Re: my unintentional irony and self-satire - Now French saying to Aussie colloquialism fail
On 2014-11-23, Bret Busby bret.bu...@gmail.com wrote: On 24/11/14 08:06, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 24/11/14 03:38, Curt wrote: On 2014-11-23, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: To any listmasters that might be paying attention. snipped self-unaware, awesome joke L'hôpital qui se moque de la charité? I think that, in one of the sciences, was a L'Hopital's Rule, but, do not remember to what it applied, or, what was the rule. Otherwise, I wonder whether the above, has something to do with mosques and charities and hospitals? :) Apt. (In English Pot, meet kettle) [facepalm] :) L'hôpital qui se moque de la charité? is a French precept[*1], the English equivalent is A pot calling the kettle black, the Australian abbreviation is Pot, meet kettle Note the difference between translation of individual words and meaning. Google translate will only get you so far. For a cheese-lover, Curt's name displays a high level understanding of the nuances of English - or, 'maybe', just synchronicity (CSJ). ;p [now finishing this brief semiotic and linguistic interlude and returning you to the regular Debian User list] [*1] one-bookian equivalent - Matthew7:5,Paul6:42 Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54728fe0.8030...@gmail.com
Re: my unintentional irony and self-satire - Now French saying to Aussie colloquialism fail
On 24/11/2014, Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-11-23, Bret Busby bret.bu...@gmail.com wrote: On 24/11/14 08:06, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 24/11/14 03:38, Curt wrote: On 2014-11-23, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: To any listmasters that might be paying attention. snipped self-unaware, awesome joke L'hôpital qui se moque de la charité? I think that, in one of the sciences, was a L'Hopital's Rule, but, do not remember to what it applied, or, what was the rule. Otherwise, I wonder whether the above, has something to do with mosques and charities and hospitals? :) Apt. (In English Pot, meet kettle) [facepalm] :) L'hôpital qui se moque de la charité? is a French precept[*1], the English equivalent is A pot calling the kettle black, the Australian abbreviation is Pot, meet kettle Note the difference between translation of individual words and meaning. Google translate will only get you so far. For a cheese-lover, Curt's name displays a high level understanding of the nuances of English - or, 'maybe', just synchronicity (CSJ). ;p [now finishing this brief semiotic and linguistic interlude and returning you to the regular Debian User list] [*1] one-bookian equivalent - Matthew7:5,Paul6:42 In tems of Orstarlianinsms, does the above, mean that Matthew got 7 gaols, and whalloped 5 behinds, and Paul only got 6 gaols, but managed to whallop 42 behinds? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cacx6j8pzwiqvg0cq9tzcyps_2gbcaqdnfyrhpasy6paa7aj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: my unintentional irony and self-satire - Now French saying to Aussie colloquialism fail
On 24/11/14 16:42, Bret Busby wrote: On 24/11/2014, Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-11-23, Bret Busby bret.bu...@gmail.com wrote: snipped [*1] one-bookian equivalent - Matthew7:5,Paul6:42 In tems of Orstarlianinsms, does the above, mean that Matthew got 7 gaols, and whalloped 5 behinds, and Paul only got 6 gaols, but managed to whallop 42 behinds? No - that would have been Matthew 7.5 Paul 6.42, but - they never played against each other. Paul came after the VFL/AFL restructure. (though Paul poached most of Matthew's players. Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5472d235.6010...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: In my view SQL is a query language that can do much more than look up records in a single table. To claim that some init system is superior to some other init system because it has 'SQL logging' is, as Andrew said, silly. Almost none of the power of the language is being used in the init system application. Using the fact of SQL logging as a claim for systemd is bullet point one-up-manship. IIRC, the OP said that he liked the structured logging of systemd and wished that it had sql logging. (It's rsyslog that has mysql and pgsql output modules.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SwLjWcQ=8tziynit-ufraosppqtbmkdmctjz1ade48...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:37:38 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: What columns? Who defined those columns? There are way way too many wrong items to respond to here... However, if you've customized your logs then you have decided the table column headers. There is precisely no difference in the logic nor, in fact, the actual programmatic action of defining the 'column' headers in your apache httpd.conf file or the column headers in a database table called 'apache2' ... The rest of your arguments are similarly flawed... Pardon me... I should have seen the den of trolls I was stepping into... I'll tread more carefully when dealing with similarly minded attack dogs for the good 'ol times when they needn't worry about sense, logic, or reality... --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815063904.6a3bbc6d8a26c6dbd3314...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On 8/15/2014 6:39 AM, AW wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:37:38 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: What columns? Who defined those columns? There are way way too many wrong items to respond to here... However, if you've customized your logs then you have decided the table column headers. There is precisely no difference in the logic nor, in fact, the actual programmatic action of defining the 'column' headers in your apache httpd.conf file or the column headers in a database table called 'apache2' ... No, you have no response because he's right on every statement. The rest of your arguments are similarly flawed... Only in your mind. Pardon me... I should have seen the den of trolls I was stepping into... I'll tread more carefully when dealing with similarly minded attack dogs for the good 'ol times when they needn't worry about sense, logic, or reality... --Andrew There's only one troll here - the one who won't respond to logical arguments (what about your response to my statements yesterday and last week?). Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53edfd2c.8020...@attglobal.net
Re: Irony
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 06:39:04 -0400 AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:37:38 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: What columns? Who defined those columns? There are way way too many wrong items to respond to here... However, if you've customized your logs then you have decided the table column headers. There is precisely no difference in the logic nor, in fact, the actual programmatic action of defining the 'column' headers in your apache httpd.conf file or the column headers in a database table called 'apache2' ... The rest of your arguments are similarly flawed... Pardon me... I should have seen the den of trolls I was stepping into... I'll tread more carefully when dealing with similarly minded attack dogs for the good 'ol times when they needn't worry about sense, logic, or reality... --Andrew You know Andrew, a week or so ago I was called a troll, probably rightly so, for repeatedly stating the same objections to systemd, email after email. The problem wasn't what I was saying: I was stating the case for modularity, which about half the list inhabitants agreed with. The problem was I kept doing it, over and over, beating a dead horse, long after I'd made my point. You call your critics a den of trolls, but in reality, Andrew, you're the king of trolls. You've taken it to a whole new level. Not only are you doing what I did and beating a dead horse long after you'd made your point, but you've taken the extra step by advocating something that is completely, utterly whack: That one must have a DBMS to read his logs. You've made it clear, you don't mean a program should exist to copy text file logs into a Postgres database, you mean that they go right into Postgres, and then the user must run programs to see them. What could *possibly* go wrong? You've stated your sense, logic, or reality, we all know you want the native format of logs to be Postgres or some other DBMS (hey, why not Akonadi?). Your message hasn't been well received. Why don't you just move on? Unless, of course, you're a troll. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815095152.2ac84...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:51:52 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: ou've made it clear, you don't mean a program should exist to copy text file logs into a Postgres database, you mean that they go right into Postgres, and then the user must run programs to see them. What could *possibly* go wrong? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/08/msg00511.html Directly contradicts you... Oops! I just stepped in the troll den again... --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815104010.6c0af4eecd7363db9c046...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 09:10:59PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: It is the LANGUAGE that is STRUCTURED - not the data. SQL was created to deal with relational data, not structured data. When interleaving or bottom-posting your reply (++), please make sure to also trim out irrelevant content. Thanks, -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgpJkpAdEBuNt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Irony
On 8/16/14, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:51:52 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: ou've made it clear, you don't mean a program should exist to copy text file logs into a Postgres database, you mean that they go right into Postgres, and then the user must run programs to see them. What could *possibly* go wrong? https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/08/msg00511.html Directly contradicts you... No need to be defensive - I have enjoyed the discussion almost sinfully I might add - alright, alright, definitely sinfully), and in your reply link you post you were very decorous. The thread was too interesting to let die I guess, but not because of you - so rest easy, and enjoy the show :) (I could addend, only possibly contributed by you in a very small way due to your ever so mildly reactive nature, but I didn't want to keep the thread going.) Oops! I just stepped in the troll den again... The only 'improvement' I would suggest to yourself (since we're in the middle of a suggest improvements to Andrew moment), is to let much of the world's posts be water off a duck's back - with you the duck. Don't take anything personally, because most of us are deranged or wierd or just plain missing the point and so appearing like trolls, at least some of the time. So taking something personally, or sniping those who you think are trolls (like you did just here), will almost always backfire or cause a dead horse to leap from the ground and subsequently dreaded dead-horse whipping zombies to also rise and to raise their whips and uncoordinatingly attempt to whip the non-moving yet now standing dead horse, yet incomprehensibly fail, over, and over and over again, to actually whip said dead horse. This provides much entertainment for most onlookers, and deep anxst for those who tightly clasp their hands in fear, worrying over the excess bits being pushed around by the email-server-o-sphere. It's quite a show. But you know what I always say - never let a good opportunity for troll baiting go by, if there's a chance someone will get a chuckle out of it :) ducks and runs like an appropriate simile for an extremely fast run -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSRoD507DJYqj=PSrQmG33B+u+UrBxP=lck7o6l2qry...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
