Re: Differences between installs (was: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?])

[Curt]

On 2018-07-18, Stefan Monnier  wrote:
>>> I'm of the opinion we're all running different machines with
>>> different sets of software, and this explains that (could be wrong,
>>> though).
>> I was just -so- sure we all had the exact same installs.
>
> All joking aside: I've been maintaining about 4-5 Debian machines, all
> using Debian testing and basically all obtained by cloning and updating
> between them, hence all deriving from my "root" install performed some
> time around 2003 (onto a Thinkpad X30 which I still use, still using
> that same Debian testing).
>
> While most "apt upgrade" are somewhat similar among those machines, I'm
> surprised at how often I notice significant differences.
>

It's the butterfly effect.

-- 
At first I started back, unable to believe that it was indeed I who was
reflected in the mirror; and when I became fully convinced that I was in
reality the monster that I am, I was filled with the bitterest sensations of
despondence and mortification.--Mary Shelley, Frankenstein; or, The Modern 
Prometheus

Differences between installs (was: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?])

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I'm of the opinion we're all running different machines with
>> different sets of software, and this explains that (could be wrong,
>> though).
> I was just -so- sure we all had the exact same installs.

All joking aside: I've been maintaining about 4-5 Debian machines, all
using Debian testing and basically all obtained by cloning and updating
between them, hence all deriving from my "root" install performed some
time around 2003 (onto a Thinkpad X30 which I still use, still using
that same Debian testing).

While most "apt upgrade" are somewhat similar among those machines, I'm
surprised at how often I notice significant differences.


Stefan

Re: A Different Naive Question [Re: Naive newbie question]

[Greg Wooledge]

quoting.
top
Stop

> On Mon, 2018-07-16 at 21:51 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> > Have you looked at lsb-base?

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 05:57:58AM -0500, Austin LaBerta wrote:
> i can neither find the source on salsa (since as far as what i've found
> lsb-base is a stripped down version compared to the actual lsb specs?),
> nor a man entry. It has something to do with logging?

Here's a hint:

wooledg:~$ dpkg -L lsb-base
/.
/lib
/lib/lsb
/lib/lsb/init-functions
/lib/lsb/init-functions.d
/lib/lsb/init-functions.d/20-left-info-blocks
/usr
/usr/share
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/lsb-base
/usr/share/doc/lsb-base/NEWS.Debian.gz
/usr/share/doc/lsb-base/README.Debian.gz
/usr/share/doc/lsb-base/changelog.gz
/usr/share/doc/lsb-base/copyright

Re: A Different Naive Question [Re: Naive newbie question]

[Austin LaBerta]

i can neither find the source on salsa (since as far as what i've found
lsb-base is a stripped down version compared to the actual lsb specs?),
nor a man entry. It has something to do with logging?

I guess thats not very essential, although a breakage could be very
annoying for locating other problems.

On Mon, 2018-07-16 at 21:51 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 08:11:20PM -0500, Octopus Octopus wrote:
> >as  states
> > 
> >For all practical concerns, you should consider the LSB
> > package orphaned (and
> >I should probably just go ahead and orphan it).
> > 
> > 
> >and if a lot of things depend on lsb-base, isn't that like, very
> > very bad?
> >Like 'a critical component of our system has been left
> > completely
> >unmaintained' bad?
> 
> Have you looked at lsb-base?
> 

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Michael Stone]

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 11:00:15PM +0300, Reco wrote:

LSB was more than that. It was a set of standards declaring what you can
find in your typical GNU/Linux system.
LSB was always somewhat controversial when one tried to apply it to any
non-rpm distribution (LSB mandated rpm as package manager), personal
tastes (LSB mandated both Qt and GTK+ installed) or a common sense
(not every server needs CUPS contrary to what they think).
What's true - one does not need LSB if one writes free software. LSB was
designed for all those proprietary software vendors in mind.


It also never worked, so it was never used, which meant it was really 
hard to convince people to spend effort to be compatible with something 
that had no real benefit.


Mike Stone

Re: A Different Naive Question [Re: Naive newbie question]

[Michael Stone]

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 08:11:20PM -0500, Octopus Octopus wrote:

   as  states

   For all practical concerns, you should consider the LSB package orphaned 
(and
   I should probably just go ahead and orphan it).


   and if a lot of things depend on lsb-base, isn't that like, very very bad?
   Like 'a critical component of our system has been left completely
   unmaintained' bad?


Have you looked at lsb-base?

Re: A Different Naive Question [Re: Naive newbie question]

[Octopus Octopus]

On 07/15/2018 10:48 PM, Octopus Octopus wrote:
>
>
>
> On 07/15/2018 08:57 PM, John Crawley wrote:
>> On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?
>>
>> Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
>> 'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.
>
> as  states
>
> For all practical concerns, you should consider the LSB package orphaned 
> (and 
> I should probably just go ahead and orphan it).
>
> and if a lot of things depend on lsb-base, isn't that like, very very
> bad? Like 'a critical component of our system has been left completely
> unmaintained' bad?

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 05:58:20PM +, Curt wrote:
> I'm of the opinion we're all running different machines with different sets of
> software, and this explains that (could be wrong, though).

I was just -so- sure we all had the exact same installs.
;D

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Curt]

On 2018-07-16, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>> 
>> In this particular case the result of 'aptitude why' is misleading, to
>> say the least:
>> 
>> $ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
>> i   grub2Depends  grub-common (= 2.02~beta3-5)
>> i A grub-common  Suggests desktop-base (>= 4.0.6)
>> i A desktop-base Suggests gnome | kde-standard | xfce4 | wmaker
>> p   gnomeDepends  gnome-orca (>= 3.22)
>> p   gnome-orca   Depends  speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)
>
> I get a list in a different format:

I would say your format is the same, but your output is somewhat
different.

>> richard@debian-jan13:~$ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
>> i   task-mate-desktop Recommends gnome-orca
>> i A gnome-orcaDependsspeech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)

curty@einstein:~$ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
i   gdm3   Suggests gnome-orca
i A gnome-orca Depends  speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)

> Can you suggest why?
> I'm running the i386 flavor of Debian 9.
>

I'm of the opinion we're all running different machines with different sets of
software, and this explains that (could be wrong, though).

>


-- 
The superintendent and the gang bosses all turned out with revolvers in black
holsters strapped around their waists and one of them made a speech in English
and another one Sicilian saying that this was a squareshooting concern that had
always treated laborers square and if they didn’t like it they could get the 
hell out. 
--John Dos Passos, 1919 (second book of U.S.A. trilogy)

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/16/2018 08:12 AM, Reco wrote:

Hi.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 02:43:18PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 07:08:34AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]


But it sheds light on this thread's original subject line.
It listed several packages [e.g. speech-dispatcher] for which I have
no apparent need. It will be educational to search out why they were
installed. [...]


I like "aptitude why" for this.


In this particular case the result of 'aptitude why' is misleading, to
say the least:

$ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
i   grub2Depends  grub-common (= 2.02~beta3-5)
i A grub-common  Suggests desktop-base (>= 4.0.6)
i A desktop-base Suggests gnome | kde-standard | xfce4 | wmaker
p   gnomeDepends  gnome-orca (>= 3.22)
p   gnome-orca   Depends  speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)


I get a list in a different format:


richard@debian-jan13:~$ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
i   task-mate-desktop Recommends gnome-orca
i A gnome-orcaDependsspeech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)


Can you suggest why?
I'm running the i386 flavor of Debian 9.

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Brian]

On Mon 16 Jul 2018 at 07:15:25 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 07/16/2018 05:14 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 10:57:32AM +0900, John Crawley wrote:
> > > On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?
> > > 
> > > Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
> > > 'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.
> > 
> > Yes, but in that case installing one of those packages will install
> > lsb-base automatically. Personally, I don't see any reason for the
> > average user to /manually/ install any part of LSB.
> 
> That raises a general question of installer priorities - is it installed by
> default. I need to go re-read installer documentation.

Reading the output of

 apt show lsb-base

is sufficient to answer your question.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 02:43:18PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 07:08:34AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But it sheds light on this thread's original subject line.
> > It listed several packages [e.g. speech-dispatcher] for which I have
> > no apparent need. It will be educational to search out why they were
> > installed. [...]
> 
> I like "aptitude why" for this.

In this particular case the result of 'aptitude why' is misleading, to
say the least:

$ aptitude why speech-dispatcher
i   grub2Depends  grub-common (= 2.02~beta3-5)
i A grub-common  Suggests desktop-base (>= 4.0.6)
i A desktop-base Suggests gnome | kde-standard | xfce4 | wmaker
p   gnomeDepends  gnome-orca (>= 3.22)
p   gnome-orca   Depends  speech-dispatcher (>= 0.8)

Reco

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/16/2018 07:43 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

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On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 07:08:34AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]


But it sheds light on this thread's original subject line.
It listed several packages [e.g. speech-dispatcher] for which I have
no apparent need. It will be educational to search out why they were
installed. [...]


I like "aptitude why" for this.



Educational <*GRIN*>
It was, for me, an inappropriate "recommends" of a package I do use.
The system I'm currently using is intentionally obese. However it is a 
useful data point for my for my "extremely minimalist Debian" project.

Thank you.

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[tomas]

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On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 07:08:34AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> But it sheds light on this thread's original subject line.
> It listed several packages [e.g. speech-dispatcher] for which I have
> no apparent need. It will be educational to search out why they were
> installed. [...]

I like "aptitude why" for this.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/16/2018 05:14 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 10:57:32AM +0900, John Crawley wrote:

On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:

Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?


Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.


Yes, but in that case installing one of those packages will install 
lsb-base automatically. Personally, I don't see any reason for the 
average user to /manually/ install any part of LSB.




That raises a general question of installer priorities - is it installed 
by default. I need to go re-read installer documentation.
When I did 'apt-cache --installed rdepends lsb-base' it showed packages 
which I explicitly use on a daily basis.

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/15/2018 08:57 PM, John Crawley wrote:

On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:

Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?


Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.


Interesting.
But it answers too broad a question - it refers to the universe of 
Debian packages. [~840 hits on my machine]


A more informative {for my purposes} is:
'apt-cache --installed rdepends lsb-base'
It refers to my galaxy of Debian packages. [~40 hits on my machine]

But it sheds light on this thread's original subject line.
It listed several packages [e.g. speech-dispatcher] for which I have no 
apparent need. It will be educational to search out why they were 
installed. I have an ongoing educational project of creating an 
extremely minimalist Debian subset which would my ADL requirements. {If 
you are a physical therapist I mean that ADL ;}

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Darac Marjal]

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 10:57:32AM +0900, John Crawley wrote:

On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:

Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?


Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.


Yes, but in that case installing one of those packages will install 
lsb-base automatically. Personally, I don't see any reason for the 
average user to /manually/ install any part of LSB.


--
For more information, please reread.


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Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[John Crawley]

On 2018-07-16 04:33, Richard Owlett wrote:

Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?


Some ...er, many Debian packages depend on lsb-base.
'apt-cache rdepends lsb-base' for a long list.
--
John

Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[tomas]

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On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 02:33:02PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> Is it of any use to Debian _users_ who *ONLY* use official Debian
> repositories?

It is useful for someone who wants to write a program which shall
run on an LSB-compliant system.

The _users_ profit from that because writing programs for them
becomes easier.

