Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 03:27:01PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Pigeon wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:52:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. Yeah, but what are the choices? Run tasksel (y/n)? (frequently too coarse) Run dselect (y/n)? (we all know about this one :-) ) Do it by hand afterwards - somewhat inconvenient and daunting for a new user ...and as cr says, the risk of premature termination and the lack of a 'back' option are big minuses. Though I hate to say it, the lack of 'back' options to correct a damnwrongbutton is one area where Debian tends to lose to M$. We all kit the wrong key sometimes. It makes very little sense to crituque the old installer at this point. Sorry, it wasn't really intended that way. The first part was a disagreement with the value of avoiding running dselect - a point related to methods of using the current installer, rather than the installer itself. I admit that could have been clearer. The bit about 'back' options was aimed at a wider target than just the installer - xf86config is an example that comes to mind: enter wrong option by mistake, say bad word, hit ctrl-c, start all over again. if you had send me this critisizm five, or even three years ago, I would have fixed it then. As it is, I fixed it this year. Nice one. There's still a chance to crituque the new one of course. See the docuemntation for the debian-installer project and do a test install. (looks at pile of partial computers) That sounds like an interesting idea. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: dselect, was Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Saturday 27 September 2003 2:18 am, Terry Hancock wrote: On Friday 26 September 2003 10:29 am, Pigeon wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:52:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. Yeah, but what are the choices? Run tasksel (y/n)? (frequently too coarse) Run dselect (y/n)? (we all know about this one :-) ) Do it by hand afterwards - somewhat inconvenient and daunting for a new user Yeah, I agree that dselect is awful (to be fair, it probably wasn't so bad when there were fewer packages to wade through). I have stopped using it, myself. I recommend using tasksel to rough out the system, then using apt-get to finish the job. The tasksel will give you a working system with the basics you need that you may not know by name. Then the apt-get will allow you to ask for everything you specifically know you want. The downside is that it may be a little hard to find the correct package names by what they do or what commands they include. I have only just recently learned that there are ways to query this on the command line (but they may only work for installed packages?). Anyway, myself, I make used of the packages search on the Debian website to make those determinations. Usually, you can just use apt-get to load stuff as you need it after that. And of course, once you get a collection of packages you like, you can use the dpkg --get-selections and dpkg --set-selections to save and retrieve your choices or replicate onto multiple computers. Try synaptic. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Friday 26 September 2003 5:31 pm, cr wrote: On Thursday 25 September 2003 03:24, Sebastian Kapfer wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:14 +0200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. One word: aptitude Thanks, I'll bear 'aptitude' in mind (though I tend to be lazy and use kpackage wherever possible), but dselect is the app written into the installer. aptitude is good for the console. But synaptic is the best if you are runnig X. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
Pigeon wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:52:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. Yeah, but what are the choices? Run tasksel (y/n)? (frequently too coarse) Run dselect (y/n)? (we all know about this one :-) ) Do it by hand afterwards - somewhat inconvenient and daunting for a new user ...and as cr says, the risk of premature termination and the lack of a 'back' option are big minuses. Though I hate to say it, the lack of 'back' options to correct a damnwrongbutton is one area where Debian tends to lose to M$. We all kit the wrong key sometimes. It makes very little sense to crituque the old installer at this point. if you had send me this critisizm five, or even three years ago, I would have fixed it then. As it is, I fixed it this year. There's still a chance to crituque the new one of course. See the docuemntation for the debian-installer project and do a test install. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;)it's only too easy to 'finish' with it prematurely**, at which point the installer asks 'Continue Y/n'with no 'Back' option to re-enter dselect.It's the combination of the two that's so unforgiving. Luckily this problem will be fixed in the next version of the installer. Which also lets you chose aptitude if you prefer it of course. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: dselect, was Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Friday 26 September 2003 10:29 am, Pigeon wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:52:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. Yeah, but what are the choices? Run tasksel (y/n)? (frequently too coarse) Run dselect (y/n)? (we all know about this one :-) ) Do it by hand afterwards - somewhat inconvenient and daunting for a new user Yeah, I agree that dselect is awful (to be fair, it probably wasn't so bad when there were fewer packages to wade through). I have stopped using it, myself. I recommend using tasksel to rough out the system, then using apt-get to finish the job. The tasksel will give you a working system with the basics you need that you may not know by name. Then the apt-get will allow you to ask for everything you specifically know you want. The downside is that it may be a little hard to find the correct package names by what they do or what commands they include. I have only just recently learned that there are ways to query this on the command line (but they may only work for installed packages?). Anyway, myself, I make used of the packages search on the Debian website to make those determinations. Usually, you can just use apt-get to load stuff as you need it after that. And of course, once you get a collection of packages you like, you can use the dpkg --get-selections and dpkg --set-selections to save and retrieve your choices or replicate onto multiple computers. HTH, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:14 +0200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. One word: aptitude -- Best Regards, | Wer Windows-Rechner ins Internet lsst, Sebastian | braucht nicht ber SWEN stnkern! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:30:07 +0200, Ron Johnson wrote: Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, Haven't they adopted APT already? Somehow I doubt they'll ever sacrifice rpm :-) -- Best Regards, | Wer Windows-Rechner ins Internet lsst, Sebastian | braucht nicht ber SWEN stnkern! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 07:19:10PM +1200, cr wrote: Just so long as RH apply their excellent installer to Debian;) Oh, dear god NO! RH's installer blows badly. Just wait for debian-installer to come out to replace boot-floppies or use Knoppix to install debian. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dAKBUzgNqloQMwcRAlXmAJ0dlRzqWpbnm3TB/jU4KsfM3HDCMQCfRaEx wNy6kFPNNyekBMxGiYMC0vA= =rZy8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 06:11:53PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. You're missing three issues that have not been resolved, nor will the be in the forseeable future: 1) Morons using dependancies against specific files. Gotta love having to create spaghetti filesystems just to install packages. 2) Fracturisation of the format. RH, mdk, SuSE, and god knows who else all use RPMs, none are terrably compatible with each other for various reasons. 3) Lack of standardized package names. You can have all the dependancies installed and RPM wouldn't know it. Yeah, you can force it, but who really wants to routinely force things and leave them to chance? - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQE/dAOmUzgNqloQMwcRAsoVAJ0YZtgTMsHcUGzSxNJIX56sjpda0QCXdkCa f/V7PDrVJ22heBmt8p9z/w== =6Cmm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 20:59, Colin Watson wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 07:19:10PM +1200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. If I ever have to face that Debian installer again I'll... I'll... dselect is not what people usually mean when they talk about the Debian installer ... I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;)it's only too easy to 'finish' with it prematurely**, at which point the installer asks 'Continue Y/n'with no 'Back' option to re-enter dselect.It's the combination of the two that's so unforgiving. ( ** The dselect package selection interface is confusing or even alarming to a new user. -man dselect :) I'd say dselect is probably okay for selecting a few apps.Working through an entire install list with it is a daunting task.As I said, next time (if there is a next time :) I'll just use tasksel, install what it selects, and then do the fine tuning afterwards with kpackage. cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 07:46:59PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: IMHO the lousy but my debian has apt-get install argumentation is out of date for quite some time. Not at all. See my prior post about this issue to see why. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dAPJUzgNqloQMwcRAipAAJ9JFfITALcclZ3mD2YGJrG38hfXQACgmaVw aZ3X982SXrQW/PkFUYanAgI= =ym8Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thursday 25 September 2003 03:24, Sebastian Kapfer wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:14 +0200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. One word: aptitude Thanks, I'll bear 'aptitude' in mind (though I tend to be lazy and use kpackage wherever possible), but dselect is the app written into the installer. dselect is actually not so bad on a one-app basis, it's trying to use it to select all the apps for an install where it rapidly gets old.;) cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;) No software is intuitive, it's all learned. The only intuitive interface is the nipple, the rest is in your head. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dAxMUzgNqloQMwcRAuMhAKCnCgkfm7SrVZCAYkgka44e9s4MrwCgnpmF BUYz/CfoY6eU+8SxFU7mj/0= =Gj9E -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 16:31, cr wrote: On Thursday 25 September 2003 03:24, Sebastian Kapfer wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:14 +0200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. One word: aptitude Thanks, I'll bear 'aptitude' in mind (though I tend to be lazy and use kpackage wherever possible), but dselect is the app written into the installer. dselect is actually not so bad on a one-app basis, it's trying to use it to select all the apps for an install where it rapidly gets old.;) Call me weird, but unless I'm only installing one or two packages (which I'll just use apt-get to do) I think dselect is the best tool for the job. It lets you see recommended and suggested packages while automatically showing you which dependencies need to be installed. It's also the only really intuitive package manager I've found. It took me about 2 hours of playing with it to understand it. I've tried aptitude and a few of the available GUI frontends (though I admit I've never tried kpackage) and even after 2 hours I just can't get the hang of 'em. Though I know of QUITE a few people who absolutely swear by aptitude. Personally, I couldn't be happier with dselect. :) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On (27/09/03 08:26), cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;)it's only too easy to 'finish' with it prematurely**, at which point the installer asks 'Continue Y/n'with no 'Back' option to re-enter dselect.It's the combination of the two