But when top-posting, don't bother trimming at all, just leave everything, including signature, by the wayside - someone else'll clean it up later. On 8/16/14, Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 09:10:59PM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: It is the LANGUAGE that is STRUCTURED - not the data. SQL was created to deal with relational data, not structured data. When interleaving or bottom-posting your reply (++), please make sure to also trim out irrelevant content. Thanks, -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnst4+8yifaaxdm16jkt5mrlxhfkfngvo-sruwjth6kt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 10:51:03 +1000 Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: improvements to Andrew moment I'm quite perfect and need no improvements. Much like systemd, of course. SQL logging module notwithstanding... because most of us are deranged Well then! I've come to the right place! --ANDREW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815210243.1051b7ad26e28fbd828f2...@1024bits.com
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Jo, 14 aug 14, 09:48:45, Joel Rees wrote: A four-four draw in the technical committees should have been a call to open the discussion to a wider user base, not a call for one member of the committee to make an arbitrary decision. Things are not functioning correctly up there, even if we ignore the Social Contract. This seems to come up from time to time so I have to say: The vote against sysvinit was 7:1 Sysvinit didn't even beat Further Discussion (4:4), which in Debian's voting system means we would rather restart the discussion than continue with sysvinit. The 4:4 draw you are referring to, the one decided by the Chairman's casting vote was for the systemd vs. upstart part of the vote. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00405.html Add to this that the Technical Committee specifically designed the resolution to be overridable by a General Resolution with a simple majority (vs. the two thirds required by the constitution to override the Technical Committee). Yet, - *nobody* proposed a resolution to change systemd with upstart or stick with sysvinit - the proposed resolution to decide between loose coupling vs. tight coupling didn't even gather enough sponsors. https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg0.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2014/03/msg00151.html Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Irony
On 20140809_1647-0400, AW wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. SteveT A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. There remains only a few holdouts from the major distributions: Gentoo and Slackware. So, give 'em a go... However, I've spent a significant time over the last few days relearning much of what I thought I knew about rsyslog, what I knew I didn't know about systemd, and musing about what the future may hold... And I gotta say, I might have agreed with you several months ago -- but I no longer do... Systemd is going to take over, because it's - well - better than what existed in the past. And that's also what open source is about -- a meritocracy. I also learned that rsyslog, syslog-ng and company have had sql logging capability all along... silly me! I should just learn to look more thoroughly at what I have in front of me... and, I'm sure, if you take a good honest look at the whole of systemd and what the team is attempting, you'll come over to the dark-side as well... BTW, we have cookies. --Andrew Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814201428.ga27...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) Neither. I prefer homemade chocolate chip using 1/2 cup butter and 1/2 cup Crisco... Just like my grandmother used to make... Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* Logging data are 100% relational. In fact, everytime someone uses grep, tail, head, cut, and awk to search through a log file -- they demonstrate that the log data are relational. http://web.mit.edu/11.521/www/lectures/lecture10/lec_data_design.html and. http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/lecture-notes/ A syslog is close to very definition of relational data with the primary key being the timestamp and/or the facility in one large table [not the best design] --- or better primary key being the timestamp and/or generated uuid and the facility being the table... However, as I stated previously, systemd seems fine to me... and the old sysvinit have sql export already - so, obivously lots of people thought and presumably still think log data is handy in an sql database. http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/rsyslog_pgsql.html QED. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814170555.03d4fb153dbdeba21ffa8...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814224738.27db9...@jretrading.com
Re: Irony
On Friday, August 15, 2014 1:50:02 AM UTC+5:30, Paul E Condon wrote: Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? How about we backup one step up the etymological path? And replace 'relational' by 'structured' [The original name was Structured Query Language -- shortened to SQL] Are you saying logging data is not structured? I believe this is not a rhetorical question: it seems to me logs are somewhat at the borderline of needing the heavy-duty structuring associated with SQL. ACID (like postgres) is a red-herring. Indicated by the existence of database systems like sqlite -- library/API based, natural mode of running is single threaded -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2aa8a115-1861-4459-90e4-b5b477bcc...@googlegroups.com
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:05 AM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: Andrew, are your cookies virtuous (lo-cal) or virtual? ;) Neither. I prefer homemade chocolate chip using 1/2 cup butter and 1/2 cup Crisco... Just like my grandmother used to make... Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* Logging data are 100% relational. In fact, everytime someone uses grep, tail, head, cut, and awk to search through a log file -- they demonstrate that the log data are relational. When you think like that, this email is relational. But I can buy that much functionality without bothering with any index tables or other database application overhead. When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. When you're dumping log data to a pure text log file, you don't care whether there's a server or even a functioning SQLite library+subsystem on the other end. If your file system, at least, is functioning, you're log gets recorded. http://web.mit.edu/11.521/www/lectures/lecture10/lec_data_design.html and. http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/lecture-notes/ Wow. You can find entry-level textbooks. Have you ever considered how many bad database designs can be crammed into the relational model? Not saying the relational model is any worse than any other database model, but the mere fact that a design can be made does not mean it is a particularly functional design, nor does it mean that it accurately represents the data, any particular meaning of the data, or any particular use of the data. A syslog is close to very definition of relational data with the primary key being the timestamp and/or the facility in one large table [not the best design] --- or better primary key being the timestamp and/or generated uuid and the facility being the table... syslog is not a particularly good example of a logging facility. But even within that, you can't seem to see the trees for the forest, if you'll pardon me. (We used to understand that seeing the forest required seeing the trees. These days, the champions of the white paper view of the universe seem to be winning.) However, as I stated previously, systemd seems fine to me... and the old sysvinit have sql export already - So that by-the-white-paper managers can get their fix, basically. Exporting it doesn't mean you have to delete the original, but that's beyond the point. so, obivously lots of people thought and presumably still think log data is handy in an sql database. Handy to people who want everything in SQL format is fine, after the fact. http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/rsyslog_pgsql.html QED. QED what? The problem with OS-level logging that you seem to be missing is that the OS sometimes gets into very undefined states. Plaintext logs can often still be written when the file system is only partially functional, and might even be viewable on a console even with the file system completely bombed. Even with SQLite, you have to have a properly functioning file system, in addition to a properly functioning SQL subsystem of some sort. Not requiring a server does not mean not requiring stable state or the library code to maintain state. (And when you try to reconstruct a database that has been dumping to a bombed file system, what tools do you use? You start with plaintext tools to find the wayward writes. Then you have to use special maintenance-only database tools that never use. So you are probably learning how to use them as you go, when any mistake could cost you the farm.) The fundamental tools you use are plaintext. And if you are an admin worth your pay, you know how to deal with plaintext. Structure is what you give the data after you have the data safely stored away. -- Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, the CPU is just a fancy pen. All is text, flowing freely from the past to the future. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43iogaf7-j1yazy-xhwvxc_y4+pgtmg4jxlmuoz0ypd3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. Of course you think sideways... Step 1. Choose a log to view Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. These are all relational searches. The fact that you decide as a human does not make the data non-relational. It should be very clear that log data are strongly relational. They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data you wish to view. As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the referrer? Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' statement... except the user must already know what the column headers are, as that information is not available as it would be in an sql database... --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814204736.bfbd6f88dba61ca919b63...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 5:47 PM, Joe wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. Sure, applications can use SQL Server or other SQL databases. But what if your SQL Server is not running for some reason or another? Maybe a corrupt database prevents it from starting, for instance. What is the kernel to do? And while you can access it with PHP, perl and almost any other language, it's not always so easy to do so. And simple SQL statements are OK - but what if you want to search for messages which contain abc, def and ghi, in any order? This can easily be accomplished with chained grep's, for instance. But it's not so easy with SQL (and the actual SQL you use may vary depending on the database you are using). Yes, Windows uses SQL for logging. But when was the last time you were able to boot into a Windows command line (in SAFE mode) and look at the log? Maybe never? I do this a LOT on my servers. And yes, you can export from SQL Server - but you may have to go through a lot to import to another SQL database. I have used both SQL and grep for many years. When searching text like logs, I find it much easier to use grep. I can even open the log in vim, search for what I want and the surrounding log entries are right there. You can't do that with one SQL statement. There are people that think SQL is slicker than snot on a doorknob. It's great for what it's designed for (relational data). But it just doesn't work as well as plain text files for things like logs. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe.