So yes.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 02:33:02PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > What is your suggestion here? Apply the patch I provided (or maybe a
> > > better one), or get rid of lsb-base completely?
> > 
> > Aim to ditch lsb-base in the long run.
> > For here and now I'd used something like 'pgrep -x --ns 1
> > $DAEMON_EXECUTABLE' instead of pidof.
> 
> I didn't know what "lsb-base" was when I read original post.
> Not sure I know now ;/
> Did web search. Found it's an acronym for "Linux Standard Base".

In the context of the original discussion, LSB refers to
/lib/lsb/init-functions provided by lsb-base package.


> Searched.
> Found its purpose was to provide outside programmers a "sane" &/or
> "consistent" target.

LSB was more than that. It was a set of standards declaring what you can
find in your typical GNU/Linux system.
LSB was always somewhat controversial when one tried to apply it to any
non-rpm distribution (LSB mandated rpm as package manager), personal
tastes (LSB mandated both Qt and GTK+ installed) or a common sense
(not every server needs CUPS contrary to what they think).
What's true - one does not need LSB if one writes free software. LSB was
designed for all those proprietary software vendors in mind.

But, they invented Docker, Flatpack and Appimage since then, so LSB is
dead, and good riddance.


> Is it of any use to Debian _users_ who *ONLY* use official Debian
> repositories?

Assuming that said users do not deviate from the Debian default init
system - lsb-base is mostly useless if one's using systemd.
Again, in the context of the original question.


> I know that is a "loaded" question".
> Answers should be "food for thought."
> 
> IOW Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?

The package has 'Priority: required', so I suppose that one *could*
build a bootable Debian installation without it given a sufficient
determination or curiosity.

I, for one, value rsync, smartmontools and rsyslod too much to purge
lsb-base. And let's not forget cron. Any OS is imperfect unless it has
cron.

Reco

Naive newbie question [Re: Debian got too fat?]

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/15/2018 06:44 AM, Reco wrote:

Hi.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 12:16:20PM +0200, Harald Dunkel wrote:

Hi folks,

would you mind to take a look at

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=888743

The fix is pretty easy.


But does not address all the cornercases, IMO.
Consider, for instance, an LXC container which shares root filesystem
with the host.



Whats really bugging me is that nobody
dares to touch the complex code of lsb-base. IMHO this is a clear
indication that Debian lost the blessed path other Unixes do follow.


Agreed. Debian drifted away from LSB several years ago, so the lack of
maintainers' interest is sad, but is to be expected.



What is your suggestion here? Apply the patch I provided (or maybe a
better one), or get rid of lsb-base completely?


Aim to ditch lsb-base in the long run.
For here and now I'd used something like 'pgrep -x --ns 1
$DAEMON_EXECUTABLE' instead of pidof.


I didn't know what "lsb-base" was when I read original post.
Not sure I know now ;/
Did web search. Found it's an acronym for "Linux Standard Base".
Searched.
Found its purpose was to provide outside programmers a "sane" &/or 
"consistent" target.


Is it of any use to Debian _users_ who *ONLY* use official Debian 
repositories?


I know that is a "loaded" question".
Answers should be "food for thought."

IOW Can I a Debian user opt to not install "LSB" without ill effects?

Re: rsync - newbie question

[rhkramer]

On Saturday, May 12, 2018 02:54:53 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
> But you started me thinking about how my use case differs from any
> normal user.

Yup, it appears so. ;-)

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Rick Thomas]

Yes, rsync has a “-x" option, which does the same thing as for cp: it keeps it 
from crossing filesystem boundaries.  If you are using rsync to back up whole 
filesystems, it’s indispensable.

Rick

On May 12, 2018, at 10:50 AM, Tixy  wrote:

> Some commands have options to stop them looking at other filsytsems (cp
> has -x and find has -xdev) I don't know about rsync (I don't have it
> installed).

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Tixy]

On Sat, 2018-05-12 at 13:58 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 05/12/2018 12:50 PM, Tixy wrote:
> > On Sat, 2018-05-12 at 13:28 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >> Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason
> >> you don't sync /proc.
> > 
> > Presumably you meant /sys ?
> > 
> > Basically, the OP probably don't want to try and sync mount points for
> > things that aren't ordinary filesystems and that's quite an extensive
> > and variable list.
> 
> I exclude /media for similar reasons. Or would exclude it anyway?

The command options I was thinking about would stop a command crossing
over into another filesystem. E.g. if my desktop automounts a USB stick
as /media/tixy/disks-label, that directory path would be part of the
root filesystem, but the actual contents of the USB stick that you see
under that path wouldn't be included in the command. So you'd just get
an empty directory with that path (/media/tixy/disks-label).

I googled for rsync man page [1] and it does seem to have the same
option as the cp command for this:

-x, --one-file-system
This tells rsync to avoid crossing a filesystem boundary
when recursing. This does not limit the user's ability to
specify items to copy from multiple filesystems, just rsync's
recursion through the hierarchy of each directory that the user
specified, and also the analogous recursion on the receiving
side during deletion.

I don't know what it is you're trying to achieve. If your intent is to
create an identical copy of a system as some kind of backup, you'll also
need to make sure you copy file permissions, owners and special
attributes, duplicate hardlinks and possibly other things I haven't
thought of. That will require root privileges to execute and the correct
set of commandline options. Looking at that rsync man page I found, that
would be options like -p -X -H. (Note, I haven't used rsync before so
don't rely on my advice too much).

[1] https://linux.die.net/man/1/rsync

-- 
Tixy

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Brian]

On Sat 12 May 2018 at 13:54:53 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I'll keep that in mind.
> But you started me thinking about how my use case differs from any normal
> user.

You would have to put yourself in the thought mode of a normal user
(whatever he is) instead of seeing youself as having special needs
or requirements.

-- 
Brian.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/12/2018 12:50 PM, Tixy wrote:

On Sat, 2018-05-12 at 13:28 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:

Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason
you don't sync /proc.


Presumably you meant /sys ?

Basically, the OP probably don't want to try and sync mount points for
things that aren't ordinary filesystems and that's quite an extensive
and variable list.


I exclude /media for similar reasons. Or would exclude it anyway?



Some commands have options to stop them looking at other filsytsems (cp
has -x and find has -xdev) I don't know about rsync (I don't have it
installed).

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/12/2018 12:48 PM, Hans wrote:

Am Samstag, 12. Mai 2018, 19:37:40 CEST schrieb Richard Owlett:
Please note, the directory is NOT /system, it is /sys.
Juda got a little typo. :)


I won't complain too much. Otherwise peuple will start talking about mine ;/



However, I would avoid /proc, /sys, /tmp and /lost+found

Hint: If you might put /home on another partition, you can easily install or
sync a new system, but leave the user settings. In that case, you should of
course also exclude /home.


I'll keep that in mind.
But you started me thinking about how my use case differs from any 
normal user.




Best

Hans

On 05/12/2018 12:28 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:

Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason
you don't sync /proc.


thank you.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Hans]

Am Samstag, 12. Mai 2018, 19:37:40 CEST schrieb Richard Owlett:
Please note, the directory is NOT /system, it is /sys.
Juda got a little typo. :)

However, I would avoid /proc, /sys, /tmp and /lost+found

Hint: If you might put /home on another partition, you can easily install or 
sync a new system, but leave the user settings. In that case, you should of 
course also exclude /home.

Best 

Hans
> On 05/12/2018 12:28 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason
> > you don't sync /proc.
> 
> thank you.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Tixy]

On Sat, 2018-05-12 at 13:28 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason
> you don't sync /proc.

Presumably you meant /sys ?

Basically, the OP probably don't want to try and sync mount points for
things that aren't ordinary filesystems and that's quite an extensive
and variable list.

Some commands have options to stop them looking at other filsytsems (cp
has -x and find has -xdev) I don't know about rsync (I don't have it
installed).

-- 
Tixy

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/12/2018 12:28 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason 
you don't sync /proc.


thank you.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Jude DaShiell]

On Sat, 12 May 2018, Richard Owlett wrote:


Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 11:54:13
From: Richard Owlett <rowl...@cloud85.net>
To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: rsync - newbie question
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 15:54:40 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 05/12/2018 10:47 AM, Eero Volotinen wrote:

 You should not sync /proc. it's not normal directory

 Eero


Thank you.






--
Another hierarchy in Linux not to sync is /system for the same reason you 
don't sync /proc.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Hans]

Am Samstag, 12. Mai 2018, 17:54:13 CEST schrieb Richard Owlett:
As Eero said, do not sync /proc, you can use the --exclude option.

There is a good description here, how to exclude things:
https://www.thegeekstuff.com/2011/01/rsync-exclude-files-and-folders/?
utm_source=feedburner

Have fun!

Hans

> On 05/12/2018 10:47 AM, Eero Volotinen wrote:
> > You should not sync /proc. it's not normal directory
> > 
> > Eero
> 
> Thank you.

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Eero Volotinen]

You should not sync /proc. it's not normal directory

Eero

la 12. toukok. 2018 klo 18.37 Richard Owlett 
kirjoitti:

> In another thread it was suggested that I use:> rsync -avzh --delete
> -n  
>
> I tried it and got ~200 error messages of form:
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10/task/10/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/101/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/101/task/101/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10146/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10146/task/10146/exe"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10300/cwd"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10300/root"
>
> > file has vanished: "/proc/10300/exe"
>
> Spot checking properties of those showed that although they had multiple
> sub-directories the content was "0 bytes".
>
> Browsing [https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/manpages/proc.5.en.html]
> implied that excluding everything under /proc would be reasonable.
>
> Am I correct?
> TIA
>
>
>

Re: rsync - newbie question

[Richard Owlett]

On 05/12/2018 10:47 AM, Eero Volotinen wrote:

You should not sync /proc. it's not normal directory

Eero


Thank you.

rsync - newbie question

[Richard Owlett]

In another thread it was suggested that I use:> rsync -avzh --delete 
-n  


I tried it and got ~200 error messages of form:


file has vanished: "/proc/10/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/10/task/10/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/101/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/101/task/101/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/10146/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/10146/task/10146/exe"



file has vanished: "/proc/10300/cwd"



file has vanished: "/proc/10300/root"



file has vanished: "/proc/10300/exe"


Spot checking properties of those showed that although they had multiple 
sub-directories the content was "0 bytes".


Browsing [https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/manpages/proc.5.en.html] 
implied that excluding everything under /proc would be reasonable.


Am I correct?
TIA

Re: NEWBIE question Re: static or dynamic /dev

[Richard Owlett]

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net writes:


Roger Leigh wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 05:42:32AM -0700, sting wing wrote:

Question: how does a person know if their /dev is a static or dynamic /dev




% findmnt /dev
TARGET SOURCE   FSTYPE   OPTIONS
/dev   devtmpfs devtmpfs rw,size=249844k,nr_inodes=62461,mode=755

Unless you have taken very special steps to avoid it, you will
always have a dynamic /dev.  This has been the case for many
many years now.  udev uses a tmpfs mounted on /dev (and more
recently a devtmpfs mounted on /dev).

If there's nothing mounted on /dev, then you will have a static
/dev.  However, if using Linux, the chances of having a static
/dev on a contemporary system are vanishingly small--you'd have
to intentionally alter the boot scripts to avoid a dynamic /dev.



What does it mean when /dev is said to be static? dynamic?
What should I be reading about?


Many years ago, /dev was a directory containing entries called special
files (which essentially meant mappings from filenames to device
drivers).  It was the responsibility of the system administrator to make
sure that any time a device was added, a corresponding special file was
added to /dev.  In such a system, /dev is static.