that's so unforgiving. ( ** The dselect package selection interface is confusing or even alarming to a new user. -man dselect :) I'd say dselect is probably okay for selecting a few apps.Working through an entire install list with it is a daunting task.As I said, next time (if there is a next time :) I'll just use tasksel, install what it selects, and then do the fine tuning afterwards with kpackage. FWIW - I use dselect exclusively (except for the very occasional apt get etc.). I did find it very confusing at first and when installing and upgrading KDE3.1. I went around in circles a few times but overall it is great for understanding what packages are available, what they do and dealing with dependencies. I will move to aptitude at some point but having become familiar with dselect I am comfortable with it. That said as a newbie, I found it difficult;) Regards Clive -- http://www.clivemenzies.co.uk strategies for business -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 04:52, Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: [snip] No software is intuitive, it's all learned. The only intuitive interface is the nipple, the rest is in your head. Bzzzt. Even newborns must be given a hint, i.e. taught to latch. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Whatever may be the moral ambiguities of the so-called demoratic nations and however serious may be their failure to conform perfectly to their democratic ideals, it is sheer moral perversity to equate the inconsistencies of a democratic civilization with the brutalities which modern tyrannical states practice. Reinhold Nieburhr, ca. 1940 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 05:03, Alex Malinovich wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 16:31, cr wrote: On Thursday 25 September 2003 03:24, Sebastian Kapfer wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:14 +0200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. One word: aptitude Thanks, I'll bear 'aptitude' in mind (though I tend to be lazy and use kpackage wherever possible), but dselect is the app written into the installer. dselect is actually not so bad on a one-app basis, it's trying to use it to select all the apps for an install where it rapidly gets old.;) Call me weird, but unless I'm only installing one or two packages (which I'll just use apt-get to do) I think dselect is the best tool for the job. It lets you see recommended and suggested packages while automatically showing you which dependencies need to be installed. It's also the only really intuitive package manager I've found. It took me about 2 hours of playing with it to understand it. I've tried aptitude and a few of the available GUI frontends (though I admit I've never tried kpackage) and even after 2 hours I just can't get the hang of 'em. Though I know of QUITE a few people who absolutely swear by aptitude. Personally, I couldn't be happier with dselect. :) apt-get and aptitude also show 'suggests' and 'recommends' packages. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Why should we not accept all in favor of woman suffrage to our platform and association even though they be rabid pro-slavery Democrats. Susan B. Anthony, _History_of_Woman_Suffrage_ http://www.ifeminists.com/introduction/essays/introduction.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:15:18AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 06:11:53PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. You're missing three issues that have not been resolved, nor will the be in the forseeable future: 1) Morons using dependancies against specific files. Gotta love having to create spaghetti filesystems just to install packages. 2) Fracturisation of the format. RH, mdk, SuSE, and god knows who else all use RPMs, none are terrably compatible with each other for various reasons. 3) Lack of standardized package names. You can have all the dependancies installed and RPM wouldn't know it. Yeah, you can force it, but who really wants to routinely force things and leave them to chance? All your complains are right but they have _nothing_ to do witch apt-get! Nor have they (with exception of point 1) something to do with rpm. Please stand by the facts, point one is partly a problem of rpm and partly RH. Afaik Conectiva has no file depends. Point 2 and 3 are a cordination and standarisation issue and _not_ a problem of rpm or apt. Sven -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 04:21:49PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: All your complains are right but they have _nothing_ to do witch apt-get! Nor have they (with exception of point 1) something to do with rpm. Actually, they do. Lack of standardised package names and mutual incompatability of RPMs between between distros. Notice how Mandrake RPMs aren't Red Hat RPMs aren't SuSE RPMs. Notice how Debian debs are Knoppix debs are Stormix debs are third party debs. Please stand by the facts, point one is partly a problem of rpm and partly RH. Afaik Conectiva has no file depends. No, but generic RPMs (as found on rpmfind.net) frequently do, and that is a problem. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dFS4UzgNqloQMwcRAhJjAJ9lXAP0IlC1ONbWXwq5jJdzs3V5TACglWPl v0Z8zynSXOdqhSuySVy9Iqo= =AKUO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 06:43, Ron Johnson wrote: --snip-- Call me weird, but unless I'm only installing one or two packages (which I'll just use apt-get to do) I think dselect is the best tool for the job. It lets you see recommended and suggested packages while automatically showing you which dependencies need to be installed. It's also the only really intuitive package manager I've found. It took me about 2 hours of playing with it to understand it. I've tried aptitude and a few of the available GUI frontends (though I admit I've never tried kpackage) and even after 2 hours I just can't get the hang of 'em. Though I know of QUITE a few people who absolutely swear by aptitude. Personally, I couldn't be happier with dselect. :) apt-get and aptitude also show 'suggests' and 'recommends' packages. I believe that