Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 8:14 AM Marco M.  wrote:
>
> Am 25.10.2023 um 07:25:45 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:
>
> > Is there an RFC number for this already?
>
> ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc8375.html

This is so interesting (to me). I can't believe I missed that RFC...

>From the Abstract:

   This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain
   Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with
   '.home.arpa.' and designates this domain as a special-use domain
   name. 'home.arpa.' is designated for non-unique use in residential
   home networks.  The Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is
   updated to use the 'home.arpa.' domain instead of '.home'.

Notice '.home.arpa.' is a fully qualified domain name (FQDN). FQDN's
end in dot, and the dot denotes the top of the DNS tree.

'home' is not a FQDN. It is not a node from the top of the DNS tree.
It is just a special label.

One of my pet peeves is when someone conflates a hostname with a FQDN.
Systemd does this all the time. Systemd's [unofficial] policy seems to
be mDNS and its gossip is the source of truth for network names. Old
admins will always consider DNS as the single source of truth for
network names, not gossip-based protocols.

Systemd networking probably has W Richard Stevens rolling over in his grave...

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Pocket]

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 25, 2023, at 8:12 AM, Marco M.  wrote:
> 
> Am 25.10.2023 um 12:17:40 Uhr schrieb Joe:
> 
>>> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:01:18 +
>>> Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I see lots of people in this sub-thread arguing for
>>> cobbled-together, "it works for me for now and if it breaks I'll
>>> just fix it later" style solutions.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Not arguing about anything else, but this situation you describe is
>> how IT works, and will continue to work until it stabilises, maybe a
>> century from now.
> 
> Avoiding mistakes by using it as designed is much better than repairing
> it years later.
> 
Amen

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 25.10.2023 um 07:25:45 Uhr schrieb gene heskett:

> Is there an RFC number for this already?

ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc8375.html

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Marco M.]

Am 25.10.2023 um 12:17:40 Uhr schrieb Joe:

> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:01:18 +
> Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > I see lots of people in this sub-thread arguing for
> > cobbled-together, "it works for me for now and if it breaks I'll
> > just fix it later" style solutions.
> > 
> >  
> 
> Not arguing about anything else, but this situation you describe is
> how IT works, and will continue to work until it stabilises, maybe a
> century from now.

Avoiding mistakes by using it as designed is much better than repairing
it years later.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[gene heskett]

On 10/25/23 05:01, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 25 Oct 2023 07:32 +0200, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco M.):

TLD '.lan' works.  As best I can tell on the web, it doesn't exist.


Is it intended for that?
No?
Then don't use it. It can be used in the future for public domains.


Exactly.

I see lots of people in this sub-thread arguing for cobbled-together,
"it works for me for now and if it breaks I'll just fix it later"
style solutions.

"home.arpa" is _reserved specifically_ for almost exactly the purpose
we're talking about: local (for example residential) use where one
does not want to pay for a domain name and/or does not need globally
unique names.

If you have anyway, or are willing to pay for, a domain name that you
can use for the purpose, great; all that power to you.

But most home users aren't in that situation. For those people,
"home.arpa" is _the official_ answer. It's not something I've made up.
There's an RFC, there's a corresponding domain name reservation, it's
specifically set up so that it won't break for example DNSSEC, and
that RFC is a _PROPOSED STANDARD_ which is pretty much as officially
sanctioned as things get on the public Internet. (I think IPv4 has the
status of STANDARD.)

Just like you shouldn't pick some IP address range at random for your
LAN if you want hosts on that LAN to be able to communicate unimpeded
with hosts on the Internet, you shouldn't randomly pick a domain name.
Using a domain name (or IP address range) which is reserved for
examples and documentation likely won't break anything important, but
it _will_ cause confusion (as evidenced earlier in this thread).

If you go with the domain name home.arpa and an IPv4 subnet sliced out
of one of 192.168.0.0/16, 172.12.0.0/12 or 10.0.0.0/8, you can be
_almost certain_ that nothing will break because of those choices, now
_or_ in the future.

This thread is the first I've heard of home.arpa as a domainname for 
internal lan's. It s/b easy enough to switch my local lan to that since 
only the domainname changes. The alias shouldn't need changed.


Is there an RFC number for this already?


None of the other alternatives I've seen proposed in this thread can
offer anything like such guarantees.