In a modern system, /dev doesn't physically exist on disk at all:  it's
a special kind of filesystem that lives only in the memory of the
computer, called a tmpfs (temporary filesystem).  Daemons detect what
hardware is available, and automatically create the right special files
in this filesystem.  This is a dynamic /dev.




Thank you Joe and Kevin.



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NEWBIE question Re: static or dynamic /dev

[Richard Owlett]

Roger Leigh wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 05:42:32AM -0700, sting wing wrote:

Question: how does a person know if their /dev is a static or dynamic /dev


What does it mean when /dev is said to be static? dynamic?
What should I be reading about?




% findmnt /dev
TARGET SOURCE   FSTYPE   OPTIONS
/dev   devtmpfs devtmpfs rw,size=249844k,nr_inodes=62461,mode=755

Unless you have taken very special steps to avoid it, you will
always have a dynamic /dev.  This has been the case for many
many years now.  udev uses a tmpfs mounted on /dev (and more
recently a devtmpfs mounted on /dev).

If there's nothing mounted on /dev, then you will have a static
/dev.  However, if using Linux, the chances of having a static
/dev on a contemporary system are vanishingly small--you'd have
to intentionally alter the boot scripts to avoid a dynamic /dev.





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Re: NEWBIE question Re: static or dynamic /dev

[Kevin Chadwick]

 What does it mean when /dev is said to be static? dynamic?
 What should I be reading about?

On Linux, static tends to be used on embedded systems for speed and
sanity when you know about all the hardware that will be connected and
don't want anything interfering. OpenBSD has a Makedev script which
builds the nodes.

With dynamic the device nodes are created as needed rather than being
pre-prepared. The fact the filesystem is dynamically sized in ram too is
irrelevent really and simply makes it easier to have a read only root
filesystem.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
___


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Re: NEWBIE question Re: static or dynamic /dev

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net writes:

 Roger Leigh wrote:
 On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 05:42:32AM -0700, sting wing wrote:
 Question: how does a person know if their /dev is a static or dynamic /dev


 % findmnt /dev
 TARGET SOURCE   FSTYPE   OPTIONS
 /dev   devtmpfs devtmpfs rw,size=249844k,nr_inodes=62461,mode=755

 Unless you have taken very special steps to avoid it, you will
 always have a dynamic /dev.  This has been the case for many
 many years now.  udev uses a tmpfs mounted on /dev (and more
 recently a devtmpfs mounted on /dev).

 If there's nothing mounted on /dev, then you will have a static
 /dev.  However, if using Linux, the chances of having a static
 /dev on a contemporary system are vanishingly small--you'd have
 to intentionally alter the boot scripts to avoid a dynamic /dev.


 What does it mean when /dev is said to be static? dynamic?
 What should I be reading about?

Many years ago, /dev was a directory containing entries called special
files (which essentially meant mappings from filenames to device
drivers).  It was the responsibility of the system administrator to make
sure that any time a device was added, a corresponding special file was
added to /dev.  In such a system, /dev is static.

In a modern system, /dev doesn't physically exist on disk at all:  it's
a special kind of filesystem that lives only in the memory of the
computer, called a tmpfs (temporary filesystem).  Daemons detect what
hardware is available, and automatically create the right special files
in this filesystem.  This is a dynamic /dev.


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Re: another Newbie question ldab vs winbind

[Muhammad Yousuf Khan]

any help plz?

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Muhammad Yousuf Khan sir...@gmail.com wrote:
 i have heard people suggest using winbind ( i think it is a kerberos
 base auth ) with samba and ldap with posfix. the question is why.
 it seem more easier when i configure it for freeNAS and openfire XAMPP server.

 My experience with samba and winbind was quite difficult however now
 after configuring it countless times it seems a bit easier to me now
 :P and both are quite stable too.


 but the question is, what is the big difference. why we can not use
 ldap auth for samba or why people do not recommend the stack of bath
 and vice versa.

 the besic idea behind using both is to use Active directory data base
 (in my case only)  (i know ldap can be use for openldap blah blah) in
 this particular case i mean with active directly integration why we do
 not choose just one for every server base application , like
 samba,squid,postfix, openfire,etc .

 please correct me if you see any mistake with my understanding in both
 tools. because my question could be the result of my misunderstanding
 or lack of knowledge

 Thanks


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another Newbie question ldab vs winbind

[Muhammad Yousuf Khan]

i have heard people suggest using winbind ( i think it is a kerberos
base auth ) with samba and ldap with posfix. the question is why.
it seem more easier when i configure it for freeNAS and openfire XAMPP server.

My experience with samba and winbind was quite difficult however now
after configuring it countless times it seems a bit easier to me now
:P and both are quite stable too.


but the question is, what is the big difference. why we can not use
ldap auth for samba or why people do not recommend the stack of bath
and vice versa.

the besic idea behind using both is to use Active directory data base
(in my case only)  (i know ldap can be use for openldap blah blah) in
this particular case i mean with active directly integration why we do
not choose just one for every server base application , like
samba,squid,postfix, openfire,etc .

please correct me if you see any mistake with my understanding in both
tools. because my question could be the result of my misunderstanding
or lack of knowledge

Thanks


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Valery Mamonov]

2012/10/11 houkensjtu houkens...@gmail.com

 Thanks Joe, Brian, Murphy

 As I post above, I forgot to say all these experiments were done in my
 home on my laptop...
 Now I am in my office and re-do all this experiment.
 To be short, now all experiment which is done with ip address works well,
 while if I do ssh USER@DEBIAN, it will say:

 ssh: Could not resolve hostname debian: Name or service not known

 I am wondering, who(or what device,server) will resolve the hostname? Is
 it possible to resolve my laptop's name from my office??

 2012年10月11日木曜日 1時00分03秒 UTC+9 houkensjtu:
  Hi debianer!
 
  I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
 
  Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my
 home) from office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I
 succeeded in opening an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh server on
 my home laptop.
 
 
 
  (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
 
 
  I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
 
 
  1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
 
 
  works well!!
 
 
 
  2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 
  [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
 
 
  I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in test 1!
 
 
 
  3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 
  ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 
  This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1, but
 things just dont work.
 
 
 
  Any one can explain this?
 
 
 
 
 
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Hello. You can use such services as no-ip.com or dyndns.org to create a DNS
A-record for your home external IP-address. This DNS record will be
resolved everywhere.
Also you can modify the 'hosts' file on your work computer (/etc/hosts in
Linux and c:\windows]system32\drivers\etc\hosts in windows) and put the
name of your home computer there. With second approach you'll be able to
resolve the name on your work computer only.

-- 

Best regards,

Valery Mamonov.

newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[houkensjtu]

Hi debianer!
I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my home) from 
office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I succeeded in opening 
an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh server on my home laptop.

(suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)

I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.

1. ssh USER@DEBIAN

works well!!

2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
[my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused

I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in test 1!

3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1, but things 
just dont work.

Any one can explain this?


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Nuno Magalhães]

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

A bit of searching the net on port-forwarding oughta give you the answer.
You probably forgot to forward port 22 on the router to whichever ip
adress your DEBIAN has.
Search around for stuff on your router/ISP combo as they're almost
always blocked in one way or another.


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Joe]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT)
houkensjtu houkens...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi debianer!
 I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
 Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my
 home) from office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I
 succeeded in opening an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh
 server on my home laptop.
 
 (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
 I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
 1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
 works well!!
 
 2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
 I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in
 test 1!
 
 3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1,
 but things just dont work.
 
 Any one can explain this?
 
 

Not yet. Many commercial networks operate firewalls affecting the
connections leaving the network so as yet you don't know which end of
the connection has an issue.

Divide the problem into two parts: the simplest way to check port
forwarding is to use an external website from home, that way you can
change things without travelling from your office, and you know the
other end will have no firewall problems.

A simple and slightly alarming but fairly reliable site is
http://grc.com. Click on Shields Up!!, scroll down over halfway and
click the heading Shields Up!, then Proceed, and Continue, then Common
Ports (you can enter 22 manually, but the Common Ports is a quick test
and just one click is needed).

You're looking for 22 shown as Open, and probably all others as
Stealth. Ignore all the dire warnings, this is a site for Windows users
and they need to be scared.

If 22 is not shown as Open, then you either haven't got the forwarding
right, or sshd isn't running as you expect. If the router looks right,
from your laptop try ssh IP address of laptop. This isn't the same as
ssh localhost, as the ssh server treats different interfaces separately.

If all is well at this end, but there is still a problem from your
office, then you need to ask about outgoing firewalling there.

However you resolve the initial problem, the ssh server is very heavily
targeted by the bad guys, using password checking bots. A quick and
dirty security measure is to forward a non-standard high numbered
external TCP port to laptop:22 (nearly all routers should be able to
do that) or to forward it to the same port of the laptop, and
reconfigure the ssh server to listen on that port (the Port xxx line(s)
in /etc/sshd_config). Remember to restart the ssh server if you need to
do this.

Six people will now leap in and say that's not going to improve
security, all the bad guys have to do is run a portscan to find your
server. However, scanning 65,000 ports of the same IP address across
the Internet is no small undertaking, and will certainly attract
attention, and I've never yet seen a bot attempt it. I don't get *any*
connection attempts to my ssh port, while 22 gets 10-100 a day.

The long-term solution is to disable passwords and use public-private
key pairs for authentication, which is not really difficult, but is
not for a complete beginner, and can certainly not be tried until you
have the system working reliably on passwords. A quick Google for ssh
public key tutorial turns up a vast number of sites to help with this.

If you need to work from Windows, by the way, the puTTY program is
pretty much the industry standard. There is also a Portable Apps
version of it, which does not write anything to the Windows machine.

-- 
Joe


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Brian]

On Wed 10 Oct 2012 at 08:35:13 -0700, houkensjtu wrote:

 I am a newbie both of debian and networking...  Recently I am trying
 to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my home) from office. I
 read several articles on port forwarding. And I succeeded in opening
 an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh server on my home laptop.
 
 (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
 I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
 1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
 works well!!

We assume this means you were able to log in with your password, so it
very much looks like you have set up port forwarding to the home machine
correctly. Would you please say how your office machine resolves the IP
number for DEBIAN.
 
 2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
 I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in test
 1!

What do get with

   ssh USER@my_home_external_ip ?

 3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1,
 but things just dont work.

'Connection refused' would indicate there is a route to the host but
there is no daemon running on port 22.



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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Brian]

On Wed 10 Oct 2012 at 19:44:27 +0100, Joe wrote:

[Some good advice snipped]

 However you resolve the initial problem, the ssh server is very heavily
 targeted by the bad guys, using password checking bots. A quick and
 dirty security measure is to forward a non-standard high numbered
 external TCP port to laptop:22 (nearly all routers should be able to
 do that) or to forward it to the same port of the laptop, and
 reconfigure the ssh server to listen on that port (the Port xxx line(s)
 in /etc/sshd_config). Remember to restart the ssh server if you need to
 do this.
 
 Six people will now leap in and say that's not going to improve
 security, all the bad guys have to do is run a portscan to find your
 server. However, scanning 65,000 ports of the same IP address across
 the Internet is no small undertaking, and will certainly attract
 attention, and I've never yet seen a bot attempt it. I don't get *any*
 connection attempts to my ssh port, while 22 gets 10-100 a day.

What you say about putting sshd of a port other than 22 is undoubtfully
correct. It gives peace of mind, a sense of combating the baddies, less
cruft in the logs and a reason to proselytise. What it doesn't give is a
more secure sshd. Not a single iota of security is gained with the
technique you advocate.