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 6:45 PM, Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, August 15, 2014 1:50:02 AM UTC+5:30, Paul E Condon wrote: Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? How about we backup one step up the etymological path? And replace 'relational' by 'structured' [The original name was Structured Query Language -- shortened to SQL] Are you saying logging data is not structured? I believe this is not a rhetorical question: it seems to me logs are somewhat at the borderline of needing the heavy-duty structuring associated with SQL. ACID (like postgres) is a red-herring. Indicated by the existence of database systems like sqlite -- library/API based, natural mode of running is single threaded It is the LANGUAGE that is STRUCTURED - not the data. SQL was created to deal with relational data, not structured data. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ed5e23.4050...@attglobal.net
Re: Irony
On 8/14/2014 8:47 PM, AW wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. Of course you think sideways... Step 1. Choose a log to view Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. These are all relational searches. The fact that you decide as a human does not make the data non-relational. It should be very clear that log data are strongly relational. They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data you wish to view. As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the referrer? Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' statement... except the user must already know what the column headers are, as that information is not available as it would be in an sql database... --Andrew Actually, NONE of these are relational searches. They are only selecting specific data from a single table. You need to study up on what a relational model means. It NEVER contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and the database is properly normalized). A relational model would be something with tables like Customer, Customer-Account, Account, Account-Transaction, Transaction. Then selecting all transactions for a specific account. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ed5f60.20...@attglobal.net
Re: Irony
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 21:16:16 -0400 Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net wrote: It NEVER contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and the database is properly normalized). See step 1... selecting the table = selecting the log file... A multiple table database is precisely the same as a multi-file log directory. -Sorry - you lose. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814214214.ec6ef8f58a4d2bf9240bc...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On 20140814_2247+0100, Joe wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0600 Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote: Comments (opinion) supporting your position that SQL logging is silly. It is my understanding that SQL is a query language that is designed to query (and update) a *relational*database* that has been designed according to design rules for which there is a vast how-to literature. Usually the goal is a database about a business firm and its customers, suppliers, employees, and stock holders. For SQL logging to be useful, it seems to me, there should be a properly designed *relational*database* of the internal state of a computer and its relationship to its users, and to the resources under its control. Are there such designs? Something that a sysadmin can buy, and/or download, from a reliable source and install and get working with minimal effort? Something that he can just do without management thinking he is exceeding his job authority? I think not. Therefore I conclude that SQL logging will not be used except in very large, very stable organizations, and should not matter in the context of Debian and its future. If it does happen in Debian, it will be just another downloadable .deb package, not a major shift in the nature of the Debian community or its relations with the rest of human society. Who knows of an Entity-Relationship diagram for a POSIX system wherein the updates of data meet the 'ACID' criteria? What will happen if a logged transaction violates an integrity constraint that is required by the data model? I think you're overcomplicating it. SQL works fine on just a single table. If you have a standard log format, in that there are well-defined fields, even if not all logs have the same fields, then SQL can be used to select and sort log entries on any criterion. At that level, SQL is a pretty trivial but powerful language to use. It is certainly used for logs in Windows, though unfortunately using the massively heavyweight SQL Server. Exchange, the MS email server, stores all email in an encrypted relational database, because again, emails have well-defined fields, and searching is easy. Before anyone jumps in, searching in Exchange uses LDAP, because it is 'integrated' with Active Directory, but the underlying database is a JET relational one, operating on SQL, much like the native Access single-file database. My home databases are all SQL with one exception (email clients can use LDAP address books but not SQL ones, which is a pain). They are mostly single tables with a few small auxiliary lookup tables, and SQL is trivial to use from PHP or perl via Apache, or by any ODBC client directly. As it's a standard TCP protocol, it can be forwarded over ssh. One of my databases relates to customer work, and I can open it anywhere with a LibreOffice Base application over ssh from my laptop. SQL server backups are plain text, dumped out of the server in the form of SQL statements, which can be imported by any other SQL server (possibly with a bit of messing about with line endings, character encoding, etc). It isn't as transparent and flexible as plain text files when you're logged into the computer which stores them, but it's the next best thing, and its client-server nature gives it other flexibilities that plain text files cannot offer, in addition to more powerful search facilities when grep isn't quite enough. -- Joe In my view SQL is a query language that can do much more than look up records in a single table. To claim that some init system is superior to some other init system because it has 'SQL logging' is, as Andrew said, silly. Almost none of the power of the language is being used in the init system application. Using the fact of SQL logging as a claim for systemd is bullet point one-up-manship. The data relation in init logging is very wide and un-normalized and needs none of the sophistication of SQL. Of course using SQL makes accessing the data easier than if one doesn't know or understand SQL, but is that a reason for choosing systemd over Upstart, for example, or some other init system whose proponents forgot to list this bullet point in their presentation? Surely not. Mentioning it is, IMHO, a shoddy debating ploy and speaks to the intellectual honesty of whoever uses it. Best regards, -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140815021031.ga28...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 10:42 AM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 21:16:16 -0400 Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net wrote: It NEVER contains just one table, even if that table has multiple columns (and the database is properly normalized). See step 1... selecting the table = selecting the log file... A multiple table database is precisely the same as a multi-file log directory. -Sorry - you lose. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140814214214.ec6ef8f58a4d2bf9240bc...@1024bits.com -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43iomvqwtsefjrxuwtjjkbrz2a71ubr4mch3+nm0p2yx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:47 AM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. Of course you think sideways... Step 1. Choose a log to view Mixed logs. What then? Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Maybe I don't want to limit to a particular time frame, especially when I'm trying to debug a problem which has been slowly corrupting the loggin database for I don't know how long. Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. What columns? Who defined those columns? Why do I have to do a database design on all the unforeseeable sets of conditions that I will want to log, many not errors or even warnings, with all the information I want to log about them, before I can start coding and debugging the application so that I can find out what I want to log? And, again, what happens when a watchdog daemon can't get a socket (heaven forbid a port) to the error logging daemon and wants to log that fact? Now we're back to log files and we might just as well have stuck with them in the first place. And if management wants them in a database, dump them to a database after you can scan through them to get an idea of any specific columns you want to define other than the free-form text bucket at the end. But keep the logs in files and generate the database from the files, otherwise, you're going to be stuck trying to log the fact that you can't log because your database function is down or not yet up, and that's going to happen a lot more often than trying to log the fact that your file system is so corrupt you can't write the logs. These are all relational searches. You can design them, after the fact, as relational searches. And if your design is good, it will catch a lot of similar searches. But you still have to write down the queries if you want to use them again, just like you have to write down the more complex grep queries if you want to use them again. The fact that you decide as a human does not make the data non-relational. Actually, the mathematician in me says, yes it does. No mathematical model truly captures anything from the real world. It should be very clear that log data are strongly relational. Only if there is a large text bucket at the end of most records. They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data you wish to view. Only after you have had time to go back, analyze a few months or years of logs, and design a database that fits. As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the referrer? You don't know unless you can see my httpd configuration files, unless I happen not to have customized the error logs very much. (And, yes, I sometimes heavily customize the apache logs to emphasize stuff that needs to be seen in a specific application while debugging a specific problem. Then I change the format again when I'm done, because leaving it that way clutters the logs. And I leave the format sitting in the configuration files in a comment, in case I need to do that again. You would have me design a new database and make the logs discontinuous to do the same thing. Which one shows the date? Aren't these precisely keyword searches? Depends on whether normalization makes them keywords. (See what I said above.) In fact, awk with grep usage is very similar to a database 'select' statement... Uhm, yeah, the early relational databases were little more than constrained plaintext, numeric indexes written as ASCII text, and searched with awk, sed, and grep. Then they started adding specialty search functions and then they started writing the indexes in binary. Databases are a constrained use of text. Binary indexing and binary blog fields are just optimizations. except the user must already know what the column headers are, What headers? You don't need headers in text logs. You want a date? You search for a date. Don't seem to be successful finding a date, look at the log and you'll see the dates that are there, and then you know what the grep command should look like. On the other hand, if you need to see some log where you wrote out that the number of pink elephant toy queries seems to be greater than the number of Pooh-Bear towel queriess, and the managers think that is meaningful because it probably means the customers this week have been from a particular neighborhood, and they want to adjust the signs and in-store sales accordingly, what columns in your log database tell you that? And again, what columns do you look at when the whole system dies before it can get up far enough to write to the log database?