apt-get only recently started showing suggests and recommends. I know that when I first started using Debian a couple of years ago, apt-get would just go about its business without bothering you with any real questions or suggestions. And my comments about dselect were not meant to be exclusive of other package managers. Every good package manager will show you suggests and recommends, I just tend to prefer the way that dselect does it for my own personal use. -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 02:52:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. Yeah, but what are the choices? Run tasksel (y/n)? (frequently too coarse) Run dselect (y/n)? (we all know about this one :-) ) Do it by hand afterwards - somewhat inconvenient and daunting for a new user ...and as cr says, the risk of premature termination and the lack of a 'back' option are big minuses. Though I hate to say it, the lack of 'back' options to correct a damnwrongbutton is one area where Debian tends to lose to M$. We all kit the wrong key sometimes. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;) No software is intuitive, it's all learned. The only intuitive interface is the nipple, the rest is in your head. Yeah, but trying to cope with dselect's interface for the first time with nothing but its own somewhat terse help screens for assistance is a well-worn rant. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 13:18, Alex Malinovich wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 06:43, Ron Johnson wrote: --snip-- Call me weird, but unless I'm only installing one or two packages (which I'll just use apt-get to do) I think dselect is the best tool for the job. It lets you see recommended and suggested packages while automatically showing you which dependencies need to be installed. It's also the only really intuitive package manager I've found. It took me about 2 hours of playing with it to understand it. I've tried aptitude and a few of the available GUI frontends (though I admit I've never tried kpackage) and even after 2 hours I just can't get the hang of 'em. Though I know of QUITE a few people who absolutely swear by aptitude. Personally, I couldn't be happier with dselect. :) apt-get and aptitude also show 'suggests' and 'recommends' packages. I believe that apt-get only recently started showing suggests and recommends. I know that when I first started using Debian a couple of years ago, apt-get would just go about its business without bothering you with any real questions or suggestions. Yes, you're right. It might be in sarge now, but did see it when I installed the sid version a month or so ago. And my comments about dselect were not meant to be exclusive of other package managers. Every good package manager will show you suggests and recommends, I just tend to prefer the way that dselect does it for my own personal use. Hey, understandable. I was just passing on more info -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA The purpose of the military isn't to pay your college tuition or give you a little extra income; it's to kill people and break things. Surprisingly, not everyone understands that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Friday 26 September 2003 21:52, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:26:32AM +1200, cr wrote: I appreciate that dselect is only part of the install process, albeit the largest part timewise if one uses it. You don't have to, though. What makes it frustrating is that, while working through the huge list of apps in dselect (which isn't the most intuitive piece of software ever written ;) No software is intuitive, it's all learned. The only intuitive interface is the nipple, the rest is in your head. ... but some is more intuitive than others. I don't want to get sidetracked into a debate about 'intuitive' but I could, in the space of a few minutes, make a list of programs which are easy to use and others (which do the same thing) which are hard to use. I'll spare the list this digression though.;) cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Friday 26 September 2003 22:03, Alex Malinovich wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 16:31, cr wrote: (snip) dselect is actually not so bad on a one-app basis, it's trying to use it to select all the apps for an install where it rapidly gets old.;) Call me weird, but unless I'm only installing one or two packages (which I'll just use apt-get to do) I think dselect is the best tool for the job. It lets you see recommended and suggested packages while automatically showing you which dependencies need to be installed. It's also the only really intuitive package manager I've found. It took me about 2 hours of playing with it to understand it. With respect, if it takes a couple of hours to understand, I wouldn't call that 'intuitive'. And the other thing is, I guess, that first encountering it during the Debian install process (and having to restart the whole process if you make a mistake) is the worst possible time to get to know any piece of software. But I won't belabour the point any further. cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 08:01:12AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 04:21:49PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: All your complains are right but they have _nothing_ to do witch apt-get! Nor have they (with exception of point 1) something to do with rpm. Actually, they do. Lack of standardised package names and mutual incompatability of RPMs between between distros. Notice how Mandrake RPMs aren't Red Hat RPMs aren't SuSE RPMs. Notice how Debian debs are Knoppix debs are Stormix debs are third party debs. Installing third-party .debs on a Debian system has been known to cause serious problems (in certain cases, obviously far from all). Those who were around on debian-devel in 2000 or so will probably remember a number of complications caused by Helix GNOME packages, and people backporting large numbers of packages from unstable to stable can tell you about the exciting incompatibilities they've run into. In practice third parties creating Debian packages are practically obliged to make them compatible with Debian or they'll run into problems, and even then they can have subtle dependency issues. I don't think this is the big win over RPMs that you're making it out to be. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 09:52:35PM -0500, Terry Hancock wrote: I don't think people should get paranoid about Red Hat as if it were competing with Debian for some critical resource. Mostly for two reasons: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. 2) Red Hat realises this and doesn't support it's use. You want apt? JHD (Just Hit Debian). - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/csa0UzgNqloQMwcRAtOKAJ0ZPaZU73sufZRnbSVkLIOzrni1EQCcCnwl bFNDoI7FQTOwkYAYVRY1y+I= =x4x8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 03:43:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 09:52:35PM -0500, Terry Hancock wrote: I don't think people should get paranoid about Red Hat as if it were competing with Debian for some critical resource. Mostly for two reasons: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. Sven -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 11:11, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 03:43:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 09:52:35PM -0500, Terry Hancock wrote: I don't think people should get paranoid about Red Hat as if it were competing with Debian for some critical resource. Mostly for two reasons: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. Does it also have Packages.gz? I.e., the functionality of apt-cache? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA I have created a government of whirled peas... Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, CNN, Larry King Live -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 12:05:30PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 11:11, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 03:43:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 09:52:35PM -0500, Terry Hancock wrote: I don't think people should get paranoid about Red Hat as if it were competing with Debian for some critical resource. Mostly for two reasons: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. Does it also have Packages.gz? I.e., the functionality of apt-cache? There are still bugs in this port but in generall it's useable. synaptic works, a bunch of apt-* tools are ported and apt-rpm itself has a few special features like the phyton bindings, lua scripting support and the apt-shell. IMHO the lousy but my debian has apt-get install argumentation is out of date for quite some time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] sven]$ apt-cache search ^apt* [...] apt-listchanges - Display new changelog entries from RPM packages apticron - apticron upgrade notify tool apt - Debian's Advanced Packaging Tool with RPM support apt-devel - Development files and documentation for APT's libapt-pkg apt4rpm - Create an APT repository [EMAIL PROTECTED] sven]$ cat /etc/redhat-release Red Hat Linux release 7.3 (Valhalla) without further comments :) Sven -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 12:46, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 12:05:30PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 11:11, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 03:43:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 09:52:35PM -0500, Terry Hancock wrote: I don't think people should get paranoid about Red Hat as if it were competing with Debian for some critical resource. Mostly for two reasons: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. Does it also have Packages.gz? I.e., the functionality of apt-cache? There are still bugs in this port but in generall it's useable. synaptic works, a bunch of apt-* tools are ported and apt-rpm itself has a few special features like the phyton bindings, lua scripting support and the apt-shell. IMHO the lousy but my debian has apt-get install argumentation is out of date for quite some time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] sven]$ apt-cache search ^apt* [...] apt-listchanges - Display new changelog entries from RPM packages apticron - apticron upgrade notify tool apt - Debian's Advanced Packaging Tool with RPM support apt-devel - Development files and documentation for APT's libapt-pkg apt4rpm - Create an APT repository [EMAIL PROTECTED] sven]$ cat /etc/redhat-release Red Hat Linux release 7.3 (Valhalla) without further comments :) I'd be interested to see what percentage of users use apt4rpm, and if 3rd parties also organize their RPMs, so, like marrilat.fr on our side, they could be added to the RPM sources.list. Also, how complete, and up-to-date are RPM apt repositories? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, other than that they trained in these camps? 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 men arrested near Buffalo NY -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 06:11:53PM +0200, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 03:43:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: 1) apt-rpm is a piece of shit compared to apt-get due to RPM stupidity. Aehm the only difference I can find from user standpoint is that apt-rpm is slower cause auf the rpmlib. And sometimes you have to maunally remove a lock file, or it just won't work. And it won't tell you why it's not working (it stalls, and you have to guess what's going on). J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 01:38:30PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Hi, I think in generall this topic is a little bit off topic here. If you feel that it doesn't belong here please write a PM. I'd be interested to see what percentage of users use apt4rpm, and Well apt4rpm != apt-rpm. apt4rpm [1] is a suit of scripts to manage your reps for apt-rpm.