, then > "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... > > regards Every developer decision affects the users. As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the ones doing the work get to make the decisions. If you want to be in on the decisions, pick an orphaned package. I have been Treasurer of my congregation for six years and will stand for President next year. I hear lots of complaints from people who are unwilling to do any work to make the organization work. To all I say: "Either help or get out of the way." Red Hat is shipping systemd with RH 7. If one were to google "redhat systemd" the RH systemd documentation can be found. I spent some time reading this last night. I found some of the features compelling. Since Red Hat focuses on reliability over all else, I really doubt that systemd will destroy your system. Linux will survive and perhaps thrive with or without you. Best to all, Mike McGinn -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Be happy that brainfarts don't smell. No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409161256.29490.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:17:19 +0200 Slavko wrote: > If yes, > then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... Alas, poor Slavko ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140916184040.256199f9@msi.defcon1
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Ahoj, Dňa Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:24:07 -0400 Steve Litt napísal: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 > Don Armstrong wrote: > > > > Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this > > mailing list. > > Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable > dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an > interesting discussion for developers. Sure, the developers discussion is OT here. But, please, what when these things (developers decisions) affects the users? Now it seems, that the users can here post only: "The DD are best and their choices are the best" and anything critic is OT here. If yes, then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" ... regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 08:24:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 > Don Armstrong wrote: > > > > Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this > > mailing list. > > Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable > dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an > interesting discussion for developers. > > I love these guys who summarily declare something, affecting everyday > users, offtopic on this mailing list. You're buggering things up for people who are actually looking for support! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140916135845.GJ25730@tal
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 08:24:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an interesting discussion for developers. ISTM that such threads - with people who are actually using systemd asking for help with actual problem using systemd - are easiest spotted because Michael Beibl or Tollef contribute a useful answer. But such threads seem to be less than 1 in 10 of the systemd threads on this list, the remainder decidedly not fitting into the above categorisation. That might better be framed as "1 in 10 POSTS in systemd threads" As far as I can tell, most systemd related thread start out with either: a. a question about systemd impact, or, b. a report of a problem or impact caused by systemd c. a question about how to avoid running systemd After, maybe a couple of direct responses, each thread then degenerates into c. general "discussion" of systemd, it's developers, etc. And then degenerates further, into d. arguments about whether systemd is a legitimate topic on this list. a., b., and c. are completely within scope - real user issues w/ Debian. Personally, I think c. is a topic of legitimate interest and relevance to many of us on this list. Others seem to disagree. Again, personally, I think d. is a waste of all of our time and I wish those who kept complaining would just shut up and learn to use their delete keys. I'll also point out that this seems to be the pattern with many topics besides systemd. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54183ab0.9000...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
2014/09/16 16:57 "Bret Busby" : > > On 16/09/2014, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > > > > > > « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » > > Eh, wot? > > I think that tellus is a brand of vacuum cleaner (is this something to > do with cleaning some threads of messages off the list :) ? ). > > pede - well that sounds like a root of pedestrian. > > pulsanda - that reminds me of a package named pulse audio, which is to > do with sound, and, thence, with noise. > > Does that mean that if the list is not cleaned up of the extraneous > noise, it slows to a walk? Courtesy of translate.google.com -- Now is the time to drink, now is the time to roam the face of the earth.