Re: Irony
On 8/15/14, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:47 AM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:11:19 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: When you're grep- or sed-searching a textual log file, you don't care whether all the log entries fit any particular relation or structure definition, and you don't have to think sideways to search on the keywords buried in the text of the actual log entry. Of course you think sideways... Step 1. Choose a log to view Mixed logs. What then? I think we are meant to create an SQL view then, so we cmd line administrator types can still grep the whole sql db with a single command. Step 2. Decide which time frame you want to view. Maybe I don't want to limit to a particular time frame, especially when I'm trying to debug a problem which has been slowly corrupting the loggin database for I don't know how long. You're right, not possible with SQL. Step 3. Decide which column is important to you. What columns? Who defined those columns? Why do I have to do a database design on all the unforeseeable sets of conditions that I will want to log, many not errors or even warnings, with all the information I want to log about them, before I can start coding and debugging the application so that I can find out what I want to log? Perhaps error code and message would cover all cases? Dont' know that's possible with SQL. But AnyWay, I admit, that might still be more complicated than is worth poking a stick at, when grep works just fine... And, again, what happens when a watchdog daemon can't get a socket (heaven forbid a port) to the error logging daemon and wants to log that fact? Now we're back to log files and we might just as well have stuck with them in the first place. You should probably have fail over databases, with a watchdog system monitoring th... oh, that's what you're asking? And if management wants them in a database, dump them to a database after you can scan through them to get an idea of any specific columns you want to define other than the free-form text bucket at the end. But keep the logs in files and generate the database from the files, otherwise, you're going to be stuck trying to log the fact that you can't log because your database function is down or not yet up, and that's going to happen a lot more often than trying to log the fact that your file system is so corrupt you can't write the logs. Dunno about that. Perhaps a NoSQL database? These are all relational searches. You can design them, after the fact, as relational searches. And if your design is good, it will catch a lot of similar searches. But you still have to write down the queries if you want to use them again, just like you have to write down the more complex grep queries if you want to use them again. So we're up to 1-1, text file and sql? The fact that you decide as a human does not make the data non-relational. Actually, the mathematician in me says, yes it does. No mathematical model truly captures anything from the real world. Ahh, the truth, the absolute truth. Now we're on solid ground, unshakable ground :) It should be very clear that log data are strongly relational. Especially, if I might add, just briefly add though, since I don't want to take up too much time here just commenting in any sort of unnecessary sort of way, so I do hope you understand. Whoops, got lost there. Let's try again. Esepcially, if I might add, those binary blobs that systemd caters for. Only if there is a large text bucket at the end of most records. We can't do a time-sequenced third relation joining errors and words in the error? (Time sequenced so we can still reconstruct the error message of course.) They conform to all the ideas regarding relational data, Consistent data types, consistent field widths, limited set of data types, non free-form textual data, no repeating fields (alright, this last one probably applies)? and you follow relational logic to retrieve the parred down snippet of data you wish to view. What, like the message reconstruction technique to de-normalise a fully normalized message? Only after you have had time to go back, analyze a few months or years of logs, and design a database that fits. and then new software, new systems come along, and the efficient non-free-form-text-bucked data structure changes yet again? As far as keywords go, which column in an apache log shows the referrer? You don't know unless you can see my httpd configuration files, unless I happen not to have customized the error logs very much. (And, yes, I sometimes heavily customize the apache logs to emphasize stuff that needs to be seen in a specific application while debugging a specific Perfect use for normalized tables and reports! You could even run them through colorize I use grep) to add color to your text reports! problem. Then I change
Re: Irony
On 8/15/14, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. PS, I forgot my sig: Be careful where you fail to see comedy. You heart may be in need of some. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnss_50cmcpsrdcd0deu5ikyru3wf38mf4-_ecdhkues...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On 2014-08-12, Celejar cele...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 16:46:38 -0500 John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote: Charles Kroeger writes: You know what they say, If you're not a communist when you're young, there's something wrong with your heart. Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. FTR, it's not clear that Churchill actually said it, and it is pretty clear that versions of it predate him: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374518 Also note that the British meaning of liberal is different from its meaning in the US, and was even more so in the early 20th century. So the quotation wouldn't have had the same resonance that it might have to a modern reader. Moreover, Churhcill defected from the Liberal party to the Conservative party, and then back again. But that's another story. -- Liam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnlume0e.4sc.liam.p.otoole@dipsy.tubbynet
Re: Irony
On Wednesday 13 August 2014 11:03:58 Liam O'Toole wrote: Also note that the British meaning of liberal is different from its meaning in the US, and was even more so in the early 20th century. As has been shown by the original quote's referring to communists. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408131413.25958.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Wednesday 13 August 2014 11:03:58 Liam O'Toole wrote: Moreover, Churhcill defected from the Liberal party to the Conservative party, and then back again. T'other way round. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408131414.04017.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 09:10:19PM +0200, Slavko wrote: Ahoj, Dňa Mon, 11 Aug 2014 18:01:05 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz napísal: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. ^ I agree, people need only: - to eat - to drink - to respire and - to sleep - all others are want. That was written in the context of what are the users needs with REGARDS to an operating system. I suggest the wording has already been carefully discussed and debated. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140813134904.GI3182@tal
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:19:09AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:09:24PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. What does a marriage counselor know about software development? You should instead ask the marriage counselor what happens if one partner confuses wants with needs. You're the one who decided to use marriage as a metaphor. It cuts both ways. It was you who started talking about marriage counselors. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140813135339.GJ3182@tal
Re: Irony
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Charles Kroeger ckro...@frankensteinface.com wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:50:02 +0200 Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: Debian isn't as special as you think, at least not from this perspective. Everybody earns money and needs money in this development. Organizations like Debian go forward by people with jobs volunteering time and expertise. As I said in the part of my email that you snipped out, I know of three distributions that employ developers and therefore Debian isn't special because it's put together by volunteers. It's special because it has a large number of derivatives and because of the DFSG. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sw=J=xwy4ef5qcx+b_vstjvac+zqnskj8nnlmzswph...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 23:50:02 +0200 John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote: Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. Hummm..that's interesting I lived in Britain for 13 years from the late 60's through the seventies and heard that expression a lot but no one ever attributed it to Churchill. This is probably why Churchill was quietly retired soon after the war. Everett Dirksen a Republican (not a conservative) party member in the US during the 50's and 60's was credited with saying: Stronger than any army is an idea whose time has come..but he acquired his wisdom from Victor Hugo who lived through most of the 19th century who said: no force on earth is more powerful than an idea whose time has come. (don't bother correcting me, I know there are many variations. -- CK The Internet what a place -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c519lsfmvu...@mid.individual.net
Re: Irony
On 2014-08-13, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday 13 August 2014 11:03:58 Liam O'Toole wrote: Moreover, Churhcill defected from the Liberal party to the Conservative party, and then back again. T'other way round. Lisi Oops, you are correct. I meant to write that his political trajectory was Conservative - Liberal - Conservative. Either way, it serves to discredit the attribution of the quote to Churchill! -- Liam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnlungs6.8mc.liam.p.otoole@dipsy.tubbynet