Five to go.
 
 The long-term solution is to disable passwords and use public-private
 key pairs for authentication, which is not really difficult, but is
 not for a complete beginner, and can certainly not be tried until you
 have the system working reliably on passwords. A quick Google for ssh
 public key tutorial turns up a vast number of sites to help with this.

If there was a security problem key-based authentification might provide
a solution. There isn't, so it doesn't.


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[houkensjtu]

Hi Joe!
Thank you for detailed reply!
Actually I found a switch which solved my problem and now all my experiments 
works perfectly. The command is:

echo 1/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

but...What is it?! Is there any other way to check and configure my laptop's 
status without writing directly to this file?
...well I know, linux is all about file...


Joe於 2012年10月11日星期四UTC+9上午3時50分02秒寫道：
 On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT)
 
 houkensjtu houkens...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
  Hi debianer!
 
  I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
 
  Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my
 
  home) from office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I
 
  succeeded in opening an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh
 
  server on my home laptop.
 
  
 
  (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
  
 
  I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
  
 
  1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
  
 
  works well!!
 
  
 
  2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 
  [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
  
 
  I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in
 
  test 1!
 
  
 
  3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 
  ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 
  This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1,
 
  but things just dont work.
 
  
 
  Any one can explain this?
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 Not yet. Many commercial networks operate firewalls affecting the
 
 connections leaving the network so as yet you don't know which end of
 
 the connection has an issue.
 
 
 
 Divide the problem into two parts: the simplest way to check port
 
 forwarding is to use an external website from home, that way you can
 
 change things without travelling from your office, and you know the
 
 other end will have no firewall problems.
 
 
 
 A simple and slightly alarming but fairly reliable site is
 
 http://grc.com. Click on Shields Up!!, scroll down over halfway and
 
 click the heading Shields Up!, then Proceed, and Continue, then Common
 
 Ports (you can enter 22 manually, but the Common Ports is a quick test
 
 and just one click is needed).
 
 
 
 You're looking for 22 shown as Open, and probably all others as
 
 Stealth. Ignore all the dire warnings, this is a site for Windows users
 
 and they need to be scared.
 
 
 
 If 22 is not shown as Open, then you either haven't got the forwarding
 
 right, or sshd isn't running as you expect. If the router looks right,
 
 from your laptop try ssh IP address of laptop. This isn't the same as
 
 ssh localhost, as the ssh server treats different interfaces separately.
 
 
 
 If all is well at this end, but there is still a problem from your
 
 office, then you need to ask about outgoing firewalling there.
 
 
 
 However you resolve the initial problem, the ssh server is very heavily
 
 targeted by the bad guys, using password checking bots. A quick and
 
 dirty security measure is to forward a non-standard high numbered
 
 external TCP port to laptop:22 (nearly all routers should be able to
 
 do that) or to forward it to the same port of the laptop, and
 
 reconfigure the ssh server to listen on that port (the Port xxx line(s)
 
 in /etc/sshd_config). Remember to restart the ssh server if you need to
 
 do this.
 
 
 
 Six people will now leap in and say that's not going to improve
 
 security, all the bad guys have to do is run a portscan to find your
 
 server. However, scanning 65,000 ports of the same IP address across
 
 the Internet is no small undertaking, and will certainly attract
 
 attention, and I've never yet seen a bot attempt it. I don't get *any*
 
 connection attempts to my ssh port, while 22 gets 10-100 a day.
 
 
 
 The long-term solution is to disable passwords and use public-private
 
 key pairs for authentication, which is not really difficult, but is
 
 not for a complete beginner, and can certainly not be tried until you
 
 have the system working reliably on passwords. A quick Google for ssh
 
 public key tutorial turns up a vast number of sites to help with this.
 
 
 
 If you need to work from Windows, by the way, the puTTY program is
 
 pretty much the industry standard. There is also a Portable Apps
 
 version of it, which does not write anything to the Windows machine.
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 
 
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Joe於 2012年10月11日星期四UTC+9上午3時50分02秒寫道：
 On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT)
 
 houkensjtu houkens...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
  Hi debianer!
 
  I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
 
  Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my
 
  home) from office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I
 
  succeeded in opening an 22 port on my router, 

Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[houkensjtu]

Brian於 2012年10月11日星期四UTC+9上午8時00分04秒寫道：
 On Wed 10 Oct 2012 at 08:35:13 -0700, houkensjtu wrote:
 
 
 
  I am a newbie both of debian and networking...  Recently I am trying
 
  to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my home) from office. I
 
  read several articles on port forwarding. And I succeeded in opening
 
  an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh server on my home laptop.
 
  
 
  (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
  
 
  I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
  
 
  1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
  
 
  works well!!
 
 
 
 We assume this means you were able to log in with your password, so it
 
 very much looks like you have set up port forwarding to the home machine
 
 correctly. Would you please say how your office machine resolves the IP
 
 number for DEBIAN.
 
  
 
  2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 
  [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
  
 
  I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in test
 
  1!
 
 
 
 What do get with
 
 
 
ssh USER@my_home_external_ip ?
 
 
 
  3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 
  ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 
  This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1,
 
  but things just dont work.
 
 
 
 'Connection refused' would indicate there is a route to the host but
 
 there is no daemon running on port 22.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Thanks for great reply!!
I have to apologize for sth... I forgot to say that all these experiments were 
done in home on my laptop...omg
So, now I solved the problem with
echo 1/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

What is this file? Is there any other way to check or configure my laptop with 
out writing directly to this file?


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[Neal Murphy]

On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 08:19:25 PM houkensjtu wrote:
 Thanks for great reply!!
 I have to apologize for sth... I forgot to say that all these experiments
 were done in home on my laptop...omg So, now I solved the problem with
 echo 1/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
 
 What is this file? Is there any other way to check or configure my laptop
 with out writing directly to this file?

That is exactly how you tell linux to forward traffic between NICs.


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Re: newbie question on port forwarding(and ssh, netcat)

[houkensjtu]

Thanks Joe, Brian, Murphy

As I post above, I forgot to say all these experiments were done in my home on 
my laptop...
Now I am in my office and re-do all this experiment.
To be short, now all experiment which is done with ip address works well, while 
if I do ssh USER@DEBIAN, it will say:

ssh: Could not resolve hostname debian: Name or service not known

I am wondering, who(or what device,server) will resolve the hostname? Is it 
possible to resolve my laptop's name from my office?? 

2012年10月11日木曜日 1時00分03秒 UTC+9 houkensjtu:
 Hi debianer!
 
 I am a newbie both of debian and networking...
 
 Recently I am trying to connect my home laptop(I have a router in my home) 
 from office. I read several articles on port forwarding. And I succeeded in 
 opening an 22 port on my router, also I started ssh server on my home laptop.
 
 
 
 (suppose my username at home is USER, and my laptop is called DEBIAN)
 
 
 
 I did several experiment and I got confusing in some of its result.
 
 
 
 1. ssh USER@DEBIAN
 
 
 
 works well!!
 
 
 
 2. nc -vz my_home_external_ip 22
 
 [my_home_external_ip] 22 (ssh) : Connection refused
 
 
 
 I cant understand why is it. Because I have actually succeeded in test 1!
 
 
 
 3. ssh -l USER my_home_external_ip
 
 ssh: connect to host my_home_external_ip port 22: Connection refused
 
 This also doesnt work! I thought it should be equivalent to test 1, but 
 things just dont work.
 
 
 
 Any one can explain this?
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: A newbie question about competing libs

[Mumia W..]

On 06/25/2008 08:38 PM, buyoppy wrote:
  When I tried to build some application which requires the
 latest version of some other lib, first I installed that
 required lib from source into /usr/local/lib and
 ldconfiged. 

That wasn't a good idea.

 Older version of that lib which was installed
 from package remains at /usr/lib. Then I tried to build
 target application, I got a lot of undefined reference
 errors.

Remove the new version of the library in /usr/local/lib.

  I don't know the usual way to solve such a problem.
 Should I uninstall older version of lib from /usr/lib?

No.

 Should I make(or change) link at /usr/lib to the latest
 one ? Or should I install the latest version into
 　usr/lib(not /usr/local/lib) in the first place? Or
 should I deal with it by configuring options appropriately
 during building process(I tried this by adding
 -L/usr/local/lib...)?
  Could you give me any suggestion?
 

What library is this?

Whatever it is, remove it from /usr/local/lib and do ldconfig again. It
might even be a good idea to reboot after this.

Rebuild the library to go into a non-standard place for libraries, e.g.
/usr/local/exotic. Do NOT do ldconfig. Normal processes need to link
with the libraries in /usr/lib, but /usr/local/lib overrides /usr/lib,
so confusion may result, and some programs (e.g. bash) may become unusable.

The application that you are trying to build can be told to look into
/usr/local/exotic for libraries. Look at the output of ./configure --help

After you've installed the application, you may or may not need to set
LD_LIBRARY_PATH to /usr/local/exotic or something similar. Good luck.


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Re: A newbie question about competing libs

[buyoppy]

 On 06/25/08 20:38, buyoppy wrote:
   When I tried to build some application which
 requires the
  latest version of some other lib, first I
 installed that
  required lib from source into /usr/local/lib and
  ldconfiged. Older version of that lib which was
 installed
  from package remains at /usr/lib. Then I tried to
 build
  target application, I got a lot of undefined
 reference
  errors.
   I don't know the usual way to solve such a
 problem.
  Should I uninstall older version of lib from
 /usr/lib?
  Should I make(or change) link at /usr/lib to the
 latest
  one ? Or should I install the latest version into
  ?usr/lib(not /usr/local/lib) in the first place?
 Or
  should I deal with it by configuring options
 appropriately
  during building process(I tried this by adding
  -L/usr/local/lib...)?
   Could you give me any suggestion?
 
 Are you running Etch?
 
 What package is it?
 
 Could you get the deb-src and build/install it on
 your machine?
 
 Yes, I'm running Etch4. I tried to install Evince-2.22.2.
I'll soon try again it, but if possible I want to know
usual policy or way of thinking about relation of
competing libs at /usr/lib and /usr/local/lib. Is such a
coexistance impermissible at all? 
 Thanks.

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Re: A newbie question about competing libs

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/26/08 21:14, buyoppy wrote:
 On 06/25/08 20:38, buyoppy wrote:
  When I tried to build some application which
 requires the
 latest version of some other lib, first I
 installed that
 required lib from source into /usr/local/lib and
 ldconfiged. Older version of that lib which was
 installed
 from package remains at /usr/lib. Then I tried to
 build
 target application, I got a lot of undefined
 reference
 errors.
  I don't know the usual way to solve such a
 problem.
 Should I uninstall older version of lib from
 /usr/lib?
 Should I make(or change) link at /usr/lib to the
 latest
 one ? Or should I install the latest version into
 ?usr/lib(not /usr/local/lib) in the first place?
 Or
 should I deal with it by configuring options
 appropriately
 during building process(I tried this by adding
 -L/usr/local/lib...)?
  Could you give me any suggestion?
 Are you running Etch?

 What package is it?

 Could you get the deb-src and build/install it on
 your machine?

  Yes, I'm running Etch4. I tried to install Evince-2.22.2.

Etch is way back at GNOME 2.16 (or 2.18?).  If you need GNOME 2.22,
then upgrade to Lenny or Sid.

 I'll soon try again it, but if possible I want to know
 usual policy or way of thinking about relation of
 competing libs at /usr/lib and /usr/local/lib. Is such a
 coexistance impermissible at all? 