Thank you for this clarificaion.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Joe]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:01:18 +
Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:


> 
> I see lots of people in this sub-thread arguing for cobbled-together,
> "it works for me for now and if it breaks I'll just fix it later"
> style solutions.
> 
>

Not arguing about anything else, but this situation you describe is how
IT works, and will continue to work until it stabilises, maybe a
century from now.

I have web pages on my home intranet written anything up to twenty
years ago. The versions of HTML, PHP, Perl etc that I used in many of
them are long obsolete. To do things right, I ought to go over that code
line by line every year or two, checking current documentation to see
what's deprecated, find out how to workaround it and fix it.

Life's too short. So when I use a page I haven't used for years,
there's a good chance it won't work, and I'll have to fix it then. So
be it.

Scale that up, and it's how the whole of IT works. Inevitably, things
will break, hardware and software won't work on new operating systems,
and so on. We have to live with it. Yes, it's nice to do things exactly
correctly, but they are only exactly correct today. Tomorrow, they may
be deprecated, and eventually removed.

The exact situation you address may be set in stone for all time. Or it
may not: it can be changed on a whim. All we can do is make the best
choice at the time, and even then we have to guess at how much time we
need to spend researching it in order to have a better choice than we
can see now, and whether it's worth doing that when we don't even know
that there is a better choice possible.

-- 
Joe

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 25 Oct 2023 07:32 +0200, from m...@dorfdsl.de (Marco M.):
>> TLD '.lan' works.  As best I can tell on the web, it doesn't exist.  
> 
> Is it intended for that?
> No?
> Then don't use it. It can be used in the future for public domains.

Exactly.

I see lots of people in this sub-thread arguing for cobbled-together,
"it works for me for now and if it breaks I'll just fix it later"
style solutions.

"home.arpa" is _reserved specifically_ for almost exactly the purpose
we're talking about: local (for example residential) use where one
does not want to pay for a domain name and/or does not need globally
unique names.

If you have anyway, or are willing to pay for, a domain name that you
can use for the purpose, great; all that power to you.

But most home users aren't in that situation. For those people,
"home.arpa" is _the official_ answer. It's not something I've made up.
There's an RFC, there's a corresponding domain name reservation, it's
specifically set up so that it won't break for example DNSSEC, and
that RFC is a _PROPOSED STANDARD_ which is pretty much as officially
sanctioned as things get on the public Internet. (I think IPv4 has the
status of STANDARD.)

Just like you shouldn't pick some IP address range at random for your
LAN if you want hosts on that LAN to be able to communicate unimpeded
with hosts on the Internet, you shouldn't randomly pick a domain name.
Using a domain name (or IP address range) which is reserved for
examples and documentation likely won't break anything important, but
it _will_ cause confusion (as evidenced earlier in this thread).

If you go with the domain name home.arpa and an IPv4 subnet sliced out
of one of 192.168.0.0/16, 172.12.0.0/12 or 10.0.0.0/8, you can be
_almost certain_ that nothing will break because of those choices, now
_or_ in the future.

None of the other alternatives I've seen proposed in this thread can
offer anything like such guarantees.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Erwan David]

Le 25/10/2023 à 03:47, David Wright a écrit :

On Mon 23 Oct 2023 at 12:06:05 (+0200), Christian Groessler wrote:

On 10/23/23 07:29, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:

How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 letter 
abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with 
shortcuts).

Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
gTLD namespace; see .

Just register a daomain and use that.

That costs money, and I can't see the point when there are TLDs
that are perfectly safe already available, like .home.arpa, and
before that, .{corp,home,mail}.

Cheers,
David.


Or if you already have a domain, you can use a subdomain. eg. I have 
rail.eu.org, and at home it is depot.rail.eu.org



--
Erwan David

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Marco M.]

Am 25.10.2023 um 03:40:46 Uhr schrieb ghe2001:

> TLD '.lan' works.  As best I can tell on the web, it doesn't exist.  

Is it intended for that?
No?
Then don't use it. It can be used in the future for public domains.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256


--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, October 24th, 2023 at 7:47 PM, David Wright 
 wrote:


> On Mon 23 Oct 2023 at 12:06:05 (+0200), Christian Groessler wrote:
> 
> > On 10/23/23 07:29, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > 

> > Just register a daomain and use that.
> 
> 
> That costs money, 

It's probably slower than the Ethernet cable (or modern WiFi) to the next room, 
too.