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:19:09AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:09:24PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. What does a marriage counselor know about software development? You should instead ask the marriage counselor what happens if one partner confuses wants with needs. You're the one who decided to use marriage as a metaphor. It cuts both ways. It was you who started talking about marriage counselors. I'd say that you opened the window to the comment, since you talked about the difference between perceptions of needs and wants in a marriage, and pointed out that, invariably, when there's an argument, at least one party in the argument insists that his views of needs is correct and the other's claims are just wants. Maybe that's not what you intended, but anyone who has tried to help friends or family when marriages start falling apart recognize the symptoms. Now, I don't know what the attitude towards getting professional help is in New Zealand. In America, when an argument about needs vs. wants on a single topic drags on for a year or more, friends usually suggest professional or semi-professional help. In Japan, admitting to seeking help seems to be a source of embarrassment, and suggesting it an insult. (But that view is changing a little bit, lately.) I refrained from this allegory before, but I'll go ahead and use it: When one partner decides that a new technique needs to be experimented with, and the other is not sanguine to the experience, in the US, it can be cause for criminal rape charges. If that's too close for comfort, consider this: parents in the US who force their ideologies on their children can be charged with criminal abuse. Really, the whole idea that we have some chattel relationship between the devs and the users in debian is entirely inappropriate, just as it is in families. A four-four draw in the technical committees should have been a call to open the discussion to a wider user base, not a call for one member of the committee to make an arbitrary decision. Things are not functioning correctly up there, even if we ignore the Social Contract. Technical issues cannot be claimed to be inherently superior to social issues in any system that is in regular, direct use by humans, especially when such technical claims become the basis for unilateral action. Such claims are indication of hubris at best, and blind ego in this case. (Compare the abusive parent or spouse.) Now, in truth, I picked up Fedora only because I was having trouble understanding the unwritten rules in play in openbsd. Couldn't read the docs and come to the same conclusions as the others on the misc@ list, so I decided I needed a bit of education, and debian was suggested. But we were using RedHat at work, so I picked up Fedora. I dropped Fedora and came over to debian because of the systemd business. I've seen power abuse in political processes in local governments, and I recognized both inappropriate political processes and abuses in play as I watched it play out. But that was okay, because I needed to pick up debian. And now I'm motivated to return to openbsd, which is also all to the good. I've got an old laptop up right now, and am running through the afterboot man page and finding myself understanding it much better than fifteen years ago. And the init system was one of the places in openbsd that I could follow the examples but couldn't really understand what I was doing. But I understand it now. I can see the reasons for things that were not at all obvious back then. (And I find myself wondering why on earth anyone would want to use anything so redundant and overblown as systemd.) I could say more, but I think it would not be constructive at this point. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNXb_osgn5ask3F_StkMHwB6j4=mgrlwjzvky7jf-w...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On 8/13/14, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 09:10:19PM +0200, Slavko wrote: Ahoj, Dňa Mon, 11 Aug 2014 18:01:05 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz napísal: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. ^ I agree, people need only: - to eat - to drink - to respire and - to sleep - all others are want. That was written in the context of what are the users needs with REGARDS to an operating system. I suggest the wording has already been carefully discussed and debated. Eaudour Contraire! There is amble room for much more nitpicking and linguistic deconstructionism. Dear Chris, you are simply not trying hard enough. We do NOT have enough percision around these parts! And really, you should have put quotes around what are the users needs since otherwise it is gramatically dubious and lacking in a reasonable flow - speaking of context :) We're certainly not missing for dead horses - you need to open your eyes brother. Sorry, that's open your eyes, brother. (I forgot the comma in the first instance there, so thought I'd add it in... couldn't bare to be so slopy.) Best regards, Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSSGC1fPk=jjxawn9v_zpatj2zv-fhne0m1gozncc4m...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Charles Kroeger ckro...@frankensteinface.com wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 21:50:01 +0200 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Yes you're right, that's what makes Debian special, passion always trumps money. Are there any distros that have salaried developers other than SUSE, RHEL, and Ubuntu? Debian isn't as special as you think, at least not from this perspective. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=sx_kvojqkxxcw6zftxvjl2u0rknboaeruugswfb7r9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:50:02 +0200 Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: Debian isn't as special as you think, at least not from this perspective. Everybody earns money and needs money in this development. Organizations like Debian go forward by people with jobs volunteering time and expertise. I knew for instance in Amarillo, Brad Hughes, when he lived there. He was a kid that was working as an electrical contractor's apprentice. He came to one of the few LUG meetings we had in the late 1990,s and demonstrated Black Box. and helped us installed it on our big desktop computers. He wasn't paid to do that but I suspect it helped get him his job at Trolltech. (QT) The man in Toronto who I'm not going to mention because, I write him some with problems who was patient enough to help me with the Nvidia GLX driver back in 2008. when it didn't build its own module and run depmod like it does now. He has a good job, it isn't about money, time maybe. This is why it's important to keep Debian 'free.' This makes it attractive to talented people who still have their hearts in the right place. (You know what they say, If you're not a communist when you're young, there's something wrong with your heart. I think this statement came out of a system that used to educate its promising youth. Some systems are broken so it's hard to have a heart if you're ignorant and admire John Galt but never read his manifesto) This was the reason Debian was created. By maintaining a sensible level of free software without becoming hysterical over the non-free repositories. I'm sure Debian will continue to flourish like all these .orgs they get a lot of donations and legacies over time and if corruption and excessive ideology stays out of the group that steers and runs Debian development, the distribution will flourish which it continues to do, actually, or I wouldn't be using it -- CK signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Irony
Charles Kroeger writes: You know what they say, If you're not a communist when you're young, there's something wrong with your heart. Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87mwb95qkh@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Irony
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 17:06:44 -0400 Charles Kroeger ckro...@frankensteinface.com wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:50:02 +0200 Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: Debian isn't as special as you think, at least not from this perspective. Everybody earns money and needs money in this development. Organizations like Debian go forward by people with jobs volunteering time and expertise. I knew for instance in Amarillo, Brad Hughes, when he lived there. He was a kid that was working as an electrical contractor's apprentice. He came to one of the few LUG meetings we had in the late 1990,s and demonstrated Black Box. and helped us installed it on our big desktop computers. He wasn't paid to do that but I suspect it helped get him his job at Trolltech. (QT) A guy from GoLUG in Orlando maintained a Free Software Blackberry app for years. Then one day, based on his Blackberry expertise, a Silicon Valley company hired him. One other thing: I think the most prominent way that I, and most others, get paid is by using the Free Software, both the stuff we wrote, and other peoples' stuff. I use VimOutliner every day (which, for unfortunate reasons, I might need to fork). I created VimOutliner in 2001, and licensed it GPL2. A bunch of people came along and improved it far beyond any improvements my capabilities. My pay was having the fastest outliner a touch-typist could ever have, with basically all the features I wanted (because those few other guys didn't put in, I did). Every book I've written since 2001 started out as a VimOutliner outline. Here are some of my writings about the free software author's pay: * http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200310/200310.htm * http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/free_software_philosophy.htm In this email my comments are relevant to how free software developers are rewarded, and should not in any way be interpreted as an endorsement of Capitalism, Communism, Meritocracy, or any other politically motivated method of organization. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812175728.65764...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 16:46:38 -0500 John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote: Charles Kroeger writes: You know what they say, If you're not a communist when you're young, there's something wrong with your heart. Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. FTR, it's not clear that Churchill actually said it, and it is pretty clear that versions of it predate him: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374518 John Hasler Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812192534.af88ee7421259e539172e...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
I wrote: Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. Celejar writes: FTR, it's not clear that Churchill actually said it, Then it must have been Mark Twain. Every aphorism in the English language has been attributed to one of those two, except for those known to be from Shakespeare. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87iolx5is4@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Irony
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 19:34:51 -0500 John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote: I wrote: Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. Celejar writes: FTR, it's not clear that Churchill actually said it, Then it must have been Mark Twain. Every aphorism in the English language has been attributed to one of those two, except for those known to be from Shakespeare. ;) Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812204153.bc8df91e82e53efecd320...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
John Hasler wrote: I wrote: Churchill: If you're not a liberal when you're young there's something wrong with your heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old there's something wrong with your brain. Celejar writes: FTR, it's not clear that Churchill actually said it, Then it must have been Mark Twain. Every aphorism in the English language has been attributed to one of those two, except for those known to be from Shakespeare. Or Francis Bacon :-) -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53eaba2e.20...@meetinghouse.net
Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Think again. Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. Ask any married couple what strife this can cause. :) -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811060105.GP10868@tal