GNOME is really huge, so I'd never run a mixed system system with
such widely aged libraries.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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mt0AoNQpRgOK7oW338i3eUIpWzuYpP3b
=K8Sb
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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A newbie question about competing libs

[buyoppy]

 When I tried to build some application which requires the
latest version of some other lib, first I installed that
required lib from source into /usr/local/lib and
ldconfiged. Older version of that lib which was installed
from package remains at /usr/lib. Then I tried to build
target application, I got a lot of undefined reference
errors.
 I don't know the usual way to solve such a problem.
Should I uninstall older version of lib from /usr/lib?
Should I make(or change) link at /usr/lib to the latest
one ? Or should I install the latest version into
　usr/lib(not /usr/local/lib) in the first place? Or
should I deal with it by configuring options appropriately
during building process(I tried this by adding
-L/usr/local/lib...)?
 Could you give me any suggestion?



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Re: A newbie question about competing libs

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/25/08 20:38, buyoppy wrote:
  When I tried to build some application which requires the
 latest version of some other lib, first I installed that
 required lib from source into /usr/local/lib and
 ldconfiged. Older version of that lib which was installed
 from package remains at /usr/lib. Then I tried to build
 target application, I got a lot of undefined reference
 errors.
  I don't know the usual way to solve such a problem.
 Should I uninstall older version of lib from /usr/lib?
 Should I make(or change) link at /usr/lib to the latest
 one ? Or should I install the latest version into
 ?usr/lib(not /usr/local/lib) in the first place? Or
 should I deal with it by configuring options appropriately
 during building process(I tried this by adding
 -L/usr/local/lib...)?
  Could you give me any suggestion?

Are you running Etch?

What package is it?

Could you get the deb-src and build/install it on your machine?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhi/KAACgkQS9HxQb37XmfqqgCgh6fb6WuvM3ESHjgMizhOJsdO
lVsAn1mS9KQwKDgOBzlhtcel2cb6OJJs
=E/cR
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Jimmy Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Just as an experiment, I did a sudo hibernate -v3  hibernate.out, and
  it says that it was unable to unload nvidia and aborts hibernation
  (see attached file).  So I guess pm-hibernate kind of went ahead and
  shut down without properly taking care of nvidia, so that is why I had
  an unresponsive X server on resume, right? If that's what's happening,
  is there any way to get nvidia properly unloaded?  I am running a
  stock kernel, and have nvidia installed from the Debian repositories.

  Also, there's a script in this article I found:
  http://www.linux.com/feature/114220.  I never like running scripts
  that I don't understand, and I was wondering if whatever it's doing
  with the video card solve my problem?

An update: tried the script, and no it did not solve suspend to disk issues.
After a bit of searching on Google, I am pretty much sure that it is
the nvidia driver that is causing problems (and not insufficient
swap).  None of the workarounds Google turned up seem to work for me,
though.
Anyways, I've subscribed to the linux-thinkpad mailing list and posted
my questions there.

Thanks for the responses,
-- 
Jimmy Wu
Registered Linux User #454138


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Jimmy Wu wrote:

 I always thought resizing or doing any partition editing carried some
 risk of losing data (ie no guarantees), but perhaps ext3 is different.
 

The no guarantees disclaimer goes with pretty much all of the GPL
software. The users always have to make backups. No software is 100% bug
free.

 Anyways, I think I have ruled out the low swap explanation:
 

ok.

-- 
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http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Tyler Smith wrote:

 On 2008-02-22, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you aware that you can resize your partitions non destructively using
 something like qtparted? First backup all your data before you do
 anything like this. This is what I did when I found out that my RAM size
 is larger than my swap partition.

 
 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the options for resizing
 partitions without losing data is pretty limited. I recently went
 through a round of resizing, and while I could move swap into adjacent
 unused space, I could only alter the end of a data partition. i.e., I
 could make an existing partition bigger or smaller, but I could not
 move it.
 

I do not know. It has been some time I did this. It worked at that time and
I did not bother to dig deeply into it. May be other people on the list
know it better.

 ps - your message was flagged follow-up-to gmane.linux.debian.user,
 which was rejected by slrn as an invalid newsgroup. I don't know if
 this is a problem at my end or your end...

gmane.linux.debian.user is the news group's name. I am accessing d-u via
gmane's news server. Sorry to say, but I think the problem is at your end.
But feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Sudev Barar]

On 22/02/2008, Bob Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jimmy Wu wrote:
   From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
   able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
   be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
  
   Is it possible to hibernate if my swap partition is smaller than my
   RAM?  I have 2 GB of RAM, and when I installed Debian, I figured I
   would hardly ever need that much, so I made swap 1.4 GB.

  IIRC the ram image is compressed using lzw compression.  Therefore it
  actually depends upon how well things compress.  If you have good
  compression then it would fit.  But if not then it wouldn't.  But it
  is data dependent upon what is in ram at the moment.  Using lzw is not
  really intended to reduce the amount of disk needed but is done as a
  way to speed up the hibernate process.  Writing disk is slow and if
  that can be reduced then hibernation is faster.  But it might work to
  your advantage anyway.

Is it me or you also need big enough /tmp. I installed lenny 64 with
/tmp of 512mb with ram of 2gb suspend/hibernate would not work. On a
reinstall (for some other reason)  I made /tmp 2.5gb now both work.
Puzzled...

-- 
Regards,
Sudev Barar

Read http://blog.sudev.in for topics ranging from here to there.


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Jimmy Wu wrote:

From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
 able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
 be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
 
 Is it possible to hibernate if my swap partition is smaller than my
 RAM?  I have 2 GB of RAM, and when I installed Debian, I figured I
 would hardly ever need that much, so I made swap 1.4 GB.
 

Are you aware that you can resize your partitions non destructively using
something like qtparted? First backup all your data before you do anything
like this. This is what I did when I found out that my RAM size is larger
than my swap partition.

raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Chris Riley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Is High memory support turned on in the kernel?  This could explain why
 hibernation is working whilst you have 2gig's in the system.

 Processor type and features
 - High Memory Support



I remember seeing such a menu from compiling a kernel once, but I
don't remember how I got to it.

Instead I did this:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/boot$ grep HIGH config-2.6.24-1-686
CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS=y
# CONFIG_NOHIGHMEM is not set
CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G=y
# CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G is not set
CONFIG_HIGHMEM=y
# CONFIG_HIGHPTE is not set
# CONFIG_DEBUG_HIGHMEM is not set


-- 
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Registered Linux User #454138


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jimmy Wu wrote:

  From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
   able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
   be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
  
   Is it possible to hibernate if my swap partition is smaller than my
   RAM?  I have 2 GB of RAM, and when I installed Debian, I figured I
   would hardly ever need that much, so I made swap 1.4 GB.
  

  Are you aware that you can resize your partitions non destructively using
  something like qtparted? First backup all your data before you do anything
  like this. This is what I did when I found out that my RAM size is larger
  than my swap partition.

I always thought resizing or doing any partition editing carried some
risk of losing data (ie no guarantees), but perhaps ext3 is different.

Anyways, I think I have ruled out the low swap explanation:

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Selim T. Erdogan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:11:54AM -0500, Jimmy Wu wrote:
  
   Not really what you were saying, but I suppose it might work.  But
   first I have to figure out if it really is inadequate swap that's
   giving me grief.

  I would assume that upon doing a fresh boot-up you would be using much
  less memory than your available swap partition.  (You can check and
  confirm using, say, top.)  Then if you try suspending and still have the
  same problems when resuming, I think it would be a good indicator that
  your problems lie elsewhere.

Right after boot, I logged in to tty1 and did a sudo pm-hibernate
While staring at the screen for messages, I noticed that the snapshot
image was less than 400 MB, and it correctly determined free swap as
just short of 1.4 GB - so swap is more than enough.

On resume, I got a lot of beeps, but after waiting for like 2-3
minutes or so, I was back at my console prompt.  However, when I tried
to switch over to gdm on tty7, the screen is black, system goes
unresponsive, and I can't get back to my tty1 anymore.

Just as an experiment, I did a sudo hibernate -v3  hibernate.out, and
it says that it was unable to unload nvidia and aborts hibernation
(see attached file).  So I guess pm-hibernate kind of went ahead and
shut down without properly taking care of nvidia, so that is why I had
an unresponsive X server on resume, right? If that's what's happening,
is there any way to get nvidia properly unloaded?  I am running a
stock kernel, and have nvidia installed from the Debian repositories.

Also, there's a script in this article I found:
http://www.linux.com/feature/114220.  I never like running scripts
that I don't understand, and I was wondering if whatever it's doing
with the video card solve my problem?

Thanks again for everyone's help and responses
-- 
Jimmy Wu
Registered Linux User #454138


hibernate.out
Description: Binary data

Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Tyler Smith]

On 2008-02-22, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you aware that you can resize your partitions non destructively using
 something like qtparted? First backup all your data before you do anything
 like this. This is what I did when I found out that my RAM size is larger
 than my swap partition.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the options for resizing
partitions without losing data is pretty limited. I recently went
through a round of resizing, and while I could move swap into adjacent
unused space, I could only alter the end of a data partition. i.e., I
could make an existing partition bigger or smaller, but I could not
move it.

So, unless I'm missing something, you can only make swap bigger if it
occurs after a data partition. Had I understood this all when I
installed I'd have made sure to put swap at the very end of the drive,
instead of in the middle of a virtual partition...

Cheers,

Tyler

ps - your message was flagged follow-up-to gmane.linux.debian.user,
which was rejected by slrn as an invalid newsgroup. I don't know if
this is a problem at my end or your end...


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hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?

Is it possible to hibernate if my swap partition is smaller than my
RAM?  I have 2 GB of RAM, and when I installed Debian, I figured I
would hardly ever need that much, so I made swap 1.4 GB.

Just a bit of extra information:
I tried a sudo pm-hibernate today, and it ran fine.  I saw s2disk
running, and then the computer powered off without any errors.  I
pressed the power button to turn it back on, and the computer got past
grub, saw the saved file, and began resuming from it.  After that
though, all I got was a black screen and a bunch of beeps.  I ended up
having to force a reboot with Alt+SysRq.

I am trying to figure out if my swap partition size has anything to do
with it.  I tend to think no, because if it was too small, it
shouldn't have been able to hibernate.  And the more stuff I read
online about swsusp, uswsusp, suspend 2 etc, the more confused I get

I am running Debian Sid on a Thinkpad T61, in case that matters.
Also, I am running Xfce4 so i do not have the gnome-power-manager.

Thanks in advance!

Jimmy
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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Rich Healey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
  Jimmy Wu wrote:
  From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
   able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
   be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
[...]
  Yes, you'll need to have the same sized swap as RAM, although from
  memory there is a way to force it to do it with less...

All right, I'll look into that.  What I can't figure out is why the
actual hibernate part (setting restore point) seems to have worked.

  Actually this is a useless post, sorry

well, I wouldn't say that.  All responses are appreciated.

Thanks again,
-- 
Jimmy
Registered Linux User #454138


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Jimmy Wu]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Jimmy Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Rich Healey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [...]

   Jimmy Wu wrote:
From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
 able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
 be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
  [...]

   Yes, you'll need to have the same sized swap as RAM, although from
memory there is a way to force it to do it with less...

  All right, I'll look into that.  What I can't figure out is why the
  actual hibernate part (setting restore point) seems to have worked.