> and I can't see the point when there are TLDs
> that are perfectly safe already available, like .home.arpa, and
> before that, .{corp,home,mail}.

TLD '.lan' works.  As best I can tell on the web, it doesn't exist.  

--
Glenn English
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Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[David Wright]

On Mon 23 Oct 2023 at 12:06:05 (+0200), Christian Groessler wrote:
> On 10/23/23 07:29, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:
> > > 
> > > How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 
> > > letter abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, 
> > > DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with shortcuts).
> > 
> > Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
> > gTLD namespace; see .
> 
> Just register a daomain and use that.

That costs money, and I can't see the point when there are TLDs
that are perfectly safe already available, like .home.arpa, and
before that, .{corp,home,mail}.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/23/23 16:35, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 10:33:47PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/22/23 20:48, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.


This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version, which
should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a config file


I'm afraid that *you* are the person who has moved or broken your
config files with relation to name resolution in every case you've
ever described here. All of it has been user error. You've never yet
shown an example of any change designed to make hosts files work
less well (or not at all). That is just a belief you have and
continue to state as if it's fact, but at no time has it stood up to
scrutiny.

Then perhaps you can explain to me, why Ican fillout the data tonget 
online with a netinstall installer, download and instal 6 or 8 Gn of 
stuff, and when it is time to reboot the new snstall, it comes back up 
with a default route in the 169 block, locking me out of net access 
until I rm by brute root force any and everything to do with avahi for 
starters? At that point I'm locked out of net access even to the other 
still working machines on my home net. Explain to me how I've just 
pulled close to 8 GB in from the net,  but the totally bogus avahi 169 
address is the default route when its been thru the first reboot.


Go ahead, But I'm listening for factual info, not the above innuendo and 
 false accusations I did something wrong. I'm not doing anything the 
installer didn't ask me to do.  22 times before someone told me to 
unplug my weeping willow tree of usb stuff in order to get an install 
w/o orca and brltty which it installed and activated w/o asking me if I 
wanted it just because it was finding 2 usb-serial adapter's and assumed 
I was blind. Once that stuff is enabled and you rm it to get some peace 
and quiet, it won't reboot as it waits forever to bring them back up. So 
when I needed to reboot the only way to reboot was to reinstall.  And 
I'm been catching hell ever since just because I wanted a working 
system, which even now I don't have.


My /home is a raid10, but anything that wants to write to it, has to 
wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes before the file requestor 
asking where to put this incoming file opens. Its /my/ raid, I own it 
all, why and what is getting in the way?  A question I have asked 
several times without even the courtesy of a reply.


A recent kernel update seemed to speed that up some, the wait is now a 
much more consistent 30 seconds but it is still there for the first 
access and now instant after that initial wait.


Am I the only one on the planet using a quad of 1T Samsung 870 SSD's for 
a raid10 /home?



Those reading this later need to believe Greg's statements and not
Gene's.


Thanks for the no confidence vote Andy but I'l stand by what I wrote. It 
has all happened to /me/.



Thanks,
Andy



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/23/23 14:09, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 12:12:50PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

Google seems to have high jacked port 80


https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net


They have, chromium, the google browser, absolutely cannot be sent to
http://localhost:80 on any arm system here at the Heskett Ranchette. FF can,
but not chromium, its doing a failed advertising lookup on google instead.



My mistake, I'm not a huge chrome fan, its google, spit.

But on armbian jammy its the default browser and you can't change that 
either. Amazingly it seems to work normally to localhost6, but there's 
nothing there, its all on port 80. So we are forced to use FF which Just 
Works for ipv4 addresses.



I don't have Chromium, but I do have Google Chrome installed.

ii  google-chrome-stable 118.0.5993.88-1 amd64The web browser from 
Google

Whatever issue you're seeing, I'm not able to reproduce it.  If I run
a service on localhost port 80, and then paste http://localhost:80 into
the URL bar in Chrome (copied directly from your email), it connects
to the localhost service.