[2] Well I think there are quite a few people out using apt-rpm on RH but it's still a minority but the community is growing since I started using it about 2 years ago. On the other hand all Conectiva Linux users have apt-rpm installed cause Conectiva ported it a long time ago und suggest to use apt-rpm to install their updates/upgrades. if 3rd parties also organize their RPMs, so, like marrilat.fr on our side, they could be added to the RPM sources.list. Jupp we're doing this aswell. Matthias Saou has his famous freshrpms.net (he is or was linked from the redhat website). I've build up a small rep[3] at the company where I did my apprenticeship with a focus on RedHat 7.3. I will stop this rep at the end of this year cause RH drops their sec support for RH 7.3 then and I'm not using RH anymore cause I finished my apprenticeship in june this year. ftp.gwdg.de has a very large archiv with packages from various sources for SuSE. Also, how complete, and up-to-date are RPM apt repositories? Well mine is a little bit out of date now cause I'm going to school now as my new fulltime job. When I was paid for that work it was always filled with the recent software we needed in the office. freshrpms.net is always fresh ;) Sven [1] http://apt4rpm.sf.net [2] https://moin.conectiva.com.br/AptRpm [3] http://sven.stormbind.net/aptrpm/ and the rep http://wrack.telelev.net -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
Alex Malinovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone remember gcc 2.96? I remember there were some bugs, they were fixed pretty early in the cycle, and most of the whining was about code that would have had the exact same problems in gcc 3.0 when it was released. So people who didn't make the changes for 2.96 had to make the same ones for 3.0. (There was also the fact that the C++ ABI was incompatible, but again, that's no different from the g++ 3.x releases) -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 07:19:10PM +1200, cr wrote: ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. If I ever have to face that Debian installer again I'll... I'll... dselect is not what people usually mean when they talk about the Debian installer ... -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 11:03, Paul E Condon wrote: RedHat's business model is moving toward support services for enterprises and away from sale of boxed sets of CDs. I don't think it makes much sense for them to continue work on the RedHat Linux distribution, but I can see why they might want to pretend to do so. Their corporate customers probably wouldn't notice if RedHat started loading Debian onto the corporate computers, so long as Red Hat, the company, continued to provide support. I think they would save themselves a lot of head aches if they did move to Debian. This collective support of the RedHat distribution, without selling CDs looks to me like Debian done badly. It will wither away, and the people will drift into the Debian community. Just so long as RH apply their excellent installer to Debian;) cr ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. If I ever have to face that Debian installer again I'll... I'll... ... just let it do what it bloody well wants to and sort it all out later with Kpackage, I think.:( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 12:20 am, Ron Johnson wrote: That would be a possible theory if Debian RH both use the same package manager. Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, it could be an enterprise version of Libranet, and, since it charges for updates to multiple systems (the RH Network), it would be a lot like Lindows! They will not admit errors or move into deb, cause this would be like admitting that all their previous work is inferior to other, besides apt works perfectly well with rpms. Many people use RH so their community have the critical mass to make a lot of packages and generate big apt-rpm repositories, that fact combined with their installer and config tools may in time do the RHL project more popular than the Debian project, that would be a shame but I think it is inevitable unless debian become more user friendly in short time. Oh yes, there is libranet but most people haven't even heard about them, not to mention they won't let you download their last CDs. Alfredo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 11:20:01PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 20:28, Terry Hancock wrote: It occurs to me that that might very well be a near-ideal and possibly planned outcome. If I were running Red Hat, I would probably think so. No need to scent conspiracy theories -- it's not a bad approach to transition: gives plenty of time for the two to grow towards a standard (e.g. the LSB stuff), and then make the transition smooth for the end user. That would be a possible theory if Debian RH both use the same package manager. Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, it could be an enterprise version of Libranet, and, since it charges for updates to multiple systems (the RH Network), it would be a lot like Lindows! Well you're talking about the use of apt, Fedora used apt-rpm for package distribution. I don't know what they're doing now but I guess they'll switch to RHN cause that's what the fedora.redhat.com website says. A bad move to a closed distribution model IMHO. Sven -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 07:19:10PM +1200, cr wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 11:03, Paul E Condon wrote: Hi, I think they would save themselves a lot of head aches if they did move to Debian. This collective support of the RedHat distribution, without selling CDs looks to me like Debian done badly. It will wither away, and the people will drift into the Debian community. Just so long as RH apply their excellent installer to Debian;) hrhr, well anaconda/kudzu might be quite good but I've no experience using it on the uhm 10 other arches Debian supports. Talking about X based installers with hardware detection I would prefer the installer from Conectiva Linux (the one that is not based on UL). They're using apt-rpm so a port to the normal Debian apt port should be relativly easy. But hey it hasn't been done so far so their seems to be no pressure or need to do it. cr ... having just recovered from another screaming encounter with dselect. If I ever have to face that Debian installer again I'll... I'll... well just use tasksel :) Sven -- http://www.comboguano.de http://sven.linux-ist-pleite.de I'm root, if you see me laughing you better have a backup! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