Just found this article about using swap files instead of swap partitions
http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/550

Not really what you were saying, but I suppose it might work.  But
first I have to figure out if it really is inadequate swap that's
giving me grief.

-- 
Jimmy Wu
Registered Linux User #454138


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Chris Riley]

Is High memory support turned on in the kernel?  This could explain why
hibernation is working whilst you have 2gig's in the system.

Processor type and features
- High Memory Support




On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Jimmy Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Jimmy Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Rich Healey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
   [...]
 
Jimmy Wu wrote:
 From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order
 to be
  able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has
 to
  be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?
   [...]
 
Yes, you'll need to have the same sized swap as RAM, although from
 memory there is a way to force it to do it with less...
 
   All right, I'll look into that.  What I can't figure out is why the
   actual hibernate part (setting restore point) seems to have worked.

 Just found this article about using swap files instead of swap partitions
 http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/550

 Not really what you were saying, but I suppose it might work.  But
 first I have to figure out if it really is inadequate swap that's
 giving me grief.

 --
 Jimmy Wu
 Registered Linux User #454138


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Re: hibernate and swap partition size (newbie question)

[Bob Proulx]

Jimmy Wu wrote:
 From what I've read online, I get the general idea that in order to be
 able to hibernate/suspend to disk properly, the swap partition has to
 be big enough to hold all of the RAM inside it, right?

 Is it possible to hibernate if my swap partition is smaller than my
 RAM?  I have 2 GB of RAM, and when I installed Debian, I figured I
 would hardly ever need that much, so I made swap 1.4 GB.

IIRC the ram image is compressed using lzw compression.  Therefore it
actually depends upon how well things compress.  If you have good
compression then it would fit.  But if not then it wouldn't.  But it
is data dependent upon what is in ram at the moment.  Using lzw is not
really intended to reduce the amount of disk needed but is done as a
way to speed up the hibernate process.  Writing disk is slow and if
that can be reduced then hibernation is faster.  But it might work to
your advantage anyway.

With the big disks available these days it is actually a good idea to
have enough swap to avoid the out of memory killer.  Search for oom
and you will find a number of problems with it.  Having enough virtual
memory to avoid triggering it is a good thing.

Bob


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Sunday 08 April 2007 03:06, Michael M. wrote:
 On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 16:47 -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
  Thanks for taking to time to post all that information. I have installed
  Gnome, just haven't figured out how to get it going yet! After reading
  your post one of the things that I think I need to do first is read some
  good articles/overviews of the WMs that are out there and how they work.
  I have a backlog of reading to do but will do some googling to read up on
  this.

 As your Google search will probably indicate, [1] Matt Chapman's site is
 one of the most popular overviews of desktop environments and window
 managers around.  It's a good place to start.  Be warned that a lot of
 the links are outdated. 

Thanks so much Michael for the good information. You are perfectly correct 
about the outdated information. This has big one of my biggest huddles as a 
newbie to try to find information that is current. When I first started 
reading I didn't know the difference between Potato, Woody, Sarge or Etch. 
There's a lot of information still out there written for pre-Sarge Debian. I 
read the complete Debian Tutorial before I found out that it was obsoleted. 
Wasn't a total loss because much of it still applied but I would have rather 
spend that time reading something more recent. I read most of the information 
at the Chapman site you listed and the section on KDE seems to be out of date 
as well because my system isn't setup the way he describe it. Most of my 
reading now only centers on http://www.debian.org/doc/.

I am impressed with the debian-user list almost as much as I am with Debian 
Linux. This list has been and is an invaluable resource. My hat is off to all 
the people here that probably could do something a lot more profitable with 
their time but choose to spend some of it here helping others.

Thanks,
Randy


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael M.]

On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 16:47 -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:

 Thanks for taking to time to post all that information. I have installed 
 Gnome, just haven't figured out how to get it going yet! After reading your 
 post one of the things that I think I need to do first is read some good 
 articles/overviews of the WMs that are out there and how they work. I have a 
 backlog of reading to do but will do some googling to read up on this.


As your Google search will probably indicate, [1] Matt Chapman's site is
one of the most popular overviews of desktop environments and window
managers around.  It's a good place to start.  Be warned that a lot of
the links are outdated.  In some cases, it's because the project is
defunct; in others, it's just because the link hasn't been updated.  You
can search or browse Debian's repository to see how many WMs are
available through apt.

As far as WMs go, you'll find that many are variations on a theme and
fit into broad categories.

1)  The *boxes:  These include Blackbox, Fluxbox, and Openbox.  They all
share a similar design philosophy.  Blackbox, I believe, was the first.
Fluxbox is the most popular.  Openbox is my favorite, not least because
of its pipe menus.  You'll have to read up on that feature as I can't
really explain it properly.

2) Tiling WMs:  These include ion3, PekWM, PWM and others.  They
especially excel at managing terminals and can be really cool to use if
you find yourself doing lots of work in the shell.  That's not to say
they can't run graphical apps too, though.  I would recommend checking
out at least one of these, just for the experience of seeing how they
work.  They are very different from anything I ever encountered in MS
Windows.

3)  Minimalist:  Even more barebones than the tiling WMs, these include
Ratpoison and EvilWM.  They are for people who *really* don't like
reaching for the mouse!

4)  Maximalist/traditional:  WMs that provide some familiarity to anyone
who's been using computers for a while.  They often seem like DEs, but
they aren't.  They vary pretty widely in their design, so there's a lot
to look at.  Among the most popular or useful are WindowMaker, IceWM,
Enlightenment, AfterStep, and FVWM (which has been discussed quite a bit
on this list recently).

One thing you might want to keep in mind is standards compliance.
Another reason Openbox is my favorite of all the stand-alone WMs is that
it aims for (and achieves) 100% [2] ICCCM compliance.  WM developers
vary in their adherence to [3] xdg specs; some are downright
contemptuous of them and they have their reasons for that attitude.
Using a WM that is good on standards compliance means you'll be able to
use a wide range of apps and tools out there that are designed to work
with any standards-compliant DE or WM.  See, for example, [4] Devil's
Pie.  Using a WM that isn't standards-compliant means that many of these
types of apps won't work well (or at all) in that environment.  Just
something else to consider.


[1] http://xwinman.org/
[2] http://tronche.com/gui/x/icccm/
[3] http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications
[4] http://burtonini.com/blog/computers/devilspie


-- 
Michael M. ++ Portland, OR ++ USA
No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions
of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to
dream. --S. Jackson


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Andrei Popescu]

Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just because distributions default to something doesn't mean that
 other things don't work on them.  The beauty of Debian is that almost
 everything is available in the repositories.  You can use whatever you
 feel most comfortable with.  The only way you will know what fits you
 best is to try them.  Don't take anyone else's word, including mine.

Especially in Debian's case, a default doesn't mean much. And for Etch
there are alternative CD1s with KDE and Xfce.

BTW, AFAIK GNOME is (kinda) default because of historical reasons.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Andrei Popescu]

Randy Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  You're better off just installing all three and test them out.  I
  think they are pretty feature-equivalent these days.
 
 As I had stated previously I installed from the 
 debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion,
 which sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice of
 which system to start or will I have to manually close KDE and start
 one of the others? Although compared to Windoze XP I am thrilled with
 KDE I do think I would like to take a look at the others ones.

AFAIR kdm can choose which DE/WM to run.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 12:26:53PM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 10:46, John L Fjellstad wrote:
  Randy Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   I have only had Debian up and going for about two weeks. Had
   Sarge installed but had problems with my USB hardware so just
   did a clean install of Etch.  Works great!! Since I am a new
   user I don't have a favorite windowing system that I prefer and
   was wondering if someone to point me to a good link that would
   describe the strengths and weaknesses or pros and cons of each
   system.  KDE installed as default with Sarge and Etch so I
   assume they chose that for a reason and it is the only one I
   have used. I have looked but haven't been able to find a good
   comparison them.
 
  You're better off just installing all three and test them out.  I
  think they are pretty feature-equivalent these days.
 
 As I had stated previously I installed from the
 debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion,
 which sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice
 of which system to start or will I have to manually close KDE and
 start one of the others?  Although compared to Windoze XP I am
 thrilled with KDE I do think I would like to take a look at the
 others ones.
 
 Thanks, Randy

There should be a click-able button called Sessions. If you click it
KDM will present you with a group of sessions to start (KDE,
Failsafe*, Terminal), just pick the one you want. KDM is a smart
display manager so it's able to automatically pick up when you
install/uninstall window managers from your computer.
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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:19 -0400, Michael Pobega wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 09:40:57AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
  Yes, I did find that and used it now. But, I did an install of the Gnome 
  core;
  
  aptitude install gnome-core
  
  The Gnome option doesn't appear under the Session Type option. I assume 
  that 
  I haven't installed all the packages needed for Gnome. What additional 
  packages do I need?
  
 Maybe the gnome-session package? Try that one it, I think it's the
 right package.

gnome-core depends on gnome-session, so it should be installed. It is
the right package as it provides /usr/share/xsessions/gnome.desktop .
I'm not sure how kdm detects that file, it might need a restart or
reload first.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 05:33:09PM +0200, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
 On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:19 -0400, Michael Pobega wrote:
  On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 09:40:57AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
   Yes, I did find that and used it now. But, I did an install of the Gnome 
   core;
   
   aptitude install gnome-core
   
   The Gnome option doesn't appear under the Session Type option. I assume 
   that 
   I haven't installed all the packages needed for Gnome. What additional 
   packages do I need?
   
  Maybe the gnome-session package? Try that one it, I think it's the
  right package.
 
 gnome-core depends on gnome-session, so it should be installed. It is
 the right package as it provides /usr/share/xsessions/gnome.desktop .
 I'm not sure how kdm detects that file, it might need a restart or
 reload first.

I figured that, but you never know; Better off double checking the
package before assuming it's installed. Being safe is better than
being sorry!
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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 09:40:57AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Saturday 07 April 2007 09:11, Michael Pobega wrote:
   As I had stated previously I installed from the
   debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion,
   which sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice
   of which system to start or will I have to manually close KDE and
   start one of the others?  Although compared to Windoze XP I am
   thrilled with KDE I do think I would like to take a look at the
   others ones.
  
   Thanks, Randy
 
  There should be a click-able button called Sessions. If you click it
  KDM will present you with a group of sessions to start (KDE,
  Failsafe*, Terminal), just pick the one you want. KDM is a smart
  display manager so it's able to automatically pick up when you
  install/uninstall window managers from your computer.
 
 Yes, I did find that and used it now. But, I did an install of the Gnome core;
 
 aptitude install gnome-core
 
 The Gnome option doesn't appear under the Session Type option. I assume 
 that 
 I haven't installed all the packages needed for Gnome. What additional 
 packages do I need?
 
 Thanks
 Randy

Maybe the gnome-session package? Try that one it, I think it's the
right package.
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=D1dn
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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Saturday 07 April 2007 09:11, Michael Pobega wrote:
  As I had stated previously I installed from the
  debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion,
  which sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice
  of which system to start or will I have to manually close KDE and
  start one of the others?  Although compared to Windoze XP I am
  thrilled with KDE I do think I would like to take a look at the
  others ones.
 
  Thanks, Randy

 There should be a click-able button called Sessions. If you click it
 KDM will present you with a group of sessions to start (KDE,
 Failsafe*, Terminal), just pick the one you want. KDM is a smart
 display manager so it's able to automatically pick up when you
 install/uninstall window managers from your computer.