Which it should Just Do, but on armbian jammy, no.


unicorn:~$ sudo tcpserver -v 0 80 /usr/bin/printf 'hello world\r\n'
tcpserver: status: 0/40
tcpserver: status: 1/40
tcpserver: pid 473439 from 127.0.0.1
tcpserver: ok 473439 localhost:127.0.0.1:80 localhost:127.0.0.1::45292
tcpserver: end 473439 status 0
tcpserver: status: 0/40

unicorn:~$ grep localhost /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1   localhost
::1 localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback


And I'm 150 miles from the nearest ipv6 access point.


unicorn:~$ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf
hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns

There's no conspiracy here.  There's no "every few years Debian changes
something and I have to scramble to fix it".  This stuff just works, Gene.
For everybody except you.


gene@bpi55:~$ grep localhost /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1   localhost
::1 localhost bananapim5 ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
gene@bpi55:~$ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf
hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname

Take care & stay well, Greg.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 10:33:47PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 10/22/23 20:48, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
> > You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
> > have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.
> 
> This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version, which
> should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a config file

I'm afraid that *you* are the person who has moved or broken your
config files with relation to name resolution in every case you've
ever described here. All of it has been user error. You've never yet
shown an example of any change designed to make hosts files work
less well (or not at all). That is just a belief you have and
continue to state as if it's fact, but at no time has it stood up to
scrutiny.

Those reading this later need to believe Greg's statements and not
Gene's.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 02:09:31PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 12:12:50PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > Google seems to have high jacked port 80
> > > 
> > > https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net
> > > 
> > They have, chromium, the google browser, absolutely cannot be sent to
> > http://localhost:80 on any arm system here at the Heskett Ranchette. FF can,
> > but not chromium, its doing a failed advertising lookup on google instead.
> 

Gene,

Admittedly on amd64 virtual machine but as a datum point. With Gnome, nginx
and Chromium installed - thus a working web server on the same machine

Chromium works perfectly to serve http://localhost:80 and serves the 
nginx page perfectly

Cannot reproduce,

Andy

> I don't have Chromium, but I do have Google Chrome installed.
> 
> ii  google-chrome-stable 118.0.5993.88-1 amd64The web browser from 
> Google
> 
> Whatever issue you're seeing, I'm not able to reproduce it.  If I run
> a service on localhost port 80, and then paste http://localhost:80 into
> the URL bar in Chrome (copied directly from your email), it connects
> to the localhost service.
> 
> unicorn:~$ sudo tcpserver -v 0 80 /usr/bin/printf 'hello world\r\n'
> tcpserver: status: 0/40
> tcpserver: status: 1/40
> tcpserver: pid 473439 from 127.0.0.1
> tcpserver: ok 473439 localhost:127.0.0.1:80 localhost:127.0.0.1::45292
> tcpserver: end 473439 status 0
> tcpserver: status: 0/40
> 
> unicorn:~$ grep localhost /etc/hosts
> 127.0.0.1   localhost
> ::1 localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
> 
> unicorn:~$ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf 
> hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns
> 
> There's no conspiracy here.  There's no "every few years Debian changes
> something and I have to scramble to fix it".  This stuff just works, Gene.
> For everybody except you.
> 

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 12:12:50PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > > Google seems to have high jacked port 80
> > 
> > https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net
> > 
> They have, chromium, the google browser, absolutely cannot be sent to
> http://localhost:80 on any arm system here at the Heskett Ranchette. FF can,
> but not chromium, its doing a failed advertising lookup on google instead.

I don't have Chromium, but I do have Google Chrome installed.

ii  google-chrome-stable 118.0.5993.88-1 amd64The web browser from 
Google

Whatever issue you're seeing, I'm not able to reproduce it.  If I run
a service on localhost port 80, and then paste http://localhost:80 into
the URL bar in Chrome (copied directly from your email), it connects
to the localhost service.

unicorn:~$ sudo tcpserver -v 0 80 /usr/bin/printf 'hello world\r\n'
tcpserver: status: 0/40
tcpserver: status: 1/40
tcpserver: pid 473439 from 127.0.0.1
tcpserver: ok 473439 localhost:127.0.0.1:80 localhost:127.0.0.1::45292
tcpserver: end 473439 status 0
tcpserver: status: 0/40

unicorn:~$ grep localhost /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1   localhost
::1 localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback

unicorn:~$ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf 
hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns

There's no conspiracy here.  There's no "every few years Debian changes
something and I have to scramble to fix it".  This stuff just works, Gene.
For everybody except you.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 22:55, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 23/10/2023 04:43, gene heskett wrote:


As I keep repeating Dan, there is not a local dns, its all a 15 entry 
hosts file atm. So that cannot bite /me/.