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 08:24:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable > dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an > interesting discussion for developers. ISTM that such threads - with people who are actually using systemd asking for help with actual problem using systemd - are easiest spotted because Michael Beibl or Tollef contribute a useful answer. But such threads seem to be less than 1 in 10 of the systemd threads on this list, the remainder decidedly not fitting into the above categorisation. > I love these guys who summarily declare something, affecting everyday > users, offtopic on this mailing list. "these guys" would be the list masters in this case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140916092832.ga2...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 16/09/14 at 03:39pm, Bret Busby wrote: > On 16/09/2014, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > > > > > > « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » > > Eh, wot? > > I think that tellus is a brand of vacuum cleaner (is this something to > do with cleaning some threads of messages off the list :) ? ). > > pede - well that sounds like a root of pedestrian. > > pulsanda - that reminds me of a package named pulse audio, which is to > do with sound, and, thence, with noise. > > Does that mean that if the list is not cleaned up of the extraneous > noise, it slows to a walk? nope, it's a pray: it means that you all should end up kicking each other a OT list instead of breaking every user balls on this one ;-) with kind regards, of course -- « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140916080844.ga15...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 16/09/2014, Raffaele Morelli wrote: > « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » Eh, wot? I think that tellus is a brand of vacuum cleaner (is this something to do with cleaning some threads of messages off the list :) ? ). pede - well that sounds like a root of pedestrian. pulsanda - that reminds me of a package named pulse audio, which is to do with sound, and, thence, with noise. Does that mean that if the list is not cleaned up of the extraneous noise, it slows to a walk? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CACX6j8Pf2cE5xNPX0+ogz-NurHzn=7hbj5ajnty-gqpjx-c...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On 15/09/14 at 02:15pm, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Joel Roth wrote: > > I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for those who > > are concerned about this issue. I know that I would subscribe. > > Please create one and subscribe. It's trivial to create mailing lists on > lists.alioth.debian.org, or you can use non-Debian resources. Let me > know when you've done so, and I'll be happy to point anyone who > continues to post to this mailing list about systemd there. > > > I can also sympathize with those who don't want this list dominated by > > a flame war. > > Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this > mailing list. God (or whatever of your choice) bless you -- « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140916061157.gb2...@gmail.com
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:15:59 -0700 Don Armstrong wrote: > Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this > mailing list. Precisely. Bugs and user difficulties produced by innumerable dependencies have nothing to do with Debian-Users, it's merely an interesting discussion for developers. I love these guys who summarily declare something, affecting everyday users, offtopic on this mailing list. Like I said to Lisi, every time you shush one of us, three more pop up. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140915202407.0d496...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Joel Roth wrote: > I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for those who > are concerned about this issue. I know that I would subscribe. Please create one and subscribe. It's trivial to create mailing lists on lists.alioth.debian.org, or you can use non-Debian resources. Let me know when you've done so, and I'll be happy to point anyone who continues to post to this mailing list about systemd there. > I can also sympathize with those who don't want this list dominated by > a flame war. Yes, please. The pro/anti systemd discussion isn't on topic for this mailing list. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com One day I put instant coffee in my microwave oven and almost went back in time. -- Steven Wright -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140915211559.gh8...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires
gvfs)) Reply-To: Joel Roth In-Reply-To: <5416e94a.8070...@attglobal.net> Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 9/15/2014 3:27 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > > On Sunday 14 September 2014 19:42:40 Steve Litt wrote: > >> Every time you tell one of us to keep silent, three more of us speak > >> up. I don't know whether we're a minority, but if you and your cohorts > >> keep shushing us, we just might be the majority pretty soon. > > > > I wasn't telling anyone to keep silent!! You are so fixated in your > > beliefs > > that you don't bother with facts any longer! > > > > I have asked you personally to keep silent because you do repeat and repeat > > and repeat and repeat But I haven't been successful have I? > > > > As you acknowledge, you are part of a minority. Do stop bullying the rest > > of > > us. > > > > Lisi > > > > > > Or, maybe there are a lot of people (like me) who have watched this > discussion with interest, but remained silent. I, too, don't like the > way Debian is taking things with systemd. From a device driver > developer's POV, I don't see any advantages, and see a lot of > disadvantages. Plus, like others, I don't like the attitude of the > systemd developers. > > So far I've seen some good reasons why Debian should not go that way. > But I've seen few technical reasons why this is a good idea. Most of > the comments by supporters are along the lines of "this is a good thing" > (with no reasons), "It's going to happen so get used to it", or just > plain "shut up already!". > > I've also read all of the past discussions referenced in this and other > discussions. All they have done is make me even more leery of systemd. > > I would love to hear some good technical reasons why this is a good idea. I find it interesting that the decision to adopt systemd as Debian's default init system was made by the technical committee, whereas some of the large issues that I think *should* influence the decision are related to the attitude and behavior of the systemd developers. I just re-reviewed the LKML thread where Linus criticizes Kay Siever's behavior, and how Lennart responds. I'm no connosieur of the argmentation styles on LKML, but the systemd guys come across as acting like they're our new bosses, and showing none of the humility and accountability I would expect. To me, the non-technical issues raise a huge red flag. I'd prefer not to surrender control of my system to someone I don't trust. For now, I'm running sysvinit and the systemd libraries are available for the few programs I'm using that need them. However, in the long term, I can see how systemd dependencies in the packaging system will gradually reduce user options to configure systems without systemd. I sympathize with those posting to the list with strong opinions and a tone of alarm. IMO, they have legitimate reasons to consider their software ecosystem to be in peril. Perhaps they would like to sway the Debian community at large, or failing that, to sway enough technically skilled people to create a fork of Debian that doesn't depend on systemd. I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for those who are concerned about this issue. I know that I would subscribe. I can also sympathize with those who don't want this list dominated by a flame war. Regards, Joel > Jerry > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5416e94a.8070...@attglobal.net > -- Joel Roth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140915193354.GB18149@sprite