..this too makes a neat installer: http://damnsmalllinux.org/ -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 10:01, Sven Hoexter wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 11:20:01PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 20:28, Terry Hancock wrote: It occurs to me that that might very well be a near-ideal and possibly planned outcome. If I were running Red Hat, I would probably think so. No need to scent conspiracy theories -- it's not a bad approach to transition: gives plenty of time for the two to grow towards a standard (e.g. the LSB stuff), and then make the transition smooth for the end user. That would be a possible theory if Debian RH both use the same package manager. Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, it could be an enterprise version of Libranet, and, since it charges for updates to multiple systems (the RH Network), it would be a lot like Lindows! Well you're talking about the use of apt, Fedora used apt-rpm for package distribution. I don't know what they're doing now but I guess they'll switch to RHN cause that's what the fedora.redhat.com website says. A bad move to a closed distribution model IMHO. Sounds like Lindows... Sven So, *you* are the cause of the latest virus! -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time. Bertrand Meyer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 09:38, Alfredo Valles wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 12:20 am, Ron Johnson wrote: That would be a possible theory if Debian RH both use the same package manager. Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, it could be an enterprise version of Libranet, and, since it charges for updates to multiple systems (the RH Network), it would be a lot like Lindows! They will not admit errors or move into deb, cause this would be like admitting that all their previous work is inferior to other, besides apt works perfectly well with rpms. Only if the repositories are chock full of packages. Many people use RH so their community have the critical mass to make a lot of packages and generate big apt-rpm repositories, that fact combined with their installer and config tools may in time do the RHL project more popular than the Debian project, that would be a shame but I think it is inevitable unless debian become more user friendly in short time. We'll have to see. You could be right. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Causation does NOT equal correlation -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
Hi all. Seems to me that for the first time debian is going to have real competition in its own field. Red Hat announced that they will join with fedora community and produce the Red Hat Linux Project. So they will have almost the same model of development that debian. Isn't that amazing for a company? http://www.fedora.us/ http://fedora.redhat.com/ http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ Alfredo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:55:47PM -0400, Alfredo Valles wrote: Hi all. Seems to me that for the first time debian is going to have real competition in its own field. Red Hat announced that they will join with fedora community and produce the Red Hat Linux Project. So they will have almost the same model of development that debian. Isn't that amazing for a company? http://www.fedora.us/ http://fedora.redhat.com/ http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ Alfredo The phrase You can't serve two masters comes to mind. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:55:47PM -0400, Alfredo Valles wrote: Hi all. Seems to me that for the first time debian is going to have real competition in its own field. Red Hat announced that they will join with fedora community and produce the Red Hat Linux Project. So they will have almost the same model of development that debian. Isn't that amazing for a company? I would be a lot more amazed if they finally came out and admitted that they're not always doing good things for the community and that perhaps they should work WITH a project that's already in place, such as, oh... say... DEBIAN! :) As much as I like RH for advancing GNU/Linux in general, I think some of their business decisions aren't the greatest. Not to mention some of their compatibility issues. Does anyone remember gcc 2.96? Rather than trying to do what Debian has been doing for years, I'd much rather see them JOIN with Debian to further promote community-supported distros. -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:51:36 -0500 Alex Malinovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:55:47PM -0400, Alfredo Valles wrote: Hi all. Seems to me that for the first time debian is going to have real competition in its own field. Red Hat announced that they will join with fedora community and produce the Red Hat Linux Project. So they will have almost the same model of development that debian. Isn't that amazing for a company? I would be a lot more amazed if they finally came out and admitted that they're not always doing good things for the community and that perhaps they should work WITH a project that's already in place, such as, oh... say... DEBIAN! :) As much as I like RH for advancing GNU/Linux in general, I think some of their business decisions aren't the greatest. Not to mention some of their compatibility issues. Does anyone remember gcc 2.96? Rather than trying to do what Debian has been doing for years, I'd much rather see them JOIN with Debian to further promote community-supported distros. -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 Lawrence Lessig would have a lot to do with this move. He appreciates the innovative power of the collective common community. I notice though, on attempting to provide input into the 'Creative Commons' educational licencing concept, and being locked out because I'm not an educator, that the inclination is more towards gaining from that innovative power, than contributing to it. Which is of course, where the community gets its' power from. So, no, I don't think that a RedHat merger with Debian would be a good move just yet. Their stand against SCO, and etc., would be motivated by a desire to protect their best interests first, and the communities' second, if that. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:49:12AM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:51:36 -0500 Alex Malinovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 03:55:47PM -0400, Alfredo Valles wrote: Hi all. Seems to me that for the first time debian is going to have real competition in its own field. Red Hat announced that they will join with fedora community and produce the Red Hat Linux Project. So they will have almost the same model of development that debian. Isn't that amazing for a company? I would be a lot more amazed if they finally came out and admitted that they're not always doing good things for the community and that perhaps they should work WITH a project that's already in place, such as, oh... say... DEBIAN! :) As much as I like RH for advancing GNU/Linux in general, I think some of their business decisions aren't the greatest. Not to mention some of their compatibility issues. Does anyone remember gcc 2.96? I started using Linux with a RH boxed set. I left and moved to Debian because of gcc 2.96. Also, because of much more helpful email list. Once I made the transistion, I never looked back. Maybe all distributions were improving rapidly then, but my strong impression was that Debian gave me *much* more control over my computer. Lawrence Lessig would have a lot to do with this move. He appreciates the innovative power of the collective common community. I notice though, on attempting to provide input into the 'Creative Commons' educational licencing concept, and being locked out because I'm not an educator, that the inclination is more towards gaining from that innovative power, than contributing to it. Which is of course, where the community gets its' power from. So, no, I don't think that a RedHat merger with Debian would be a good move just yet. Their stand against SCO, and etc., would be motivated by a desire to protect their best interests first, and the communities' second, if that. RedHat's business model is moving toward support services for enterprises and away from sale of boxed sets of CDs. I don't think it makes much sense for them to continue work on the RedHat Linux distribution, but I can see why they might want to pretend to do so. Their corporate customers probably wouldn't notice if RedHat started loading Debian onto the corporate computers, so long as Red Hat, the company, continued to provide support. I think they would save themselves a lot of head aches if they did move to Debian. This collective support of the RedHat distribution, without selling CDs looks to me like Debian done badly. It will wither away, and the people will drift into the Debian community. Just my $.02 worth. -- Paul E Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tuesday 23 September 2003 06:03 pm, Paul E Condon wrote: RedHat's business model is moving toward support services for enterprises and away from sale of boxed sets of CDs. I don't think it makes much sense for them to continue work on the RedHat Linux distribution, but I can see why they might want to pretend to do so. Their corporate customers probably wouldn't notice if RedHat started loading Debian onto the corporate computers, so long as Red Hat, the company, continued to provide support. I think they would save themselves a lot of head aches if they did move to Debian. This collective support of the RedHat distribution, without selling CDs looks to me like Debian done badly. It will wither away, and the people will drift into the Debian community. It occurs to me that that might very well be a near-ideal and possibly planned outcome. If I were running Red Hat, I would probably think so. No need to scent conspiracy theories -- it's not a bad approach to transition: gives plenty of time for the two to grow towards a standard (e.g. the LSB stuff), and then make the transition smooth for the end user. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: RH and Debian brothers now?
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 20:28, Terry Hancock wrote: On Tuesday 23 September 2003 06:03 pm, Paul E Condon wrote: RedHat's business model is moving toward support services for enterprises and away from sale of boxed sets of CDs. I don't think it makes much sense for them to continue work on the RedHat Linux distribution, but I can see why they might want to pretend to do so. Their corporate customers probably wouldn't notice if RedHat started loading Debian onto the corporate computers, so long as Red Hat, the company, continued to provide support. I think they would save themselves a lot of head aches if they did move to Debian. This collective support of the RedHat distribution, without selling CDs looks to me like Debian done badly. It will wither away, and the people will drift into the Debian community. It occurs to me that that might very well be a near-ideal and possibly planned outcome. If I were running Red Hat, I would probably think so. No need to scent conspiracy theories -- it's not a bad approach to transition: gives plenty of time for the two to grow towards a standard (e.g. the LSB stuff), and then make the transition smooth for the end user. That would be a possible theory if Debian RH both use the same package manager. Now, if RH wants to admit to the error in it's ways and move to dpkg/apt/deb, it could be an enterprise version of Libranet, and, since it charges for updates to multiple systems (the RH Network), it would be a lot like Lindows! -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA I have created a government of whirled peas... Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, CNN, Larry King Live -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