It can. Some day .den TLD may be registered and chosen by a 3d printer 
manufacturer. It might happen that you would not be able to access docs 
for your shiny new device and you would claim something like



Google seems to have high jacked port 80


https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net


They have, chromium, the google browser, absolutely cannot be sent to
http://localhost:80 on any arm system here at the Heskett Ranchette. FF 
can, but not chromium, its doing a failed advertising lookup on google 
instead. Still works normally on wintel hdwe, but not on arm's.  And I 
use bananapi-m5's to run klipper and friends on a couple tables full of 
3d printers here.  And except for an rpi4b doing a different job, they 
ALL run on debian bookworm/arm64 or ubuntu jammy/arm64 repos.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256


--- Original Message ---
On Sunday, October 22nd, 2023 at 11:29 PM, Jeffrey Walton  
wrote:



> Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
> 
> gTLD namespace; see https://icannwiki.org/Brand_TLD.
> 
> 
> The DNS queries for fii.xy (a typo) will escape your homenet when you
> meant to type foo.xy (the target).

Hadn't thought of that, but a shortcut name in the hosts file fixes it all.

For example: One of my computers is called gobook3 (makes sense to me).  In 
hosts, it's shortcut is 'gb'.  'ping gb' does what's expected.  'ping gv' says 
'ping: gv: Name or service not known'.  And I've had no reason to rattle 
ICANN's cage(s) -- it's all local.

/etc/hosts has worked just fine for me since I became aware of IP and put up a 
little Internet domain (I disabled it a few years ago when my brain hit 75 
years old and the ISP raised their rates).

--
Glenn English

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Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 22:37, John Hasler wrote:

Gene writes:

This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.


I use host files and I don't have that problem.


And where, if you don't have a network, did you find the info to fix 
it?, when two junk 2T seagates around 6 weeks old die in the same week, 
making one start from square one with a new bookworm install? And 
install that pulled in and enabled orca and brltty and which could not 
be rebooted once they were disabled. You could only reinstall to reboot, 
which I did 22 times before someone suggested unplugging any 
usb<->serial adapters, the installer was assuming I was blind and NEVER 
ASKED ME if I wanted them.


Have you, I assume with decent hearing, ever tried to use a computer 
that is locked up and spending about a second for every key press by 
announcing in a barely understandable but loud voice, every key's 
identity as they are being pressed? Distraction is a wholly inadequate 
description. I rest my case on that one.


Take care & stay well John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 23:08, Stefan Monnier wrote:

This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.

I use host files and I don't have that problem.


Same here: the last time I had problems with `/etc/hosts` files was
back when `/etc/nsswitch.conf` was introduced :-)
That was before I started using Debian.

I can relate to Gene's feelings since there's been indeed some churn
over the years, but `/etc/hosts` seems like an odd example because this
one is among the most stable part of Unix/Linux.


 Stefan

The squawk includes /etc/hosts because that method is the root cause of 
all the troubles. For a while you could hide what used to be in 
/etc/network/interfaces in the last stanza of /etc/dhcpdc(sp?).conf, but 
that like /e/n/interfaces was too easy, anybody could do it so that went 
away.  There it was the last ditch src if a dhcp could not be found. 
That actually made sense but wasn't ever published that I know of. The 
churn seems more like change just for the hell of it as no real reason 
for the changes ever seemed to make it into the docs that get installed 
in a bare metal install. Not even a hint in any of the usual suspects 
conf files. It was pure serendipity that I found that with a global grep 
of the whole /etc tree for any mention of dhcp. That fell out, so I read 
it, finding this cute little fill in the blanks thing clear at the 
bottom of a 5k file.  So I "filled in the blanks" and it worked, For two 
major releases. But again that was way too easy so it went away, I guess 
in favor of nsswitch. But not one grep able word about it made it into 
the bare metal installed docs.  And that is where this old (89 now) Iowa 
farm kid who tested in the 7th grade at an IQ of 147, blows his cool. 
Which unfortunately gets me way more than my std 15 minutes of fame here.


Anyway Stefan, take care and stay well. And unvaxed. A small selenium 
and a couple d3's a day is much better insurance.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Christian Groessler]

On 10/23/23 07:29, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:


How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 letter 
abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with 
shortcuts).


Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
gTLD namespace; see .