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Think again. Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. Ask any married couple what strife this can cause. :) Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43ipwrq7xz2k5wzdjrnfx+tky9+necn5c+o-xc7a669v...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On 8/10/14, Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote: Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 9 Aug 2014 23:49:37 +0100 Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk napísal: On Sat 09 Aug 2014 at 16:47:54 -0400, AW wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. This is the second thread on the same topic started by the OP in a month. I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. There are tiers of users. There's the users who are not developers. There's the users who are developers. Then there's me. Since I am at the top of the hierarchy, what I say goes, and we shall package systemd to the exclusion of other inits. That _should_ be end of discussion. Thanks :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnsth49zfjvsgmf0nzgk4z+m5wmepcdaurrkhvxdwmpd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. Recently I heared on TV a words of a historic Christian missionary, if you lough to Devil, you lose ability to be in delight with Jesus. I took them very seriously. Kind regards SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- http://markorandjelovic.hopto.org Please make your donation for humanitarian aid for flood victims in Serbia: http://www.floodrelief.gov.rs/eng/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811083045.31e89...@sbb.rs
Re: Irony
koanhead writes: On 08/10/2014 10:30 AM, Steve Litt wrote: For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. Fine, that suits perfectly my needing!. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. Did it install automatically something else to manage the boot? I'm not a particular fan nor partisan of systemd. I have used (and supported) it in the past on various servers. Hmmm. I see systemd more a client-machine-with-frequent-changes tool rather than a server tool: - server should not change this often - server should not boot this often While it is fine to give a good solution to boot time dependencies, recomputing them at each boot makes sense if you think that the machine will face changes (network, attached HW) at each boot. Else you should cache your computation results. I think systemd-as-default is wrong for Debian if only because it's Linux-only (and therefore not Universal) but I do find it good that Debian supports systemd. systemd could stop Linux from being a Unix replacement o spur an innovation in the Unix world that could even lead to something smarter. I don't know which one will happen. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21480.25498.928727.516...@mail.eng.it
Re: Irony
Zenaan Harkness writes: There are tiers of users. There's the users who are not developers. There's the users who are developers. Then there's me. Since I am at the top of the hierarchy, Uh, you are from down under, aren't you? That could explain this perfectly. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21480.25667.168993.501...@mail.eng.it
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:19:00 -0700 koanhead ak...@freegeekseattle.org wrote: On 08/10/2014 10:30 AM, Steve Litt wrote: ... I have a philosophical problem with systemd, I suspect it will cause problems, my fallback is OpenBSD (or maybe Debian/kFreeBSD, thanks Reco) For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. I'm not a particular fan nor partisan of systemd. I have used (and supported) it in the past on various servers. I think systemd-as-default is wrong for Debian if only because it's Linux-only (and therefore not Universal) but I do find it good that Debian supports systemd. I've set up this systemd-less box mostly to show that it can be done. It can. It's not even difficult. To the best of my knowledge, it is still necessary for a human to decide to boot with systemd. One of my sid systems, fully updated in the last week, is still on init. There are three that I know are running systemd, I explicitly added the switch to the kernel boot parameters to make this happen. I do not believe it happens automatically yet. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811083417.3d506...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Irony
On 8/11/14, Marko Randjelovic mark...@sbb.rs wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. Recently I heared on TV a words of a historic Christian missionary, if you lough to Devil, you lose ability to be in delight with Jesus. I took them very seriously. Kind regards I do think sd-daemon(3) is a little anti-Christian, but I see the light in the rest of systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caosgnsrscv3rtnzo8zfx18bhfvxvzbftj4quta0gcf5zc0x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
Le 10.08.2014 19:08, Steve Litt a écrit : On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 10:51:30 +0400 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Consider switching to the Debian/kFreeBSD. It's the same Debian, yet there won't be no systemd in the foreseeable future. Reco Is Debian/kFreeBSD ready for prime time yet? Can you install all the same software as with regular Debian? Is there a network install for Debian/kFreeBSD? This might be a great alternative. I would have switched to FreeBSD years ago, except they are always changing their package manager, which often requires knowledge of an undocumented uri, and I've found that sometimes using both Ports and their package manager of the month can screw up the whole installation. But that's not an issue if I have the Debian package manager. Thanks for the info. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance Give it a try and you'll know. I will only say that, virtualbox is not supported as well as on Debian kLinux, so if you intend to run it on a virtual computer without having to tinker, it's probable that you should avoid virtualbox. Note that I did **not** had time to tinker enough, it's, for now, only a simple try that I gave. Oh, and if you go for virtualbox try, avoid the testing release of Debian, it was not able to achieve the installation here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/134e04cb024abaa8529cfa2c78bce...@neutralite.org
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:09:24PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Think again. Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. Ask any married couple what strife this can cause. :) Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. What does a marriage counselor know about software development? You should instead ask the marriage counselor what happens if one partner confuses wants with needs. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014085639.GO1063@tal
Re: Irony
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 08:35:47AM +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: Zenaan Harkness writes: There are tiers of users. There's the users who are not developers. There's the users who are developers. Then there's me. Since I am at the top of the hierarchy, Uh, you are from down under, aren't you? That could explain this perfectly. Just make him a vegemite sandwich that'll keep him quiet. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014085825.GP1063@tal
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On 8/11/14, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:09:24PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Think again. Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. Ask any married couple what strife this can cause. :) Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. What does a marriage counselor know about software development? You should instead ask the marriage counselor what happens if one partner confuses wants with needs. Then there's those partners that want needs confused. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSRYFHsr=hyukqob5vcqt-jspn8h5mrgevk2axayuno...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
On 8/11/14, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 08:35:47AM +0200, sa...@eng.it wrote: Zenaan Harkness writes: There are tiers of users. There's the users who are not developers. There's the users who are developers. Then there's me. Since I am at the top of the hierarchy, Uh, you are from down under, aren't you? That could explain this perfectly. Just make him a vegemite sandwich that'll keep him quiet. That's Vegemite to you! Imbecile. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQ1u9xe=2GxvXE8j6kMoU2Y-NJWKg=mhucdsx+hhxu...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
Joe wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:19:00 -0700 koanhead ak...@freegeekseattle.org wrote: For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. To the best of my knowledge, it is still necessary for a human to decide to boot with systemd. One of my sid systems, fully updated in the last week, is still on init. There are three that I know are running systemd, I explicitly added the switch to the kernel boot parameters to make this happen. I do not believe it happens automatically yet. So how does this work now that udev is merged with systemd? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e8c8bf.5040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:09:24PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Think again. Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. Ask any married couple what strife this can cause. :) Well, yeah, but ask any marriage counselor what tends to happen when one partner decides arbitrarily what the other needs. What does a marriage counselor know about software development? You should instead ask the marriage counselor what happens if one partner confuses wants with needs. You're the one who decided to use marriage as a metaphor. It cuts both ways. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iN6AJB92eDwzC+wg4=29jxar1o37ptej1z4ggt9_e_...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Social Contract (was ... Re: Irony)
Ahoj, Dňa Mon, 11 Aug 2014 18:01:05 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz napísal: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:37:24AM +0200, Slavko wrote: Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software ^ Needs NOT wants --- there's a HUGE difference. ^ I agree, people need only: - to eat - to drink - to respire and - to sleep - all others are want. Which from before mentioned needs are these, that Debian care about? IMO, not all words can be used only as words. BTW, i am married more than 20 years, then i don't need to ask ;-) regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Irony
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:44:31 -0400 Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: Joe wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:19:00 -0700 koanhead ak...@freegeekseattle.org wrote: For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. To the best of my knowledge, it is still necessary for a human to decide to boot with systemd. One of my sid systems, fully updated in the last week, is still on init. There are three that I know are running systemd, I explicitly added the switch to the kernel boot parameters to make this happen. I do not believe it happens automatically yet. So how does this work now that udev is merged with systemd? No idea, but this is a sid updated today, ps aux | grep init returns pid 1, /sbin/init. I have systemd, systemd-sysv, and sysvinit installed but not sysvinit-core. Systemd is certainly running, along with systemd-udevd, systemd-logind and systemd-journald and no doubt has its metaphorical fingers in a great many other pies, but it isn't in charge of boot yet. I'm not actually bothered, but I thought I'd hold one machine back as a control. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811202124.1c8ff...@jretrading.com