Yes, I did find that and used it now. But, I did an install of the Gnome core;

aptitude install gnome-core

The Gnome option doesn't appear under the Session Type option. I assume that 
I haven't installed all the packages needed for Gnome. What additional 
packages do I need?

Thanks
Randy


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael M.]

On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 07:29 -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
  On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
   Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
   RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
 
  Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
 
 As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
 enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
 have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
 interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
 superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
 functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
 Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 


Well I was joking of course, as the smiley was supposed to indicate.
It's more accurate to say I prefer Gnome, but I don't believe there's
any objective criteria by which one can say definitively that Gnome or
KDE is any better than the other or that either one is better than XFCE.

I settled on Gnome after lots of trials with other DEs and WMs.  For a
while I avoided DEs altogether and just used various WMs, which IMO is a
good way to learn about some of the under-the-hood functionality of
Linux OSes.  WMs tend not to do many things for you except manage your
windows, so using one forces you to learn about doing things manually
(things like mounting filesystems, for example, or starting various
processes at boot or later).  It can be really useful to know *why*
things happen the way they do, so you know where to look when something
you expect will happen doesn't.  DEs add a layer of complexity by
automating a lot of tasks and giving you DE-specific tools to automate
even more.  That can be a real timesaver, but if you don't understand
what they are doing it will leave you helpless when something breaks.
Especially if you're coming from Windows or OS X, where everything is of
a piece, sticking to just a WM for a while helps you grok the separation
of functionality that's inherent in Linux OSes.

The other thing that's useful about trying various WMs is that it can
give you ideas about how you'd like things set up on your system, ideas
that you might never have been exposed to otherwise.  Just go visit
various screenshot galleries and you'll see how very different from each
other Linux desktops can look, and you'll start to get an idea of how
differently they can function too.

As for Gnome vs KDE, my preference for Gnome basically comes down to two
factors.  The first is that, after trying out lots of different apps, I
found that I tended to like apps using the GTK+ toolkit better than apps
using QT.  It is certainly possible to use GTK+ apps under KDE and QT
apps under Gnome -- many people do all the time -- but generally
speaking (and I do mean *very* generally!) GTK+ apps are more suited to
Gnome or XFCE and QT apps are more suited to KDE.  Since I found very
few QT apps essential (in fact, I don't have any QT apps installed
anymore),  it didn't seem to make much sense to me to use a DE that was
designed using QT.  To put it simply, it's the apps, stupid.  :-)

The second factor is that I like the way Gnome is laid out by default.
I like the thin panels at the top and bottom (you can run Gnome with
only one panel if you prefer, but I like having two).  I like the themes
available and don't feel the need to tweak them much.  In fact I'm happy
with most Gnome's defaults and haven't felt the need to change much.
Once in a while I'll go into gconf to tweak something or other, but
mostly it just suits me.  I didn't feel the same about KDE.  KDE has an
enormous number of preference options and can be customized out the
wazoo, which is one thing many people like about it and some others
criticize it for, so you can probably bend and twist KDE into just about
anything you prefer.  But that's a lot of work and I got tired of it,
especially given that after all was said and done, I was still using
more GTK+ than QT apps.  (It probably didn't help that the very first
Linux distro I tried defaulted to what I thought was a particulary ugly
KDE environment; it was a while before I figured out that KDE can look
quite beautiful if you put the time and effort into it.)  Gnome can be
customized pretty extensively too, but heavy customization isn't exactly
the design philosophy behind Gnome.  Personally, I felt like I was
constantly fighting with KDE, trying to change all the things I didn't
care for, whereas with Gnome I didn't need to.  To put it simply, it's
the defaults, stupid.  :-)


 One example of what I mean. One of my part time jobs is hosting and setting 
 up 
 websites and web apps (ASP/PHP). I cannot work without a password vault of 
 some kind because I have way more login information than I could ever 
 remember. While setting up a Kmail account I was blown away when it ask me if 
 I 

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Saturday 07 April 2007 14:41, Michael M. wrote:

snipped Michael's long and very helpful post!

 --
 Michael M. ++ Portland, OR ++ USA
 No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions
 of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to
 dream. --S. Jackson

Thanks for taking to time to post all that information. I have installed 
Gnome, just haven't figured out how to get it going yet! After reading your 
post one of the things that I think I need to do first is read some good 
articles/overviews of the WMs that are out there and how they work. I have a 
backlog of reading to do but will do some googling to read up on this.

Thanks,
Randy


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Saturday 07 April 2007 10:49, Michael Pobega wrote:
The Gnome option doesn't appear under the Session Type option. I
assume that I haven't installed all the packages needed for Gnome.
What additional packages do I need?
  
   Maybe the gnome-session package? Try that one it, I think it's the
   right package.
 
  gnome-core depends on gnome-session, so it should be installed. It is
  the right package as it provides /usr/share/xsessions/gnome.desktop .
  I'm not sure how kdm detects that file, it might need a restart or
  reload first.

 I figured that, but you never know; Better off double checking the
 package before assuming it's installed. Being safe is better than
 being sorry!

And you would be exactly right in doing so! That was my problem. As stated 
previously I had used aptitude to install the gnome-core but there was still 
no Gnome option. I just installed gnome-session using aptitude and now all is 
will. In fact I am using Gnome as I send this message. 

Thanks again,
Randy


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 08:14, Michael Pobega wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 07:33:28AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
  On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
   On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like
Ubuntu/Debian, RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
  
   Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
 
  As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen
  enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't
  really have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would
  be interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is
  superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the
  functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze
  to Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless!

 It really depends on what you want. KDE is better if you want to fine
 tune how your system runs (But KDE is sluggish in my opinion), GNOME
 is a /bit/ lighter without much customization involved. Xfce is the
 best of the three in my experience, giving the user both control and
 speed.

 Or, if you want to really save your CPU cycles, try a window manager.
 Fluxbox/FVWM/WindowMaker are the best in my opinion, I personally use
 Window Maker (As I've stated dozens of times on these mailing lists).

 You really don't have to worry about desktop integration, because if
 you love Kmail and Kwallet then you could run the Kwallet daemon when
 you log in and have all of the functionality of Kwallet in say,
 GNOME/Fluxbox.

 # aptitude install fluxbox wmaker icewm gnome-core kde-core xfce4 xfwm4

 And give them all a shot :)

I ran the above aptitude command line and here is last section copied from the 
terminal window;

begin

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  libfam0
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libnspr4-0d libnss3-0d
2 packages upgraded, 203 newly installed, 1 to remove and 52 not upgraded.
Need to get 113MB of archives. After unpacking 428MB will be used.
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
  gamin: Conflicts: fam but 2.7.0-12 is to be installed.
Resolving dependencies...
The following actions will resolve these dependencies:

Keep the following packages at their current version:
fam [Not Installed]

Leave the following dependencies unresolved:
libgnomevfs2-0 recommends fam
nautilus recommends fam
Score is -341

Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?]

end

I chose not to accept this right now. Do I need to add these two packages to 
the above command line so that they will be resolved or does it even matter?

Thanks,
Randy

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 07:53:01AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 08:14, Michael Pobega wrote:
  On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 07:33:28AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
   On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
 Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like
 Ubuntu/Debian, RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
   
Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
  
   As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen
   enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't
   really have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would
   be interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is
   superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the
   functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze
   to Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless!
 
  It really depends on what you want. KDE is better if you want to fine
  tune how your system runs (But KDE is sluggish in my opinion), GNOME
  is a /bit/ lighter without much customization involved. Xfce is the
  best of the three in my experience, giving the user both control and
  speed.
 
  Or, if you want to really save your CPU cycles, try a window manager.
  Fluxbox/FVWM/WindowMaker are the best in my opinion, I personally use
  Window Maker (As I've stated dozens of times on these mailing lists).
 
  You really don't have to worry about desktop integration, because if
  you love Kmail and Kwallet then you could run the Kwallet daemon when
  you log in and have all of the functionality of Kwallet in say,
  GNOME/Fluxbox.
 
  # aptitude install fluxbox wmaker icewm gnome-core kde-core xfce4 xfwm4
 
  And give them all a shot :)
 
 I ran the above aptitude command line and here is last section copied from 
 the 
 terminal window;
 
 begin
 
 The following packages will be REMOVED:
   libfam0
 The following packages will be upgraded:
   libnspr4-0d libnss3-0d
 2 packages upgraded, 203 newly installed, 1 to remove and 52 not upgraded.
 Need to get 113MB of archives. After unpacking 428MB will be used.
 The following packages have unmet dependencies:
   gamin: Conflicts: fam but 2.7.0-12 is to be installed.
 Resolving dependencies...
 The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
 
 Keep the following packages at their current version:
 fam [Not Installed]
 
 Leave the following dependencies unresolved:
 libgnomevfs2-0 recommends fam
 nautilus recommends fam
 Score is -341
 
 Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?]
 
 end
 
 I chose not to accept this right now. Do I need to add these two packages to 
 the above command line so that they will be resolved or does it even matter?
 
 Thanks,
 Randy
 

As long as you have Gamin installed it should be fine. I have Gamin
and not Fam and my system hasn't exploded yet :D
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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Celejar]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:05:52 -0400
Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 07:53:01AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
  On Thursday 05 April 2007 08:14, Michael Pobega wrote:
   On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 07:33:28AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
 On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
  Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like
  Ubuntu/Debian, RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?

 Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
   
As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen
enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't
really have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would
be interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is
superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the
functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from 
Windoze
to Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless!
  
   It really depends on what you want. KDE is better if you want to fine
   tune how your system runs (But KDE is sluggish in my opinion), GNOME
   is a /bit/ lighter without much customization involved. Xfce is the
   best of the three in my experience, giving the user both control and
   speed.
  
   Or, if you want to really save your CPU cycles, try a window manager.
   Fluxbox/FVWM/WindowMaker are the best in my opinion, I personally use
   Window Maker (As I've stated dozens of times on these mailing lists).
  
   You really don't have to worry about desktop integration, because if
   you love Kmail and Kwallet then you could run the Kwallet daemon when
   you log in and have all of the functionality of Kwallet in say,
   GNOME/Fluxbox.
  
   # aptitude install fluxbox wmaker icewm gnome-core kde-core xfce4 xfwm4
  
   And give them all a shot :)
  
  I ran the above aptitude command line and here is last section copied from 
  the 
  terminal window;
  
  begin
  
  The following packages will be REMOVED:
libfam0
  The following packages will be upgraded:
libnspr4-0d libnss3-0d
  2 packages upgraded, 203 newly installed, 1 to remove and 52 not upgraded.
  Need to get 113MB of archives. After unpacking 428MB will be used.
  The following packages have unmet dependencies:
gamin: Conflicts: fam but 2.7.0-12 is to be installed.
  Resolving dependencies...
  The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
  
  Keep the following packages at their current version:
  fam [Not Installed]
  
  Leave the following dependencies unresolved:
  libgnomevfs2-0 recommends fam
  nautilus recommends fam
  Score is -341
  
  Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?]
  
  end
  
  I chose not to accept this right now. Do I need to add these two packages 
  to 
  the above command line so that they will be resolved or does it even matter?
  
  Thanks,
  Randy
  
 
 As long as you have Gamin installed it should be fine. I have Gamin
 and not Fam and my system hasn't exploded yet :D

Same here. I ran into this problem when I installed bluefish, which
pulled in some GNOME stuff which conflicted with fam. OTOH, I use Xfce,
and something there wanted ('suggested') fam (I don't recall exactly
what, but I think it had to do with Thunar, and I don't know if that
dependency is still there), which upset aptitude. I chose to take gamin
since bluefish 'required' (indirectly) it, and not fam, since it
was only 'suggested'. I don't think I've experienced any problems.