Just register a daomain and use that.

regards,
chris

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/10/2023 09:59, Stefan Monnier wrote:
I can relate to Gene's feelings since there's been indeed some churn 
over the years, but `/etc/hosts` seems like an odd example because this 
one is among the most stable part of Unix/Linux.


Gene's issue was with resolv.conf and he was refusing Greg's suggestions 
to fix it for a long time.


By the way, is there a way to validate correctness of the resolv.conf 
file, e.g. to force libc to spit warnings in response to unrecognized 
entries?

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:24 AM ghe2001  wrote:
>
> How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 
> letter abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, 
> DNS'ed in /etc/hosts (with shortcuts).

Whatever you come up with for , ICANN can add to the
gTLD namespace; see .

The DNS queries for fii.xy (a typo) will escape your homenet when you
meant to type foo.xy (the target).

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Stefan Monnier]

>> This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
>> which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
>> config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
>> ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
>> YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.
> I use host files and I don't have that problem.

Same here: the last time I had problems with `/etc/hosts` files was
back when `/etc/nsswitch.conf` was introduced :-)
That was before I started using Debian.

I can relate to Gene's feelings since there's been indeed some churn
over the years, but `/etc/hosts` seems like an odd example because this
one is among the most stable part of Unix/Linux.


Stefan

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/10/2023 04:43, gene heskett wrote:


As I keep repeating Dan, there is not a local dns, its all a 15 entry 
hosts file atm. So that cannot bite /me/.


It can. Some day .den TLD may be registered and chosen by a 3d printer 
manufacturer. It might happen that you would not be able to access docs 
for your shiny new device and you would claim something like



Google seems to have high jacked port 80


https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/0a8b96aa-8630-ee5c-5135-59221c55b...@shentel.net

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version,
> which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a
> config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't
> ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what
> YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.

I use host files and I don't have that problem.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 20:48, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file
users, and do something that totally screws us up,


Gene, you're being irrational again.  "Hosts file only" systems have been
supported since before Debian existed, without surcease.  There has never
been a time when they weren't supported.  There never will be.

Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.



This is generally true, Greg, and I get that, but every new version, 
which should just continue what works, doesn't cuz somebody moved a 
config file and last years fix doesn't work this year.  And you can't 
ask for help when its not working. So YOU have to fix it based of what 
YOU know works.  Makes one wonder about the motives.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 08:36:53PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file
> users, and do something that totally screws us up,

Gene, you're being irrational again.  "Hosts file only" systems have been
supported since before Debian existed, without surcease.  There has never
been a time when they weren't supported.  There never will be.

Any issues you've encountered have been the result of misconfiguration.
You have repeatedly shown errors in your config files, and once those
have been corrected, everything has worked as expected.

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 18:45, John Hasler wrote:

I wrote:

It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.


Gene writes:

If that is an insult, so be it.


I just meant to explain that though it is not a solution to your problem,
it is a solution to a problem some other people have.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other John.

What really bugs me is when the maintainers forget there are hosts file 
users, and do something that totally screws us up, getting help to 
restore a broken system can't be done, cuz you can't ask anything with 
it broken, and when by brute force, you finally get it sorta working, 
95% of the help you need to really make it right is replaced by 
instructions on how to setup just one facet of dhcp, so it often has to 
be a snippet there, and another from someplace else, repeat till it all 
works, gleaned from the 5% who do understand but are often drowned out 
by the why the hell don't you run dhcp crowd representing the other 95%.


Not your fault of course, that is just how it is as viewed from this 
chair, by the same guy whose been online since before Delphi, with a 
trs-80 Color computer since we were blessed with a server at Princeton 
in the 80's.  A remodel got it walled in and forgotten about till 
another remodel tore out the wall exposing it a decade later, still 
running. 30+ years later I can't even remember its name. Perhaps you do.


Take care & stay well John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

How about a /29 or so, named "here.", hosts named 2 or 3 letter 
abbreviations of what you call the computers, with unroutable IPs, DNS'ed in 
/etc/hosts (with shortcuts).

Works here...

--
Glenn English

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Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
> block is.

Gene writes:
> If that is an insult, so be it.

I just meant to explain that though it is not a solution to your problem,
it is a solution to a problem some other people have. 
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 14:19, John Hasler wrote:

Gene writes:

Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use
whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an
un-routeable address block.


It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.


If that is an insult, so be it.