Re: Irony
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 08:21:24PM +0100, Joe wrote: No idea, but this is a sid updated today, ps aux | grep init returns pid 1, /sbin/init. I have systemd, systemd-sysv, and sysvinit installed but not sysvinit-core. Systemd is certainly running, along with systemd-udevd, So you’re running systemd as PID 1. systemd-sysv is used to divert the old /sbin/init to systemd as you can see from the package description: This package provides the manual pages and links needed for systemd to replace sysvinit. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 21:50:01 +0200 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Yes you're right, that's what makes Debian special, passion always trumps money. Look what happened to M$. I happen to know directly a certain person who works for a software company in Toronto and he writes patches for the Nvidia GLX driver pro bono publico. Of course there's money involved in Debian we're not stupid romantics but I'm just saying there's a lot of youthful desire to show off too, like artist, and Debian is a global platform for that, if you've got the ability. No corporation can long stand up to that kind of forward motion. Debian's where it's at. -- CK -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c4sjvsfntb...@mid.individual.net
Re: Irony
On 08/10/2014 11:40 PM, sa...@eng.it wrote: koanhead writes: For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd... All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. Did it install automatically something else to manage the boot? It did not, because sysvinit was already present. Before I removed all the systemd components I had already taken steps to keep sysvinit as pid1. This installation is 2 years old, and never had systemd managing its boot. If someone intends to go systemd-free on a new jessie install, that person will have to do different things from what I have done. I *think* all that's necessary is to install the sysvinit package, and then remove all the systemd things. I don't know, and given the changing nature of jessie I won't be able to determine any exact sequence of steps until after the freeze. I don't intend to compile any such instructions at any time. It's easy enough to figure out, and anyone who can't manage it ought not use testing. I'm not a particular fan nor partisan of systemd. I have used (and supported) it in the past on various servers. Hmmm. I see systemd more a client-machine-with-frequent-changes tool rather than a server tool: - server should not change this often - server should not boot this often While it is fine to give a good solution to boot time dependencies, recomputing them at each boot makes sense if you think that the machine will face changes (network, attached HW) at each boot. Else you should cache your computation results. This makes sense to me, but the systems I was supporting were not provisioned by me and so the use of systemd was not my decision. I would not choose it in most cases but am perfectly willing to work with it when it's already there. In my experience systemd provides some advantages, including good troubleshooting tools. I think systemd-as-default is wrong for Debian if only because it's Linux-only (and therefore not Universal) but I do find it good that Debian supports systemd. systemd could stop Linux from being a Unix replacement o spur an innovation in the Unix world that could even lead to something smarter. I don't know which one will happen. My crystal ball is also cloudy on this point. I don't know what effect systemd will have on the future of Linux, but I do feel that it's not ideal for the present of Debian. In general I disapprove of adopting defaults which don't work with all kernels on all architectures Debian supports. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lsb7ce$3sc$1...@news.albasani.net
Re: Irony
Hi. On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Consider switching to the Debian/kFreeBSD. It's the same Debian, yet there won't be no systemd in the foreseeable future. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140810105130.b8e194270bd1187e3526e...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
Ahoj, Dňa Sat, 9 Aug 2014 23:49:37 +0100 Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk napísal: On Sat 09 Aug 2014 at 16:47:54 -0400, AW wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. This is the second thread on the same topic started by the OP in a month. I consider these posts as not OT. Consider Debian social contract: Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. Where is better place to tell, what are the Debian user's needs, as the Debian users ML? The Debian take care about not discriminating the women, gays and lesbians, etc. Then, please, do not discriminate the non systemd fans. Is here a group of users, which can appreciate the systemd? OK, they will be supported. Is here group of users, which don't need/want the systemd? OK too, but they need to be supported too, especially in switching time. But now it seems, that there is support (not only technical) for the first group only. Then it is needed to tell, what are user's interests... BTW: I am testing the systemd for some time. Despite some problems on my desktop machine, in my virtual environment all works without big problems. From these threads (which you are considering as OT) i learn and understand what are advantages of the systemd. But i can see more and more, that the systemd have no advantages for my small and simple environments and the SysV (with all it's problems) fulfills my needing. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Irony
On 09/08/14 22:26, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. Why not have another go at starting a contentious thread? I am rapidly gaining the impression that slitt is no more than a (rather clever) troll, and as such should not be fed. -- Tony van der Hoff | mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Ariège, France | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e72cae.60...@vanderhoff.org
Re: Irony
On Sunday 10 August 2014 08:37:24 Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. No-one said that they were OT. Merely that this list is about Debian in general, not only systemd, and the subject has been done to death. If some of you don't like it, write the software you want. Or pay someone to write it. But enough already. The developers are volunteers to whom we should be very grateful. Like the rest of us, they do what they want to do. If it doesn't satisfy you, pay someone to do what you want them to do. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408100937.10383.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 4:47 PM, AW debian.list.trac...@1024bits.com wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. There remains only a few holdouts from the major distributions: Gentoo and Slackware. So, give 'em a go... Gentoo can be installed with either openrc or systemd. Gentoo stable tracks upstream systemd more closely than Debian unstable does. If you want to use Gnome, the only supported init is systemd. There's a force-openrc (I'm not sure of the wording but it's close to this) USE variable for Gnome users who insist on using openrc but it's unsupported. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=syqekrqptzqp+xospdhsvacbwz8pjzzrwz5jglrypf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
If some of you don't like it, write the software you want. Or pay someone to write it. But enough already. Doesn't guarantee that Debian will decide to use it. I think the right way is to submit bug-reports about particular problems you find in systemd. Maybe that won't cause a change to something else, but it might solve the actual problems (other than personal dislike). Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/jwv8umwxux1.fsf-monnier+gmane.linux.debian.u...@gnu.org
Re: Irony
On Sunday 10 August 2014 15:50:29 Stefan Monnier wrote: If some of you don't like it, write the software you want. Or pay someone to write it. But enough already. Doesn't guarantee that Debian will decide to use it. No - but the individuals concerned can. I think the right way is to submit bug-reports about particular problems you find in systemd. Maybe that won't cause a change to something else, but it might solve the actual problems (other than personal dislike). Those whom I was addressing don't want to solve the problems. They want Debian to give in to their demands. What you are suggesting is indeed more productive and achievable. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408101559.42431.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 10:51:30 +0400 Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Consider switching to the Debian/kFreeBSD. It's the same Debian, yet there won't be no systemd in the foreseeable future. Reco Is Debian/kFreeBSD ready for prime time yet? Can you install all the same software as with regular Debian? Is there a network install for Debian/kFreeBSD? This might be a great alternative. I would have switched to FreeBSD years ago, except they are always changing their package manager, which often requires knowledge of an undocumented uri, and I've found that sometimes using both Ports and their package manager of the month can screw up the whole installation. But that's not an issue if I have the Debian package manager. Thanks for the info. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140810130827.65fcd...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:37:10 +0100 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 10 August 2014 08:37:24 Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. No-one said that they were OT. Merely that this list is about Debian in general, not only systemd, and the subject has been done to death. Which is the whole point, isn't it. About half the posters on the subject view systemd with something between suspicion and hatred. That's very unusual, and indicates to me that systemd could turn into a problem and an embarrassment. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140810131306.41e31...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 10:26:22 +0200 Tony van der Hoff t...@vanderhoff.org wrote: On 09/08/14 22:26, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. Why not have another go at starting a contentious thread? I am rapidly gaining the impression that slitt is no more than a (rather clever) troll, and as such should not be fed. First, thanks for calling me clever. Yeah, I kind of see your point in calling me a troll: I've basically stated the same set of objections, repeatedly, in several different threads. I have a philosophical problem with systemd, I suspect it will cause problems, my fallback is OpenBSD (or maybe Debian/kFreeBSD, thanks Reco), but I've said these things repeatedly already. So I'll try to hold back until either systemd turns out to be no problem, in which case I'll post saying I was wrong, or it's a problem and I post saying I told you so. And thank you for not calling the subject OT. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140810131918.69988...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On 08/10/2014 04:37 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 10 August 2014 08:37:24 Slavko wrote: I consider these posts as not OT. No-one said that they were OT. Merely that this list is about Debian in general, not only systemd, and the subject has been done to death. If some of you don't like it, write the software you want. Or pay someone to write it. But enough already. The developers are volunteers to whom we should be very grateful. Like the rest of us, they do what they want to do. If it doesn't satisfy you, pay someone to do what you want them to do. Lisi Yes, I agree, the subject has been done to death, without, as I recall, any instruction as to how to bypass or replace systemd. Therefore, useless. On the second point, I must disagree: Unless Debian is different from most Linux distros, a good portion of the software is written by paid developers. I don't know who pays them, but it is nevertheless true. --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e7b1b6.6060...@optonline.net