Celejar

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Mark Grieveson]

 Keep the following packages at their current version:
 fam [Not Installed]

 Leave the following dependencies unresolved:
 libgnomevfs2-0 recommends fam
 nautilus recommends fam
 Score is -341

 Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?]

 end

 I chose not to accept this right now. Do I need to add these two
 packages to the above command line so that they will be resolved or
 does it even matter?

 Thanks,
 Randy

I would accept the solution.  You'll need nautilus for gnome to run
correctly.  If you have gamin, you'll not need fam.  So, keeping gamin,
not installing fam, and installing nautilus and libgnomevfs2-0 (despite
them desiring fam) should work (it works on my computer).  

I would also update, and upgrade your entire system (ie, aptitude
update, followed by aptitude dist-upgrade) first, given that it
reported 52 not upgraded when you were installing.

Personally, though, if your computer is fast enough, I would not bother
with anything other than kde or gnome.

Mark


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michael M. wrote:
 On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
 
 Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian, 
 RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
 
 
 Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
 
 
Flamebait!  Oh now, now we're going to get a flamewar over which DE is
best.  Just what we need.

Joe

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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael M.]

On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:

 Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian, 
 RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?


Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)


-- 
Michael M. ++ Portland, OR ++ USA
No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions
of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to
dream. --S. Jackson


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
 On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
  Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
  RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?

 Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)

As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 

One example of what I mean. One of my part time jobs is hosting and setting up 
websites and web apps (ASP/PHP). I cannot work without a password vault of 
some kind because I have way more login information than I could ever 
remember. While setting up a Kmail account I was blown away when it ask me if 
I wanted to store the password in Kwalet! I think in the back of my mind I 
thought I was going to have to give up some functionality for free software 
in moving to Linux. Was I ever so wrong! 

From my point of view the real speed of an OS/Windowing system is not just in 
how fast it will pop a window on the screen, although important, but also in 
how does it, with the functionality it contains, speed you along with the 
work that you have to do? So, do you think Gnome is functionally better and 
KDE and why?

Thanks,
Randy

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
 On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
  Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
  RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?

 Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)

As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 

One example of what I mean. One of my part time jobs is hosting and setting up 
websites and web apps (ASP/PHP). I cannot work without a password vault of 
some kind because I have way more login information than I could ever 
remember. While setting up a Kmail account I was blown away when it ask me if 
I wanted to store the password in Kwalet! I think in the back of my mind I 
thought I was going to have to give up some functionality for free software 
in moving to Linux. Was I ever so wrong! 

From my point of view the real speed of an OS/Windowing system is not just in 
how fast it will pop a window on the screen, although important, but also in 
how does it, with the functionality it contains, speed you along with the 
work that you have to do? So, do you think Gnome is functionally better and 
KDE and why?

Thanks,
Randy

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

Oops! Sorry about that! Kmail gave me an error on the first send so I didn't 
think it was sent out.

On Thursday 05 April 2007 07:33, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
  On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
   Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
   RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
 
  Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)

 As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen
 enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really
 have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be
 interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is
 superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the
 functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze
 to Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless!

 One example of what I mean. One of my part time jobs is hosting and setting
 up websites and web apps (ASP/PHP). I cannot work without a password vault
 of some kind because I have way more login information than I could ever
 remember. While setting up a Kmail account I was blown away when it ask me
 if I wanted to store the password in Kwalet! I think in the back of my mind
 I thought I was going to have to give up some functionality for free
 software in moving to Linux. Was I ever so wrong!

 From my point of view the real speed of an OS/Windowing system is not just
 in how fast it will pop a window on the screen, although important, but
 also in how does it, with the functionality it contains, speed you along
 with the work that you have to do? So, do you think Gnome is functionally
 better and KDE and why?

 Thanks,
 Randy

Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Kevin Mark]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 07:33:28AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
  On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
   Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
   RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
 
  Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
 
 As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
 enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
 have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
 interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
 superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
 functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
 Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 
One of the things about the free software world is that you dont have
the artifical issues about cost to consider. Most newbies try a few
distros, try a few windowmanager, a few text editors, etc. With the
issue of cost out of the way, it all about find out what works for you
and even pitching in to make something even better by making a tweak for
your own needs and sometimes giving that back for others to enjoy. 
I'm currently using xfce4 as my system has 256mb and xfce is gaining
some nice integration. Free software extends your investment in hardware
by maybe double.
- -- 
|  .''`.  == Debian GNU/Linux == |   my web site:   |
| : :' :  The  Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/|
| `. `'  Operating System| go to counter.li.org and |
|   `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656   |
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|join the new debian-community.org to help Debian!  |
|___  Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___|
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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 07:33:28AM -0500, Randy Patterson wrote:
 On Thursday 05 April 2007 06:22, Michael M. wrote:
  On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 20:19 -0400, Javier Enrique Tiá Marín wrote:
   Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian,
   RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
 
  Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
 
 As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
 enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
 have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
 interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
 superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
 functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
 Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 
 

It really depends on what you want. KDE is better if you want to fine
tune how your system runs (But KDE is sluggish in my opinion), GNOME
is a /bit/ lighter without much customization involved. Xfce is the
best of the three in my experience, giving the user both control and
speed.

Or, if you want to really save your CPU cycles, try a window manager.
Fluxbox/FVWM/WindowMaker are the best in my opinion, I personally use
Window Maker (As I've stated dozens of times on these mailing lists).

You really don't have to worry about desktop integration, because if
you love Kmail and Kwallet then you could run the Kwallet daemon when
you log in and have all of the functionality of Kwallet in say,
GNOME/Fluxbox.

# aptitude install fluxbox wmaker icewm gnome-core kde-core xfce4 xfwm4

And give them all a shot :)
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

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=i40+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Kevin Mark wrote:
[snip]
 As stated previously I am a newbie in the Linux world, but one that seen 
 enough to know that there is no going back now! So currently I don't really 
 have a loyalty to any of the higher level window systems. I would be 
 interested in knowing from your experience why you feel that Gnome is 
 superior to KDE. I guess what I am looking for deals more with the 
 functionality than anything else and not speed. So far going from Windoze to 
 Linux/KDE is like going from dialup to wireless! 

 One of the things about the free software world is that you dont have
 the artifical issues about cost to consider. Most newbies try a few
 distros, try a few windowmanager, a few text editors, etc. With the
 issue of cost out of the way, it all about find out what works for you
 and even pitching in to make something even better by making a tweak for
 your own needs and sometimes giving that back for others to enjoy. 
 I'm currently using xfce4 as my system has 256mb and xfce is gaining
 some nice integration. Free software extends your investment in hardware
 by maybe double.

Well said Kevin.  Personally, I started out with Gnome but switched to
KDE because it has more options to configure it the way I like it.
Interoperability between the different KDE programs is very good, and it
has a consistant interface.  Gnome has the consistant interface, but
lacks some of the configurability of KDE and also has IMO, one of the
worst file managers produced.

It has been said that KDE also more resembles Windows, so you can get
used to using it much quicker.  I don't really agree with that because
KDE has a lot more functionality than Windows does.  If your machine is
older, and you don't have a lot of memory, then I would suggest you try
xfce.  Kevin uses it, and one of my old computers uses it.

Just because distributions default to something doesn't mean that other
things don't work on them.  The beauty of Debian is that almost
everything is available in the repositories.  You can use whatever you
feel most comfortable with.  The only way you will know what fits you
best is to try them.  Don't take anyone else's word, including mine.

Joe

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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Douglas Allan Tutty]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 01:38:13PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
  Why Gnome is the Default Desktop for Distributions like Ubuntu/Debian, 
  RedHat/CentOS/Fedora and OpenSuse?
  
  Because Gnome is superior, of course.  :-)
  
 Flamebait!  Oh now, now we're going to get a flamewar over which DE is
 best.  Just what we need.

Desktop environment:  
A constant 22 C while I type at the command line.

Eye Candy: 
Typing on the command line:
setterm -background green -foreground red -store

Mouse:
Device whose job it is to pull your hand from the home keys.

Minimal command line interface:
no monitor, no graphics card, no terminal, just a 
dot matrix printer and a keyboard.
Yup, did that once when I _really_ needed to fix
something.  Yae Ed!

:)

Doug.


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 19:09 -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
 . gconf spews all sorts of errors into log files.

Not true as of 2.18.0.1-2.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Sven Arvidsson wrote:

 On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 19:09 -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
 . gconf spews all sorts of errors into log files.
 
 Not true as of 2.18.0.1-2.
 

Too bad that this is not in Etch. But good to know.

thanks
raju

-- 
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http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[John Hasler]

Doug writes:
 Minimal command line interface:
   no monitor, no graphics card, no terminal, just a 
   dot matrix printer and a keyboard.
   Yup, did that once when I _really_ needed to fix
   something.

You really don't want to get into that competition here.
-- 
John Hasler
Plugboards, toggle switches...


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[John L Fjellstad]

Randy Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I have only had Debian up and going for about two weeks. Had Sarge
 installed but had problems with my USB hardware so just did a clean
 install of Etch.  Works great!! Since I am a new user I don't have a
 favorite windowing system that I prefer and was wondering if someone
 to point me to a good link that would describe the strengths and
 weaknesses or pros and cons of each system.  KDE installed as default
 with Sarge and Etch so I assume they chose that for a reason and it is
 the only one I have used. I have looked but haven't been able to find
 a good comparison them.

You're better off just installing all three and test them out.  I think
they are pretty feature-equivalent these days.

-- 
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[Randy Patterson]

On Thursday 05 April 2007 10:46, John L Fjellstad wrote:
 Randy Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I have only had Debian up and going for about two weeks. Had Sarge
  installed but had problems with my USB hardware so just did a clean
  install of Etch.  Works great!! Since I am a new user I don't have a
  favorite windowing system that I prefer and was wondering if someone
  to point me to a good link that would describe the strengths and
  weaknesses or pros and cons of each system.  KDE installed as default
  with Sarge and Etch so I assume they chose that for a reason and it is
  the only one I have used. I have looked but haven't been able to find
  a good comparison them.

 You're better off just installing all three and test them out.  I think
 they are pretty feature-equivalent these days.

As I had stated previously I installed from the 
debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion, which 
sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice of which system 
to start or will I have to manually close KDE and start one of the others? 
Although compared to Windoze XP I am thrilled with KDE I do think I would 
like to take a look at the others ones.

Thanks,
Randy


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Re: Newbie Question - KDE-Gnome-xfce

[John L Fjellstad]

Randy Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 As I had stated previously I installed from the
 debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso image. If I take your suggestion,
 which sounds like a good one, when I boot will I be given a choice of
 which system to start or will I have to manually close KDE and start
 one of the others?  Although compared to Windoze XP I am thrilled with
 KDE I do think I would like to take a look at the others ones.

Well, I'm not sure what kind of environment the kde testing cd will
install these days, but I presume you do have a GUI login environment
(using KDM).  There is an option in KDM that let you choose which
environment you want to use (it's called sessions, I think).

So, basically, you install all three environments.  *After* you boot-up,
you will get the familiar login screen.  Type in your name and then
choose the environment.  The system will remember what you chose last.
To change environment, just logout of your current session, and log back
in with the new environment.

-- 
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes


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