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788


Many Thanks for the link John, but having spent 20 minutes scanning thru 
that, my probably invalid comment would be that all the links are there 
but not even a Philadelphia lawyer could grasp it in 5 years time. 
Assuming each link is 20,000 words or more, at 400 wpm I don't have 
enough time left to read it all.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm:NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 14:17, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:



https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375



Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
address block.



Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
Net at large.

As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
"den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
being registered by someone else.

You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or
unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
example).


As I keep repeating Dan, there is not a local dns, its all a 15 entry 
hosts file atm. So that cannot bite /me/.


Now If I should make a typu, fat fingering & miss-spelling an alias, I 
suppose that might resolve to someplace in the neighorhood of a yurt 
near Ulan Bator and they might not appreciate my trying to login in 
English. Until then I'm not inclined to lose much sleep over it.  If it 
ever happens, its adjustable in any event. It will all die when this 
stuff gets turned off by the cleanup crew after I miss roll call.


There's about 6 years left in the pacemaker battery and the average life 
of a TAVR heart valve is another 8 or so years. By then I will be 95 and 
might be napping in my morning cereal. Higher Powers have missed several 
chances to claim me, but they'd look ar the book and send me down, I'd 
fix the stoker, rewind the generators and open an air conditioned bar 
and neither of them could tolerate that. In the meantime ;o)>




-dsr-
.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 2:33 PM Dan Ritter  wrote:
>
> gene heskett wrote:
> > On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375
> > >
> > Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
> > domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
> > address block.
>
>
> Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
> Net at large.
>
> As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
> "den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
> point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
> being registered by someone else.
>
> You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
> how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
> safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
> instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or
> unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
> example).

+1.

I've been using home.pvt and home.dmz since the late 1990s. I've been
waiting for it to break since vanity domains/brand tlds are a thing
now. .

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Oct 2023 13:13 -0500, from j...@sugarbit.com (John Hasler):
> It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
> block is.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788

RFC 8375 section 1:

"Although this document makes specific reference to [RFC7788], it is
not intended that the use of 'home.arpa.' be restricted solely to
networks where HNCP is deployed. Rather, 'home.arpa.' is intended to
be the correct domain for uses like the one described for '.home' in
[RFC7788]: local name service in residential homenets."

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375
> > 
> Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use whatever
> domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an un-routeable
> address block.


Sure. Right up until the day that someone registers it on the
Net at large.

As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs.
"den" is not currently one of them, but that could change at any
point, and then there would be a high likelihood of "coyote.den"
being registered by someone else.

You might not have a specific problem with that, depending on
how you do local DNS, and depending on what you want. But it's
safer to either use a recognized internal domain (home.arpa, for
instance) or a domain that you own, either with split views or 
unpublished internal subdomains (internal.randomstring.org, for
example).

-dsr-

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use
> whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an
> un-routeable address block.

It's for people who haven't a clue as to what a domainname or address
block is.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7788
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[gene heskett]

On 10/22/23 11:19, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:



It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375


Chuckle. Looks like a solution looking for a problem. You can use 
whatever domainname that tickles your fancy when your net is in an 
un-routeable address block. just for S, and because a half G.S., half 
Coyote mix was the smartest "dog" I ever met, my home network domainname 
has been the "coyote.den" for 25 years now. "Lady" understood English 
and could do simple math, barking the number of times the answer was.



Thanks for that. I was not aware the domain was reserved.

Jeff



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 7:13 AM Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:
>
> On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> > Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
> > Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
> > makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
> > my register it in the future.
> > That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
> > collision with domain names that way.
>
> It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
> pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375

Thanks for that. I was not aware the domain was reserved.

Jeff

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Pocket]

On 10/22/23 07:13, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):

Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
my register it in the future.
That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
collision with domain names that way.

It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375


I am researching this as I am aware that things have changed from 20 years ago 
and with ipv6 adoption


--
It's not easy to be me

Re: Domain name to use on home networks; was: Bookworm: NetworkManager

[Michael Kjörling]

On 21 Oct 2023 17:13 -0400, from poc...@columbus.rr.com (Pocket):
> Why would I register a domain name for an internal network?
> Any name will do.  You could make the same argument if you just
> makeup a domain to use as it could already be registered or someone
> my register it in the future.
> That is why I picked example.org as It will/can not be used, no
> collision with domain names that way.

It's fairly recent (RFC 8375, May 2018) but this type of usage is
pretty much exactly what home.arpa is meant for.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8375

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”