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 13:08:27 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Is Debian/kFreeBSD ready for prime time yet? Depends on your definition of a prime time. Debian security team updates Debian/kFreeBSD the same time they update all Linux architectures. The bad part is - hardware support is the same as of FreeBSD 9, which is worse than Linux. Can you install all the same software as with regular Debian? All software - no. They took out Linux-specific parts, such as iptables, iproute2, udev, mdadm, lvm2 (there may be more, but these are definitely not in). On a bright side, it features 'native' zfs (I won't consider anything other than Solaris to be native to zfs, still those FreeBSD guys say so). You'll encounter a HUGE PAIN trying to make Adobe Flash work. Same for NVIDIA and ATI proprietary blobs. But - then it comes to a platform-agnostic free software (and it's like 97% of Debian main archive) - it's all there. Is there a network install for Debian/kFreeBSD? See [1] and [2]. [1] http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.6.0/kfreebsd-amd64/iso-cd/ [2] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/wheezy/main/installer-kfreebsd-amd64/current/images/ Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140810220630.6710beeb056a6a2bd95ad...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sunday 10 August 2014 18:53:58 Doug wrote: Unless Debian is different from most Linux distros, a good portion of the software is written by paid developers. I don't know who pays them, but it is nevertheless true. I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Things may get developed at e.g. GSOC, but none-the-less the developers are not in general paid for their Debian work. (Though they may be e.g. Ubuntu developers as well.) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408102040.37189.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 01:00:02 +0200 Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote: honestly, does anyone care why any user chose to change from Ubuntu or if their expectations were met? A skillful writer might weave a soap opera around the unsettling notions of systemd yet always there, an undercurrent of optimism inherent to a vague promise of a better kernel yet seemingly just out of reach as the chorus of writhing users struggle to believe with every episode compounding the dread of another unsettling rumor: the monolith, Microsoft, the systemctl reboot, methane hydrate, and you just won a trip on Malaysia Airlines to see Mt. Fujiyama. -- CK -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c4q00nf5i0...@mid.individual.net
Re: Irony
Lisi, there is no free (of charge) beer. While the distribution is packaged by volunteers - and it's not a small task - not all the code comes from volunteer work o by-product of another work. And many sistem tools come from paid work, included the infamous systemd. Debian is not perfect and neither the maintainers. Systemd is a tool wid pros and design flaws. Debian adoption of systemd was too early, it is uncertain if the udev maintainer will be able to migrate in systemd the behavior of the previous udev package, and this can not be count in the pros. I readed the original post, and if many replies - yours included - were not trolling, they were goblining. -- Gian Uberto Lauri Messaggio inviato da un tablet On 10/ago/2014, at 21:40, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 10 August 2014 18:53:58 Doug wrote: Unless Debian is different from most Linux distros, a good portion of the software is written by paid developers. I don't know who pays them, but it is nevertheless true. I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Things may get developed at e.g. GSOC, but none-the-less the developers are not in general paid for their Debian work. (Though they may be e.g. Ubuntu developers as well.) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201408102040.37189.lisi.re...@gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/036462a4-64da-4097-a0a8-130ffacf6...@eng.it
Re: Irony
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 4:40 AM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 10 August 2014 18:53:58 Doug wrote: Unless Debian is different from most Linux distros, a good portion of the software is written by paid developers. I don't know who pays them, but it is nevertheless true. I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Things may get developed at e.g. GSOC, but none-the-less the developers are not in general paid for their Debian work. (Though they may be e.g. Ubuntu developers as well.) Lisi Not sure if you've kill-filed me at this point, but -- Most of the code in debian is from upstream. The debian team just does a lot of what would be called in the paid world, Quality Control and Integration. (Scare quotes on just because that's a huge load of work that gets fed back upstream, benefiting the entire community.) Most, well, more than half, of the upstream is done by paid developers now -- IBM, RedHat, Microsoft, Oracle, Google, et. al., plus a horde of small companies who owe their existence to free/libre and open-source software. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPva=qn9ykikc94lqjryh0qzvsbjjn1vq27na8gow2...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Irony
Lisi Reisz wrote: I had understood that Debian is in this, as in many things, different from most Linux distros. Things may get developed at e.g. GSOC, but none-the-less the developers are not in general paid for their Debian work. (Though they may be e.g. Ubuntu developers as well.) Many Debian developers do their Debian work as part of their jobs, though I don't know if any do it full time. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87tx5j7r5f@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Irony
On 08/10/2014 10:30 AM, Steve Litt wrote: ... I have a philosophical problem with systemd, I suspect it will cause problems, my fallback is OpenBSD (or maybe Debian/kFreeBSD, thanks Reco) For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. I'm not a particular fan nor partisan of systemd. I have used (and supported) it in the past on various servers. I think systemd-as-default is wrong for Debian if only because it's Linux-only (and therefore not Universal) but I do find it good that Debian supports systemd. I've set up this systemd-less box mostly to show that it can be done. It can. It's not even difficult. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ls9cn5$m22$1...@news.albasani.net
Re: Irony
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:19:00 -0700 koanhead ak...@freegeekseattle.org wrote: On 08/10/2014 10:30 AM, Steve Litt wrote: ... I have a philosophical problem with systemd, I suspect it will cause problems, my fallback is OpenBSD (or maybe Debian/kFreeBSD, thanks Reco) For the record, in case anyone is interested, I'm writing this from a Jessie box without systemd. It's easy to make this happen, and it works just fine as long as you don't use GNOME or MATE, possibly KDE, or those functions of other DEs that require a systemd component. All I did was use aptitude interactively to remove systemd-* and then review and adjust the solutions as necessary. Nothing broke or caught fire. I'm not a particular fan nor partisan of systemd. I have used (and supported) it in the past on various servers. I think systemd-as-default is wrong for Debian if only because it's Linux-only (and therefore not Universal) but I do find it good that Debian supports systemd. I've set up this systemd-less box mostly to show that it can be done. It can. It's not even difficult. Thank you. I appreciate it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811010205.10c1f...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Irony
Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140809162640.1a94f...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Irony
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. SteveT A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. There remains only a few holdouts from the major distributions: Gentoo and Slackware. So, give 'em a go... However, I've spent a significant time over the last few days relearning much of what I thought I knew about rsyslog, what I knew I didn't know about systemd, and musing about what the future may hold... And I gotta say, I might have agreed with you several months ago -- but I no longer do... Systemd is going to take over, because it's - well - better than what existed in the past. And that's also what open source is about -- a meritocracy. I also learned that rsyslog, syslog-ng and company have had sql logging capability all along... silly me! I should just learn to look more thoroughly at what I have in front of me... and, I'm sure, if you take a good honest look at the whole of systemd and what the team is attempting, you'll come over to the dark-side as well... BTW, we have cookies. --Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140809164754.2d1b8b6f2f5ce99bc45e8...@1024bits.com
Re: Irony
On Sat 09 Aug 2014 at 16:47:54 -0400, AW wrote: On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 16:26:40 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, Some of the reasons I switched my desktop from Ubuntu to Debian were: 1) To do more config by editor and less by magical binary program. 2) To get rid of gratuitous boot gunge (in this case Plymouth) 3) To get closer to the Unix Philosophy Within months of my switch, oops, here comes systemd. Sometimes, you just have to laugh. SteveT A new thread... I chase this one, knowing full well that convincing anyone of anything is nearly impossible. This is the second thread on the same topic started by the OP in a month. https://lists.debian.org/20140705142557.3b9a1...@mydesq2.domain.cxm That spawned 200+ replies, none of which has apparently satisfied the OP's appetite for further exposure. There is another OP thread on the same topic in the archives from earlier in the year, or late last year. The need for anyone to offer anything convincing in reply to this latest off-topic and self-serving post is minimal; its content is effectively zero. The technical aspects of systemd as they affect Debian users are in line with the aims of this list. Even an occasional complaint is acceptable. But frequent moaning? And honestly, does anyone care why any user chose to change from Ubuntu or if their expectations were met? A new list could be proposed for this purpose: debian-shoulders-to-cry-on@l.d.o -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140809224936.ga22...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
